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More-Than-Most
04-09-2017, 10:15 PM
Westy... doing something that nobody thought was possible ever again while being the first ever player to drop 3 50 point triple doubles in a season and the first ever player to hit a game winning 50 point triple double while breaking these records... Also the only player ever to record 2 7 game triple double streaks.

MVPMVPMVPMVP

More-Than-Most
04-09-2017, 10:15 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19120414/oklahoma-city-thunder-russell-westbrook-sets-nba-record-42nd-triple-double-season

FlashBolt
04-09-2017, 10:21 PM
How do you argue against Westbrook being MVP? I don't know. Does anyone here have one?

More-Than-Most
04-09-2017, 10:23 PM
How do you argue against Westbrook being MVP? I don't know. Does anyone here have one?

all I have heard is too many rebounds and high usage... but he legit has less help than any other playoff team so usage means nothing.... teams come in just focused on stopping him and he stills throws up 50/16/10 like its nothing.

tredigs
04-09-2017, 10:34 PM
all I have heard is too many rebounds and high usage... but he legit has less help than any other playoff team so usage means nothing.... teams come in just focused on stopping him and he stills throws up 50/16/10 like its nothing.

The argument is that he leads a sub 50 win 6 seed that was projected in the preseason to be a sub 50 win 6 seed. It would indeed be insanely rare for a player from a team this weak to win MAP. That said, he's probably going to win MVP and it's good with me.

Harden with a 35/10/15+ in a win himself tonight. Westbrook is far from without competition.

JasonJohnHorn
04-09-2017, 10:34 PM
MVP isn't about the best personal stats. Westy is impressive, yes. Amazing. Yes. But at the end of the day, I don't think for a second that there is a GM in the league who would take him over a LBJ, KD, or Curry in a situation where all things are being equal (age/length of contract/salary).

If somebody votes for Westy as MVP, I hope it's because he's the most valuable player, and not the guy who posted the best stat line.

5ass
04-09-2017, 10:56 PM
No one other than Oscar will ever average a triple double they said...

IndyRealist
04-09-2017, 11:04 PM
Team record matters for MVP in 99% of cases. This could be in that 1%, but I dunno.

GodsSon
04-09-2017, 11:07 PM
There's no way they can't give the MVP to Westbrook.

It might be another 50+ years before someone else does it.

TrueFan420
04-09-2017, 11:07 PM
If somebody votes for Westy as MVP, I hope it's because he's the most valuable player, and not the guy who posted the best stat line.

While I agree the issue seems to be that the line of thought for voting changes from year to year and voter to voter. I know in life it's almost always grey rather than black & white but they really need to make the requirements for voting a little more black & white.

Scoots
04-09-2017, 11:29 PM
While I agree the issue seems to be that the line of thought for voting changes from year to year and voter to voter. I know in life it's almost always grey rather than black & white but they really need to make the requirements for voting a little more black & white.

I agree.

To me Westbrook finishes 3rd. A great season, but a very flawed great season.

aman_13
04-09-2017, 11:31 PM
There's no way they can't give the MVP to Westbrook.

It might be another 50+ years before someone else does it.

If the team is set up the same way, it wouldn't surprise me if he averages a triple double or close to it next yr.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 11:51 PM
I was going to say the same thing. Why would you assume he won't repeat it next year. Barring a coaching change I would not bet against it.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

GodsSon
04-10-2017, 12:00 AM
If the team is set up the same way, it wouldn't surprise me if he averages a triple double or close to it next yr.

I'll bet you he doesn't.

Climbing that mountain once was hard enough and has only been done TWICE in the entire history of the league. This was no easy feat and you guys make it sound as though anybody could have done it; yet they didn't.

People are crabs and love to hate.

valade16
04-10-2017, 12:16 AM
MVP isn't about the best personal stats. Westy is impressive, yes. Amazing. Yes. But at the end of the day, I don't think for a second that there is a GM in the league who would take him over a LBJ, KD, or Curry in a situation where all things are being equal (age/length of contract/salary).

If somebody votes for Westy as MVP, I hope it's because he's the most valuable player, and not the guy who posted the best stat line.

MVP is for the player who had the most valuable season, not which player is the best. A better player can have an inferior season to another and not deserve MVP despite being a better player (be it injuries, coasting, etc.).

I'd lean Harden. His defense is still bad and his stats are likely inflated by D'Antoni's offense, but he is leading the Rockets to a seed nobody saw coming.

ball4reel
04-10-2017, 12:31 AM
People are acting like OKC's record is horrible, they still won 46 games. Westy had no help, and most projected them not to even make the playoffs without Durrant. I would give him the slight edge over Harden.

LA_Raiders
04-10-2017, 12:53 AM
He is the MVP no question, but he needs to start playing D to be in the best player consideration.

Aust
04-10-2017, 12:59 AM
What impresses me a lot of is some of the effort he shows on those rebounds. He wants it more and takes it from people.

tredigs
04-10-2017, 01:01 AM
People are acting like OKC's record is horrible, they still won 46 games. Westy had no help, and most projected them not to even make the playoffs without Durrant. I would give him the slight edge over Harden.

Literally every comment in this post is false, down to the misspelling of KD lol.

WOwolfOL
04-10-2017, 01:05 AM
I'll bet you he doesn't.

Climbing that mountain once was hard enough and has only been done TWICE in the entire history of the league. This was no easy feat and you guys make it sound as though anybody could have done it; yet they didn't.

People are crabs and love to hate.
It certainly is a rare accomplishment and he deserves a lot of credit but triple doubles are more common than ever. Before last season, the players with the most TDs each year generally had 5-6 or so. Then last year, Westbrook had 20 and Green had 13. Now this year Westbrook doubles up on his absurd 20 from the year before, Harden puts up 20 himself , practically out of nowhere, and LBJ hits double digits. Does it start to feel like the stat loses a little magic when you realize it's a byproduct of the era and an individual players role on a team?

Triple double leaders by year

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-triple-doubles/2012/

HandsOnTheWheel
04-10-2017, 01:26 AM
The most games the Thunder can win is 48 with 2 games remaining. Has anyone ever won an MVP winning less than 50 games? Hardens the MVP, just not enough team success from OKC IMO.

Too many empty triple doubles from Westbrook. It would be Hardens by a mile if not for all the triple doubles. Impressive, but team success should be taken into account more so than individual stats IMO.

More-Than-Most
04-10-2017, 04:36 AM
they lost a top 3 ****ing playing in the world and still will win 48 games and people hold their record against them? He has the worst team among the playoff teams next to him and he is getting hated on for ****ing usage.... teams are trying to just stop him and he puts up 50/16/12 like no tomorrow...

PurpleLynch
04-10-2017, 07:46 AM
It's a race between him and Harden at this point: I'm leaning more towards RW,I loved his warrior attitude this year. Harden had his best year also,but I can't just get around the fact that he broke one of the most difficult record of all time and also led his team to a decent 6th place in the West.

ball4reel
04-10-2017, 07:56 AM
Literally every comment in this post is false, down to the misspelling of KD lol.
Why is literally every comment false, and really 1 R?

PowerHouse
04-10-2017, 09:09 AM
The most games the Thunder can win is 48 with 2 games remaining. Has anyone ever won an MVP winning less than 50 games?


Did you seriously ask "ever"? Not lately but yes many times. Kareem won an MVP on a team with a losing record.

FlashBolt
04-10-2017, 09:29 AM
OKC's record is good enough where we can ignore the difference in wins between Houston and OKC. That has nothing to do with Westbrook. He's doing everything he possibly can to win but there are going to be days where we just can't score and if he has a bad night, we're doomed. Harden doesn't have that same responsibility. Someone will show up and score 20 for him.

I will confess that RWB does get about 2-3 rebounds from his teammates every game. I've seen times where Adams would just block out the opposing rebounder so RWB can go grab it. Still, this dude fights for EVERY rebound and that also matters.

I had Harden winning just until about two weeks ago until RWB just started heating up even more. Most people aren't even aware and I'm sure most of PSD aren't watching OKC games but RWB has been insanely huge for us. He's probably had six game winners this season. Most were three pointers and he's a terrible shooter so take it for what it is.

I also understand triple doubles are an arbitrary feat. If we look at James Harden or LeBron, the difference between a triple double and not is about 1-2 rebounds and 1-2 assists. But at the end of the day, it results in wins for us. It isn't a mystery when we're like 33-9 when Russell doesn't average a triple double.

All-in-all, he's the MVP. I wouldn't be upset if Harden won as I'm probably a tad bit biased here but I also haven't had a legitimate discussion with someone as to why RWB doesn't deserve it. All I'm getting is that he isn't winning enough. That's not valid.

Scoots
04-10-2017, 12:30 PM
He is the MVP no question, but he needs to start playing D to be in the best player consideration.

Based on the length of this and other threads ... clearly there are questions.

Scoots
04-10-2017, 12:32 PM
The most games the Thunder can win is 48 with 2 games remaining. Has anyone ever won an MVP winning less than 50 games?

Yes. Many times.

warfelg
04-10-2017, 12:33 PM
I would normally hate it but we need Co-MVPs this yet.

aman_13
04-10-2017, 01:05 PM
I'll bet you he doesn't.

Climbing that mountain once was hard enough and has only been done TWICE in the entire history of the league. This was no easy feat and you guys make it sound as though anybody could have done it; yet they didn't.

People are crabs and love to hate.

So if he's averaging a triple double or close to it next yr, then it devalues his triple double season this yr? That's essentially what you are implying as I never said it was easy.

There is no one in the NBA that has had the ball in his hands more than Westbrook. If the team is relying on him next yr the same way, it's possible. Especially if they continue to gift him 2 or 3 rebounds a night.

HandsOnTheWheel
04-10-2017, 02:06 PM
Did you seriously ask "ever"? Not lately but yes many times. Kareem won an MVP on a team with a losing record.

Cause it's happened many times in the past 35 years right? Oh that's right it didn't. 1975-76 was over 40 years ago.

tredigs
04-10-2017, 03:01 PM
People are acting like OKC's record is horrible, they still won 46 games. Westy had no help, and most projected them not to even make the playoffs without Durrant. I would give him the slight edge over Harden.

Why is literally every comment false, and really 1 R?
Yeah Durant is one 'r'.

"People are acting like OKC's record is horrible". Nobody is acting like it's "horrible". It is just extremely sub-par in relation to past MVP winners. You have to go back decades and decades to find a player leading a worse team winning MVP. And the difference in wins between them and the Rockets (8 currently) is not particularly small. That's the same difference between OKC and the Nuggets (a non playoff team 4 games under .500). Consider that the Thunder were projected to be better than the Rockets in the pre-season (and win ~46 games), it's a huge hole in his campaign that is tough to ignore.

"They still won 46 games". Well, they've won 46. They might win a couple more.

"Westy had no help". He leads a league average offense (15th) and certainly has not much help on that end, but their best asset is their defense (ranked 9th), and Westbrook has actively been no help to them on that end (as one example, see: worst closeout/contest rate in the NBA... he's waiting for rebounds instead). I get why he's taking defense off (mix of mitigating fatigue and wanting to get more rebounds), but we can't pretend like team defense is something that does not matter, or ignore the fact that he is no help to them in their best team attribute.

"And most projected them not to make the playoffs without Durant". False. All preseason projections that I saw had them as a playoff team, most around 46 wins. It was the Rockets that preseason projections were not sure about making the playoffs. Example: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/vegas-releases-2016-17-nba-season-overunder-win-totals-for-every-team/ (OKC projected 45.5 wins, Rockets 41.5 wins).

PowerHouse
04-11-2017, 08:25 AM
Cause it's happened many times in the past 35 years right? Oh that's right it didn't. 1975-76 was over 40 years ago.

What are you talking about? Can you go back and re-read what you posted?

You didn't ask about "in the past 35 years" you asked about "ever". And your question was answered. End of story.

Jeffy25
04-11-2017, 12:15 PM
How do you argue against Westbrook being MVP? I don't know. Does anyone here have one?

It's Bron's best season of his career, and he is the first player to ever post a 25/8/8 while shooting over 54% (Jordan in 88/89 shot 53.8%).

but that's the only argument I know.

He's going to win it.

Jeffy25
04-11-2017, 12:20 PM
The most games the Thunder can win is 48 with 2 games remaining. Has anyone ever won an MVP winning less than 50 games? Hardens the MVP, just not enough team success from OKC IMO.

Happened a few times in the 70's (Kareem in 75-76 didn't even make the playoffs). Pettit in 56 honly went 33-39.

Malone in 79 and 82. McAdoo in 75


But should team record really matter for MVP?

Jamiecballer
04-11-2017, 12:30 PM
Happened a few times in the 70's (Kareem in 75-76 didn't even make the playoffs). Pettit in 56 honly went 33-39.

Malone in 79 and 82. McAdoo in 75


But should team record really matter for MVP?

In the NBA, i would argue yes. I know this is an old issue in baseball and I am firmly in the camp that says it shouldn't be a huge factor there, but in a 5 on 5 sport the impact of a great player should be huge.

HandsOnTheWheel
04-11-2017, 12:48 PM
What are you talking about? Can you go back and re-read what you posted?

You didn't ask about "in the past 35 years" you asked about "ever". And your question was answered. End of story.

The way you worded made it seem like MVP on a losing team was a common occurrence though. Lol "Did you seriously ask ever?" Pardon me for not knowing that off the top of my head buddy.

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 01:02 PM
It's Bron's best season of his career, and he is the first player to ever post a 25/8/8 while shooting over 54% (Jordan in 88/89 shot 53.8%).

but that's the only argument I know.

He's going to win it.

That record is impossible to ignore. Even with KL and J.R. being out, this team should have broken 50 wins easily. LeBron's having a really great season. Not sure if it is his best but I don't really care. Cavs are going to the Finals and there is no team in the East I can see beating them FOUR times. We get surprised when they lose one time.. no way they get beat four times.

PowerHouse
04-11-2017, 01:44 PM
The way you worded made it seem like MVP on a losing team was a common occurrence though. Lol "Did you seriously ask ever?" Pardon me for not knowing that off the top of my head buddy.

Lol. It isnt my fault if your reading comprehension make zero sense, its yours.

I did say it hasnt happened lately, its there in the post. So how you understood it as me saying its a common occurrence is beyond any form of rationality. I just answered a question.

HandsOnTheWheel
04-11-2017, 02:14 PM
Eh, no need for a pissing contest. I still like Harden for MVP, though the media may see it differently. They seem to have a hardon for Westbrook and the inflated triple double average/breaking the season record.

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 02:21 PM
Eh, no need for a pissing contest. I still like Harden for MVP, though the media may see it differently. They seem to have a hardon for Westbrook and the inflated triple double average/breaking the season record.

how is it inflated, dude? You're acting like Harden isn't getting the most inflated numbers because of the system he's in..

tredigs
04-11-2017, 02:35 PM
It's Bron's best season of his career, and he is the first player to ever post a 25/8/8 while shooting over 54% (Jordan in 88/89 shot 53.8%).

but that's the only argument I know.

He's going to win it.

Bron's best season? Huh? And you have him as the runner up? I'm lost.

HandsOnTheWheel
04-11-2017, 02:41 PM
^Not saying you're wrong but more wins are significant.

For at least the past 10 years, media has seemingly gone by a criteria of ignoring players having great individual statical seasons for players on a team with a top record in the league. The vote could definitely go either way but criteria definitely has to be taken into account here IMO.

mngopher35
04-11-2017, 02:42 PM
Ya I don't think this is that close to the best season for Lebron impact wise. I also don't think he is going all out atm either though so not saying he isn't great just that he is clearly older now and playing for the playoffs.

mngopher35
04-11-2017, 02:50 PM
^Not saying you're wrong but more wins are significant.

For at least the past 10 years, media has seemingly gone by a criteria of ignoring players having great individual statical seasons for players on a team with a top record in the league. The vote could definitely go either way but criteria definitely has to be taken into account here IMO.

I do agree with this, but then why not go with Kawhi? Better team results and impact is pretty close but Harden comes out better statistically. It gets messy to me when you have this set criteria of only giving it to the top teams when other guys have great years, I hope they break said trend.

When is last time an MVP wasn't on a top 2 seed? I'm actually curious, feel like it rarely even happens for a 3rd seed like Harden. I think its time we give it to the most impactful player whether or not they are on one of the top 2 seeds in either conference. If you disagree and like the trends/team aspect thats fine but to me Kawhi has a better argument with that criteria.

Not actually saying you have to change your vote but to me Harden is in a tough spot where he is in the middle of team success between Westy and Kawhi and also in the middle of actual impact throughout the season with his loaded numbers/volume etc. If you choose to focus on the history of the award/team accolade aspect I feel like Kawhi has the better argument though.

Scoots
04-11-2017, 02:55 PM
I guess it comes down to that old debate of great stats on bad teams vs good stats on great teams.

This year the narrative has been about 2 guys all year ... I have a feeling the stats don't matter as much as the narrative as far as other players getting in to the running.