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Jeffy25
04-10-2017, 07:41 PM
I dunno if we have an MVP thread somewhere, but this is a good debate this year.

Westbrook has the triple double with great usage
Harden has a great year with a good team stance
LeBron is arguably having the best season of his career chasing the 1 seed
Thomas is having a great year, chasing the 1 seed
Leonard is having his best year on a great team

It's a great discussion this year

Who do you have?

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 01:12 PM
LeBron/Thomas/KL are out of it. None are putting up historic numbers and feats. LeBron's playing great but team record and expectations also do matter. Cavs should have been 1st seed and won at least 55 games. KL and J.R. smith were injured but they had enough to get at least that many wins.

Then we go on with RWB and Harden. I gotta give the slight edge to RWB. Our team is terrible. Take RWB out and you can't tell me we wouldn't be a bottom five team in the NBA. Idk about Houston but I see enough offense to keep them in the game against most teams. We're winning as many games as we should be winning with this team. RWB averaging a triple double (arbitrary but still, never been done before in the modern NBA), and they are leading to wins. It's not really an empty stat when the evidence shows that we win when RWB has one of "those" games. I wouldn't be upset if Harden won as the traditional argument always goes back to who wins more games but at the end of the day, are those 8 wins really THAT MUCH more of a difference when we take into account roster differences?

mngopher35
04-11-2017, 01:16 PM
Right now I would lean:

Westbrook
Harden
Kawhi

In order as my top 3. I am someone who regularly argues that being on a top seed should matter a little less and individual impact a little more, so if you feel opposite that might be where we disagree (tends to be main issue/arguments I usually have in these threads).

IKnowHoops
04-11-2017, 01:27 PM
I dunno if we have an MVP thread somewhere, but this is a good debate this year.

Westbrook has the triple double with great usage
Harden has a great year with a good team stance
LeBron is arguably having the best season of his career chasing the 1 seed
Thomas is having a great year, chasing the 1 seed
Leonard is having his best year on a great team

It's a great discussion this year

Who do you have?

I see no argument for this. He has had plenty of years that were better and easily proven by statistics.

But as far as MVP goes.

I have to give it to Westbrook. Regardless of if he is going out of his way to get rebounds, or big usage, till this year nobody thought it could be done. Even if you dedicate your game to triple doubles and not winning, there still may be only 5 people in NBA history who could of done it. Maybe 10. Bird, Magic, Lebron, Jordan for starters, but still, they never did it. Only two people have, and maybe Wilt did. Not to mention, watching Westy is a joy. He is unstoppable out there at times. When he is coming full speed, guys are at his mercy. He is definitely a beast. Probably the most athletic PG ever. It was a very close race this year, and I do think that Lebron is definitely better than Westy, but the other guys, its day to day and always changing, so I have to go with the guy expending the most energy. Thats Russ. Averaging a triple double is amazing. Period. Its the least I can do to thank Westy for allowing me to see what a triple double season looks and feels like. I must say, it was not as amazing as I thought it would be, but still I gotta give him the props I woulda given at the notion of a triple double season before I actually saw what it looked like.

DanG
04-11-2017, 03:39 PM
It's Westbrook. People criticize his turnovers and FG%, but this is how he has to play. It's like the 2015 NBA finals where LeBron had to do everything, he shot 40%, but he was the reason why the series was 6 games long. OKC's team isn't very talented offensively, athough they do have a pretty good defensive team. The OKC-HOU series will be interesting for sure.

warfelg
04-11-2017, 04:09 PM
I normally hate it but we need co-MVP this year.

GREATNESS ONE
04-11-2017, 04:20 PM
CO-MVP if not, slight edge to Westbrook over Harden but they're both having stellar seasons.

dhopisthename
04-11-2017, 05:12 PM
you could talk me into either Westbrook or Harden, but I would lean Harden

29.1/11.4/8.1 on a 61.2 ts%
vs
31.9/10.4/10.7 on a 55.5 ts%

I value Hardens efficiency and team record just a little bit over Westbrooks incredible triple double.

Jeffy25
04-11-2017, 05:16 PM
I see no argument for this. He has had plenty of years that were better and easily proven by statistics.

Most boards per game and most assists per game, 3rd best shooting season.

It's at least up there.

mngopher35
04-11-2017, 05:38 PM
you could talk me into either Westbrook or Harden, but I would lean Harden

29.1/11.4/8.1 on a 61.2 ts%
vs
31.9/10.4/10.7 on a 55.5 ts%

I value Hardens efficiency and team record just a little bit over Westbrooks incredible triple double.

I think given the different casts each has to carry the efficiency is easier to overlook here given Westy's volume doing so too. He is killing some advanced stats due to this absurd usage as can be seen as I lay some more numbers below. I agree either has a case as does Kawhi to me as well.

RPM:
Westy 6.20
Kawhi 6.15
Harden 4.75

PER:
Westy:30.8
Kawhi:27.7
Harden 27.2

WS/48:
Kawhi .266
Harden .242
Westbrook .227

BPM:
Westbrook 15.6
Harden 10.0
Kawhi 8.1

On/Off:
Westbrook +13.9
Harden +1.9
Kawhi +1.7

Not necessarily arguing/disagreeing but adding some more stats as well as Kawhi in to the mix. His box stats are underwhelming comparatively but with far far better defense than the other two. 25.7/3.5/5.8/TS%.612. Also has best record of the bunch.


Again to me I think the individual performance of Westbrook has been insane and the storyline is an added bonus as well. All of these guys have played great and deserve some consideration though.

JordansBulls
04-12-2017, 01:04 AM
Harden/Westbrook
Kawhi

will be top 3 then you got Curry, Thomas, Lebron,

Quinnsanity
04-12-2017, 01:37 AM
James Harden is my pick over Russell Westbrook (Kawhi and LeBron were viable MVP candidates in typical years and I'd never hold it against anyone for voting for them, but this year I just felt they were an inch or two behind). Here's why:

- Triple doubles are meaningless. Harden is a more valuable scorer (he takes six fewer field goal attempts to average four fewer points, if you use points per attempt as a measure Westbrook is 16th among the top 20 scorers alone) and a more valuable passer (creates 3.5 more points per game off of assists), and I don't care about Westbrook's rebounding (leads the league in both uncontested rebounds and defensive free throw rebounds by a country mile because his teammates box everyone else out and intentionally let him get them). I don't care about a dumb round number. Several players have averaged 20 combined rebounds and assists (Magic and Rodman post merger, several pre-merger), why do I care how they're split up? Harden is better at two of the three things within triple-doubles anyway and at the very least I think the third thing deserves a massive asterisk for Westbrook. Be honest with yourself.

- Before the season virtually everyone agreed that Harden's teammates were worse than Westbrook's. Houston's over/under was 41.5 wins and OKC's was 45.5. Houston is going to win 56 games and OKC is going to win 47. ESPN's preseason rankings had three Thunder players (Adams at 36, Oladipo at 48, Kanter at 80) before any non-Harden Rocket. I think the notion that Ryan Anderson or Eric Gordon magically became better players after signing their third contracts is ridiculous. Houston is winning more because Harden is better than Westbrook and because Harden makes his teammates better than Westbrook does. Harden has literally been so good that his teammates aren't allowed to be bad.

- I think this is dumb, but it's worth pointing out to those of you who use past MVPs to determine future MVPs. With those two above points in mind, let's remember that there is no precedent that states that Westbrook has to win for either of his two most compelling reasons. Oscar came in third on his triple-double, and if you're arguing that the statistical achievement was so impressive it should've been automatic, then Wilt was your real winner (he came in second) by averaging 50-25. We have proof that you can have a better season than a triple-double. Or, if your argument is that Westbrook keeping the Thunder afloat without Durant gives him the MVP, I'd direct you to Scottie Pippen in 1994, who did not win MVP despite leading the Bulls without MJ to 55 wins. I think we can all agree losing MJ is worse than losing Durant.

- The on/off numbers that favor Westbrook are stupid. It's not Harden's fault that his backup is Eric Gordon and Westbrook's is Semaj Christon (as indicated above, I don't think Eric Gordon is some stud, but he's a very good NBA backup at least and Christon shouldn't be in the league). And if you really care about on/off, LeBron should be your MVP anyway, Cleveland gets something like 14 points worse per 100 without him.

- The "Harden is so bad on defense he shouldn't ever win MVP" argument is ridiculous compared to Westbrook, who has been almost as bad if not just as bad, and mainly uses defense as an excuse to hunt rebounds. He averages 3.6 contested shots per game. That's the fewest among any player who plays at least 28 minutes per game... and he plays 35. Harden averages 8.2, if you were wondering. If you're convinced that an MVP has to play at least average defense, Kawhi is the only option this season. LeBron has simply not tried on defense and Westbrook and Harden are both bad. But Harden is the only one of the three who tries.

- We've spent the past five years complaining about how iso-heavy OKC's offense gets. Well, we've removed all of the non-Westbrook variables. Scottie Brooks coaches a delightfully modern offense in Washington. KD is in one in Golden State. Harden is in one in Washington. ****ing Thabo is in one Atlanta. And yet OKC is still the same offense. I really, truly believe that it is impossible to build a real offensive system with Westbrook within it (maybe Popovich could, but no other could has a chance). I think for that reason, Westbrook holds his teams back. If Adams and Oladipo are bad it's because Westbrook doesn't allow them to be as good as we'd hoped. I'm sorry, but I don't want to reward a player for playing that way. I will never feel comfortable doing that. Maybe I could've with Kobe in 2006 because there were no other good candidates, but I can't do that now when there are three. Westbrook is one of the biggest ball hogs of all time (those assist numbers are somewhat empty, let's be honest with each other), he's stat-hunting to a historically unprecedented degree and it seems that he's gotten his teammates in on the action with him. I just don't think that player can be MVP.

Before you argue for Westbrook, just ask yourself the following three questions:

- If Houston went out of their way to help Harden get rebounds like OKC does for Westbrook, couldn't he average two more rebounds per game?
- If Harden were also averaging a triple double, would you vote for him as MVP?
- If your vote changes, why are two rebounds from a guard particularly important (or, would your opinion change if Westbrook averaged seven rebounds and Harden averaged five?)

I just think when you ask yourself those questions, if you come up with honest answers, Harden is the clear choice.

DanG
04-12-2017, 03:35 AM
PER, WS/48 etc. are just horrible stats to compare players imo.

1) For example Draymond Green, a top 25 player, ranks #108 in PER, #56 in WS/48 and #296 in TS%.

2) Jokic beats KAT in all PER, WS/48 and TS%. Is he a better player?

3) Jimmy Butler:
PER 25.2
TS% .587
WS/48 .233

Paul George:
PER 20.0
TS% .585
WS/48 .123

but actually Butler and PG are pretty equal.

Scoots
04-12-2017, 10:05 AM
- We've spent the past five years complaining about how iso-heavy OKC's offense gets. Well, we've removed all of the non-Westbrook variables. Scottie Brooks coaches a delightfully modern offense in Washington. KD is in one in Golden State. Harden is in one in Washington. ****ing Thabo is in one Atlanta. And yet OKC is still the same offense. I really, truly believe that it is impossible to build a real offensive system with Westbrook within it (maybe Popovich could, but no other could has a chance). I think for that reason, Westbrook holds his teams back. If Adams and Oladipo are bad it's because Westbrook doesn't allow them to be as good as we'd hoped. I'm sorry, but I don't want to reward a player for playing that way. I will never feel comfortable doing that. Maybe I could've with Kobe in 2006 because there were no other good candidates, but I can't do that now when there are three. Westbrook is one of the biggest ball hogs of all time (those assist numbers are somewhat empty, let's be honest with each other), he's stat-hunting to a historically unprecedented degree and it seems that he's gotten his teammates in on the action with him. I just don't think that player can be MVP.


Well said. The guy with the ball has a huge impact on the simple perceived value of the players around him, and Westbrook and LeBron have pushed those perceptions down while Harden has elevated. It's more than just getting assists because all 3 of them do that, but where the passes come from and to and timing and the flow of the offense. I don't like Harden's contact driven offensive game or the 8 seconds of dribbling he'll do, but his team is elevated by his play and the players around him are too.

GREATNESS ONE
04-12-2017, 10:53 AM
Russell Westbrook.

YAALREADYKNO
04-12-2017, 10:57 AM
Co-MVPs

kdspurman
04-12-2017, 12:18 PM
Been seeing folks talk about the possibility of Kawhi winning based off 2nd place votes. That would be something. Mainly around Harden/Russ supporters voting Kawhi 2nd... I can only imagine the meltdown if that happened.

I do think it's silly to announce the winner so late. I think I saw we'll know the Finals MVP before knowing who won the reg season MVP award.

I don't know if there's a wrong choice at this point honestly

mngopher35
04-12-2017, 04:45 PM
PER, WS/48 etc. are just horrible stats to compare players imo.

1) For example Draymond Green, a top 25 player, ranks #108 in PER, #56 in WS/48 and #296 in TS%.

2) Jokic beats KAT in all PER, WS/48 and TS%. Is he a better player?

3) Jimmy Butler:
PER 25.2
TS% .587
WS/48 .233

Paul George:
PER 20.0
TS% .585
WS/48 .123

but actually Butler and PG are pretty equal.

Any stat alone lined up (whether advanced or raw) will have tons of flaws if you line it from top to bottom and assume it orders players exactly right. I do agree however that these two specifically have some bigger issues to me but I will just say it is better to look at everything than nothing so I included them with the others (which all have their own flaws) to give the total picture. The total picture is the key and harping on one number will never be a good argument, however I think it is clear that Westbrook's volume has given him some incredible advanced stats (which I provided the numbers to help show).

PER favors volume and WS are too team reliant for sure along with other issues, we can agree on that. My goal was not to say Westbrook is the top of X statistic so he is better or anything or even say those numbers alone justify him without context.

mngopher35
04-12-2017, 06:55 PM
James Harden is my pick over Russell Westbrook (Kawhi and LeBron were viable MVP candidates in typical years and I'd never hold it against anyone for voting for them, but this year I just felt they were an inch or two behind). Here's why:

- Triple doubles are meaningless. Harden is a more valuable scorer (he takes six fewer field goal attempts to average four fewer points, if you use points per attempt as a measure Westbrook is 16th among the top 20 scorers alone) and a more valuable passer (creates 3.5 more points per game off of assists), and I don't care about Westbrook's rebounding (leads the league in both uncontested rebounds and defensive free throw rebounds by a country mile because his teammates box everyone else out and intentionally let him get them). I don't care about a dumb round number. Several players have averaged 20 combined rebounds and assists (Magic and Rodman post merger, several pre-merger), why do I care how they're split up? Harden is better at two of the three things within triple-doubles anyway and at the very least I think the third thing deserves a massive asterisk for Westbrook. Be honest with yourself.

The triple double in and of itself does not have to be the main reason for Westbrook at all, but it is a storyline if those matter to you when choosing MVP. I will compare more later so I think the only thing that needs to be said here is I am willing to not let triple doubles be a main/real point of discussion and I feel I can argue quite well for Westy over Harden.


- Before the season virtually everyone agreed that Harden's teammates were worse than Westbrook's. Houston's over/under was 41.5 wins and OKC's was 45.5. Houston is going to win 56 games and OKC is going to win 47. ESPN's preseason rankings had three Thunder players (Adams at 36, Oladipo at 48, Kanter at 80) before any non-Harden Rocket. I think the notion that Ryan Anderson or Eric Gordon magically became better players after signing their third contracts is ridiculous. Houston is winning more because Harden is better than Westbrook and because Harden makes his teammates better than Westbrook does. Harden has literally been so good that his teammates aren't allowed to be bad.

Let me ask you why do you think they were ranked that low to start? Is it because maybe they under performed last year with turmoil and became somewhat underrated after a good year previously? Was it possible a team that lost Dwight and added Gordon/Anderson/Dantoni were expected to become the worst defense in the league? Do you think those additions plus Dantoni might be a big reason for a jump in ortg from 7th to 2nd moreso than just HArden being better than Westbrook?

Basically my thoughts are that this team is overperforming on defense is a big reason for their jump and I am not sure I get where Harden is a major influence there. They improved offensively too but given all those additions wasn't it kinda expected they could be better on that end? Also if you want to talk about teammates and a system boosting your numbers or stats this would be the ideal situation to start. Great shooting/spacing is perfect for playmakers like Westy and Harden and Westy doesn't have anything like this offense. OKC has good players in the sense of defense but lack a lot on the other side of the ball which Westy is supposed to carry (like near bottom in 3pt% I think) which should really hamper a players efficiency if their game is attacking based. I think attributing wins to Harden being better than Westy without going into this is similar to just overhyping triple doubles. This is all part of why I have Dantoni as COY too btw.


- I think this is dumb, but it's worth pointing out to those of you who use past MVPs to determine future MVPs. With those two above points in mind, let's remember that there is no precedent that states that Westbrook has to win for either of his two most compelling reasons. Oscar came in third on his triple-double, and if you're arguing that the statistical achievement was so impressive it should've been automatic, then Wilt was your real winner (he came in second) by averaging 50-25. We have proof that you can have a better season than a triple-double. Or, if your argument is that Westbrook keeping the Thunder afloat without Durant gives him the MVP, I'd direct you to Scottie Pippen in 1994, who did not win MVP despite leading the Bulls without MJ to 55 wins. I think we can all agree losing MJ is worse than losing Durant.

I think based on past awards specifically Kawhi might have the best case. I personally like to try and get the actual most impactful player in the RS.


- The on/off numbers that favor Westbrook are stupid. It's not Harden's fault that his backup is Eric Gordon and Westbrook's is Semaj Christon (as indicated above, I don't think Eric Gordon is some stud, but he's a very good NBA backup at least and Christon shouldn't be in the league). And if you really care about on/off, LeBron should be your MVP anyway, Cleveland gets something like 14 points worse per 100 without him.

I don't think the stat alone shows the MVP but I do think it indicates how important Westy is to this OKC team and how Harden/rockets might have more around him to help carry the load. It's not Hardens fault he has that help but it should also be considered when we look at the stats/wins etc. Harden has an easier job and his team seems more prepared to carry the load without him while OKC drops off big time without Westy. The fact the gap is so big at least seems to get behind what people are saying Westy is in the much tougher situation (since they need him more to carry the load or they fall off huge).



- The "Harden is so bad on defense he shouldn't ever win MVP" argument is ridiculous compared to Westbrook, who has been almost as bad if not just as bad, and mainly uses defense as an excuse to hunt rebounds. He averages 3.6 contested shots per game. That's the fewest among any player who plays at least 28 minutes per game... and he plays 35. Harden averages 8.2, if you were wondering. If you're convinced that an MVP has to play at least average defense, Kawhi is the only option this season. LeBron has simply not tried on defense and Westbrook and Harden are both bad. But Harden is the only one of the three who tries.

Defense should not be a factor either way really here imo, seems like we agree.


- We've spent the past five years complaining about how iso-heavy OKC's offense gets. Well, we've removed all of the non-Westbrook variables. Scottie Brooks coaches a delightfully modern offense in Washington. KD is in one in Golden State. Harden is in one in Washington. ****ing Thabo is in one Atlanta. And yet OKC is still the same offense. I really, truly believe that it is impossible to build a real offensive system with Westbrook within it (maybe Popovich could, but no other could has a chance). I think for that reason, Westbrook holds his teams back. If Adams and Oladipo are bad it's because Westbrook doesn't allow them to be as good as we'd hoped. I'm sorry, but I don't want to reward a player for playing that way. I will never feel comfortable doing that. Maybe I could've with Kobe in 2006 because there were no other good candidates, but I can't do that now when there are three. Westbrook is one of the biggest ball hogs of all time (those assist numbers are somewhat empty, let's be honest with each other), he's stat-hunting to a historically unprecedented degree and it seems that he's gotten his teammates in on the action with him. I just don't think that player can be MVP.

Look at the tracking data of holding the ball etc between Westy, Harden, and since you mention Washington Wall as well. It isn't like Westy is just taking the ball the entire 24, they have similar tracking data in the situations. I agree Westy has a flaw of doing a bit too much bit in this case it isn't hurting the team as much because of how bad they need it. Either way I don't think he is some insane level ballhog and the tracking data seems to agree.


Data:

Touches:
Westy:100.2
Harden:99.3
Wall:88.3

Time of poss:
All at 8.9

avg sec per touch:
Wall 6.02
Harden 5.4
Westbrook 5.34


Before you argue for Westbrook, just ask yourself the following three questions:

- If Houston went out of their way to help Harden get rebounds like OKC does for Westbrook, couldn't he average two more rebounds per game?
- If Harden were also averaging a triple double, would you vote for him as MVP?
- If your vote changes, why are two rebounds from a guard particularly important (or, would your opinion change if Westbrook averaged seven rebounds and Harden averaged five?)

I just think when you ask yourself those questions, if you come up with honest answers, Harden is the clear choice.

As I told you the triple double isn't a big factor for me. Harden did have a jump himself this year in reb% though not as big as Westy should we consider taking some of his away? What about the efficiency/opportunities the spacing/teammates/Dantoni system help on his points/assists/TS%/ortg? I say we take 10% off each and 2.5 rebounds from Westy if you insist, fair?

Ok I was being ridiculous but that is basically what the people complaining about the rebounds/triple double sound like to me. Yes Westy is getting the benefit of a couple more easy rebounds that normally go to bigs. The bigger advantage between them is the cast/system if we want to talk about their stats and wins not a couple of rebounds. Yes now it is getting overhyped but I have heard very few people even talking about Hardens advantages at all which are far more significant. Mostly people downgrading a person getting a record many said would never happen (probably a thread on Lebron doing it somewhere we can confirm lol) because his system gave him a boost with a couple rebounds.

Westbrook to me has had the best season based off impact (and numbers seem to back that up compared to Harden) and he has also carried an insane load like we have pretty much never seen (at least I haven't). I think people are overlooking the advantages for Harden in that system and the fact it is their defense not dropping but actually improving from last year as a big part of their improvement in record (while the offensive improvement could be more predicted with Anderson/Gordon/Dantoni and now Lou). That spacing and system is just a perfect fit to rack up stats and do so efficiently to me moreso than a couple rebounds Westy gets while having clogged lanes and less other options to helps carry the load on that end.

FlashBolt
04-13-2017, 02:47 AM
who agrees that the better performer in the series should be the MVP? fck it, huh?

HandsOnTheWheel
04-13-2017, 04:40 AM
^Just made a post in the other thread about this. Agreed, it's just too close to call.

Jamiecballer
04-13-2017, 05:08 PM
James Harden is my pick over Russell Westbrook (Kawhi and LeBron were viable MVP candidates in typical years and I'd never hold it against anyone for voting for them, but this year I just felt they were an inch or two behind). Here's why:

- Triple doubles are meaningless. Harden is a more valuable scorer (he takes six fewer field goal attempts to average four fewer points, if you use points per attempt as a measure Westbrook is 16th among the top 20 scorers alone) and a more valuable passer (creates 3.5 more points per game off of assists), and I don't care about Westbrook's rebounding (leads the league in both uncontested rebounds and defensive free throw rebounds by a country mile because his teammates box everyone else out and intentionally let him get them). I don't care about a dumb round number. Several players have averaged 20 combined rebounds and assists (Magic and Rodman post merger, several pre-merger), why do I care how they're split up? Harden is better at two of the three things within triple-doubles anyway and at the very least I think the third thing deserves a massive asterisk for Westbrook. Be honest with yourself.

- Before the season virtually everyone agreed that Harden's teammates were worse than Westbrook's. Houston's over/under was 41.5 wins and OKC's was 45.5. Houston is going to win 56 games and OKC is going to win 47. ESPN's preseason rankings had three Thunder players (Adams at 36, Oladipo at 48, Kanter at 80) before any non-Harden Rocket. I think the notion that Ryan Anderson or Eric Gordon magically became better players after signing their third contracts is ridiculous. Houston is winning more because Harden is better than Westbrook and because Harden makes his teammates better than Westbrook does. Harden has literally been so good that his teammates aren't allowed to be bad.

- I think this is dumb, but it's worth pointing out to those of you who use past MVPs to determine future MVPs. With those two above points in mind, let's remember that there is no precedent that states that Westbrook has to win for either of his two most compelling reasons. Oscar came in third on his triple-double, and if you're arguing that the statistical achievement was so impressive it should've been automatic, then Wilt was your real winner (he came in second) by averaging 50-25. We have proof that you can have a better season than a triple-double. Or, if your argument is that Westbrook keeping the Thunder afloat without Durant gives him the MVP, I'd direct you to Scottie Pippen in 1994, who did not win MVP despite leading the Bulls without MJ to 55 wins. I think we can all agree losing MJ is worse than losing Durant.

- The on/off numbers that favor Westbrook are stupid. It's not Harden's fault that his backup is Eric Gordon and Westbrook's is Semaj Christon (as indicated above, I don't think Eric Gordon is some stud, but he's a very good NBA backup at least and Christon shouldn't be in the league). And if you really care about on/off, LeBron should be your MVP anyway, Cleveland gets something like 14 points worse per 100 without him.

- The "Harden is so bad on defense he shouldn't ever win MVP" argument is ridiculous compared to Westbrook, who has been almost as bad if not just as bad, and mainly uses defense as an excuse to hunt rebounds. He averages 3.6 contested shots per game. That's the fewest among any player who plays at least 28 minutes per game... and he plays 35. Harden averages 8.2, if you were wondering. If you're convinced that an MVP has to play at least average defense, Kawhi is the only option this season. LeBron has simply not tried on defense and Westbrook and Harden are both bad. But Harden is the only one of the three who tries.

- We've spent the past five years complaining about how iso-heavy OKC's offense gets. Well, we've removed all of the non-Westbrook variables. Scottie Brooks coaches a delightfully modern offense in Washington. KD is in one in Golden State. Harden is in one in Washington. ****ing Thabo is in one Atlanta. And yet OKC is still the same offense. I really, truly believe that it is impossible to build a real offensive system with Westbrook within it (maybe Popovich could, but no other could has a chance). I think for that reason, Westbrook holds his teams back. If Adams and Oladipo are bad it's because Westbrook doesn't allow them to be as good as we'd hoped. I'm sorry, but I don't want to reward a player for playing that way. I will never feel comfortable doing that. Maybe I could've with Kobe in 2006 because there were no other good candidates, but I can't do that now when there are three. Westbrook is one of the biggest ball hogs of all time (those assist numbers are somewhat empty, let's be honest with each other), he's stat-hunting to a historically unprecedented degree and it seems that he's gotten his teammates in on the action with him. I just don't think that player can be MVP.

Before you argue for Westbrook, just ask yourself the following three questions:

- If Houston went out of their way to help Harden get rebounds like OKC does for Westbrook, couldn't he average two more rebounds per game?
- If Harden were also averaging a triple double, would you vote for him as MVP?
- If your vote changes, why are two rebounds from a guard particularly important (or, would your opinion change if Westbrook averaged seven rebounds and Harden averaged five?)

I just think when you ask yourself those questions, if you come up with honest answers, Harden is the clear choice.

Could not agree more. The triple double thing is now a farce.

Jamiecballer
04-13-2017, 05:19 PM
The triple double in and of itself does not have to be the main reason for Westbrook at all, but it is a storyline if those matter to you when choosing MVP. I will compare more later so I think the only thing that needs to be said here is I am willing to not let triple doubles be a main/real point of discussion and I feel I can argue quite well for Westy over Harden.



Let me ask you why do you think they were ranked that low to start? Is it because maybe they under performed last year with turmoil and became somewhat underrated after a good year previously? Was it possible a team that lost Dwight and added Gordon/Anderson/Dantoni were expected to become the worst defense in the league? Do you think those additions plus Dantoni might be a big reason for a jump in ortg from 7th to 2nd moreso than just HArden being better than Westbrook?

Basically my thoughts are that this team is overperforming on defense is a big reason for their jump and I am not sure I get where Harden is a major influence there. They improved offensively too but given all those additions wasn't it kinda expected they could be better on that end? Also if you want to talk about teammates and a system boosting your numbers or stats this would be the ideal situation to start. Great shooting/spacing is perfect for playmakers like Westy and Harden and Westy doesn't have anything like this offense. OKC has good players in the sense of defense but lack a lot on the other side of the ball which Westy is supposed to carry (like near bottom in 3pt% I think) which should really hamper a players efficiency if their game is attacking based. I think attributing wins to Harden being better than Westy without going into this is similar to just overhyping triple doubles. This is all part of why I have Dantoni as COY too btw.



I think based on past awards specifically Kawhi might have the best case. I personally like to try and get the actual most impactful player in the RS.



I don't think the stat alone shows the MVP but I do think it indicates how important Westy is to this OKC team and how Harden/rockets might have more around him to help carry the load. It's not Hardens fault he has that help but it should also be considered when we look at the stats/wins etc. Harden has an easier job and his team seems more prepared to carry the load without him while OKC drops off big time without Westy. The fact the gap is so big at least seems to get behind what people are saying Westy is in the much tougher situation (since they need him more to carry the load or they fall off huge).




Defense should not be a factor either way really here imo, seems like we agree.



Look at the tracking data of holding the ball etc between Westy, Harden, and since you mention Washington Wall as well. It isn't like Westy is just taking the ball the entire 24, they have similar tracking data in the situations. I agree Westy has a flaw of doing a bit too much bit in this case it isn't hurting the team as much because of how bad they need it. Either way I don't think he is some insane level ballhog and the tracking data seems to agree.


Data:

Touches:
Westy:100.2
Harden:99.3
Wall:88.3

Time of poss:
All at 8.9

avg sec per touch:
Wall 6.02
Harden 5.4
Westbrook 5.34



As I told you the triple double isn't a big factor for me. Harden did have a jump himself this year in reb% though not as big as Westy should we consider taking some of his away? What about the efficiency/opportunities the spacing/teammates/Dantoni system help on his points/assists/TS%/ortg? I say we take 10% off each and 2.5 rebounds from Westy if you insist, fair?

Ok I was being ridiculous but that is basically what the people complaining about the rebounds/triple double sound like to me. Yes Westy is getting the benefit of a couple more easy rebounds that normally go to bigs. The bigger advantage between them is the cast/system if we want to talk about their stats and wins not a couple of rebounds. Yes now it is getting overhyped but I have heard very few people even talking about Hardens advantages at all which are far more significant. Mostly people downgrading a person getting a record many said would never happen (probably a thread on Lebron doing it somewhere we can confirm lol) because his system gave him a boost with a couple rebounds.

Westbrook to me has had the best season based off impact (and numbers seem to back that up compared to Harden) and he has also carried an insane load like we have pretty much never seen (at least I haven't). I think people are overlooking the advantages for Harden in that system and the fact it is their defense not dropping but actually improving from last year as a big part of their improvement in record (while the offensive improvement could be more predicted with Anderson/Gordon/Dantoni and now Lou). That spacing and system is just a perfect fit to rack up stats and do so efficiently to me moreso than a couple rebounds Westy gets while having clogged lanes and less other options to helps carry the load on that end.

why do you say 'people downgrading a person getting a record many said would never happened' like that means something. i'm sure those who said it would never happen did not think that they needed to add "unless a guy is given freebies every game and completely abandons contesting shots". because that's what you have to ignore to consider it to be a legit triple double.

More-Than-Most
04-13-2017, 06:20 PM
I dont want the ******** cop out of co Mvps... If thats the case just make it 4 way mvp right? Its ********... its the most valuable player AWARD... Not awards... Never liked co mvp ********... their not equally deserving... pick and move on if you are the writers.

mngopher35
04-13-2017, 06:53 PM
why do you say 'people downgrading a person getting a record many said would never happened' like that means something. i'm sure those who said it would never happen did not think that they needed to add "unless a guy is given freebies every game and completely abandons contesting shots". because that's what you have to ignore to consider it to be a legit triple double.

It was a legit triple double, to consider it not you have to arbitrarily make up your own criteria...

Systems benefit players all of the time in the nba, yes it was definitely easier for him in one sense because his team clearly gave him all the free rebounds and he took plays off defensively etc. (Harden isn't immune to these things). He also doesn't have a great offensive cast like some other teams making other aspects like scoring/assisting harder and him needing to do more there. Those players get those advantages towards their game/stats etc and that is how it works for everyone. Even earlier this year many people were saying he couldn't sustain it.

In the end he got the record whether you call it legit or not. That is why people might say that.

Jamiecballer
04-13-2017, 07:19 PM
It was a legit triple double, to consider it not you have to arbitrarily make up your own criteria...

Systems benefit players all of the time in the nba, yes it was definitely easier for him in one sense because his team clearly gave him all the free rebounds and he took plays off defensively etc. (Harden isn't immune to these things). He also doesn't have a great offensive cast like some other teams making other aspects like scoring/assisting harder and him needing to do more there. Those players get those advantages towards their game/stats etc and that is how it works for everyone. Even earlier this year many people were saying he couldn't sustain it.

In the end he got the record whether you call it legit or not. That is why people might say that.

we will have to agree to disagree. i consider his rebounding total much in the same way i view Bonds and his 73 home runs. it happened - but that's about i call say about that.

mngopher35
04-13-2017, 07:23 PM
Like it doesn't have to be the most impressive record or anything but no need to bash him for it etc. It's just hilarious. He got the triple double and people seem mad that some are impressed.

It's not the best season ever or anything but his crazy volume this year has been very impressive and this stat highlights that. My post didn't focus on that at all anyways which was the point, it doesn't need to be the deciding factor for MVP but it was still an impressive feat.

mngopher35
04-13-2017, 07:32 PM
we will have to agree to disagree. i consider his rebounding total much in the same way i view Bonds and his 73 home runs. it happened - but that's about i call say about that.

Didn't see this when I posted but that's fine if we can disagree on just the value of it.

His team performed much better when he got them, his team fell apart without him on the court, and when he left the court the rebound rate for the team dropped. He got a triple double with some boosted rebounds due to his system just like Hardens overall numbers (including rebounds) this year were boosted by his (or do you not take his numbers seriously either, I guess I am fine if you have the same standards across the board?). My guess is it is only Westbrook who gets the arbitrary knock.


Edit: What about Oscars due to pace does that count?


Contested rebound rate (all with 5+ rpg):
CP3 17.2
PG 19.5
Westy 20.6
Harden 21.2
Durant 23.6
Lebron 24.7

Jamiecballer
04-13-2017, 08:13 PM
Like it doesn't have to be the most impressive record or anything but no need to bash him for it etc. It's just hilarious. He got the triple double and people seem mad that some are impressed.

It's not the best season ever or anything but his crazy volume this year has been very impressive and this stat highlights that. My post didn't focus on that at all anyways which was the point, it doesn't need to be the deciding factor for MVP but it was still an impressive feat.

there hasn't been a single person bash him for it. not a single one.

mngopher35
04-13-2017, 08:46 PM
there hasn't been a single person bash him for it. not a single one.

Sorry, whine about it?

I don't know what you want to call it when you won't even acknowledge it as legitimate...

Scoots
04-13-2017, 11:48 PM
Whichever doesn't win will win the "real" MVP, the players award.

Jeffy25
04-14-2017, 01:46 AM
James Harden is my pick over Russell Westbrook (Kawhi and LeBron were viable MVP candidates in typical years and I'd never hold it against anyone for voting for them, but this year I just felt they were an inch or two behind). Here's why:

- Triple doubles are meaningless. Harden is a more valuable scorer (he takes six fewer field goal attempts to average four fewer points, if you use points per attempt as a measure Westbrook is 16th among the top 20 scorers alone) and a more valuable passer (creates 3.5 more points per game off of assists), and I don't care about Westbrook's rebounding (leads the league in both uncontested rebounds and defensive free throw rebounds by a country mile because his teammates box everyone else out and intentionally let him get them). I don't care about a dumb round number. Several players have averaged 20 combined rebounds and assists (Magic and Rodman post merger, several pre-merger), why do I care how they're split up? Harden is better at two of the three things within triple-doubles anyway and at the very least I think the third thing deserves a massive asterisk for Westbrook. Be honest with yourself.

- Before the season virtually everyone agreed that Harden's teammates were worse than Westbrook's. Houston's over/under was 41.5 wins and OKC's was 45.5. Houston is going to win 56 games and OKC is going to win 47. ESPN's preseason rankings had three Thunder players (Adams at 36, Oladipo at 48, Kanter at 80) before any non-Harden Rocket. I think the notion that Ryan Anderson or Eric Gordon magically became better players after signing their third contracts is ridiculous. Houston is winning more because Harden is better than Westbrook and because Harden makes his teammates better than Westbrook does. Harden has literally been so good that his teammates aren't allowed to be bad.

- I think this is dumb, but it's worth pointing out to those of you who use past MVPs to determine future MVPs. With those two above points in mind, let's remember that there is no precedent that states that Westbrook has to win for either of his two most compelling reasons. Oscar came in third on his triple-double, and if you're arguing that the statistical achievement was so impressive it should've been automatic, then Wilt was your real winner (he came in second) by averaging 50-25. We have proof that you can have a better season than a triple-double. Or, if your argument is that Westbrook keeping the Thunder afloat without Durant gives him the MVP, I'd direct you to Scottie Pippen in 1994, who did not win MVP despite leading the Bulls without MJ to 55 wins. I think we can all agree losing MJ is worse than losing Durant.

- The on/off numbers that favor Westbrook are stupid. It's not Harden's fault that his backup is Eric Gordon and Westbrook's is Semaj Christon (as indicated above, I don't think Eric Gordon is some stud, but he's a very good NBA backup at least and Christon shouldn't be in the league). And if you really care about on/off, LeBron should be your MVP anyway, Cleveland gets something like 14 points worse per 100 without him.

- The "Harden is so bad on defense he shouldn't ever win MVP" argument is ridiculous compared to Westbrook, who has been almost as bad if not just as bad, and mainly uses defense as an excuse to hunt rebounds. He averages 3.6 contested shots per game. That's the fewest among any player who plays at least 28 minutes per game... and he plays 35. Harden averages 8.2, if you were wondering. If you're convinced that an MVP has to play at least average defense, Kawhi is the only option this season. LeBron has simply not tried on defense and Westbrook and Harden are both bad. But Harden is the only one of the three who tries.

- We've spent the past five years complaining about how iso-heavy OKC's offense gets. Well, we've removed all of the non-Westbrook variables. Scottie Brooks coaches a delightfully modern offense in Washington. KD is in one in Golden State. Harden is in one in Washington. ****ing Thabo is in one Atlanta. And yet OKC is still the same offense. I really, truly believe that it is impossible to build a real offensive system with Westbrook within it (maybe Popovich could, but no other could has a chance). I think for that reason, Westbrook holds his teams back. If Adams and Oladipo are bad it's because Westbrook doesn't allow them to be as good as we'd hoped. I'm sorry, but I don't want to reward a player for playing that way. I will never feel comfortable doing that. Maybe I could've with Kobe in 2006 because there were no other good candidates, but I can't do that now when there are three. Westbrook is one of the biggest ball hogs of all time (those assist numbers are somewhat empty, let's be honest with each other), he's stat-hunting to a historically unprecedented degree and it seems that he's gotten his teammates in on the action with him. I just don't think that player can be MVP.

Before you argue for Westbrook, just ask yourself the following three questions:

- If Houston went out of their way to help Harden get rebounds like OKC does for Westbrook, couldn't he average two more rebounds per game?
- If Harden were also averaging a triple double, would you vote for him as MVP?
- If your vote changes, why are two rebounds from a guard particularly important (or, would your opinion change if Westbrook averaged seven rebounds and Harden averaged five?)

I just think when you ask yourself those questions, if you come up with honest answers, Harden is the clear choice.

These are great points

More-Than-Most
04-14-2017, 02:31 AM
Sorry but I cant award an MVP to a player as bad on defense as harden whom was saved by a run/gun system that relies on the other team being tired and missing wide open shots instead of actual defense or just out scoring the other opponent and relying on said missed shots.


There isnt a person here if you had to pick a defender between harden/westy to defend a basket with your life on the line would choose harden.

Htownballa1622
04-14-2017, 09:56 AM
Sorry but I cant award an MVP to a player as bad on defense as harden whom was saved by a run/gun system that relies on the other team being tired and missing wide open shots instead of actual defense or just out scoring the other opponent and relying on said missed shots.


There isnt a person here if you had to pick a defender between harden/westy to defend a basket with your life on the line would choose harden.

:facepalm:

Htownballa1622
04-14-2017, 10:01 AM
The fact that media I respect(Matt Moore, Bill Simmons, Zach Lowe) had Harden ahead of westbrook(Lowe had harden 2 and westbrook 3) makes me feel a little better.

Most Espn ppl and ppl like Chris Broussard have Westbrook. That tells me all I need to know about who the voters are that are choosing Westbrook.

Jamiecballer
04-14-2017, 10:20 AM
Sorry, whine about it?

I don't know what you want to call it when you won't even acknowledge it as legitimate...

bashing him would be saying that he was doing something wrong by following the gameplan which is clearly to get the ball in his hands immediately at every opportunity. i don't blame him in the least for that. why should i? his coach has identified a strategy that puts immediate pressure on the other team.

other teams that want to push have emphasized immediately triggering a pass to the point guard to start advancing and putting pressure immediately on the defense. i credit Donovan for making a brilliant distinction - that it's more advantageous to just allow him to pick up the ball himself than it is for the big to have to secure the ball and parse the defense to make the pass, something that both invites turnover or can even be denied if the pass isn't there. brilliant call by Donovan. has any other team done this before? i don't know. unfortunately uncontested rebound % is something we can only go back so far on.

here is what we do know though. Russell Westbrook was always considered a good rebounder for a point guard, borderline very good. but the last 3 seasons averages of 7.3, 7.8 and particularly this years 10.7 have elevated him in the eyes of most fans to all-time great for his position.

but guess what? it's completely false, his prowess as a rebounder is a complete work of fiction. you have to go back 4 years to find a season in which Westbrook was not amongst the leagues leaders in uncontested rebounds a game, a point guard alone in a sea of bigs on that list.

MOST UNCONTESTED REBOUNDS PER GAME BY GUARDS - in brackets place among league leaders

2016-17:
1. Russell Westbrook - 8.5 (1st)
2. James Harden - 6.4 (15th)
2. Avery Bradley - 4.7 (34th)

2015-16:
1. Russell Westbrook - 5.9 (16th)
2. Rajon Rondo - 5.0 (t29th)
3. Nicolas Batum - 5.0 (t29th)

2014-15:
1. Russell Westbrook - 5.4 (15th)
2. Nicolas Batum - 4.6 (t36th)
3. Ricky Rubio - 4.6 (t36th)

2013-14:
Russell Westbrook - 4.3 (52nd)

We can see from the data that this stategy of getting the ball into Westbrooks hands immediately has pretty much been going on for 3 seasons, incidentally the same time his rebounding jumped to super hero level and his usage started to go off the charts.

I don't care about Westbrook. I honestly only care about the sanctity of records, the importance of stats and how they tell an honest story. When we say "that guy is an amazing player, he can score, he is a great rebounder, he is a great passer, i wonder if one day he could be the guy who finally did it, who finally averaged a triple double", i don't know about you but i'm imagining a guy doing it because he's a special player in all three facets. that's what makes it such a special accomplishment, what makes it seem heroic, but it is quite evidently not what has happened here.

Donovan has just put the strategy that Brooks developed to the next level, that shouldn't make someone an MVP.

Jamiecballer
04-14-2017, 10:23 AM
Sorry but I cant award an MVP to a player as bad on defense as harden whom was saved by a run/gun system that relies on the other team being tired and missing wide open shots instead of actual defense or just out scoring the other opponent and relying on said missed shots.


There isnt a person here if you had to pick a defender between harden/westy to defend a basket with your life on the line would choose harden.

are you just willing to ignore the fact that Westbrook simply has given up on actually defending or contesting shots? If so, might i ask why? i mean, sure, if you took me out on the driveway and asked me to try and score and said who would you like to be defended by, I probably would take Westbrook. but why should that matter in an NBA game where the easiest shot is an uncontested one, not one defended poorly.

Htownballa1622
04-14-2017, 10:36 AM
https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

good read

Scoots
04-14-2017, 10:44 AM
Sorry but I cant award an MVP to a player as bad on defense as harden whom was saved by a run/gun system that relies on the other team being tired and missing wide open shots instead of actual defense or just out scoring the other opponent and relying on said missed shots.


There isnt a person here if you had to pick a defender between harden/westy to defend a basket with your life on the line would choose harden.

This year? I'd choose Harden ... Westy would be 15 feet away facing the other way waiting for the rebound.

mngopher35
04-14-2017, 10:48 AM
Sorry, whine about it?

I don't know what you want to call it when you won't even acknowledge it as legitimate...

bashing him would be saying that he was doing something wrong by following the gameplan which is clearly to get the ball in his hands immediately at every opportunity. i don't blame him in the least for that. why should i? his coach has identified a strategy that puts immediate pressure on the other team.

other teams that want to push have emphasized immediately triggering a pass to the point guard to start advancing and putting pressure immediately on the defense. i credit Donovan for making a brilliant distinction - that it's more advantageous to just allow him to pick up the ball himself than it is for the big to have to secure the ball and parse the defense to make the pass, something that both invites turnover or can even be denied if the pass isn't there. brilliant call by Donovan. has any other team done this before? i don't know. unfortunately uncontested rebound % is something we can only go back so far on.

here is what we do know though. Russell Westbrook was always considered a good rebounder for a point guard, borderline very good. but the last 3 seasons averages of 7.3, 7.8 and particularly this years 10.7 have elevated him in the eyes of most fans to all-time great for his position.

but guess what? it's completely false, his prowess as a rebounder is a complete work of fiction. you have to go back 4 years to find a season in which Westbrook was not amongst the leagues leaders in uncontested rebounds a game, a point guard alone in a sea of bigs on that list.

MOST UNCONTESTED REBOUNDS PER GAME BY GUARDS - in brackets place among league leaders

2016-17:
1. Russell Westbrook - 8.5 (1st)
2. James Harden - 6.4 (15th)
2. Avery Bradley - 4.7 (34th)

2015-16:
1. Russell Westbrook - 5.9 (16th)
2. Rajon Rondo - 5.0 (t29th)
3. Nicolas Batum - 5.0 (t29th)

2014-15:
1. Russell Westbrook - 5.4 (15th)
2. Nicolas Batum - 4.6 (t36th)
3. Ricky Rubio - 4.6 (t36th)

2013-14:
Russell Westbrook - 4.3 (52nd)

We can see from the data that this stategy of getting the ball into Westbrooks hands immediately has pretty much been going on for 3 seasons, incidentally the same time his rebounding jumped to super hero level and his usage started to go off the charts.

I don't care about Westbrook. I honestly only care about the sanctity of records, the importance of stats and how they tell an honest story. When we say "that guy is an amazing player, he can score, he is a great rebounder, he is a great passer, i wonder if one day he could be the guy who finally did it, who finally averaged a triple double", i don't know about you but i'm imagining a guy doing it because he's a special player in all three facets. that's what makes it such a special accomplishment, what makes it seem heroic, but it is quite evidently not what has happened here.

Donovan has just put the strategy that Brooks developed to the next level, that shouldn't make someone an MVP.

I have already shown you the % of uncontested to other players and he fits right in with some stars. Yes he attacks the board more often and has more total incontested but his uncontested rate is right in line with harden who most are comparing him to. In fact notice how harden jumps up there too.

You seem to understand it's a strategy the team is using so why is it only Westbrook who is looked at negatively or has his numbers not acknowledged? Essentially for being a high volume player because again I showed his rate compared to some other stars.

You skipped a post of mine with the rebound rate and a couple questions but I think I am getting my answer.

Jamiecballer
04-14-2017, 01:55 PM
I have already shown you the % of uncontested to other players and he fits right in with some stars. Yes he attacks the board more often and has more total incontested but his uncontested rate is right in line with harden who most are comparing him to. In fact notice how harden jumps up there too.

You seem to understand it's a strategy the team is using so why is it only Westbrook who is looked at negatively or has his numbers not acknowledged? Essentially for being a high volume player because again I showed his rate compared to some other stars.

You skipped a post of mine with the rebound rate and a couple questions but I think I am getting my answer.
Well, you showed contested rebound percentage, which further demonstrates the inequity here quite nicely. Nobody has ever suggested he isn't trying to get rebounds have they?

I do agree Harden has also been benefitting from a similar but less overt strategy

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mngopher35
04-14-2017, 02:09 PM
I have already shown you the % of uncontested to other players and he fits right in with some stars. Yes he attacks the board more often and has more total incontested but his uncontested rate is right in line with harden who most are comparing him to. In fact notice how harden jumps up there too.

You seem to understand it's a strategy the team is using so why is it only Westbrook who is looked at negatively or has his numbers not acknowledged? Essentially for being a high volume player because again I showed his rate compared to some other stars.

You skipped a post of mine with the rebound rate and a couple questions but I think I am getting my answer.
Well, you showed contested rebound percentage, which further demonstrates the inequity here quite nicely. Nobody has ever suggested he isn't trying to get rebounds have they?

I do agree Harden has also been benefitting from a similar but less overt strategy

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You just pointed out his uncontested rebounds which many people have pointed out too, yes. I am showing that number as a rate compared to other stars, efficiency matters right? Westbrook gets more total rebounds but his uncontested rebound % is right in line with others it's just the volume that's different.

I am showing that the rate at which he gets uncontested rebounds to his total number is right in line with other stars like cp3, pg, harden, lebron etc in that post. It's directly related lol it is the rate version of the stat you mentioned.

Jamiecballer
04-14-2017, 08:13 PM
You just pointed out his uncontested rebounds which many people have pointed out too, yes. I am showing that number as a rate compared to other stars, efficiency matters right? Westbrook gets more total rebounds but his uncontested rebound % is right in line with others it's just the volume that's different.

I am showing that the rate at which he gets uncontested rebounds to his total number is right in line with other stars like cp3, pg, harden, lebron etc in that post. It's directly related lol it is the rate version of the stat you mentioned.
All it shows is that he's a good defensive rebounder, something we already knew. But notice how his rate has steadily declined in this area even as his totals go through the roof. Hmmm. From 27, to 25, plummeting this year to 20.6.

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mngopher35
04-14-2017, 08:55 PM
It shows us that he is not getting uncontested rebounds at some crazy rate, it's right in line with those guys. The difference for westy this year for everything (except defense lol) is volume of what he is asked to do with that motor. He is right in line with those guys despite that decline.

It's a legit triple double, it's not the main reason to vote MVP though.

Jamiecballer
04-15-2017, 08:58 AM
It shows us that he is not getting uncontested rebounds at some crazy rate, it's right in line with those guys. The difference for westy this year for everything (except defense lol) is volume of what he is asked to do with that motor. He is right in line with those guys despite that decline.

It's a legit triple double, it's not the main reason to vote MVP though.
Uhhh, no it does not indicate that at all, it indicates exactly what I said, that despite all the gifts he's a very good defensive rebounder.

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JDow
04-15-2017, 09:26 AM
The MVP isn't going to be announced until June 26th and a lot of voters have said they are waiting until the last possible minutes to make a decision.. This first round series could sway some votes. I would personally vote for Russ- Averaged a Triple Double in less than 35 minutes of play and the final stretch he was unbelievable with the comebacks.

I completely get that Harden led his team to a better record and higher seed, but it isn't like Russ led the Thunder to a 20 win season. I could see a Co-MVP, which I can not stand. I am to competitive of a person to have a Co-MVP. If voters think it is that close let the playoff series decide it.

mngopher35
04-15-2017, 09:51 AM
It shows us that he is not getting uncontested rebounds at some crazy rate, it's right in line with those guys. The difference for westy this year for everything (except defense lol) is volume of what he is asked to do with that motor. He is right in line with those guys despite that decline.

It's a legit triple double, it's not the main reason to vote MVP though.
Uhhh, no it does not indicate that at all, it indicates exactly what I said, that despite all the gifts he's a very good defensive rebounder.

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Alright, it's right there on the same stats page I'll just leave it at that. His "gifts"come at the same rate as many other stars and I have shown that. You only seem to have a problem with one guy getting a system advantage (to a lesser degree than others overall as stated). I looked up that other thread and realized your the same one who got called out there, I don't think we will agree when it comes to your thoughts on westy.

Scoots
04-15-2017, 10:28 AM
The MVP isn't going to be announced until June 26th and a lot of voters have said they are waiting until the last possible minutes to make a decision.. This first round series could sway some votes. I would personally vote for Russ- Averaged a Triple Double in less than 35 minutes of play and the final stretch he was unbelievable with the comebacks.

I completely get that Harden led his team to a better record and higher seed, but it isn't like Russ led the Thunder to a 20 win season. I could see a Co-MVP, which I can not stand. I am to competitive of a person to have a Co-MVP. If voters think it is that close let the playoff series decide it.

I think the vote is already in, they are just holding the announcement. But who knows they changed a bunch about the awards this year.

Jamiecballer
04-15-2017, 01:32 PM
Alright, it's right there on the same stats page I'll just leave it at that. His "gifts"come at the same rate as many other stars and I have shown that. You only seem to have a problem with one guy getting a system advantage (to a lesser degree than others overall as stated). I looked up that other thread and realized your the same one who got called out there, I don't think we will agree when it comes to your thoughts on westy.
The problem is not the numbers but how you are interpreting them. To say that his gifts come at the same rate because of a similar contested rate is a complete falsehood. What it is illustrates, as I already pointed out, is that because he is a superior defensive rebounder to those guys you are comparing, it results in a comparable contested rebound percentage.

You are misusing a statistic to show that he has not benefitted disproportionately to other stars, and it is completely false.

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GREATNESS ONE
04-15-2017, 02:20 PM
who agrees that the better performer in the series should be the MVP? fck it, huh?

Should be the tie-breaker, it's the only series that looks awesome this round.

mngopher35
04-15-2017, 02:57 PM
The problem is not the numbers but how you are interpreting them. To say that his gifts come at the same rate because of a similar contested rate is a complete falsehood. What it is illustrates, as I already pointed out, is that because he is a superior defensive rebounder to those guys you are comparing, it results in a comparable contested rebound percentage.

His uncontested rebounds do come at the same rate, that's what the stat measures (and thats what I have been claiming).

Arguing that him being a superior defensive rebounder is why his rate is closer doesn't change the actual rate. It's a subjective statement and while I can agree it doesn't change what that stat measures nor is him being a good defensive rebounder helping your point.




You are misusing a statistic to show that he has not benefitted disproportionately to other stars, and it is completely false.

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I am sorry but looking at the entire picture is what we should be doing, don't pick and choose your stats based on bias while ignoring others. If I said Westy is clearly a better scorer because he scored more ppg than anyone in the league this year I would hope people bring up efficiency etc. It goes against your point though so you I get you want to ignore it.

You want to know who is right below Westy in uncontested rebounds? Deandre Jordan. Next it's Whiteside. So do we downgrade their stats too or do we realize that being high in that single stat says more about your volume of rebounds total than just uncontested in general. It is the fact Westy has half their % (what you want to ignore) that is the key here to separate them not the total volume and we should never just ignore that it would be ridiculous on any type of stat. So while Westy might be benefiting more this year from the system, once again it doesn't put him on some incredible rate of easy rebounds in comparison just right in line with other stars but at a higher volume.

Again I totally agree that Westy is benefiting from a system to get extra rebounds, systems benefit players and you admit this one works for them (I am pointing out how it compares to other stars though, yes that is important). What you have yet to do is give any solid reasoning why it isn't a legit triple double. Despite those extra rebounds as I have pointed out Westy is still right in line with other stars rate wise because as you say he is a good rebounder (pretty sure thats a good thing). The pace Oscar played at was a big advantage so I will ask again if his counts to you? I will ask again is it fair to use the system argument on Harden and take say 10% or so off his efficiency/assists etc because of the system?

Or do we subjectively pick and choose only when it comes to Westbrook?

rhino17
04-15-2017, 04:01 PM
The MVP isn't going to be announced until June 26th and a lot of voters have said they are waiting until the last possible minutes to make a decision.. This first round series could sway some votes. I would personally vote for Russ- Averaged a Triple Double in less than 35 minutes of play and the final stretch he was unbelievable with the comebacks.

I completely get that Harden led his team to a better record and higher seed, but it isn't like Russ led the Thunder to a 20 win season. I could see a Co-MVP, which I can not stand. I am to competitive of a person to have a Co-MVP. If voters think it is that close let the playoff series decide it.

Votes are already in, it is a regular season award. Also co-MVP in the NBA is pretty much impossible

They really shouldn't wait til the end of the playoffs to announce, in fact they should announce during THIS series, it would make things a lot more interesting. It would be like when they handed David Robinson the MVP trophy in front of Hakeem, and Hakeem went into complete beastmode

Scoots
04-15-2017, 05:50 PM
Votes are already in, it is a regular season award. Also co-MVP in the NBA is pretty much impossible

They really shouldn't wait til the end of the playoffs to announce, in fact they should announce during THIS series, it would make things a lot more interesting. It would be like when they handed David Robinson the MVP trophy in front of Hakeem, and Hakeem went into complete beastmode

They are trying to make another televisable event to keep the NBA relevant year round like the NFL ... not that it will work.

Jamiecballer
04-15-2017, 08:15 PM
His uncontested rebounds do come at the same rate, that's what the stat measures (and thats what I have been claiming).

Arguing that him being a superior defensive rebounder is why his rate is closer doesn't change the actual rate. It's a subjective statement and while I can agree it doesn't change what that stat measures nor is him being a good defensive rebounder helping your point.




I am sorry but looking at the entire picture is what we should be doing, don't pick and choose your stats based on bias while ignoring others. If I said Westy is clearly a better scorer because he scored more ppg than anyone in the league this year I would hope people bring up efficiency etc. It goes against your point though so you I get you want to ignore it.

You want to know who is right below Westy in uncontested rebounds? Deandre Jordan. Next it's Whiteside. So do we downgrade their stats too or do we realize that being high in that single stat says more about your volume of rebounds total than just uncontested in general. It is the fact Westy has half their % (what you want to ignore) that is the key here to separate them not the total volume and we should never just ignore that it would be ridiculous on any type of stat. So while Westy might be benefiting more this year from the system, once again it doesn't put him on some incredible rate of easy rebounds in comparison just right in line with other stars but at a higher volume.

Again I totally agree that Westy is benefiting from a system to get extra rebounds, systems benefit players and you admit this one works for them (I am pointing out how it compares to other stars though, yes that is important). What you have yet to do is give any solid reasoning why it isn't a legit triple double. Despite those extra rebounds as I have pointed out Westy is still right in line with other stars rate wise because as you say he is a good rebounder (pretty sure thats a good thing). The pace Oscar played at was a big advantage so I will ask again if his counts to you? I will ask again is it fair to use the system argument on Harden and take say 10% or so off his efficiency/assists etc because of the system?

Or do we subjectively pick and choose only when it comes to Westbrook?

i'm not going to continue this conversation because you seem extremely confused by what the numbers are saying and i don't want to make it confrontational, it is after all just sports.

mngopher35
04-15-2017, 08:31 PM
i'm not going to continue this conversation because you seem extremely confused by what the numbers are saying and i don't want to make it confrontational, it is after all just sports.

Sounds good, I definitely understand the numbers it is pretty easy and I have been explaining it. I am fine ending this though I see we won't get anywhere.

Jamiecballer
04-15-2017, 09:31 PM
Sounds good, I definitely understand the numbers it is pretty easy and I have been explaining it. I am fine ending this though I see we won't get anywhere.

i get your explanation. you either believe that because he gets a larger number of hard earned rebounds that he is entitled to receive more freebees (which would explain why you think the rate is important) or you don't understand what the numbers mean. frankly those are the only two possibilities.

mngopher35
04-15-2017, 09:40 PM
Maybe a little bit of the first to an extent. It definitely matters as I pointed out with just looking at the volume alone (always want to delve deeper). I am not sure how much or to what extent though as it will differ for people.

It's whatever though we can agree to disagree.