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View Full Version : Do ABA championships count as NBA history?



WaDe03
04-12-2017, 12:58 PM
I'm interested to hear all thoughts and arguments for and against this.

I'm also interested in if you say yes, if you are a Nets or Pacer fan.

When you're talking about NBA teams championships such as the Celtics having 17 or however many they have, are you saying the Nets have 2 or are you giving the Pacers their 3 from the ABA, etc?

When you discuss Dr. Js all time rank are you using his championships from a weak ABA league to boost his standing?

Obviously they're 2 different leagues so NBA history might not be the best way to put it but do they still count for anything in your opinion?

JLynn943
04-12-2017, 01:33 PM
I mean, there were many players (including some all-timers) and teams in the ABA that competed for actual championships, so I don't know why you'd completely ignore them. Even if you believe the ABA was weaker (which is debatable at the very least since the ABA teams won more interleague games against NBA teams than vice versa), would you not then expect the best that played in it to get championships? How you value it versus an NBA championship is certainly up for debate, but I still count it as part of NBA history. I mean, the teams that joined were treated as expansion teams, but they were still the same team, and many of the players had great success in the NBA after joining.

ewing
04-12-2017, 02:56 PM
Yes unless you went to Marquette. Then you do not count

Big Zo
04-12-2017, 03:01 PM
Meh. To me the NBA basically started in 1980 so I guess not.

Quinnsanity
04-12-2017, 03:49 PM
Meh. To me the NBA basically started in 1980 so I guess not.

This. The pre-merger and post-merger NBA are completely different entities.

People really underrate just how dysfunctional the ABA was. They assume that if it was good enough to force a merger then it must have been a highly profitable league with tons of fans. That's absolutely not the case. Indiana was the only perpetually successful ABA team. Two separate teams dissolved in the middle of the league's final season. Denver and San Antonio were generally stable and Kentucky had so much talent that they remained relevant, but it was a few star players and Indiana's consistent dominance that made the ABA remotely viable. For God's sake, Virginia had to sell BOTH Julius Erving and George Gervin (and Swen Nater, if you like old role players) to remain solvent. The ABA made up rules on the fly (go read up on their draft procedures, for example), they negotiated with players as a league and let players pick their teams, made really bizarre business decisions just to hurt the NBA (like stealing their best refs) and just generally didn't really know what they were doing. It was much more of an entertainment product than a competitive one. It was kind of the wild west of basketball.

The NBA was hardly the juggernaut it is now in the 70's, and there's a reason people consistently refer to it as the game's weakest decade, but teams were generally pretty stable and the league was a known commodity. There were actual rules and championships meant something other than "welp we were the one team that could make payroll every week this season." ABA history is a fun little sideshow, and if teams want to put banners up, that's fine. But no, championships won in the ABA do not count as championships won in the NBA do.

And as an aside, I don't consider championships won before a team reached its final destination to count either. The Lakers shouldn't count their Minnesota titles, the Kings shouldn't count the 1951 Rochester Royals and the Hawks shouldn't count the 1958 St. Louis championship. The Thunder don't take credit for Seattle's title. It's dumb that these other teams think that those championships count.

TheMightyHumph
04-12-2017, 04:13 PM
This. The pre-merger and post-merger NBA are completely different entities.

People really underrate just how dysfunctional the ABA was. They assume that if it was good enough to force a merger then it must have been a highly profitable league with tons of fans. That's absolutely not the case. Indiana was the only perpetually successful ABA team. Two separate teams dissolved in the middle of the league's final season. Denver and San Antonio were generally stable and Kentucky had so much talent that they remained relevant, but it was a few star players and Indiana's consistent dominance that made the ABA remotely viable. For God's sake, Virginia had to sell BOTH Julius Erving and George Gervin (and Swen Nater, if you like old role players) to remain solvent. The ABA made up rules on the fly (go read up on their draft procedures, for example), they negotiated with players as a league and let players pick their teams, made really bizarre business decisions just to hurt the NBA (like stealing their best refs) and just generally didn't really know what they were doing. It was much more of an entertainment product than a competitive one. It was kind of the wild west of basketball.

The NBA was hardly the juggernaut it is now in the 70's, and there's a reason people consistently refer to it as the game's weakest decade, but teams were generally pretty stable and the league was a known commodity. There were actual rules and championships meant something other than "welp we were the one team that could make payroll every week this season." ABA history is a fun little sideshow, and if teams want to put banners up, that's fine. But no, championships won in the ABA do not count as championships won in the NBA do.

And as an aside, I don't consider championships won before a team reached its final destination to count either. The Lakers shouldn't count their Minnesota titles, the Kings shouldn't count the 1951 Rochester Royals and the Hawks shouldn't count the 1958 St. Louis championship. The Thunder don't take credit for Seattle's title. It's dumb that these other teams think that those championships count.

Man, the ABA. That was basketball.

WaDe03
04-12-2017, 04:45 PM
Yes unless you went to Marquette. Then you do not count

Does anything related to the Knicks count?

Chronz
04-12-2017, 07:11 PM
Alil more relevant than spouting off division titles when we had 6 divisions



This. The pre-merger and post-merger NBA are completely different entities.

People really underrate just how dysfunctional the ABA was. They assume that if it was good enough to force a merger then it must have been a highly profitable league with tons of fans. That's absolutely not the case. Indiana was the only perpetually successful ABA team. Two separate teams dissolved in the middle of the league's final season. Denver and San Antonio were generally stable and Kentucky had so much talent that they remained relevant, but it was a few star players and Indiana's consistent dominance that made the ABA remotely viable. For God's sake, Virginia had to sell BOTH Julius Erving and George Gervin (and Swen Nater, if you like old role players) to remain solvent. The ABA made up rules on the fly (go read up on their draft procedures, for example), they negotiated with players as a league and let players pick their teams, made really bizarre business decisions just to hurt the NBA (like stealing their best refs) and just generally didn't really know what they were doing. It was much more of an entertainment product than a competitive one. It was kind of the wild west of basketball.

The NBA was hardly the juggernaut it is now in the 70's, and there's a reason people consistently refer to it as the game's weakest decade, but teams were generally pretty stable and the league was a known commodity. There were actual rules and championships meant something other than "welp we were the one team that could make payroll every week this season." ABA history is a fun little sideshow, and if teams want to put banners up, that's fine. But no, championships won in the ABA do not count as championships won in the NBA do.

And as an aside, I don't consider championships won before a team reached its final destination to count either. The Lakers shouldn't count their Minnesota titles, the Kings shouldn't count the 1951 Rochester Royals and the Hawks shouldn't count the 1958 St. Louis championship. The Thunder don't take credit for Seattle's title. It's dumb that these other teams think that those championships count.

Great post as usual but okc didn't take credit because Seattle secured the rights. Funny enough i brought this up to a laker buddy when he showed me the hype vid for Minnesotas new jerseys.

Quinnsanity
04-12-2017, 07:28 PM
Great post as usual but okc didn't take credit because Seattle secured the rights. Funny enough i brought this up to a laker buddy when he showed me the hype vid for Minnesotas new jerseys.

Right, but I never got the sense as that was happening that OKC particularly wanted the Seattle history in that process anyway. They seemed to want a totally fresh start. Like I've never seen the Thunder honor Durant for being Rookie of the Year, likely because it was done in Seattle. They seemed to want to disassociate, and I wish other teams had that desire.

In general though, I sort of wish some of the **** that happened in the ABA could happen now just to see the reactions on Twitter and on here. Like one year, the Pacers wanted to secure the draft rights to a college player named Rick Mount. So they just called up all the other teams and decided to have a draft. Here's a direct quote from Loose Balls about it:

"The ABA loved to hold drafts for anything, because it was a good excuse for everyone to go to New York and then go drinking at '21' afterwards. So they called a meeting and we had a draft. We were the defending ABA champs, yet we got the first pick in the draft, which made no sense. But we got the first pick because we were the ones who wanted the draft—that was ABA logic."

Imagine if the Cavs decided they wanted Lonzo Ball and just called a draft in the middle of the season and got to pick him because they were the ones who wanted the draft in the first place. That's ****ing insane. The funniest part about that story is that the Pacers did draft Mount, but since they only got the first pick because they called the draft, no one knew who picked second so they all fought over who got Pete Maravich. Anyone could've just called another draft the next night and gotten him because they were the ones who called it in the first place. The ABA was ****ing hilarious.

flea
04-12-2017, 07:43 PM
^ To be fair the NBA has plenty of kangaroo court legacies in its past - even recent past. Have most posters already forgotten that it was exposed as being rigged just about 10 years ago? Moreover I don't know a single thinking individual who believes the draft lottery is on the up and up. NBA has always had a reputation as something closer to WWF than the MLB, for instance.

Now that's not to say MLB and the NFL haven't been dirty. A World Series was rigged and the most successful franchise currently in the NFL are known cheaters. But neither of those leagues could you honestly accuse of being little more than a gambling front.

MJNetsIsles
04-12-2017, 07:45 PM
^ To be fair the NBA has plenty of kangaroo court legacies in its past - even recent past. Have most posters already forgotten that it was exposed as being rigged just about 10 years ago? Moreover I don't know a single thinking individual who believes the draft lottery is on the up and up. NBA has always had a reputation as something closer to WWF than the MLB, for instance.

Now that's not to say MLB and the NFL haven't been dirty. A World Series was rigged and the most successful franchise currently in the NFL are known cheaters. But neither of those leagues could you honestly accuse of being little more than a gambling front.

Very well said.

europagnpilgrim
04-12-2017, 08:41 PM
I'm interested to hear all thoughts and arguments for and against this.

I'm also interested in if you say yes, if you are a Nets or Pacer fan.

When you're talking about NBA teams championships such as the Celtics having 17 or however many they have, are you saying the Nets have 2 or are you giving the Pacers their 3 from the ABA, etc?

When you discuss Dr. Js all time rank are you using his championships from a weak ABA league to boost his standing?

Obviously they're 2 different leagues so NBA history might not be the best way to put it but do they still count for anything in your opinion?

Did the weak nba want to merge with the weak ABA? does that make it double weak?

when the so called best biggest want to merge I feel like they knew that weak ABA was what people wanted to see and they had a nice crop of players who were entertaining, and greed also played a major role as well

its like saying the Negro league of baseball was weak when that is the furthest thing from the truth, the nba merged with the ABA because they had some of the best talent over there and were a minor threat to revenue, what I am saying may not be true its just my 2 cents on it from the outside looking in, and I think you should count titles/accolades from both sides since they merged as one, like a marriage for life type deal, both sides won

its really no different than the LA Lakers claiming the titles that were won in Minny, 5 titles that never stayed with that franchise but I count'em for Minny so to me the Lakers have a total of 11 banners, only diff is the Lakers team name relocated(merged) to Cali/West coast while already being the in NBA

Quinnsanity
04-12-2017, 09:05 PM
^ To be fair the NBA has plenty of kangaroo court legacies in its past - even recent past. Have most posters already forgotten that it was exposed as being rigged just about 10 years ago? Moreover I don't know a single thinking individual who believes the draft lottery is on the up and up. NBA has always had a reputation as something closer to WWF than the MLB, for instance.

Now that's not to say MLB and the NFL haven't been dirty. A World Series was rigged and the most successful franchise currently in the NFL are known cheaters. But neither of those leagues could you honestly accuse of being little more than a gambling front.

You know it would be virtually impossible to rig the lottery nowadays right? Every team sends representatives into the room, there are several media members who see it happen, the lottery is not rigged. Same goes for ref rigging. Do you know how hard that would be to pull off nowadays? Just logistically speaking, for nobody in the league office to leak that, for no disgruntled retired refs to say anything?

If you want to believe that shady **** has happened in the past? Fine. I can't disprove that even if I think it's ridiculous. There is no ****ing way leagues could pull that off now.

Chronz
04-12-2017, 09:59 PM
^ To be fair the NBA has plenty of kangaroo court legacies in its past - even recent past. Have most posters already forgotten that it was exposed as being rigged just about 10 years ago? Moreover I don't know a single thinking individual who believes the draft lottery is on the up and up. NBA has always had a reputation as something closer to WWF than the MLB, for instance.

Now that's not to say MLB and the NFL haven't been dirty. A World Series was rigged and the most successful franchise currently in the NFL are known cheaters. But neither of those leagues could you honestly accuse of being little more than a gambling front.
I don't buy the lotto being fixed unless you talking illuminati type ****

flea
04-12-2017, 10:09 PM
You know it would be virtually impossible to rig the lottery nowadays right? Every team sends representatives into the room, there are several media members who see it happen, the lottery is not rigged. Same goes for ref rigging. Do you know how hard that would be to pull off nowadays? Just logistically speaking, for nobody in the league office to leak that, for no disgruntled retired refs to say anything?

If you want to believe that shady **** has happened in the past? Fine. I can't disprove that even if I think it's ridiculous. There is no ****ing way leagues could pull that off now.

There is no reason to prove or disprove anything - it is common knowledge that the NBA was rigged within the last 15 years. An NBA official did federal prison time as a result of the rigging. So believe it's as benign as you want to - clearly you're one of those fanboys who doesn't like to acknowledge the seedier sides of his childhood pastimes.

As to the lottery, let's just say the mathematical odds aren't in favor of it being legitimate. Hell just take the last 10 years and calculate it out - I'm not just saying it's because Chicago got Rose and Cleveland got Lebron. But whatever, that's not relevant to this topic and I don't feel like arguing it.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-12-2017, 10:18 PM
Sure.

ewing
04-12-2017, 11:09 PM
Does anything related to the Knicks count?

of course.

MJNetsIsles
04-13-2017, 11:48 AM
I count the Nets championships as titles for the Nets but not NBA titles. The ABA was competitive and having 2 rings from there is worthy of note but I don't consider the Nets true World Champions yet. They will be if/when they won an NBA title.

Hellcrooner
04-13-2017, 12:10 PM
Laker haters.
So salty.

its 16 titles dudes, get over it.

TheMightyHumph
04-13-2017, 02:09 PM
I count the Nets championships as titles for the Nets but not NBA titles. The ABA was competitive and having 2 rings from there is worthy of note but I don't consider the Nets true World Champions yet. They will be if/when they won an NBA title.

Were you around when the ABA existed?

europagnpilgrim
04-13-2017, 02:53 PM
You know it would be virtually impossible to rig the lottery nowadays right? Every team sends representatives into the room, there are several media members who see it happen, the lottery is not rigged. Same goes for ref rigging. Do you know how hard that would be to pull off nowadays? Just logistically speaking, for nobody in the league office to leak that, for no disgruntled retired refs to say anything?

If you want to believe that shady **** has happened in the past? Fine. I can't disprove that even if I think it's ridiculous. There is no ****ing way leagues could pull that off now.

Mutombo tweeted it out in a recent draft lottery congratulating Sixers for getting top pick(or whatever team got it) so I don't know how he could have that info before the lottery even had started

and that ref was labeled 'rogue' because he broke the silent code that they all have to abide by, if you don't see that and need more proof then you must really think the man really has been to the moon and other pagan fabricated his- story

I bet you thought Canseco was a liar/bitter old man for saying what he said about players not on that Roid list when it was first presented to the public and I bet you think players don't still do it now which is so far from the truth, its still cheaters in MLB

how can something be ridiculous when the leagues involved owned up to it and punished the scapegoats for it? how come Stern/Selig didn't get punished for it since they operate the NBA/MLB as Commissioners? The leagues work together to benefit all for the most part because its a business and all about revenue with winning/competing as a sideshow

you think D Sterling is the only owner who feels(racist/prejudice) that way towards other nationalities(races)?

if you don't want to believe shady **** has happened in the past and the current present that is not fine but a state of high ignorance

they MLB has been in rig/scandals way back with the White Sox in the early 1900's, players have been getting drunk and doing drugs way back in the days, not just now with all the partying and whatever, it gets recycled generation to generation, nothing new under the sun

europagnpilgrim
04-13-2017, 02:57 PM
Laker haters.
So salty.

its 16 titles dudes, get over it.

Salty about what? presenting facts isn't about being salty, if someone has a diff. perspective about a topic its called open minded while the weak minded think its people being haters, such a weak statement to make when it actually happened, I guess that makes you a fanatic in denial

didn't Minny/Mikan win 5 titles as the Minny Lakers?

Did OKC take Seattle title with them?

11 titles dudes, get under it

Magic won 5, West won 1, Kobe won 5 = 11 titles

Quinnsanity
04-13-2017, 03:09 PM
Mutombo tweeted it out in a recent draft lottery congratulating Sixers for getting top pick(or whatever team got it) so I don't know how he could have that info before the lottery even had started

and that ref was labeled 'rogue' because he broke the silent code that they all have to abide by, if you don't see that and need more proof then you must really think the man really has been to the moon and other pagan fabricated his- story

I bet you thought Canseco was a liar/bitter old man for saying what he said about players not on that Roid list when it was first presented to the public and I bet you think players don't still do it now which is so far from the truth, its still cheaters in MLB

how can something be ridiculous when the leagues involved owned up to it and punished the scapegoats for it? how come Stern/Selig didn't get punished for it since they operate the NBA/MLB as Commissioners? The leagues work together to benefit all for the most part because its a business and all about revenue with winning/competing as a sideshow

you think D Sterling is the only owner who feels(racist/prejudice) that way towards other nationalities(races)?

if you don't want to believe shady **** has happened in the past and the current present that is not fine but a state of high ignorance

they MLB has been in rig/scandals way back with the White Sox in the early 1900's, players have been getting drunk and doing drugs way back in the days, not just now with all the partying and whatever, it gets recycled generation to generation, nothing new under the sun

Ok, let's play this rigging thing out. Let's say the NBA really did rig the lottery for the Sixers last year. How the **** would Dikembe Mutombo have known about it? He is not officially associated with the team in any way anymore, and everyone who was there when he was is gone. Here's a far likelier explanation, someone posted the lottery odds online that day, Mutombo saw the Sixers on top and misinterpreted it as them winning the lottery, or something along those lines.

Of course shady **** has happened. And of course shady **** is still happening. I happen to believe that most NBA players are doping in some way, shape or form. But the notion that the league is rigging games or lotteries is ****ing stupid. I don't see how you can look at the Tim Donaghy thing and think, "this literal criminal is telling the truth," rather than "this literal criminal is trying to make a buck because he is no longer employable." Which one seems more plausible?

As far as Sterling goes, thanks for giving me another platform for this, but Rich DeVos is a very public homophobe and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that Sterling can get kicked out of the league for racism but DeVos can't for homophobia, even if he's quieter about it. It shows me how little the NBA actually cares about social issues, they just know that most of their players are black and a lot of their fans are black so they can't have someone who hates black people because it'd be bad for business, but most of their players and fans aren't gay so homophobia isn't a problem.

Big Zo
04-13-2017, 05:21 PM
Salty about what? presenting facts isn't about being salty, if someone has a diff. perspective about a topic its called open minded while the weak minded think its people being haters, such a weak statement to make when it actually happened, I guess that makes you a fanatic in denial

didn't Minny/Mikan win 5 titles as the Minny Lakers?

Did OKC take Seattle title with them?

11 titles dudes, get under it

Magic won 5, West won 1, Kobe won 5 = 11 titles

*Shaq won 3, Kobe won 2

Chronz
04-13-2017, 09:08 PM
Guys, that was 1 ref.

TheMightyHumph
04-13-2017, 11:11 PM
Guys, that was 1 ref.

Meaning what?

Raps18-19 Champ
04-14-2017, 12:14 AM
What's worse is when people count titles when they weren't a fan of the team at that time.

TheMightyHumph
04-14-2017, 01:05 AM
What's worse is when people count titles when they weren't a fan of the team at that time.

Aren't too many George Mikan or Bob Cousy fans out there.

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 01:35 AM
Ok, let's play this rigging thing out. Let's say the NBA really did rig the lottery for the Sixers last year. How the **** would Dikembe Mutombo have known about it? He is not officially associated with the team in any way anymore, and everyone who was there when he was is gone. Here's a far likelier explanation, someone posted the lottery odds online that day, Mutombo saw the Sixers on top and misinterpreted it as them winning the lottery, or something along those lines.

Of course shady **** has happened. And of course shady **** is still happening. I happen to believe that most NBA players are doping in some way, shape or form. But the notion that the league is rigging games or lotteries is ****ing stupid. I don't see how you can look at the Tim Donaghy thing and think, "this literal criminal is telling the truth," rather than "this literal criminal is trying to make a buck because he is no longer employable." Which one seems more plausible?

As far as Sterling goes, thanks for giving me another platform for this, but Rich DeVos is a very public homophobe and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that Sterling can get kicked out of the league for racism but DeVos can't for homophobia, even if he's quieter about it. It shows me how little the NBA actually cares about social issues, they just know that most of their players are black and a lot of their fans are black so they can't have someone who hates black people because it'd be bad for business, but most of their players and fans aren't gay so homophobia isn't a problem.

Why did Mutombo delete his tweet shortly after? the lottery was fixed for Cavs to get top level players/assets for the return of Lebron, the Knicks drafting Ewing with the folded at the corner envelope and on and on

shady = (fixed/rigged) is always going to happen and doping is going on now and in the old days but was in different form/name, refs control the games and how can I not look at Tim Donaghy and say wow what a whistle blower, he was on point just like Canseco was on point about ARod not being on the initial list of the Mitchell report, why not try and make a buck if you take the fall for Stern and his thugs, that's basic business sense 101, he isn't no more a criminal than the association that hired him in the first place

if you go back and watch that Lakers/Kings 2002 you can clearly see how the refs controlled/rigged the calls in favor for the Lakers, its more obvious in some games but I believe Tim D when he gave the info about refs having pre game meetings and making bets and how they are going to call the game and taking orders from the higher ups in the nba, that is set in stone, Phil Jackson even said it during actual games about how the refs control(fix) the outcome for the most part, its all about Hollywood endings and we all know how Hollywood roll, cue the script Quinn

Sterling and pretty much all the owners are closet or open racist/slave mentality owners, they use you up and then when you cant do it at the super level then they pawn you off to the next owner or you are out the league, go read up on how slavery was operated way back and look at right now how the NCAA is nothing more than that, along with the pros in all professional sports, Adrian Peterson not too long ago said playing in the NFL was like being on a plantation, go figure

I mentioned Sterling to show you that he took the media blame/fall for the other owners, just as Tim D took the fall for the other refs, just like R Lewis took the fall for doping in the nba even though Howard/Lebron are most likely doing it but are protected for now, just like certain nfl players get suspended and be the fall guy, its all about hero vs fall guy and the Mitchell report in MLB and so on and on

I didn't give you a platform, just another angle to show you that when you see something in the media that is bad and that player/owner/ref gets put out there its most likely he took the fall for the others who are doing it and getting away with it, works like that in the NCAA as well, see Louisville for the sex scandal they just had recently, they do that at pretty much all the Universities, no doubt, same with Sandusky at Penn State, its a lot of that happening in the closet as we speak that wont make the media feeds

just like the Pope has paid out many settlements for touching/molesting lil boys, the ones reported are just a pimple compared to the actual number of times it really has happened, really is sad once you put it all together with a open mind

you need to make up your mind because on one hand you say the draft is not rigged(shady) but then turn around and say shady(rigged) **** has happened and still is happening, like c'mon Quinn-findyour'Sanity'

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 01:44 AM
*Shaq won 3, Kobe won 2

I only gave Kobe the 5 because of seniority 20yrs vs 8yrs for Shaq

but I get exactly where you coming from because its like Lebron won 2, Wade won 1 using your example from the HEAT side of things

Quinnsanity
04-14-2017, 03:07 AM
Why did Mutombo delete his tweet shortly after? the lottery was fixed for Cavs to get top level players/assets for the return of Lebron, the Knicks drafting Ewing with the folded at the corner envelope and on and on

shady = (fixed/rigged) is always going to happen and doping is going on now and in the old days but was in different form/name, refs control the games and how can I not look at Tim Donaghy and say wow what a whistle blower, he was on point just like Canseco was on point about ARod not being on the initial list of the Mitchell report, why not try and make a buck if you take the fall for Stern and his thugs, that's basic business sense 101, he isn't no more a criminal than the association that hired him in the first place

if you go back and watch that Lakers/Kings 2002 you can clearly see how the refs controlled/rigged the calls in favor for the Lakers, its more obvious in some games but I believe Tim D when he gave the info about refs having pre game meetings and making bets and how they are going to call the game and taking orders from the higher ups in the nba, that is set in stone, Phil Jackson even said it during actual games about how the refs control(fix) the outcome for the most part, its all about Hollywood endings and we all know how Hollywood roll, cue the script Quinn

Sterling and pretty much all the owners are closet or open racist/slave mentality owners, they use you up and then when you cant do it at the super level then they pawn you off to the next owner or you are out the league, go read up on how slavery was operated way back and look at right now how the NCAA is nothing more than that, along with the pros in all professional sports, Adrian Peterson not too long ago said playing in the NFL was like being on a plantation, go figure

I mentioned Sterling to show you that he took the media blame/fall for the other owners, just as Tim D took the fall for the other refs, just like R Lewis took the fall for doping in the nba even though Howard/Lebron are most likely doing it but are protected for now, just like certain nfl players get suspended and be the fall guy, its all about hero vs fall guy and the Mitchell report in MLB and so on and on

I didn't give you a platform, just another angle to show you that when you see something in the media that is bad and that player/owner/ref gets put out there its most likely he took the fall for the others who are doing it and getting away with it, works like that in the NCAA as well, see Louisville for the sex scandal they just had recently, they do that at pretty much all the Universities, no doubt, same with Sandusky at Penn State, its a lot of that happening in the closet as we speak that wont make the media feeds

just like the Pope has paid out many settlements for touching/molesting lil boys, the ones reported are just a pimple compared to the actual number of times it really has happened, really is sad once you put it all together with a open mind

you need to make up your mind because on one hand you say the draft is not rigged(shady) but then turn around and say shady(rigged) **** has happened and still is happening, like c'mon Quinn-findyour'Sanity'

Delete your account.

heat3X
04-14-2017, 10:23 AM
The whole lottery is rigged thing is just so stupid. first off, the nba doesnt do the lottery, an accounting firm does in plain sight of executives from every lottery team. and second, you can make a "storyline" for every team in the lottery if they were to win it. I'll show you right now.

Celtics- Just trying to help out one of the greatest franchises in NBA history go back to their dynasty years.
Suns- just trying to help create the next GS type super team to give the warriors a run for their money in the coming years.
Lakers- enough said.
Philly- trying to help out a team that has been at the bottom of the nba for years. 2 straight years of #1 picks? Rigged!!!
Orlando- Dwight decimated that franchise and the NBA is just trying to help that get back on track.
Minnesota- trying to create the newest superteam to pair with Towns Wiggins, Lavine, and Rubio. Rigged!
Knicks- enough said.
Sacremento- just a trainwreck of a franchise that the nba is helping to pull them out of the muck.
Dallas- mark cuban definitely had something to do with it. That is so fishy!!!!
New Orleans- now that they have boogie and AD they are giving them another young star to create another super team.
Charlotte- the league just trying to help out a struggling franchise who just so happens to have their owner as the GOAT? rigged!
Detroit- going into a new arena with a team that has been mediocre, the league is just trying to help them!
Denver- the league saw that they had a superstar talent in Jokic and was trying to create another superteam
Miami- The heat didnt tank and the league took notice and gave them the #1 pick as a way and showing how they disapprove of tanking.

It is stupid.

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 10:41 AM
Delete your account.


Prove what I said doesn't exist on any level and I will gladly delete it

if you cant prove it delete yours, or just take a leave of absence indefinitely until you get your 'Sanity' back

heat3X
04-14-2017, 10:43 AM
Prove what I said doesn't exist on any level and I will gladly delete it

if you cant prove it delete yours, or just take a leave of absence indefinitely until you get your 'Sanity' back

The lottery is done by an accounting firm in front of executives from every team. Proven wrong. Your conspiracy theory has no basis in reality and you can make an argument that the league is rigged if any of the 14 teams in the lottery win it.

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 10:48 AM
The whole lottery is rigged thing is just so stupid. first off, the nba doesnt do the lottery, an accounting firm does in plain sight of executives from every lottery team. and second, you can make a "storyline" for every team in the lottery if they were to win it. I'll show you right now.

Celtics- Just trying to help out one of the greatest franchises in NBA history go back to their dynasty years.
Suns- just trying to help create the next GS type super team to give the warriors a run for their money in the coming years.
Lakers- enough said.
Philly- trying to help out a team that has been at the bottom of the nba for years. 2 straight years of #1 picks? Rigged!!!
Orlando- Dwight decimated that franchise and the NBA is just trying to help that get back on track.
Minnesota- trying to create the newest superteam to pair with Towns Wiggins, Lavine, and Rubio. Rigged!
Knicks- enough said.
Sacremento- just a trainwreck of a franchise that the nba is helping to pull them out of the muck.
Dallas- mark cuban definitely had something to do with it. That is so fishy!!!!
New Orleans- now that they have boogie and AD they are giving them another young star to create another super team.
Charlotte- the league just trying to help out a struggling franchise who just so happens to have their owner as the GOAT? rigged!
Detroit- going into a new arena with a team that has been mediocre, the league is just trying to help them!
Denver- the league saw that they had a superstar talent in Jokic and was trying to create another superteam
Miami- The heat didnt tank and the league took notice and gave them the #1 pick as a way and showing how they disapprove of tanking.

It is stupid.

you could say 'the whole nba rogue ref thing was stupid'
you could say 'the whole mlb steroid investigation was stupid'
you could say 'the whole spygate/deflategate was stupid'
you could say 'the whole D Sterling racist **** was stupid'
you could say ' the whole society is dumbed down scenario' was stupid
you could say 'the whole Olympic roid/dope user reports' was stupid

you could go on and on and on and it still exists from the 1900's(earlier even) until the present time

all the teams have had its moment(s) being catered too, its part of being in business, some get more than others since you cant please all 30 teams equally, you guys have a lot of living to do because its right smack dead in your face and you still deny it

fall back

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 10:51 AM
The lottery is done by an accounting firm in front of executives from every team. Proven wrong. Your conspiracy theory has no basis in reality and you can make an argument that the league is rigged if any of the 14 teams in the lottery win it.

Proven that it is done by an accounting firm in front of executives? and I am not talking about what they show on television

show me footage of behind the scenes where they are in front of every executive from every team and you will have proven me wrong

its always a conspiracy theory when something has a ounce of truth to it

why is it always called conspiracy theory? that is stupid

heat3X
04-14-2017, 01:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKI-fToATpQ

You are wrong. Take off the tinfoil hat.

WaDe03
04-14-2017, 01:42 PM
The Cavs had like a .0000000000000123 chance of getting those picks. That **** was rigged. The Bulls magically getting the 1st seed for the hometown Rose was rigged.

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 02:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKI-fToATpQ

You are wrong. Take off the tinfoil hat.

If I were to post all my so called conspiracy crap it would take up pages, so take off your blinders

if I am so wrong then why did those involved in this conspiracy talk get fined/punished for it? or in some cases rewarded for it like in the draft

watching Stu Jackson is not proof of the draft not being rigged, are your blinders that thick around your house(brain), that has to be some of the worst proof ever

go read what that rogue ref accused the nba of doing, you must be a agent for the nba or something because you cant be this naive

heat3X
04-14-2017, 03:26 PM
If I were to post all my so called conspiracy crap it would take up pages, so take off your blinders

if I am so wrong then why did those involved in this conspiracy talk get fined/punished for it? or in some cases rewarded for it like in the draft

watching Stu Jackson is not proof of the draft not being rigged, are your blinders that thick around your house(brain), that has to be some of the worst proof ever

go read what that rogue ref accused the nba of doing, you must be a agent for the nba or something because you cant be this naive

we definitely didnt land on the moon either!!!!

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 03:41 PM
we definitely didnt land on the moon either!!!!

I figured you would bring up another hoax since your Stu Jackson proof was comical at best

this is a instant classic, showing Stu Jackson pick juggling ping pong balls out of a vacuum, pure classic proof

I bet you think the earth is flat as well as a man landing on the damn moon, child please

I bet you believe Hitler also killed 6 million people that look just like him to complete his master race plot right? how in the hell can you claim you want a pure master race/takeover and kill 6 million of your same kind? now did Hitler starve some soldiers to death? sure he did but he didn't kill nowhere near 6 million so called Jews, but I bet you believe it

whats even more funnier is that all these media leaked stories about cheating/fixed have been going on for decades after decades covering all sports but the sheep believe nothing is going on, regardless of the penalties being handed out and the confessions from the ones who have been outed amongst the shady media

you are the type of character to believe Lance Armstrong was the only cyclist doping, child please, he wasn't but he was the media fall guy for the sport of cycling, poor Lance

you are the type that believes Shakespeare is a genius but he had a child writing his plays, he was illiterate, literally

heat3X
04-14-2017, 03:50 PM
I figured you would bring up another hoax since your Stu Jackson proof was comical at best

this is a instant classic, showing Stu Jackson pick juggling ping pong balls out of a vacuum, pure classic proof

I bet you think the earth is flat as well as a man landing on the damn moon, child please

I bet you believe Hitler also killed 6 million people that look just like him to complete his master race plot right? how in the hell can you claim you want a pure master race/takeover and kill 6 million of your same kind? now did Hitler starve some soldiers to death? sure he did but he didn't kill nowhere near 6 million so called Jews, but I bet you believe it

whats even more funnier is that all these media leaked stories about cheating/fixed have been going on for decades after decades covering all sports but the sheep believe nothing is going on, regardless of the penalties being handed out and the confessions from the ones who have been outed amongst the shady media

you are the type of character to believe Lance Armstrong was the only cyclist doping, child please, he wasn't but he was the media fall guy for the sport of cycling, poor Lance

you are the type that believes Shakespeare is a genius but he had a child writing his plays, he was illiterate, literally

jesus ****ing christ. Are you saying the holocaust didnt actually happen? Cause you are a huge piece of **** if that is what you are saying and you deserve to get your ****ing *** kicked. Hitler killed people who werent part of his master race you moron. I am not only Jewish but have been to the concentration camps, while you are reading conspiracy theories on the internet.

The entire sport of cycling was caught doping you ****ing dope no one thinks Armstrong is the only person doping in that sport.

Stu JAckson picking juggling ping pong balls out of a vacuum is exactly what the lottery is you moron. Each team has a certain amount of combinations that mean they get the number 1 pick. Him picking those balls in front of all the executives, which is exactly what you saw in that video, is what the lottery is.

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 06:19 PM
1.)No I didn't say Hitler didn't starve out/kill soldiers(he cut off the food supply), how can Hitler kill people that look just like him from head to toe but claim he wanted a master Aryan race? its like Marcus Garvey claiming what he wanted for his people and then went and murdered the same folks that look like him, are you this dense minded all the time? in a age of information you cant be claiming you are JEW-ish especially if you don't know the actually meaning of the word JEW-ish, you Wish you were, and once again why is the truth always a conspiracy theory? why isn't it just the truth?


6,000,000 JEWS



You ministers often repeat the Jew story that “Hitler killed 6 million Jews,” yet the 1939 World Almanac shows 15,688,259 Jews in the world and 9 years later the New York Times reported there where between 15,600,000 and 18,700,000 Jews! If Hitler killed 6 million, how come there were no less in 1948 than in 1939? The same sources report the Jews in Germany in 1938, PRIOR TO THE SUPPOSED KILLINGS, totaled only 550,000 (1/2 million!)

If Germans killed 38% of all Jews in the world, does that mean the 9,688,259 left had six to nine million children in the next 9 years? It takes normal populations 100 years to double – how come Jews did it in 9? AND THEN NEVER DID IT AGAIN? (Present world population of “Jews” is about the same as it was in 1948)

Why do you repeat this Jewish propaganda lie to your flock?


2.) if the entire sport of cycling was doping who was the poster boy/face of it? Armstrong right? you didn't hear about all the cycling competitors, and it was another guy who got put out there to take some steam off of Armstrong, just like the list from the Mitchell report in MLB had a lot of big name players but it didn't mention everybody who was actually on roids/hgh/etc..

3. Stu Jackson was doing exactly what they do on tv, nothing behind the scenes about that you village idiot, each team is told what they will get and like it, him picking in front of those executives didn't prove nothing, I saw 2 damn people on the screen, not a bunch of executives, and that still doesn't prove nothing since they all work in the same circle, you got refs who have actually worked in the nba who were fbi/cia type guys, step up your non conspiracy(truth) game and learn a thing or three

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 06:25 PM
jesus ****ing christ. Are you saying the holocaust didnt actually happen? Cause you are a huge piece of **** if that is what you are saying and you deserve to get your ****ing *** kicked. Hitler killed people who werent part of his master race you moron. I am not only Jewish but have been to the concentration camps, while you are reading conspiracy theories on the internet.

The entire sport of cycling was caught doping you ****ing dope no one thinks Armstrong is the only person doping in that sport.

Stu JAckson picking juggling ping pong balls out of a vacuum is exactly what the lottery is you moron. Each team has a certain amount of combinations that mean they get the number 1 pick. Him picking those balls in front of all the executives, which is exactly what you saw in that video, is what the lottery is.

Jews are Khazars, NOT Israelites.

The “Jews” of America, Europe, and Israel are descendants not of Father Abraham but of King Bulan and the people of ancient Khazaria. Khazaria was an amalgam of Turkic clans who once lived in the Caucasus (Southern Russia) in the early centuries CE. These Turkic peoples were pagans who convertedto Judaism in the eighth century. As converts, they called themselves “Jews,” but none of their blood comes from Israel.

Geneticists report that less than 2% of “Jews” living in Israel are actually Israelites.

Later, the “Jews” (Khazars) emigrated, settling in Russia, Hungary, Poland, Germany, and elsewhere in Europe. As “Jews,” the Khazars then left the European nations in 1948 and settled the fledgling, new nation of Israel.

The people of Israel are not the seed, nor the ancestors, of Abraham. They call themselves “Jews,” but in fact, DNA science shows them to be Khazars. They say they are “Jew,” but they are not.

“There are no blood or family connections among the Jews,” said Dr. Elhaik in an interview with Haaretz, Israel’s daily newspaper.

“The various groups of Jews in the world today do not share a common genetic origin. Their genome is largely Khazar.”

heat3X
04-14-2017, 07:18 PM
holy **** this guy needs to be in a mental ward.

heat3X
04-14-2017, 07:26 PM
2.) if the entire sport of cycling was doping who was the poster boy/face of it? Armstrong right? you didn't hear about all the cycling competitors, and it was another guy who got put out there to take some steam off of Armstrong, just like the list from the Mitchell report in MLB had a lot of big name players but it didn't mention everybody who was actually on roids/hgh/etc..

3. Stu Jackson was doing exactly what they do on tv, nothing behind the scenes about that you village idiot, each team is told what they will get and like it, him picking in front of those executives didn't prove nothing, I saw 2 damn people on the screen, not a bunch of executives, and that still doesn't prove nothing since they all work in the same circle, you got refs who have actually worked in the nba who were fbi/cia type guys, step up your non conspiracy(truth) game and learn a thing or three

Not even going to get into your other moronic statements, but Lance Armstrong was the poster boy because he is the only cycler anyone knew and the most famous american athlete at the time. There was a 2012 report that implicated dozens of doping cyclists if you did 1 bit of research. Can you even name another cyclist? Only other one i can even name is Floyd Landis, and only reason i know of him is because he was anothe famous american who got caught doping also. You sound like a moron.

That Stu Jackson thing was literally exactly what the lottery is. They pick a number 1-10 and then the combination corresponds to a specific team picking a specific number. the teams with the higher odds have more combinations that allow them to pick higher. There are executives clearly in the room in that video so you didnt even watch it in its entirety. They draw those numbers, the numbers correspond to a certain team in a certain pick, and each team in the lottery has one representative in the room while it happens and has to turn in all communication devices until the lottery is announced on tv. Further, there is no stu jackson picking balls, the balls come out by themselves.

I have no idea why im even entertaining this, I think youre just a troll.

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 08:48 PM
Not even going to get into your other moronic statements, but Lance Armstrong was the poster boy because he is the only cycler anyone knew and the most famous american athlete at the time. There was a 2012 report that implicated dozens of doping cyclists if you did 1 bit of research. Can you even name another cyclist? Only other one i can even name is Floyd Landis, and only reason i know of him is because he was anothe famous american who got caught doping also. You sound like a moron.

That Stu Jackson thing was literally exactly what the lottery is. They pick a number 1-10 and then the combination corresponds to a specific team picking a specific number. the teams with the higher odds have more combinations that allow them to pick higher. There are executives clearly in the room in that video so you didnt even watch it in its entirety. They draw those numbers, the numbers correspond to a certain team in a certain pick, and each team in the lottery has one representative in the room while it happens and has to turn in all communication devices until the lottery is announced on tv. Further, there is no stu jackson picking balls, the balls come out by themselves.

I have no idea why im even entertaining this, I think youre just a troll.

I wouldn't get into those other moronic statements either because you cant swim in that ocean, its way too deep for your thinking, you might actually learn something for once or twice in your life

I don't follow cyclists so it was just something the sports media was over hyping and Lance and another guy got the brunt of the spotlight, they were the face regardless if another report named a dozen other cyclists, similar to how Patriots took the spotlight for its cheating ways but we know damn well its been done in the nfl by other teams they just took the media fall/scapegoat for it, you sound like a village idiot for knowing cheating/rigging goes on in all sports but somehow the nba draft is exempt from that same practice, make up your mind and quite hedging your bets

the Stu Jackson thing was nothing but him going along with the show, nothing more nor less

a troll? a troll couldn't provide you with half the knowledge I could, I already schooled on the Jewish/Hitler non sense, and you tucked your tail and ran into a corner because you cant refute what f-actually happened

all the teams are working together so they should be in the room together, just like most owners feel like Sterling but they put on a front to not be put in the crossfire as Sterling did, no different that Trump being president and he is a puppet on strings and is being told what to do but making it seem like he is a tough guy with no political experience but somehow magically ran for and won the president election, that's also rigged and you can google Dick Gregory and see how he explains it himself since he actually ran for president and they rigged his votes in I think Philly for him over Nixon, they plugged it in the wrong machines and gave him 9 million votes but I am sure you will say all the voters were in the room when that happened, go fly a kite and have fun

europagnpilgrim
04-14-2017, 08:54 PM
holy **** this guy needs to be in a mental ward.

Sounds like you just got out of one, send me a pamphlet

I bet you think its a conspiracy theory on what they actually do to you in a mental facility, stop being a tool and keep both eyes open, especially your third eye

heat3X
04-14-2017, 09:01 PM
I wouldn't get into those other moronic statements either because you cant swim in that ocean, its way too deep for your thinking, you might actually learn something for once or twice in your life

I don't follow cyclists so it was just something the sports media was over hyping and Lance and another guy got the brunt of the spotlight, they were the face regardless if another report named a dozen other cyclists, similar to how Patriots took the spotlight for its cheating ways but we know damn well its been done in the nfl by other teams they just took the media fall/scapegoat for it, you sound like a village idiot for knowing cheating/rigging goes on in all sports but somehow the nba draft is exempt from that same practice, make up your mind and quite hedging your bets

the Stu Jackson thing was nothing but him going along with the show, nothing more nor less

a troll? a troll couldn't provide you with half the knowledge I could, I already schooled on the Jewish/Hitler non sense, and you tucked your tail and ran into a corner because you cant refute what f-actually happened

all the teams are working together so they should be in the room together, just like most owners feel like Sterling but they put on a front to not be put in the crossfire as Sterling did, no different that Trump being president and he is a puppet on strings and is being told what to do but making it seem like he is a tough guy with no political experience but somehow magically ran for and won the president election, that's also rigged and you can google Dick Gregory and see how he explains it himself since he actually ran for president and they rigged his votes in I think Philly for him over Nixon, they plugged it in the wrong machines and gave him 9 million votes but I am sure you will say all the voters were in the room when that happened, go fly a kite and have fun

You havent schooled anyone in anything. You sound absurd as if everything is just one big conspiracy and you are the only one who knows. You legit sound like you should be in a mental ward as if everyone is out to get you.

9/11 was an inside job too right?!?!?

Quinnsanity
04-15-2017, 12:26 AM
This could've been an interesting thread. Sigh.

europagnpilgrim
04-15-2017, 11:49 AM
You havent schooled anyone in anything. You sound absurd as if everything is just one big conspiracy and you are the only one who knows. You legit sound like you should be in a mental ward as if everyone is out to get you.

9/11 was an inside job too right?!?!?

You are a funny character, first you are the one who called me a conspiracy theorist, next you claim I surf the internet to find information only to post a Youtube(internet) video of Stu Jackson and his buddy showing a Hollywood scripted lottery, then you call yourself JEW-ish then you talk about the man on the moon, then you mention a mental ward, now you are talking about 9/11

now ask yourself this, if a building falls down demolition style is that more close to a bomb style or fire/burning style fall? ask yourself this, when a building is made from the strongest steel material and crumbles to the ground in 2 hrs is that shocking when compared to building that has burned for 18-20 hrs and never did fall demolition style or at all for that matter? 9/11 was a gov't sponsored job, whatever you feel 'inside' about it is on you

I bet you think Osama Bin Laden was such a terrorist but don't realize he worked for the CIA, go learn something and stop criticizing others for the same stuff you do/are(internet information surfing/conspiracy theorist)

and yes I have schooled you aplenty, re read my posts for proof, especially about the Jews(Khazars) and Hitler killing 6 million Jews(really he starved 500k soldiers to death)

you the type of character to believe the 666 is devil/demonic sign which actually its the 6 Protons 6 Electrons 6 Neutrons = Melanin, facts

you the type of character to believe the Nazi/Hitler swastika sign is evil when in ancient is was meant for good, facts

you the type to believe the U.S. Constitution was created by the so called founding fathers when it was written by a Moor(s), fact

you think technology is of todays world when it is many thousands of years old, fact

reverse engineering is what the Euros and fake so called JEW-ish are masters at, fact

now go study for yourself, self education is the best, fact

Chronz
04-15-2017, 12:10 PM
You guys have taken this well beyond the realm of basketball. I do believe in conspiracies but i don't have to buy them all and I've gone down this rabbit hole before, there is no way to rig the lotto unless you're saying ALL teams are in on it.

europagnpilgrim
04-15-2017, 12:21 PM
You guys have taken this well beyond the realm of basketball. I do believe in conspiracies but i don't have to buy them all and I've gone down this rabbit hole before, there is no way to rig the lotto unless you're saying ALL teams are in on it.

the threads on here usually go in a variety of directions so its nothing new under the sun, I am glad that you believe in truth(conspiracy) because at least you think with a open mind and for your self, its like saying all the gov't/countries are not working together, which you may have 1 or 2 who oppose such but at the end of the day they are all pretty much doing the same dirt, same with the nba lottery draft, some teams get the short end of the stick but they all work in the same chain, just different links

its like how the media paints pictures of Islam terror and North Korean/Iran as thugs and countries with horrible agendas but the United States have invaded more countries/territories than all other Countries combined because its all the same ish just a different toilet, facts

europagnpilgrim
04-22-2017, 09:00 PM
You havent schooled anyone in anything. You sound absurd as if everything is just one big conspiracy and you are the only one who knows. You legit sound like you should be in a mental ward as if everyone is out to get you.

9/11 was an inside job too right?!?!?

Investigate it for yourself, and then come to the conclusion for yourself so then you can think for yourself instead of being spoon fed by the legit mental ward media(who is out to get you)

https://youtu.be/W_dG4veQn-8

FlashBolt
04-22-2017, 09:16 PM
the threads on here usually go in a variety of directions so its nothing new under the sun, I am glad that you believe in truth(conspiracy) because at least you think with a open mind and for your self, its like saying all the gov't/countries are not working together, which you may have 1 or 2 who oppose such but at the end of the day they are all pretty much doing the same dirt, same with the nba lottery draft, some teams get the short end of the stick but they all work in the same chain, just different links

its like how the media paints pictures of Islam terror and North Korean/Iran as thugs and countries with horrible agendas but the United States have invaded more countries/territories than all other Countries combined because its all the same ish just a different toilet, facts

It's not just the United States but I'm glad you're such a conspiracy theorist. Explains why you are so difficult.

Chronz
04-23-2017, 09:02 AM
the threads on here usually go in a variety of directions so its nothing new under the sun, I am glad that you believe in truth(conspiracy) because at least you think with a open mind and for your self, its like saying all the gov't/countries are not working together, which you may have 1 or 2 who oppose such but at the end of the day they are all pretty much doing the same dirt, same with the nba lottery draft, some teams get the short end of the stick but they all work in the same chain, just different links

its like how the media paints pictures of Islam terror and North Korean/Iran as thugs and countries with horrible agendas but the United States have invaded more countries/territories than all other Countries combined because its all the same ish just a different toilet, facts

I'm just saying **** can get too off topic but i do have some books you might be interested in. I'll pm you

valade16
04-23-2017, 09:26 AM
Investigate it for yourself, and then come to the conclusion for yourself so then you can think for yourself instead of being spoon fed by the legit mental ward media(who is out to get you)

https://youtu.be/W_dG4veQn-8

Do you think the teams are in on it or they know? Because I just don't believe that some team or person hasn't complained that their team hasn't benefited from this arrangement.

heat3X
04-23-2017, 09:50 PM
Investigate it for yourself, and then come to the conclusion for yourself so then you can think for yourself instead of being spoon fed by the legit mental ward media(who is out to get you)

https://youtu.be/W_dG4veQn-8

Very true. 9/11 was totally an inside job!!!! Especially because there is nothing this government is better at than keeping secrets. Everything is a lie!!!!!

Chronz
04-24-2017, 06:06 PM
Very true. 9/11 was totally an inside job!!!! Especially because there is nothing this government is better at than keeping secrets. Everything is a lie!!!!!
Youre going crazy man