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View Full Version : Better all time player: Shaq v. Wilt



HandsOnTheWheel
03-25-2017, 05:21 AM
Better player in your opinion, taking into account era played, level of competition, dominance and so on. Wilt may be the popular pick but I think strong arguments can be made both ways. Who have you got?

More-Than-Most
03-25-2017, 05:54 AM
impossible to gauge... wilt played in a time where blocks werent counted but there are reports he had 12 plus blocks a game easily plus numerous quad/doubles which is insane when you think about and a product of the times of course.... shaq to me is the most dominant entity to ever play in any sport ever,,, i loved me some wayne and MJ but Prime shaq was a force of nature much like prime tyson... Id go with Shaq just because in his prime i am not sure there is anyone that could stop him.,,, to me him and prime lebron are the 2 greatest unstoppable forces basketball has ever seen.

GREATNESS ONE
03-25-2017, 10:08 AM
So we talking career or for one moment in time? Because 00 Shaq was the most unstoppable force of all time. Wilt would be able to handle him somewhat but he wouldn't be able to stop Shaq like at all.

Wilt was one of the rare specimens ahead of his time, dominating a little man league. Would be like a senior in high school linking a bunch of middle school kids. Well there was that super stacked team in boston.

GREATNESS ONE
03-25-2017, 01:12 PM
https://www.facebook.com/shaq/videos/1139003492894089/

Raps18-19 Champ
03-25-2017, 02:28 PM
If they played in the same era, Shaq, but you gotta give Wilt a bit of a boost for the numbers he posted.

tredigs
03-25-2017, 03:19 PM
So we talking career or for one moment in time? Because 00 Shaq was the most unstoppable force of all time. Wilt would be able to handle him somewhat but he wouldn't be able to stop Shaq like at all.

Wilt was one of the rare specimens ahead of his time, dominating a little man league. Would be like a senior in high school linking a bunch of middle school kids. Well there was that super stacked team in boston.
He played against some very strong excellent bigs actually. Definitely a common misnomer that there was no size then. There was less talent as a whole, but with so many less teams it was far more saturated. Even an older Wilt did great against a young/peak Kareem, who in turn did great as an old man against young Kareem, etc. Certainly not close to the comparison of 18 to 12 yr olds like you're saying.

GREATNESS ONE
03-25-2017, 04:16 PM
True, young Captain got worked on by older Wilt. I exaggerated a bit 12-18yr old.

Let's be real though, Wilt was 7'1 and clearly the biggest guy on the court in a 8 team, 9team etc league. The next guy, who took all the rings, was Bill Russell at 6'10 or so, everyone else was like 6'8/6'9 not a bunch of midgets and strong and capable players but they're not guarding Wilt. I'm 6'3 and when I play ball, and have a 4' advantage over someone I usually dominate the paint and boards, let alone a 6' advantage.

Anyway, I'm still taking Shaq. If I was given a choice to take one in their prime walking into next year.

PhillyFaninLA
03-25-2017, 04:36 PM
I wonder what Shaq would have done if he was playing against big centers on a regular basis, not tall, guys with a ton of mass. I think Shaq would still have been dominant and a hall of famer but would we be asking Shaq verse Wilt....The thing I always fall to with Shaq is Matt Geiger seemed to slow him up, not stop him, but slow him up.

Shaq owns guys with less mass but gets slowed up when guys have mass so they can body him a bit. Shaq was so much stronger and bigger than then the guys he played with and his game was about strength. Wilt had the finesse that Shaq did not.

KnicksorBust
03-26-2017, 02:37 PM
Wilt. Better at everything. Taller, Faster, Stronger, more athletic, better passer, better defender. He also would have a much better chance of being equally dominant in the modern game.

europagnpilgrim
03-26-2017, 03:19 PM
I would take the player who got 30k pts, 20k+ boards and had they kept track of blocks he would have 8-10k in that category

just stupid crazy when you really digest it, that is if you can

also what KNICKSorBUST said, just across the board more dominant and Shaq is one of my all time favs to dominate day1

dhopisthename
03-26-2017, 04:37 PM
Wilt lead the league in win shares 8 times. shaq twice.
shaq lead the league in ppg twice Wilt did it 7 times.
Wilt lead the league in rebounding 11 times. Shaq never.

In terms of impact on the league they were placed into its not even close.

More-Than-Most
03-26-2017, 05:26 PM
this is why i said its impossible to gauge... the stats point to wilt... but Prime Shaq is quite literally the most unstoppable force ever.

GREATNESS ONE
03-26-2017, 06:40 PM
Lol put Shaq back when there was 8 teams. He would've destroyed Bill Russell and the Celtics and would've had 6+ rings.

Jamiecballer
03-26-2017, 08:31 PM
Yeah I will take Shaq also. Wilts competition was pretty darn weak

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lol, please
03-26-2017, 08:44 PM
I love Wilt, but give me Shaq over just about anyone in history.

europagnpilgrim
03-26-2017, 11:23 PM
Lol put Shaq back when there was 8 teams. He would've destroyed Bill Russell and the Celtics and would've had 6+ rings.

Shaq in Orlando had to deal with Indiana and really just the Bulls with Jordan, out West he had to deal with Utah/Spurs with a challenge from Blazers and Kings, so really he only had to deal with 5-6 teams who had a legit chance to win a title and most of the time the WCF was the quasi Finals, so he had to deal with less actual contending teams and didn't win 6, another thing is when you say put Shaq back then you cant put this version of Shaq back then because you never know how he would have been in the early infant stage of the nba, the thing about Wilt is that his athletic/physical prowess was way back then which would transition to the new era going forward where he would still be the most physically/naturally most dominant specimen with the skill to match, dude was running a 4.4-4.6 back then and bench pressing 465lbs like it was a match stick

I love when folks today talk about the lesser teams back then but fail to realize its really a 2-3 man race right now today for the title with a couple of teams that could pull off an upset, in a 30+ team league that is very very weak and watered down from my bball/sports view of life

Wilt literally dislocated a players shoulder from blocking a dunk attempt, talk about pissing a sleeping Giant off, let that Giant sleep, and the guy he did it on was like a Barkley-Lebron type specimen back in those days, G Johnson

Hawkeye15
03-27-2017, 09:19 AM
The way the OP posed the question opens up a debate. Because Wilt is better, period. But IF you must factor in level of competition, era, etc, there is a debate.

I am still taking Wilt, who is arguably the greatest pure athlete we have ever seen in professional sports.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2017, 09:23 AM
Shaq in Orlando had to deal with Indiana and really just the Bulls with Jordan, out West he had to deal with Utah/Spurs with a challenge from Blazers and Kings, so really he only had to deal with 5-6 teams who had a legit chance to win a title and most of the time the WCF was the quasi Finals, so he had to deal with less actual contending teams and didn't win 6, another thing is when you say put Shaq back then you cant put this version of Shaq back then because you never know how he would have been in the early infant stage of the nba, the thing about Wilt is that his athletic/physical prowess was way back then which would transition to the new era going forward where he would still be the most physically/naturally most dominant specimen with the skill to match, dude was running a 4.4-4.6 back then and bench pressing 465lbs like it was a match stick

I love when folks today talk about the lesser teams back then but fail to realize its really a 2-3 man race right now today for the title with a couple of teams that could pull off an upset, in a 30+ team league that is very very weak and watered down from my bball/sports view of life

Wilt literally dislocated a players shoulder from blocking a dunk attempt, talk about pissing a sleeping Giant off, let that Giant sleep, and the guy he did it on was like a Barkley-Lebron type specimen back in those days, G Johnson

Wilt is the strongest human to ever play pro basketball. Hell one of the strongest humans to ever play sports...


Paul Silas

"One time, when I was with Boston and he was with the Lakers, Happy Hairston and I were about to get in a scrape," said Charlotte Hornets coach Paul Silas, who was a rugged, no-nonsense enforcer. "All of a sudden, I felt an enormous vise around me. I was 6-7, 235, and Wilt had picked me up and turned me around. He said, 'We're not going to have that stuff.' I said, 'Yes sir.'"



K.C. Jones

Former Celtics guard K.C. Jones remembered his casual run-in with Wilt. "He stopped me dead in my tracks with his arm, hugged me and lifted me off the floor with my feet dangling," Jones said. "It scared the hell out of me. When I went to the free-throw line, my legs were still shaking. Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game."



Gus Johnson

The Los Angeles Times on Feb. 26, 1981, recalled that Wilt Chamberlain dislocated the shoulder of the powerful Gus Johnson when he blocked one of Gus' dunks. The Philadelphia Inquirer on Oct. 26, 1986, got the scoop from Billy Cunningham, who witnessed the event: "It was Gus against Wilt," Cunningham said. "Gus went in to dunk, and Wilt caught the ball, threw Gus to the floor, and they had to take Gus off the floor with a dislocated shoulder."

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 10:41 AM
I've always said Wilt is the greatest center ever but the stats can be explained through the absurd pace they played in. When Wilt scored 50, pace was at 130. When Shaq scored 28, it was at 93. It's close but the level of competition is just absurd. Orlando Shaq would probably put down more of a beating than LAL Shaq just because of the pace they played in back then. Still going with Wilt cause it's impossible to ignore his physical abilities but c'mon, look at how it was played back then. Euro keeps mentioning that Wilt averaged double figure blocks.. how many blocks do you think Hakeem would be averaging if goaltending was allowed?

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 12:42 PM
A copy paste from one of the questions from google.


"Wilt got his bench press up to 500 pounds. Shaq could only bench about 450, probably less now. When Wilt was 59 years old, he was STILL able to bench 465, which is more that Shaq has ever been able to do."

I gotta go with Wilt on this one.

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 12:46 PM
I've always said Wilt is the greatest center ever but the stats can be explained through the absurd pace they played in. When Wilt scored 50, pace was at 130. When Shaq scored 28, it was at 93. It's close but the level of competition is just absurd. Orlando Shaq would probably put down more of a beating than LAL Shaq just because of the pace they played in back then. Still going with Wilt cause it's impossible to ignore his physical abilities but c'mon, look at how it was played back then. Euro keeps mentioning that Wilt averaged double figure blocks.. how many blocks do you think Hakeem would be averaging if goaltending was allowed?

Goaltending became a rule in 1944, Offensive Goaltend in 1958. Wilt Chamberlain was drafted in 1959.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 12:50 PM
True, young Captain got worked on by older Wilt. I exaggerated a bit 12-18yr old.

Let's be real though, Wilt was 7'1 and clearly the biggest guy on the court in a 8 team, 9team etc league. The next guy, who took all the rings, was Bill Russell at 6'10 or so, everyone else was like 6'8/6'9 not a bunch of midgets and strong and capable players but they're not guarding Wilt. I'm 6'3 and when I play ball, and have a 4' advantage over someone I usually dominate the paint and boards, let alone a 6' advantage.

Anyway, I'm still taking Shaq. If I was given a choice to take one in their prime walking into next year.

Not just young Cap (who again via his lengthy career we can see a corollary of dominance through eras) . Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Elvin Hayes, Bill Russell, Walt Bellamy, etc etc (remember that back then a players height was their actual height, not inflated on stat pages like it is nowadays with the "in shoes height"). Wilt went against players that would be dominant bigs in this or any era. He was just on another level with his strength and versatility.

He had his challenges.

https://sineilleifer.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/1062.jpg?w=960

Lol at the Converses. I love it.


Cool vid on Wilt's strength: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 01:06 PM
That picture is awesome, I really like the stadium. And I didn't realize the players were as ripped as they were back then!!

tredigs
03-27-2017, 01:11 PM
That picture is awesome, I really like the stadium. And I didn't realize the players were as ripped as they were back then!!

Love that picture too. That bruiser #19 down below is Willis Reed. He had a bit of a temper sometimes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsOvUc3FGMk

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 02:09 PM
I've always said Wilt is the greatest center ever but the stats can be explained through the absurd pace they played in. When Wilt scored 50, pace was at 130. When Shaq scored 28, it was at 93. It's close but the level of competition is just absurd. Orlando Shaq would probably put down more of a beating than LAL Shaq just because of the pace they played in back then. Still going with Wilt cause it's impossible to ignore his physical abilities but c'mon, look at how it was played back then. Euro keeps mentioning that Wilt averaged double figure blocks.. how many blocks do you think Hakeem would be averaging if goaltending was allowed?

Either you are a psychic or you just love to blab off at the dentures but its plenty of film/highlights around where players speak on refs calling goaltend on Wilt and its plenty of film to show Wilt going ham(like todays players) when a ref calls goaltending on shots he felt were clean blocks

child please with the pace talk because the better superior player/athletes of modern era should crush that pace unless they aren't as superior as you claim they are

how many more quadruple doubles you think Wilt would have than Hakeem if they actually kept track of back in his day? how many more triple doubles would he have than Oscar had they kept track of blocks back then? it would be absurd similar to his grip hold on the record books

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:21 PM
Either you are a psychic or you just love to blab off at the dentures but its plenty of film/highlights around where players speak on refs calling goaltend on Wilt and its plenty of film to show Wilt going ham(like todays players) when a ref calls goaltending on shots he felt were clean blocks

child please with the pace talk because the better superior player/athletes of modern era should crush that pace unless they aren't as superior as you claim they are

how many more quadruple doubles you think Wilt would have than Hakeem if they actually kept track of back in his day? how many more triple doubles would he have than Oscar had they kept track of blocks back then? it would be absurd similar to his grip hold on the record books
He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the goaltending conversation (not shocking I must say). Though you seem confused when speaking about team pace. Of course #'s back then were inflated for that reason (along with mpg), and it has everything to do with the style and rules of the game, nothing to do with physical fitness levels... Wilt being an anomaly as a freak athlete who could probably pull off 45+ MPG in this era with ease.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:31 PM
Offensive goaltending was banned because of Wilt so it was clearly before he arrived in the NBA that the rule changed. And you guys have ZERO evidence he could do what you guys are saying. It's an undeniable fact that athletes improve over time. I have no idea why that concept is difficult for you guys to grasp.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:33 PM
Either you are a psychic or you just love to blab off at the dentures but its plenty of film/highlights around where players speak on refs calling goaltend on Wilt and its plenty of film to show Wilt going ham(like todays players) when a ref calls goaltending on shots he felt were clean blocks

child please with the pace talk because the better superior player/athletes of modern era should crush that pace unless they aren't as superior as you claim they are

how many more quadruple doubles you think Wilt would have than Hakeem if they actually kept track of back in his day? how many more triple doubles would he have than Oscar had they kept track of blocks back then? it would be absurd similar to his grip hold on the record books

Pace is not an issue if you are playing against inferior players. Way inferior players. Are you arguing that the talent in Wilt's era was superior to the competition of today? Be honest.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:38 PM
Offensive goaltending was banned because of Wilt so it was clearly before he arrived in the NBA that the rule changed. And you guys have ZERO evidence he could do what you guys are saying. It's an undeniable fact that athletes improve over time. I have no idea why that concept is difficult for you guys to grasp.

Right. So Hakeem's BLOCK totals would have totally been inflated had he had the advantage of OFFENSIVE goaltending. Do you re-read your statements ever before hitting send?

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:44 PM
Right. So Hakeem's BLOCK totals would have totally been inflated had he had the advantage of OFFENSIVE goaltending. Do you re-read your statements ever before hitting send?

What are you responding to? That post wasn't directed to you. I refuse to quote a troll unless I really have to.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 02:49 PM
What are you responding to? That post wasn't directed to you. I refuse to quote a troll unless I really have to.

You said, and I quote, "how many blocks do you think Hakeem would be averaging if goaltending was allowed?"! You then reinforced your erroneous point by later saying that offensive goaltending was implemented during Wilt's tenure, as if that has anything to do with block totals what-so-ever.

Do you not understand your dilemma here? How little about basketball do you actually comprehend? Your ineptitude never ceases to amaze me.

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 03:32 PM
You said, and I quote, "how many blocks do you think Hakeem would be averaging if goaltending was allowed?"! You then reinforced your erroneous point by later saying that offensive goaltending was implemented during Wilt's tenure, as if that has anything to do with block totals what-so-ever.

Do you not understand your dilemma here? How little about basketball do you actually comprehend? Your ineptitude never ceases to amaze me.

So I guess I'm confused here as well, and to clear things up, offensive goaltending was implemented in 58, a year before Wilt Chamberlain entered the NBA, so comparing blocks to Wilt with Hakeem, thinking that they had different rules isn't a valid point, as they both had the same goaltending rules. Here's a link for everyone.

http://hooptactics.com/Basketball_Basics_History

Offensive Basket Interference

In 1958 offensive basket interference was enacted. Mainly as a result of Bill Russell, who became known as the “Funneler” from using two hands to guide his teammates shots into the basket. Note: In international basketball, once the ball strikes the rim offensive basket interference and goal tending rules do not apply.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 03:46 PM
So I guess I'm confused here as well, and to clear things up, offensive goaltending was implemented in 58, a year before Wilt Chamberlain entered the NBA, so comparing blocks to Wilt with Hakeem, thinking that they had different rules isn't a valid point, as they both had the same goaltending rules. Here's a link for everyone.

http://hooptactics.com/Basketball_Basics_History

Offensive Basket Interference

In 1958 offensive basket interference was enacted. Mainly as a result of Bill Russell, who became known as the “Funneler” from using two hands to guide his teammates shots into the basket. Note: In international basketball, once the ball strikes the rim offensive basket interference and goal tending rules do not apply.

I think Chamberlain was one if not the reason it was outlawed in college and subsequentely the pros as far as offensive goaltending (ball interference), but it might have been a bevy of factors including Bill like your link suggests. In either case it has nothing to do with block totals.

Going back to the main debate though, I'm taking Chamberlain. Forget his speed, size and strength (which as a whole I don't think you can argue anybody over him), he was just a better basketball player. More fluid, more moves, better passer, more dynamic offensively, just better.

PowerHouse
03-27-2017, 03:52 PM
Yeah I will take Shaq also. Wilts competition was pretty darn weak

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Agreed. It certainly was weaker.

So instead of averaging 45/25 and 10 blocks per game he would average a mere 30/15 and 5 blocks per in todays NBA.

Jamiecballer
03-27-2017, 04:46 PM
Agreed. It certainly was weaker.

So instead of averaging 45/25 and 10 blocks per game he would average a mere 30/15 and 5 blocks per in todays NBA.

the problem is that while you may be right you are also pulling arbitrary numbers completely out your arse. the only point imo that most of us can agree on is that the competition is simply not the same and we have no idea what that means.

JLynn943
03-27-2017, 04:59 PM
Skal.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 05:07 PM
the problem is that while you may be right you are also pulling arbitrary numbers completely out your arse. the only point imo that most of us can agree on is that the competition is simply not the same and we have no idea what that means.
He went against a big better than every big in this game (multiple in fact) as both a prime player and an aged veteran and performed excellently. The depth was not there, but he went against very big, very good players. For **** sake Walt Bellamy would arguably be the best Center in today's NBA and he wasn't a top 10 player of his era. He went against that dude every 7 games when they played against each other. Throw Reed down below in that mix. Throw in Bill Russell. Jerry Lucas. Bob Pettit. The list goes on.

We can't act like the 7 footer was some mystical creature that didn't exist 'til the 90's. KAJ was over 7' tall and far more skilled than every big in our NBA. Ever heard of Reggie Harding? Few have, one of the original tragedies of the NBA. He was an athletic 7' center in the 60's. He was actually the first dude ever signed from high school to the pros. Who couldn't cut it. Had major off court issues, but even on the court Wilt just embarrassed him (we do have film of these unicorns).

The idea that these dudes weren't sizeable elite athletes or that you could drop a Javale McGee in that league and he would just dominate is just a ridiculous argument that I see all-too-often from casual fans.

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 05:16 PM
Pace is not an issue if you are playing against inferior players. Way inferior players. Are you arguing that the talent in Wilt's era was superior to the competition of today? Be honest.

Pace shouldn't be a factor if you are the better superior athlete/player, if the modern era is faster and more athletic that would seem like the pace should naturally be faster and more exciting up and down mania

they played keep away(slow style) a lot back in that day and its the reason why Wilt wanted to leave college in first place because he said it was boring bball, they use to pass the ball around to each other for long lengths at time before shooting, Wilt/Russell were the main reasons for the fast pace because they could outlet the ball full court for a quick layup or jumper so why would I hold that against him when he was the reason why it happened? why would It hold against him and Russell that the blocked shots they got were not kept track of? its clear as day they would be number 1 and 2 all time ever for blocks with 7-10k range for each player

J Ramsay use to have his stat man keep track of Wilts blocks when he coached against him and 2-3 times he said Wilt accumulated 25 blocks each in those games, Wilt had 26 blocks vs the Pistons in a contest as well, mind blowing numbers I know

no I am not arguing the more total talented players vs the lesser amount back then just like I am not taking nothing away from Wilt because he is a superior athlete when compared to todays Lebron or a 80/90's version of Jordan and so on

Pace shouldn't be an issue today and don't give me no more excuses because they did Hack a Wilt back then as they did Hack a Shaq/Jordan(Clippers) as in todays version but you would think it was originated by Diesel

its a reason why they are playing more faster pace today because it is more exciting(going back to the old) and its a reason why the NBA merged with the ABA(exciting players/style), boring can become so stagnant while excitement keeps your attention and tuned in for more to come, the hunger for more is Americas addiction

nothing new under the sun, only difference is you are here to witness this version and not the past that has been recycled and more cluttered with players/teams

back then it was Wilt/Russell teams along with the Lakers/Knicks contending for titles mainly, today its the Cavs/Spurs/Warriors and 5-10 yrs ago it was Cavs- Miam(Lebron show)i/Spurs/OKC/Celtics/Lakers, same ish diff. toilet

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 05:53 PM
He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the goaltending conversation (not shocking I must say). Though you seem confused when speaking about team pace. Of course #'s back then were inflated for that reason (along with mpg), and it has everything to do with the style and rules of the game, nothing to do with physical fitness levels... Wilt being an anomaly as a freak athlete who could probably pull off 45+ MPG in this era with ease.

Minutes per game were inflated because he could actually play 48 per game? to me that sounds like a freakishly conditioned supreme athletic myth but was actually a nba player named Wilt, his team needed him to play those minutes and since he was rarely in foul trouble you keep that player on the court, I wish the so called superior athletic players of today would have that type of conditioning and fire to play basically the entire game

the only others I can think of off top who were built to play heavy minutes like that were Big O/Russell/Iverson

but doesn't athletes dictate the style? what rules are you speaking of where it allowed inferior athletes to out pace superior ones? was the shot clock like 12 seconds back then( I know it wasn't), was it a rule they had to pass the ball a max of 3 times before a shot went off? explain to me these dramatic rule and style changes

tredigs
03-27-2017, 06:05 PM
Minutes per game were inflated because he could actually play 48 per game? to me that sounds like a freakishly conditioned supreme athletic myth but was actually a nba player named Wilt, his team needed him to play those minutes and since he was rarely in foul trouble you keep that player on the court, I wish the so called superior athletic players of today would have that type of conditioning and fire to play basically the entire game

the only others I can think of off top who were built to play heavy minutes like that were Big O/Russell/Iverson

but doesn't athletes dictate the style? what rules are you speaking of where it allowed inferior athletes to out pace superior ones? was the shot clock like 12 seconds back then( I know it wasn't), was it a rule they had to pass the ball a max of 3 times before a shot went off? explain to me these dramatic rule and style changes

Not as much rules to be honest, more so just the style of the game. Team Defensive schemes were not close to the level that they are now, and in general it was a MUCH, MUCH more open free-flying game (spend 1 day watching 60's games and you know what I mean). Your contention here is that athletes as a whole were better in Wilt's day then now because they played longer and at a faster pace, but clearly that is not true. While their deficiencies are over-stated, they weren't super humans either. Players could play more now than they do, but teams are all about managing their hundred-million dollar investments and maximizing efficiency for the post-season (and/or future seasons).

As far as the MPG comment goes, I can tell you that Wilt/O/Bill/AI were far from alone in the high MPG totals. As an example Nate Thurmond averaged over 43 MPG in his 7 year prime and never lead the league in MPG. It was the norm then for stars to play 40 minutes a night.

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 07:06 PM
Not as much rules to be honest, more so just the style of the game. Team Defensive schemes were not close to the level that they are now, and in general it was a MUCH, MUCH more open free-flying game (spend 1 day watching 60's games and you know what I mean). Your contention here is that athletes as a whole were better in Wilt's day then now because they played longer and at a faster pace, but clearly that is not true. While their deficiencies are over-stated, they weren't super humans either. Players could play more now than they do, but teams are all about managing their hundred-million dollar investments and maximizing efficiency for the post-season (and/or future seasons).

As far as the MPG comment goes, I can tell you that Wilt/O/Bill/AI were far from alone in the high MPG totals. As an example Nate Thurmond averaged over 43 MPG in his 7 year prime and never lead the league in MPG. It was the norm then for stars to play 40 minutes a night.

To be honest from the games I have watched defense is piss poor and they over double team a guy way too much leaving gaping holes on the 3pt shot and drives to the lane, pick and roll defense is horrible,(1 on 1 D also) but that's just from my eyes of it, you may see different but I doubt it


the nba went from man to man to allowing a college zone defense, that is not improving at all, more like taking 3 steps backward, that is what separated the league, man up and guard someone, then they removed the handchecking which make it easier for offensive players and took away a defender strength to at least have a punchers chance of slowing down(containing) a scoring machine, but hey we all can think how we do on whatever it is so be it, free will



I am not saying it was more athletic freaks back then I am replying to those who say look at the pace of back then and we all know it was far less slower style athletes back then as opposed to todays league , so how in the world can slow inferior athletes play at a far faster pace than superior ones? its a real simple question that no ones seems to have a true definite answer for

Well you can add Thurmond to that list also, I knew I probably left off a couple of other ones but those were just off the top of my head that I could think of who were built and willing to play those type of minutes, Iverson was the like the last of a dying breed since he use to cuss out L Brown everytime he subbed him out according to Brown himself

Pace has to do with speed/tempo/movement and that advantage goes to the superior athlete, like how the Olympic sprinters/runners in modern era are probably faster than the old school type, that's how I am looking at this pace non sense being thrown out left and right, its way to cliché these days as an attempt to downplay what those back then did, when its really a marvelous feat

if Wilt put up Gobert/Adams numbers back then experts would be screaming how he wasted his talent/abilities to dominate and when he puts up numb minding numbers they scream they are inflated, poppycock

Magic ran Showtime which was free flow then when the chips were down they had Jabbar to feed on the block for his signature hook, Moe/Nelson/Mike D been running free flowing offenses from the 80's to the present so its nothing new to be playing free and wide open, most nba players prefer this style over a grind it out half court style

Firefistus
03-27-2017, 07:19 PM
I wonder if my league pass will allow me to watch one of those old games, now I'm interested in watching one.

tredigs
03-27-2017, 07:36 PM
I wonder if my league pass will allow me to watch one of those old games, now I'm interested in watching one.

It has a few but Youtube's better for it. Here's an example (Spanish commentary though). 1964 Finals G4 between the San Francisco Warriors (with Wilt) and Russell's Celtics (the perfect prime overlap of the two). Really cool game. Celtics pull it out in the end by 2 or 3 and close it out for the Championship the following game.

Edit: Link helps I guess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m188YsgQCXQ

Chronz
03-27-2017, 08:28 PM
Grading solely on their team success and individual production you have to go with Shaq, right? Going by talent and skill you go Wilt I suppose but at the end of the day, we're talking about all time status which boils down to their careers more than some hypothetical draft scenario or something.

Wilt had the prototypical game but I feel like Shaq had the championship mindset more consistently throughout his career.

Wilt would prolly play longer today, be more efficient overall and i gotta imagine would benefit from how we view the games best compared to how he thought he had to prove himself back then. Then again, maybe I'm changing him too much that way.

I have these2right next to each other in any ranking

Jamiecballer
03-27-2017, 08:31 PM
To be honest from the games I have watched defense is piss poor and they over double team a guy way too much leaving gaping holes on the 3pt shot and drives to the lane, pick and roll defense is horrible,(1 on 1 D also) but that's just from my eyes of it, you may see different but I doubt it


the nba went from man to man to allowing a college zone defense, that is not improving at all, more like taking 3 steps backward, that is what separated the league, man up and guard someone, then they removed the handchecking which make it easier for offensive players and took away a defender strength to at least have a punchers chance of slowing down(containing) a scoring machine, but hey we all can think how we do on whatever it is so be it, free will



I am not saying it was more athletic freaks back then I am replying to those who say look at the pace of back then and we all know it was far less slower style athletes back then as opposed to todays league , so how in the world can slow inferior athletes play at a far faster pace than superior ones? its a real simple question that no ones seems to have a true definite answer for

Well you can add Thurmond to that list also, I knew I probably left off a couple of other ones but those were just off the top of my head that I could think of who were built and willing to play those type of minutes, Iverson was the like the last of a dying breed since he use to cuss out L Brown everytime he subbed him out according to Brown himself

Pace has to do with speed/tempo/movement and that advantage goes to the superior athlete, like how the Olympic sprinters/runners in modern era are probably faster than the old school type, that's how I am looking at this pace non sense being thrown out left and right, its way to cliché these days as an attempt to downplay what those back then did, when its really a marvelous feat

if Wilt put up Gobert/Adams numbers back then experts would be screaming how he wasted his talent/abilities to dominate and when he puts up numb minding numbers they scream they are inflated, poppycock

Magic ran Showtime which was free flow then when the chips were down they had Jabbar to feed on the block for his signature hook, Moe/Nelson/Mike D been running free flowing offenses from the 80's to the present so its nothing new to be playing free and wide open, most nba players prefer this style over a grind it out half court style
Cars can go faster now but their average speed is lower due to the proliferation of traffic lights.

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europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 09:22 PM
Grading solely on their team success and individual production you have to go with Shaq, right? Going by talent and skill you go Wilt I suppose but at the end of the day, we're talking about all time status which boils down to their careers more than some hypothetical draft scenario or something.

Wilt had the prototypical game but I feel like Shaq had the championship mindset more consistently throughout his career.

Wilt would prolly play longer today, be more efficient overall and i gotta imagine would benefit from how we view the games best compared to how he thought he had to prove himself back then. Then again, maybe I'm changing him too much that way.

I have these2right next to each other in any ranking

If Shaq had played with basically this year version of Wade, Phoenix injured version of Penny and Kobe Achilles version and won titles then yeah we could probably grade it off team success since we all know Wilt played with Baylor I think like a couple yrs before he called it a career and though West was still doing his thing when Wilt got there I still don't think he was at his youthful best but I could be wrong, Dipper was the sole reason those early teams he was on had any shot prior to beating the Celtics pre 67 season and we all know the better stacked team beats the individual 99pct of the time

based on individual production Wilt first 7yrs he avg around 40ppg, now add the rebounds and blocks and its not really close

proving yourself is a championship mindframe, Wilt use to battle those stacked Russell teams to 6 and 7 games before he got the proper mates to mop him in like 5 games and then choked away a 3-1 lead in another

Wilt was also more of a finesse player which would carry over well into todays game, and when he decided to turn on the power it was lights out

Shaq is the son of Wilt, nothing wrong with being 2nd most dominant ever to your father

when I saw Shaq at LSU I dubbed him a modern day Wilt and he didn't disappoint but damn I wish he had stayed in Orlando shape for his 8yrs in LA because it would have done him super wonders and he probably ends up retiring a Laker with about 3-4 more rings and a couple more league/finals mvps

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 09:26 PM
Cars can go faster now but their average speed is lower due to the proliferation of traffic lights.

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So based on your superb reasoning that means the refs are the traffic lights and are hindering the pace of the superior athletes of today, those damn rogue refs are something else

Jamiecballer
03-27-2017, 10:06 PM
So based on your superb reasoning that means the refs are the traffic lights and are hindering the pace of the superior athletes of today, those damn rogue refs are something else
I had a feeling that would go over your head but considering you are waiting for an answer as to how pace can be slower with better athletes I should probably not be surprised

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europagnpilgrim
03-27-2017, 11:07 PM
I had a feeling that would go over your head but considering you are waiting for an answer as to how pace can be slower with better athletes I should probably not be surprised

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Not waiting for an answer to nothing since pace is such a basic word in the dictionary and I guess slower inferior athletes found a way to outpace the better ones of today

yeah what you said about cars being faster in todays age just truly went over my head, thanks for the wild pitch, I ducked

rogue refs are in proliferation and not just the nba circle but through all sports/entertainment

Jamiecballer
03-27-2017, 11:40 PM
Not waiting for an answer to nothing since pace is such a basic word in the dictionary and I guess slower inferior athletes found a way to outpace the better ones of today

yeah what you said about cars being faster in todays age just truly went over my head, thanks for the wild pitch, I ducked

rogue refs are in proliferation and not just the nba circle but through all sports/entertainment
I have no idea why you are going on about refs

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europagnpilgrim
03-28-2017, 01:04 AM
I have no idea why you are going on about refs

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Well it looks like my wild pitch went over your head and made you duck as well, makes us even because I have no idea why you went and mentioned cars when we are talking about Wilt vs Shaq and the excuse fanatics make about pace back then compared to todays super athletic/better players slow style of play

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2017, 01:06 AM
''If Wilt was a battleship, Shaq is a rowboat'' - Bob Ryan, Boston Globe

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2017, 01:29 AM
Wilt is the strongest human to ever play pro basketball. Hell one of the strongest humans to ever play sports...

According to the late Jerry Krause he is the strongest human being to ever live

Jamiecballer
03-28-2017, 09:57 AM
According to the late Jerry Krause he is the strongest human being to ever live

and if that's not the exhibit A for why we should be cautious in how we place old timers i don't know what would be.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2017, 10:52 AM
the problem is that while you may be right you are also pulling arbitrary numbers completely out your arse. the only point imo that most of us can agree on is that the competition is simply not the same and we have no idea what that means.

considering Wilt was faster and stronger, combination wise, than any big in the history of the game, I think he would do just fine today, or anyday...

This is a guy who sent another guy out on a stretcher who was 260 lbs, by blocking his shot. He picked up a 265 lb man and turned him around like he was a toddler. He was able to run by guards like a deer. I am sorry, but era, competition, or not, Wilt would physically dominate any era, any year, anyone. He didn't have Shaq's girth strength, but was physically stronger. The guy had track star speed/jumping/balance, at 7'1". 285 lbs.

I just don't think the era argument applies to such a freak.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2017, 10:52 AM
According to the late Jerry Krause he is the strongest human being to ever live

many players who ended up coaches of current era players have said Wilt was the strongest, most athletic person the game has ever seen.

KnicksorBust
03-28-2017, 11:26 AM
considering Wilt was faster and stronger, combination wise, than any big in the history of the game, I think he would do just fine today, or anyday...

This is a guy who sent another guy out on a stretcher who was 260 lbs, by blocking his shot. He picked up a 265 lb man and turned him around like he was a toddler. He was able to run by guards like a deer. I am sorry, but era, competition, or not, Wilt would physically dominate any era, any year, anyone. He didn't have Shaq's girth strength, but was physically stronger. The guy had track star speed/jumping/balance, at 7'1". 285 lbs.

I just don't think the era argument applies to such a freak.

Agreed. Wilt could play in this era far easier than Shaq. The more I think about it the harder time I have finding an argument for Shaq other than rings. Wilt was better offensively. Better defensively. Better athletically. Won more MVPS. Had better raw stats. Had better advanced stats. Seems like a pretty easy call here folks.

Chronz
03-28-2017, 12:58 PM
Agreed. Wilt could play in this era far easier than Shaq. The more I think about it the harder time I have finding an argument for Shaq other than rings. Wilt was better offensively. Better defensively. Better athletically. Won more MVPS. Had better raw stats. Had better advanced stats. Seems like a pretty easy call here folks.

Conversely, Shaq would have arguably been more dominant in Wilts era if he remained the same athlete, as in we ignore the medical advances and say Shaq stays as healthy and plays as long as he did in the recent era. Would that argument matter any more than ours if it were true?

I wonder about Wilts mindset offensively, how he held back on his strength as was customary of the time (dunking was considered goonish/offensive) and relied more on his fadeaway than I would have liked. His leadership was questionable in comparison to Shaq as well. He was a crazy scorer early then obsessed with his assists later, can you change that mindset if hes in this era because to me whenever you're focused too much on any one statistic, you're limiting your teams ultimate potential. That said, assist crazy Wilt was the best version of Wilt and he did have his moments of adapting to whatever coaches expected of him, for better or worse.

Shaq never had any quarrels with what he was about, pure unbridled bully ball. He honed his game from day 1 to become the unstopable beast we saw run off 3 straight and 5 finals in 7 years or whatever it was.

Wilt better defensively is debatable, Shaq at his absolute apex was as influential a defender as we've ever seen. Phil Jackson is pretty honest about how his players have been overrated defensively but he admits a motivated Shaq is elite historically. Not sure what advanced stats you're looking at but the only ones I see favoring Wilt are the cumulative ones. Which is all fine and dandy if you really value endurance but cmon man, imagine seeing players today staying in absolute BLOWOUTS just to pad their scoring marks. Wilt did that ALOT and its partly why his playoff production dwindles by comparison, its hard to maintain the same scoring marks if there are less blowouts against better competition.

Wilt's impact is there despite his ball hoggery but there were teams where you have to wonder if he was adding any necessary value with his extra ball dominance. Like those Sixers were a .500 team when they added Wilt, they remained a .500 team after Wilt. I saw a study a few years back that showed the teams offensive improvement being a result of Wilt dispersing more touches along with his enhanced efficiency but moreso his teammates. It was as if he was taking on too great of a bulk of the offense. He wasn't very efficient his skinny years either, when he was playing that skilled game.

Chronz
03-28-2017, 01:26 PM
If Shaq had played with basically this year version of Wade, Phoenix injured version of Penny and Kobe Achilles version and won titles then yeah we could probably grade it off team success since we all know Wilt played with Baylor I think like a couple yrs before he called it a career and though West was still doing his thing when Wilt got there I still don't think he was at his youthful best but I could be wrong,
None of that made sense. Shaq won his title with year 1 Kobe, West was pretty much at the same stage of his career just on the other end of the spectrum, Shaq played better in just about all his long playoff runs than Wilt did in those playoffs anyways. Wilts first title team was stacked, best team in league history for a long time, he calls it the most talent hes ever had. Remember, those Sixers were so good that they still won the 2nd most games in the league (tied with Wilts Lakers) the year they traded Wilt. Baylor was holding Wilt back so I dont care about him but yes he would be the Achilles Kobe/Injured Penny here. Wilt never won with that guy


Dipper was the sole reason those early teams he was on had any shot prior to beating the Celtics pre 67 season and we all know the better stacked team beats the individual 99pct of the time

True, I havent looked at the runs in awhile but I remember thinking alot of those games should have never gone the full 7 or as far as they did if not for Wilt but not all and I have a few questions regarding those early Sixers squads.


based on individual production Wilt first 7yrs he avg around 40ppg, now add the rebounds and blocks and its not really close

Oh it really is, you just dont know how to apply context. Pace of play has slowed tremendously because todays rebounding philosophies have changed drastically, the art of the outlet pass has become less important because teams choose to get back defensively and force teams to work in the half court. Think of how Pop and Thibs have at max 1 person crashing the glass and everyone else ready for transition balance. That trend began in the 70's IIRC and has grown more and more prevalent as the game has evolved into more of a halfcourt game.


proving yourself is a championship mindframe, Wilt use to battle those stacked Russell teams to 6 and 7 games before he got the proper mates to mop him in like 5 games and then choked away a 3-1 lead in another

Yeah that 3-1 lead is a real downer but his squad was injured so I tend to look past it. Still, how often has Shaq gone invisible like that? I wanna say his G7 vs Portland was similar in how he was swarmed and rendered a playmaker.


Wilt was also more of a finesse player which would carry over well into todays game, and when he decided to turn on the power it was lights out

Shaq is the son of Wilt, nothing wrong with being 2nd most dominant ever to your father

when I saw Shaq at LSU I dubbed him a modern day Wilt and he didn't disappoint but damn I wish he had stayed in Orlando shape for his 8yrs in LA because it would have done him super wonders and he probably ends up retiring a Laker with about 3-4 more rings and a couple more league/finals mvps
I like what Shaq became in LA, I will never agree with you but I think he ends up around the same guy regardless.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2017, 02:36 PM
and if that's not the exhibit A for why we should be cautious in how we place old timers i don't know what would be.

Krause knew a little something about building a team, he made a lot of key moves to get Jordan the pieces to succeed, Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman/Oakley traded for Cartwright, so it could be exhibit Z as far as I am concerned, I notice how people like you forget to realize that Dipper was literally a true Giant on the court and in life, he didn't have normal strength like what you see on the court today, I wish he had went to the Chiefs so he could have really showed his strength in the NFL, what a scary sight

Ali manager saw Wilt and backed out of a potential boxing match and according to most experts Ali or Sugar Ray Robinson are the best(greatest) ever to do it

when replying to me use more substance or just go about your business because your one liners are petty at best

you are a prime example why the new timers need to do more studying on the old timers to see where it all started and recycled right here in todays era, you probably think Krause started his career as the GM for the Bulls if we let you tell it

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2017, 02:57 PM
None of that made sense. Shaq won his title with year 1 Kobe, West was pretty much at the same stage of his career just on the other end of the spectrum, Shaq played better in just about all his long playoff runs than Wilt did in those playoffs anyways. Wilts first title team was stacked, best team in league history for a long time, he calls it the most talent hes ever had. Remember, those Sixers were so good that they still won the 2nd most games in the league (tied with Wilts Lakers) the year they traded Wilt. Baylor was holding Wilt back so I dont care about him but yes he would be the Achilles Kobe/Injured Penny here. Wilt never won with that guy


True, I havent looked at the runs in awhile but I remember thinking alot of those games should have never gone the full 7 or as far as they did if not for Wilt but not all and I have a few questions regarding those early Sixers squads.


Oh it really is, you just dont know how to apply context. Pace of play has slowed tremendously because todays rebounding philosophies have changed drastically, the art of the outlet pass has become less important because teams choose to get back defensively and force teams to work in the half court. Think of how Pop and Thibs have at max 1 person crashing the glass and everyone else ready for transition balance. That trend began in the 70's IIRC and has grown more and more prevalent as the game has evolved into more of a halfcourt game.


Yeah that 3-1 lead is a real downer but his squad was injured so I tend to look past it. Still, how often has Shaq gone invisible like that? I wanna say his G7 vs Portland was similar in how he was swarmed and rendered a playmaker.


I like what Shaq became in LA, I will never agree with you but I think he ends up around the same guy regardless.

1. It made plenty sense because Wilt was in his what 7-8th season by the time he had the talent to compete and then when he went to the Lakers Baylor was basically retired and like you said West was on the flip side on his superb career while Shaq had a super young/prime/dangerous/peak Penny-Kobe-Wade through his first 13-14yrs, damn he should have won the team success debate, so like I said take the other versions of those players and if Shaq wins with those then it can be a more balanced debate since prior to 67' title Wilt didn't have the teams to win a title, but he was that dominant to have them battling for it

2. Well according to Bill Russell and others he was the reason why, for better or worse

3. if two coaches have changed the pace that dramatically then so be it, great for them, but when Love or anyone else does that full court outlet pass the crowd/announcers go crazy over it so it must be a legendary play that has died out, if rebounding philosophy killed the pace then that has to be the weakest greatest reason I have ever heard of, cant get any more context than that

4. Rodman shut(contained) Shaq down and I want to say fouled him out but I cant really remember, I didn't know Wilts squad was injured so I guess that's how you blow a 3-1 lead, Shaq was slowed by that Blazers squad because they had the perfect mix of a big mass Center with the long lengthy defenders surrounding him from all angles, in the playoffs team would swarm Wilt, Shaq saw his share of double-triple teams as well, Wilts numbers across the board were always good in the playoffs, every player in history has struggled at one point when based on how they usually perform at high level from reg. to postseason

5. I love that Shaq became a champion in LA, he had a chance to be a champion in Orlando in 95' but lost out, he should have won nba mvp in Orlando but I think DRob got it, but he was much more mobile before he ballooned to 370lbs, I mean give me that 285-300lb Orlando version

Shaq is looked at being more dominant because he won league mvp/titles with LA but if you have any ounce of nba knowledge and go watch the film it is clear as day he was dominant day 1 without the titles/league mvp, its the reason he has a statue in LA right now and not Orlando, titles

you wont never agree with me but just said he would be around the same guy, of course he was the same guy just 100lbs or so heavier in LA and went to 4 finals instead of 1 like to did in Orlando, same display of dominance but winning makes it more worthy to remember, his losing stats vs Dream were incredible but he lost the series

Jamiecballer
03-28-2017, 04:49 PM
Krause knew a little something about building a team, he made a lot of key moves to get Jordan the pieces to succeed, Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman/Oakley traded for Cartwright, so it could be exhibit Z as far as I am concerned, I notice how people like you forget to realize that Dipper was literally a true Giant on the court and in life, he didn't have normal strength like what you see on the court today, I wish he had went to the Chiefs so he could have really showed his strength in the NFL, what a scary sight

Ali manager saw Wilt and backed out of a potential boxing match and according to most experts Ali or Sugar Ray Robinson are the best(greatest) ever to do it

when replying to me use more substance or just go about your business because your one liners are petty at best

you are a prime example why the new timers need to do more studying on the old timers to see where it all started and recycled right here in todays era, you probably think Krause started his career as the GM for the Bulls if we let you tell it

fair enough. more thought could definitely be put into some of my posts. having said that, the posts in which i have been responding to you did not require further explanation. i could go on and on about how peoples memories tend to distort over time, or point out the absurdity of such a hyperbolic statement, or even point out that Jerry Krause probably doesn't have enough contacts to be a reliable judge of who is the strongest man in the world. in the end, does it really matter? this is all self evident to most people.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2017, 05:11 PM
fair enough. more thought could definitely be put into some of my posts. having said that, the posts in which i have been responding to you did not require further explanation. i could go on and on about how peoples memories tend to distort over time, or point out the absurdity of such a hyperbolic statement, or even point out that Jerry Krause probably doesn't have enough contacts to be a reliable judge of who is the strongest man in the world. in the end, does it really matter? this is all self evident to most people.

That's why its called a honest opinion, Krause was giving his judgement just like it took his judgement to move Jordan favorite/best friend at that time in Oakley for Cartwright to shore up that interior defense with Grant, or how he drafted Pippen or go get the so called Euro version of Jordan(Kukoc) and get a player who nobody really wanted to touch(Rodman) in a trade for Purdue, so based off those moves alone his opinion carries some weight and not saying its the end of all end but when someone says Jordan is the GOAT it has to be some truth to it, but more so its an opinion, just like I feel Wilt is the best/most dominant ever which has weight to it also but doesn't mean you cant think Jabbar/Jordan/Magic etc.

Wilt according to Arnold/Terminator was out lifting the strongest body builders in the world when they worked out, according to Wilt former teammate Arnold never came back into the weight room when Wilt displayed his bench press abilities, put Arnold straight to shame

its a fine line between the truth vs opinion but I would rather roll with truth but I respect all opinions as long as they are in the ball park and Krause is in the ball park, rather in the dugout or the upper section

and you mentioning how fast cars are when we are talking about Wilt vs Shaq and I was speaking on the pace of a nba game definitely needs more than a one liner, like cars had nothing to do with this topic and you threw a wild pitch right over my head, good thing I got good reflexes to duck it because according to you it went over my head

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2017, 01:09 AM
Wilt had many games with this stat line or similar: 53pts-32rebs-14assts-24blks-11stls

He is not only the unofficial all time block leader(Russell right there also) he is the unofficial all time quadruple and triple double leader and its not really even close