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View Full Version : Curry, KD, and LBJ: Undervalued?



JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2017, 03:49 PM
It seems like the MVP voting has really shifted to a conversation of Westy vs. Harden.


But I feel like Curry, KD, and LBJ are all putting in stellar performances that are at as high a level, but are not getting the recognition they deserve because they are not shouldering as big a burden.


LBJ is posting 26-8-8, which is typically a lock for an MVP award. Or close to it. But he's shared the scoring load with Kyrie and Love.

Curry is posting 25-6.5-5.5 on a 65-win team, and KD has posted 25-8-5.

I feel like were any of them playing on a team like OKC, or Houston, where they were the only dominant scorer, they'd be posting significantly higher numbers given their level of play.

Part of MVP is 'most valuable', so perhaps having other all-stars on these teams negate these players 'value'. In that case, I've not issue with Westy and Harden getting so much love (though my vote would go to Leonard).

But it does seem like there are some truly great performances going under the radar.

Thoughts?

valade16
04-10-2017, 03:55 PM
This year has seen a massive spike in statistics so we have tot ale them with a grain of salt. Someone getting a triple double or averaging 7/7 reb/ast is not as impressive when several other players are averaging 8/8+.

Also, more players are averaging 25+ PPG than at any other point in NBA history. MVP generally measures most productive season on a top team, it doesn't measure who the actual best player is.

I think most would rank Curry, Bron and KD in their top 5 (I have them all in my top 3) so I don't think they're undervalued so much as they just aren't producing as much as Harden/Westbrook due to their situations (KD and Curry together, etc.). But when they play each other, you'll see who the better players are.

Chronz
04-10-2017, 03:56 PM
Curry yeah. KD too I suppose but its almost too easy for them so we discount them now that they share the load.

LBJ struggles in the RS alot but he gets a pass so hes not undervalued, hes just not the MVP.

TheDish87
04-10-2017, 04:03 PM
KD missed too much time to be considered for MVP, prob should have mentioned Leonard instead. But OKC and Houston have a lot less talent around their star and it makes their performances that much more important every night.

ewing
04-10-2017, 04:33 PM
KD missed too much time, LB's team under preformed, and Curry won the last two so he would need to be out of this world to get it

Firefistus
04-10-2017, 04:44 PM
Or play better than Harden and Westbrook, which just flat out isn't the case this year. Curry played much better last year than he has this year.

TrueFan420
04-10-2017, 04:54 PM
I think what Leonard is doing on both sides of the ball is undervalued. If you take Curry, KD and Bron out of the question Leonard is the best player in the NBA.

Scoots
04-10-2017, 05:15 PM
MJ didn't win MVPs half of the years when he was the best player on the best team. Former MVPs have to absolutely kill it to win again.

valade16
04-10-2017, 05:15 PM
I think what Leonard is doing on both sides of the ball is undervalued. If you take Curry, KD and Bron out of the question Leonard is the best player in the NBA.

I think my top 5 best players in the NBA would be: LeBron, KD, Curry, Kawhi, CP3.

Scoots
04-10-2017, 05:58 PM
I think my top 5 best players in the NBA would be: LeBron, KD, Curry, Kawhi, CP3.

When CP3 is healthy he's still amazing, particularly for his size.

Chromehounds
04-10-2017, 06:46 PM
If KD wasn't hurt, oh, the MVP of MVP drama!

SfgiantsJD3
04-10-2017, 07:04 PM
I think what Leonard is doing on both sides of the ball is undervalued. If you take Curry, KD and Bron out of the question Leonard is the best player in the NBA.

Leonard should be right there with Westbrook and Harden this year. I don't think Curry or Durant are having MVP years.

lol, please
04-10-2017, 10:43 PM
I think what Leonard is doing on both sides of the ball is undervalued. If you take Curry, KD and Bron out of the question Leonard is the best player in the NBA.

Well said.

ewing
04-11-2017, 12:23 AM
I think what Leonard is doing on both sides of the ball is undervalued. If you take Curry, KD and Bron out of the question Leonard is the best player in the NBA.

i wouldn't argue with Westy, Harden, or KL getting it. This season aside i think KL is the 2nd best player in the league. Curry is my clear 3 and then other 3. if I want to win right and you only give me one player I go Bron KL

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 01:00 PM
I say it every year but this playoff season will say A LOT about Kawhi. He's going to go up against the best of the best. I'm looking forward to a Spurs vs Warriors matchup but if Kawhi does get past the Warriors, that showdown with LeBron will seal whether or not he's the best.

cmellofan15
04-11-2017, 04:09 PM
KD showed he was clearly better in last years playoffs--don't think anything has changed.

TrueFan420
04-11-2017, 04:14 PM
Leonard should be right there with Westbrook and Harden this year. I don't think Curry or Durant are having MVP years.
Sorry if I wasn't clear... I saying best player in the NBA after them. He's having a better season than both. And could but won't earn a MVP this year but he's a far better player than either of Harden or Westbrook

mrblisterdundee
04-11-2017, 05:38 PM
Narrative is important. Westbrook and Harden are both putting up video game performances as the only stars on their team.
James and Curry are their usually great selves, but they're on two of the more talented teams and haven't put up those video game numbers very often.
Durant's only played about three-quarters of the season, or else he'd probably be in a third-place tie with Leonard. His usage is 8 percent below Harden and 14 percent below Westbrook. He's also been one of the best rim protectors in the league.

mngopher35
04-11-2017, 06:21 PM
Harden/Westy seem like MVP favorites and you listed these 3 as well.

Im gonna say based on that information Kawhi is probably the most likely undervalued one haha. Honest answer though is no I think a lot of people would have these 3 guys as their top 3 in some order. If not top 5 at least most likely, they just haven't had unbelievable seasons this year like we have seen in the past from then RS. They are waiting for the playoffs to start.

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 08:17 PM
I'm not quite sure Kawhi is undervalued. Maybe in terms of MVP but that's because RWB and Harden are putting up better numbers. The system impact is just too difficult for people to look past but there is a consensus that he's a top five player.

Quinnsanity
04-11-2017, 08:18 PM
LeBron is being judged against past LeBron. The other candidates are being judged against each other. It's kind of ********. Not that I necessarily think LeBron is the MVP, there are reasonable holes in his candidacy (missed games that don't exist with Russ/Harden and the fact that it's kind of a dick move to constantly publicly call out your teammates), but 26-9-9 on his efficiency is really just as statistically impressive as Westbrook's triple double and even though he isn't trying on defense he's still better than Harden or Westbrook on that end. But people have seen LeBron be a DPOY caliber player so they unfairly hold it against him that he hasn't been this year, they've seen him score in higher volumes and more efficiently than he is this year so they hold it against him, I really think if, say, Gordon Hayward had LeBron's exact season we'd be much more seriously considering him for MVP (ignore race, fill in black player X if you'd prefer, I just like the Hayward comp because they have similar roles Hayward's is just smaller).

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 08:23 PM
LeBron is being judged against past LeBron. The other candidates are being judged against each other. It's kind of ********. Not that I necessarily think LeBron is the MVP, there are reasonable holes in his candidacy (missed games that don't exist with Russ/Harden and the fact that it's kind of a dick move to constantly publicly call out your teammates), but 26-9-9 on his efficiency is really just as statistically impressive as Westbrook's triple double and even though he isn't trying on defense he's still better than Harden or Westbrook on that end. But people have seen LeBron be a DPOY caliber player so they unfairly hold it against him that he hasn't been this year, they've seen him score in higher volumes and more efficiently than he is this year so they hold it against him, I really think if, say, Gordon Hayward had LeBron's exact season we'd be much more seriously considering him for MVP (ignore race, fill in black player X if you'd prefer, I just like the Hayward comp because they have similar roles Hayward's is just smaller).

definitely. But at the same time, Cavs should be winning more and that matters. Expectations were high, results were lower than should be. Houston/Thunder. Not sure how many wins others had them winning but they overachieved.

Chronz
04-11-2017, 08:39 PM
definitely. But at the same time, Cavs should be winning more and that matters. Expectations were high, results were lower than should be. Houston/Thunder. Not sure how many wins others had them winning but they overachieved.
But what are we basing this on?

ewing
04-11-2017, 08:43 PM
But what are we basing this on?

How many games you would think they should win looking at the players and teams past performance and how many games they actually won. Both those team at least play to expectations. The Cavs clearly did not

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Quinnsanity
04-11-2017, 09:09 PM
definitely. But at the same time, Cavs should be winning more and that matters. Expectations were high, results were lower than should be. Houston/Thunder. Not sure how many wins others had them winning but they overachieved.


But what are we basing this on?

The preseason win total over/unders for the MVP candidates this season were as follows:

San Antonio Spurs: 58.5
Cleveland Cavaliers: 56.5
Oklahoma City Thunder: 45.5
Houston Rockets: 41.5

And the actual win totals, and I'm just gonna grant every team a win in their final game for the sake of ease:

San Antonio Spurs: 62 wins
Cleveland Cavaliers: 52 wins
Oklahoma City Thunder: 48 wins (they have two games left and I'm just counting both as wins)
Houston Rockets: 55 wins

So Kawhi won 3.5 more games than expected, LeBron lost 4.5 fewer games than expected, Russ won 2.5 more games than expected... and Harden won 14.5 more games than expected.

This is an argument I use for Harden. The notion that Westbrook is carrying some terrible team and Harden isn't is utter ********. The ESPN NBA player rankings had three Thunder role players (Adams, Oladipo and Kanter) before ANY non-Harden Rocket. There was no argument before the season that Houston had a better roster than Oklahoma City. Anyone in their right mind would've taken Adams, Oladipo, Kanter, Roberson and so on over Anderson, Gordon, Beverley, Ariza and so on. You know why that isn't the case now? Because Harden made the look better! This isn't rocket science. Anderson and Gordon come on contracts that look bad when they're signed and have good years. What's the variable there? Alvin Gentry was a D'Antoni assistant in Phoenix, their systems are remarkably similar, so it's not the coaching. Harden is the variable. He is not playing with demonstrably better players than Westbrook, in fact, he is arguably playing with worse players.

In general, I'm not crazy about using team expectations. If Cleveland doesn't get as injured as they did early in the season I think it's fair to assume they win 56.5 or more games, and frankly, it's far easier to outperform a win expectancy in the 40's than it is in the 50's so you really can't blame players on the Cavs or Spurs for not reaching the high 60's or 70's.

What I do think matters is consistency. We thought Houston's supporting players were bad coming into the season. These are not young guys who should've improved naturally. If they were bad before the season, they are still bad now. We shouldn't change our opinion on them based on a gaudy win total. The variable here for all of the players who came from the outside is Harden.

Again, I really don't like bringing expectations into this. We should treat this year as a vacuum for MVP purposes. But if we are forced to use expectations, we need to be consistent about it. We can't say at the beginning of the year "Houston's supporting cast is bad" and then change our mind to "Houston's supporting cast is good" midway through the year without strong evidence to suggest that the players themselves are better (which does not exist).

FlashBolt
04-12-2017, 12:17 PM
But what are we basing this on?

The fact that we both lost huge pieces of our team and were highly dependent on a single player in a very tough conference?

TrueFan420
04-12-2017, 12:57 PM
I'm not quite sure Kawhi is undervalued. Maybe in terms of MVP but that's because RWB and Harden are putting up better numbers. The system impact is just too difficult for people to look past but there is a consensus that he's a top five player.

I can agree with that but I'd add he, like Timmy, is quiet and not flashy. Those players get talked about less by the media. And he will go as the unnoticed or overlooked superstar of his his generation while still being widely recognized as one of the top players in the game.

FlashBolt
04-12-2017, 01:08 PM
I can agree with that but I'd add he, like Timmy, is quiet and not flashy. Those players get talked about less by the media. And he will go as the unnoticed or overlooked superstar of his his generation while still being widely recognized as one of the top players in the game.

I don't think he wants to be talked about, though. I can't say I wish more players were like him because part of what makes him special is the fact that he just dominates without saying anything but as a fan, I do have to say I wish Kawhi was a bit more outspoken. He's too special to not get the attention he deserves.

TrueFan420
04-12-2017, 02:29 PM
I don't think he wants to be talked about, though. I can't say I wish more players were like him because part of what makes him special is the fact that he just dominates without saying anything but as a fan, I do have to say I wish Kawhi was a bit more outspoken. He's too special to not get the attention he deserves.

Sorry if it wasn't clear but when I said quiet I meant literally quiet not just not his game. If he wanted to grab headlines he could but unlike most he's cool operating in the shadows. I kinda wonder how much of that is his personality vs learning from Timmy vs
Spurs approach to their organization/team building. I mean it's most likely all 3 but would be interested to know how he feels about being somewhat overlooked.

Scoots
04-12-2017, 04:37 PM
I don't think he wants to be talked about, though. I can't say I wish more players were like him because part of what makes him special is the fact that he just dominates without saying anything but as a fan, I do have to say I wish Kawhi was a bit more outspoken. He's too special to not get the attention he deserves.

There have been other great players who don't particularly want the spotlight, we tend to still remember them. It does mean Kawhi will never be the traditional superstar though ... but I don't think he minds.

IndyRealist
04-12-2017, 04:55 PM
In no order, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and Leonard are all neck and neck. I wouldn't argue with any of those 4.
Other players (KD, CP3, etc.) missed to much time or are on really bad teams which is almost an instant disqualifier.

But it's going to be Westbrook. We all know it.

FlashBolt
04-12-2017, 05:26 PM
There have been other great players who don't particularly want the spotlight, we tend to still remember them. It does mean Kawhi will never be the traditional superstar though ... but I don't think he minds.

You might remember him but the casual fan won't and casual fans make up the majority of NBA fans.