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View Full Version : MVP: How much should defense weigh into the equation?



JasonJohnHorn
03-28-2017, 09:34 PM
The definition of MVP changes not only form generation to generation, but from year to year.

The best stats? The best player? The guy who is most important to his team's success? The best player on the best team?

Harden recently said "Playing in all games should matter" for MVP, but he wasn't advocating for defense being a big factor. Given that is about half the time the player is on the court, the logical conclusion should be that defense should count for about 50% of the equation, but we all know that won't happen.

So how much should defense weigh into the equation? We've see truly dominant offensive players who are a liability on defense win the MVP award any number of times (Nash and Iverson come to mind as the most recent), but very seldom does a truly dominant defensive player who is a liability on offense with the award. The last time a guy (outside of a point guard) who averaged less than 20 points a game won MPV was Bill Walton in 1978, and even he was a stellar offensive player in his own way, though limited. The only incompetent offensive player to win the award was likely Wes Unseld in 1969, when they didn't even have a DPOY award.


Jordan and Hakeem are the only two players to win both awards in the same season. Is it time that defense be a bigger factors and we add another name to that list? Or should the MVP primarily be an offensive award with some consideration given to defense?

lol, please
03-28-2017, 09:58 PM
Defense is a big deal, and to be frank, could be why Harden doesn't win it.

tredigs
03-28-2017, 10:49 PM
Defense is a big deal, and to be frank, could be why Harden doesn't win it.

Seeing as the other top candidates outside of Kawhi are Westbrook, Lebron and IT I don't think he has much to worry about. None of them have been any better defensively than he has.

cmellofan15
03-28-2017, 11:38 PM
Only matters as much as it affects the team in the win-loss column

LA_Raiders
03-29-2017, 01:06 AM
The MVP better play good defense in my opinion. Harden is very lazy on D, he is not a MVP.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2017, 01:28 AM
Seeing as the other top candidates outside of Kawhi are Westbrook, Lebron and IT I don't think he has much to worry about. None of them have been any better defensively than he has.

I disagree.. Harden is IT bad but he is still bad... I think Everyone you mentioned is better at defense but it doesnt show as much because the rockets are just out scoring teams... Harden is still a **** defender and nobody that plays that poorly on 1 side of the ball should be MVP... He isnt worldy bad like he was but he is still bad... His offense will save him but I still think both bron/westy/durtant if not for the injuries would be ahead of him.... I also think KL is ahead of him....

Right now it would be to me

KL/Westy
Durant/LBJ/Harden... Westy isnt a great defender but he is still a better defender than harden... If Durant doesnt get injured he would be the top of my list with westy and KL and Lebron.

Jeffy25
03-29-2017, 02:18 AM
It should be equally as important. A point saved is equal to a point created

Supreme LA
03-29-2017, 02:34 AM
None. How else does that explain Nash being a back to back MVP.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2017, 03:28 AM
None. How else does that explain Nash being a back to back MVP.

and that is why harden seems more valuable then he is... the dantoni system run and gun... it works until you play a very good team in a 7 game series... Harden is great but he is still a **** defender the team is just running and outscoring the bad defense and banking on missed shots and just careless turnovers over relying on actual defense.

ewing
03-29-2017, 06:29 AM
there isn't an equation.

Scoots
03-29-2017, 08:29 AM
Defense should be a significant factor, but it's not half. If a player does NOT play defense the team defense will break down completely and that player should never be MVP, but there is a long way from being a great defender and being a willing defender who just doesn't have the physical traits to be a strong defender.

Pittz
03-29-2017, 08:34 AM
30%

ewing
03-29-2017, 08:50 AM
Defense should be a significant factor, but it's not half. If a player does NOT play defense the team defense will break down completely and that player should never be MVP, but there is a long way from being a great defender and being a willing defender who just doesn't have the physical traits to be a strong defender.

Fact is there are very few game changers on the defensive end. Rudy is a game changer, some guys are better then others, and some guys are great match ups but there aren't many guy are nightly game changers on that end


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mrblisterdundee
03-29-2017, 11:03 AM
I think defense should weigh in more than it does. Leonard, for instance, is probably the best two-way player in the league, if you add the value of his offensive and defensive presence. If he hadn't got injured, Durant would have been deserving too. Even with his string bean body, he's been one of the best rim protectors in the league, while still being just as deadly on offense.

KnicksorBust
03-29-2017, 11:23 AM
James Harden - 11 offensive win shares (#1 in the NBA)
Rudy Gobert - 5.5 defensive win shares (#1 in the NBA)

Bradley Beal - 6.3 offensive win shares (#20 in the NBA)
Trevor Ariza - 3.1 defensive win shares (#20 in the NBA)

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 12:59 PM
individually, defense just doesn't matter as much as offense. Meaning, an individual player can't impact a game on the defensive end, as much as he can on the offensive end.

For as bad, or average Harden/Westbrook are defensively, their offensive contributions so far outweigh the defensive negatives, it just doesn't matter. Not everyone can be a dominant 2 way player. And if you gave Leonard the game in, game out, possession by possession responsibility that Harden/Westbrook have, I just can't see him having the same impact defensively he has now. I know the offense flows through Leonard, but he isn't THE offense. LeBron was able to handle both sides when he was much younger, but LeBron is a top 5 player ever. These guys aren't..

I am an MJ is #1 guy, but his defense is overrated, in the aspect that he didn't get asked to be an all world defender 82 games a year and playoffs. It's like people forget there was an even better defender on his roster at the wing position or something.

Scoots
03-29-2017, 02:26 PM
individually, defense just doesn't matter as much as offense. Meaning, an individual player can't impact a game on the defensive end, as much as he can on the offensive end.

For as bad, or average Harden/Westbrook are defensively, their offensive contributions so far outweigh the defensive negatives, it just doesn't matter. Not everyone can be a dominant 2 way player. And if you gave Leonard the game in, game out, possession by possession responsibility that Harden/Westbrook have, I just can't see him having the same impact defensively he has now. I know the offense flows through Leonard, but he isn't THE offense. LeBron was able to handle both sides when he was much younger, but LeBron is a top 5 player ever. These guys aren't..

I am an MJ is #1 guy, but his defense is overrated, in the aspect that he didn't get asked to be an all world defender 82 games a year and playoffs. It's like people forget there was an even better defender on his roster at the wing position or something.

I agree with all of that, but an MVP can not be a nothing on D ... they have to TRY.

rhino17
03-29-2017, 02:57 PM
I agree with all of that, but an MVP can not be a nothing on D ... they have to TRY.

Steve Nash was the worst defender in the entire NBA for close to a decade and still won 2 mvps

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 03:40 PM
I agree with all of that, but an MVP can not be a nothing on D ... they have to TRY.

Nash and Dirk won MVP's.

FOXHOUND
03-29-2017, 04:24 PM
To be fair to Nash, he was annually among the league leaders in charges drawn. He wasn't a good defender, but anyone who claims he didn't try is spouting falsehoods.

To the thread, offense is more valuable than defense for individual players. If it wasn't, Rudy Gobert would be able to dominate someway remotely close to Westbrook and Harden. The ones who can dominate on both ends *cough* Kawhi Leonard *cough* are the most valuable.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 04:36 PM
To be fair to Nash, he was annually among the league leaders in charges drawn. He wasn't a good defender, but anyone who claims he didn't try is spouting falsehoods.

To the thread, offense is more valuable than defense for individual players. If it wasn't, Rudy Gobert would be able to dominate someway remotely close to Westbrook and Harden. The ones who can dominate on both ends *cough* Kawhi Leonard *cough* are the most valuable.

right, that was exactly my argument too.

ewing
03-29-2017, 04:54 PM
James Harden - 11 offensive win shares (#1 in the NBA)
Rudy Gobert - 5.5 defensive win shares (#1 in the NBA)

Bradley Beal - 6.3 offensive win shares (#20 in the NBA)
Trevor Ariza - 3.1 defensive win shares (#20 in the NBA)


look at this guy trying to make an equation. You're good knickorbust. You are good

FOXHOUND
03-29-2017, 05:12 PM
right, that was exactly my argument too.

Aye, and you made it well. :D

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2017, 05:13 PM
The definition of MVP changes not only form generation to generation, but from year to year.

The best stats? The best player? The guy who is most important to his team's success? The best player on the best team?

Harden recently said "Playing in all games should matter" for MVP, but he wasn't advocating for defense being a big factor. Given that is about half the time the player is on the court, the logical conclusion should be that defense should count for about 50% of the equation, but we all know that won't happen.

So how much should defense weigh into the equation? We've see truly dominant offensive players who are a liability on defense win the MVP award any number of times (Nash and Iverson come to mind as the most recent), but very seldom does a truly dominant defensive player who is a liability on offense with the award. The last time a guy (outside of a point guard) who averaged less than 20 points a game won MPV was Bill Walton in 1978, and even he was a stellar offensive player in his own way, though limited. The only incompetent offensive player to win the award was likely Wes Unseld in 1969, when they didn't even have a DPOY award.


Jordan and Hakeem are the only two players to win both awards in the same season. Is it time that defense be a bigger factors and we add another name to that list? Or should the MVP primarily be an offensive award with some consideration given to defense?

Leading the league 3 straight times in steals per game doesn't make you a liability, more like a asset
Leading the league in blocks doesn't make you a liability on defense, more like a anchor
Leading the league in deflections doesn't make you a liability on defense, more like causing chaos/turnovers

and how can you leave off Curry on that note in most recent memory of mvp winners who don't play really no D(mvp level)?

go look up any player to lead the league in steals per game multiple times and I bet they were decent to good defenders

defense does matter but just like how the league was built(and marketed) to score the offensive side will always mean more so it will factor more into who wins mvp and now add the team w-l record, why do you think they changed the rules to favor the offensive player in the past decade? its not about defense its about offensive explosions/entertainment and defense( outside of steals/blocks) is really just not that entertaining

Scoots
03-29-2017, 07:40 PM
To be fair to Nash, he was annually among the league leaders in charges drawn. He wasn't a good defender, but anyone who claims he didn't try is spouting falsehoods.

To the thread, offense is more valuable than defense for individual players. If it wasn't, Rudy Gobert would be able to dominate someway remotely close to Westbrook and Harden. The ones who can dominate on both ends *cough* Kawhi Leonard *cough* are the most valuable.

This. Nash was not built to play elite D ... too small, too slow, too slight. But he definitely tried. Dirk wasn't too interested in banging and didn't have the quick jump to be a good defensive big ... and he had some truly bad D, but in his MVP season he tried pretty hard.

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2017, 08:09 PM
individually, defense just doesn't matter as much as offense. Meaning, an individual player can't impact a game on the defensive end, as much as he can on the offensive end.

For as bad, or average Harden/Westbrook are defensively, their offensive contributions so far outweigh the defensive negatives, it just doesn't matter. Not everyone can be a dominant 2 way player. And if you gave Leonard the game in, game out, possession by possession responsibility that Harden/Westbrook have, I just can't see him having the same impact defensively he has now. I know the offense flows through Leonard, but he isn't THE offense. LeBron was able to handle both sides when he was much younger, but LeBron is a top 5 player ever. These guys aren't..

I am an MJ is #1 guy, but his defense is overrated, in the aspect that he didn't get asked to be an all world defender 82 games a year and playoffs. It's like people forget there was an even better defender on his roster at the wing position or something.

on point with this right here, I have been preaching this like forever

not only on the wing but Jordan had interior defenders where he didn't have to help much at all since Grant/Cartwright/Rodman could hold it down and Luc was a big massive body as well, and he had top notch hustle/play hard/ grind it out guys like Livingston/King/Bison etc.

ewing
03-29-2017, 08:17 PM
on point with this right here, I have been preaching this like forever

not only on the wing but Jordan had interior defenders where he didn't have to help much at all since Grant/Cartwright/Rodman could hold it down and Luc was a big massive body as well, and he had top notch hustle/play hard/ grind it out guys like Livingston/King/Bison etc.


you can't overstate the contributions of Cliff Livingston and Stacy King.

FlashBolt
03-29-2017, 09:24 PM
I think the Finals MVP should be the only MVP award available.

KnicksorBust
03-29-2017, 09:27 PM
James Harden - 11 offensive win shares (#1 in the NBA)
Rudy Gobert - 5.5 defensive win shares (#1 in the NBA)

Bradley Beal - 6.3 offensive win shares (#20 in the NBA)
Trevor Ariza - 3.1 defensive win shares (#20 in the NBA)


look at this guy trying to make an equation. You're good knickorbust. You are good

:laugh:

Jamiecballer
03-29-2017, 09:39 PM
50%

Raps18-19 Champ
03-29-2017, 10:48 PM
Whatever makes the most impact. I wouldn't punish a player for not playing defense nor would I reward a player extra for playing defense. If a player plays 0 defense but overall still make more impact simply with their offense than someone who plays defense/offense, then so be it. And usually, a player's offensive will be much more impactful than their individual defense.

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2017, 11:05 PM
you can't overstate the contributions of Cliff Livingston and Stacy King.

The legend of Cliff in that I think 91' Finals was valuable, especially for him and those two knew what they were there to do, be a spark/cheerleader and be ready when your number is called to do your job, true pros

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2017, 11:08 PM
To be fair to Nash, he was annually among the league leaders in charges drawn. He wasn't a good defender, but anyone who claims he didn't try is spouting falsehoods.

To the thread, offense is more valuable than defense for individual players. If it wasn't, Rudy Gobert would be able to dominate someway remotely close to Westbrook and Harden. The ones who can dominate on both ends *cough* Kawhi Leonard *cough* are the most valuable.

to be more fair Nash probably had 10pct legit charges and the rest were probably Divac/Ginobili type flop charges

Scoots
03-29-2017, 11:11 PM
Whatever makes the most impact. I wouldn't punish a player for not playing defense nor would I reward a player extra for playing defense. If a player plays 0 defense but overall still make more impact simply with their offense than someone who plays defense/offense, then so be it. And usually, a player's offensive will be much more impactful than their individual defense.

How are you going to measure "impact" objectively?

JasonJohnHorn
03-30-2017, 04:25 PM
30%

Great answer! Very exact! :-)

da ThRONe
03-31-2017, 08:42 AM
Defense matters more in terms player rankings than in individual awards.

ewing
03-31-2017, 08:46 AM
The legend of Cliff in that I think 91' Finals was valuable, especially for him and those two knew what they were there to do, be a spark/cheerleader and be ready when your number is called to do your job, true pros

cheerleading- the lost art

IndyRealist
03-31-2017, 09:36 AM
MVP has always been an offensively slanted award. The #1 contributing factor to MVP rankings is PPG, along with combined PPG/RPG/APG.

Quinnsanity
03-31-2017, 06:55 PM
Individual offense is more important than individual defense. I don't know what the coefficient is, but it's big.

Let's be real though, Westbrook and LeBron have both been crap on defense this year. Giving Westbrook MVP because of Harden's defense is just lazy, it's what happens when you let beat writers whose only access to players they don't cover is Youtube videos and SB Nation listicles decide major awards. If you honestly just gave grades for defense, Harden would be like a 60, Westbrook would be like a 65 and LeBron would be like a 70. If you want to stretch, Isaiah is like a 50, and that's four of your top five for MVP. Kawhi is the only MVP candidate who plays defense on a day-to-day basis. LeBron will in the playoffs, but he hasn't at all in the regular season.

There are valid reasons to give the MVP to Harden and there are valid reasons to give the MVP to someone else. But Kawhi is the only candidate whose defense is meaningfully better, and honestly, put a gun to my head and I think I might say that Russ's gambling is more harmful to a defense than Harden's laziness. If you're picking Russ over Harden, the reason shouldn't be defense.