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View Full Version : SMH...Lebron, still pretty much in his prime, just passed Shaq in scoring. Hey-Sues!



IKnowHoops
03-31-2017, 02:37 AM
For all you dirty, rotten haters out there. This mofo is amazing. Y'all think I'm overatting this dude. How the hell am I doing that. This fool just walked down the most dominant player I have ever seen, and he's only about 60% done with his career. Tim, Kobe, man even Shaq, all great players, but they are just not on his level. Statistically he is going to be like Wayne Gretzky and these guys won't even be in his neighborhood. The same reason why Tim and Kobe are ranked higher than Drob and Tmac (Longevity) is the same reason why Lebron will be the GOAT. He will be so good for so long with such statistical dominance, there will literally no facts to overturn the fact of his statistical dominance.

LOb0
03-31-2017, 02:45 AM
Funny thing is, I don't think Bron really wanted to be some super scoring machine. He was kinda pushed into it. I really feel he would have preferred being a system player with more ball movement and him passing more.

More-Than-Most
03-31-2017, 03:46 AM
2nd best player ever... personally id take him over Jordan if he had the talent Jordan had around him for the majority of Jordans career... LBJ shut all the haters up and he will take down all the records as well.

Saddletramp
03-31-2017, 05:38 AM
2nd best player ever... personally id take him over Jordan if he had the talent Jordan had around him for the majority of Jordans career... LBJ shut all the haters up and he will take down all the records as well.

Yeah. Not to mention, MJ never had a team like the Warriors (or the Spurs to a lesser extent) in his 6 outta 8. Early on? Sure. Detroit, LA, Boston. But Utah, NYK, Houston weren't quite the same.

ewing
03-31-2017, 06:26 AM
Funny thing is, I don't think Bron really wanted to be some super scoring machine. He was kinda pushed into it. I really feel he would have preferred being a system player with more ball movement and him passing more.

This statement contradicts itself. A system based on ball movement would have Bron touching the bell less, hence passing it less. LeBron is a totally ball dominate. he is also a great passer. In Clev he did not like being asked to play without the ball under Salis and didn't seem to like bending with the Heat either. Him a Wade did learn to move without the ball some though. Now he just takes turns dominating the ball with Kyrie. Having one guy dominate the ball while everyone else waits to see if there guy doubles and he gets you the rock is not ball movement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 09:46 AM
It's amazing. I'm glad I'm not a hater anymore after all those years of him and Wade competing and then when he also left Miami since I also left Miami and would be a hypocrite for holding that against him. This dude is easily the best player in the league still and the 2nd best ever. I'm in awe literally every time I watch him because everything is just too damn easy for him. He will go down as the greatest player we've ever seen and I honestly believe that. When him and Wade rack up a couple more rings together in the future there will be no debating it. He will also be the all time leading scorer.

TheDish87
03-31-2017, 11:01 AM
to be fair Shaq and MJ played 3 years of college and Duncan played 4 so theres that....

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 11:14 AM
A pass first player is going to be the all time scoring leader. Let that sink in.

Heediot
03-31-2017, 11:30 AM
Based of of your love affair with LeBron and the Admiral, I think you have a bias toward players with the most athleticism. Just remember Mental Toughness and IQ also factor into play. Some guys can't maximize what the ybring to the table with the weight of the pressure (see Brady vs. Peyton, Bumgarner vs. Kershaw, David Price, etc.) LeBron has gotten over the hump but guys like Jordan and Timmy were mentally strong from the start, just look at how they performed when the stakes were the highest. LeBron still has somewhat of a chance to de-throne Jordan, but I think you base your opinions more on how an ideal player should be built physically and neglect other factors which also play a role.

europagnpilgrim
03-31-2017, 12:28 PM
I am sure he is the most dominant that you have witnessed because its obvious you didn't watch that no. 13 guy from the 60's and his ridiculous dominance, check the record books for reminder

side note: Lebron and the Cavs are like 19-19 in past 38 games and are In a free fall, if teams really wanted to beat the Cavs all they have to do is let Lebron get his 40-50pts and quit doubling him and they will win, Lebron can still get 40-50pts every game but he doesn't want to because he loves the assists so if I were teams going forward I wouldn't double him and let him do what he doesn't want to do and that is score at high volume(even he has admitted this numerous times over)

this isn't 2003-07 version no more and I don't see why opposing teams haven't figured this basic strategy out yet, stay on the shooters and let Lebron get his points

tredigs
03-31-2017, 12:52 PM
A pass first player is going to be the all time scoring leader. Let that sink in.

Can you name another "Pass 1st" player who averaged 20 shots a night for 14 years straight? He's a heavily ball dominant player who will look to shoot or pass depending on what the D gives him. He's not Jason Kidd. And he in fact has already taken more shots in his first 14 years than Shaq did in his career. Granted, it was right around LBJ's current age that Shaq was getting too fat and out of shape for his own good and started taking the back seat offensively.

As far as OP's longevity comment being the reason why LBJ will be GOAT over MJ... see: KAJ versus Michael Jordan. And LBJ still needs 6+ seasons at 20+ PPG to reach KAJ's point total. But so long as he's still taking 18+ shots a night for the next couple years, and if he never gets injured, he's got a shot.

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 12:59 PM
Can you name another "Pass 1st" player who averaged 20 shots a night for 14 years straight? He's a heavily ball dominant player who will look to shoot or pass depending on what the D gives him. He's not Jason Kidd. And he in fact has already taken more shots in his first 14 years than Shaq did in his career. Granted, it was right around LBJ's current age that Shaq was getting too fat and out of shape for his own good and started taking the back seat offensively.

As far as OP's longevity comment being the reason why LBJ will be GOAT over MJ... see: KAJ versus Michael Jordan. And LBJ still needs 6+ seasons at 20+ PPG to reach KAJ's point total. But so long as he's still taking 18+ shots a night for the next couple years, and if he never gets injured, he's got a shot.

He gets his shot sure but, he's always looking to make a play first and foremost. He's arguably the best playmaker in the league and he's a SF. He makes plays that just blow your mind. I have no doubt he passes the all time scoring record. The only thing that can stop him is injury.

Vinylman
03-31-2017, 12:59 PM
Can you name another "Pass 1st" player who averaged 20 shots a night for 14 years straight? He's a heavily ball dominant player who will look to shoot or pass depending on what the D gives him. He's not Jason Kidd. And he in fact has already taken more shots in his first 14 years than Shaq did in his career. Granted, it was right around LBJ's current age that Shaq was getting too fat and out of shape for his own good and started taking the back seat offensively.

As far as OP's longevity comment being the reason why LBJ will be GOAT over MJ... see: KAJ versus Michael Jordan. And LBJ still needs 6+ seasons at 20+ PPG to reach KAJ's point total. But so long as he's still taking 18+ shots a night for the next couple years, and if he never gets injured, he's got a shot.

and KAJ entered the league 4 years older than Lebron...

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 01:03 PM
and KAJ entered the league 4 years older than Lebron...

But it's completely different styles. KAJ was only asked to score on offense. LeBron is asked to score while also initiating the offense and playmaking. If LeBron had a **** it I want to average near 40 PPG he could've done that for probably 10 seasons. Hell he could

YAALREADYKNO
03-31-2017, 01:04 PM
Dude is a great great player but what I wanna know is, Is his neck ok from when david lee gave him a Ron Artest to James harden type elbow?

Vinylman
03-31-2017, 01:19 PM
But it's completely different styles. KAJ was only asked to score on offense. LeBron is asked to score while also initiating the offense and playmaking. If LeBron had a **** it I want to average near 40 PPG he could've done that for probably 10 seasons. Hell he could

dude... they score what they score... you act like the Lakes needed KAJ to be a primary scorer... he wasn't... the Lakers had a ton of offensive options...

And why would you ignore the ages when entering the league? That is the OP's whole point ... LBJ is doing this in his prime ... blah blah blah

when you don't WASTE 4 years in college which you were REQUIRED to do back then who would have got to 28k faster?

Anyway... Lebron is a great player... no need for the site to suck him off thread after thread (not saying you are).

pacofunk64
03-31-2017, 01:33 PM
LeBron will go down as the 2nd best player of all time. There is nothing he can do that will surpass Jordan. It's not because his stats won't say he is the best its just because Jordan was first. The Jordan name is legend. What he did for the game and the marketing of basketball is unheralded.

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 01:35 PM
dude... they score what they score... you act like the Lakes needed KAJ to be a primary scorer... he wasn't... the Lakers had a ton of offensive options...

And why would you ignore the ages when entering the league? That is the OP's whole point ... LBJ is doing this in his prime ... blah blah blah

when you don't WASTE 4 years in college which you were REQUIRED to do back then who would have got to 28k faster?

Anyway... Lebron is a great player... no need for the site to suck him off thread after thread (not saying you are).

I'm just saying that LeBron being forced to initiate the offense every night pretty much cancels out KAJ going to college because KAJs main focus was scoring. He had Magic and Oscar to initiate the offense. If LeBron only had to focus on scoring he's probably a lot closer to 1st than he is now.

ewing
03-31-2017, 01:45 PM
If LeBron wanted to he'd hit a triple axel every time and be the best figure skater in the world. If LeBron wanted to he could bowl 300 every game

TheDish87
03-31-2017, 01:48 PM
Can you name another "Pass 1st" player who averaged 20 shots a night for 14 years straight? He's a heavily ball dominant player who will look to shoot or pass depending on what the D gives him. He's not Jason Kidd. And he in fact has already taken more shots in his first 14 years than Shaq did in his career. Granted, it was right around LBJ's current age that Shaq was getting too fat and out of shape for his own good and started taking the back seat offensively.

As far as OP's longevity comment being the reason why LBJ will be GOAT over MJ... see: KAJ versus Michael Jordan. And LBJ still needs 6+ seasons at 20+ PPG to reach KAJ's point total. But so long as he's still taking 18+ shots a night for the next couple years, and if he never gets injured, he's got a shot.

pass first? dude was top 5 in attempts in the league for like the last 10 years lol

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 02:01 PM
If LeBron wanted to he'd hit a triple axel every time and be the best figure skater in the world. If LeBron wanted to he could bowl 300 every game

He would.

Mr_Jones
03-31-2017, 02:14 PM
For all you dirty, rotten haters out there. This mofo is amazing. Y'all think I'm overatting this dude. How the hell am I doing that. This fool just walked down the most dominant player I have ever seen, and he's only about 60% done with his career. Tim, Kobe, man even Shaq, all great players, but they are just not on his level. Statistically he is going to be like Wayne Gretzky and these guys won't even be in his neighborhood. The same reason why Tim and Kobe are ranked higher than Drob and Tmac (Longevity) is the same reason why Lebron will be the GOAT. He will be so good for so long with such statistical dominance, there will literally no facts to overturn the fact of his statistical dominance.

"IKnowHoops"... more like "ImAHomo"

Bartlee23
03-31-2017, 02:29 PM
dude... they score what they score... you act like the Lakes needed KAJ to be a primary scorer... he wasn't... the Lakers had a ton of offensive options...

And why would you ignore the ages when entering the league? That is the OP's whole point ... LBJ is doing this in his prime ... blah blah blah

when you don't WASTE 4 years in college which you were REQUIRED to do back then who would have got to 28k faster?

Anyway... Lebron is a great player... no need for the site to suck him off thread after thread (not saying you are).

I agree.. Lebron is without a doubt one of the greatest of all time... my issue with all the threads posting " how great he is" and "he's the GOAT" is because most people never saw Wilt play, most people never saw Russell play, hell most people on here never saw Kareem play. Possibly even Magic and Bird because my guess is the average poster age is between 25-30 years old.

What if Jordan never went to college and straight into the NBA? What if he never " retired " ?? 8 for 8 in championships ?? Career numbers much higher than what they already are?? There is also so much talk about how " Jordan had the most stacked teams " ??? Not at the beginning of his career... first three championships Jordan, Pippen and Grant. Lebron had Wade and Bosh and couldn't do what they did. After that is was Jordan, Pippen, an aged Rodman and Kukoc.

Michael Jordan

Strongest Supporting Cast: 1995-96, 51.6 Win Shares (72-10 season)

Weakest Supporting Cast: 1986-87, 23.10 Win Shares

Average Supporting Cast: 37.7 Win Shares

Median Supporting Cast: 39.8 Win Shares


Lebron James

Strongest Supporting Cast: 2012-13, 46.7 Win Shares

Weakest Supporting Cast: 2004-05, 27.7 Win Shares

Average Supporting Cast: 38.6 Win Shares

Median Supporting Cast: 42.4 Win Shares

The facts are people like to think Jordan played on all " stacked " teams which is quite the opposite. He has earned his title at the top and Lebron cannot and will not ever reach it. As far as Wilt, Russell and KAJ go since most didn't see them play I would put Lebron in the " best player of his era " category. IMO I have at least 5-7 players I'm ranking ahead of Lebron but that's MY opinion. Lebron amazes me but I could never rank him as the GOAT.

Rivera
03-31-2017, 02:31 PM
great, another thread to suck off bron and if we dont bow down to the king where a hater

we get it, hes an all time great!

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 02:53 PM
great, another thread to suck off bron and if we dont bow down to the king where a hater

we get it, hes an all time great!

You better bow down!!!!

europagnpilgrim
03-31-2017, 03:43 PM
I agree.. Lebron is without a doubt one of the greatest of all time... my issue with all the threads posting " how great he is" and "he's the GOAT" is because most people never saw Wilt play, most people never saw Russell play, hell most people on here never saw Kareem play. Possibly even Magic and Bird because my guess is the average poster age is between 25-30 years old.

What if Jordan never went to college and straight into the NBA? What if he never " retired " ?? 8 for 8 in championships ?? Career numbers much higher than what they already are?? There is also so much talk about how " Jordan had the most stacked teams " ??? Not at the beginning of his career... first three championships Jordan, Pippen and Grant. Lebron had Wade and Bosh and couldn't do what they did. After that is was Jordan, Pippen, an aged Rodman and Kukoc.

Michael Jordan

Strongest Supporting Cast: 1995-96, 51.6 Win Shares (72-10 season)

Weakest Supporting Cast: 1986-87, 23.10 Win Shares

Average Supporting Cast: 37.7 Win Shares

Median Supporting Cast: 39.8 Win Shares


Lebron James

Strongest Supporting Cast: 2012-13, 46.7 Win Shares

Weakest Supporting Cast: 2004-05, 27.7 Win Shares

Average Supporting Cast: 38.6 Win Shares

Median Supporting Cast: 42.4 Win Shares

The facts are people like to think Jordan played on all " stacked " teams which is quite the opposite. He has earned his title at the top and Lebron cannot and will not ever reach it. As far as Wilt, Russell and KAJ go since most didn't see them play I would put Lebron in the " best player of his era " category. IMO I have at least 5-7 players I'm ranking ahead of Lebron but that's MY opinion. Lebron amazes me but I could never rank him as the GOAT.

to add on to what you already stated because most forget is that Jordan and Pippen were aged as well, Jordan was like 35 his last title, that's pretty old to win a title as the alpha dog, most don't do it and I don't know if it has been done to be quite sure, they were a aged bunch that 2nd three peat, it wasn't prime/young 'come fly with me' Jordan, it was 'fadeaway' Jordan who could still fly somewhat but he had to pick and choose those moments more carefully

Once Lebron starts putting up 50+pts/30+boards/20+blocks/10+assists and steals in games(Wilt did for years) for yrs then he will be in discussion for most dominant ever and we all know at this stage of career it isn't happening, if Lebron would have put up numbers like he did against Boston facing elimination with like 45pts/18boards(and more) and did it for his first 5-8yrs then he would be on par with Wilt in my bball book, but he still is one of the best players to hit the hardwood but people talking top 2 need to quite disrespecting Wilt and others because they never saw those guys play, that shows ignorance at its highest level right there

Jamiecballer
03-31-2017, 03:51 PM
A pass first player is going to be the all time scoring leader. Let that sink in.

it speaks to just how amazing he is that's for sure.

burtgummer
03-31-2017, 04:45 PM
As a different poster mentioned its a shame you kids don't have a clue
You weren't born yet when basketball was fun to watch now its nothing but a bunch of tall millionaires in short pants

Rivera
03-31-2017, 05:12 PM
You better bow down!!!!

:worthy:

WaDe03
03-31-2017, 07:04 PM
:worthy:

:clap:

Jeffy25
03-31-2017, 07:30 PM
It's completely realistic, that he retires the NBA's all time leading scorer.


If he declines 10% per year in total scoring the rest of his career and continue to be a full time player for another three years, then part time after. He'll pass Kareem at age 40.

Of he can play full time another 5 years, and surpass him at 38.

I honestly think it depends how long he wants to play, and how long he cares about the regular season. He may start playing part time during the regular season and play full time in the post-season here in a few years in an attempt to accumulate as many rings as possible.


He very well could be the playoff all-time leading scorer by the end of this summer.

Jeffy25
03-31-2017, 07:33 PM
to be fair Shaq and MJ played 3 years of college and Duncan played 4 so theres that....

Sure, but Shaq also played to 38, covered 19 seasons.

Bron is in his age 32 season, finishing his 14th season.

Jordan played 15 seasons.

tredigs
03-31-2017, 08:59 PM
Sure, but Shaq also played to 38, covered 19 seasons.

Bron is in his age 32 season, finishing his 14th season.

Jordan played 15 seasons.

Two of Jordan's seasons were heavily cut short (injured sophomore year where he played a limited 10 games or so and the year he came back from baseball before the playoffs and played 15 or 20 games). Including the first Wizards year where he played 60 games, it's more like 13 seasons. He lead the NBA in PPG every full season he played on the Bulls other than his rookie year (where he averaged 28/7/6 on >50% FG).

More-Than-Most
03-31-2017, 09:12 PM
Two of Jordan's seasons were heavily cut short (injured sophomore year where he played a limited 10 games or so and the year he came back from baseball before the playoffs and played 15 or 20 games). Including the first Wizards year where he played 60 games, it's more like 13 seasons. He lead the NBA in PPG every full season he played on the Bulls other than his rookie year (where he averaged 28/7/6 on >50% FG).

Jordan also shot between 22 times and 25 times per game during the duration of his career... Lebron 19.6 to MJ 23 SPG... 3 less PPG on 3 less shot attempts.

basch152
03-31-2017, 09:28 PM
Two of Jordan's seasons were heavily cut short (injured sophomore year where he played a limited 10 games or so and the year he came back from baseball before the playoffs and played 15 or 20 games). Including the first Wizards year where he played 60 games, it's more like 13 seasons. He lead the NBA in PPG every full season he played on the Bulls other than his rookie year (where he averaged 28/7/6 on >50% FG).

Jordans numbers his first two seasons were absolutely ridoculous nobody will ever be able to compare to that.

More-Than-Most
03-31-2017, 09:39 PM
Jordans numbers his first two seasons were absolutely ridoculous nobody will ever be able to compare to that.

Wilt avg like 50/25 on 50 percent shooting and some say he would have had a ton of Quad doubles if the stats were around :shrug:

Forget that year because that year he took 39 shots... but he avg 24/24/9 one year on 60 percent shooting taking 14 shots a game lol

ewing
03-31-2017, 09:50 PM
Jordan also shot between 22 times and 25 times per game during the duration of his career... Lebron 19.6 to MJ 23 SPG... 3 less PPG on 3 less shot attempts.

MJ was also better at scoring

More-Than-Most
03-31-2017, 10:04 PM
MJ was also better at scoring

what do you base this on? Lebron like I said averages 3 less PPG but 3 less shots taken on top of being a better shooter pct wise for his career while having more assists... Lebron is putting up more total points for his team on a more efficient level by the numbers... The only thing Jordan has per the numbers would be free throw shooting. Lebron is also by the numbers a better 3 point shooter... Like I said if not for the 6-0 finals record there isnt much Jordan has on lebron.

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 12:22 AM
what do you base this on? Lebron like I said averages 3 less PPG but 3 less shots taken on top of being a better shooter pct wise for his career while having more assists... Lebron is putting up more total points for his team on a more efficient level by the numbers... The only thing Jordan has per the numbers would be free throw shooting. Lebron is also by the numbers a better 3 point shooter... Like I said if not for the 6-0 finals record there isnt much Jordan has on lebron.


Besides the 6 championships he also has 6 finals MVP'S... something Lebron will never achieve.

1. Defensive player of the year

2. Billion dollar brand name

3. A college education

4. Acceptance that he was going bald.

These are a few things Lebron will never achieve.

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 12:29 AM
Jordans numbers his first two seasons were absolutely ridoculous nobody will ever be able to compare to that.

Rookie year - 37.6ppg/27rpg/20bpg
Sophomore season - 38.4ppg/27rpg/20bpg

add between 7-10spg and those first two seasons destroy Jordan and any other player for that matter in any era

first 6 seasons = 41.5ppg/25rpg/15-20bpg

#13 says Hello

More-Than-Most
04-01-2017, 12:35 AM
[/B]

Besides the 6 championships he also has 6 finals MVP'S... something Lebron will never achieve.

1. Defensive player of the year

2. Billion dollar brand name

3. A college education

4. Acceptance that he was going bald.

These are a few things Lebron will never achieve.

lebron is the better defender and always has been... no doubt lebron choked and jordan never did but that shouldnt be enough when lebron will likely go down as the better defender and better everything else outside of the finals and championships... but we pick and choose **** and nothing else matters. 6 championships means jordan is better than lebron but there is a guy with like 11 who nobody gives a crap about... again jordan couldnt do **** until he got pippen and his insanely stacked teams... no team lebron ever leaves will ever win 50 plus games... how about MJ?

WaDe03
04-01-2017, 01:53 AM
LeBron signed a billion dollar deal with Nike.

JAZZNC
04-01-2017, 02:03 AM
lebron is the better defender and always has been... no doubt lebron choked and jordan never did but that shouldnt be enough when lebron will likely go down as the better defender and better everything else outside of the finals and championships... but we pick and choose **** and nothing else matters. 6 championships means jordan is better than lebron but there is a guy with like 11 who nobody gives a crap about... again jordan couldnt do **** until he got pippen and his insanely stacked teams... no team lebron ever leaves will ever win 50 plus games... how about MJ?

For some reason nobody ever wants to admit how insanely stacked Jordan's teams were. I mean when they played the Jazz in the Finals the Bulls 6th man would have been the Jazz's 3rd best player. Ron Harper was a ****ing 20ppg player before the Bulls, they had arguably the best two defenders of all time in addition to Jordan...but yeah, 6 titles. There are legitimate arguments for LeBron being the best ever when he retires.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:17 AM
Based of of your love affair with LeBron and the Admiral, I think you have a bias toward players with the most athleticism. Just remember Mental Toughness and IQ also factor into play. Some guys can't maximize what the ybring to the table with the weight of the pressure (see Brady vs. Peyton, Bumgarner vs. Kershaw, David Price, etc.) LeBron has gotten over the hump but guys like Jordan and Timmy were mentally strong from the start, just look at how they performed when the stakes were the highest. LeBron still has somewhat of a chance to de-throne Jordan, but I think you base your opinions more on how an ideal player should be built physically and neglect other factors which also play a role.

Hell naw to all of this.

Dude , I like him because he is amazing.

Passing Shaq on the all time scoring list with still 40% of your career left was impossible until Bron just did it.

He is impossible. That it. And that is a fact. Love affair or not. I would not of guessed he would pass Shaq in scoring with so much more left. That is crazy.

This is based off facts, not love.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:24 AM
dude... they score what they score... you act like the Lakes needed KAJ to be a primary scorer... he wasn't... the Lakers had a ton of offensive options...

And why would you ignore the ages when entering the league? That is the OP's whole point ... LBJ is doing this in his prime ... blah blah blah

when you don't WASTE 4 years in college which you were REQUIRED to do back then who would have got to 28k faster?

Anyway... Lebron is a great player... no need for the site to suck him off thread after thread (not saying you are).

So what's Kobe's excuse then. "the greatest scorer ever" and he isn't on Lebron's level. Dudes can't come into the league at 18 and beast like Bron did. The fact he was able to come in at 18 and be the best player on an NBA team, then then next season as a 19 year old be a top 8 player in the NBA.

Yeah I guess anyone who gets to skip college can do this huh? Yes you are hating. What he has done couldn't of been done and hasn't been done by anyone. So I am sucking him off? Man I bet if he flew and saved a plane from falling out of the sky, you'd be like, "anyone who can fly and has super powers can do that, what's the big deal" SMH

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:26 AM
If LeBron wanted to he'd hit a triple axel every time and be the best figure skater in the world. If LeBron wanted to he could bowl 300 every game

This is about facts, not your BS cry baby I hate bron tantrum. You're so sorry.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:30 AM
"IKnowHoops"... more like "ImAHomo"

That was deep...especially from a guy who's tag line is "Grabbin Balls and Wieners" Do you player. You don't gotta hate on your community though.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:33 AM
I agree.. Lebron is without a doubt one of the greatest of all time... my issue with all the threads posting " how great he is" and "he's the GOAT" is because most people never saw Wilt play, most people never saw Russell play, hell most people on here never saw Kareem play. Possibly even Magic and Bird because my guess is the average poster age is between 25-30 years old.

What if Jordan never went to college and straight into the NBA? What if he never " retired " ?? 8 for 8 in championships ?? Career numbers much higher than what they already are?? There is also so much talk about how " Jordan had the most stacked teams " ??? Not at the beginning of his career... first three championships Jordan, Pippen and Grant. Lebron had Wade and Bosh and couldn't do what they did. After that is was Jordan, Pippen, an aged Rodman and Kukoc.

Michael Jordan

Strongest Supporting Cast: 1995-96, 51.6 Win Shares (72-10 season)

Weakest Supporting Cast: 1986-87, 23.10 Win Shares

Average Supporting Cast: 37.7 Win Shares

Median Supporting Cast: 39.8 Win Shares


Lebron James

Strongest Supporting Cast: 2012-13, 46.7 Win Shares

Weakest Supporting Cast: 2004-05, 27.7 Win Shares

Average Supporting Cast: 38.6 Win Shares

Median Supporting Cast: 42.4 Win Shares

The facts are people like to think Jordan played on all " stacked " teams which is quite the opposite. He has earned his title at the top and Lebron cannot and will not ever reach it. As far as Wilt, Russell and KAJ go since most didn't see them play I would put Lebron in the " best player of his era " category. IMO I have at least 5-7 players I'm ranking ahead of Lebron but that's MY opinion. Lebron amazes me but I could never rank him as the GOAT.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Only Sith deal in absolutes.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:36 AM
great, another thread to suck off bron and if we dont bow down to the king where a hater

we get it, hes an all time great!

Naw your a hater if you enter into a thread you don't like and start spewing how you dont like the thread. That is the def of a hater. You don't have to bow down. I hope you dont bow down. But talking ish in a thread, that you are not interested in, with no substance is hating brush. Sorry.

Just keep your hating --- out the thread, then you won't be a hater ya hater.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:39 AM
to add on to what you already stated because most forget is that Jordan and Pippen were aged as well, Jordan was like 35 his last title, that's pretty old to win a title as the alpha dog, most don't do it and I don't know if it has been done to be quite sure, they were a aged bunch that 2nd three peat, it wasn't prime/young 'come fly with me' Jordan, it was 'fadeaway' Jordan who could still fly somewhat but he had to pick and choose those moments more carefully

Once Lebron starts putting up 50+pts/30+boards/20+blocks/10+assists and steals in games(Wilt did for years) for yrs then he will be in discussion for most dominant ever and we all know at this stage of career it isn't happening, if Lebron would have put up numbers like he did against Boston facing elimination with like 45pts/18boards(and more) and did it for his first 5-8yrs then he would be on par with Wilt in my bball book, but he still is one of the best players to hit the hardwood but people talking top 2 need to quite disrespecting Wilt and others because they never saw those guys play, that shows ignorance at its highest level right there

Well just remember, he beat a pair triplet of 35 year old alpha dogs in Malone, Stockton and Horny so is it really that impressive. He was going against his own age group.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:43 AM
[/B]

Besides the 6 championships he also has 6 finals MVP'S... something Lebron will never achieve.

1. Defensive player of the year

2. Billion dollar brand name

3. A college education

4. Acceptance that he was going bald.

These are a few things Lebron will never achieve.




Good one. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 02:45 AM
Rookie year - 37.6ppg/27rpg/20bpg
Sophomore season - 38.4ppg/27rpg/20bpg

add between 7-10spg and those first two seasons destroy Jordan and any other player for that matter in any era

first 6 seasons = 41.5ppg/25rpg/15-20bpg

#13 says Hello

#competitionwasabsolutes---incomparison says hello.

What top 20 player wouldn't absolute the annihilate the 60's? LMAO. I'm sure Charles Barkley and Karl Malone would average 50 a game in the f-in 60's

basch152
04-01-2017, 02:50 AM
Rookie year - 37.6ppg/27rpg/20bpg
Sophomore season - 38.4ppg/27rpg/20bpg

add between 7-10spg and those first two seasons destroy Jordan and any other player for that matter in any era

first 6 seasons = 41.5ppg/25rpg/15-20bpg

#13 says Hello

Yeah and his competition was a ****ing joke compared to competition jordan played against.

Not even remotely close to as impressive.

More-Than-Most
04-01-2017, 03:26 AM
Yeah and his competition was a ****ing joke compared to competition jordan played against.

Not even remotely close to as impressive.

really? the thunder team with Durant/Harden/Westy Etc Etc in the finals? The spurs with all their talent? The ****ing record breaking warriors down 3-1 with 2 of the final 3 games on the Road at the most home friendly enviroment in basketball lately? Or how about keeping the cavs in it with next to nothing against that insane uber stacked warriors team when kyrie and love went down??????????? Id say his finals teams outside of the mavs were pretty ****ing great while not having an all star team around him from top to bottom like Jordan had... Pipper/Kukoc/Harper/Kerr/Rodman and it doesnt end there. Like I said when did a lebron team ever win 50 games without him? hell what is the cavs record without lebron?

On top of this the Raptors last year were good.. The celtics/Raptors/Wizards this year.... The celtics when lebron first joined the heat... He has had plenty of competition... Like I said its easy to go the route of the east is weak but never factor in if lebron played on one of the west top teams he would have help similar to what jordan had in all 6 of his finals.

basch152
04-01-2017, 03:50 AM
really? the thunder team with Durant/Harden/Westy Etc Etc in the finals? The spurs with all their talent? The ****ing record breaking warriors down 3-1 with 2 of the final 3 games on the Road at the most home friendly enviroment in basketball lately? Or how about keeping the cavs in it with next to nothing against that insane uber stacked warriors team when kyrie and love went down??????????? Id say his finals teams outside of the mavs were pretty ****ing great while not having an all star team around him from top to bottom like Jordan had... Pipper/Kukoc/Harper/Kerr/Rodman and it doesnt end there. Like I said when did a lebron team ever win 50 games without him? hell what is the cavs record without lebron?

On top of this the Raptors last year were good.. The celtics/Raptors/Wizards this year.... The celtics when lebron first joined the heat... He has had plenty of competition... Like I said its easy to go the route of the east is weak but never factor in if lebron played on one of the west top teams he would have help similar to what jordan had in all 6 of his finals.

What in the flying **** are you talking about?

Reread that and actually realise who is being talked about there.

JAZZNC
04-01-2017, 03:52 AM
What in the flying **** are you talking about?

Reread that and actually realise who is being talked about there.

Hahaha!

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 07:51 AM
lebron is the better defender and always has been... no doubt lebron choked and jordan never did but that shouldnt be enough when lebron will likely go down as the better defender and better everything else outside of the finals and championships... but we pick and choose **** and nothing else matters. 6 championships means jordan is better than lebron but there is a guy with like 11 who nobody gives a crap about... again jordan couldnt do **** until he got pippen and his insanely stacked teams... no team lebron ever leaves will ever win 50 plus games... how about MJ?

Go back and read my post. Jordan's teams by facts were NOT "stacked" First championship had Jordan, Pippen and Grant... the rest of the team was not that great.Lebron's teams over his career were actually better. Jordan had some rough years with bad teams as well.

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 07:54 AM
LeBron signed a billion dollar deal with Nike.

If you think Lebron's contract / brand is even close to what Jordan's is then I don't know what to say. If Nike had to drop one tomorrow, who do you think it would be?

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 07:58 AM
For some reason nobody ever wants to admit how insanely stacked Jordan's teams were. I mean when they played the Jazz in the Finals the Bulls 6th man would have been the Jazz's 3rd best player. Ron Harper was a ****ing 20ppg player before the Bulls, they had arguably the best two defenders of all time in addition to Jordan...but yeah, 6 titles. There are legitimate arguments for LeBron being the best ever when he retires.

I already provided facts in a former post that Jordan's teams were not "stacked." This is the usual conclusion that people come up with that are either very young, didn't witness the games or not very educated.

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 08:01 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Only Sith deal in absolutes.

Not "absolute".... realism.

Rivera
04-01-2017, 10:19 AM
Naw your a hater if you enter into a thread you don't like and start spewing how you dont like the thread. That is the def of a hater. You don't have to bow down. I hope you dont bow down. But talking ish in a thread, that you are not interested in, with no substance is hating brush. Sorry.

Just keep your hating --- out the thread, then you won't be a hater ya hater.

im a hater hahaha i never say anything bad about lebron other than the diva aspect of his game no one has ever denied his greatness and I see a general consesus that hes already a top 5 palyer of all time

but i never seen a player so protected by his fans that go out of their way to validate his career his nauseating, its like his fans have napoleon complex! BOW DOWN TO GREATNESS!

Heediot
04-01-2017, 10:48 AM
In Jordan's last 3 peat. He was 32 and on the decline, but his game aged really well. Rodman was like mid 30's. Harper was past his prime and just a role player glue guy. Guys like Kukoc and Longley didn't look as good outside of Chicago's system. Pippen was the only guy in his true prime, and Kukoc the sixth man. LeBron for the his current streak/run to the finals has been playing with guys ripe in their prime, except maybe Wade in his last year in Miami.

Jordan's first 3 peat he was at his peak and in his prime and his cast were more in their primes like Pippen and Horace Grant. Cartwright was a Geezer, and BJ Armstrong is a role player/spot shooter and an example of another guy that played better with MJ and Phil.

Jordan like LeBron elevates the play of his role players. To say one MJ had a better cast vs. LeBron is unfair when you look at how those role players did playing outside of Chicago. Ron Harper was a above average sg before Jordan, but by the time he came to the bulls he wasn't the same. Harper was averaging less then 10 PPG in a roughly 60 games in his first season with the bulls before Jordan un-retired for the remainder of 94-95. The attention Jordan drew on offense was comparable was unreal. He had the iq to make the right play and give his mates good looks, just as LeBron does. He may not have the same assists totals as LeBron but his role was more of a scorer.

The key thing in all this to me is the system built around Jordan iin Chicago was more efficient then the systems built around LeBron anywhere he played. I don't think Jordan had better support, I just think him as the catalyst and main cog elevated his team higher then LeBron has proven thus far. It's still early and they have the same amount of rings as the same age roughly, so LeBron still has time to catch up or surpass. Personally I don't think his game ages as well as Jordan's and he won't have the same amount of rings so we'll see.

Teeboy1487
04-01-2017, 11:08 AM
What a huge accomplisment. Lebron no doubt will be a top 3 player of all time. However, I will always have a hard time putting him over Wilt and Jordan.

ewing
04-01-2017, 11:55 AM
For some reason nobody ever wants to admit how insanely stacked Jordan's teams were. I mean when they played the Jazz in the Finals the Bulls 6th man would have been the Jazz's 3rd best player. Ron Harper was a ****ing 20ppg player before the Bulls, they had arguably the best two defenders of all time in addition to Jordan...but yeah, 6 titles. There are legitimate arguments for LeBron being the best ever when he retires.

You guys are so bias no one ever thought Ron Harper was a better player then Jeff. Not even close. Pip was a one time all star the first time they won. The bulls were better then everyone else bc of micheal. Your Jazz had two guys better then Pip and the next best player after him.


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WaDe03
04-01-2017, 12:08 PM
If you think Lebron's contract / brand is even close to what Jordan's is then I don't know what to say. If Nike had to drop one tomorrow, who do you think it would be?

I'm not comparing the brands. You said Jordan has a billion dollar brand and LeBron never will but, LeBron already does lol.

flea
04-01-2017, 12:36 PM
im a hater hahaha i never say anything bad about lebron other than the diva aspect of his game no one has ever denied his greatness and I see a general consesus that hes already a top 5 palyer of all time

but i never seen a player so protected by his fans that go out of their way to validate his career his nauseating, its like his fans have napoleon complex! BOW DOWN TO GREATNESS!

They know that he's not as good as they want him to be because if he was then he would have proven it. Kobe fans were the exact same 5 years ago. IKnowHoops is just ridiculously over the top. He reminds me of those Laker posters that would write the most homoerotic **** about Kobe's athleticism, strides, etc. To people who like basketball and hate the starstruck nature of the NBA it truly is nauseating.

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 02:02 PM
I'm not comparing the brands. You said Jordan has a billion dollar brand and LeBron never will but, LeBron already does lol.

Sorry for the typo... meant "zillion dollar" contact... lol. The point was another thing Jordan has that Lebron will NEVER pass him in.

WaDe03
04-01-2017, 02:07 PM
I'm tired of people acting like they don't need to worship the ground LeBron walks on and admit he does no wrong.

WaDe03
04-01-2017, 02:08 PM
Sorry for the typo... meant "zillion dollar" contact... lol. The point was another thing Jordan has that Lebron will NEVER pass him in.

lol yea his brand may not pass him but you never know. LeBrons probably got 8 years left. Anything can happen we saw that last finals.

valade16
04-01-2017, 02:14 PM
what do you base this on? Lebron like I said averages 3 less PPG but 3 less shots taken on top of being a better shooter pct wise for his career while having more assists... Lebron is putting up more total points for his team on a more efficient level by the numbers... The only thing Jordan has per the numbers would be free throw shooting. Lebron is also by the numbers a better 3 point shooter... Like I said if not for the 6-0 finals record there isnt much Jordan has on lebron.

Well you are including Jordan's time in Washington at 39 after coming out of retirement... not exactly a fair comparison.

MJ's stats with the Bulls compared to LeBron are:

31.5 PPG on 23.3 Shots

LeBron is:

27.1 PPG on 19.6 Shots

But going deeper here are their TS%'s with MJ on the Bulls:

LeBron .584
Jordan .580

Here are their top PPG per 100 possession seasons:

Jordan 46.4
Jordan 43.6
Jordan 43.5
Jordan 43.0
Jordan 42.7
Jordan 42.7
Jordan 42.5
Jordan 41.8
LeBron 40.8
LeBron 40.0
Jordan 40.0
Jordan 40.0

Here are their top seasons by TS%:

LeBron .649
LeBron .640
LeBron .617
Jordan .614
Jordan .606
Jordan .605
LeBron .605
LeBron .604
Jordan .603

LeBron has 2 TS% seasons clearly better but otherwise it's fairly even, MJ has many seasons at incredibly high efficiency.

In short, MJ is the better scorer because he has a consistently higher volume on slightly worse efficiency while on the Bulls. Yeah, his time with the Wizards obviously brings his numbers down, but if that's the only leg you have to stand on to make LeBron look as good as MJ scoring-wise, it's a pretty weak argument.

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 02:55 PM
Well just remember, he beat a pair triplet of 35 year old alpha dogs in Malone, Stockton and Horny so is it really that impressive. He was going against his own age group.

So even if Jordan wouldn't have faced the Jazz then it would have been a old superstar led squad out of Houston since Seattle couldn't break through and they were young compared to Jazz/Rockets, so blame the younger teams for failing to beat those old tested veteran teams

no doubt the older/vet led squads were getting to the Finals but Lebron left a getting old Wade to go team up with the younger Irving/Love/Thompson guns so he didn't have to have that up hill battle, then with the Bosh blood clot it would have really been over because he wasn't dragging that team to no Finals by himself at that stage of his career, this isn't 07' version no more but he still is effective with the right all star pieces, 07' and back all he needed was a fringe all star in Mo Will to pretty much get there, unless he faced Orlando/Celtics then its another story

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 03:19 PM
#competitionwasabsolutes---incomparison says hello.

What top 20 player wouldn't absolute the annihilate the 60's? LMAO. I'm sure Charles Barkley and Karl Malone would average 50 a game in the f-in 60's


Barkley and Malone didn't even avg 35ppg when they played and were primarily the best PF's in the game until Duncan/KG came

Jordan has the highest avg of 37ppg during his time and his competition out East was Ehlo and Starks and Dumars, how come he didn't avg 50ppg? he only had to face Drexler/Richmond 2x a year and they were the best SG's after Jordan in the entire league

you keep disrespecting the 60's when the nba is trying to go back and play like the 60's pace wise, you keep acting like todays game isn't watered down because you see more teams and players, that's what excuse makers like to call it, I like to deal with results(what actually happened)

Lebron has had Melo/KD/George his biggest rivals and now add in Leonard, how many rings outside of Leonard does his biggest rivals have? Lebron should dominate big time no big deal there and he only sees those guys out West 2x a year and now Melo more since he went out East, big deal and he should put up 50ppg since he is that dominant right?

when Lebron had to do it all across the board he always pretty much lost(Orlando/Celtics/Spurs 07'/Warriors 15') and he didn't put up 50ppg, Pierce was his early nemesis that he couldn't beat so he went and formed a dynamic trio with Heat to tip the scales now imagine if young Wilt had teamed up with a young Baylor and West in LA, Wilt would have 6-9 rings easily, J West Finals record wouldn't be 1-9 and that's for damn sure, probably more like 9-1, 6-4 at worst

I recall when Lebron put up 38/8/8 against Magic in that 09' series that was unreal right? Wilt avg that his rookie year with 17 more boards per game

there was no competition for Wilt because he was that dominant, Bellamy was avg 30ppg and Wilt told him he wont get a shot off in the 1st half and blocked all his attempts, then told him he could start playing in the 2nd half, total domination

if Malone or Barkley would get 50pts in a game it would be a celebration while Wilt could get that in his sleep in any era any game at anytime he wanted

players/peers were asked how much could Wilt avg during the last set of dominant bigs in the 90's and they said 70ppg, Frazier said 75ppg, in the 90's not the 60's, and he was putting up 70ppg on a ten game stretch right before the 100pt game so it doesn't seem far fetched that if he wanted to he could avg that, If it was all about scoring he would have blew the all time points total out of the water, his words not mine

Commentators use to say Wilt just wanted to score his 50pts each game and be left alone, Commentators use to say when he was old and playing for Lakers that if you pissed off a young Wilt he could go for 60-100pts easily, anytime he wanted, that is utter domination and hard for the avg mind to put into perspective, so I will give you a pass since you seem like the type that wears that shoe

I could care less what era he played he because he easily could have put up 15ppg and 10rpg and you would be screaming what a waste of talent but he dominated on a solo level that nobody ever will with stat lines of 50+pts/30+boards/20+blocks/10+steals/10+assists in years worth of games, if Lebron were remotely close to these type of numbers for years game in and out you would literally post a thread every 5 minutes on here spewing about it, facts

get your mind right and quit talking out the side of your anus

Bartlee23
04-01-2017, 03:39 PM
lol yea his brand may not pass him but you never know. LeBrons probably got 8 years left. Anything can happen we saw that last finals.

Like I stated in multiple posts "Lebron amazes me" He's an all-time great but I have others rated as better. If you think "Lebron's brand" will be bigger than Jordan's then I don't know what to do other than laugh.

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 03:54 PM
Welcome to the NBA

"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-11, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'"


Lebron could never dominate like that, when him and Melo use to go at it when Melo was with the Nuggets he use to get 37-40+pts on Lebron at will, and the majority of the time they were matched up the entire game so he gave it to Lebron

More-Than-Most
04-01-2017, 04:04 PM
Well you are including Jordan's time in Washington at 39 after coming out of retirement... not exactly a fair comparison.

MJ's stats with the Bulls compared to LeBron are:

31.5 PPG on 23.3 Shots

LeBron is:

27.1 PPG on 19.6 Shots

But going deeper here are their TS%'s with MJ on the Bulls:

LeBron .584
Jordan .580

Here are their top PPG per 100 possession seasons:

Jordan 46.4
Jordan 43.6
Jordan 43.5
Jordan 43.0
Jordan 42.7
Jordan 42.7
Jordan 42.5
Jordan 41.8
LeBron 40.8
LeBron 40.0
Jordan 40.0
Jordan 40.0

Here are their top seasons by TS%:

LeBron .649
LeBron .640
LeBron .617
Jordan .614
Jordan .606
Jordan .605
LeBron .605
LeBron .604
Jordan .603

LeBron has 2 TS% seasons clearly better but otherwise it's fairly even, MJ has many seasons at incredibly high efficiency.

In short, MJ is the better scorer because he has a consistently higher volume on slightly worse efficiency while on the Bulls. Yeah, his time with the Wizards obviously brings his numbers down, but if that's the only leg you have to stand on to make LeBron look as good as MJ scoring-wise, it's a pretty weak argument.

Lol Val so you agree with me? :D

More-Than-Most
04-01-2017, 04:06 PM
Welcome to the NBA

"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-11, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'"


Lebron could never dominate like that, when him and Melo use to go at it when Melo was with the Nuggets he use to get 37-40+pts on Lebron at will, and the majority of the time they were matched up the entire game so he gave it to Lebron

well to be fair if lebron could just stand over guys and goal tend I am sure he would as well :shrug:

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 04:41 PM
well to be fair if lebron could just stand over guys and goal tend I am sure he would as well :shrug:

they changed rules because of how dominant this guy was not to make it easier for him to so called goaltend, which they called on him numerous times, even a ref back then called goaltend on him and told Wilts teammate that its something he deemed to be unreal so he had to call it goaltending

but let you and IKnowNothing speak on it goal tending didn't start until the 90's

at least Lebron has the chase down blocks to hold on to when comparing the two because that's about they all have in common when it comes to blocking shots, numbers aren't even close and its not a knock on Lebron at all, its okay to be in your own lane

its not Lebron's fault at all that Wilt could touch the top of the backboard

also its not Lebrons fault that Wilt didn't use his innate superhuman Giant power to bully his way to the basket for dunks/layups like Lebron does, so I guess Lebron is using his size for something as well, in a small ball era he is K Malone built/size playing PointForward, guess it works both ways

you have small forwards and undersized players like J Butler and Ariza guarding Lebron, Lebron should avg 50ppg in his era, Tayshaun Prince(too thin), the only player who truly had the traits to guard him was Artest and he was undersized as well in comparison to Lebron

basch152
04-01-2017, 04:54 PM
It amazes me when someone tries to say wilt faced any kind of real competition.

These buffoon act like if he playes today he'd still be able to average 40+ a game.

More-Than-Most
04-01-2017, 04:56 PM
they changed rules because of how dominant this guy was not to make it easier for him to so called goaltend, which they called on him numerous times, even a ref back then called goaltend on him and told Wilts teammate that its something he deemed to be unreal so he had to call it goaltending

but let you and IKnowNothing speak on it goal tending didn't start until the 90's

at least Lebron has the chase down blocks to hold on to when comparing the two because that's about they all have in common when it comes to blocking shots, numbers aren't even close and its not a knock on Lebron at all, its okay to be in your own lane

its not Lebron's fault at all that Wilt could touch the top of the backboard

also its not Lebrons fault that Wilt didn't use his innate superhuman Giant power to bully his way to the basket for dunks/layups like Lebron does, so I guess Lebron is using his size for something as well, in a small ball era he is K Malone built/size playing PointForward, guess it works both ways

you have small forwards and undersized players like J Butler and Ariza guarding Lebron, Lebron should avg 50ppg in his era, Tayshaun Prince(too thin), the only player who truly had the traits to guard him was Artest and he was undersized as well in comparison to Lebron

lebron using his strength is not the same as wilt getting blocks because he could goal tend but good try.

mrblisterdundee
04-01-2017, 05:16 PM
Itís crazy to think about, but LeBron James has a legitimate shot to be the top scorer of all time, if he feels like playing until he's nearly 40.
Lebron has scored 28,633 points over 1,056 games, which averages out to 27.11 points per game over his career. If he keeps scoring at that career average, he needs 103 games to pass Wilt Chamberlain and likely Dirk Nowitzki, 135 to pass Michael Jordan, 185 for Kobe Bryant, 306 for Karl Malone and 360 to pass Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and reach the top.
I donít think LeBron should have trouble passing Kobe for third in scoring by the time heís 35, and Malone by 37. If he stays relevant into his late 30s like Malone and Kareem did and plays until the season he turns 40, heíll take the top spot.

ewing
04-01-2017, 05:33 PM
I hope he breaks a leg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 06:11 PM
I already provided facts in a former post that Jordan's teams were not "stacked." This is the usual conclusion that people come up with that are either very young, didn't witness the games or not very educated.

You showed one little fact. Win loss record without said player is also a fact. Check it. Coaching is a huge fact. Check those then get back to me.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 06:18 PM
I'm tired of people acting like they don't need to worship the ground LeBron walks on and admit he does no wrong.


Yeah why can't people realize they need to quit there jobs, sell there children and do nothing but praise Bron daily? When you see a poster on a wall of Bron, immediately take off your close and try to make love to it! Do it people, now!

IKnowHoops
04-01-2017, 06:27 PM
I hope he breaks a leg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But this kid is not a hater

ewing
04-01-2017, 06:38 PM
But this kid is not a hater


never claimed otherwise.

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 07:21 PM
lebron using his strength is not the same as wilt getting blocks because he could goal tend but good try.

Well you said because Wilt was taller than everyone and I countered and said well Lebron is K Malone size as a PointFoward in todays small ball era so they both use what they have going for them in the era they are in, if Wilt had used his superhuman strength to dislodge and break players in half you would use that and his height against him, scary thing is if you put Wilt in todays league he would still be the tallest player so that makes no difference, he would be probably 7'3''/4 in todays shoes

how much bigger is Lebron than Butler? well that's what I mean by using his size/strength to his advantage, Lebron can play PF in todays small sized nba, he is damn near the same height/size as the Center who starts on his team, Wilt would literally sit Thompson on the rim without breaking a sweat

Lebron has gotten away with by far more bully ball charges today than Wilt got away with goaltending back then if I had to put money on it

Lebron has a pretty chase down block that he mastered but Wilt would just catch the ball in mid air, Wilt is the most dominant no matter how you slice it

I root for Lebron to win but every now and then his fan club needs a reality fact check

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2017, 07:26 PM
It amazes me when someone tries to say wilt faced any kind of real competition.

These buffoon act like if he playes today he'd still be able to average 40+ a game.

Who faced more HOF'ers, Shaq/Hakeem/DRob or Wilt?

you guys are making it seem like Shaq faced any real competition outside of a few guys, who did Shaq go up against in the Finals outside of the Dream? those Centers he faced when on the Lakers in the Finals are not top notch competition(bbq chicken), Dream beat Shaq/Ewing which is the most impressive, Lebron lost to Duncan who is not a Center and Tyson Chandler/Bogut, Jordan got lucky and never faced a dominant big in the Finals or really through his playoff runs besides Ewing unless you count Daughtery/Siekaly as stiff competiton(which I don't)

you guys are heavily overrating todays so called competition

Lebron is being guarded by guys like Bradley/Butler/Crowder/Harkless/Melo/Carroll/Morris/Harris and all are either average to decent defenders or way too small, Lebron is not being guarded by a young Ron Artest/Scottie Pippen for 80pct of his games

talk about buffoonery at its finest, Wilt would easily avg 40+ in todays game if he set his mind to do it and the team was built for it, if he is on a legit contender then he would play like he did with the Lakers and that 67' title team, he always played according to what the coaches/owner asked of him for most part, especially when he was dropping 40+ppg

WaDe03
04-01-2017, 08:59 PM
Yeah why can't people realize they need to quit there jobs, sell there children and do nothing but praise Bron daily? When you see a poster on a wall of Bron, immediately take off your close and try to make love to it! Do it people, now!

I can't stand it! "Ahhhh **** I hope LeBron breaks his leg!" No it should be, "LeBron is god and I hope he stays healthy forever, I will always worship my lord and savior!"

WaDe03
04-01-2017, 09:02 PM
Like I stated in multiple posts "Lebron amazes me" He's an all-time great but I have others rated as better. If you think "Lebron's brand" will be bigger than Jordan's then I don't know what to do other than laugh.

"You can't tell me nothin"

-Kanye Trash

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 12:50 AM
"You can't tell me nothin"

-Kanye Trash

Great comeback.... you must be educated !!! Sorry in twenty years when Lebron is retired, people will STILL be buying Jordan's.... Lebron ???

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 12:55 AM
You showed one little fact. Win loss record without said player is also a fact. Check it. Coaching is a huge fact. Check those then get back to me.

The one "little fact" was enough to prove your "theory" wrong... nothing else needs to be said/proven. You are incorrect with your comment.

BTW.. if you are referring to "great coaching" Phil Jackson won with Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe.. how's New York doing??? Check that and "get back to me."

WaDe03
04-02-2017, 03:58 AM
Great comeback.... you must be educated !!! Sorry in twenty years when Lebron is retired, people will STILL be buying Jordan's.... Lebron ???

You're very educated yourself, using Phil in New York to try and say he isn't a good coach. You said LeBron didn't have a billion dollar brand, I proved that wrong. I'm sorry I'm not going to sit here and debate 2 brands I don't give **** about.

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 09:21 AM
You're very educated yourself, using Phil in New York to try and say he isn't a good coach. You said LeBron didn't have a billion dollar brand, I proved that wrong. I'm sorry I'm not going to sit here and debate 2 brands I don't give **** about.

I admitted fault to the "billion dollar contract." Again the point since you didn't understand was it's another thing Jordan is better than Lebron at.

Phil Jackson was brought to New York to fix the team and has final say about everything being done including picking the "coaching" running the triangle and choosing who to sign which he has not done a good job.

He walked into two jobs where he had 4 of the best players to ever play the game and the teams won because of great players, not great coaching. Don't get me wrong he did a great job but IMO a little overrated due to the greatness of the players.

If you "don't care"... don't respond. I admitted fault, corrected myself with logical answers and my points were valid.

I'm done with the subject and have provided information to prove what I said, not quote people with an illogical response. Enjoy the Lebron man crush...

chi-townlove1
04-02-2017, 10:40 AM
He will never be the best player ever. Michael will always hold that. But Lebum is without doubt the second best player to ever live.

ewing
04-02-2017, 10:55 AM
He's top 50


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WaDe03
04-02-2017, 12:08 PM
I admitted fault to the "billion dollar contract." Again the point since you didn't understand was it's another thing Jordan is better than Lebron at.

Phil Jackson was brought to New York to fix the team and has final say about everything being done including picking the "coaching" running the triangle and choosing who to sign which he has not done a good job.

He walked into two jobs where he had 4 of the best players to ever play the game and the teams won because of great players, not great coaching. Don't get me wrong he did a great job but IMO a little overrated due to the greatness of the players.

If you "don't care"... don't respond. I admitted fault, corrected myself with logical answers and my points were valid.

I'm done with the subject and have provided information to prove what I said, not quote people with an illogical response. Enjoy the Lebron man crush...

So if your brand is doing better you're a better player? Jordan is the better player but to use his brand as part of the reasoning makes no sense. Lillards brand is bigger than Kawhi, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, etc. is he better than them? No.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 12:42 PM
Great comeback.... you must be educated !!! Sorry in twenty years when Lebron is retired, people will STILL be buying Jordan's.... Lebron ???

He got a lifetime deal with Nike...
So yeah in 20 years, kids will be buying Lebrons...without a doubt that will be happening.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 12:51 PM
The one "little fact" was enough to prove your "theory" wrong... nothing else needs to be said/proven. You are incorrect with your comment.

BTW.. if you are referring to "great coaching" Phil Jackson won with Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe.. how's New York doing??? Check that and "get back to me."

Wow!

and you are 100% wrong.

Jordans best teams are way better than Lebron's best teams, and record without said players proves that. So you are now done.

NewYork? Is he coaching? Is any player there any good at all? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. I'm starting to see your style of arguing. 100 things could point the other way...but you will find one that points your way and run with it at the speed of light.

No team Bron has been on would of won 50+ games without him. None. Get back to me when you realize this, and that Phil isn't coaching. Neither Kobe or Jordan has won without Phil. And Shaq won with Pat. Hebron has won with Eric "I was a trash coach then" Spoelstra and rookie coach Tyronne Lue. If you think Spoelstra and Lue are close to Phil, then get back to me when you realize that is not true. Both Jordan and Kobe have lost miserably without Phil. Jordan used to ball hog a little to much and Kobe needed a choke chain on his neck from Shaq and Phil in order to get him to play ball the right way in order to win a ring. Lebron automatically plays the game the way it is supposed to be played in order to win a ring. Get back to me Jordan or Kobe wins a ring without Phil.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 12:54 PM
He will never be the best player ever. Michael will always hold that. But Lebum is without doubt the second best player to ever live.

I aint mad at ya

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 01:03 PM
And just so you know, I think Miami had close to the talent of the Bulls, but the construction of the Bulls was perfect. You had some big 7 footers that could get dirty. You had tough PF's that rebounded and played lock down defense. You had 3 of the top 10 defensive basketball players to ever play the game and arguable all were the best defensive players ever at there position. You had PG's who were amazing 3pt marksmen. You had a team built to win a ring.

Miami had all there talent in guys that play the wing, no rebounding, no toughness, without Bron a horrible defense, and on top of that, everyone accept bron that mattered was injury prone.

When Jordan left, the team was a 50+ win team without him. They were probably the 2nd best team in the east without Jordan. With out Lebron, Miami was not going anywhere. They had so many weaknesses as a team, thats why Lebron routinely lead them in pts/reb/asst/stl/blocks from one playoff series to the next.

How many times did Jordan do that. I can assure you not nearly as many times as Bron if ever.

That says two things.

Bron can do more than Jordan
Lebrun's teams were worse than Jordan's.

nastynice
04-02-2017, 01:19 PM
... Like I said if not for the 6-0 finals record there isnt much Jordan has on lebron.

lol, wtf? Jordan is a WAY better scorer, perimeter defender (tbh, he's probably a better all around defender, take out Lebron's 3 yrs in Miami and his defense is really nothing special), drawing defenders, moving off the ball, first step, finisher in the paint, probably a better rebounder. He's better at ALOT of things, and vice versa. They are fundamentally diff players

Haha, MTM, you crazy!

nastynice
04-02-2017, 01:23 PM
Jordans best teams are way better than Lebron's best teams, and record without said players proves that. So you are now done.



No team Bron has been on would of won 50+ games without him.

Stop nut hugging. Prime Wade and bosh in the east were instant title contenders, you can't seriously be arguing against that. Kyrie and love and co are probably favorites in the east today.

Not saying Lebron's teams are as good as Jordan's, but this whole he has no team myth is just ridiculous. Lebron's style doesn't allow stars to elevate their game. Jordan's does

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 01:42 PM
Stop nut hugging. Prime Wade and bosh in the east were instant title contenders, you can't seriously be arguing against that. Kyrie and love and co are probably favorites in the east today.

Not saying Lebron's teams are as good as Jordan's, but this whole he has no team myth is just ridiculous. Lebron's style doesn't allow stars to elevate their game. Jordan's does

Unfortunately the records of the teams without Lebron destroy your argument. Miami was pure garbage before adding Lebron and Bosh. Adding Bosh alone may have made them a 6th seed in the east if they were lucky.

Kyrie couldn't win 30 games without Lebron. Love couldn't get to the playoffs. They are very good players, but also they both have huge flaws and weaknesses that stop them from being winners in this league.

And you dont need to put words into my mouth to try and win an argument. I even go on to say that I think the Heat were close to the talent of the Bulls but I am probably wrong about that the more I think about it. After the big three, everyone, and I mean everyone that first year was pure garbage. Probably the worst 4-15 I have ever seen.

You more than anyone should know how important bench is. Without Barbosa, Iggy, your 6'8 backup PG (forgot his name and to lazy to care) you guys have no championships against the Cavs.

ah yes livingston

Vinylman
04-02-2017, 01:50 PM
Sure, but Shaq also played to 38, covered 19 seasons.

Bron is in his age 32 season, finishing his 14th season.

Jordan played 15 seasons.

I always laugh when I see posts like this because it never factors in that guys didn't play chit toward the end of their career while LeBron is still in his prime...

yet posters always want to talk about the # of season played... LMFAO

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 01:57 PM
I always laugh when I see posts like this because it never factors in that guys didn't play chit toward the end of their career while LeBron is still in his prime...

yet posters always want to talk about the # of season played... LMFAO

This is one of the dumbest posts I have read in long time.

I would break it down, but the fact that I need to just makes it not worth my time.

Vinylman
04-02-2017, 01:58 PM
So what's Kobe's excuse then. "the greatest scorer ever" and he isn't on Lebron's level. Dudes can't come into the league at 18 and beast like Bron did. The fact he was able to come in at 18 and be the best player on an NBA team, then then next season as a 19 year old be a top 8 player in the NBA.

Yeah I guess anyone who gets to skip college can do this huh? Yes you are hating. What he has done couldn't of been done and hasn't been done by anyone. So I am sucking him off? Man I bet if he flew and saved a plane from falling out of the sky, you'd be like, "anyone who can fly and has super powers can do that, what's the big deal" SMH

typical... what does kobe have to do with this?

don't bruise your lips fellating LBJ

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 01:59 PM
typical... what does kobe have to do with this?

don't bruise your lips fellating LBJ

So much that it hurts you.

Vinylman
04-02-2017, 02:16 PM
This is one of the dumbest posts I have read in long time.

I would break it down, but the fact that I need to just makes it not worth my time.

break it down for us...

tell us how guys numbers over a career don't significantly drop off on a per season basis at the end of their careers...

enlighten us

Vinylman
04-02-2017, 02:17 PM
So much that it hurts you.

LMFAO... you have to prop LBJ up by tearing another player down... got it

LA_Raiders
04-02-2017, 02:21 PM
Iol. He is a great player, but a ****** *** leader. He needs 2 all stars next to him to win. And don't forget he is the king of flop.

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 04:52 PM
Wow!

and you are 100% wrong.

Jordans best teams are way better than Lebron's best teams, and record without said players proves that. So you are now done.

NewYork? Is he coaching? Is any player there any good at all? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. I'm starting to see your style of arguing. 100 things could point the other way...but you will find one that points your way and run with it at the speed of light.

No team Bron has been on would of won 50+ games without him. None. Get back to me when you realize this, and that Phil isn't coaching. Neither Kobe or Jordan has won without Phil. And Shaq won with Pat. Hebron has won with Eric "I was a trash coach then" Spoelstra and rookie coach Tyronne Lue. If you think Spoelstra and Lue are close to Phil, then get back to me when you realize that is not true. Both Jordan and Kobe have lost miserably without Phil. Jordan used to ball hog a little to much and Kobe needed a choke chain on his neck from Shaq and Phil in order to get him to play ball the right way in order to win a ring. Lebron automatically plays the game the way it is supposed to be played in order to win a ring. Get back to me Jordan or Kobe wins a ring without Phil.

LeBron plays against much weaker competition than Jordan
27 of Jordan's 37 playoff opponents had 50+ wins (73% of them)
meaning only 10 total teams were sub-50 wins (27% of them)
and was 10-0 against those sub-50 win teams

LeBron has already played 18 sub-50 win teams in the playoffs as of 2016, out of 37 playoff opponents (49% of them) - adjusting 2012 lockouts for 82 games

so you can imagine how much more free passes Jordan would have in LeBron's shoes in the playoffs. In the 2013 Playoffs for example, LeBron did not face a 50-win team before the Finals

LeBron has never beaten 3 50+ win teams or 2 60+ win teams in any playoff run (even if you adjust 2012 lockout teams for 82 games), but Jordan beat 3 50+ win teams in each of the 1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998 title runs, as well as 2 60-win teams in each of the 1993, 1996, and 1997 title runs. Hakeem also beat 3 50+ win teams in the 1994 title run and 4 57+ win teams in the 1995 title run. Had KJ and Barkley not missed a combined 59 games on the 59-23 Suns, the 1995 Rockets would have been the only team to beat 3 60+ win teams in a playoff run. LeBron's competition does not begin to compare. Whereas LeBron's three championships came in one of the weakest eras, all of Jordan's championships came in the most stacked era.

Jordan carried an equally bad, if not worse, team as the 2007 Cavs to 6 games against a much better opponent than the 2007 Spurs in the 1989 Pistons. Of course, he didn't make the Finals because he didn't have the luxury of facing two 0.500 teams and a Pistons team without their best defender (4x DPOY Ben Wallace) or their Hall of Fame coach (Larry Brown)

2007 Finals, LeBron's best teammates
Gooden - 13-8-0 on 50%
Gibson - 11-2-3 on 44%
Pavlovic - 10-3-1 on 36%
Ilgauskus - 8-10-1 on 35%

1989 ECF, Jordan's best teammates
Hodges - 12-2-3 on 45%
Cartwright - 11-6-1 on 41%
Pippen - 10-7-3 on 40%
Grant - 9-9-2 on 50%

The supporting cast numbers look similar, but remember that Jordan played great on both offense and defense in the 89 ECF and created much more opportunities for his teammates than Lebron did with his poor play on both ends in the 2007 finals.

LeBron has 3 of the top 10 worst Finals performances of all-time, whereas Jordan never had a poor Finals performance, despite playing half of his Finals games from ages 33-35 well past his prime, and against far superior competition.

Even in 1996, his only bad games were Games 4 and 6, and he did the best defensive job by shutting down Payton in Games 3 (stat padding after MJ sat out) and Game 5 and was their best offensive player as well. MJ was the only Bull who showed up on both offense and defense for those 1996 Finals.

For me is not even close MJ 6-0 with 6 Finals MVP's and he never let a Finals series go to 7 games. MJ was far more dominant in the Finals and when the team needed him the most.

If you look at the 2007 NBA Finals, yes the Spurs were the favorites but if Lebron would have played better they could have easily won 2 games that were close and not being sweept. He shot just 35% from the field, 20% from 3's and almost 6 turnovers a game and that was after having that great 48 point game against the pistons in the previous series.

2011 Finals for Lebron was the meltdown had James show up the heat would had won that series.

2013 Finals James almost blew game 6 with 2 bad turnovers Ray Allen save the day with that huge three pointer of the corner to force game 7.

2015 NBA Finals although James was undermaned and play great he was very inefficient shot under 40% for the series and despite that they had a shot to winning the series.

In game 1 they were tied at 98, had he made that last shot the cavs would had won the game and the series would have been 3-0 instead of 2-1 and in game 4 what happened James came out flat with 20 PTS on 7-22 and the cavs lost the game. So had Lebron made some shots the Cavs would had won the series.

James also for whatever reason becomes way to passive in situations were the team needs him the most and then is too late to stop the bleeding. James is great but his not MJ. Numbers alone don't tell all the story of a player.

Well... i'm done with you... no need to continue. The information is there for you and I've proven again you're wrong.... time for a name change because it's obvious you don't know shitz....

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 04:58 PM
So if your brand is doing better you're a better player? Jordan is the better player but to use his brand as part of the reasoning makes no sense. Lillards brand is bigger than Kawhi, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, etc. is he better than them? No.

I understand the man-crush... take it easy. Please quote anywhere where I said " the brand makes Jordan a better player????" I stated it was another "thing" he was better at... Learn to read and quit getting your panties in a bunch about your hero. He's great but not on the pedestal of Jordan.

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 05:00 PM
He got a lifetime deal with Nike...
So yeah in 20 years, kids will be buying Lebrons...without a doubt that will be happening.

You can tell the future too.... but don't know shitz about hoops ???

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 06:37 PM
You can tell the future too.... but don't know shitz about hoops ???

Oh s--- your a hypocrite too?! Dang, arguing with you is gonna be a s--- show.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2017, 07:06 PM
break it down for us...

tell us how guys numbers over a career don't significantly drop off on a per season basis at the end of their careers...

enlighten us

OK try and keep up though. If you don't understand this simple concept as it is, you may have trouble.

Point #1.

Shaq played 19 years
Lebron has played 14 years

If we took Shaq's best 14 years, The Lebron would of just passed him in 12 years and by year 14 would be around 4000 points ahead of him.

...This means your point is s---

Point #2

The fact that Lebron was able to be so dominant for so long, that he has passed him and is still technically in his prime, means that he is experiencing a reidiculously long and dominating Prime...which is part of the reason why Lebron so amazing. How in the hell do you accumulate enough points to pass Shaq, and you are still in your prime while doing so? That is what is the most amazing part. Concentrate and take this in Vinylman. He is not passing shaq in the twighlight of his career, like every other great player in history does when they pass a top 10 scorer on the scoring list.

Again, to no surprise...this makes you point pure stinking s---

Point 3

Revert back to the first 2 points, let reality sink in, and realize the point you made does not apply at all do to all circumstances involved because the last five years mean nothing at all, and Shaq's production verses Brons is still dwarfed now and even worse in the future based on any amount of years they both played and with any filter you want to apply.

I hope all of this didn't go over your head.

Bron came in at 19
Shaq came in at 20
Kobe came in at 18

just in case you thought you were going to use the age they entered the league as an argument for anything...which by the way would hurt your case because Shaq came in as the most mature physically thus had the fastest start. Lebron despite this was able to catch him in less years and pass him while still in near prime form.

"Go ahead killer"
Mad props and respect to anyone who can name what movie I am referencing with this.

Bartlee23
04-02-2017, 08:24 PM
Oh s--- your a hypocrite too?! Dang, arguing with you is gonna be a s--- show.

All I've provided is facts and logic. You've done/said nothing valid and your posts are inaccurate. Fail...

nastynice
04-02-2017, 09:27 PM
Unfortunately the records of the teams without Lebron destroy your argument. Miami was pure garbage before adding Lebron and Bosh. Adding Bosh alone may have made them a 6th seed in the east if they were lucky.

Kyrie couldn't win 30 games without Lebron. Love couldn't get to the playoffs. They are very good players, but also they both have huge flaws and weaknesses that stop them from being winners in this league.

And you dont need to put words into my mouth to try and win an argument. I even go on to say that I think the Heat were close to the talent of the Bulls but I am probably wrong about that the more I think about it. After the big three, everyone, and I mean everyone that first year was pure garbage. Probably the worst 4-15 I have ever seen.

You more than anyone should know how important bench is. Without Barbosa, Iggy, your 6'8 backup PG (forgot his name and to lazy to care) you guys have no championships against the Cavs.

ah yes livingston

Ur trippin, you think without lebron bosh would be be parked in the 3pt territory? You think love would leave his post game for that ****? Cmon now, you just gonna subtract lebron and say look?

Jordan's team was better, and I criticized the cle front office Lebron's first round, but since then he's had some pretty good teams (til Wade kept breaking down), this cavs team is actually a great team, even while wasting love's talent.

I know about depth, bro our front office is killin it, we make moves and it legit makes other fans angry, it lead to the formation of a new big 3 on the forum

WaDe03
04-02-2017, 10:26 PM
I understand the man-crush... take it easy. Please quote anywhere where I said " the brand makes Jordan a better player????" I stated it was another "thing" he was better at... Learn to read and quit getting your panties in a bunch about your hero. He's great but not on the pedestal of Jordan.

He's definitely not my hero lol. That was just a terrible point to try to make when discussing who's better.

One Nut Kruk
04-02-2017, 11:28 PM
some of you guys only see MJ on NBA Classics or something?

IKnowHoops
04-03-2017, 12:30 AM
Just to be clear, I am not arguing for who was better between Mike and Bron.

100% fine with anyone who thinks Mike was better. He may be. I like Lebron's versatility and the fact that it is a close call, Ill take Brons versatility and unbelievable God Given Body to make any play. I love Mike and believe they are on similar levels. Not really sure who is better. They affect the game in many of the same ways but many different ways as well. I'm just arguing some of the nonsense within the argument. Take who you want, both are unbelievable.

I will never argue against Mike. I won't tell someone they are wrong for thinking Mike is better. When it comes to Mike and Bron, its always who I would take, not who was better. I really am not sure about the answer. I do know that Lebron is the more durable player and will last longer. As a franchise, that would tip the scale for me as who I am going to take. Both will make me about the same money.

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 12:55 AM
How many NBA superstars today would win if they had:

1) The greatest perimeter defender who can get you 20/6/6
2) The greatest rebounder/one of the greatest defenders as well
3) The most winning coach of all-time

Some of you have short-term memory and forget that it was Pippen who led the Bulls in rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in all of their six rings together. But yeah, Jordan "did it all" for them. Please tell me how Jordan wins with a knee-hobbled Wade+a Bosh who gets outrebounded by Roy Hibbert? You guys wanna know why Roy Hibbert was so hyped? Cause he dominated Bosh. And so did good ole KG, Timmy D, Al jefferson, and "Joke"im Noah. Literally, out of all their matchups in the playoffs, Bosh only dominated Carlos Snoozer. We can go through the numbers and I can guarantee you Bosh was not a top player. He might have looked good with the Raptors but Kevin Love looked good with the Wolves too. Some of you pretend that Jordan won when he had his best seasons.. except he didn't. He lost and lost in his best seasons. So the one thing that changed was:

1) League got weaker.
2) He got a better team.

I don't think Jordan has beaten a team better than the 13 Spurs or 16 Warriors. Anyone know one? Hell, he probably hasn't beaten a better team than OKC, either. Kemp+GP?

Not arguing LeBron vs Jordan but you guys are way too nostalgic. I guess marketing is one hell of a drug and Nike+McDonald's+NBA made you all eat it like a late night buffet.

Then you have some old geezer, cough, euro, cough, who keeps wanking himself off to Wilt... this dude clearly does not comprehend that Wilt played in a league in which there were what? 10 teams? And that pace they were playing in benefited Wilt so much because he was just on another league of his own. Basketball was still a young sport and the gameplay was completely unorganized. You are totally clueless if you don't think any player today playing back then at Wilt's time wouldn't average absurd numbers. You are hilarious if you think Westbrook would not run circles over them like a Harlem G-Trotters event. then this euro guy keeps talking about the league changing the rules.. yes, the league changes or adds a rule because time changes... the game was still in its baby stages so they needed time to develop the game.. why do you think there's been so many amendments added since centuries ago? dummy..

Probably my favorite ones are the people still saying "Lebron came out of hs. he has a head start." He's been in the league for 14 seasons and has played more NBA games/minutes than any other player up to age 32 by a long mile while never being severely injured once in his career. go find me another player with such a history of dominance.. Karl Malone was never at LeBron's level. He played PF -- less wear & tear than someone who has to play the swing position and carry both the offense/defense. you guys have terrible arguments. one guy brings up LeBron's hairline... stop worrying about his hairline and worry about your girl sliding into lebron's dms..

ewing
04-03-2017, 08:06 AM
at least we got all our worst user in one place.

europagnpilgrim
04-03-2017, 09:52 AM
How many NBA superstars today would win if they had:

1) The greatest perimeter defender who can get you 20/6/6
2) The greatest rebounder/one of the greatest defenders as well
3) The most winning coach of all-time

Some of you have short-term memory and forget that it was Pippen who led the Bulls in rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in all of their six rings together. But yeah, Jordan "did it all" for them. Please tell me how Jordan wins with a knee-hobbled Wade+a Bosh who gets outrebounded by Roy Hibbert? You guys wanna know why Roy Hibbert was so hyped? Cause he dominated Bosh. And so did good ole KG, Timmy D, Al jefferson, and "Joke"im Noah. Literally, out of all their matchups in the playoffs, Bosh only dominated Carlos Snoozer. We can go through the numbers and I can guarantee you Bosh was not a top player. He might have looked good with the Raptors but Kevin Love looked good with the Wolves too. Some of you pretend that Jordan won when he had his best seasons.. except he didn't. He lost and lost in his best seasons. So the one thing that changed was:

1) League got weaker.
2) He got a better team.

I don't think Jordan has beaten a team better than the 13 Spurs or 16 Warriors. Anyone know one? Hell, he probably hasn't beaten a better team than OKC, either. Kemp+GP?

Not arguing LeBron vs Jordan but you guys are way too nostalgic. I guess marketing is one hell of a drug and Nike+McDonald's+NBA made you all eat it like a late night buffet.

Then you have some old geezer, cough, euro, cough, who keeps wanking himself off to Wilt... this dude clearly does not comprehend that Wilt played in a league in which there were what? 10 teams? And that pace they were playing in benefited Wilt so much because he was just on another league of his own. Basketball was still a young sport and the gameplay was completely unorganized. You are totally clueless if you don't think any player today playing back then at Wilt's time wouldn't average absurd numbers. You are hilarious if you think Westbrook would not run circles over them like a Harlem G-Trotters event. then this euro guy keeps talking about the league changing the rules.. yes, the league changes or adds a rule because time changes... the game was still in its baby stages so they needed time to develop the game.. why do you think there's been so many amendments added since centuries ago? dummy..

Probably my favorite ones are the people still saying "Lebron came out of hs. he has a head start." He's been in the league for 14 seasons and has played more NBA games/minutes than any other player up to age 32 by a long mile while never being severely injured once in his career. go find me another player with such a history of dominance.. Karl Malone was never at LeBron's level. He played PF -- less wear & tear than someone who has to play the swing position and carry both the offense/defense. you guys have terrible arguments. one guy brings up LeBron's hairline... stop worrying about his hairline and worry about your girl sliding into lebron's dms..

Lebron is accomplishing all this in the weakest era of basketball ever but you got the stupidity to think this is the toughest era because its more athletes/players

if it was the best 10-16 teams in the league right now don't you know how strong of a league that would be? you cant take a game off if you are playing the cream of the crop players but with 30 teams you can pick and choose when to play because its such a weak watered down product

I am young(but keep thinking I am old because it reminds me how educated I am) but I respect all and never disrespect the foundation, you are a what we would call a chap or still drinking similac

back then players actually cared/loved the game more I feel but now its all about a dollar bill and no passion, just a bunch of branding diva type(hello Lebron) aka fakers

of course time advances but that doesn't make it better, Jim Brown was doing his thing back in his day and just because Johnson runs for 2k doesn't mean he is a better running back, that's how I look at Wilt compared to whoever you got, which seems to be Lebron, he was Lebron x 10 in his day

Wilt was getting paid(his actual worth to the league) what owners back then paid to purchase a team, let me know when your boyfriend Lebron does that, and don't bring no weak excuse like the dollar amount is different because if you are as good as Lebron you should be making 150million per season on bball contract according to you and IKnowNothingAboutHoopsButWhatIHaveWitnessed

and like I said if Wilt had avg 15ppg and 10rpg you would be running off at the mouth about how ****** he was and wasted his unreal talent, but he went Superman and it pains you because he dwarfs your hero in the record books, now go and read that shirt that your boyfriend Lebron was wearing after he loss in the 09' or 10' playoffs and see what he plays the game for just like Wilt did way back in his day, STATS

you are the type of character who thinks Bird/Magic saved the NBA, no it was Wilt who did way back to make way for your boyfriend Lebron to shine, no player dominated on a solo level like Wilt and no player ever will

when you put up 50+pts/30+boards/20+blocks/10+assists/10+steals in games for years then you literally are bigger than the game, Wilt did it like that, on cruise control

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 10:55 AM
Lebron is accomplishing all this in the weakest era of basketball ever but you got the stupidity to think this is the toughest era because its more athletes/players

if it was the best 10-16 teams in the league right now don't you know how strong of a league that would be? you cant take a game off if you are playing the cream of the crop players but with 30 teams you can pick and choose when to play because its such a weak watered down product

I am young(but keep thinking I am old because it reminds me how educated I am) but I respect all and never disrespect the foundation, you are a what we would call a chap or still drinking similac

back then players actually cared/loved the game more I feel but now its all about a dollar bill and no passion, just a bunch of branding diva type(hello Lebron) aka fakers

of course time advances but that doesn't make it better, Jim Brown was doing his thing back in his day and just because Johnson runs for 2k doesn't mean he is a better running back, that's how I look at Wilt compared to whoever you got, which seems to be Lebron, he was Lebron x 10 in his day

Wilt was getting paid(his actual worth to the league) what owners back then paid to purchase a team, let me know when your boyfriend Lebron does that, and don't bring no weak excuse like the dollar amount is different because if you are as good as Lebron you should be making 150million per season on bball contract according to you and IKnowNothingAboutHoopsButWhatIHaveWitnessed

and like I said if Wilt had avg 15ppg and 10rpg you would be running off at the mouth about how ****** he was and wasted his unreal talent, but he went Superman and it pains you because he dwarfs your hero in the record books, now go and read that shirt that your boyfriend Lebron was wearing after he loss in the 09' or 10' playoffs and see what he plays the game for just like Wilt did way back in his day, STATS

you are the type of character who thinks Bird/Magic saved the NBA, no it was Wilt who did way back to make way for your boyfriend Lebron to shine, no player dominated on a solo level like Wilt and no player ever will

when you put up 50+pts/30+boards/20+blocks/10+assists/10+steals in games for years then you literally are bigger than the game, Wilt did it like that, on cruise control

1) Lebron isn't making that money because of a salary cap.. everyone knows he's worth way more than what he's getting paid now.. dummy..
2) bringing up Wilt's inflated stats.. you are a clown. You thinking he can average a quintuple double in today's league is probably the laughable part.. when you account for his production on a per possession basis, he's as good as Shaq was.
3) Oh ya.. Wilt was the one who saved the NBA.. Must be why NBA suffered terrible ratings and attendance and then had to introduce the three point line, right? another case of you being delusional.
4) there will never be a league in which there is top competition every night.. name me a sport that has been the case. the point is, the players today and systems in-tact are far more advanced than when wilt played and all they did was dribble the ball and hand it to the closest man in the basket. it's far more different, silly grandpa.
5) Back then, players played and still had a part-time job because NBA was paying so little due to the fact that it was not as popular as the bigger sports.. aka, a lot of the better talent couldn't play basketball because the opportunities weren't there. Also, the talent wasn't there because most were still being racially profiled.. which is why you saw so many white players compared to today in which the consensus is that blacks are better than whites at basketball.. you are a total clown. you probably think jesse owens is better at track than Usain Bolt too.. how about you get some facts.. saying Wilt put up 50/30 and whatever else you say is only impressive when you're playing against the best competition. and it's funny how Wilt only has 2x championships (only 1 without mr. west).. if he put up those numbers, how come he couldn't win more? why couldn't he dominate Bill? LMAO, I love your excuses for Wilt Chamberlain. They said Wilt has had sex with thousands of women... are you one of them?
6) Weakest era of basketball? funny considering most would associate that with Wilt's era.. idiot..

Bartlee23
04-03-2017, 10:57 AM
How many NBA superstars today would win if they had:

1) The greatest perimeter defender who can get you 20/6/6
2) The greatest rebounder/one of the greatest defenders as well
3) The most winning coach of all-time

Some of you have short-term memory and forget that it was Pippen who led the Bulls in rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in all of their six rings together. But yeah, Jordan "did it all" for them. Please tell me how Jordan wins with a knee-hobbled Wade+a Bosh who gets outrebounded by Roy Hibbert? You guys wanna know why Roy Hibbert was so hyped? Cause he dominated Bosh. And so did good ole KG, Timmy D, Al jefferson, and "Joke"im Noah. Literally, out of all their matchups in the playoffs, Bosh only dominated Carlos Snoozer. We can go through the numbers and I can guarantee you Bosh was not a top player. He might have looked good with the Raptors but Kevin Love looked good with the Wolves too. Some of you pretend that Jordan won when he had his best seasons.. except he didn't. He lost and lost in his best seasons. So the one thing that changed was:

1) League got weaker.
2) He got a better team.

I don't think Jordan has beaten a team better than the 13 Spurs or 16 Warriors. Anyone know one? Hell, he probably hasn't beaten a better team than OKC, either. Kemp+GP?

Not arguing LeBron vs Jordan but you guys are way too nostalgic. I guess marketing is one hell of a drug and Nike+McDonald's+NBA made you all eat it like a late night buffet.

Then you have some old geezer, cough, euro, cough, who keeps wanking himself off to Wilt... this dude clearly does not comprehend that Wilt played in a league in which there were what? 10 teams? And that pace they were playing in benefited Wilt so much because he was just on another league of his own. Basketball was still a young sport and the gameplay was completely unorganized. You are totally clueless if you don't think any player today playing back then at Wilt's time wouldn't average absurd numbers. You are hilarious if you think Westbrook would not run circles over them like a Harlem G-Trotters event. then this euro guy keeps talking about the league changing the rules.. yes, the league changes or adds a rule because time changes... the game was still in its baby stages so they needed time to develop the game.. why do you think there's been so many amendments added since centuries ago? dummy..

Probably my favorite ones are the people still saying "Lebron came out of hs. he has a head start." He's been in the league for 14 seasons and has played more NBA games/minutes than any other player up to age 32 by a long mile while never being severely injured once in his career. go find me another player with such a history of dominance.. Karl Malone was never at LeBron's level. He played PF -- less wear & tear than someone who has to play the swing position and carry both the offense/defense. you guys have terrible arguments. one guy brings up LeBron's hairline... stop worrying about his hairline and worry about your girl sliding into lebron's dms..

Wow... where to begin? So many holes in your " logic ".......

I agree that Jordan would not have won 6 without Scottie, though I believe he would have won 2 or 3. Not being able to win 6 without Scottie is irrelevant since no player has won 2+ rings without another Hall of Fame teammate.

Pippen did play very well for most of the Bulls first 3peat, but the second 3peat wasn't the same story for Pippen. In the 3 regular seasons of the Bulls last 3 championships, Pippen averaged a combined 20-6-6 on 46%. But then look at how drastically his production fell off in the playoffs when it mattered most.

1996 ECSF vs Knicks - 15.6 ppg on a terrible 33%, 8.2 rpg, 5.2 apg
Every single Bulls starter besides Jordan and Rodman shot 37% or worse, but Jordan still got the job done
1996 Finals vs Sonics - 15.7 ppg on a poor 34%, 8.2 rpg 5.3 apg
Pippen was outscored by Detlef Schrempf in this series, while Jordan locked down Gary Payton in Game 3 and Game 5.
Jordan made up for his poor FG% by shutting down the other team's best player (not Pippen) twice.
1997 ECF vs Heat - 16.8 ppg on 42%, 5.0 rpg, 2.8 apg to 3 turnovers per game
1997 Finals vs Jazz - Pippen did not do well in 3 of the 4 wins, including the series-deciding Games 5 and 6
In Game 2, Pippen had 10-6-4 on a terrible 31%. Rodman only had 7 rebounds in 25 minutes, and Harper was the only other double digit teammate with 13-2-4 on 50%
Jordan carried the team with 38-13-9-2 on 55%, leading them in points, rebounds, and assists by a large margin. He had almost triple the points of his next leading scorer (38 to 13), almost double the rebounds of the next rebounder (13 to 7) and more than double the next-leading player in assists (9 to 4)
In the Flu game, Pippen had 17 pts but on a horrible 29% shooting. Pippen also had 5 assists to 3 turnovers and 4 fouls.
Kukoc was the only other Jordan teammate in double figures with 12
Dennis Rodman fouled out in only 23 minutes during the Flu Game.
Greg Ostertag, of all people, outrebounded all of Jordan's teammates with 15. Greg Ostertag.
Ostertag and Stockton both outscored all of Jordan's teammates besides Pippen, who needed a shot-jacking and bricking 29% to get his points.
Despite having so little help on offense, Jordan singlehandedly brought the Bulls back from 16 down and had the go-ahead 3-pointer with 25 seconds left to take a 3-2 lead in the series. Jordan finished with 38-7-5-3 on 48%, leading his team in points, assists, and steals
In Game 6, Pippen had 23 points, but on a horrible 35% with 2 assists to 5 turnovers and 5 fouls. To his credit, he did force a turnover on the last possession of the game, but that was only possible thanks to Jordan having the game-winning assist one play earlier in spite of Pippen's horrible play.
In Game 6, no other player besides Pippen and Jordan had 10 points, and as we saw Pippen was shooting horribly to get those points. Every other teammate of Jordan's got outscored by John Stockton, Bryon Russell, Jeff Hornacek, and Karl Malone.
Despite the lack of help, Jordan ended up with 39-11-4, leading his team in points, rebounds, and assists, and set up Steve Kerr for a wide-open shot with his championship-winning assist.
In the 1997 Finals, Jordan averaged 32-7-6-1-1 on 46%. If we count assists as 2 points, he scored/assisted 44 of the Bulls 88 ppg in the 1997 Finals - exactly 50% of their points were because of Jordan.
After being tied 2-2, Pippen struggled in the clinching games 5 and 6, averaging 20 ppg on 32% shooting with 3.5 apg to 4 turnovers and 4.5 fouls. Yet Jordan made a game-winning play in both Games 5 and 6 to win the title.
After having 27-9-2 on 58% in the Game 1 win, Pippen averaged 16.7 - 8.3 - 3.7 on 32% with 3.0 TOpg and 3.7 fouls per game in their last 3 wins during Games 2-5-6.
Including Pippen's good Game 1, he averaged 19.3 - 8.5 - 3.3 on 39% with 3.8 TOpg and 3.3 fouls per game in the 4 wins. Pippen averaged more turnovers than assists and as many fouls as assists in the 4 wins while shooting 35% or worse in 3/4 wins.

1998 ECF vs Pacers - 16.6 ppg on 39%, 7.7 rpg, 5.3 apg
Game 4, Pippen misses 2 free throws that would have given the Bulls a 3-point lead. Because of Pippen, Reggie Miller hits the go ahead 3 to tie the series at 2-2 when the Bulls could have been up 3-1
Game 6, Pippen only had 1 point in the 4th quarter. The Bulls lost by 2, and the series went to Game 7 thanks to Pippen disappearing
There were two separate occasions where Pippen could have easily ended the series if he played just a little better, but he failed to step up.
In Game 7, although MJ shot a poor 36%, he still put up a near triple double of 28-9-8 while also holding Reggie Miller to 0 points in the 4th quarter after lighting up the Bulls for 22 points in 7/12 FG through 3 quarters. It was Jordan who shut down the other team's best player in Game 7, not Pippen.
Ironically, Jordan shut down Miller in Game 7 after Miller was able to hit a game winner in Game 4 due to Pippen's missed free throws.
1998 Finals vs Jazz - 15.7 ppg on 41%, 6.8 rpg, 4.8 apg
In Game 1, Pippen had 21 points on a terrible 37% and 1 assist to 5 turnovers.
Jordan only had 2 assists in this game, because his teammates shot a combined 40%
- In spite of all that poor play, Jordan sent the Bulls to overtime with his game-tying assist to Luc Longley
- With the Bulls down 3 in overtime, Jordan set up Pippen for a wide-open 3, but Pippen bricked it as the Bulls lost Game 1.
Even though Jordan lost this game with his team struggling, he at least put his team in a position to win by setting up Longley for the tying-assist, and setting up Pippen for a wide-open 3. Lebron never put his team in any position to win during the 2014 Finals when his teammates struggled, unlike Jordan.
In Game 6, Pippen injured his back early in the game and only played 26 minutes. He had just 8 points and was ineffective throughout the game.
Kukoc was the only Jordan teammate in double figures with 15
Jeff Hornacek with 17 points outscored all of Jordan's teammates.
Rodman usually played great defense on Karl Malone in the 1997 and 1998 Finals, but in this particular game Malone had a monster game of 31 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, and 58% shooting.
Instead of passively letting his team get blown out like Lebron in the 2014 Finals, Jordan took over the game with 45 points, and had the series-winning steal and shot - getting it done on both ends of the floor - to win his last championship.
In 3 of the Bulls' 8 Finals wins against the Jazz, (1997 Game 5 and 6, and 1998 Game 6) Jordan took over wit his team struggling
Also, in Game 3 of the 1991 Finals, Jordan was forced to take over after Pippen fouled out and put Divac at the line for an And-1. With the Lakers up 2 and only 11 seconds left in the 4th quarter, Jordan led the Bulls to a 14-4 run (scoring 8 points and assisting on 2 baskets to Paxson + Grant) after Pippen fouled out right before OT in Game 3, 1991 Finals. Pippen played very well in that game before fouling out (19-14-5-4), but Jordan still got it done when he had to with Pippen sitting out.

Jordan won regardless, even if his best teammate played horrible in 1997 and 1998. Thats something Magic, Bird, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, etc can't say. They never singlehandedly carried their team and consistently took over big games to decide the NBA Finals while their second/third options of Magic/Kareem/Worthy, McHale/Maxwell/Johnson, Wade/Bosh, or Gasol played as horribly as Pippen did in several series of the Bulls' last 3peat.

Bottom line is Jordan has earned his title on the top... not "nostalgic"... they're called facts. Like I said before, numbers alone don't tell all the story of a player. Bosh and Wade... say what you want, they were better than 95% of the players in the league and their accomplishments were an epic failure in a much weaker league than what Jordan played in.

I won't comment about the Wlit part because you never saw him play so you can provide no more than your " opinion." I posted on here facts that Jordan played in a much tougher era than Lebron and why he is the greatest of all-time. But IMO your 'theories" are flawed as I have shown facts.

BTW... I was the one who brought up Lebron's " hairline ".... it was stated in more of a sarcasm way along with the Nike contract which someone had to run off on a tangent about his hero... but you knew that..right?

Heediot
04-03-2017, 11:02 AM
How many NBA superstars today would win if they had:

1) The greatest perimeter defender who can get you 20/6/6
2) The greatest rebounder/one of the greatest defenders as well
3) The most winning coach of all-time

Yeah Jordan had better help on defense and better coaching. I can agree to that. On the flip side LeBron had/has just as much offensive help as Jordan had defensive help.



Some of you have short-term memory and forget that it was Pippen who led the Bulls in rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in all of their six rings together. But yeah, Jordan "did it all" for them. Please tell me how Jordan wins with a knee-hobbled Wade+a Bosh who gets outrebounded by Roy Hibbert? You guys wanna know why Roy Hibbert was so hyped? Cause he dominated Bosh. And so did good ole KG, Timmy D, Al jefferson, and "Joke"im Noah. Literally, out of all their matchups in the playoffs, Bosh only dominated Carlos Snoozer. We can go through the numbers and I can guarantee you Bosh was not a top player. He might have looked good with the Raptors but Kevin Love looked good with the Wolves too. Some of you pretend that Jordan won when he had his best seasons.. except he didn't. He lost and lost in his best seasons. So the one thing that changed was:

I personally think they both had help to win their titles. It's just Jordan can elevate his team/system to a higher level vs. LeBron. Outside of Jordan and Phil's triangle/system, guys like Kukoc, Longley, Pippen, BJ Armstrong, have shown to be a worse player. Rodman and Grant were more defensive oriented so that translates pretty everywhere. Just like Popovich makes guys who don't belong in the league into usable role players (Bonner/Gary Neal/Oberto etc.). Jordan maximized what he had to work with better the James did/does IMO.





1) League got weaker.
2) He got a better team.

I don't think Jordan has beaten a team better than the 13 Spurs or 16 Warriors. Anyone know one? Hell, he probably hasn't beaten a better team than OKC, either. Kemp+GP?

League hasn't gotten weaker, it just evolved and rules changed. Big men were more impactful in Jordan's day. Nowadays it's a more space and pace, pick n roll league that caters to ball handler's and shooters on offense and high iq defenders (Gasol and Duncan don't need to be a swat machine or have be the most athletic to be one of the best rim protectors, they just to be smart). Jordan played in a time where big men flourished on offense, LeBron plays in a league where ball handlers flourish. I'm not going to discredit LeBron, but Jordan was unique in that he dominated in a time where there were fewer top 5/10 guys who weren't big men (Nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find more then one big man considered a top 10 player, and none in the top 5). The top players of the 90's were (MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Admiral, Ewing, Malone, Shaq, Stockton, Pippen, Drexler). the 5 spot dominated the top 10 owning 4 of the spots. Nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a 5 as a top 20 player (although I think Marc Gasol belongs, but many others may counter that).

It was harder to create super teams in Jordan's era because there was no cap on Max contracts, so there was more parity. Nowadays, with social media and guys playing together or against one another in the aau ranks, guys try to find ways to team up. I 'm not going to discredit Jordan for doing what he did with the structure of the league back then and I don't blame LeBron for taking advantage of the rules that cater to his skills. Rookie salaries were also uncapped in Jordan's time, you'd see guys picked high in the draft get paid more vs. seasoned vets who were borderline all-stars. LeBron James started the super team-up via FA trend, so there's that too.

Most of the stars back then were two-way players, nowadays, half of the top guys are average or worse on defense. Curry, Harden and Westbrook 3 of the top 6 players are average or worse on defense. LeBron and Durant are good only when they want to be. Kawhi is the only top dog who is consistently elite in that department. Back then being elite on both ends was more common as a top player. Barkley and Drexler were the two worse of the worse defenders in the 90s and Barkley could be competent if he was keyed in on it. But most of those other guys were above average or elite.

LeBron for his run to the finals has always been on teams with one of the highest payrolls and so there's that argument against him as well.


Not arguing LeBron vs Jordan but you guys are way too nostalgic. I guess marketing is one hell of a drug and Nike+McDonald's+NBA made you all eat it like a late night buffet.


I am not going to deny bias and nostalgia as a factor. I was born in 82 so i grew up with Jordan in his prime and was more gullible to his impact as a youth growing up. :p

WaDe03
04-03-2017, 11:37 AM
Are we going to act like Wade isn't better than both?

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 01:53 PM
Yeah Jordan had better help on defense and better coaching. I can agree to that. On the flip side LeBron had/has just as much offensive help as Jordan had defensive help.



I personally think they both had help to win their titles. It's just Jordan can elevate his team/system to a higher level vs. LeBron. Outside of Jordan and Phil's triangle/system, guys like Kukoc, Longley, Pippen, BJ Armstrong, have shown to be a worse player. Rodman and Grant were more defensive oriented so that translates pretty everywhere. Just like Popovich makes guys who don't belong in the league into usable role players (Bonner/Gary Neal/Oberto etc.). Jordan maximized what he had to work with better the James did/does IMO.





League hasn't gotten weaker, it just evolved and rules changed. Big men were more impactful in Jordan's day. Nowadays it's a more space and pace, pick n roll league that caters to ball handler's and shooters on offense and high iq defenders (Gasol and Duncan don't need to be a swat machine or have be the most athletic to be one of the best rim protectors, they just to be smart). Jordan played in a time where big men flourished on offense, LeBron plays in a league where ball handlers flourish. I'm not going to discredit LeBron, but Jordan was unique in that he dominated in a time where there were fewer top 5/10 guys who weren't big men (Nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find more then one big man considered a top 10 player, and none in the top 5). The top players of the 90's were (MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Admiral, Ewing, Malone, Shaq, Stockton, Pippen, Drexler). the 5 spot dominated the top 10 owning 4 of the spots. Nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a 5 as a top 20 player (although I think Marc Gasol belongs, but many others may counter that).

It was harder to create super teams in Jordan's era because there was no cap on Max contracts, so there was more parity. Nowadays, with social media and guys playing together or against one another in the aau ranks, guys try to find ways to team up. I 'm not going to discredit Jordan for doing what he did with the structure of the league back then and I don't blame LeBron for taking advantage of the rules that cater to his skills. Rookie salaries were also uncapped in Jordan's time, you'd see guys picked high in the draft get paid more vs. seasoned vets who were borderline all-stars. LeBron James started the super team-up via FA trend, so there's that too.

Most of the stars back then were two-way players, nowadays, half of the top guys are average or worse on defense. Curry, Harden and Westbrook 3 of the top 6 players are average or worse on defense. LeBron and Durant are good only when they want to be. Kawhi is the only top dog who is consistently elite in that department. Back then being elite on both ends was more common as a top player. Barkley and Drexler were the two worse of the worse defenders in the 90s and Barkley could be competent if he was keyed in on it. But most of those other guys were above average or elite.

LeBron for his run to the finals has always been on teams with one of the highest payrolls and so there's that argument against him as well.



I am not going to deny bias and nostalgia as a factor. I was born in 82 so i grew up with Jordan in his prime and was more gullible to his impact as a youth growing up. :p

1) Jordan had Pippen when Pippen was at his prime. Wade was hobbled after the first year together. You can argue James had a bit more offensive help but defensively? It was a no-brainer. I mean, they also had Horace Grant before Pippen. He was an All-NBA talent defender but he never gets any recognition. The fit of Pippen+Rodman is a better fit if you're a ball-dominant player. Do you think Kobe+knee-ridden Wade+Bosh are better than Kobe+Pippen+Rodman?
2) Explain how Jordan maximized their abilities better than LeBron. How did he do that?
3) And guards back then weren't as great as they are now. For Christ's sake, the SF and SG position was insanely weak in Jordan's time. The fact that Reggie Miller was probably the best SG in the East is indicative of how weak it is. Nowadays, SF's would be guarding/scoring against Jordan. That would be KD, Kawhi, PG, Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Klay. It's just more talent at that position. You also don't take into account that the zoning changes made it completely different. No longer can Jordan abuse a player 1-on-1 and get into the paint easily. Jordan was never a great shooter and most of his baskets were at the paint.

But I think the biggest point is that Jordan had the better team heading to the Finals and the opposition he played against weren't at the level the Spurs/Warriors were at. I don't think they were even at OKC's level. Kemp+Payton? C'mon... You're telling me LeBron+Rodman+Pippen don't sweep those guys? I can't imagine a scenario where James loses with the teams Jordan had in the Finals.

europagnpilgrim
04-03-2017, 11:31 PM
1) Lebron isn't making that money because of a salary cap.. everyone knows he's worth way more than what he's getting paid now.. dummy..
2) bringing up Wilt's inflated stats.. you are a clown. You thinking he can average a quintuple double in today's league is probably the laughable part.. when you account for his production on a per possession basis, he's as good as Shaq was.
3) Oh ya.. Wilt was the one who saved the NBA.. Must be why NBA suffered terrible ratings and attendance and then had to introduce the three point line, right? another case of you being delusional.
4) there will never be a league in which there is top competition every night.. name me a sport that has been the case. the point is, the players today and systems in-tact are far more advanced than when wilt played and all they did was dribble the ball and hand it to the closest man in the basket. it's far more different, silly grandpa.
5) Back then, players played and still had a part-time job because NBA was paying so little due to the fact that it was not as popular as the bigger sports.. aka, a lot of the better talent couldn't play basketball because the opportunities weren't there. Also, the talent wasn't there because most were still being racially profiled.. which is why you saw so many white players compared to today in which the consensus is that blacks are better than whites at basketball.. you are a total clown. you probably think jesse owens is better at track than Usain Bolt too.. how about you get some facts.. saying Wilt put up 50/30 and whatever else you say is only impressive when you're playing against the best competition. and it's funny how Wilt only has 2x championships (only 1 without mr. west).. if he put up those numbers, how come he couldn't win more? why couldn't he dominate Bill? LMAO, I love your excuses for Wilt Chamberlain. They said Wilt has had sex with thousands of women... are you one of them?
6) Weakest era of basketball? funny considering most would associate that with Wilt's era.. idiot..

1. Players were making around 5-6k before Wilt came and ****ed the game up you big dummy because he was that dominant and knew his worth was what owners were paying to own a team back then while Lebron tries to make up for it with off court endorsements but if he was really that dominant he would have ****ed the game up during the last CBA but he isn't in Wilts league to up the ante like that

2. Once again I bring up his actual factual stats, Lebron has inflated stats as well, especially when you look at how Heat got blown out in 14' against the Spurs at a record margin (or 38ppg vs. the Magic in 09'), his 28ppg and whatever else stats were heavily inflated since they got blown off the court, Wilt would easily avg. whatever he chose to avg. or what his team needed him to avg., just like his coach told him to put up 50ppg that season and play every minute of every game, that's what dominant players do for the team if called upon, similar to how Lebron went crazy in that 07' series when his team needed him to do that but I will call his numbers inflated for that game using your strategy(flawed thinking), you big ole dummy(Sanford&Son)

3. you must be talking about the 70's era as a whole because the NBA was about to close the door until Wilt start putting up crazy numbers to bring the attraction back(at his owners request to score big), that 62' season saved the nba to move forward rather you like it or not, if facts are delusional count me in

4. Because the new owners/age is all about the dollar(more clutter of teams) that's why it wont be top notch competition every night but like I said if it were 10-16 teams it would be top notch comp pretty much every game, the more the teams the weaker the product becomes, its like if you run a music company and you have 4-5 multi platinum acts then you go and sign like 15-20 new acts it will water down your product/company at a high degree, if you cant see that then you are in denial like a mofo, pretty soon you are going to see professional nba teams in London/China to make it even more weaker, its the reason why Universal really only focuses on a number of acts while the rest sit on the shelf/bench and never put out a album, if you cant understand that basic concept life is not for you, try something else, become a vegetable

5. That was because of how little the pay was but the league had the best talent possible for that era, like Russell told Jordan about Paxson wouldn't have hit that jumper for him back in that day because Paxson wouldn't have been on the team so Jordan wouldn't have won his 6 rings back then as he stated, Jordan was left without words afterwards, now you know Wilt was on a whole nother level to get that type of pay that he did back then, the league is cluttered today with Euro/white players galore who basically just shoot a bunch of 3's and nothing else, therefore making the league even weaker since its more in abundance, just taking up roster spots because of how many damn teams are in the league, Wilt did it against the best of his time and nobody has matched his game in and out stats since, I never have mentioned Wilt and the women because it has nothing to do with what he did on the court, that's the thing you big ole dummy, I keep mentioning what he actually factually did on the hardwood and you keep thinking they are excuses because you cant wrap your ignorant brain around the myth like production he did, but you are quick to bring up Lebron production in this small ball/3pt era, Lebron had a shirt that said ''Look at my Stats''(or something like that) and as soon as I mention stats that your boyfriend cherishes you get butthurt that another player could put up numbers that dwarf his, every sport has been jacked up money wise compared to back then, and players today need a side job since they can run through money at a all time rate, been plenty of millionaires today gone broke before they retire unless they invest wisely during and after career, which is rare because of todays temptations/thieves

Bill Russell and the Celtics won 11 titles(8peat) which is the most dominant stretch in team sports history and Wilt didn't have the teammates surrounding him prior to 67', then when he gets proper teammates they wipe the Celtics out in 5 games and blew a 3-1 lead the next season due to injuries, then as a old man he goes to the Lakers and went to like 5 or so Finals, and he put up a 62pt game and also a 55 rebound game vs. Russell, and for his career head to head with I guess over like 100 matchups he avg 28ppg and 28rpg, you are one funny comedian, and how come Lebron don't have more than 3 rings? he isn't in a era where a team has even 3peated let alone 8 in a row or even 6 out of 8 like Jordan did, he has to beat out East a musical chair list of teams with the only legit contender being Boston(old/injured by the time he teamed up with Miami) and couldn't beat them when they first formed, Chicago/Indiana/Hawks/Raptors, his only true competition is out West and we all seen how that has turned out, Ray Allen 3pt shot and Warriors injury/Dray being Dray or he could possibly have less rings than Wilt at this time, now switch young Wilt to the Lakers with Baylor/West and Russell doesn't have 11 rings, facts

Wilt use to take those stacked Celtics teams to mostly 7 games and it would come down to last possession for most part because he was that individually dominant, "Havlicek steals the ball", does that ring a bell? it came against Wilt in the playoffs who had a chance to win that game(and probably the series)

each year Lebron had to deal with a pretender out East especially when he went to Miami, nothing that gave you the sense of a rivalry/tough team outside of that Celtics matchup, and the Celtics were running on fumes and blew a 3-2 league until Lebron had to channel his inner Wilt and put up that monster game to force game 7, Wilt put up numbers like that on cruise control

Russell said Wilt is a 'total monster' and admitted he couldn't stop Wilt and he guarded him 5 different ways and admitted that he would hope Wilt kept shooting his fadeaway to make it easier for him, Wilt had to face the entire Celtics team on defense, not just Russell who is arguably the best defender ever

6. Weakest era has been associated with this era by the players who played in the 80's/90's/early 00's, HOF'ers galore have spoken on this publicly but you are probably hiding in your cave somewhere and missed the boat, this is the'' rest while healthy era'', soft as pudding


and as I stated to people around my way months ago if your boyfriend don't talk to his buddy TT about that Kardashian curse and cut her loose Cleveland will be lucky to get out of the East, and for sure wont win the title, 20-20(or close) in last 40 games, but you will make an excuse for that and say Lebron is just waiting for the playoffs

europagnpilgrim
04-03-2017, 11:54 PM
1) Lebron isn't making that money because of a salary cap.. everyone knows he's worth way more than what he's getting paid now.. dummy..
2) bringing up Wilt's inflated stats.. you are a clown. You thinking he can average a quintuple double in today's league is probably the laughable part.. when you account for his production on a per possession basis, he's as good as Shaq was.
3) Oh ya.. Wilt was the one who saved the NBA.. Must be why NBA suffered terrible ratings and attendance and then had to introduce the three point line, right? another case of you being delusional.
4) there will never be a league in which there is top competition every night.. name me a sport that has been the case. the point is, the players today and systems in-tact are far more advanced than when wilt played and all they did was dribble the ball and hand it to the closest man in the basket. it's far more different, silly grandpa.
5) Back then, players played and still had a part-time job because NBA was paying so little due to the fact that it was not as popular as the bigger sports.. aka, a lot of the better talent couldn't play basketball because the opportunities weren't there. Also, the talent wasn't there because most were still being racially profiled.. which is why you saw so many white players compared to today in which the consensus is that blacks are better than whites at basketball.. you are a total clown. you probably think jesse owens is better at track than Usain Bolt too.. how about you get some facts.. saying Wilt put up 50/30 and whatever else you say is only impressive when you're playing against the best competition. and it's funny how Wilt only has 2x championships (only 1 without mr. west).. if he put up those numbers, how come he couldn't win more? why couldn't he dominate Bill? LMAO, I love your excuses for Wilt Chamberlain. They said Wilt has had sex with thousands of women... are you one of them?
6) Weakest era of basketball? funny considering most would associate that with Wilt's era.. idiot..

https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM - educate yourself, self education its the best way to go

IKnowHoops
04-04-2017, 03:44 AM
1) Jordan had Pippen when Pippen was at his prime. Wade was hobbled after the first year together. You can argue James had a bit more offensive help but defensively? It was a no-brainer. I mean, they also had Horace Grant before Pippen. He was an All-NBA talent defender but he never gets any recognition. The fit of Pippen+Rodman is a better fit if you're a ball-dominant player. Do you think Kobe+knee-ridden Wade+Bosh are better than Kobe+Pippen+Rodman?
2) Explain how Jordan maximized their abilities better than LeBron. How did he do that?
3) And guards back then weren't as great as they are now. For Christ's sake, the SF and SG position was insanely weak in Jordan's time. The fact that Reggie Miller was probably the best SG in the East is indicative of how weak it is. Nowadays, SF's would be guarding/scoring against Jordan. That would be KD, Kawhi, PG, Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Klay. It's just more talent at that position. You also don't take into account that the zoning changes made it completely different. No longer can Jordan abuse a player 1-on-1 and get into the paint easily. Jordan was never a great shooter and most of his baskets were at the paint.

But I think the biggest point is that Jordan had the better team heading to the Finals and the opposition he played against weren't at the level the Spurs/Warriors were at. I don't think they were even at OKC's level. Kemp+Payton? C'mon... You're telling me LeBron+Rodman+Pippen don't sweep those guys? I can't imagine a scenario where James loses with the teams Jordan had in the Finals.

At one point the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best sgs in the league were.

Latrell Sprewell
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond

Knick bag
04-04-2017, 10:09 AM
[/b]

besides the 6 championships he also has 6 finals mvp's... Something lebron will never achieve.

1. Defensive player of the year

2. Billion dollar brand name

3. A college education

4. acceptance that he was going bald.

these are a few things lebron will never achieve.

im dead!!!!!!!!

WaDe03
04-04-2017, 10:18 AM
im dead!!!!!!!!

Did you come back to life to post this?

Knick bag
04-04-2017, 10:22 AM
Comparing Lebron and MJ is a non starter. Jordan is 6-0 in the finals, 6 finals MVPs, more clutch, never even played a game 7 in the finals. They are not the same kind of player. MJ was always a cold blooded killer, Lebron wanted to pass the ball. Jordan never joined other superstar players or quit in a playoff series. Pippen was drafted and only became as good as he did because MJ made him. MJ would have won 7, 8, 9 more rings in a row if he hadn't retired early or if krause had not broke up the team. Lebron is dominant in his own way. Not taking anything from him but he will never, ever be anywhere close to Jordan. Lebron may end up losing more finals than Jordan won. GOAT?? just stop already. Smh

Knick bag
04-04-2017, 10:25 AM
Did you come back to life to post this?

lololol. Yup and to comment on the obscene bromance taking place in this thread. Unreal

TheDish87
04-04-2017, 10:59 AM
some of you have way too much time on your hands

FlashBolt
04-04-2017, 06:51 PM
Comparing Lebron and MJ is a non starter. Jordan is 6-0 in the finals, 6 finals MVPs, more clutch, never even played a game 7 in the finals. They are not the same kind of player. MJ was always a cold blooded killer, Lebron wanted to pass the ball. Jordan never joined other superstar players or quit in a playoff series. Pippen was drafted and only became as good as he did because MJ made him. MJ would have won 7, 8, 9 more rings in a row if he hadn't retired early or if krause had not broke up the team. Lebron is dominant in his own way. Not taking anything from him but he will never, ever be anywhere close to Jordan. Lebron may end up losing more finals than Jordan won. GOAT?? just stop already. Smh

1) Magic also passed the ball.. the best play is the guy who has the open shot. Funny how Kobe was labeled a ballhog for not passing it but MJ is the GOAT when clutch statistics show he's not as clutch as you imagine him to be. MJ is lucky there wasn't YouTube around to check all his missed shots..
2) 6-0 in the Finals because he had vastly superior talent on his team.
3) Never played a finals game 7 because again, vastly superior team. Who the hell thought Barkley or Kemp+GP takes them to 7 games? LMAO... LeBron sweeps a few of those teams Jordan played against.
4) Never joined other superstar players because he had superstar players on his team already... never quit in a playoff series? You have zero evidence LeBron did other than a few bad performances.
5) LOL.. pippen only became great because of MJ. Yeah, Pippen became so great that he led the bulls in rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks while being their best perimeter defender in their six rings together..
6) Hypothetical situations.. LeBron would have more rings if he had a better team too. Hobbled Wade+Bosh were a no-show after year 1. Kyrie+Love were injured in their first Finals.. LeBron would have more for sure but Jordan had BOTH rodman and Pippen at their prime..
7) MJ was always a cold blooded killer? Okay.. so where was this cold blooded killer assassin before Pippen came along?
8) You can't say LeBron has more Finals losses than Jordan when Jordan would have had more Finals losses had he lost in the earlier stages of his career. The fact is, Jordan didn't carry his team to the Finals so he never lost in the Finals. It wasn't until Pippen came along and teams like the Pistons/Celtics/Lakers (three teams that at their prime, would have certainly challenged the Bulls at their prime) deteriorated that MJ started winning. Funny how those three iconic teams then became the Suns/Blazers/Knicks and you're trying to act like MJ went through the GOAT teams.. none of the teams Jordan beat were historically great teams...

Heediot
04-12-2017, 12:16 PM
1) Jordan had Pippen when Pippen was at his prime. Wade was hobbled after the first year together. You can argue James had a bit more offensive help but defensively? It was a no-brainer. I mean, they also had Horace Grant before Pippen. He was an All-NBA talent defender but he never gets any recognition. The fit of Pippen+Rodman is a better fit if you're a ball-dominant player. Do you think Kobe+knee-ridden Wade+Bosh are better than Kobe+Pippen+Rodman?
2) Explain how Jordan maximized their abilities better than LeBron. How did he do that?
3) And guards back then weren't as great as they are now. For Christ's sake, the SF and SG position was insanely weak in Jordan's time. The fact that Reggie Miller was probably the best SG in the East is indicative of how weak it is. Nowadays, SF's would be guarding/scoring against Jordan. That would be KD, Kawhi, PG, Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Klay. It's just more talent at that position. You also don't take into account that the zoning changes made it completely different. No longer can Jordan abuse a player 1-on-1 and get into the paint easily. Jordan was never a great shooter and most of his baskets were at the paint.

But I think the biggest point is that Jordan had the better team heading to the Finals and the opposition he played against weren't at the level the Spurs/Warriors were at. I don't think they were even at OKC's level. Kemp+Payton? C'mon... You're telling me LeBron+Rodman+Pippen don't sweep those guys? I can't imagine a scenario where James loses with the teams Jordan had in the Finals.

Rules matter. Back in the 90's perimeter players had less space to work with because you could body up a guy. It was easier to stay in front of guys cramping their space and forcing them to work harder for buckets. In today's game a guy like Derozan can light it up in the regular season with these soft perimeter defensive rules, but when the playoffs come and defenses tighten up and refs allow for more physical play you see him struggle and his shot making ability decreases. Playoff basketball is about players who can score in tight spaces and ball movement to create easier looks. It's more imperative in the playoffs because the dynamics on defense and the focused coaching on taking the opponents strengths heighten in a 7 game series. On defense in today's playoffs it's about cramping up a team's space, the Cavs did a good job of that against GS and their ball movement offense. The Heat when they lost to the Spurs in James last year got toast by SA's ball movement and San Antonio cramped up LeBron's space by clogging the lane and forcing him to beat them from mid-range and beyond. What made Jordan so special was his ability to operate in tight spaces back in the 90's. Big men were more dominant back then because post play was the best way to score in tight spaces, and if doubled shooters got easier looks. Jordan had the patented fade away that was unguardable, if he saw the help coming he knew how to dish/move the ball to get easier looks for his shooters. Jordan could face up up and take you off the dribble, drive past you and get to the lane or post you up. It was pick your poison with him. The Spurs/Pops would have a harder time game planning for Jordan because he was more skilled and versatile from the mid-range. If you clogged the paint Jordan would find a way to work around that, he would probably post up his man forcing the defense to change a d when they change he would counter with another move. In the regualr season Jordan would still smoke it. If Derozan can get 27-28 PPG with his weak shooting/ball handling/defense/passing, I don't see how Jordan can't get 30 plus consistently as he always did even without the 3 point game if folks want to use that against him.

Both guys have/had enough help and shouldn't have excuses in that department. Jordan had great defensive help and great coaching. LeBron has had one of the best 2nd and third options in both Miami and recently Cleveland on offense. Both guys were surrounded by shooters. LeBron had more bench help. Kukoc was the only guy off the Bench that was a threat the rest were guys like Kerr, Buechler, Randy Brown, Dickey, Wennington.

The game was different back then for guards and the roles were typically different. It was more a mid-range dominated game on the perimeter. PG's were more about bringing up the ball and getting the offense rolling. Offenses tended to be more inside out compared to now. Big men were groomed to play with their back to the basket and defensively there was less switching. Nowadays for big men to dominate on offense versatility must be developed (AD, Cousins, Jokic). Perimeter guys needed more skill to get their shot off off the dribble compared to now.

Jordan's maximized Phil's system better then LeBron in Miami/Cleveland, just as Curry maximized Kerr's system better then LeBron. They all had help but with Curry and Jordan the team's were more efficient and cohesive.
Jordan won his 2nd three peat with a veteran team that had crazy chemistry and a guy that could close games (Himself). Just because your team is cohesive doesn't mean there is more talent. The Spurs to me have always been overrated by people in terms of talent, it's just Pops knows how to make use of his players whereas a guy like Doc Rivers can't develop talent for ****. When you look at how the player's that played in the Bulls system did outside of the system, there is a clue to the answer you seek.

Jordan was a high flyer earlier in his career, his mid range game became more money in his prime and when he aged. He adapted his game to the abuse he was getting driving to the lane too much, but MJ was a killer in the mid-range. The game was far more mid-range oriented for perimeter guys back then.

Today's pace and space in overrated for the playoffs. Teams have better metrics because that style is catered to for the regular season with the lack of contact and soft whistles allowed. Teams may seem stronger, but in the playoffs it comes down to defending, chemistry, and teams that make the clutch plays. Jordan never lost the finals as a favorite, but I do agree that the Warriors are the best team out of all the finals opponents both guys had.

FlashBolt
04-12-2017, 01:06 PM
Rules matter. Back in the 90's perimeter players had less space to work with because you could body up a guy. It was easier to stay in front of guys cramping their space and forcing them to work harder for buckets. In today's game a guy like Derozan can light it up in the regular season with these soft perimeter defensive rules, but when the playoffs come and defenses tighten up and refs allow for more physical play you see him struggle and his shot making ability decreases. Playoff basketball is about players who can score in tight spaces and ball movement to create easier looks. It's more imperative in the playoffs because the dynamics on defense and the focused coaching on taking the opponents strengths heighten in a 7 game series. On defense in today's playoffs it's about cramping up a team's space, the Cavs did a good job of that against GS and their ball movement offense. The Heat when they lost to the Spurs in James last year got toast by SA's ball movement and San Antonio cramped up LeBron's space by clogging the lane and forcing him to beat them from mid-range and beyond. What made Jordan so special was his ability to operate in tight spaces back in the 90's. Big men were more dominant back then because post play was the best way to score in tight spaces, and if doubled shooters got easier looks. Jordan had the patented fade away that was unguardable, if he saw the help coming he knew how to dish/move the ball to get easier looks for his shooters. Jordan could face up up and take you off the dribble, drive past you and get to the lane or post you up. It was pick your poison with him. The Spurs/Pops would have a harder time game planning for Jordan because he was more skilled and versatile from the mid-range. If you clogged the paint Jordan would find a way to work around that, he would probably post up his man forcing the defense to change a d when they change he would counter with another move. In the regualr season Jordan would still smoke it. If Derozan can get 27-28 PPG with his weak shooting/ball handling/defense/passing, I don't see how Jordan can't get 30 plus consistently as he always did even without the 3 point game if folks want to use that against him.

Both guys have/had enough help and shouldn't have excuses in that department. Jordan had great defensive help and great coaching. LeBron has had one of the best 2nd and third options in both Miami and recently Cleveland on offense. Both guys were surrounded by shooters. LeBron had more bench help. Kukoc was the only guy off the Bench that was a threat the rest were guys like Kerr, Buechler, Randy Brown, Dickey, Wennington.

The game was different back then for guards and the roles were typically different. It was more a mid-range dominated game on the perimeter. PG's were more about bringing up the ball and getting the offense rolling. Offenses tended to be more inside out compared to now. Big men were groomed to play with their back to the basket and defensively there was less switching. Nowadays for big men to dominate on offense versatility must be developed (AD, Cousins, Jokic). Perimeter guys needed more skill to get their shot off off the dribble compared to now.

Jordan's maximized Phil's system better then LeBron in Miami/Cleveland, just as Curry maximized Kerr's system better then LeBron. They all had help but with Curry and Jordan the team's were more efficient and cohesive.
Jordan won his 2nd three peat with a veteran team that had crazy chemistry and a guy that could close games (Himself). Just because your team is cohesive doesn't mean there is more talent. The Spurs to me have always been overrated by people in terms of talent, it's just Pops knows how to make use of his players whereas a guy like Doc Rivers can't develop talent for ****. When you look at how the player's that played in the Bulls system did outside of the system, there is a clue to the answer you seek.

Jordan was a high flyer earlier in his career, his mid range game became more money in his prime and when he aged. He adapted his game to the abuse he was getting driving to the lane too much, but MJ was a killer in the mid-range. The game was far more mid-range oriented for perimeter guys back then.

Today's pace and space in overrated for the playoffs. Teams have better metrics because that style is catered to for the regular season with the lack of contact and soft whistles allowed. Teams may seem stronger, but in the playoffs it comes down to defending, chemistry, and teams that make the clutch plays. Jordan never lost the finals as a favorite, but I do agree that the Warriors are the best team out of all the finals opponents both guys had.

Yeah, but I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove here. You act as if DeRozan is a bum and that he'll only score in this generation. He's probably better than Reggie, you know? All I'm reading is, "Jordan will find a way to do this or that." Okay, and LeBron would find a way to do "this or that" as well. You're not offering any counterarguments against those points I made.

Jordan had a stacked team. People seem to think he beat the best of the best. Which NBA Finals team that he beat was a legendary historic team?
Pippen led in rebounds/assists/steals/blocks in all their six rings (for the playoffs). If Kyrie or Wade had led in those respective categories, everyone would be bashing LeBron.
There's more opposition at Jordan's position. The SF = SG = PG these days so Jordan would have to be playing against the best at those positions. Who did he go up against? C'mon, outside Reggie and Drexler, there was minimal opposition. And you argued that LeBron has had a better bench. I'm not sure what brought you the conclusion that LeBron's bench were superior. Jordan's starters was so top-heavy and significantly better than the league that the bench became almost irrelevant. Jordan+Pippen+Rodman. That's three HOF's at their prime. Some teams were lucky to have ONE.

Heediot
04-12-2017, 01:27 PM
Yeah, but I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove here. You act as if DeRozan is a bum and that he'll only score in this generation. He's probably better than Reggie, you know? All I'm reading is, "Jordan will find a way to do this or that." Okay, and LeBron would find a way to do "this or that" as well. You're not offering any counterarguments against those points I made.

Jordan had a stacked team. People seem to think he beat the best of the best. Which NBA Finals team that he beat was a legendary historic team?
Pippen led in rebounds/assists/steals/blocks in all their six rings (for the playoffs). If Kyrie or Wade had led in those respective categories, everyone would be bashing LeBron.
There's more opposition at Jordan's position. The SF = SG = PG these days so Jordan would have to be playing against the best at those positions. Who did he go up against? C'mon, outside Reggie and Drexler, there was minimal opposition. And you argued that LeBron has had a better bench. I'm not sure what brought you the conclusion that LeBron's bench were superior. Jordan's starters was so top-heavy and significantly better than the league that the bench became almost irrelevant. Jordan+Pippen+Rodman. That's three HOF's at their prime. Some teams were lucky to have ONE.

OK, he didn't beat any historic teams I'll concede to that but he didn't lose as the finals favorite either.

On his last three peat Jordan wasn't in his prime neither was Rodman. They just had the iq and skills to adapt as they aged. The last three peat was a veteran laden squad like the Spurs that beat the Heat.

The point is both guys have excuses by their followers. Like Pilgrim pointed out, when Jordan's help didn't show up in the finals, he still won. The excuses work both ways.

If you don't think the rules are slanted for perimeter guys to excel, especially ballhandlers your missing something. Throughout NBA history the scoring leaderboard have been spread around, nowadays it's slanted towards perimeter guys and primary ballhandlers. Yes Reggie is better then Derozan, and if he played in this era his stats would be inflated because the game caters to his game and a guy like Mark price. Derozan sucks at shooting, sucks at defending, sucks at passing, sucks at ball handling. The only thing he got better at each year is getting to the line and shooting with a guy in his face in the regular season. he gets exposed in the playoffs consistently when real defense is allowed. I live in Toronto so i am exposed to his game alot.

It's all good though, I have my biases toward MJ, you like to defend LeBron. Let's leave it at that.