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mightybosstone
04-08-2017, 08:30 AM
I realize ESPN has been a joke to a lot of sports fans over the years, but the network's coverage of Russell Westbrook this season has got to take the cake for me as possibly the most frustrating over-coverage of an athlete I've ever seen for the wrong reasons, outside of possibly Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel.

I turned to ESPN this morning to check baseball and basketball scores, and there's Westbrook's face with words like "remarkable" and "triumph" on the home page. Then I look at the score and actually pull up the guy's box score. They lost by 21 ****ing points to Phoenix! And he had an absolute abortion of a basketball game last night shooting 6 for 25 with 8 turnovers and a -15. There's nothing remotely triumphant about it, and this comes a couple of nights after their "so close" headline when he came like one rebound or assist shy of another triple double.

Seriously, the triple double nonsense has gone too far. I'm not saying Westbrook hasn't had an unbelievable season. He absolutely has. And if he wins the MVP, he definitely will have been a deserving candidate, and I can stomach that. But if media members vote for him because he padded the crap out of this rebounds to get triple doubles every night, then they're absolutely voting for him for the wrong reason.

An average of half a rebound or assist per game should not remotely be the difference in a player winning MVP or not. And the fact that so many wouldn't vote for him if he averaged 9.5 rebounds per game and that ESPN wouldn't remotely be covering him this much if he was averaging 8-9 rebounds per night makes me want to throw up in my mouth. They're actively trying to frame the MVP case around Westbrook based on a ******** narrative they're inventing!

And, yeah, I'm a Rockets fan. And, yeah, I'd like to see Harden win the MVP. But I think this race is a coin flip right now basde on whatever barometers used to vote for the award, and I think this ESPN narrative that Westbrook is now a runaway winner for the award because he averaged a triple double is complete and utter nonsense.

ewing
04-08-2017, 08:47 AM
9 isn't 10. A triple double is a bench mark stat. Someone averaging one for a season is news. in a sport where teams in the playoff hunt sell at the deadline and team fighting for the one spot sit there players down the stretch of the season its probably is the biggest story out there. I have no problem with either guy winning MVP and don't watch ESPN enough to comment on there coverage but the fact that he averaged a triple double for the year is a story.

geauxtigers1989
04-08-2017, 09:11 AM
Westbrook just did something that hasn't been done in 50 years and many thought would never be done again. Of course ESPN's going to blow it up, an they're not the only ones. The Fox and CBS guys are running with it too.

Htownballa1622
04-08-2017, 09:26 AM
It's complete BS.

They lost to CHARLOTTE and all they could do was talk about his 40/13/10 in a LOSS.
Then, I saw something about "ooh so close" the other night when he had 45/10/9 in a WIN and totally glossed over the win.

It's ridiculous because they're hyping it up for all the wrong reasons. If he were to average 9.9 rebounds per game(he's not. he already secured the t/d for a season) and ppl wouldn't vote for him for mvp but would only if he had 10 rpg....then that's BS.

Narrative and recency bias is propelling his mvp case. ESPN can't stop slurping him for all the wrong reasons.

ewing
04-08-2017, 10:33 AM
Poor James Harden


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Scoots
04-08-2017, 10:50 AM
I went and looked around the net using the list of voters from last year. I fell far short of finding all of them but 8 of 12 who I found references to what they were thinking about MVP ... Westbrook seems to be the way they are thinking. I can't stand Harden's game, but to me there is no question he should be ahead of Westbrook in the MVP race. It should be telling to anyone familiar with Harden's defensive history when I say Westbrook has been playing defense worse than Harden at his worst.

GREATNESS ONE
04-08-2017, 10:51 AM
Russell Westbrook is the MVP.

celtNYpatsHeels
04-08-2017, 11:11 AM
What Westbrook has done this year is amazing and historic. However espn's coverage of everything has become horrible over the past 10 years or so.

Toxeryll
04-08-2017, 11:21 AM
If I would start a team right now and pick between Westbrook and Harden, I'll go with Westbrook easily.

CluTcH_c1tY
04-08-2017, 12:43 PM
Espn is trash and has been for years.

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dhopisthename
04-08-2017, 01:24 PM
I agree so much on the triple double thing. Zach lowe in a podcast said this

"He is stat padding his rebounds. So if you really care enough about 2 defensive rebounds to make that the deciding factor in who you vote for, more power to you. If you vote for Westbrook, you should not do it because of the triple double. Period."
"By the way, there are lots of great reasons to vote for Russell Westbrook. I might vote for Russell Westbrook. I'm not going to tell you which way I'm leaning, but I might. It doesn't have to matter to you that he is averaging a triple double. That's not why you should vote for him."
"You should vote for him because he is carrying a bad roster to 45 wins. The team is a disaster without him. They were designed to be a team of role player finishers around 2 superstars. They lost one of their superstars and haven't fallen into the tank. Those are reasons to vote for him. The fact he averages 10 rebounds instead of 8 and a half is not really a reason to vote for him."

smith&wesson
04-08-2017, 01:51 PM
Yeah i dont get glorifying a player in a loss. Also I don't get crediting a triple double if you shoot 6-25 and have 8 turnovers. That's brutal.

With that said.. its all because Durant left.. other wise WB would still be the selfish player who refused to defer to KD.

MJNetsIsles
04-08-2017, 02:05 PM
They're simply covering the MVP. TLDR OP

Raps18-19 Champ
04-08-2017, 02:09 PM
I hope Westy wins MVP just so I see what new thread comes up next.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-08-2017, 02:12 PM
http://a3.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2017%2F0404%2Fnba_tripleDouble_12 96x518.jpg&w=800&h=320&scale=crop&cquality=80&location=origin

ewing
04-08-2017, 02:17 PM
it sounds like all you guys are saying people can't think it is cool that he is averaging a triple double and think he is the MVP b/c he is having a great season triple double average aside. Maybe the triple double thing just makes it cooler for some people.

Bostonjorge
04-08-2017, 02:33 PM
I can see Okc beating Houston in the first round. 4-2 Okc.

Scoots
04-08-2017, 03:03 PM
Without Westy the Thunder are REALLY bad. But with Harden and with Kawhi Houston and San Antonio are MUCH better than the Thunder.

valade16
04-08-2017, 03:40 PM
Everyone 2 years ago: No one will ever average a triple double again, it's too difficult.

This season: Big whoop.

Very odd.

More-Than-Most
04-08-2017, 04:09 PM
something that has only been done once he is doing.... one time in the sports history while leading his team to the playoffs with no help... Also he is the MVP.. He deserves the press he is getting by quite a bit. Please do not put his defense next to hardens name in terms of defense... Hardens defense has not gotten better... The style they are playing covers up for that said defense... They are out running and out scoring teams and relying on the other team missing shots etc etc etc... Its what Toni did for Nash as well.... Westy is doing as much or more with less... MVP.

JAZZNC
04-08-2017, 04:11 PM
Everyone 2 years ago: No one will ever average a triple double again, it's too difficult.

This season: Big whoop.

Very odd.
This. He's having a once in a lifetime season and people are trying to discredit it constantly. Why would ESPN not constantly cover this? But haters gonna hate. I feel like if I had a vote for MVP I'd go with Harden but I'd certainly not ***** if Westbrook wins. Just the physical stamina to pull it off (stat hunting or not) is really impressive. I also appreciate the fact that he and Harden have played every game....you know because they are healthy and willing to do so.

Scoots
04-08-2017, 05:17 PM
This. He's having a once in a lifetime season and people are trying to discredit it constantly. Why would ESPN not constantly cover this? But haters gonna hate. I feel like if I had a vote for MVP I'd go with Harden but I'd certainly not ***** if Westbrook wins. Just the physical stamina to pull it off (stat hunting or not) is really impressive. I also appreciate the fact that he and Harden have played every game....you know because they are healthy and willing to do so.

Kawhi is putting out almost as much energy on offense AND playing elite defense. Again, not to imply what Westbrook is doing is not amazing.

ewing
04-08-2017, 05:26 PM
Everyone 2 years ago: No one will ever average a triple double again, it's too difficult.

This season: Big whoop.

Very odd.

Yep


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Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 07:00 PM
the fact that he could be the MVP is almost as big of a joke as putting a reality tv star in the whitehouse.

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 07:02 PM
Everyone 2 years ago: No one will ever average a triple double again, it's too difficult.

This season: Big whoop.

Very odd.

it's because he isn't actually earning that accomplishment. fact is it would have happened before for a few guys at least if they were spoonfed or gifted numbers the way he has been this season.

valade16
04-08-2017, 07:13 PM
it's because he isn't actually earning that accomplishment. fact is it would have happened before for a few guys at least if they were spoonfed or gifted numbers the way he has been this season.

So big whoop?

He's no less earning his rebounds than Harden is his Free Throws by jumping into defenders arms. I really don't see a difference in gifting.

More-Than-Most
04-08-2017, 07:28 PM
I honestly cant remember the last time we got mad at someone going extra hard for rebounds... Put ****ing OKA on your team for a game and then talk to me... Westy going for rebounds all of a sudden has become a ****ing bad thing lol... rebounding is a bad thing.

tredigs
04-08-2017, 07:40 PM
I honestly cant remember the last time we got mad at someone going extra hard for rebounds... Put ****ing OKA on your team for a game and then talk to me... Westy going for rebounds all of a sudden has become a ****ing bad thing lol... rebounding is a bad thing.

Well, that's not what anybody is saying. It's that he's just stat padding pretty blatantly and when the point of his accomplishments is the stats itself, it takes away a bit of the allure. Things like his closeout rate being the worst in the NBA and him being by far and away the top defensive rebounder on FT's in the NBA (every other guy is a big) are what they mean. Personally I'm mixed in his season. It's clearly incredible, but he's also clearly not the best player in the game. I didn't think I would have been able to say that about someone who averaged a triple double and lead the league in PPG. But when you have a motor for days, the biggest green light to run an offense of a generation, and you stat pad for the toughest part of the 3x2, it became the case.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-08-2017, 07:47 PM
Let him chase the triple double. It doesn't make it any less valuable to his team than if that triple double was coming naturally. He has the situation in front of him and is taking advantage of it, as he should be.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-08-2017, 07:52 PM
Well, that's not what anybody is saying. It's that he's just stat padding pretty blatantly and when the point of his accomplishments is the stats itself, it takes away a bit of the allure. Things like his closeout rate being the worst in the NBA and him being by far and away the top defensive rebounder on FT's in the NBA (every other guy is a big) are what they mean. Personally I'm mixed in his season. It's clearly incredible, but he's also clearly not the best player in the game. I didn't think I would have been able to say that about someone who averaged a triple double and lead the league in PPG. But when you have a motor for days, the biggest green light to run an offense of a generation, and you stat pad for the toughest part of the 3x2, it became the case.

The biggest question you should be asking is if the team would be in a better position if he wasn't chasing those stats.

valade16
04-08-2017, 08:07 PM
Well, that's not what anybody is saying. It's that he's just stat padding pretty blatantly and when the point of his accomplishments is the stats itself, it takes away a bit of the allure. Things like his closeout rate being the worst in the NBA and him being by far and away the top defensive rebounder on FT's in the NBA (every other guy is a big) are what they mean. Personally I'm mixed in his season. It's clearly incredible, but he's also clearly not the best player in the game. I didn't think I would have been able to say that about someone who averaged a triple double and lead the league in PPG. But when you have a motor for days, the biggest green light to run an offense of a generation, and you stat pad for the toughest part of the 3x2, it became the case.

Big O wasn't the best player when he averaged his triple double, why would we demand russ have to be?

Heck, (and I know you'll disagree) Steph Curry put up a historical season last year and he wasn't the leagues best player (LeBron was).

CityofTreez
04-08-2017, 08:11 PM
He accomplished/duplicated what most everyone believed was an impossible feat, and you're dumbfounded over the circus of coverage? Shoot!

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 08:19 PM
So big whoop?

He's no less earning his rebounds than Harden is his Free Throws by jumping into defenders arms. I really don't see a difference in gifting.

yeah, i can see that.

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 08:26 PM
let me ask you all a question. if you found out that golden state threw the last 3 games of the finals last year, would it change how you viewed the Cavs accomplishment? or how about this one - kobes last game. did it feel just a little less epic when you could see that basically all anyone cared about was giving kobe a chance to shoot the lights out? how you get it is just as important as what you get. or what about this one - what if the gift FT rebounds were the difference between Westbrook winning a rebounding crown or not - would it not cheapen it? of course it would.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-08-2017, 08:53 PM
That only matters for 'feel good' portion, which thankfully the MVP title isn't based off of.

tredigs
04-08-2017, 09:48 PM
Big O wasn't the best player when he averaged his triple double, why would we demand russ have to be?

Heck, (and I know you'll disagree) Steph Curry put up a historical season last year and he wasn't the leagues best player (LeBron was).

A) Triple Double wasn't a thing in Oscars day. We made it up in the late 80's, early 90's. And I know, he didn't even finish top 2 in MVP voting.

B) I am saying Russ was not the best player on the court during the regular season. If you disagree that Curry was, WOW. You are a smart guy Valade, don't be contrarian just for the sake of it. LBJ did prove himself better in the end, but yes, Curry did go down and we'd be silly to act like that had no bearing. Regardless, absolutely zero question as to who was the best player when the voting occured. In fact I think it was unanimous...

JasonJohnHorn
04-08-2017, 10:02 PM
he had an absolute abortion of a basketball game last night

ROASTED!!! lol

ewing
04-08-2017, 10:02 PM
let me ask you all a question. if you found out that golden state threw the last 3 games of the finals last year, would it change how you viewed the Cavs accomplishment? or how about this one - kobes last game. did it feel just a little less epic when you could see that basically all anyone cared about was giving kobe a chance to shoot the lights out? how you get it is just as important as what you get. or what about this one - what if the gift FT rebounds were the difference between Westbrook winning a rebounding crown or not - would it not cheapen it? of course it would.

Totally the same thing as force feeding Kobe


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valade16
04-08-2017, 10:04 PM
A) Triple Double wasn't a thing in Oscars day. We made it up in the late 80's, early 90's. And I know, he didn't even finish top 2 in MVP voting.

B) I am saying Russ was not the best player on the court during the regular season. If you disagree that Curry was, WOW. You are a smart guy Valade, don't be contrarian just for the sake of it. LBJ did prove himself better in the end, but yes, Curry did go down and we'd be silly to act like that had no bearing. Regardless, absolutely zero question as to who was the best player when the voting occured. In fact I think it was unanimous...

B). That's my point, MVP measures who had the best season, not who was the better player.. Curry definitely had the best season, but ultimately it was shown he wasn't the best player. hopefully you get that distinction.

tredigs
04-08-2017, 10:44 PM
B). That's my point, MVP measures who had the best season, not who was the better player.. Curry definitely had the best season, but ultimately it was shown he wasn't the best player. hopefully you get that distinction.

Negative. You are missing my point. Curry was the best player in the league in the regular season. Like, not close. Westbrook to me is not even the best player in this regular season. A substantial amount of people would agree with that stance. You with me?

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 10:54 PM
That only matters for 'feel good' portion, which thankfully the MVP title isn't based off of.
I don't have a clue what that means or refers to. He is not honestly 'earning' those rebounds, I don't know how you can be wowed by something that is manufactured.

I will give you a perfect parallel. Suppose i tell you steph curry averages 35 points per game next season. That's all you know. At first blush it sounds amazing, right because very few have ever done such a thing. Then I tell you how he did it. Every 9th possession he decides to not even run back but instead wait at the other end of the court while his teammates defend and waits for a long outlet pass so he can quickly lay it in before the defenders get back.

The result is no different - 35 points is 35 points. But do you still think it's as "impressive" now that you know that there was something funny going on? If you do I don't know what to tell you

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Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 10:55 PM
Totally the same thing as force feeding Kobe


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You know what, you are actually right. Because kobe still had to make the baskets. If they were truly equivalent the defenders would have vacated the key.

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valade16
04-08-2017, 11:12 PM
You know what, you are actually right. Because kobe still had to make the baskets. If they were truly equivalent the defenders would have vacated the key.

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Are defenders vacating the key to let Westbrook get rebounds? That equivalence fails.

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 11:16 PM
Are defenders vacating the key to let Westbrook get rebounds? That equivalence fails.
His bigs do, same difference. A gift is a gift.

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valade16
04-08-2017, 11:21 PM
His bigs do, same difference. A gift is a gift.

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So is it a gift when those bugs get the same rebound anyone else on their team could?

europagnpilgrim
04-08-2017, 11:26 PM
ESPN has to ride the wave, its been like this for years with players doing remarkable stuff, this just hasn't been done since 62' and only one time so they have to do this for views/shock value(rather negative or positive feedback), it all works out in the end, next year they will be like can he do it again and then give him big negative coverage for not being able to do it if he doesn't repeat the feat

and to all those claiming people are hating on him stat padding it does carry some weight because his bigs let him get all the FT missed shots(from videos I have watched) and he lines up where they are supposed to be at times, and he shoots right to the paint off of his man even before the shot is put up on defense, and last televised(abc) game I watched them on I could have swore they gave him 2 phantom rebounds in 1 minute and he didn't get any boards, but hey when its your year then it works like that sometimes

tredigs
04-08-2017, 11:37 PM
So is it a gift when those bugs get the same rebound anyone else on their team could?

Lol what don't you get here? A point guard leads the league in defensive FT rebounds by a HUGE margin (never happened before and that should be obvious). They're padding. Accept it. Harden is as well, just to a lesser extent.

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 11:40 PM
So is it a gift when those bugs get the same rebound anyone else on their team could?
Yes, and those numbers are factored into our evaluation of bigs, we know there are a quantity of them that are essentially a function of easy misses. And traditionally that isn't a problem because we tend to compare bigs to bigs, smalls to smalls.

The problem here is we know that there is next to no way we will ever see a big threaten to average a triple double, so the key constraint is almost guaranteed to be rebounding. Now if he averaged 13 a game noone would say boo but when people are pumping up the whole historic achievement BS when he likely doesn't get it without these systematic gifts, it's ridiculous.

He has had a phenomenal year, but it's a meaningless mark because it's manufactured

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Raps18-19 Champ
04-08-2017, 11:50 PM
I don't have a clue what that means or refers to. He is not honestly 'earning' those rebounds, I don't know how you can be wowed by something that is manufactured.

I will give you a perfect parallel. Suppose i tell you steph curry averages 35 points per game next season. That's all you know. At first blush it sounds amazing, right because very few have ever done such a thing. Then I tell you how he did it. Every 9th possession he decides to not even run back but instead wait at the other end of the court while his teammates defend and waits for a long outlet pass so he can quickly lay it in before the defenders get back.

The result is no different - 35 points is 35 points. But do you still think it's as "impressive" now that you know that there was something funny going on? If you do I don't know what to tell you

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He's not being given these rebounds. He's getting them against teams that are trying to prevent him from getting it.

I'm not arguing with you it isn't as impressive. I think he'd get more love if he did it 'naturally'. I'm saying what he's doing is still so impressive that there isn't a reason for me to bring it down, especially because he's doing it at the benefit of the team.

Is it as impressive as a natural triple double? Maybe not. But what he's doing is still so hard that there's no reason for me to do anything but praise his performance regardless. Really just looking at another side of the coin.

It's as if some of you people want to 'punish' him for chasing triple doubles.

valade16
04-08-2017, 11:54 PM
Lol what don't you get here? A point guard leads the league in defensive FT rebounds by a HUGE margin (never happened before and that should be obvious). They're padding. Accept it. Harden is as well, just to a lesser extent.

I get it completely. It's just the selective outrage is amusing. Many people here hate Westy's game and it's funny watching everyone hate on him.

Take away 2 rebounds per game (a generous amount) due to stat padding and you're still looking at a guy who averages 30 PPG, 10 APG, near 9 RPG taking a team nobody thought would be good to the playoffs while breaking virtually every advanced stat we have.

What a ****in' bum.

Jamiecballer
04-08-2017, 11:57 PM
He's not being given these rebounds. He's getting them against teams that are trying to prevent him from getting it.

I'm not arguing with you it isn't as impressive. I think he'd get more love if he did it 'naturally'. I'm saying what he's doing is still so impressive that there isn't a reason for me to bring it down, especially because he's doing it at the benefit of the team.

Is it as impressive as a natural triple double? Maybe not. But what he's doing is still so hard that there's no reason for me to do anything but praise his performance regardless. Really just looking at another side of the coin.

It's as if some of you people want to 'punish' him for chasing triple doubles.
Fair enough, I'm not trying to suggest he hasn't had a great year. But he is quite literally being nudged into historic territory by these gifts. And almost historic and historic are treated and remembered quite differently, that's all.

And yes, they are gifts. What percentage of missed free throws are rebounded by the offensive team? It's miniscule.

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More-Than-Most
04-09-2017, 12:31 AM
we should punish curry for his team and coach being ok with him taking 50 foot 3s or double covered 3s...

We should punish wilt for his team letting him shoot 40 times a game


some of the dumbest **** I have ever heard... Unnatural rebounds.... Westy normally averages 8 a game over the last few years but yo almost 3 more a game is unheard or should be handicapped because he is trying harder to get those 3 plus more a game for his stats BECAUSE GETTING A REBOUND HURTS HIS TEAM.

Firefistus
04-09-2017, 12:39 AM
What Westbrook has done has been amazing, but the reason ESPN is sucking his !@#$ is because he's from UCLA. And in the eyes of ESPN the streets are paved in gold and everything L.A. related instantly makes is amazing.

ewing
04-09-2017, 06:15 AM
Fair enough, I'm not trying to suggest he hasn't had a great year. But he is quite literally being nudged into historic territory by these gifts. And almost historic and historic are treated and remembered quite differently, that's all.

And yes, they are gifts. What percentage of missed free throws are rebounded by the offensive team? It's miniscule.

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If the other team isn't going go get the ball it makes sense for westy too. He is going to be the first pass anyway. And even when it uncontested he still had to go get the ball. You are just hater


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ewing
04-09-2017, 07:36 AM
At least admit I root against James. You guys are full of it.

tredigs
04-09-2017, 11:03 AM
I get it completely. It's just the selective outrage is amusing. Many people here hate Westy's game and it's funny watching everyone hate on him.

Take away 2 rebounds per game (a generous amount) due to stat padding and you're still looking at a guy who averages 30 PPG, 10 APG, near 9 RPG taking a team nobody thought would be good to the playoffs while breaking virtually every advanced stat we have.

What a ****in' bum.

Lmao well if you take away those 1.7 boards he no longer averages the triple double. And that's soooort of a talking point that matters here. Or you could just brush that aside and continue to make up false narratives to better suit your stance (I don't think one person is not impressed by his season overall). To each their own.

JLynn943
04-09-2017, 12:29 PM
Poor James Harden


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Yeah, that's what this thread boils down to.

valade16
04-09-2017, 12:55 PM
Lmao well if you take away those 1.7 boards he no longer averages the triple double. And that's soooort of a talking point that matters here. Or you could just brush that aside and continue to make up false narratives to better suit your stance (I don't think one person is not impressed by his season overall). To each their own.

Be in a closet all you want, if you don't think some people hate him or think his season isn't very impressive well, you're blind to hate (understandable considering what you've become).

Hint: ask Jamieballer what he thinks of Westy's season, and he's far from alone...

tredigs
04-09-2017, 01:02 PM
Be in a closet all you want, if you don't think some people hate him or think his season isn't very impressive well, you're blind to hate (understandable considering what you've become).

Hint: ask Jamieballer what he thinks of Westy's season, and he's far from alone...

OK dude, how about option C and take the reasonable and rational approach. Understand that there is a huge portion of fans who recognize that he had a great season, but also recognize that he absurdly padded his rebound totals that on every other team would go to their bigs, and he subsequently averaged a triple double due to that fact. The triple double is what has everybody going nuts. If you're capable of that...

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 01:05 PM
If the other team isn't going go get the ball it makes sense for westy too. He is going to be the first pass anyway. And even when it uncontested he still had to go get the ball. You are just hater


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At least admit I root against James. You guys are full of it.

there is absolutely zero basis for these comments. he's a great player and he's had a great year. and the fact that you are quoting me but not even addressing my points just weakens your argument. tell me why we shouldn't consider this when evaluating a players stats instead of weakly trolling me instead. we make judgements on players and compare their performance in large part due to their stats. if the numbers are not trustworthy then the basis for comparison falls down.

as an example. kyrie irving is a pretty darn good player. do you know how many defensive rebounds he has on free throw misses? the answer is 5. westbrook last i checked had 97. 97! if the cavaliers adopted a similar approach guess who just joined the rather exclusive 25/5/5 club. now would i criticize irving for that. no, just as i am not actually criticizing westbrook here. but you can see how perception can become distorted by systematic changes that are not universally applied.

valade16
04-09-2017, 01:07 PM
OK dude, how about option C and take the reasonable and rational approach. Understand that there is a huge portion of fans who recognize that he had a great season, but also recognize that he absurdly padded his rebound totals that on every other team would go to their bigs, and he subsequently averaged a triple double due to that fact. The triple double is what has everybody going nuts. If you're capable of that...

First you're under the false assumption Westbrook himself is the one padding his stats, as if he's telling the bigs to get out of the way to get him rebounds. I think it's far more likely his teammates are the ones allowing him to get the rebounds because they want to see him get the triple double. Hopefully you're capable of seeing that distinction.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 01:15 PM
Lmao well if you take away those 1.7 boards he no longer averages the triple double. And that's soooort of a talking point that matters here. Or you could just brush that aside and continue to make up false narratives to better suit your stance (I don't think one person is not impressed by his season overall). To each their own.

exactly. people aren't able to seperate taking issue with the false narrative from actual criticism of the player. he's had a dynamite year and there hasn't been a single person suggest otherwise.

tredigs
04-09-2017, 01:16 PM
First you're under the false assumption Westbrook himself is the one padding his stats, as if he's telling the bigs to get out of the way to get him rebounds. I think it's far more likely his teammates are the ones allowing him to get the rebounds because they want to see him get the triple double. Hopefully you're capable of seeing that distinction.

Its irrelevant if its him or not making the call. Let's break it down. Is scoring 31 ppg while shooting the ball 24 times a night and 10.5 Free Throws a night incredible? Of course not. Give dozens of players in this league that volume of shots and they're putting up 30+ a night. I'd Is averaging 10.4 assists a night while turning it over 5.5 times a game some incredible achievement to you? It's not for most. So it comes down to the combination of two volume based totals (highest USG% in NBA history) along with his rebound stats that pushed him over 10 a game. Rebounds that no other guard in history has been privy to. And it's why his total is so abnormally high for a guard. You can be part of the blind group that just shouts "it's incredible I don't care what u say haterz!!", but I choose to break it down and see if for what it is; a great season that was heavily influenced to look more impressive on paper than it actually was. People legitimately calling it one of the greatest seasons in history is just funny to me. It wasn't even the best season THIS season.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 01:17 PM
Be in a closet all you want, if you don't think some people hate him or think his season isn't very impressive well, you're blind to hate (understandable considering what you've become).

Hint: ask Jamieballer what he thinks of Westy's season, and he's far from alone...

i have not said one bad thing about his season unless you take snippets of my posts and strip them of context. which appears to be your agenda on this topic.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 01:22 PM
First you're under the false assumption Westbrook himself is the one padding his stats, as if he's telling the bigs to get out of the way to get him rebounds. I think it's far more likely his teammates are the ones allowing him to get the rebounds because they want to see him get the triple double. Hopefully you're capable of seeing that distinction.

i agree there is no reason to think IMO that westbrook is trying to steal rebounds, none whatsoever. nonetheless, the alternative explanation (which i also do not believe, although i'm not firm on that) you are offering - that makes it better?

what good is a historic achievement if it's not earned? that to me is way worse than what i am saying, which is simply that it deserves a mental asterisk beside it.

ewing
04-09-2017, 01:33 PM
there is absolutely zero basis for these comments. he's a great player and he's had a great year. and the fact that you are quoting me but not even addressing my points just weakens your argument. tell me why we shouldn't consider this when evaluating a players stats instead of weakly trolling me instead. we make judgements on players and compare their performance in large part due to their stats. if the numbers are not trustworthy then the basis for comparison falls down.

as an example. kyrie irving is a pretty darn good player. do you know how many defensive rebounds he has on free throw misses? the answer is 5. westbrook last i checked had 97. 97! if the cavaliers adopted a similar approach guess who just joined the rather exclusive 25/5/5 club. now would i criticize irving for that. no, just as i am not actually criticizing westbrook here. but you can see how perception can become distorted by systematic changes that are not universally applied.

Omg teams run different systems?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

valade16
04-09-2017, 01:35 PM
i have not said one bad thing about his season unless you take snippets of my posts and strip them of context. which appears to be your agenda on this topic.

No need to lie to make yourself look better. In any earlier MVP thread you said him winning MVP was comparable to AI and/or Rose winning it. You were bashing the season left and right lol

valade16
04-09-2017, 01:41 PM
Its irrelevant if its him or not making the call. Let's break it down. Is scoring 31 ppg while shooting the ball 24 times a night and 10.5 Free Throws a night incredible? Of course not. Give dozens of players in this league that volume of shots and they're putting up 30+ a night. I'd Is averaging 10.4 assists a night while turning it over 5.5 times a game some incredible achievement to you? It's not for most. So it comes down to the combination of two volume based totals (highest USG% in NBA history) along with his rebound stats that pushed him over 10 a game. Rebounds that no other guard in history has been privy to. And it's why his total is so abnormally high for a guard. You can be part of the blind group that just shouts "it's incredible I don't care what u say haterz!!", but I choose to break it down and see if for what it is; a great season that was heavily influenced to look more impressive on paper than it actually was. People legitimately calling it one of the greatest seasons in history is just funny to me. It wasn't even the best season THIS season.

First, really sounds like you think it's impressive :laugh2:

Second, it's not like his traditional boxscore is the only thing that looks good.

He'a leading both Harden and Kawhi in VORP, BPM, PER, and ESPN's RPM and Wins.

Virtually every measure is saying Westbrook's impact on the court has been among the top guys in the league. I'd start my question with; what seasons do you think have been better and what is your argument for them?

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 02:02 PM
No need to lie to make yourself look better. In any earlier MVP thread you said him winning MVP was comparable to AI and/or Rose winning it. You were bashing the season left and right lol

just because i believe that to be true does not mean that i am criticizing the season he has posted. you can think he's had a great year without believing he is deserving of an MVP. Iverson and Rose both had statistically impressive seasons and neither was a legitimate MVP.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 02:04 PM
Omg teams run different systems?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

again, feel free to just skip past my posts if you aren't going to contribute to the actual discussion.

valade16
04-09-2017, 02:17 PM
just because i believe that to be true does not mean that i am criticizing the season he has posted. you can think he's had a great year without believing he is deserving of an MVP. Iverson and Rose both had statistically impressive seasons and neither was a legitimate MVP.

I think most people would see that as criticism.

tredigs
04-09-2017, 02:39 PM
First, really sounds like you think it's impressive :laugh2:

Second, it's not like his traditional boxscore is the only thing that looks good.

He'a leading both Harden and Kawhi in VORP, BPM, PER, and ESPN's RPM and Wins.

Virtually every measure is saying Westbrook's impact on the court has been among the top guys in the league. I'd start my question with; what seasons do you think have been better and what is your argument for them?

A lot of his advanced stats that are box-score centric are through the roof of course, but when you get into two that I trust a bit more than others, he falls a little flat. From the main ones, WS/48 and RPM he isn't even top 5 in the league. If we were witnessing some legendary season for the ages and not just a box-score achievement, that just would not be the case. As for who in history has had better seasons, lol, I'm not sure where to start? To narrow to the last 20 years alone the peak of guys like Wade, KG, Duncan, Curry, 'Bron, Dirk, Shaq, CP3, T-Mac and Durant are all better. And I'm not including some others that are more debatable. Westbrook's offense has been stellar, but it's a sheer brute-force volume based season, and his defense is absolutely atrocious. I will say that his clutch play has been awesome and it's a big reason why I'm good with him winning MVP this year (honestly not sure who I'd vote for).

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 02:50 PM
I think most people would see that as criticism.

i am not responsible for people who cannot discern the difference between "this guy winning MVP would be a joke" and "this guy sucks".

tredigs
04-09-2017, 03:03 PM
One big positive for Westbrook I will say is the fact that he's capable of keeping this up over the course of a full season. I think there are a lot of players in history in their prime who given the reigns and usage that he has (along with not playing defense) would put up more impressive campaigns, but I don't think many would be able to be as strong at the end of the season that he is. His motor is something to behold.

Scoots
04-09-2017, 03:12 PM
I'm not arguing with you it isn't as impressive. I think he'd get more love if he did it 'naturally'. I'm saying what he's doing is still so impressive that there isn't a reason for me to bring it down, especially because he's doing it at the benefit of the team.

Is it as impressive as a natural triple double? Maybe not. But what he's doing is still so hard that there's no reason for me to do anything but praise his performance regardless. Really just looking at another side of the coin.

It's as if some of you people want to 'punish' him for chasing triple doubles.

Good post. It's an amazing achievement ... to me, this year, it's just not the most amazing.

Scoots
04-09-2017, 03:15 PM
Its irrelevant if its him or not making the call. Let's break it down. Is scoring 31 ppg while shooting the ball 24 times a night and 10.5 Free Throws a night incredible? Of course not. Give dozens of players in this league that volume of shots and they're putting up 30+ a night. I'd Is averaging 10.4 assists a night while turning it over 5.5 times a game some incredible achievement to you? It's not for most. So it comes down to the combination of two volume based totals (highest USG% in NBA history) along with his rebound stats that pushed him over 10 a game. Rebounds that no other guard in history has been privy to. And it's why his total is so abnormally high for a guard. You can be part of the blind group that just shouts "it's incredible I don't care what u say haterz!!", but I choose to break it down and see if for what it is; a great season that was heavily influenced to look more impressive on paper than it actually was. People legitimately calling it one of the greatest seasons in history is just funny to me. It wasn't even the best season THIS season.

I agree. It's an incredible achievement and clearly incredibly hard to do ... just not "the best"

Cracka2HI!
04-09-2017, 03:49 PM
ESPN is garbage and has been trending that way for some time. I have almost completely stopped watching/reading them. I like to take my sports without a side of politics. The political firings of Sage Steele and Doug Adler along with them constantly pushing political agendas is not what I'm looking for in my sports.

Scoots
04-09-2017, 04:02 PM
First you're under the false assumption Westbrook himself is the one padding his stats, as if he's telling the bigs to get out of the way to get him rebounds. I think it's far more likely his teammates are the ones allowing him to get the rebounds because they want to see him get the triple double. Hopefully you're capable of seeing that distinction.

I've seen him push bigs out of the way of an uncontested rebound more than once. We don't know who's idea it was, but we do know that Westy is all in on it.

ewing
04-09-2017, 04:08 PM
again, feel free to just skip past my posts if you aren't going to contribute to the actual discussion.


I was summarizing your insightful content. You hate Westbrook. You say him being MVP would be a joke. Well, if he didn't get the free throw rebounds and he he won MVP while averaging 9 rebounds and doing everything else he is doing would it be a joke? Sorry if you think so your a joke. I'll admit i have not watched Russell Westbrook or James Harden more then 10 time each this season. They both have great stats and lead there teams to win totals that are impressive given the roster. Both are good MVP picks. If i had a pick i would vote for Westbrook. I like Westbrook. I enjoy watching him play. I enjoy watching the Thunder and i think they take a lot there identity from Westbrook. Is that bias? Yes but at least i admit it. I also don't search out arguments to delegitimize a guys accomplishments. You say other guys let him get rebounds. I say so what. If he wasn't a great rebounding guard that was capable of doing it they wouldn't do it either. He's 100% earning it. Scoots has made posts saying that his emphasis on rebounding has hurt his D. That's a legit criticism. yours is nothing but hate. You don't like him and you root against him. Its OK just admit it.

valade16
04-09-2017, 04:08 PM
A lot of his advanced stats that are box-score centric are through the roof of course, but when you get into two that I trust a bit more than others, he falls a little flat. From the main ones, WS/48 and RPM he isn't even top 5 in the league. If we were witnessing some legendary season for the ages and not just a box-score achievement, that just would not be the case. As for who in history has had better seasons, lol, I'm not sure where to start? To narrow to the last 20 years alone the peak of guys like Wade, KG, Duncan, Curry, 'Bron, Dirk, Shaq, CP3, T-Mac and Durant are all better. And I'm not including some others that are more debatable. Westbrook's offense has been stellar, but it's a sheer brute-force volume based season, and his defense is absolutely atrocious. I will say that his clutch play has been awesome and it's a big reason why I'm good with him winning MVP this year (honestly not sure who I'd vote for).

First, I was talking about this season who has had a better year (since you keep saying he hasn't had the greatest season this season), I've never said his season is one of the greatest of all-time...

Second, Westbrook has a better plus/minus than both Kawhi and Harden;m, the other 2 main contenders. WS are more influenced by the team than the other stats which goes a long way to explain why his is not quite at the level of the others.

If you don't think that Westy has had the best season this year (as you've indicated), why would you vote for him for MVP?

valade16
04-09-2017, 04:15 PM
i am not responsible for people who cannot discern the difference between "this guy winning MVP would be a joke" and "this guy sucks".

It's all relative, if someone said Michael Jordan is the 11th best player all-time, clearly they don't think he sucks... but we all know they're bashing MJ don't we?

If you don't think saying Westy is a joke MVP candidate is a form of criticism, well enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-09-2017, 04:16 PM
Fair enough, I'm not trying to suggest he hasn't had a great year. But he is quite literally being nudged into historic territory by these gifts. And almost historic and historic are treated and remembered quite differently, that's all.

And yes, they are gifts. What percentage of missed free throws are rebounded by the offensive team? It's miniscule.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Well someone's got to get them.

To me, the triple double part doesn't matter too much how you got it as opposed to just obtaining the result. Whereas the MVP is something you need to consider the journey. Like you said earlier, if Curry camped under the basket, then he's the leading scorer, but unless people are rewarding him the MVP and giving him recognition he doesn't deserve because of the 35 PPG, then the harm is minimal.

I wouldn't reward the MVP to Russell simply just because the triple double but if you took the pros and cons of his season (including factoring him chasing the triple double), he would still be a great candidate (probably #1) for MVP. Those 2 combined averaging a triple double and doing it at such a high level is what makes it historical.

tredigs
04-09-2017, 04:22 PM
First, I was talking about this season who has had a better year (since you keep saying he hasn't had the greatest season this season), I've never said his season is one of the greatest of all-time...

Second, Westbrook has a better plus/minus than both Kawhi and Harden;m, the other 2 main contenders. WS are more influenced by the team than the other stats which goes a long way to explain why his is not quite at the level of the others.

If you don't think that Westy has had the best season this year (as you've indicated), why would you vote for him for MVP?

If you're just saying this season, then I misinterpreted your point. MVP is about narrative as much as "best season", and I think his narrative/season are both among the best this year. Though I think Harden, Kawhi and Lebron have all been better this year. KD and Curry are both better right now as well, though as far as this season goes, I think you could rank Westbrook's above them (though seeing them all on the court 4 times this year, it was pretty clear to me that Westbrook was not the best player on the floor). I won't dig my feet in the sand against somebody saying Westbrook had the best season, though. I disagree but he certainly has a case. MANY people though consider this one of the greatest seasons in history (we just had a thread comparing it to Curry last year, and many thought Westbrook's was better, and that is frankly pretty laughable to me), and that is where I draw the line. Great season, but other than the inflated rebound total that made it a triple double (something that wasn't a thing anybody cared about in the early 90's and before), it doesn't stack up to the legendary seasons.

ewing
04-09-2017, 04:24 PM
If you're just saying this season, then I misinterpreted your point. MVP is about narrative as much as "best season", and I think his narrative/season are both among the best this year. Though I think Harden, Kawhi and Lebron have all been better this year. KD and Curry are both better right now as well, though as far as this season goes, I think you could rank Westbrook's above them (though seeing them all on the court 4 times this year, it was pretty clear to me that Westbrook was not the best player on the floor). I won't dig my feet in the sand against somebody saying Westbrook had the best season, though. I disagree but he certainly has a case. MANY people though consider this one of the greatest seasons in history (we just had a thread comparing it to Curry last year, and many thought Westbrook's was better, and that is frankly pretty laughable to me), and that is where I draw the line. Great season, but other than the inflated rebound total that made it a triple double (something that wasn't a thing anybody cared about in the early 90's and before), it doesn't stack up to the legendary seasons.


Not everything is about Warriors dude. Also KD has missed over 20 games and his team doesn't need him to win and Bron's team has clearly underachievied. It's not The Who scored the highest in my 2 favorite stats award.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 04:38 PM
I was summarizing your insightful content. You hate Westbrook. You say him being MVP would be a joke. Well, if he didn't get the free throw rebounds and he he won MVP while averaging 9 rebounds and doing everything else he is doing would it be a joke? Sorry if you think so your a joke. I'll admit i have not watched Russell Westbrook or James Harden more then 10 time each this season. They both have great stats and lead there teams to win totals that are impressive given the roster. Both are good MVP picks. If i had a pick i would vote for Westbrook. I like Westbrook. I enjoy watching him play. I enjoy watching the Thunder and i think they take a lot there identity from Westbrook. Is that bias? Yes but at least i admit it. I also don't search out arguments to delegitimize a guys accomplishments. You say other guys let him get rebounds. I say so what. If he wasn't a great rebounding guard that was capable of doing it they wouldn't do it either. He's 100% earning it. Scoots has made posts saying that his emphasis on rebounding has hurt his D. That's a legit criticism. yours is nothing but hate. You don't like him and you root against him. Its OK just admit it.

lmao whatever you say friend. if you want to crown him MVP because he almost earned a triple double for the season i've got no issue with that. if you want to deny that it's artificial that's another story.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 04:43 PM
It's all relative, if someone said Michael Jordan is the 11th best player all-time, clearly they don't think he sucks... but we all know they're bashing MJ don't we?

If you don't think saying Westy is a joke MVP candidate is a form of criticism, well enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

well sure it's a form of criticism, but of who? not the player, the masses. it's the same conversation we had 10-15 years ago over Iverson, it's just this time he's a better more well rounded player that's all.

you are acting as though saying him winning MVP is a joke is the same as saying he is a joke, and it's not. anytime a really good player wins the MVP it is by my definition a joke because the league always has someone who performs at an elite level. i just don't believe he is at that level. as tredigs said it's brute force numbers and overwhelming usage that has put him in this stratosphere. you don't agree, that's OK.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 04:48 PM
Well someone's got to get them.

To me, the triple double part doesn't matter too much how you got it as opposed to just obtaining the result. Whereas the MVP is something you need to consider the journey. Like you said earlier, if Curry camped under the basket, then he's the leading scorer, but unless people are rewarding him the MVP and giving him recognition he doesn't deserve because of the 35 PPG, then the harm is minimal.

I wouldn't reward the MVP to Russell simply just because the triple double but if you took the pros and cons of his season (including factoring him chasing the triple double), he would still be a great candidate (probably #1) for MVP. Those 2 combined averaging a triple double and doing it at such a high level is what makes it historical.

that's fine, you sound reasonable on this and i have no problem simply disagreeing with you on how impressive that is.

ewing
04-09-2017, 04:53 PM
lmao whatever you say friend. if you want to crown him MVP because he almost earned a triple double for the season i've got no issue with that. if you want to deny that it's artificial that's another story.

He didn't get the rebounds?

tredigs
04-09-2017, 04:55 PM
Not everything is about Warriors dude. Also KD has missed over 20 games and his team doesn't need him to win and Bron's team has clearly underachievied. It's not The Who scored the highest in my 2 favorite stats award.

Pretty terrible rebuttal, I'm not saying anything about the Warriors in particular other than to highlight that if a player is outperforming everybody in the league, he should look like the best player on the court when facing the other best players. I don't think he did in any of those particular matchups. Concerning RPM and WS/48 (stats I trust much more than PER, which are heavily influenced by his historically high usage rate/shots taken, etc), I'm saying that looking back you will be hard pressed to find a season considered historic where a guy is not top 5 in those stats. It's an indicator that he's probably not the creme de la creme (and I don't think that's a hot take what so ever).

ewing
04-09-2017, 05:07 PM
Pretty terrible rebuttal, I'm not saying anything about the Warriors in particular other than to highlight that if a player is outperforming everybody in the league, he should look like the best player on the court when facing the other best players. I don't think he did in any of those particular matchups. Concerning RPM and WS/48 (stats I trust much more than PER, which are heavily influenced by his historically high usage rate/shots taken, etc), I'm saying that looking back you will be hard pressed to find a season considered historic where a guy is not top 5 in those stats. It's an indicator that he's probably not the creme de la creme (and I don't think that's a hot take what so ever).


you back to your OMG don't disrespect Curry's greatness by talking about Westy's season. you are talking to yourself. Anyway back to this seasons MVP conversation. you're team has to meet or exceed expectations to have an MVP. You also have to be needed for that success to occur. That eliminates LeBron and KD. that was my point. also why would i look at every great season to see if guys did good in your stats? All that would tell me is it is unlikely that someone would be super impactful with being top 5 in those stats.

valade16
04-09-2017, 05:14 PM
well sure it's a form of criticism, but of who? not the player, the masses. it's the same conversation we had 10-15 years ago over Iverson, it's just this time he's a better more well rounded player that's all.

you are acting as though saying him winning MVP is a joke is the same as saying he is a joke, and it's not. anytime a really good player wins the MVP it is by my definition a joke because the league always has someone who performs at an elite level. i just don't believe he is at that level. as tredigs said it's brute force numbers and overwhelming usage that has put him in this stratosphere. you don't agree, that's OK.

It's just funny that your main criticism seems to be "the only reason he looks so good is he's doing so much!"

valade16
04-09-2017, 05:21 PM
Pretty terrible rebuttal, I'm not saying anything about the Warriors in particular other than to highlight that if a player is outperforming everybody in the league, he should look like the best player on the court when facing the other best players. I don't think he did in any of those particular matchups. Concerning RPM and WS/48 (stats I trust much more than PER, which are heavily influenced by his historically high usage rate/shots taken, etc), I'm saying that looking back you will be hard pressed to find a season considered historic where a guy is not top 5 in those stats. It's an indicator that he's probably not the creme de la creme (and I don't think that's a hot take what so ever).

By that measure neither Kawhi nor Harden are creme de la creme since both are below Westy in RPM (speaking of just this season).

Doesn't that disqualify both of them? In fact, here are the top 5 plus/minus and WS/48:

1. CP3
2. Bron
3. Curry
4. Butler
5. Gobert

1. KD
2. Kawhi
3. CP3
4. Gobert
5. IT

So the only two guys who are top 5 in both are CP3 and Gobert. CP3 has only played 59 games so apparently Gobert is the best player in the league this season.

Also, Westbrook actually has the #1 Offensive Plus Minus in the whole league, ahead of Curry (who is #2).

Even by advanced measures, Westbrook certainly has a case over Kawhi and Harden.

FlashBolt
04-09-2017, 05:26 PM
By that measure neither Kawhi nor Harden are creme de la creme since both are below Westy in RPM (speaking of just this season).

Doesn't that disqualify both of them? In fact, here are the top 5 plus/minus and WS/48:

1. CP3
2. Bron
3. Curry
4. Butler
5. Gobert

1. KD
2. Kawhi
3. CP3
4. Gobert
5. IT

So the only two guys who are top 5 in both are CP3 and Gobert. CP3 has only played 59 games so apparently Gobert is the best player in the league this season.

Also, Westbrook actually has the #1 Offensive Plus Minus in the whole league, ahead of Curry (who is #2).

Even by advanced measures, Westbrook certainly has a case over Kawhi and Harden.

I guess it's a, what did he say, terrible rebuttal from his part...

tredigs
04-09-2017, 06:00 PM
you back to your OMG don't disrespect Curry's greatness by talking about Westy's season. you are talking to yourself. Anyway back to this seasons MVP conversation. you're team has to meet or exceed expectations to have an MVP. You also have to be needed for that success to occur. That eliminates LeBron and KD. that was my point. also why would i look at every great season to see if guys did good in your stats? All that would tell me is it is unlikely that someone would be super impactful with being top 5 in those stats.

You re literally arguing your own point against yourself here. I've already stated as far as MAP narrative goes I'm fine with Westbrook. There team is not really outperforming expectations though. Maybe by a few games at most.

valade16
04-09-2017, 06:47 PM
You re literally arguing your own point against yourself here. I've already stated as far as MAP narrative goes I'm fine with Westbrook. There team is not really outperforming expectations though. Maybe by a few games at most.

That's a good point. I think the Rockets are clearly outperforming their preseason prediction the most of any team (and any team with an MVP contender).

tredigs
04-09-2017, 07:19 PM
By that measure neither Kawhi nor Harden are creme de la creme since both are below Westy in RPM (speaking of just this season).

Doesn't that disqualify both of them? In fact, here are the top 5 plus/minus and WS/48:

1. CP3
2. Bron
3. Curry
4. Butler
5. Gobert

1. KD
2. Kawhi
3. CP3
4. Gobert
5. IT

So the only two guys who are top 5 in both are CP3 and Gobert. CP3 has only played 59 games so apparently Gobert is the best player in the league this season.

Also, Westbrook actually has the #1 Offensive Plus Minus in the whole league, ahead of Curry (who is #2).

Even by advanced measures, Westbrook certainly has a case over Kawhi and Harden.

Correct, you are not refuting anything I'm saying. There's no historically dominant season this year.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 07:34 PM
It's just funny that your main criticism seems to be "the only reason he looks so good is he's doing so much!"
that's ridiculous, i've never said anything close to it. no point in continuing this conversation.

Vinny642
04-09-2017, 07:36 PM
MVP..... thats it

More-Than-Most
04-09-2017, 07:51 PM
50/16/10 on 53 percent shooting with 2 turnovers and 1 steal... WITH THE GAME WINNING SHOT ON THE RECORD BREAKING TRIP/DOUB... M ****ing V P


Needs to chill out with all those rebounds doh... hurting his team and **** man



Id legit jerk off a gorilla if OKA grabbed 16 rebounds over a 3 game span and westy does it in one game... BUT YO

More-Than-Most
04-09-2017, 07:58 PM
Westbrook won the game with a 36-foot 3-pointer at the buzzer to cap Oklahoma City's rally from 13 points down over the final 4:34. The Thunder scored 18 during that span, with Westbrook scoring or assisting on all of them.

Just gonna leave this little tidbit right here

Crackadalic
04-09-2017, 08:00 PM
So people are upset he stat padded 2-3 extra rebounds? lol

I'm sure he isn't the best basketball player this season and even if the triple double is just another arbitrary number the media created to hype a player up, fact of the matter is of he's not doing what he is doing I have to argue they are no worst then the kings post Cousins

valade16
04-09-2017, 08:14 PM
that's ridiculous, i've never said anything close to it. no point in continuing this conversation.

"Brute force numbers and overwhelming usage"

Again, enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

FlashBolt
04-09-2017, 08:21 PM
Westbrook is the MVP. Sorry, but this was the icing.

tredigs
04-09-2017, 08:21 PM
"Brute force numbers and overwhelming usage"

Again, enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

That was me, and how is that undeniable? He's done extremely well in that role, but it's a Usage rate literally never before seen in history.

Westbrook will win MVP though. And I'm good with it. It was heavily favoring Harden a few weeks ago but he turned the tide in recent games.

Edit: I do know that ballots have already been sent out and filled by many people though (Don't ask me why), and some who may have changed their tune for him may not have that chance.

ewing
04-09-2017, 08:29 PM
Westbrook won the game with a 36-foot 3-pointer at the buzzer to cap Oklahoma City's rally from 13 points down over the final 4:34. The Thunder scored 18 during that span, with Westbrook scoring or assisting on all of them.

Just gonna leave this little tidbit right here

it was a unnatural buzz beater.

sens#11fan
04-09-2017, 08:42 PM
Well I'm glad he's getting a lot of good ESPN coverage this season because prior to this season he's only been getting bad publicity from ESPN/due to holding KD back. You can say whatever you want about his trouble doubles but it's something that hasn't been done since the 60s.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 09:22 PM
^ and this is exactly my point valade, ewing, raps.

you can say whatever you want but it's something that hasn't been done since the 60's (and wouldn't be done this year, either)

ewing
04-09-2017, 09:25 PM
^ and this is exactly my point valade, ewing, raps.

you can say whatever you want but it's something that hasn't been done since the 60's (and wouldn't be done this year, either)

it has been done, he did it.

Jamiecballer
04-09-2017, 09:26 PM
"Brute force numbers and overwhelming usage"

Again, enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

apparently you only remember the last thing you read. but that isn't quite the same thing anyways as i'm sure you well know.

enjoy continuing to distort my point of view in the hopes people can't be bothered to keep up though.

valade16
04-09-2017, 11:04 PM
That was me, and how is that undeniable? He's done extremely well in that role, but it's a Usage rate literally never before seen in history.

Westbrook will win MVP though. And I'm good with it. It was heavily favoring Harden a few weeks ago but he turned the tide in recent games.

Edit: I do know that ballots have already been sent out and filled by many people though (Don't ask me why), and some who may have changed their tune for him may not have that chance.

My point is, you keep saying this as if it's a knock against his candidacy. How is that kind of Usage not impressive? If it's not detrimental to the team (as every statistic shows it's not), why should that be a knock against him?

For instance, when Curry won his MVP last year, nobody was saying "yeah but he was doing it on a 3PTA number we've literally never seen before". I mean if Larry Bird were taking 11 3's a game who knows how many more points he'd take?

Isn't that the same sort of hypothetical people keep using of "well if X player had his Usage he'd be putting up Y stats"?


apparently you only remember the last thing you read. but that isn't quite the same thing anyways as i'm sure you well know.

enjoy continuing to distort my point of view in the hopes people can't be bothered to keep up though.

So explain the nuance of your point because I'm sick of you trying to tap dance around your criticism.

People can keep up, I assure you. They definitely see you trying to split hairs on your criticism.

valade16
04-09-2017, 11:05 PM
And for the record if I had a vote, I'd probably vote Harden 1st and Westbrook 2nd.

FlashBolt
04-09-2017, 11:29 PM
choices:

USG% has to go to someone. Now, I agree that too high of a USG% may be indicative of ballhogging but when that's our best chance at winning games, it is what it is. I don't trust anyone outside of maybe Oladipo to make a play. Kanter can only score in the post while Adams literally can't score unless he's given a pass within 3 ft. It's why I can't even knock Harden/Westy for their historic turnover rate. they are the best option.

Scoots
04-09-2017, 11:59 PM
choices:

USG% has to go to someone. Now, I agree that too high of a USG% may be indicative of ballhogging but when that's our best chance at winning games, it is what it is. I don't trust anyone outside of maybe Oladipo to make a play. Kanter can only score in the post while Adams literally can't score unless he's given a pass within 3 ft. It's why I can't even knock Harden/Westy for their historic turnover rate. they are the best option.

I don't think anyone would argue there are better choices on that team. I certainly didn't think he would be able to drag this team, kicking and screaming, in to the playoffs at all.

Sadds The Gr8
04-10-2017, 12:24 AM
So people are upset he stat padded 2-3 extra rebounds? lol

I'm sure he isn't the best basketball player this season and even if the triple double is just another arbitrary number the media created to hype a player up, fact of the matter is of he's not doing what he is doing I have to argue they are no worst then the kings post Cousins

I dont think ppl care about the stat pad rebounds on its own. It's more the 2nd point in your post. The media and fans are using the padded rebounds to legitimize the stupid, arbitrary stat.

I'm in the Zach Lowe camp. I think Westbrook is the MVP, but it definitely isn't because of the stupid triple double stat. If he averaged 7.7 rebs, he'd still be my MVP. (I had Harden most of the season, but he fell off the last 2-3 weeks and Westbrook snatched it with impressive clutch performances)

Jamiecballer
04-10-2017, 12:26 AM
Where have I tap danced around my criticism? My point of view is exactly the same as tredigs on this one. He's a very good player, having a very good year. He's the same player he was when Durant was there, he just was given unprecedented freedom on offense and received a little help to hit double figures in rebounding. I don't blame Westbrook for that, I just don't care for how it affects the accomplishments of other stars and historical players. I feel like the record books should be rewritten with 1.25 rebounds per game added to the numbers of every guard to to put Westbrook numbers back in proper context. And don't tell me he is doing anything to get those hundred free rebounds because he if you do then I don't believe you've seen the videos. It's not stat padding - that implies selfishness, but in a league where bigs secure those rebounds it's definitely stat distorting. And I get it, the goal is to get the ball in his hands and go on the attack as fast as possible, it's smart. Again, an incredible year, but you've already heard it in here numerous times, he did something that hasn't been done in 60 years. Does that particular achievement mean something when he was stat padding all season long to get it? That's what I've been trying to get at - you can be impressed by the sheer volume but still not like how it affects his place in history. To give an example from another sport - if someone breaks the record in the hundred meter dash you can be impressed by how fast they are but still feel a little bothered that they are in the record books if upon closer examination it is revealed the runner left 0.3s too early.



Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Sadds The Gr8
04-10-2017, 12:33 AM
My point is, you keep saying this as if it's a knock against his candidacy. How is that kind of Usage not impressive? If it's not detrimental to the team (as every statistic shows it's not), why should that be a knock against him?

For instance, when Curry won his MVP last year, nobody was saying "yeah but he was doing it on a 3PTA number we've literally never seen before". I mean if Larry Bird were taking 11 3's a game who knows how many more points he'd take?

Isn't that the same sort of hypothetical people keep using of "well if X player had his Usage he'd be putting up Y stats"?



So explain the nuance of your point because I'm sick of you trying to tap dance around your criticism.

People can keep up, I assure you. They definitely see you trying to split hairs on your criticism.

understandably, ppl assume chucker when you have a monster USG% (Westbrook definitely is a chucker). But his impressive playmaking ability and rebounding overshadow the 06 Kobe-type hoggery and ppl shouldn't look past that imo.

The logic is that "anybody can do what Westbrook is doing with that USG%", but I don't think ppl realize how much ****ing energy that takes. Westbrook goes balls out every night and takes on a huge burden (yes he unnecessarily pads rebs), and it's incredible what he's doing. I don't think many can do what Westbrook is doing. Most guys would definitely take games off (not literally sit out games, I mean not give full effort)

I personally don't even think this is a top 10 season, but he's still an amazing player and worthy MVP

ewing
04-10-2017, 06:47 AM
Where have I tap danced around my criticism? My point of view is exactly the same as tredigs on this one. He's a very good player, having a very good year. He's the same player he was when Durant was there, he just was given unprecedented freedom on offense and received a little help to hit double figures in rebounding. I don't blame Westbrook for that, I just don't care for how it affects the accomplishments of other stars and historical players. I feel like the record books should be rewritten with 1.25 rebounds per game added to the numbers of every guard to to put Westbrook numbers back in proper context. And don't tell me he is doing anything to get those hundred free rebounds because he if you do then I don't believe you've seen the videos. It's not stat padding - that implies selfishness, but in a league where bigs secure those rebounds it's definitely stat distorting. And I get it, the goal is to get the ball in his hands and go on the attack as fast as possible, it's smart. Again, an incredible year, but you've already heard it in here numerous times, he did something that hasn't been done in 60 years. Does that particular achievement mean something when he was stat padding all season long to get it? That's what I've been trying to get at - you can be impressed by the sheer volume but still not like how it affects his place in history. To give an example from another sport - if someone breaks the record in the hundred meter dash you can be impressed by how fast they are but still feel a little bothered that they are in the record books if upon closer examination it is revealed the runner left 0.3s too early.



Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Then we have to adjust Harden's #s down b/c he is a lead guard playing for Mike Dantoni. Maybe we should subtract "lucky shots" from players. What if the team you are playing against is tanking or resting everyone? Do your #s not count? What if a guy plays for a team that is super physical and creates a slow pace like Zeke's Pistons, do we adjust his #s up? Or do we just do this for Westbrook? It seems like you might be picking on him? Are you a fan?

mngopher35
04-10-2017, 11:41 AM
^yup I would ask a similar question.

It seems people get that Westbrook coming in and taking those rebounds makes sense for the team as their primary (only great) playmaker who can bring it up quickly/himself after. Sure overall them allowing Westbrook to grab rebounds while they box out is going to help his numbers but it's not some major negative for the team just a strategy to get the ball in his hands (best for team in his hands).

So in the same sense we know the spacing of rockets and their use of analytics to be efficient, do we knock some of hardens efficiency because the teams system/strategy possibly helping his numbers? What about dantoni and seeing his system put up numbers in the past should we knock say 10-20% of his stats like we want with Westbrooks rebounds because the system likely helps him statistically?

I would argue against someone trying to downgrade harden for those reasons personally just like I really don't understand one side of the argument in here. Of course I can agree he is getting a little overhyped for this accomplishment despite getting a team boost to get here, no one really thought it was happening again and he has had arguably had the best season impact wise as well. It's what ESPN does.

Scoots
04-10-2017, 12:26 PM
I don't buy that Westy getting the uncontested rebounds helps the team at all. A pass is always faster than dribbling. Any one of their players can grab that rebound and throw it ahead to Westbrook to get him the ball. In the current NBA there is very little half court pressure, let alone full court. Every team has a few guys you don't want trying to bring the ball up, but most can manage to get it started and doing that is faster than having your lead guard start every possession from under your own basket.

mngopher35
04-10-2017, 01:16 PM
Yes if your team is capable of longer outlet passes and can sift through defense getting back sure, many times people extending their role to make tougher plays leads to turnovers though. I have obviously never coached on the nba level but it is a strategy I know many lower level coaches use with their studs (no matter what position) to get it into the playmakers hands as early as possible (normally for them the surrounding talent would be much worse but the lack of creators/playmakers on okc is evident IMO).

I am not saying that this strategy alone is a big boost to their team etc but it is one they have adopted to fit their team/system. Just like the benefits harden gets from his.

Jamiecballer
04-10-2017, 01:38 PM
Then we have to adjust Harden's #s down b/c he is a lead guard playing for Mike Dantoni. Maybe we should subtract "lucky shots" from players. What if the team you are playing against is tanking or resting everyone? Do your #s not count? What if a guy plays for a team that is super physical and creates a slow pace like Zeke's Pistons, do we adjust his #s up? Or do we just do this for Westbrook? It seems like you might be picking on him? Are you a fan?

i get where you are coming from, believe me, i really do. but those examples involve a lot judgement to be made where something like this does not.

as for whether i am a fan i believe you know that i am not but believe it or not this has absolutely nothing to do with westbrook for me. i have not brought up any criticisms of his game except when badgered by others who decided i was a "hater" first.

i am a fan of lebron james but i would be just as bothered if he was the one being celebrated for some great achievement that he really hasn't earned. and before you lose your marbles, obviously he is picking up the basketball on these freebies, but that is something that you or i can do. what we can't do are all the other things that he does that make him a very, very good basketball player.

the numbers should mean something, that's all i'm saying, because we use those numbers to debate endlessly the relative greatness of player x versus player y. where do we place westbrook all-time as a rebounding guard? you don't think special consideration should be given to how to accumulated 10.7 per game, i sure do.

ewing
04-10-2017, 01:45 PM
I don't buy that Westy getting the uncontested rebounds helps the team at all. A pass is always faster than dribbling. Any one of their players can grab that rebound and throw it ahead to Westbrook to get him the ball. In the current NBA there is very little half court pressure, let alone full court. Every team has a few guys you don't want trying to bring the ball up, but most can manage to get it started and doing that is faster than having your lead guard start every possession from under your own basket.

Not true at all. If Westy was leaking instead of crashing when an outlet pass was available it would get the ball down floor much faster. The fact that Westbrook is going to the glass changes things. Adams getting the rebound, locating Westy and throwing him a 2 foot pass is not faster. Also the passing lane for an immediate up floor pass will not always be available even if he was leaking. The ball in the air does move faster then a the player but that up floor pass must be available.

ewing
04-10-2017, 01:50 PM
i get where you are coming from, believe me, i really do. but those examples involve a lot judgement to be made where something like this does not.

as for whether i am a fan i believe you know that i am not but believe it or not this has absolutely nothing to do with westbrook for me. i have not brought up any criticisms of his game except when badgered by others who decided i was a "hater" first.

i am a fan of lebron james but i would be just as bothered if he was the one being celebrated for some great achievement that he really hasn't earned. and before you lose your marbles, obviously he is picking up the basketball on these freebies, but that is something that you or i can do. what we can't do are all the other things that he does that make him a very, very good basketball player.

the numbers should mean something, that's all i'm saying, because we use those numbers to debate endlessly the relative greatness of player x versus player y. where do we place westbrook all-time as a rebounding guard? you don't think special consideration should be given to how to accumulated 10.7 per game, i sure do.


I don't think you should judge **** on 10.7 alone. That's why i'm not one of these posters that acts like he knows something about Wilt, or Bill Walton, etc etc. I never saw them. I've seen Westy go get the ball. He is real good getting to a lose ball. The numbers do back that up, slightly inflated or not. westbrook is a good rebounding guard b/c I know he can go get the ball. the numbers just back that up they are not a stand alone

Chronz
04-10-2017, 02:04 PM
Not true at all. If Westy was leaking instead of crashing when an outlet pass was available it would get the ball down floor much faster. The fact that Westbrook is going to the glass changes things. Adams getting the rebound, locating Westy and throwing him a 2 foot pass is not faster. Also the passing lane for an immediate up floor pass will not always be available even if he was leaking. The ball in the air does move faster then a the player but that up floor pass must be available.

Yeah those are the rebounds his team seems to benefit the most from as they lead to quicker shots in transition. I just dont buy that all of them are worth pursuing (to the point of contesting very few 3's) and if they are, its still the result of a mediocre offense incapable of producing in the halfcourt.

Hard to choose quantity over quality but when it comes with a fashionable term like the triple double, its damn near impossible to argue against for most I think.

Chronz
04-10-2017, 02:13 PM
Not true at all. If Westy was leaking instead of crashing when an outlet pass was available it would get the ball down floor much faster. The fact that Westbrook is going to the glass changes things. Adams getting the rebound, locating Westy and throwing him a 2 foot pass is not faster. Also the passing lane for an immediate up floor pass will not always be available even if he was leaking. The ball in the air does move faster then a the player but that up floor pass must be available.

Kidd could track long rebounds faster than most and his bigs would typically allow him to grab uncontested ones to get the break started. In both cases these guys were known among the fastest with the ball end to end so if anyone could outrun the pass, it would be them.

That said, even back when Jason Kidd used to selfishly seek rebounds (IMO anyways) to up his trade value and get off the Nets, the guy would still contest alot of shots on the perimeter. I dont see RWB do that, alot of times he just cheats off his man and forces them to make a dare shot.

Houston is the perfect test sample for this, they've crushed OKC this year but come playoffs, superstars tend to play more within a team aspect. RWB will either confirm that him chasing rebounds and not contesting on the perimeter doesn't work against a 3pt bombing team and it will be a short series. OR he proves it by contesting more shots and not chasing boards and making it a competitive series. OR He does it his way and shocks the world.

Chronz
04-10-2017, 02:14 PM
Could it be that RWB switches so constantly because his teams know he can grab boards like a big?

ewing
04-10-2017, 02:23 PM
Kidd could track long rebounds faster than most and his bigs would typically allow him to grab uncontested ones to get the break started. In both cases these guys were known among the fastest with the ball end to end so if anyone could outrun the pass, it would be them.

That said, even back when Jason Kidd used to selfishly seek rebounds (IMO anyways) to up his trade value and get off the Nets, the guy would still contest alot of shots on the perimeter. I dont see RWB do that, alot of times he just cheats off his man and forces them to make a dare shot.

Houston is the perfect test sample for this, they've crushed OKC this year but come playoffs, superstars tend to play more within a team aspect. RWB will either confirm that him chasing rebounds and not contesting on the perimeter doesn't work against a 3pt bombing team and it will be a short series. OR he proves it by contesting more shots and not chasing boards and making it a competitive series. OR He does it his way and shocks the world.

Yeah, his contest % is the one seemingly legit criticism I've seen since PSD starting debating the value of his season. I can't say why its so low b/c i haven't watch enough and it was not something I was looking for when i did but it is concerning.

FlashBolt
04-10-2017, 02:36 PM
I won't lie here. Westy does leave his man open and switches often so he can stay as close to the rim as possible. I'm not sure if that's a strategy but it's about 2-3 rebounds he's getting just because he's leaving his man open.

Jamiecballer
04-10-2017, 02:49 PM
Not true at all. If Westy was leaking instead of crashing when an outlet pass was available it would get the ball down floor much faster. The fact that Westbrook is going to the glass changes things. Adams getting the rebound, locating Westy and throwing him a 2 foot pass is not faster. Also the passing lane for an immediate up floor pass will not always be available even if he was leaking. The ball in the air does move faster then a the player but that up floor pass must be available.

completely agree. when westbrook gets the ball immediately it creates immediate pressure on the other team that is completely tangible and very very smart.

valade16
04-10-2017, 03:08 PM
Yeah those are the rebounds his team seems to benefit the most from as they lead to quicker shots in transition. I just dont buy that all of them are worth pursuing (to the point of contesting very few 3's) and if they are, its still the result of a mediocre offense incapable of producing in the halfcourt.

Hard to choose quantity over quality but when it comes with a fashionable term like the triple double, its damn near impossible to argue against for most I think.

I think OKC is 3rd in fastbreak points, so i think they realize they aren't very good in the half court.

valade16
04-10-2017, 03:11 PM
i get where you are coming from, believe me, i really do. but those examples involve a lot judgement to be made where something like this does not.

as for whether i am a fan i believe you know that i am not but believe it or not this has absolutely nothing to do with westbrook for me. i have not brought up any criticisms of his game except when badgered by others who decided i was a "hater" first.

i am a fan of lebron james but i would be just as bothered if he was the one being celebrated for some great achievement that he really hasn't earned. and before you lose your marbles, obviously he is picking up the basketball on these freebies, but that is something that you or i can do. what we can't do are all the other things that he does that make him a very, very good basketball player.

the numbers should mean something, that's all i'm saying, because we use those numbers to debate endlessly the relative greatness of player x versus player y. where do we place westbrook all-time as a rebounding guard? you don't think special consideration should be given to how to accumulated 10.7 per game, i sure do.

Well all the best rebounding guards generally have one thing in common: they're tall. The best rebounding PGs are like Magic, Big O, Kidd (who wasn't super tall but still 6'4"). Westy being able to grab even 7 rebounds per game as a 6'2" PG is impressive.

What other PGs have monster rebounding numbers? Fat Lever?

FlashBolt
04-10-2017, 03:25 PM
Well all the best rebounding guards generally have one thing in common: they're tall. The best rebounding PGs are like Magic, Big O, Kidd (who wasn't super tall but still 6'4"). Westy being able to grab even 7 rebounds per game as a 6'2" PG is impressive.

What other PGs have monster rebounding numbers? Fat Lever?

Rondo also comes to mind. Averaged 6-7 rebounds for a couple of seasons I believe. Fat Lever was definitely a good rebounder. incredible positioning from him to get rebounds. But none of these guys being mentioned was ever the motor scoring-wise that RWB is. What pisses me off is when people say RWB is stat-stuffing for them when the past two seasons before this, he was averaging 7 rebounds. What's gone is KD and his 7-8 rebounds per game along with Ibaka. So most of those rebounding responsibilities have now gone to RWB. people don't realize we're #1 in rebounding for the third season in a row and that has a lot to do with RWB fighting for every board.

btw, do we include Harden as a PG? I hate doing that but he's averaging 8 right now.

Jeffy25
04-10-2017, 07:46 PM
ESPN is a joke and has been for a very very long time.

Unless you are a Yankee/Red Sox/Laker/Patriots/football fan, the network is a lost cause.

They literally do not cover baseball...like 8 minutes per hour? And even then, it's maybe a highlight per game. Unless it's the AL East, then it's 5 of those 8 minutes.

NBA gets some coverage, but the Lakers are discussed every time. Football gets plenty of coverage. Hockey barely gets any.

Scoots
04-10-2017, 08:48 PM
Yes if your team is capable of longer outlet passes and can sift through defense getting back sure, many times people extending their role to make tougher plays leads to turnovers though. I have obviously never coached on the nba level but it is a strategy I know many lower level coaches use with their studs (no matter what position) to get it into the playmakers hands as early as possible (normally for them the surrounding talent would be much worse but the lack of creators/playmakers on okc is evident IMO).

I am not saying that this strategy alone is a big boost to their team etc but it is one they have adopted to fit their team/system. Just like the benefits harden gets from his.

If it was a strategy the bigs would be running down the floor and leaving the board to Westy, but he is taking it from a big standing there and looking at the board too.

And I don't buy that Adams, Kanter, Gibson, Sabonis can't regularly make an uncontested 15 foot pass with regularity.

Jamiecballer
04-10-2017, 10:00 PM
If it was a strategy the bigs would be running down the floor and leaving the board to Westy, but he is taking it from a big standing there and looking at the board too.

And I don't buy that Adams, Kanter, Gibson, Sabonis can't regularly make an uncontested 15 foot pass with regularity.
I think it's more about getting Westbrook the ball with enough space to get a full head of steam going

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

ewing
04-11-2017, 12:18 AM
If it was a strategy the bigs would be running down the floor and leaving the board to Westy, but he is taking it from a big standing there and looking at the board too.

And I don't buy that Adams, Kanter, Gibson, Sabonis can't regularly make an uncontested 15 foot pass with regularity.

how long do you think it would take Blake Griffen to realize Sabonis was leaking down floor an letting him compete with Westy alone for the rebounds? I yell at him if took a possession. I also think you are a little used watching the one team that plays 5 guy with guard skill together on the reg. Maybe the Warriors get a quick 15 foot down floor outlet after rebounds on the reg but not everyone has the Warriors personal.

Scoots
04-11-2017, 08:42 AM
how long do you think it would take Blake Griffen to realize Sabonis was leaking down floor an letting him compete with Westy alone for the rebounds? I yell at him if took a possession. I also think you are a little used watching the one team that plays 5 guy with guard skill together on the reg. Maybe the Warriors get a quick 15 foot down floor outlet after rebounds on the reg but not everyone has the Warriors personal.

I said uncontested 15 foot passes. What I'm seeing is Thunder opponents running down court to get on defense and Westbrook and 3 teammates watching him grab the board ... not contested boards, but flat footed. If the strategy is to get the team down the floor faster then his teammates shouldn't be standing there next to him. Once it's clear they will get the ball they should be running. And since they want the ball in Westbrooks hands on offense (which nobody can argue with) the fastest way to do that is with a pass to him at the top of the key or a little higher from the big doing the blocking out (if there is even anyone there to block out).

I have no issue with Westbrook getting the boards, I just don't buy that it's anything more than Westbrook wanting to get the ball rather than some plan the coaches came up with.

My biggest issue with Westbrook as MVP if he wins he will do so as the 3rd worst shooting MVP ever, and he plays terrible terrible defense. How can an MVP candidate be dead last in the NBA in contesting shots (among qualifying players)?

mngopher35
04-11-2017, 12:28 PM
If it was a strategy the bigs would be running down the floor and leaving the board to Westy, but he is taking it from a big standing there and looking at the board too.

And I don't buy that Adams, Kanter, Gibson, Sabonis can't regularly make an uncontested 15 foot pass with regularity.

What? No I am sorry but the strategy is not to be on the fast break 100% of the time. The strategy I mentioned (at least when I have seen it used) is based on getting the ball into the key playmakers hands and then going from there, it is up to him the pace to go at basically from there (which the team wants, he is the main playmaker usually with a lack around him like OKC has). The point is that he will be the one able to dictate the tempo instead of waiting/relying on others after a team rebound. If the defense is lazy he can quickly push without waiting, if they have someone leaking you now have your best passer with it to make the long one etc.

It will definitely not be an uncontested pass all the time and especially in times when you might actually want to push (hardest to make that outlet when players are scrambling past in between the passing lanes). Sure they can grab it wait for traffic and then move it to Westbrook as the defense passes but now like I said you are not dictating the pace as much because you have to wait for that pass to be made (if teams start playing that pass it may lead to turns, Westy coming back more often slowing the pace, or a teammate taking the ball all of which I think are less desirable outcomes).

Again though this isn't to say it will be an overly drastic change deciding which way they want to play here. In the end we know they are playing this way and I have yet to see anyone showing how it is an actual hindrance to the team here outside of them just wanting to point out the system they choose benefits Westbrook (shocking. like other stars don't get the same treatment, most teams obviously plan around their 10th man). If you were to make a Harden bashing thread about how the Dantoni system (pace and great shooters), chasing fouls, and also his own jump in rebounding rate (only about half the jump of Westy but clearly padding) I think people would hate in there too, just a different group of people. Thats my point this seems to just be a "well lets bash/bring down Westy because he is getting hype" and the people who aren't fans of Westy hopped in just like they would for anyone they dislike.

Again though if you want to go in depth and explain how this is hurting the team etc. with actual evidence go for it (from what I have seen if anything it is a positive impact although minimal). Otherwise it really just sounds like you are saying "I am not so sure I fully understand or agree with their current style of play/strategy that is helping Westbrook boost his stats and this is why it's not impressive (or whatever)". Cool, you can say that about anyone especially top stars a lot of times.

FlashBolt
04-11-2017, 01:07 PM
There definitely is a strategy to RWB getting the rebound from the get-go. Coaches aren't telling Adams and others to "let RWB have the rebound so he can get a triple double." That's stupid. It has a lot to do with decision making and collapsing the defense. On a fast break, all the players are focused on RWB. Sometimes it's just better to get things settled down and then find a crack in their defense. We're probably one of the best ORB team in the NBA. There's no need for us to rush a fastbreak just because. It's incredibly draining for a player to run up and down a fastbreak every possession. Even by Westbrook standards.