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HandsOnTheWheel
03-26-2017, 09:49 PM
I'll start off by saying I wouldn't want it to happen as it wouldn't be fair to past players. Realistically what are the possibilities we see the first year of multiple MVPs over just one campaign?

GREATNESS ONE
03-26-2017, 10:29 PM
I mean it is possible, some really good players deserving of the MVP this year.

Bostonjorge
03-26-2017, 10:52 PM
Westbrook has 36 triple doubles. If he gets 42 then it needs to be unanimous. It's way more impressive then Curry shooting 3's.

More-Than-Most
03-26-2017, 11:27 PM
Westbrook has 36 triple doubles. If he gets 42 then it needs to be unanimous. It's way more impressive then Curry shooting 3's.

42 triple doubles and still not as valuable as lebron james... That really must piss you off that one player is literally more valuable than 42 triple doubles because defense and efficiency matter.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2017, 12:18 AM
That'd be dumb.


Harden is the MVP.

JAZZNC
03-27-2017, 02:11 AM
Gimme the guy who is 2nd in scoring and first in assists with the better team and higher efficiency. I feel like it almost has to be Harden but you can certainly make a strong case for the NBA's leading scorer that's gonna have the most triple doubles in the history of basketball. This is an absolutely crazy year for raw stats getting out up.

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2017, 08:58 AM
Westbrook has 36 triple doubles. If he gets 42 then it needs to be unanimous. It's way more impressive then Curry shooting 3's.

So number of 3D games determines who should get MVP? Didn't realize that.

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2017, 09:06 AM
Co-MVPs is always a possibility. Statistically, it is unlikely. Two guys have to get the same amount of points.

It has happened in the past. Grant Hill and Jason Kidd shared the ROY award one season (and Glen Robinson, who led rookies in scoring that year, was a distant 3rd). Many thought that was Grant's ward (Kidd only scored about half as many points and had disgustingly low FG%)

Brand and Francis tied for ROY as well. Adn Geoff Petrie Dish and Dave Cowens also tied for ROY.

I have no problem with two (or potentially 3) guys sharing the award. This is a subjective matter, and if two or more guys have all put them themselves in a position to win the award and the math works out, who care.

It's just highly unlikely that there will be a tie.

JLynn943
03-27-2017, 09:30 AM
I understand the argument for either Westbrook or Harden winning it, but I don't see an argument for one over the other. These are both very special seasons. I'd probably lean Westbrook because he has less to work with and Harden is playing under a D'Antoni system that caters to him, but like I said, I don't think either of those arguments are strong at all. I hope for co-MVPs unless something crazy happens.

GodsSon
03-27-2017, 10:00 AM
If Russ gets the trip-dub, you HAVE to give it to him.

sixer04fan
03-27-2017, 10:44 AM
It should be Harden and I don't think it's gonna be that close actually

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 10:45 AM
Check the box score last night and then tell me that Russell Westbrook doesn't has a much inferior team to that of the Rockets.. Westbrook with Houston would be insane. Maybe more-so than Harden right now.

rhino17
03-27-2017, 11:28 AM
Pretty good write-up on why Harden is the MVP. Think its pretty hard to argue with any of this

http://www.si.com/nba/2017/03/27/james-harden-nba-mvp-case-rockets-russell-westbrook

c.c.
03-27-2017, 11:30 AM
Check the box score last night and then tell me that Russell Westbrook doesn't has a much inferior team to that of the Rockets.. Westbrook with Houston would be insane. Maybe more-so than Harden right now.

He wouldn't fit in Houston system, he is a streaky shooter but not really a threat from the 3. His assist probably go up but I think we would lose more games being that Harden is a better leader (my opinion).

After Westbrook athleticism goes away, he will be worthless and Harden will still be Harden. That's why I wouldn't even want him here.

mightybosstone
03-27-2017, 11:39 AM
Check the box score last night and then tell me that Russell Westbrook doesn't has a much inferior team to that of the Rockets.. Westbrook with Houston would be insane. Maybe more-so than Harden right now.

Dude.... But did you actually watch the game? Westbrook and Harden had very similar stats heading into the fourth, and Westbrook padded the hell out of his numbers when the game was well out of reach and the Rockets were playing some really soft defense. I don't think Westy had the better game at all. He just jacked up a bunch of threes at the top of the key when they were down by double digits and got lucky that they started to fall.

Also, Westbrook would not remotely be a better fit in Houston. We've been over this already. Harden is the better shooter, the better pick and roll creator and the more efficient scorer. All three aspects fit much, much better into D'Antoni and Morey's system than Westbrook. Hell, this offense is practically built around Harden and his strengths. To say that Houston would be better with Westy instead of Harden is just blatant ignorance.

mightybosstone
03-27-2017, 11:41 AM
As for the idea of co-MVPs, I actually wouldn't hate this if it happened. But with the way that the votes are scored, the likelihood of it happening is extremely unlikely even in a season like this when there are four really strong candidates for the award.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 11:55 AM
I'll start off by saying I wouldn't want it to happen as it wouldn't be fair to past players. Realistically what are the possibilities we see the first year of multiple MVPs over just one campaign?
Well if you know how the voting works, it's essentially impossible. Harden will be the MVP and rightfully so.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 11:59 AM
Check the box score last night and then tell me that Russell Westbrook doesn't has a much inferior team to that of the Rockets.. Westbrook with Houston would be insane. Maybe more-so than Harden right now.
One game sample size for the win. Harden was the best player on that floor. Stat padding from Russ be damned.

If we are being overly simplistic here, Westbrook has the better defense (of which he is no help to), and Harden the better offense (of which he is the Captain).

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 01:22 PM
One game sample size for the win. Harden was the best player on that floor. Stat padding from Russ be damned.

If we are being overly simplistic here, Westbrook has the better defense (of which he is no help to), and Harden the better offense (of which he is the Captain).

lol Exactly. By that logic why don't we give it to Devon Booker? He scored 70 last night.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 01:30 PM
Odds wise Kawhi has a very outside chance if he goes off the wall in the last couple weeks + the Spurs secure the 1 seed. Lebron odds wise has no chance, the Cavs have fallen off a cliff in March. Westbrook still has a case and will get votes, but the bottom line is that a player on a ~47 win team will not win MVP in this era, especially when he is not the best player in the game.

It will go to Harden, who will lead a team projected for ~45 wins to ~58 wins while putting up 29 and 8 + leading the league in assists with 11+ a night. Other than the round-numbers factor of Westbrook's rebounds (that he/they gameplan for) and the triple-double it created, it's a pretty open/shut case.

ewing
03-27-2017, 01:33 PM
He wouldn't fit in Houston system, he is a streaky shooter but not really a threat from the 3. His assist probably go up but I think we would lose more games being that Harden is a better leader (my opinion).

After Westbrook athleticism goes away, he will be worthless and Harden will still be Harden. That's why I wouldn't even want him here.

Pretty sure you have to be athletic to be a lead guard in the NBA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JLynn943
03-27-2017, 01:42 PM
Pretty sure you have to be athletic to be a lead guard in the NBA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure, but when you mail it in on half the court every game every season, his eventually declining athleticism will not hit him as hard as Westbrook.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:02 PM
One game sample size for the win. Harden was the best player on that floor. Stat padding from Russ be damned.

If we are being overly simplistic here, Westbrook has the better defense (of which he is no help to), and Harden the better offense (of which he is the Captain).

Harden was the best player because he had the superior teammates by far. It's not even close. Zero shooters for OKC. Zero offense outside of Westbrook. Oladipo has not stepped up the way we imagined.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:14 PM
Harden was the best player because he had the superior teammates by far. It's not even close. Zero shooters for OKC. Zero offense outside of Westbrook. Oladipo has not stepped up the way we imagined.

OKC has a better defense than Houston. Houston has a better offense than OKC. The role-players for Houston have been **** the past month, but Harden has been better than ever and still leading them to victories (32/7/11 on 50% FG with the Rockets 9-3. OKC 6-6 in that stretch with Westbrook 42% from the field and 31% from 3).

Oladipo has been solid/everything you could have expected. Not sure what player you though you were getting.

Preseason we expected these two teams to be similar, with the edge to OKC. This stuff matters. If Westbrook was an elite defender, we'd be having a different discussion. But nothing he does outside of the round-number factor of his inflated rebounds give him a case over Harden. He rightfully will lose the MVP to Harden.

Sly Guy
03-27-2017, 02:16 PM
**** that. MVP most valuable player not player(s).

They have co-mvps then the nba is truly the softest pro league out there. "OMG we didn't wanna hurt his feelings. Won't someone please think of the children!"

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:17 PM
**** that. MVP most valuable player not player(s).

They have co-mvps then the nba is truly the softest pro league out there. "OMG we didn't wanna hurt his feelings. Won't someone please think of the children!"
And this is coming from a Canadian fellas.


; )

Sly Guy
03-27-2017, 02:30 PM
And this is coming from a Canadian fellas.


; )

loool.

Honestly though, no one said making these choices are easy. I mean, that's the whole reason why arguments for harden or westbrook this season are so contentious. That's the FUN of it. And whoever wins or loses, it'll still be a point for debate for years afterward. It was the same in years' passed, kobe's lifetime achievement MVP or Nash's 2nd.....plenty of cases. There's plenty of times it's been debatable, and if they cop out and give stupid ***'d co-MVPs when they've had no problem handing out flat out incorrect selections in previous years, then it cheapens the award.

I think they're both deserving, I think they both have a strong case. But I don't wanna see them both win it. Put it to the vote, and make sure an odd number of people have their say. I'll accept whatever outcome.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:34 PM
loool.

Honestly though, no one said making these choices are easy. I mean, that's the whole reason why arguments for harden or westbrook this season are so contentious. That's the FUN of it. And whoever wins or loses, it'll still be a point for debate for years afterward. It was the same in years' passed, kobe's lifetime achievement MVP or Nash's 2nd.....plenty of cases. There's plenty of times it's been debatable, and if they cop out and give stupid ***'d co-MVPs when they've had no problem handing out flat out incorrect selections in previous years, then it cheapens the award.

I think they're both deserving, I think they both have a strong case. But I don't wanna see them both win it. Put it to the vote, and make sure an odd number of people have their say. I'll accept whatever outcome.

Lol yeah I mean obviously I agree. And "should there be Co-MVP's?" doesn't even make sense. It's a massive vote among over a hundred people who choose their top 5 and it's allocated accordingly, not just some single guy who arbitrarily decides this on a whim. "You know what, this year I think i like BOTH of 'em!".

Who's your pick?

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:47 PM
OKC has a better defense than Houston. Houston has a better offense than OKC. The role-players for Houston have been **** the past month, but Harden has been better than ever and still leading them to victories (32/7/11 on 50% FG with the Rockets 9-3. OKC 6-6 in that stretch with Westbrook 42% from the field and 31% from 3).

Oladipo has been solid/everything you could have expected. Not sure what player you though you were getting.

Preseason we expected these two teams to be similar, with the edge to OKC. This stuff matters. If Westbrook was an elite defender, we'd be having a different discussion. But nothing he does outside of the round-number factor of his inflated rebounds give him a case over Harden. He rightfully will lose the MVP to Harden.

And their offense is far superior than ours. Also, our defense isn't that much better. It's definitely not potent enough to stop offensive juggernauts like the Rockets, Cavs, Warriors, or Spurs. And you probably don't watch OKC games but Oladipo does not step up in games that we need him to -- which are games we are going to need him to do when we play vs much better teams. He just shrills up. No way we can beat those teams when Westbrook is the only player who shows up.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:53 PM
And their offense is far superior than ours. Also, our defense isn't that much better. It's definitely not potent enough to stop offensive juggernauts like the Rockets, Cavs, Warriors, or Spurs. And you probably don't watch OKC games but Oladipo does not step up in games that we need him to -- which are games we are going to need him to do when we play vs much better teams. He just shrills up. No way we can beat those teams when Westbrook is the only player who shows up.

Great. And none of this is an argument for Westbrook as MVP.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 03:00 PM
Great. And none of this is an argument for Westbrook as MVP.

Who said it was? You just love to argue, don't you? Must suck inviting you to a bbq or something. "So Tre, how do you like the ribs?"

"it's good but you did not use enough bbq." you're that type of guy. lame as hell.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 03:11 PM
Who said it was? You just love to argue, don't you? Must suck inviting you to a bbq or something. "So Tre, how do you like the ribs?"

"it's good but you did not use enough bbq." you're that type of guy. lame as hell.

Lol nah. I'm super easy going in reality. Definitely famous for arguments and being ridiculous, but a nice guy.

But yeah if your take isn't that Westbrook is MVP then debate over. Seemed to me by all your statements that you were alluding otherwise.

sep11ie
03-27-2017, 03:15 PM
If Russ gets the trip-dub, you HAVE to give it to him.

Why? OR didn't win the MVP when he averaged a triple double.

PowerHouse
03-27-2017, 03:35 PM
Im all for it if we're talking about Lebron/Leonard.

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 03:45 PM
So we were having this debate in our Utah channel as well. And interestingly enough, I had discovered that most of the time (I can't remember the exact percentage, but it was above 90%) the MVP is part of the team with the best record in the league.

Obviously it's not going to be Durant or Steph, so that being said, the number 2 seed team is San Antonio, so I think it might swing toward Kawaii. And if Kawaii doesn't get it I would put my money on Harden.

I personally have a hard time deciding between Westbrook vs. Harden, but I slightly lead towards Harden. Harden's team is just flat out better and that the only point of having a season, to win. Westbrook hasn't done that. Harden has.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 04:02 PM
So we were having this debate in our Utah channel as well. And interestingly enough, I had discovered that most of the time (I can't remember the exact percentage, but it was above 90%) the MVP is part of the team with the best record in the league.

Obviously it's not going to be Durant or Steph, so that being said, the number 2 seed team is San Antonio, so I think it might swing toward Kawaii. And if Kawaii doesn't get it I would put my money on Harden.

I personally have a hard time deciding between Westbrook vs. Harden, but I slightly lead towards Harden. Harden's team is just flat out better and that the only point of having a season, to win. Westbrook hasn't done that. Harden has.

It almost always goes to a top seed, but because of the Warriors having two top players in the league (and the way it happened), it sort of threw that for a loop this year and left it open for other candidates. A 6/7 seed still has NO chance in that scenario, but the triple-double factor made another unprecedented scenario where people are going to see that and vote for him (and don't get me wrong, inflated rebounding numbers or not he's been awesome). In the end though, the Rockets might be a 3 seed (which generally never wins), but he's leading them to a better record than any team in the East right now and his stats are equally out of this world. It's the best case for MVP on the surface and it's why he's going to win.

HandsOnTheWheel
03-27-2017, 04:20 PM
For what it's worth, Kobes the one who mentioned there should be Co-MVPs this year lmao

tredigs
03-27-2017, 04:23 PM
For what it's worth, Kobes the one who mentioned there should be Co-MVPs this year lmao

Lol yeah I heard that too and know that's where this is from (wasn't calling you out or anything by saying co-MVP's makes no sense). But, yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about. You don't just arbitrarily choose to have Co-MVP's.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 06:01 PM
he said he couldn't decide so co-mvp's would make sense. I think we all know co-mvp's are probably never going to be handed out. Just way too many deciding factors and quite frankly, all of it leans towards Harden at this point. Either way, no disappointment in that. He deserves it.

Jeffy25
03-27-2017, 08:20 PM
In 10 games, Westbrook has to average
6.1 boards
6.8 assists
per game

He's gonna get it

Sly Guy
03-27-2017, 09:39 PM
Lol yeah I mean obviously I agree. And "should there be Co-MVP's?" doesn't even make sense. It's a massive vote among over a hundred people who choose their top 5 and it's allocated accordingly, not just some single guy who arbitrarily decides this on a whim. "You know what, this year I think i like BOTH of 'em!".

Who's your pick?

I think I have to go with Westbrook, but I mean it's just so close. Westbrook just by the definition of the award, because he's got less talent around him and if he goes, the whole team is down the tubes. I can respect the argument that Harden has got his team performing better, but I mean, MVP isn't the same as 'best player' or 'best player on best team', it's most valuable to their team. And I think the thunder are in worse shape without westbrook than houston without harden. It sounds crappy, but their individual performance over the course of the season is pretty much a wash, so I've gotta resort to this twisting of words kinda logic.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 09:49 PM
I think I have to go with Westbrook, but I mean it's just so close. Westbrook just by the definition of the award, because he's got less talent around him and if he goes, the whole team is down the tubes. I can respect the argument that Harden has got his team performing better, but I mean, MVP isn't the same as 'best player' or 'best player on best team', it's most valuable to their team. And I think the thunder are in worse shape without westbrook than houston without harden. It sounds crappy, but their individual performance over the course of the season is pretty much a wash, so I've gotta resort to this twisting of words kinda logic.

I'd relate to that reasoning more if they had their teams at the same level. But they don't. Harden is leading them to much more success. 10 more wins in the same amount of games is a huge difference.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-27-2017, 10:04 PM
Dude.... But did you actually watch the game? Westbrook and Harden had very similar stats heading into the fourth, and Westbrook padded the hell out of his numbers when the game was well out of reach and Harden was playing some really soft defense. I don't think Westy had the better game at all. He just jacked up a bunch of threes at the top of the key when they were down by double digits and got lucky that they started to fall.

Also, Westbrook would not remotely be a better fit in Houston. We've been over this already. Harden is the better shooter, the better pick and roll creator and the more efficient scorer. All three aspects fit much, much better into D'Antoni and Morey's system than Westbrook. Hell, this offense is practically built around Harden and his strengths. To say that Houston would be better with Westy instead of Harden is just blatant ignorance.

So like every game?

Raps18-19 Champ
03-27-2017, 10:05 PM
If they end up getting the same amount of points, which as far as I know is still used to determine the MVP, then give them co-MVP.

mightybosstone
03-27-2017, 11:23 PM
So like every game?

:rolleyes: I see what you did there. Really clever.

Htownballa1622
03-28-2017, 11:38 AM
https://bballbreakdown.com/2017/03/27/james-harden-unequivocal-mvp/

Please read the entire article.

kobe4thewinbang
03-29-2017, 05:10 PM
Harden is going to win. Westbrook delivered like everyone thought he would, but Houston is having a great season. Take Harden off that team and you just have a bunch of shooters that don't play defense (other than Ariza and Beverly, who aren't really shooters). Take Westbrook off that team, and they still suck but would probably be better record-wise. We all know what a D'Antoni team looks like without an elite PG (e.g. Lakers). Westbrook is having a similar season to Kobe's seasons once Shaq left (just him and a bunch of borderline scrubs). You gotta give it to Harden. He almost has as many triple-doubles as Westbrook but he's focusing on winning instead of arguably trying to do too much.

FlashBolt
03-30-2017, 06:07 PM
Harden is going to win. Westbrook delivered like everyone thought he would, but Houston is having a great season. Take Harden off that team and you just have a bunch of shooters that don't play defense (other than Ariza and Beverly, who aren't really shooters). Take Westbrook off that team, and they still suck but would probably be better record-wise. We all know what a D'Antoni team looks like without an elite PG (e.g. Lakers). Westbrook is having a similar season to Kobe's seasons once Shaq left (just him and a bunch of borderline scrubs). You gotta give it to Harden. He almost has as many triple-doubles as Westbrook but he's focusing on winning instead of arguably trying to do too much.

What? Houston is more than a bunch of shooters. They have players who can create for one another but because Harden dominates the ball so much, you're not seeing other players have an opportunity to create. Ariza/Beverley/Gordon are more than capable of making plays. On the other hand, you take Westbrook off the OKC roster and we lose. People keep saying the triple doubles are empty stats and he's stat-stuffing but the reality is, we win 81% of our games when he gets a triple double. That's 66 wins if we're talking an entire season. We're a 25 win team when he doesn't if we apply the same logic. This team lives and breathes Westbrook at every facet of the game. It's just undeniable that he's having to do the most with the least amount of talent out of every MVP candidate's team. I mean, I just don't see how the Rockets can be worse than OKC if we take out harden/westbrook respectively. Who do we have? Oladipo is the ONLY guy who can playmake and he's not even remotely that good at it. Adams plays tough defense but that's all he's good for. Kanter is a total liability on the defensive end so we only use him to score his ten points and bench him right back after and let Westbrook get back on the court. Roberson is a very good defender but again, can't score and with a team so dependent on Westbrook, he just has to start scoring and knock some shots down. We have nothing and we are winning. taj gibson was a solid pickup but we're missing shooters. we would easily be a top 4 seed if we added a few decent shooters. Sadly, all we have are bigs who can either defend or score. Not BOTH... which makes it difficult for us to keep players on the court.

Htownballa1622
03-30-2017, 06:33 PM
What? Houston is more than a bunch of shooters. They have players who can create for one another but because Harden dominates the ball so much, you're not seeing other players have an opportunity to create. Ariza/Beverley/Gordon are more than capable of making plays. On the other hand, you take Westbrook off the OKC roster and we lose. People keep saying the triple doubles are empty stats and he's stat-stuffing but the reality is, we win 81% of our games when he gets a triple double. That's 66 wins if we're talking an entire season. We're a 25 win team when he doesn't if we apply the same logic. This team lives and breathes Westbrook at every facet of the game. It's just undeniable that he's having to do the most with the least amount of talent out of every MVP candidate's team. I mean, I just don't see how the Rockets can be worse than OKC if we take out harden/westbrook respectively. Who do we have? Oladipo is the ONLY guy who can playmake and he's not even remotely that good at it. Adams plays tough defense but that's all he's good for. Kanter is a total liability on the defensive end so we only use him to score his ten points and bench him right back after and let Westbrook get back on the court. Roberson is a very good defender but again, can't score and with a team so dependent on Westbrook, he just has to start scoring and knock some shots down. We have nothing and we are winning. taj gibson was a solid pickup but we're missing shooters. we would easily be a top 4 seed if we added a few decent shooters. Sadly, all we have are bigs who can either defend or score. Not BOTH... which makes it difficult for us to keep players on the court.

I just found it funny that you listed Beverly and Ariza as "players who can create for one another."

Whatever fits the agenda though huh?

mightybosstone
03-30-2017, 07:12 PM
What? Houston is more than a bunch of shooters. They have players who can create for one another but because Harden dominates the ball so much, you're not seeing other players have an opportunity to create. Ariza/Beverley/Gordon are more than capable of making plays.
No, those guys really, really, really are not capable of creating for others on a regular basis. Trust me. Ariza is atrocious off the dribble, and is not remotely a creator for others. Beverley and Gordon are both competent ball handlers, but aside from driving and dishing, those guys are not great creators or passers. You would not remotely confuse either of them with a traditional point guard offensively.


On the other hand, you take Westbrook off the OKC roster and we lose. People keep saying the triple doubles are empty stats and he's stat-stuffing but the reality is, we win 81% of our games when he gets a triple double.
How many of those games saw Westbrook coming back to play minutes he didn't need to play to grab one more rebound or assist, though? You can't tell me that the two extra rebounds he gets over Harden is enough to justify Harden's huge advantage in scoring efficiency and the Rockets massive advantage in the win column. I'll take superior efficiency and wins over a couple of extra rebounds and 1-2 extra (less efficient) points on a nightly basis.


That's 66 wins if we're talking an entire season. We're a 25 win team when he doesn't if we apply the same logic.
OK. But what would those percentage of wins have been if Westy had a few fewer rebounds or assists? Would they honestly have made that much of a difference? Because I'm willing to bet that if Westbrook averaged 1 fewer rebound per game, that the change in the Thunder's win percentage would be negligible.


This team lives and breathes Westbrook at every facet of the game.
Yeah, here's a good solid argument worth making. :rolleyes:


It's just undeniable that he's having to do the most with the least amount of talent out of every MVP candidate's team. I mean, I just don't see how the Rockets can be worse than OKC if we take out harden/westbrook respectively.
I don't have the time to do this right now, but if I do tonight, I'd love to break down each individual role player and compare them to a role player on the other team: Anderson to Kanter, Gordon to Oladipo, Adams to Capela, Roberson to Ariza, etc. I'm guessing if we actually look at the numbers of those players, they aren't going to be too far off. The only difference is the Rockets will probably have 1-2 more quality rotational pieces than OKC. But you're not going to see some huge, remarkable differences in overall talent.

Who do we have? Oladipo is the ONLY guy who can playmake and he's not even remotely that good at it.[/quote]
Career AST%
Lou Will: 20.6%
Christon: 18.9%
Oladipo: 18.2%
Beverley: 17.4%
Gordon: 15.8%

Adams plays tough defense but that's all he's good for.
All Capela does well is set screens, roll to the basket and dunk on alley oops as well as get rebounds and block shots at a slightly above average level. But Adams is clearly the superior player.


Kanter is a total liability on the defensive end so we only use him to score his ten points and bench him right back after and let Westbrook get back on the court.
Ryno says hi.


Roberson is a very good defender but again, can't score
Roberson, meet Ariza.


We have nothing and we are winning.
Mmm... Not from what I can tell.


taj gibson was a solid pickup but we're missing shooters. we would easily be a top 4 seed if we added a few decent shooters. Sadly, all we have are bigs who can either defend or score. Not BOTH... which makes it difficult for us to keep players on the court.
Shooters I can see as a major problem for you guys. But the Rockets have a ton of offense-first, nonexistent defensive big men. Nene is the closest thing the Rockets have to a true two-way big. But he can't rebound to save his life.

Bottom line, the difference in talent around these two guys is not remotely as significant as you're making it out to be. The Rockets have probably a couple of extra quality rotational guys, which makes them a deeper, more talented team. But let's not act like the Rockets have some elite level talent around Harden that's significantly better than anybody on OKC's roster. That's simply not true.

Bostonjorge
03-30-2017, 07:12 PM
After last night Westbrook is unanimous. Most points in a triple double ever. How many "most ever" does this guy need?

mightybosstone
03-30-2017, 09:35 PM
After last night Westbrook is unanimous. Most points in a triple double ever. How many "most ever" does this guy need?
Harden's triple double against New York this season was way more impressive, and he didn't need overtime to do it. And Harden has the most 40-point triple doubles of any player in a season in NBA history.

FlashBolt
03-30-2017, 09:37 PM
I just found it funny that you listed Beverly and Ariza as "players who can create for one another."

Whatever fits the agenda though huh?

Yes, they are capable of doing that. Who do you think runs the offense and can help Rockets maintain the lead when Harden is on the bench? Why is Harden's on/off impact not as high as Westbrook/LeBron? Can you give me a reason for that? The only logical answer would be is that the Rockets have been able to still score without Harden. Not necessarily saying they are better without Harden but they are more than capable of doing so when depended on.


No, those guys really, really, really are not capable of creating for others on a regular basis. Trust me. Ariza is atrocious off the dribble, and is not remotely a creator for others. Beverley and Gordon are both competent ball handlers, but aside from driving and dishing, those guys are not great creators or passers. You would not remotely confuse either of them with a traditional point guard offensively.


How many of those games saw Westbrook coming back to play minutes he didn't need to play to grab one more rebound or assist, though? You can't tell me that the two extra rebounds he gets over Harden is enough to justify Harden's huge advantage in scoring efficiency and the Rockets massive advantage in the win column. I'll take superior efficiency and wins over a couple of extra rebounds and 1-2 extra (less efficient) points on a nightly basis.


OK. But what would those percentage of wins have been if Westy had a few fewer rebounds or assists? Would they honestly have made that much of a difference? Because I'm willing to bet that if Westbrook averaged 1 fewer rebound per game, that the change in the Thunder's win percentage would be negligible.


Yeah, here's a good solid argument worth making. :rolleyes:


I don't have the time to do this right now, but if I do tonight, I'd love to break down each individual role player and compare them to a role player on the other team: Anderson to Kanter, Gordon to Oladipo, Adams to Capela, Roberson to Ariza, etc. I'm guessing if we actually look at the numbers of those players, they aren't going to be too far off. The only difference is the Rockets will probably have 1-2 more quality rotational pieces than OKC. But you're not going to see some huge, remarkable differences in overall talent.

Who do we have? Oladipo is the ONLY guy who can playmake and he's not even remotely that good at it.
Career AST%
Lou Will: 20.6%
Christon: 18.9%
Oladipo: 18.2%
Beverley: 17.4%
Gordon: 15.8%

Adams plays tough defense but that's all he's good for.
All Capela does well is set screens, roll to the basket and dunk on alley oops as well as get rebounds and block shots at a slightly above average level. But Adams is clearly the superior player.


Ryno says hi.


Roberson, meet Ariza.


Mmm... Not from what I can tell.


Shooters I can see as a major problem for you guys. But the Rockets have a ton of offense-first, nonexistent defensive big men. Nene is the closest thing the Rockets have to a true two-way big. But he can't rebound to save his life.

Bottom line, the difference in talent around these two guys is not remotely as significant as you're making it out to be. The Rockets have probably a couple of extra quality rotational guys, which makes them a deeper, more talented team. But let's not act like the Rockets have some elite level talent around Harden that's significantly better than anybody on OKC's roster. That's simply not true.[/QUOTE]

1) They can create for one another. They don't have to be elite at it but they are more than capable of doing so. Again, I ask you to name a single player outside of Westbrook who creates for OKC. None of them have a clue how to drive the offense. Why do you think Russ has one of the highest on/off court impact in the NBA and Harden DOESN'T? (In regards to the top players)
2) That's beside the point because we can talk about how Harden stat-stuffs when the Rockets are up double digits as well. The fact is, there is a large pattern in that if Russell Westbrook does not grab a high amount of rebounds and assists, we are probably not going to win. How much difference does it make? I don't know. But we're talking a huge sample size of nearly 40 games. BTW, Russell is on track to have the most triple doubles in a season. That is absolutely absurd.
3) You don't watch OKC games. I can tell because you seriously think I'm joking when I tell you that our team is basically Westbrook. Him on the bench, we always get outscored. Him on the court, we have a high chance of winning games. It's that simple.
4) You compare the AST% of Christon who is in his first season and Oladipo -- who I already mentioned is the only other playmaker we have. You're using AST% incorrectly and not accounting for the fact that the mere mention that we HAVE to use Christon in our rotation shows just how deprived of a playmaker we are. Do yourself a favor and watch Christon try to make a play. More often than not, it is a simple bounce pass to Kanter -- who is a very skilled big man with zero defense. Christon is terrible but you mentioning AST% just shows how little you actually watch these guys play. Someone has to get the assists when Westbrook is on the bench.. you have to be really bad to not have a few assists as a guard if you're playing 15 minutes.
5) Where's your evidence that Adams is better than Capela? Capela is the better rebounder/shot-blocker/more efficient scorer. Adams might be a bigger body but statistics show Capela has been better this season by a noticeable margin. If you're going to misuse the AST% and not do the same for Capela vs Adams, I have no idea why you said Adams is better.
6) Uhm, Ryan starts for your team. Kanter doesn't. Kanter doesn't shoot the three and blocks the paint whereas Ryan opens the floor up.. you're comparing two totally different players. Kanter is so bad defensively that we only use the guy to beat up on role players.. Again, would you trade Ryan for Kanter? I think not.
7) LOL. Comparing Andre to Ariza.. AGAIN, Ariza can SHOOT. Andre couldn't shoot the ball if the next closest defender was a mile away. We would gladly take Ariza for Roberson.. tyvm...
8) From what you can tell? We're winning because Westbrook is playing otherworldly.. you don't even know what you're watching, dude. Do yourself a favor and watch an OKC game and then tell me the great teammates Westbrook have that is comparable to the Rockets..
9) Okay. So you wouldn't mind trading Ariza+Gordon+Ryan+Capela for Andre+Oladipo+Kanter+Adams. Is that what you're saying?

mightybosstone
03-30-2017, 10:17 PM
1) They can create for one another. They don't have to be elite at it but they are more than capable of doing so. Again, I ask you to name a single player outside of Westbrook who creates for OKC. None of them have a clue how to drive the offense. Why do you think Russ has one of the highest on/off court impact in the NBA and Harden DOESN'T? (In regards to the top players)
If you think Ariza is capable of "creating for others," then you have no ****ing clue what you're talking about. The guy is barely capable of creating for himself. Every time he pump fakes and dribbles toward the basket, every Rockets fan on the plane is holding his/her breath. He is not remotely a good offensive player.


2) That's beside the point because we can talk about how Harden stat-stuffs when the Rockets are up double digits as well. The fact is, there is a large pattern in that if Russell Westbrook does not grab a high amount of rebounds and assists, we are probably not going to win. How much difference does it make? I don't know. But we're talking a huge sample size of nearly 40 games. BTW, Russell is on track to have the most triple doubles in a season. That is absolutely absurd.
So what? Harden's having a season with some ridiculous, all-time numbers as well. And I (and many other NBA media and analysts) would argue that Harden's statistical season has simply been more impressive than Westbrooks. You act as if Westbrook's accomplishments somehow completely diminish Harden's.

3) You don't watch OKC games. I can tell because you seriously think I'm joking when I tell you that our team is basically Westbrook. Him on the bench, we always get outscored. Him on the court, we have a high chance of winning games. It's that simple.
4) You compare the AST% of Christon who is in his first season and Oladipo -- who I already mentioned is the only other playmaker we have. You're using AST% incorrectly and not accounting for the fact that the mere mention that we HAVE to use Christon in our rotation shows just how deprived of a playmaker we are. Do yourself a favor and watch Christon try to make a play. More often than not, it is a simple bounce pass to Kanter -- who is a very skilled big man with zero defense. Christon is terrible but you mentioning AST% just shows how little you actually watch these guys play. Someone has to get the assists when Westbrook is on the bench.. you have to be really bad to not have a few assists as a guard if you're playing 15 minutes.
You don't get to spew nonsense about how good Trevor ****ing Ariza is at creating for others and then complain because I don't watch enough OKC games to make a decent determination about your bench guards.


5) Where's your evidence that Adams is better than Capela? Capela is the better rebounder/shot-blocker/more efficient scorer. Adams might be a bigger body but statistics show Capela has been better this season by a noticeable margin. If you're going to misuse the AST% and not do the same for Capela vs Adams, I have no idea why you said Adams is better.
Capela has no discernible skills offensively. He can set screens, roll to the basket and make a dunk or a layup. That's about it. He's a poor man's Tyson Chandler. And I really like Clint quite a bit, but the guy is several tiers down from Adams as a defensive player. Trust me when I say you're much better off with Adams than Capela. Nene is the superior player, and if he could consistently play 30+ minutes a night, he would be starting.


6) Uhm, Ryan starts for your team. Kanter doesn't. Kanter doesn't shoot the three and blocks the paint whereas Ryan opens the floor up.. you're comparing two totally different players. Kanter is so bad defensively that we only use the guy to beat up on role players.. Again, would you trade Ryan for Kanter? I think not.
Then perhaps a Kanter to Lou Will would be a better comparison from a role perspective. But regardless, Ryno is easily a worse defensive player than Kanter, and Kanter has some pretty legitimate offensive skills in the low post, something that's harder and harder to come by this days. To act as if Kanter is totally useless is pretty unfair when they guy's your team's third leading scorer.


7) LOL. Comparing Andre to Ariza.. AGAIN, Ariza can SHOOT. Andre couldn't shoot the ball if the next closest defender was a mile away. We would gladly take Ariza for Roberson.. tyvm...
Oh, I'm not suggesting that Ariza isn't a better player. He is, because he at least has some semblance of a skill offensively. However, I've seen Roberson play defense, and I think he's the better perimeter defender. The gap between them isn't monumental. Ariza is nothing more than a wildly inconsistent spot shooter from the perimeter offensively.


8) From what you can tell? We're winning because Westbrook is playing otherworldly.. you don't even know what you're watching, dude. Do yourself a favor and watch an OKC game and then tell me the great teammates Westbrook have that is comparable to the Rockets..
I never said they weren't winning because of Westbrook, but don't tell me the Rockets aren't winning because of Harden. He's the fuel that makes their offense go. And they may have more talent around him, but if you took Harden off that team, they'd be a 30-win basketball team. Just because Westbrook has less talent doesn't somehow make his MVP candidacy more legitimate.

And voters have clearly agreed with me in the past. Because I was on your side of the argument two years ago, and Harden still lost.


9) Okay. So you wouldn't mind trading Ariza+Gordon+Ryan+Capela for Andre+Oladipo+Kanter+Adams. Is that what you're saying?
No. Because those guys don't remotely fit this team offensively. But I think you'd find that those guys wouldn't make OKC significantly better than they are today. Consider that Gordon and Anderson were with Anthony freaking Davis for years and they were barely able to sneak into the playoffs in their time together. These are hardly the superstar players you're making them out to be.

ewing
03-30-2017, 11:44 PM
Westy is the NBA guys. Give up the ghost

ewing
03-30-2017, 11:47 PM
Harden's triple double against New York this season was way more impressive, and he didn't need overtime to do it. And Harden has the most 40-point triple doubles of any player in a season in NBA history.

I snuck into 7th and 8th grade CYO game once as 9th grader. I feel my results were less impressive for it

JLynn943
03-31-2017, 09:57 AM
Harden is going to win. Westbrook delivered like everyone thought he would, but Houston is having a great season. Take Harden off that team and you just have a bunch of shooters that don't play defense (other than Ariza and Beverly, who aren't really shooters). Take Westbrook off that team, and they still suck but would probably be better record-wise. We all know what a D'Antoni team looks like without an elite PG (e.g. Lakers). Westbrook is having a similar season to Kobe's seasons once Shaq left (just him and a bunch of borderline scrubs). You gotta give it to Harden. He almost has as many triple-doubles as Westbrook but he's focusing on winning instead of arguably trying to do too much.

lol what? Not even close. The hate and misunderstanding that Westbrook is getting from some people is akin to what people don't get about the 2001 Sixers. There is a serious offensive deficiency that that team needs filled, and Westbrook is doing it phenomenally. Now, this Thunder team does have better offensive options than Iverson had I think, but you take Westbrook off this team and they might win 25 games. Does that mean he should get it over Harden, who is also having an incredible year? No idea. But, I don't think that what Westbrook is doing is getting its proper respect.


But regardless, Ryno is easily a worse defensive player than Kanter

Anderson is also a very bad defensive player, but I've never seen any big more useless than Kanter is at defense. Unless Kanter has had an amazing turn around the last month or two, Anderson might be on about the same level but is in no way "easily" worse. I've seen very few that I'd put at Kanter's level of bad. Kanter's a very skilled post scorer, but all you have to do is attack him on the other end and you'll make up for the points he's scoring.

GREATNESS ONE
04-02-2017, 08:26 PM
Westbrook, 40 triple doubles, 1 shy of tying Oscar Robertson, 6 games to go.

Wow.

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 01:06 AM
Mighty, I can tell you don't watch OKC games. No one unbiased will vouch for you that the OKC has a better team than the Rockets.. it's not even close. I don't even bother reading your long *** replies because it's fairly obvious you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to OKC.. I never said Ariza was a great playmaker. I said he was capable of creating for others. He's definitely much better than Semaj Christon.. and you bring him up like he's Jason Kidd.. LMAO, biased or what? Beverley? I'd trade everyone not named Oladipo for Beverley right now.. are you serious? He's the best defender on the Rockets by far. Next you bring up Capela saying he has no offensive ability.. again, clear sign you don't watch OKC games because Adams doesn't have a lick of offensive ability either.. did someone tell you Adams was Kevin mcHale or something? Based on the same measurements you used regarding AST%, Capela is better than Adams but here I see you contradict yourself and say Adams is better... go figure, totally not biased! And then you bring up Kanter vs Ryan's defense.. you are totally wrong. Kanter is so bad at defense that despite his offensive talent, we have to bench him when the game is on the line. he's the most useless near 7ft defender I've ever seen. terrible at guarding pick-and-rolls -- which every team runs against him. Maybe you need to watch a few games like I said because Kanter plays bench minutes vs opposing bench teams while Ryan plays starter minutes against starter players.. And you just frickin admitted that you wouldn't trade your roster for OKC's roster but said "Rockets would be in the same place as the OKC right now if they had Westbrook instead of Harden." Yes, part of the reason why the Rockets (including Harden) has been playing so well is because they have the right system and players. OKC does not have that. And that's my underlying reason as to why Westbrook is clearly doing more than Harden. You can't find a single player worth mentioning about in OKC because they are all dependent on Westbrook. houston has so many offensive weapons that it allows them to create plays for one another. You mentioned Christon.. yeah, the fact we even give that scrub any minutes just shows you how depleted we are in terms of playmakers.

rhino17
04-03-2017, 11:44 AM
Its amazing to me that so many people think Harden has a "great supporting cast now." Before the season started, Houston and OKC were in the EXACT same boat. Vegas had them winning virtually the same amount of games and many had Houston not even making the playoffs.

Without Harden, Houston wins MAYBE 30 games.

The addition of Gordon this year is the first time since Harden joined the Rockets that they have even had a 2nd competent ball handler (but he still is not a playmaker)

LOL at the idea that Trevor Ariza is capable of ANYTHING with the ball in his hands unless it is a corner 3

Lou Williams is the ONLY other player on the rockets capable of creating his own offense and that is only when he is "on" - he is extremely streaky.

Russel can put up as many triple doubles as he wants. But averaging 2 more rebounds per game does not make up for the fact that Harden is a vastly more efficient player and is winning way more games. Russel is my favorite player not on the rockets, but Russel has absolutely no mvp argument outside of "LOOK HOW MANY TRIPLE DOUBLES HE HAS!"


I see these 2 articles I have largely gone unmentioned in this thread, so I will post them again:

https://bballbreakdown.com/2017/03/27/james-harden-unequivocal-mvp/.


http://www.si.com/nba/2017/03/27/james-harden-nba-mvp-case-rockets-russell-westbrook

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 01:43 PM
Its amazing to me that so many people think Harden has a "great supporting cast now." Before the season started, Houston and OKC were in the EXACT same boat. Vegas had them winning virtually the same amount of games and many had Houston not even making the playoffs.

Without Harden, Houston wins MAYBE 30 games.

The addition of Gordon this year is the first time since Harden joined the Rockets that they have even had a 2nd competent ball handler (but he still is not a playmaker)

LOL at the idea that Trevor Ariza is capable of ANYTHING with the ball in his hands unless it is a corner 3

Lou Williams is the ONLY other player on the rockets capable of creating his own offense and that is only when he is "on" - he is extremely streaky.

Russel can put up as many triple doubles as he wants. But averaging 2 more rebounds per game does not make up for the fact that Harden is a vastly more efficient player and is winning way more games. Russel is my favorite player not on the rockets, but Russel has absolutely no mvp argument outside of "LOOK HOW MANY TRIPLE DOUBLES HE HAS!"


I see these 2 articles I have largely gone unmentioned in this thread, so I will post them again:

https://bballbreakdown.com/2017/03/27/james-harden-unequivocal-mvp/.


http://www.si.com/nba/2017/03/27/james-harden-nba-mvp-case-rockets-russell-westbrook

1) Who the fck cares what Vegas thinks? You do realize they are a bunch of people with opinions, right?
2) And without Westbrook, we win WAY less than 30 games. We'd easily be a lottery pick team with the Lakers.
3) I'd trade everyone not named Oladipo for Ariza and that's not even a question.
4) Gordon is better than any player the OKC have right now outside Westbrook.
5) Lou Williams wasn't streaky when he was the Lakers but he's still a much better scorer than anyone we have.. again.. outside Westbrook.
6) He's not vastly more efficient and a huge reason there is a bigger than normal efficiency difference is because Houston has far more capable scorers who can shoot the ball compared to OKC where nothing happens unless Westbrook creates it. There's literally no reason to guard Roberson or guys like Sabonis because they can't score at all. I don't think coaches are telling their players to leave Ryan/Gordon/Lou open at the three. They are stuck there guarding the three while teams guarding against OKC pack the paint and wait until Russ gets to the paint before they run back to the three.. to which Roberson misses wide open ones.

No MVP argument? LMAO. Let's just face it; Harden doesn't carry this OKC team to the third best seed in the West. Westbrook could probably carry that Houston team to a few more wins.

WaDe03
04-03-2017, 01:49 PM
Hell no to co-MVP. It's either one or the other although now that Kobe mentioned it they're probably thinking about doing it. Maybe I'm just bitter Wade doesn't have an MVP, until next year at least.

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 02:02 PM
Hell no to co-MVP. It's either one or the other although now that Kobe mentioned it they're probably thinking about doing it. Maybe I'm just bitter Wade doesn't have an MVP, until next year at least.

Odds of CO-MVP happening is slim as hell. I can't imagine it not going to Harden considering early voters had him winning easily.

WaDe03
04-03-2017, 02:32 PM
Odds of CO-MVP happening is slim as hell. I can't imagine it not going to Harden considering early voters had him winning easily.

Yea I think it would be dumb to do it. I think Westbrook should win and the more I look the more I see people in the media saying the same thing.

JordansBulls
04-03-2017, 07:54 PM
Too close too call.

FlashBolt
04-04-2017, 08:23 PM
anyone watch the Rockets vs Suns game? they looked pretty good without Harden if you ask me... "beverley can't playmake." Yeah.. he just gets 9 assists with 8 rebounds and 26 points.. is he James Harden? wow, 5 players who scored 20 points+ each... what terrible teammates!

tredigs
04-04-2017, 08:58 PM
anyone watch the Rockets vs Suns game? they looked pretty good without Harden if you ask me... "beverley can't playmake." Yeah.. he just gets 9 assists with 8 rebounds and 26 points.. is he James Harden? wow, 5 players who scored 20 points+ each... what terrible teammates!

I did, I had a bet on the game. They barely beat the Suns. A team intentionally tanking (who haven't won in a month) that were already horrible on both ends before they shut down their best perimeter defender and best offensive player. Also nobody says the Rockets don't have capable offensive pieces. Such a bad post.

GREATNESS ONE
04-04-2017, 09:15 PM
Westbrook almost a Trip Double in the first half......


This is your MVP this season.

FlashBolt
04-04-2017, 09:24 PM
I did, I had a bet on the game. They barely beat the Suns. A team intentionally tanking (who haven't won in a month) that were already horrible on both ends before they shut down their best perimeter defender and best offensive player. Also nobody says the Rockets don't have capable offensive pieces. Such a bad post.
Seeking attention I see. You have no idea what you're talking about. In another thread, there were Rockets fans saying how Beverley can't create plays or how the team can't score without Harden. Nothing about the Suns game indicated that they can't score... And five players scored over 20 points. OKC doesn't beat the Suns without Westy.. so again, go back to your fake bets and shoo.

tredigs
04-04-2017, 09:45 PM
Seeking attention I see. You have no idea what you're talking about. In another thread, there were Rockets fans saying how Beverley can't create plays or how the team can't score without Harden. Nothing about the Suns game indicated that they can't score... And five players scored over 20 points. OKC doesn't beat the Suns without Westy.. so again, go back to your fake bets and shoo.
Sorry sick guy, trying to bring down Harden because his team beat the worst team in the West and probably worst defense in the league (sans Bledsoe) is not doing yourself any favors. In the Suns last 10 games (all losses), all but one were opponents dropping 110+ points. Damn Nets dropped 120+ and slaughtered them by 30. You continue to show very little awareness of the league as a whole.

JordansBulls
04-04-2017, 10:08 PM
Suns were clearly tanking. I just think for historic purposes 5 years or longer from now Westbrook breaking the Triple Double in a season will always be known over what Harden did on the season.

sammyvine
04-05-2017, 10:27 AM
Suns were clearly tanking. I just think for historic purposes 5 years or longer from now Westbrook breaking the Triple Double in a season will always be known over what Harden did on the season.

With him clearly stat padding to get that achievement. His teammates literally give him rebounds. I don't think any top coach would allow such stat padding from their star player. Doubt Pop or Kerr would be happy to see Steph and Kawhi grab rebounds from their big men just so they can up their stats.

Anyway Harden deserves it. His team have a better record and he's the best player on that team.

KingPosey
04-05-2017, 11:12 AM
I was just reading a piece about the players in the MVP race, and how their teams fair without them. Essentially The Rockets still play like a 51 win team when Hardens out or sitting. OKC plays like an 18 win team. Either one can win I don't really care but anyone that thinks Westy's stats are empty or he hinders that team in any way just doesn't know what theyre talking about. That team is bottom feeding trash if hes not on the team.

ewing
04-05-2017, 11:25 AM
If Boston wins the 1 seed still no love?