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View Full Version : LeBron vs Duncan, if you had one pick to have for twenty years?



kyubi256
03-22-2017, 11:45 AM
Who would you choose? Lebron is probably the best of all time or up there with Jordan, but Duncan may be the greatest teammate and leader and he's up there too for top 5 of all time. Who would you build around?

Vinylman
03-22-2017, 11:46 AM
Lebroom fo sho

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 12:21 PM
Timmah

timz-a-changin
03-22-2017, 12:23 PM
Duncan easily... He is the best PF of all time, does not bring any drama to the team or unwanted attention to himself, he is clutch and complete player, and he is LOYAL.

archdevil84
03-22-2017, 12:43 PM
i can only imagine the possible things lebron couldve achieved if he had pop as his HC his entire career

mightybosstone
03-22-2017, 12:44 PM
It's easy to look at this debate and say "Duncan has more rings and has had the better career." But this isn't quite the apples to apples comparison that the Dirk and Kobe debate was because Lebron came into the league like 4-5 years after Duncan did. If you match up their peak years and the length and strength of their primes, Lebron is clearly the better, more productive basketball player in both the regular season and the playoffs. It's not really even debatable.

Also, they had significantly different circumstances throughout their careers. Duncan came into a nearly perfect situation, playing next to a top 20 all-time player his rookie season and playing for one of the greatest coaches in NBA history his entire career. Lebron came into a terrible situation surrounded by no other All-Star level players and had the first seven years of his career practically wasted by mediocre coaching and front office decisions.

Duncan had an unbelievable career, but the sheer consistency around him between Pop, Manu, Parker and a constant stream of quality veteran players, solid free agent acquisitions and excellent draft selections is remarkable in this era of professional sports. Put Lebron in that situation, and you're telling me the guy couldn't have just as easily won 5 rings, if not more? I think he absolutely would have.

The other aspect here that I regular see overrated from Duncan is leadership. I regularly see people talk about how much of a leader Duncan was. And I don't doubt that. But it's pretty easy to lead with Pop as your coach, surrounded by a competent front office and excellent secondary options your entire career. Lebron has had to lead through a variety of difficult situations on totally different teams. He has taken three completely different sets of players to seven consecutive NBA Finals, has attracted star players to play for significantly less money and has acted as a de facto GM at times. And the guy has acted as the face of the NBA for the better part of the last decade.

Don't get me wrong. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Duncan. He's in my top 5 players of all-time, he's unquestionably the greatest PF in NBA history and his career was truly remarkable. But if I'm starting a team, and I can only pick one guy, I'm taking Lebron. Not only is he just simply the better overall basketball player, but the guy has proven he can lead a team to success a number of different ways surrounded by some very different rosters. How many hurdles did Duncan really have to jump in his NBA career? Because Lebron has jumped over dozens of them.

HandsOnTheWheel
03-22-2017, 01:08 PM
Lol is this even a question? Lebron.

krazylegz
03-22-2017, 01:39 PM
if popovich was the one grooming lebron in san antonio (or cleveland,for that matter).....couldnt even dream of how many titles either of those teams wouldve won

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 01:39 PM
It's easy to look at this debate and say "Duncan has more rings and has had the better career." But this isn't quite the apples to apples comparison that the Dirk and Kobe debate was because Lebron came into the league like 4-5 years after Duncan did. If you match up their peak years and the length and strength of their primes, Lebron is clearly the better, more productive basketball player in both the regular season and the playoffs. It's not really even debatable.

Also, they had significantly different circumstances throughout their careers. Duncan came into a nearly perfect situation, playing next to a top 20 all-time player his rookie season and playing for one of the greatest coaches in NBA history his entire career. Lebron came into a terrible situation surrounded by no other All-Star level players and had the first seven years of his career practically wasted by mediocre coaching and front office decisions.

Duncan had an unbelievable career, but the sheer consistency around him between Pop, Manu, Parker and a constant stream of quality veteran players, solid free agent acquisitions and excellent draft selections is remarkable in this era of professional sports. Put Lebron in that situation, and you're telling me the guy couldn't have just as easily won 5 rings, if not more? I think he absolutely would have.

The other aspect here that I regular see overrated from Duncan is leadership. I regularly see people talk about how much of a leader Duncan was. And I don't doubt that. But it's pretty easy to lead with Pop as your coach, surrounded by a competent front office and excellent secondary options your entire career. Lebron has had to lead through a variety of difficult situations on totally different teams. He has taken three completely different sets of players to seven consecutive NBA Finals, has attracted star players to play for significantly less money and has acted as a de facto GM at times. And the guy has acted as the face of the NBA for the better part of the last decade.

Don't get me wrong. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Duncan. He's in my top 5 players of all-time, he's unquestionably the greatest PF in NBA history and his career was truly remarkable. But if I'm starting a team, and I can only pick one guy, I'm taking Lebron. Not only is he just simply the better overall basketball player, but the guy has proven he can lead a team to success a number of different ways surrounded by some very different rosters. How many hurdles did Duncan really have to jump in his NBA career? Because Lebron has jumped over dozens of them.

Duncan's leadership had nothing to do with Pop though. It was his ability to connect with his teammates on a different level. It's just the kind of guy he was. He is a far different type of person/teammate than Lebron. Both have been very successful, they've just done it differently.

Pop has been great, but Duncan changed that franchise. He is the reason they are where they are right now. Without him being the kind of teammate/person he was, allowing Pop to coach him as if he were the 15th man, no favoritism, etc... He set the tone pretty much, and Pop has said that over and over again.

After TD retired, there were many stories about how great a teammate he was. It's the kind of person he is. The dude graduated with a degree in Psychology, so he had a much different type of intellect when it comes to dealing with different types of personalities and knowing how to reach his teammates.

I'm not gonna knock anyone who chooses Lebron tho. But people choosing TD is not crazy either. He came into the league and was an immediate MVP/All NBA/All Defense player

krazylegz
03-22-2017, 01:40 PM
i can only imagine the possible things lebron couldve achieved if he had pop as his HC his entire career

sorry,stole your response pretty much,but its true...if popovich was the one who groomed this man-beast in san antonio or cleveland....we cant fathom how many titles or mvps would have been won in that span

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 01:41 PM
if popovich was the one grooming lebron in san antonio (or cleveland,for that matter).....couldnt even dream of how many titles either of those teams wouldve won

Have you ever seen how Pop yelled at TD and got on him like he was anyone else?

You think Lebron would be cool with that? He may have, I truly don't know. But that type of coaching doesn't work with everyone.

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 01:43 PM
Duncan would've been great regardless if Pop was his coach or not. If he made all the same moves as Lebron, he probably has as many, if not more titles too. (since people are using this comparison)

If TD was in the East? Who knows

krazylegz
03-22-2017, 01:45 PM
Have you ever seen how Pop yelled at TD and got on him like he was anyone else?

You think Lebron would be cool with that? He may have, I truly don't know. But that type of coaching doesn't work with everyone.

i do think lebron would be cool with that,if it happened from the jump of his nba career....no offense to paul silas,i liked him as clevelands coach,but if pop was the one doing the grooming (and san antonios front office for the matter) lebron wouldve been more in check....lebron had the keys to the whole city of cleveland from jumpstreet.....it wouldve been different in s.a.....either way,id take lebron over the span of 20 years...timmy is obviously a top 10 player of all time,but damn,lebron is just a freak of nature,never thought that of tim duncan

krazylegz
03-22-2017, 01:47 PM
Duncan would've been great regardless if Pop was his coach or not. If he made all the same moves as Lebron, he probably has as many, if not more titles too. (since people are using this comparison)

If TD was in the East? Who knows
fair enough...im a cavs fan,your a spurs fan,we could go back and forth all day:):)...the east vs west argument is fair tho...but damn,if bron had pop to groom him,i could only dream,that "4 years of college" in miami wouldnt have been needed

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 01:54 PM
fair enough...im a cavs fan,your a spurs fan,we could go back and forth all day:):)...the east vs west argument is fair tho...but damn,if bron had pop to groom him,i could only dream,that "4 years of college" in miami wouldnt have been needed

:hi5:

Ha.. I like that "4 years of college" in Miami. He definitely grew up there

europagnpilgrim
03-22-2017, 01:55 PM
Duncan easily... He is the best PF of all time, does not bring any drama to the team or unwanted attention to himself, he is clutch and complete player, and he is LOYAL.

Duncan had one foot out the door heading to Orlando to team up with Hill/Tmac yrs ago so I don't know about all that loyalty talk

he was on the down low in the closet so I am sure he never wanted attention, other than that I pretty much agree, he is the most accomplished PF of all time, he was taller and a better defender than Barkley but he wasn't offensively better and inch for inch Barkley was a better rebounder

krazylegz
03-22-2017, 01:56 PM
:hi5:

Ha.. I like that "4 years of college" in Miami. He definitely grew up there

btw,stoked to be trash talkin with ya come june in an '07 rematch (fingers crossed)

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 02:13 PM
Duncan had one foot out the door heading to Orlando to team up with Hill/Tmac yrs ago so I don't know about all that loyalty talk

he was on the down low in the closet so I am sure he never wanted attention, other than that I pretty much agree, he is the most accomplished PF of all time, he was taller and a better defender than Barkley but he wasn't offensively better and inch for inch Barkley was a better rebounder

I guess Kawhi is as well. That's just silly talk :facepalm:

He was loyal. He was in the league a few years, was not sure of which direction the Spurs were going, and did his due diligence as a FA. People think he had prime Robinson/Parker/Ginobili his whole career. His first 5-7 years, not at all. D-Rob was on his way out, and Parker/Manu were still finding their way. He was the team

In short, he turned down a more attractive opportunity to stay with SA. I'd say that's loyalty.

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 02:17 PM
btw,stoked to be trash talkin with ya come june in an '07 rematch (fingers crossed)

I sure hope so. Just won't be the same tho without the likes of Tim Duncan and Boobie Gibson

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2017, 02:29 PM
Duncan.

Jetsguy
03-22-2017, 02:49 PM
Lebron easy for me 10 times out of 10

Hawkeye15
03-22-2017, 02:52 PM
Duncan's leadership had nothing to do with Pop though. It was his ability to connect with his teammates on a different level. It's just the kind of guy he was. He is a far different type of person/teammate than Lebron. Both have been very successful, they've just done it differently.

Pop has been great, but Duncan changed that franchise. He is the reason they are where they are right now. Without him being the kind of teammate/person he was, allowing Pop to coach him as if he were the 15th man, no favoritism, etc... He set the tone pretty much, and Pop has said that over and over again.

After TD retired, there were many stories about how great a teammate he was. It's the kind of person he is. The dude graduated with a degree in Psychology, so he had a much different type of intellect when it comes to dealing with different types of personalities and knowing how to reach his teammates.

I'm not gonna knock anyone who chooses Lebron tho. But people choosing TD is not crazy either. He came into the league and was an immediate MVP/All NBA/All Defense player

well, Duncan stayed 4 years in college, and came right into a win now (and forever) scenario. LeBron was 18...in Cleveland.

But yeah, I won't blast anyone for taking either really.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2017, 02:52 PM
LeBron to me is simply the better player, so I will take him.

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 02:56 PM
well, Duncan stayed 4 years in college, and came right into a win now (and forever) scenario. LeBron was 18...in Cleveland.

But yeah, I won't blast anyone for taking either really.

He made it a win forever scenario ;)

Hawkeye15
03-22-2017, 03:20 PM
He made it a win forever scenario ;)

he was absolutely a huge part of that. But you can't argue he was given amazing help all around, making it the ideal situation for a superstar. Only a few (Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe) were given chip help up and down the franchise the majority of their whole careers. Very fortunate.

In this argument alone, it's a joke to compare rings, considering what LeBron played with his first 7 years versus Duncan.

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 03:31 PM
he was absolutely a huge part of that. But you can't argue he was given amazing help all around, making it the ideal situation for a superstar. Only a few (Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe) were given chip help up and down the franchise the majority of their whole careers. Very fortunate.

In this argument alone, it's a joke to compare rings, considering what LeBron played with his first 7 years versus Duncan.

Yea, comparing rings in this argument, and many is silly.

Duncan came into a nice situation, but I think it does get overblown just a tad. But that's just my opinion. Folks look at names vs where those players were at in their careers. (Pop included in this, not just the players)

At the end of the day, either of these guys will bring multiple titles to any team they go to.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2017, 04:31 PM
Yea, comparing rings in this argument, and many is silly.

Duncan came into a nice situation, but I think it does get overblown just a tad. But that's just my opinion. Folks look at names vs where those players were at in their careers. (Pop included in this, not just the players)

At the end of the day, either of these guys will bring multiple titles to any team they go to.

yeah but we have to look at results, not perception. The fact is, Pops became one of the very greatest coaches in history. Was he when Duncan started? No. But Duncan wasn't a top 10 player ever at that time either. He ended up there..

The Spurs are the Patriots of the NBA. Just run perfectly. None of it matters if you don't have the right players, and Duncan isn't replaceable by more than a couple other guys in history for what he did. So don't think I am taking anything away from him, without Duncan, the rest of it doesn't matter much.

Example-usually when a team that competed for titles for a long time ages, they regress, and need to rebuild. Not only are the Spurs not doing that, they are just as good now as ever. That points to the front office dude.

lamzoka
03-22-2017, 04:55 PM
LeBron and its not even close.

kdspurman
03-22-2017, 05:07 PM
yeah but we have to look at results, not perception. The fact is, Pops became one of the very greatest coaches in history. Was he when Duncan started? No. But Duncan wasn't a top 10 player ever at that time either. He ended up there..

The Spurs are the Patriots of the NBA. Just run perfectly. None of it matters if you don't have the right players, and Duncan isn't replaceable by more than a couple other guys in history for what he did. So don't think I am taking anything away from him, without Duncan, the rest of it doesn't matter much.

Example-usually when a team that competed for titles for a long time ages, they regress, and need to rebuild. Not only are the Spurs not doing that, they are just as good now as ever. That points to the front office dude.

It absolutely points to the front office. But it also points to the culture and environment that TD helped create. If he wasn't the type of player, and person that he was.... Let's say he was more dramatic and/or a bad teammate, guys don't stay there like they did. They don't take pay cuts to try and allow more talent, or they don't allow Pop to coach them the way he does.

TD's greatness as a player and teammate is a major reason why they're still good today. I think the imprint he left for those reasons get overlooked. Yes they have tremendous scouts, and development personnel. But to get some of these guys to buy into Pop's philosophies and what not? That's due in large part to 21. It's why Pop can bench Kawhi 2 minutes into a game for screwing up, and not think 2x about it.

FlashBolt
03-22-2017, 06:10 PM
I can't find a single reason to pick Timmy other than defensive purposes (LeBron was a great defender but not for the duration of Timmy). I guess you can say rebounding but that was Timmy's job and after a few years, much of the responsibility in scoring and defensively have been shifted to other players such as Bowen and even Kawhi. A few of Timmy's rings were clearly not at the same intensity and effort LeBron had to go through. He's been on stacked teams. Even currently, we have to abide by the same logic. When your best player leaves a team, we judge his value by how much the team has declined. Spurs haven't lost a beat but I put dollars to donuts that if they had won a ring last year, we'd be saying "Timmy with six rings>LeBron with three." I give Timmy credit for being as great as he was but a part of me feels like he's had just way too much help playing under Pop and that amazing franchise. We're talking about Manu and Parker. I think at one point, Parker was probably a top three PG in the game and Manu was the sixth man every year. I've heard arguments that said Manu could easily have been a 25/6/6 player with his own team. Spurs run ten deep every year. I probably disagree with LeBron co-existing with Pop as fluidly as some are saying. LeBron was a huge diva when he was younger and still is to this day. They'll win many rings, though. LeBron would definitely have more than three IMO. His Finals record would be much better. I really can't find a scenario where I would pick Timmy over LeBron.

Heediot
03-22-2017, 06:16 PM
Older rules - Timmy
Newer rules - LeBron.

Personally I would take 2 rings with Timmy with he way he approaches the game and how humble he is vs. 6 with James.

mrblisterdundee
03-22-2017, 10:13 PM
What argument is there against LeBron James? He is younger specimen of physical perfection with an equally high basketball IQ who just happened to play on weaker teams the first half of his career.
Duncan was consistently great and not that far behind James. But he often had more help. He hasn't carried the burden James has.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2017, 10:17 PM
It's hilarious watching people say it's "not even close" do you even watch a basketball? Best PF of all time s the best SF of all time. You must be new or just a youngin. Hilarious.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2017, 10:22 PM
Lebron is awesome, great fantastic. Does he win 3 ring in the West? Probably not. Does Duncan win 5 rings without Pop? Probably not.... this is a preference in player and a great/close comparison. To say it's not close, means you don't understand basketball. Lebron is a great player but he's hand picked his team to championships, which he probably had to do to actually win. Duncan a silent leader, walked into a great situation and won... a lot. This is a preference pick not an "easy" pick. So let's not get carried away.

mightybosstone
03-22-2017, 10:37 PM
Older rules - Timmy
Newer rules - LeBron.

Personally I would take 2 rings with Timmy with he way he approaches the game and how humble he is vs. 6 with James.

:laugh: This is right up there among some of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on PSD.

"Humility is way more important than rings when you measure a player's legacy."
- No one ever

mightybosstone
03-22-2017, 10:48 PM
I can't find a single reason to pick Timmy other than defensive purposes (LeBron was a great defender but not for the duration of Timmy). I guess you can say rebounding but that was Timmy's job and after a few years, much of the responsibility in scoring and defensively have been shifted to other players such as Bowen and even Kawhi. A few of Timmy's rings were clearly not at the same intensity and effort LeBron had to go through. He's been on stacked teams. Even currently, we have to abide by the same logic. When your best player leaves a team, we judge his value by how much the team has declined. Spurs haven't lost a beat but I put dollars to donuts that if they had won a ring last year, we'd be saying "Timmy with six rings>LeBron with three." I give Timmy credit for being as great as he was but a part of me feels like he's had just way too much help playing under Pop and that amazing franchise. We're talking about Manu and Parker. I think at one point, Parker was probably a top three PG in the game and Manu was the sixth man every year. I've heard arguments that said Manu could easily have been a 25/6/6 player with his own team. Spurs run ten deep every year. I probably disagree with LeBron co-existing with Pop as fluidly as some are saying. LeBron was a huge diva when he was younger and still is to this day. They'll win many rings, though. LeBron would definitely have more than three IMO. His Finals record would be much better. I really can't find a scenario where I would pick Timmy over LeBron.

This is my take, too. I essentially think there are only two arguments for Duncan: rings and defense. But when you consider that Lebron has been the more productive postseason player and has played in fewer seasons than Duncan, the rings argument hardly seems fair. And considering that Lebron is easily among the best defensive star wing players in the history of the league, that defensive argument doesn't seem nearly as strong as all of the other factors in Lebron's favor.

An argument for Timmy seems pretty damn thin in my book. I'm not saying there's necessarily a right or wrong answer here, but I think if you take Spurs fans and Lebron haters out of the conversation, at least 80+ percent are probably taking Lebron. It would be like saying you'd prefer Hakeem over Jordan in the 90s as both guys were likely the two best players of that decade. I freaking LOVE Hakeem, and it's hard for me to be objective in conversations like this, but I'm not so naive to think Hakeem was a better player at his peak or had a better career than Jordan.

Obviously that's not an apples to apples comparison. But I think if any fan objectively looks at this debate, they'd see that there aren't a ton of arguments to made in Duncan's favor.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2017, 11:01 PM
Lolz yea lebron was way more productive post season against a pathetic Eastern conference vs Duncan's against a stacked western conference for over a decade..... :laugh2: I'm done with this tread. Hilarious.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-22-2017, 11:04 PM
Lebron.

Should have made the poll public.

Chronz
03-22-2017, 11:25 PM
What argument is there against LeBron James? He is younger specimen of physical perfection with an equally high basketball IQ who just happened to play on weaker teams the first half of his career.
Duncan was consistently great and not that far behind James. But he often had more help. He hasn't carried the burden James has.

Duncan won when he was suppose to and even when he wasn't suppose to. Bron has a superior RS statistical profile and Duncan had a tendency to raise his in playoff situations where he didn't win.

Player A puts up huge stats and see them dwindle in defeat.

Player B puts up lesser stats but wins and when he doesn't, his playoff production increases.

I know its nit picking but thats the point right. I dont know how important any of this stuff is but that would be where I would start, aside from the DPOY level impact for about 15 years.

Jeffy25
03-22-2017, 11:37 PM
Tim Duncan is my personal all-time player. I love his attitude and professionalism.

But LeBron is on an athletic level that Duncan can never catch. And he has similar durability. And is probably better solo.

I feel like Duncan would have been a great player no matter the situation. But he was able to reach all of his peak and max values by being in the perfect situation every year of his career.

Put LeBron in that situation? And he 3 peats and wins plenty of rings and MVP's.

LOb0
03-22-2017, 11:51 PM
Isn't this basically just asking who was a better player?

LeBron already is top 3-5 in most peoples lists.

europagnpilgrim
03-23-2017, 01:23 AM
I guess Kawhi is as well. That's just silly talk :facepalm:

He was loyal. He was in the league a few years, was not sure of which direction the Spurs were going, and did his due diligence as a FA. People think he had prime Robinson/Parker/Ginobili his whole career. His first 5-7 years, not at all. D-Rob was on his way out, and Parker/Manu were still finding their way. He was the team

In short, he turned down a more attractive opportunity to stay with SA. I'd say that's loyalty.

Loyalty is signing a in season or pre season extension, loyalty is not testing the free agent waters and was basically on his way out and I think he wrote a letter to the team about it

I agree that he didn't have a young Robinson but a old Robinson there is still better than most and for his age no big man was on that level, Parker/Ginobili had to find their way but they had ability/game and always came up big once they got their feet wet, Ginobili could go on mini runs by himself and Parker ends up with a Finals mvp and last I checked players like that are under the radar super valuable but no doubt the engine/soul was TD and the ship steering of Pop/Org.

Kawhi may as well be but I am not sure, and its not my silly talk since it actually came from his ex wife who said this, so it must be her silly talk


Weíve learned thereís one man in Tim Duncanís life who the NBA All-Star doesnít want the public to know about. Though we canít yet confirm his identity, we can tell you heís reported to be Duncanís longtime undercover lover!

The said bromanciní boys reportedly met back when Duncan was in college. Sources say the men lived together through college, four-years after college ó and even shacked up under the same roof as Amy, during the first two-years of the Duncanís marriage, before the baller reportedly purchased a condo for his boy. Thatís why weíre told Timmyís looking to have a gag order placed on Amy, as the coupleís divorce proceedings move forward.

ďAmy treated Tim like a b!^ch throughout their marriage because she knew he was ****ing his BFF. Tim knows Amy was cheating on him but heís willing to give her whatever she wants, because he doesnít want Amy to tell the world that heís bisexual.Ē

More-Than-Most
03-23-2017, 01:55 AM
It's hilarious watching people say it's "not even close" do you even watch a basketball? Best PF of all time s the best SF of all time. You must be new or just a youngin. Hilarious.

because its not close... It just isnt... Timmy is a top 6 player all time...lebron is already ahead of him on most peoples lists.... Lebron still has a ton of years left.... Its just not close.. Not disrespect to timmy at all he is/was amazing but lebron and jordan are going down as the 2 goats. With all those people saying well timmy doesnt *****... to be fair timmy had the goat coach his entire career and walked into the league with david ****ing robinson and so on down the list as his teammate... Roles reversed and I dont want to hear that **** well we will never know... put timmy on those cav teams and put lebron with Pop and david ****ing robinson in 98... What do you think happens?

Vinylman
03-23-2017, 07:22 AM
Duncan would've been great regardless if Pop was his coach or not. If he made all the same moves as Lebron, he probably has as many, if not more titles too. (since people are using this comparison)

If TD was in the East? Who knows

You are undervaluing POP while also ignoring the huge advantage Duncan had with the SA FO which I would say is even more important than POP

I can't stand Lebron personally but I would take him 10 out of 10 times

PowerHouse
03-23-2017, 07:58 AM
I'll wait and see how the next 6 years goes for Lebron before answering this.

Heediot
03-23-2017, 08:28 AM
:laugh: This is right up there among some of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on PSD.

"Humility is way more important than rings when you measure a player's legacy."
- No one ever

Personally I don't care if the team or player I cheer for has the most titles. There's more to life then legacy and external rewards.

You think Duncan cared about his legacy? I'm sure he did to a small extent, but not to the extent of a MJ, LeBron, Kobe. He was a simple man. Did he want to win? I'd bet he wanted to win just as much as those other guys but he wouldn't go out of his way to create discord and involve his ego to do it.

Duncan even said it himself after the Draymond kick situation. Duncan said he wants to win just as much as anyone else. He'll try just as hard as anyone else but he wouldn't resort or stoop to certain actions and levels just to win.

A guy like LeBron is paranoid and lets his legacy over-take him and his sense of inner-peace and happiness. I'm more of a spiritual guy so inner-peace, harmony and character is more important then reputation and legacy.

To each there own, I'm not trying to fall into social customs and sports norms about "legacy". Just like Duncan who approaches things with a different perspective.

Also, the thread is about who would you want on your team to build around for 20 years, and I'll take Duncan. Is he the better player, probably not. But just like finding the right partner, you can have one with all assets and **** personality or you can find one who is balanced with beauty, brains and is easy to get along with. If you don't feel that's a legit view and is of lower intelligence so be it, different strokes for different folks. I can see where your coming from and the goal of sports is to win a championship, but I'd bet my life if you asked Pops if he would take 2 titles with Timmy for 20 years vs. 6 with LeBron he'd give you the same answer as me.

kdspurman
03-23-2017, 10:24 AM
I can't find a single reason to pick Timmy other than defensive purposes (LeBron was a great defender but not for the duration of Timmy). I guess you can say rebounding but that was Timmy's job and after a few years, much of the responsibility in scoring and defensively have been shifted to other players such as Bowen and even Kawhi. A few of Timmy's rings were clearly not at the same intensity and effort LeBron had to go through. He's been on stacked teams. Even currently, we have to abide by the same logic. When your best player leaves a team, we judge his value by how much the team has declined. Spurs haven't lost a beat but I put dollars to donuts that if they had won a ring last year, we'd be saying "Timmy with six rings>LeBron with three." I give Timmy credit for being as great as he was but a part of me feels like he's had just way too much help playing under Pop and that amazing franchise. We're talking about Manu and Parker. I think at one point, Parker was probably a top three PG in the game and Manu was the sixth man every year. I've heard arguments that said Manu could easily have been a 25/6/6 player with his own team. Spurs run ten deep every year. I probably disagree with LeBron co-existing with Pop as fluidly as some are saying. LeBron was a huge diva when he was younger and still is to this day. They'll win many rings, though. LeBron would definitely have more than three IMO. His Finals record would be much better. I really can't find a scenario where I would pick Timmy over LeBron.

I won't try and change your mind, as I've said you won't go wrong with either of these.. I do want to question some of your comments tho...


I can't find a single reason to pick Timmy other than defensive purposes (LeBron was a great defender but not for the duration of Timmy). I guess you can say rebounding but that was Timmy's job and after a few years, much of the responsibility in scoring and defensively have been shifted to other players such as Bowen and even Kawhi.

Duncan always had the responsibility defensively, and early on offensively. That's unlike Lebron for the first 6-7 years of his career. Bowen was there, and Kawhi was there, but it was all designed to funnel the guys towards Duncan. It's why Pau is not starting anymore, because teams were having a field day scoring in the paint. Duncan, even at his old age was holding down the paint.


A few of Timmy's rings were clearly not at the same intensity and effort LeBron had to go through. He's been on stacked teams.

I don't understand this logic. The same intensity? Do we not include Lebron's usual 1st round bye type opponents? And even sometimes in the 2nd round? TD always had to go thru a tougher conference, so if you're going to talk about intensity, don't look solely at the finals opponents, but rather the playoffs and season in totality. Playing 2/4 or sometimes 1/4 series with "high intensity" is more impressive to you than going through the WCF like TD did many years? Lebron's toughest opponents usually were IN the finals vs the West. Lebron clearly has an advantage playing in a weaker conference, and it's not a slight at him, just a fact. I don't blame him for taking advantage of it.


I give Timmy credit for being as great as he was but a part of me feels like he's had just way too much help playing under Pop and that amazing franchise. We're talking about Manu and Parker. I think at one point, Parker was probably a top three PG in the game and Manu was the sixth man every year. I've heard arguments that said Manu could easily have been a 25/6/6 player with his own team.

Manu and TP didn't really come into their own until maybe 04-05. Parker a little later than that actually. So that was like 7-8 years after TD came into the league. Lebron 7-8 years into the league ended up going to Miami and played with more talent than TD ever had. So instead of just looking at the names he played with, you have to understand when guys really got to playing at a high level.


When your best player leaves a team, we judge his value by how much the team has declined. Spurs haven't lost a beat

They haven't, and it's due to the imprint he left on the team and organization. He set the tone for them to play and be coached the way they are now. He set the foundation.

It's admirable to do that. Or would it be better for his legacy if he was a dick his whole career and left them so they can be a lottery team? Instead he was a great teammate, took paycuts, and set the tone for a guy like Kawhi to take the reigns, and show him the way. If I'm the owner, I'm factoring in far more than what happens on the court.

Some people will disagree, and that's fine. As I said, you can't go wrong with either. But I'm going with the guy who was a winner, top 5 player of all time, and a guy who won't let his ego handcuff his franchise. A selfless superstar is a rarity, and something we may never see again.

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 10:41 AM
It absolutely points to the front office. But it also points to the culture and environment that TD helped create. If he wasn't the type of player, and person that he was.... Let's say he was more dramatic and/or a bad teammate, guys don't stay there like they did. They don't take pay cuts to try and allow more talent, or they don't allow Pop to coach them the way he does.

TD's greatness as a player and teammate is a major reason why they're still good today. I think the imprint he left for those reasons get overlooked. Yes they have tremendous scouts, and development personnel. But to get some of these guys to buy into Pop's philosophies and what not? That's due in large part to 21. It's why Pop can bench Kawhi 2 minutes into a game for screwing up, and not think 2x about it.

Look, to be a great franchise for eternity, everything needs to go right. I can agree, Duncan's disposition, and drama free personality, is literally perfect for coaching/FO purposes to work around. It's nearly unheard of for a first ballot HOF'er to be drama free in professional sports.

To be the Spurs/Patriots/Yankess (94-10'), you need:

Awesome players
Awesome coaching
Awesome front office

The players are the ones on the floor. They matter most. Duncan mattered most. I guess the point I will continue to try and make is, and you agree, using rings is stupid. Very few, and I mean we can count them on one hand, had the beneficial circumstances that Duncan did throughout his career. Please don't take that as me saying he was the lucky one. He had as much or more to do with their success as any other factor. Because without that first ballot HOF'er, you are swimming upstream. That is where it starts. The FO/Coaching staff are next.

You bring up a point I have made to my friends over the years. Pops, with a LeBron type, might not have made it. He is a no b.s. guy, no matter what the name on the back of the jersey is. Duncan, was PERFECT for Pops, and vice versa.

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 10:49 AM
What argument is there against LeBron James? He is younger specimen of physical perfection with an equally high basketball IQ who just happened to play on weaker teams the first half of his career.
Duncan was consistently great and not that far behind James. But he often had more help. He hasn't carried the burden James has.

I will always point to the 2003 playoffs when I hear this. While I agree, year in, year out, Duncan NEVER had to carry LeBron's burden, Duncan basically chucked his team on his back, and led them to a title that year..

Heediot
03-23-2017, 11:08 AM
For the first half of his career and in his prime, Duncan was more of the catalyst for the spurs success vs. Pops. As the rules progressed more towards helping perimeter players Pops became more of the catalyst as he found ways to win without relying too heavily on Duncan (at least offensively). He began employing strategies from respected european coaches like Fenerbache's Obradovic. Later on he even hired Messina. Pops figured out ways to maximize the strengths of players on his roster and the organization is sharp in finding players with skill-sets and personalities that would fit what they wanted to run.

I would lean more towards Duncan being a bigger factor in at least 3 of the chips vs, Pops. He was also so smart that whatever defensive rules the league came up with he adjusted pretty easily. Even in his late 30's his IQ helped him play faster then guys in their prime with better tools. I personally think he has a higher IQ then Bron. Bron is the better passer because of his role but Duncan is one of the smartest guys all-time. I think Duncan is more fearless, there's rarely a moment when I see/feel that he is shook even in the biggest stages/moments of the game.

Overall, I still think LeBron is a better player Ducan's fundamentals, personality and attributes may not be able to make up what LeBron brings with his physical tools.

mrblisterdundee
03-23-2017, 11:12 AM
Duncan won when he was suppose to and even when he wasn't suppose to. Bron has a superior RS statistical profile and Duncan had a tendency to raise his in playoff situations where he didn't win.
Player A puts up huge stats and see them dwindle in defeat.
Player B puts up lesser stats but wins and when he doesn't, his playoff production increases.
I know its nit picking but thats the point right. I dont know how important any of this stuff is but that would be where I would start, aside from the DPOY level impact for about 15 years.

I guess my retort would be that James is a chameleon, capable of shifting into any role a team needs. If he was on a team that needed a lock-down DPOY candidate getting a couple blocks and more than 10 rebounds per game, he could be that, like a better version of Draymond Green.
I can't see Duncan running a team's offense, or even stretching his own offense out to the three-point line. James has done that, which has lessened his defensive impact. Nobody can do it all on both ends of the court.
When great players have more talent around them, they become more efficient and lethal. Replace Duncan and put James at power forward for the Spurs on the same timeline, with the same coach and teammates throughout the years, and you're clearly getting more rings than Duncan did.

kdspurman
03-23-2017, 11:18 AM
I guess my retort would be that James is a chameleon, capable of shifting into any role a team needs. If he was on a team that needed a lock-down DPOY candidate getting a couple blocks and more than 10 rebounds per game, he could be that, like a better version of Draymond Green.
I can't see Duncan running a team's offense, or even stretching his own offense out to the three-point line. LeBron's had to do that, which has lessened his defensive impact. Nobody can do it all.
When great players have more talent around them, they become more efficient and lethal. Replace Duncan and put James at power forward for the Spurs on the same timeline, with the same coach and teammates throughout the years, and you're clearly getting more rings than Duncan did.

There's nothing clear about that lol We haven't yet seen Lebron go through the WC gauntlet. +, obviously he has to fit with the team like TD did. I just can't understand why people don't understand how locker room fit factor into this kind of stuff.

And Duncan was a PF/C... Those guys typically aren't point guards. You don't see Lebron playing Center and locking down the paint. They play 2 different positions, you can't compare them like that.

Heediot
03-23-2017, 11:19 AM
Replace Duncan and put James at power forward for the Spurs on the same timeline, with the same coach and teammates throughout the years, and you're clearly getting more rings than Duncan did.

Sometimes Duncan was actually the center. You could make the case offensively they could of been better but defensively I would disagree. His rim protection was vital to their success. If he was still balling defensively in his late 30's imagine him earlier in his career (especially his prime)?

Heediot
03-23-2017, 11:26 AM
There's nothing clear about that lol We haven't yet seen Lebron go through the WC gauntlet. +, obviously he has to fit with the team like TD did. I just can't understand why people don't understand how locker room fit factor into this kind of stuff.

And Duncan was a PF/C... Those guys typically aren't point guards. You don't see Lebron playing Center and locking down the paint. They play 2 different positions, you can't compare them like that.

Intangibles is important to me. When your leader and number 1 guy is selfless, fearless, the hardest worker that trickles down and impacts everyone else. The guys is as non-chalant and non-manipulative as you can get for being a borderline top 5 all timer. Duncan works with what he has and flows with his environment, his ability to create harmony is an under-rated aspect of leadership.

KnicksorBust
03-23-2017, 11:26 AM
I had multi-quoting people but there was just too much to catch up on here.
Duncan's leadership had nothing to do with Pop though. It was his ability to connect with his teammates on a different level. It's just the kind of guy he was. He is a far different type of person/teammate than Lebron. Both have been very successful, they've just done it differently.

Pop has been great, but Duncan changed that franchise. He is the reason they are where they are right now. Without him being the kind of teammate/person he was, allowing Pop to coach him as if he were the 15th man, no favoritism, etc... He set the tone pretty much, and Pop has said that over and over again.

After TD retired, there were many stories about how great a teammate he was. It's the kind of person he is. The dude graduated with a degree in Psychology, so he had a much different type of intellect when it comes to dealing with different types of personalities and knowing how to reach his teammates.

I'm not gonna knock anyone who chooses Lebron tho. But people choosing TD is not crazy either. He came into the league and was an immediate MVP/All NBA/All Defense player

I disagreed with MBT about the leadership and was glad you stepped in. I loved your statement about Duncan being coached as if he were the 15th guy on the teammate and just accepting it. I love the way Pop coaches but can you honestly see him chewing out Shaq and Shaq just stoically taking it? I feel like there are certain all-time greats that would not have handled being coached that way nearly as well as Duncan. If the greatest PF all-time owns his mistakes and listens to the coach then everyone else has to fall in line. That type of leadership is UNDERRATED especially in today's game. Players are so entitled.


I can't find a single reason to pick Timmy other than defensive purposes (LeBron was a great defender but not for the duration of Timmy). I guess you can say rebounding but that was Timmy's job and after a few years, much of the responsibility in scoring and defensively have been shifted to other players such as Bowen and even Kawhi. A few of Timmy's rings were clearly not at the same intensity and effort LeBron had to go through. He's been on stacked teams. Even currently, we have to abide by the same logic. When your best player leaves a team, we judge his value by how much the team has declined. Spurs haven't lost a beat but I put dollars to donuts that if they had won a ring last year, we'd be saying "Timmy with six rings>LeBron with three." I give Timmy credit for being as great as he was but a part of me feels like he's had just way too much help playing under Pop and that amazing franchise. We're talking about Manu and Parker. I think at one point, Parker was probably a top three PG in the game and Manu was the sixth man every year. I've heard arguments that said Manu could easily have been a 25/6/6 player with his own team. Spurs run ten deep every year. I probably disagree with LeBron co-existing with Pop as fluidly as some are saying. LeBron was a huge diva when he was younger and still is to this day. They'll win many rings, though. LeBron would definitely have more than three IMO. His Finals record would be much better. I really can't find a scenario where I would pick Timmy over LeBron.

Yeah with the exception of 50% of the game (defense) there is no argument. :)


Older rules - Timmy
Newer rules - LeBron.

Personally I would take 2 rings with Timmy with he way he approaches the game and how humble he is vs. 6 with James.

Good point. With older rules it's tougher for me but in the current era where guards/playmakers rule the league and it's all drive/kick or pick and roll you want LeBron.


Isn't this basically just asking who was a better player?

LeBron already is top 3-5 in most peoples lists.

My all-time list is usually based off accomplishments and comparing resumes/peaks/etc. This is a different debate.


Sometimes Duncan was actually the center. You could make the case offensively they could of been better but defensively I would disagree. His rim protection was vital to their success. If he was still balling defensively in his late 30's imagine him earlier in his career (especially his prime)?

Exactly. Let's not discount how valuable Duncan was as a rim protector. One of the few players in NBA History who could average more blocks per game than fouls per game. I challenge you to find a list of rim protectors who can do that now.

Heediot
03-23-2017, 12:52 PM
Even currently, we have to abide by the same logic. When your best player leaves a team, we judge his value by how much the team has declined. Spurs haven't lost a beat but I put dollars to donuts that if they had won a ring last year, we'd be saying "Timmy with six rings>LeBron with three." I give Timmy credit for being as great as he was but a part of me feels like he's had just way too much help playing under Pop and that amazing franchise.

If he didn't take less the MLE or roughly around that much, you think the Spurs can sign Aldridge? It's not just Duncan, guys like TP and Manu sacrificed for the betterment of the team. As the face of the franchise, his humble leadership and sacrificial style makes it easier for others to follow suit. Pops does deserve a tonne of credit, but I think people are under-estimating how influential Duncan is to the winning and harmonious culture.

celtNYpatsHeels
03-23-2017, 01:03 PM
It's Duncan. I read a lot of these posts and it's all what if Lebron had Robinson, what if lebron had pop, Duncan came into a perfect situation...

Well I'll flip it and say what if Duncan was playing in the East against all the garbage lebron played against since 2011... Duncan wouldn't have 5 rings he'd have 8 to 10

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 01:05 PM
It's Duncan. I read a lot of these posts and it's all what if Lebron had Robinson, what if lebron had pop, Duncan came into a perfect situation...

Well I'll flip it and say what if Duncan was playing in the East against all the garbage lebron played against since 2011... Duncan wouldn't have 5 rings he'd have 8 to 10

but the argument goes both ways. LeBron out west has better teammates, more rest, less burden.

I always have to throw this in there, but go check out Magic's path to the finals in the 80's, if you think LeBron had it so easy.....

Both ways dude

MarkieMark48
03-23-2017, 01:17 PM
It's Duncan. I read a lot of these posts and it's all what if Lebron had Robinson, what if lebron had pop, Duncan came into a perfect situation...

Well I'll flip it and say what if Duncan was playing in the East against all the garbage lebron played against since 2011... Duncan wouldn't have 5 rings he'd have 8 to 10

If David Robinson doesn't break his foot in 1996 that's a real possibility... I doubt the 76ers are the clusterfluff they are now

Heediot
03-23-2017, 01:21 PM
It's Duncan. I read a lot of these posts and it's all what if Lebron had Robinson, what if lebron had pop, Duncan came into a perfect situation...

Well I'll flip it and say what if Duncan was playing in the East against all the garbage lebron played against since 2011... Duncan wouldn't have 5 rings he'd have 8 to 10

I remember the Celtics were the worst team in the league with two high lottery picks the year Duncan was drafted. They lost out on Duncan in the Lottery. They ended up with Billups and ron mercer, which isn't too bad in hindsight if both were there for longer, especially Billups. But Damn, Rick Pitino was probably pissed, well not too pissed as they gave him a massive contract (he was laughing to the bank at the end of the day).

effen5
03-23-2017, 01:26 PM
Duncan for me for a few reasons.

1) Lebron hasn't really been challenged in the east. Duncan has gone through a gauntlet in the east and won 50+ games every ****ing season...this is just outrageous.
2) Duncan went through a a rebuild and still won consistently.
He went from Robinson, Elie, Elliott, etc to Manu and TP? And Manu and TP had to grow into their positions, they werent in their primes like Wade or Bosh
3) After dealing with the media circus of Derrick Rose, I would love a player personality like Duncan.
4) 5 Rings v 3 Rings

KnicksorBust
03-23-2017, 02:19 PM
LeBron winning the East every year shouldn't be a knock on him. I'm sorry he basically achieves best case scenario with all his rosters. Garbage to the Finals. Talent wins Rings.

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 02:20 PM
Duncan for me for a few reasons.

1) Lebron hasn't really been challenged in the east. Duncan has gone through a gauntlet in the east and won 50+ games every ****ing season...this is just outrageous.
2) Duncan went through a a rebuild and still won consistently.
He went from Robinson, Elie, Elliott, etc to Manu and TP? And Manu and TP had to grow into their positions, they werent in their primes like Wade or Bosh
3) After dealing with the media circus of Derrick Rose, I would love a player personality like Duncan.
4) 5 Rings v 3 Rings

really?

celtNYpatsHeels
03-23-2017, 02:54 PM
but the argument goes both ways. LeBron out west has better teammates, more rest, less burden.

I always have to throw this in there, but go check out Magic's path to the finals in the 80's, if you think LeBron had it so easy.....

Both ways dude

It does go both ways I agree. I was just pointing out that a lot of people were saying what if lebron had pop. And what if lebron bla bla bla...

And lebron out west would have better teammates? Since 2009 He has played with wade, bosh, shaq, Antwan Jamison, Kyrie, and Love. Not to mention the secondary guys like ray Allen, ilgauskis, mo Williams, rashard Lewis, jr smith, Tristan Thompson, and that's just off the top of my head.

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 03:13 PM
It does go both ways I agree. I was just pointing out that a lot of people were saying what if lebron had pop. And what if lebron bla bla bla...

And lebron out west would have better teammates? Since 2009 He has played with wade, bosh, shaq, Antwan Jamison, Kyrie, and Love. Not to mention the secondary guys like ray Allen, ilgauskis, mo Williams, rashard Lewis, jr smith, Tristan Thompson, and that's just off the top of my head.

LeBron's first 7 years, nobody can expect him to have actually challenged for a title with his roster. Ginoboli, Robinson (even later DRob), Parker, are all better than anything LeBron played with in Cleveland the first time around, and by a LOT. Pops takes a total **** on Mike Brown.

Funny thing is, LeBron has as many Finals MVP's as Duncan. Can you imagine a single team, that he ever played for, in which he didn't have to be his teams best player, and the best player in the series for his team to win a title?

We can guess LeBron would have win more titles with Pops, DRob, Manu, Parker, and the rest of the bunch. But we are also guessing that Duncan could handle the year in, year out burden, and the year in, year out burden of being THE best player in each and every series his teams win.

I am willing to bet more on LeBron winning with more help, than I am another player carrying that load for 13 years, with a crap roster for the first 7.

D Blue987
03-23-2017, 03:16 PM
LeBron winning the East every year shouldn't be a knock on him. I'm sorry he basically achieves best case scenario with all his rosters. Garbage to the Finals. Talent wins Rings.

Yeah ever since he got knocked out by the big 3 Celtics he went that same route every year since forming his own super teams. The current Cavs team though isn't constructed as well as those Miami Heat teams imo.

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 03:18 PM
Yeah ever since he got knocked out by the big 3 Celtics he went that same route every year since forming his own super teams. The current Cavs team though isn't constructed as well as those Miami Heat teams imo.

I actually think the current Cavs team is constructed better than those Miami teams, it just isn't the same LeBron anymore, so his regular season performance isn't as good. Wade was very overlapping, skillset wise, and Bosh isn't the floor spreader Love is. I do think defensively they were a little bit better constructed though. And the older LeBron needs a guy like Irving, who can go get his own buckets and give LeBron some rest at times.

kdspurman
03-23-2017, 03:23 PM
People are severely overrating young Manu and Parker. It's silly to just look at names and assume TD had those guys in their primes his whole career. Parker was benched in the 03 finals clincher for Speedy Claxton for crying out loud. Their 2nd best player in 2000 may have been Derek Anderson.

It was the Duncan show early on in his career. Until people realize that, it'll be tough to change the perception.

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 03:37 PM
People are severely overrating young Manu and Parker. It's silly to just look at names and assume TD had those guys in their primes his whole career. Parker was benched in the 03 finals clincher for Speedy Claxton for crying out loud. Their 2nd best player in 2000 may have been Derek Anderson.

It was the Duncan show early on in his career. Until people realize that, it'll be tough to change the perception.

I brought up 2003 earlier:


I will always point to the 2003 playoffs when I hear this. While I agree, year in, year out, Duncan NEVER had to carry LeBron's burden, Duncan basically chucked his team on his back, and led them to a title that year..

However, Duncan wasn't a one man show dude. Robinson was still a beast in 1997-98'. He and Avery were as good as Duncan that year in the playoffs. Robinson was on par with Duncan in year 2, their first title, as well. Sean Elliot was integral in those playoffs, and was crucial for them in big moments. Hell DRob was even good in limited minutes as late as 00-01' (16-12 in the playoffs), and his teams defense was awesome. Obviously led by Duncan, Robinson was statistically on par yet again in the 01' playoffs, and Antonio Daniels went nuts.

You are correct, in that Manu/Parker didn't become the dominant players they are known for until somewhere around 2003-04', but Duncan had loads of help man. hell the only reason you got Duncan is injuries besieged a team that had won 121 games in 2 years. The 2003 title is the lone title run, where people can rightly point to Duncan, and say, "dude, he carried a roster to a chip".

I get your frustration that a lot of people have no depth into the "Tim had star help" argument, but cmon, Duncan was as fortunate as only a handful of other superstars have ever been. Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan. That is the short list of modern superstars that just had a great scenario. It doesn't mean they weren't arguably the biggest part of winning, it just means, they lucked out..

Shammyguy3
03-23-2017, 04:20 PM
Coin flip, but I would prefer Duncan for that rim protection and with how I know he aged for 20 years. This is Lebron's 14th season. However unlikely, he may age poorly whereas Duncan did not. Duncan was still an integral piece to a ring in his late 30s.

I also have to say, for this to be fair we must assume that Lebron goes to college for 4 years, or Duncan never goes to college. How would the players' career paths change, specifically in regards to their performance?

RocketLoc80
03-23-2017, 04:38 PM
Skip Bayless just said If Lebron loses this finals his legacy is forever ruined and he will never be a top 10 player ever? Thoughts?

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 04:58 PM
edit-nm

Hawkeye15
03-23-2017, 05:01 PM
Coin flip, but I would prefer Duncan for that rim protection and with how I know he aged for 20 years. This is Lebron's 14th season. However unlikely, he may age poorly whereas Duncan did not. Duncan was still an integral piece to a ring in his late 30s.

I also have to say, for this to be fair we must assume that Lebron goes to college for 4 years, or Duncan never goes to college. How would the players' career paths change, specifically in regards to their performance?

then we also have to ask, what if LeBron has a team in place that allows him to sit games by age 30, reduce minutes by age 28, then again at 32, so he can age easier?

LeBron, at age 32 has played nearly 10,000 more minutes than Duncan did by that age. So he shouldn't be expected to age the same, like at all..

Duncan's college minutes- 4,492 minutes, 128 games, in 4 years.
LeBron's NBA minutes in that span-13,000+ minutes, 316 games, in 4 years.

By the time Duncan started game 1, LeBron was way ahead of him on mileage at age 22.

FlashBolt
03-23-2017, 06:30 PM
I had multi-quoting people but there was just too much to catch up on here.

I disagreed with MBT about the leadership and was glad you stepped in. I loved your statement about Duncan being coached as if he were the 15th guy on the teammate and just accepting it. I love the way Pop coaches but can you honestly see him chewing out Shaq and Shaq just stoically taking it? I feel like there are certain all-time greats that would not have handled being coached that way nearly as well as Duncan. If the greatest PF all-time owns his mistakes and listens to the coach then everyone else has to fall in line. That type of leadership is UNDERRATED especially in today's game. Players are so entitled.



Yeah with the exception of 50% of the game (defense) there is no argument. :)



Good point. With older rules it's tougher for me but in the current era where guards/playmakers rule the league and it's all drive/kick or pick and roll you want LeBron.



My all-time list is usually based off accomplishments and comparing resumes/peaks/etc. This is a different debate.



Exactly. Let's not discount how valuable Duncan was as a rim protector. One of the few players in NBA History who could average more blocks per game than fouls per game. I challenge you to find a list of rim protectors who can do that now.

Well, let's see why Duncan is regarded as a better defender.

1) He plays frontcourt. Protect the rim at all costs.
2) He doesn't have to chase guards around. Do you know how much energy he saves on BOTH the offensive/defensive end? With the way the league is played lately, perimeter defenders are probably more effective than rim protectors -- which usually is never the case.
3) He plays on the Spurs. Pop preaches defense. Look at every player they've had and then tell me they don't play exceptional defense. Even by Manu standards.

He's probably better defensively in their career but offensively, it's not even close what LeBron can do for a team. And LeBron at his peak (2010-2014) was probably the best perimeter defender.

DanG
03-23-2017, 06:48 PM
a) A steady system with one of the greatest coaches in NBA history.
b) Different rosters, different coaches.

I think LeBron comes out with a more successful career than Duncan in both scenarios.

Bruno
03-23-2017, 07:33 PM
Duncan.

Duncan can dominate a basketball game without vortexing his teammates into defined roles or marginalized versions of their best selves. thats the under appreciated benefit of being a Duncan quality two way big.

One Nut Kruk
03-23-2017, 08:13 PM
Isn't this basically just asking who was a better player?

LeBron already is top 3-5 in most peoples lists.

No, I don't think it is.

Lebron is without a doubt the better, more athletic player but there is more to the game than that. Don't get me wrong, you can't go wrong with either guy here but if I'm building a team for 20 years around a guy, I'll take the one that is not an arrogant, self indulged, drama queen.

Nobody has the answer to this but personally, I find it hard to believe that Lebron would have been accepting of Pop's coaching style as he entered the league.

But if you're going to give me Lebron, I'm not gonna complain.

krazylegz
03-23-2017, 08:19 PM
No, I don't think it is.

Lebron is without a doubt the better, more athletic player but there is more to the game than that. Don't get me wrong, you can't go wrong with either guy here but if I'm building a team for 20 years around a guy, I'll take the one that is not an arrogant, self indulged, drama queen.

Nobody has the answer to this but personally, I find it hard to believe that Lebron would have been accepting of Pop's coaching style as he entered the league.

But if you're going to give me Lebron, I'm not gonna complain.

your opinion,but again,lebron was an absolute great student under coach dambrot...and then coach joyce at akron st. vincent/st. marys...hell,he was even a great student under paul silas in his first year with the cavs....so why would he change his mentality under a guy who DEMANDS respect...doesnt add up to me....coach pop would have made lebron a BETTER player than he is now...we can never truely know i guess,but to think that lebron wouldnt listen to pop and look the other way is kindve silly

More-Than-Most
03-23-2017, 08:33 PM
should have made the votes public .. whenever it comes to lebron votes should be public because we know the same people are voting because of hate and without argument


I think a better argument would be Shaq vs timmy when building a team... Prime Shaq as the most dominate thing ever but timmy has the longevity of sustained greatness.

JasonJohnHorn
03-23-2017, 09:03 PM
As an owner: LBJ. He's going to sell more tickets.

As a GM or coach: Duncan.

A big man who can pass and play elite defense and rebound like a champ and has a strong post and mid-range game is infinitely easier to build around than and wing player.

Once you get a team of younger guys in place around a wing, you can really string together some runs, like Chicago did and like Cleveland is doing, but it is hard. People forget, but in 1990, people were wondering out loud whether Jordan had what it took to win. He'd been in the league for the better part of a decade and had never made it to the finals, and despite his stellar personal stats, was unable to translate that in a ring. This is why didn't get the MVP in a year where he clearly deserved it.

So even for Jordan, the greatest wing player ever, and according to many, the greatest player ever, it took a LONG time to build a contender around him. Thankfully, most of the pieces around him were younger than him, so once the team was in place, they could string a run together. If they were in a spot where the pieces they build simply didn't work, and they were in a spot like Orlando and Houston were after several years with McGrady and not title runs, then it's back to the drawing board with a franchise player on the wrong side of 30.


A guy like Duncan, or Hakeem... they make it easy to build around. You can succeed with starters and roll players and limited All-Stars, but with LBJ or Jordan... you need elite players. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman....once Duncan lost D-Rob (and even for the second title run when D-Rob was a shell of his former self), Duncan NEVER had a player as good as Pippen on his team... and he never had a player who impacted the game as much as Rodman. The same could be said of Bosh and Wade. I don't think anybody Duncan played with during his last 4 titles were playing at the level Bosh and Wade gave Duncan. I would say that Leonard gave Duncan more than Kyre or Love give LBJ, but it's close, and LBJ had TWO guys at a level near what Leonard did: Duncan only had Leonard.


There some important contexts I haven't included here... but at the end of the day, a big man who can defend, rebound, pass and score is far easier to build around than a wing/backcourt player who also excels at those same things.

LAKERMANIA
03-23-2017, 10:06 PM
Lebron is better than Duncan for sure, but if I had to pick who to start a team with I have to go with Duncan. Duncan's ability to lead the team without any problems with teammates would be crucial for me. I wouldn't complain if I were to take Lebron though.

GREATNESS ONE
03-23-2017, 10:44 PM
but the argument goes both ways. LeBron out west has better teammates, more rest, less burden.

I always have to throw this in there, but go check out Magic's path to the finals in the 80's, if you think LeBron had it so easy.....

Both ways dude

Lolololol @ better teammates.

GREATNESS ONE
03-23-2017, 10:45 PM
LeBron winning the East every year shouldn't be a knock on him. I'm sorry he basically achieves best case scenario with all his rosters. Garbage to the Finals. Talent wins Rings.

Talent loses rings too. :laugh2:

Chronz
03-24-2017, 02:17 AM
I guess my retort would be that James is a chameleon, capable of shifting into any role a team needs. If he was on a team that needed a lock-down DPOY candidate getting a couple blocks and more than 10 rebounds per game, he could be that, like a better version of Draymond Green.
I can't see Duncan running a team's offense, or even stretching his own offense out to the three-point line. James has done that, which has lessened his defensive impact. Nobody can do it all on both ends of the court.
When great players have more talent around them, they become more efficient and lethal. Replace Duncan and put James at power forward for the Spurs on the same timeline, with the same coach and teammates throughout the years, and you're clearly getting more rings than Duncan did.

Except he loathed battling in the paint even when his teams could've used more of him as a small ball 4. Even in Miami when he made a concentrated effort to play more of a bigs position, he split the job with Battier.

Duncan doesn't need to run his teams offense outside of his own positioning. The easiest thing to do is find a competent perimeter player to get you into your halfcourt sets, once you're in there, its up to the fulcrum of your offense to draw the attention to open up shots for the team. Duncan could do that, maybe not to the level of Bron but they each had their strengths.

My thing is, who was better in defeat?

Hawkeye15
03-24-2017, 11:06 AM
Lolololol @ better teammates.

huh?

KnickNyKnick
03-24-2017, 11:17 AM
my answer to this question may change when lebrons career is over lol. But Right now its T.D.

Shammyguy3
03-24-2017, 12:33 PM
then we also have to ask, what if LeBron has a team in place that allows him to sit games by age 30, reduce minutes by age 28, then again at 32, so he can age easier?

LeBron, at age 32 has played nearly 10,000 more minutes than Duncan did by that age. So he shouldn't be expected to age the same, like at all..

Duncan's college minutes- 4,492 minutes, 128 games, in 4 years.
LeBron's NBA minutes in that span-13,000+ minutes, 316 games, in 4 years.

By the time Duncan started game 1, LeBron was way ahead of him on mileage at age 22.

Also fair points

MarkieMark48
03-24-2017, 12:33 PM
Talent loses rings too. :laugh2:

I don't think any player in the history of the league has won the championship every year they have played

YAALREADYKNO
03-24-2017, 12:54 PM
Lebron and I'm not even thinking twice about it tbh

infinity2152
03-24-2017, 01:34 PM
TD all day. First, with LJ you have to worry about him leaving every 3-4 years. By year 20 if he's still here, you're paying him $100 mill a year. He's bailed on his team, embarassing them with the "Decision" and called out coaches, ownership, and teammates repeatedly. Basketball is a team sport, and Duncan is far better as a teammate. And TD/Wade/Bosh wins 70+games int East, and kills LBJ/Parker/Ginobli.

europagnpilgrim
03-24-2017, 02:04 PM
Owner of a team = Lebron

GM/President = coin toss but leaning heavily toward Duncan, being that a dominant big has been the trump card blueprint since way back in the Mikan/Wilt/Russell days, that's a combined 18 titles right there anchored by those bigs

but you cant go wrong with either player since its all about revenue and then titles but Lebron would generate far more revenue since he is basically a Hollywood/commercial superstar playing the game that people would flock more to see play than a Duncan, its like Wilt back in the day as he owned the gate/ticket sales/solo dominance while Russell owned the titles

FlashBolt
03-24-2017, 02:36 PM
TD all day. First, with LJ you have to worry about him leaving every 3-4 years. By year 20 if he's still here, you're paying him $100 mill a year. He's bailed on his team, embarassing them with the "Decision" and called out coaches, ownership, and teammates repeatedly. Basketball is a team sport, and Duncan is far better as a teammate. And TD/Wade/Bosh wins 70+games int East, and kills LBJ/Parker/Ginobli.

LBJ/Parker/Gino/Kawhi/overall better roster... vs a hobbled Wade and Bosh? Stop..

HandsOnTheWheel
03-24-2017, 03:29 PM
TD all day. First, with LJ you have to worry about him leaving every 3-4 years. By year 20 if he's still here, you're paying him $100 mill a year. He's bailed on his team, embarassing them with the "Decision" and called out coaches, ownership, and teammates repeatedly. Basketball is a team sport, and Duncan is far better as a teammate. And TD/Wade/Bosh wins 70+games int East, and kills LBJ/Parker/Ginobli.

:yawn:

mrblisterdundee
03-24-2017, 09:36 PM
There's nothing clear about that lol We haven't yet seen Lebron go through the WC gauntlet. +, obviously he has to fit with the team like TD did. I just can't understand why people don't understand how locker room fit factor into this kind of stuff.

And Duncan was a PF/C... Those guys typically aren't point guards. You don't see Lebron playing Center and locking down the paint. They play 2 different positions, you can't compare them like that.

Obviously if James took the place of Duncan, the team would be different. But I think they would be better. James can easily fit on the Spurs, even if he's on Duncan's timeline, and he's two years younger.
Stick him at either forward spot with prime Parker and Ginobili. When James turns 33 and Leonard comes in, slide him up to power forward. That combination would be more terrifying than any Duncan-led team.

kdspurman
03-24-2017, 09:41 PM
Obviously if James took the place of Duncan, the team would be different. But I think they would be better. James can easily fit on the Spurs, even if he's on Duncan's timeline, and he's two years younger.
Stick him at either forward spot with prime Parker and Ginobili. When James turns 33 and Leonard comes in, slide him up to power forward. That combination would be more terrifying than any Duncan-led team.

Parker and Ginobili arguably don't get to be the types of players they are w/o Duncan.. It's not just about on court skills, that's the part that people keep failing to realize. There is a locker-room chemistry and what not that just fits. TD obviously made those guys on the court better due to drawing double teams and what not, but he was also the kind of guy that allowed them to grow, even while in his prime years and understood he could sacrifice his own numbers for that to happen.

He's one of the most unique superstars ever in that respect, and Lebron just isn't the same in that respect. It's the same argument I use when people say "Put KG on the Spurs and it's the same outcome" nah... It doesn't work like that.

Jeffy25
03-24-2017, 10:58 PM
Obviously if James took the place of Duncan, the team would be different. But I think they would be better. James can easily fit on the Spurs, even if he's on Duncan's timeline, and he's two years younger.
Stick him at either forward spot with prime Parker and Ginobili. When James turns 33 and Leonard comes in, slide him up to power forward. That combination would be more terrifying than any Duncan-led team.

agreed

lol, please
03-24-2017, 11:23 PM
Duncan and it's not close.

Give me loyalty, leadership, character, and consistency at a high level, over athleticism, immaturity, treachery, and a lack of leadership every day of the week, twice on Sundays, and three times on a Monday morning.

KnickNyKnick
03-26-2017, 12:09 AM
The Type of talent Lebron has had to be surrounded with to win titles is Absurd compared to duncan. I voted Duncan, because right now hes the best choice. Lebrons career is far from over so its a better debate then.

You can stack up all the MVP's Lebron has but it still dosnt compare to 5 rings if were thinking in a franchises viewpoint. Duncan's influence in that Spurs team is inconsiderately being overlooked by many.


We have to wait and see how things pan out the rest of Lebrons career. But remember that Duncan never left and kept making it work once Robinson was gone.

aman_13
03-26-2017, 01:03 AM
LeBron to me is simply the better player, so I will take him.

+1

More-Than-Most
03-26-2017, 04:09 AM
The Type of talent Lebron has had to be surrounded with to win titles is Absurd compared to duncan. I voted Duncan, because right now hes the best choice. Lebrons career is far from over so its a better debate then.

You can stack up all the MVP's Lebron has but it still dosnt compare to 5 rings if were thinking in a franchises viewpoint. Duncan's influence in that Spurs team is inconsiderately being overlooked by many.


We have to wait and see how things pan out the rest of Lebrons career. But remember that Duncan never left and kept making it work once Robinson was gone.

I find these types of posts so hilarious... So Duncan never left a team that had david ****ing robinson when he joined? A team that fell into Gino/Parker/Horry/Khawi etc etc etc? NO ****ING WONDER he didnt leave.

effen5
03-26-2017, 04:28 AM
I find these types of posts so hilarious... So Duncan never left a team that had david ****ing robinson when he joined? A team that fell into Gino/Parker/Horry/Khawi etc etc etc? NO ****ING WONDER he didnt leave.

Think about how Duncan can surround himself around those players...

One gino and Parker had to be molded to what they are now. Parker was extremely raw.

Two, td has been taking pay cuts...not just a small pay cut like wade or Lebron did to join Miami but massive pay cuts.

More-Than-Most
03-26-2017, 04:36 AM
also lets not forget the pressure... ya know the ******** pressure/clutch crap... every player got a pass the second lebron was drafted on a pressure stand point... nobody played under the pressure lebron did... but yea that means nothing as well.

ewing
03-26-2017, 08:10 AM
also lets not forget the pressure... ya know the ******** pressure/clutch crap... every player got a pass the second lebron was drafted on a pressure stand point... nobody played under the pressure lebron did... but yea that means nothing as well.


He did anoint himself "King" James before he graduated HS.

kdspurman
03-26-2017, 12:41 PM
Think about how Duncan can surround himself around those players...

One gino and Parker had to be molded to what they are now. Parker was extremely raw.

Two, td has been taking pay cuts...not just a small pay cut like wade or Lebron did to join Miami but massive pay cuts.

Thank you. People think Parker was a finals MVP type player when he got in the league apparently.

I've said it several times, if people looked at production vs the names he played with, maybe they'd think differently. It took time for the "big 3" to happen

kdspurman
03-26-2017, 12:44 PM
He did anoint himself "King" James before he graduated HS.

Yea... That kind of stuff doesn't help his cause. Some of it he brought on himself.

And tbh, it seemed to get magnified once he left for Miami. Which doesn't sound too crazy. What do you expect? If you're the best player in the league and play poorly when you're expected to play well... With how social media is, of course you'll get some heat and overreactions for that.

Just as we've seen with the Warriors lately too. Expectations are pretty high

Sly Guy
03-26-2017, 03:48 PM
lbj. Remember, the drama for lbj started by leaving cleveland. If you've got him for 20 years without that one moment of time where he decided to take his talents.....Then essentially you've got a lot less drama to deal with

IKnowHoops
03-26-2017, 04:50 PM
Is this a serious question?

Its like asking, would you rather have Kobe or Rasheed for 20 years?

This is a no brainer unless Duncan is your favorite player. And I love Duncan, but this is actually ridiculous.

More-Than-Most
03-26-2017, 05:23 PM
lbj. Remember, the drama for lbj started by leaving cleveland. If you've got him for 20 years without that one moment of time where he decided to take his talents.....Then essentially you've got a lot less drama to deal with

so you mean if he ever got drafted by a team that had Robinson and molded parkers/Gino/Khawi and had horry and so on... Agreed... People talking about the drama aspect really dont understand how the owner abused lebrons talents.

Shammyguy3
03-26-2017, 05:28 PM
Is this a serious question?

Its like asking, would you rather have Kobe or Rasheed for 20 years?

This is a no brainer unless Duncan is your favorite player. And I love Duncan, but this is actually ridiculous.

That's an awful comparison

flea
03-26-2017, 05:39 PM
Duncan no question. Better scorer, defender, rebounder, teammate, IQ and way more versatile. If you're a box score masturbator or shoe salesman you take James but if you care about winning at all costs it's a no brainer.

I'd probably take Magic and Bird over Lebron too but that would be a closer discussion.

GREATNESS ONE
03-26-2017, 06:44 PM
He did anoint himself "King" James before he graduated HS.

And "The Chosen One"

valade16
03-26-2017, 07:01 PM
Duncan no question. Better scorer, defender, rebounder, teammate, IQ and way more versatile. If you're a box score masturbator or shoe salesman you take James but if you care about winning at all costs it's a no brainer.

I'd probably take Magic and Bird over Lebron too but that would be a closer discussion.

LeBron scores more points on better efficiency so who cares if Duncan is a "better scorer". It'd be like saying getting 89/100 on a test is better than 95/100 because 89 is a "better number". Completely meaningless.

valade16
03-26-2017, 07:04 PM
Bird won 3 titles = winner

LeBron wins 3 titles = not a winner

Something smells funny here (and please, PLEASE try to bring up how stacked LeBron's teams were, I'd love to hear that argument when discussing Bird's Celtics).

mrblisterdundee
03-26-2017, 10:08 PM
Parker and Ginobili arguably don't get to be the types of players they are w/o Duncan.. It's not just about on court skills, that's the part that people keep failing to realize. There is a locker-room chemistry and what not that just fits. TD obviously made those guys on the court better due to drawing double teams and what not, but he was also the kind of guy that allowed them to grow, even while in his prime years and understood he could sacrifice his own numbers for that to happen.

He's one of the most unique superstars ever in that respect, and Lebron just isn't the same in that respect. It's the same argument I use when people say "Put KG on the Spurs and it's the same outcome" nah... It doesn't work like that.

Locking him in with the same teammates was a bad comparison on my part. Obviously James would change many of the subsequent acquisitions.
But I think you're failing to realize the effect of Popovich, who has been around as long as Duncan and is a master at fully taking advantage of the talent he has. I think James simply gives him more talent and versatility, even if he can't recreate the post defense.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 10:50 AM
Spurs are dominating right now. Without Timmy. They probably would've been a fckin damn amazing team without Timmy as well.

No team that LeBron has been with would have been amazing if not for LeBron.

This is too easy and it's LeBron. I cannot see a scenario that puts Timmy above LeBron. LeBron beats him statistically at every category in advanced metrics. (PER/WS/VORP).

It's silly that it's even this close. When your coach can turn Patty Mills into a starting PG, then you're working with a coach who understands how to win REGARDLESS of who he has. AKA why the Spurs are still dominating today.

Just reading the thread, those who always hated LeBron are voting for Timmy. Seriously can't have a legitimate poll if LeBron is in it. Those saying LeBron needs a specific system.. That's because LeBron plays every role for his team while Duncan doesn't. Duncan's role is to stay in the paint, block shots, and grab rebounds. Score occasionally (it was for a bulk of his career). LeBron had to have a specific cast because he was never playing under the tutelage of the great Popovich -- who handled the roster. What would the difference be if prime LeBron was playing for the Spurs instead of Kawhi right now?

kdspurman
03-27-2017, 11:12 AM
Spurs are dominating right now. Without Timmy. They probably would've been a fckin damn amazing team without Timmy as well.

No team that LeBron has been with would have been amazing if not for LeBron.

This is too easy and it's LeBron. I cannot see a scenario that puts Timmy above LeBron. LeBron beats him statistically at every category in advanced metrics. (PER/WS/VORP).

It's silly that it's even this close. When your coach can turn Patty Mills into a starting PG, then you're working with a coach who understands how to win REGARDLESS of who he has. AKA why the Spurs are still dominating today.

Just reading the thread, those who always hated LeBron are voting for Timmy. Seriously can't have a legitimate poll if LeBron is in it. Those saying LeBron needs a specific system.. That's because LeBron plays every role for his team while Duncan doesn't. Duncan's role is to stay in the paint, block shots, and grab rebounds. Score occasionally (it was for a bulk of his career). LeBron had to have a specific cast because he was never playing under the tutelage of the great Popovich -- who handled the roster. What would the difference be if prime LeBron was playing for the Spurs instead of Kawhi right now?

Gee I wonder why... I guess TD had nothing to do with that..... :rolleyes:

You make Duncan sound like a role player smh. It's funny how much you are underrating the guy. Like he's Deandre Jordan or something. Stay in the paint, block shots and rebound.

You can pick Lebron w/o ******** on TD. Dude played the role that Lebron did of doing everything. And he won a title doing it. He would've dominated in any system, or any scenario.

And to your last question, idk if the Spurs are better or not tbh. Record wise, i just don't know. In the playoffs maybe it makes a difference.

Heediot
03-27-2017, 11:19 AM
Spurs are dominating right now. Without Timmy. They probably would've been a fckin damn amazing team without Timmy as well.

No team that LeBron has been with would have been amazing if not for LeBron.

This is too easy and it's LeBron. I cannot see a scenario that puts Timmy above LeBron. LeBron beats him statistically at every category in advanced metrics. (PER/WS/VORP).

It's silly that it's even this close. When your coach can turn Patty Mills into a starting PG, then you're working with a coach who understands how to win REGARDLESS of who he has. AKA why the Spurs are still dominating today.

Just reading the thread, those who always hated LeBron are voting for Timmy. Seriously can't have a legitimate poll if LeBron is in it. Those saying LeBron needs a specific system.. That's because LeBron plays every role for his team while Duncan doesn't. Duncan's role is to stay in the paint, block shots, and grab rebounds. Score occasionally (it was for a bulk of his career). LeBron had to have a specific cast because he was never playing under the tutelage of the great Popovich -- who handled the roster. What would the difference be if prime LeBron was playing for the Spurs instead of Kawhi right now?

That's not a fully fair argument. Tim Duncan last year finally showed his age and was just a solid player. The addition of LMA and the emergence of a superstar level Kawhi more then offset Timmy's decline. One guy was/is in his prime, the other guy was in his late 30's. It's true that having Pops and Buford helps, but there's more factors then just saying they are doing better without him. This year Kawhi is an MVP candidate, they have LMA and added Pau Gasol. It's not as simple as to say look at the Spurs without Timmy. LeBron may be the better player but there is no guarantee he would do more with the Spurs and Pops as Tim Duncan did for 20 years. Tim Duncan allowed the situation to flourish, whereas LeBron is a control freak who tends to force a better situation in the face of adversity. One does it the teams way, the other wants to do it his way.

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:52 PM
Gee I wonder why... I guess TD had nothing to do with that..... :rolleyes:

You make Duncan sound like a role player smh. It's funny how much you are underrating the guy. Like he's Deandre Jordan or something. Stay in the paint, block shots and rebound.

You can pick Lebron w/o ******** on TD. Dude played the role that Lebron did of doing everything. And he won a title doing it. He would've dominated in any system, or any scenario.

And to your last question, idk if the Spurs are better or not tbh. Record wise, i just don't know. In the playoffs maybe it makes a difference.

He does. But we need to stop giving him credit for every little thing. You can't say TD is the best defender and then not acknowledge that he has the DPOY on his team in Kawhi. Where's the justice in that? TD literally gets zero criticism because of his quiet nature but let's be honest here.. he's been on an incredibly helpful system his entire career and Pop has been proven to be the best coach in NBA history with how he can turn average into productive starters/players. I never said Duncan was a role player but you have to take into account the responsibility a player has as well. We can all agree Duncan's role offensively was never the load LeBron had to endure for a career. Defensively, I'll give Duncan the nod but he's been on superior defensive teams his entire career. Even this year, they are the best defensive team. Could you imagine how great LeBron would look defensively if he was playing under such system? Offensively, too. Do you think prime LeBron substituting Kawhi this season, wouldn't be a much deadlier team?

FlashBolt
03-27-2017, 02:53 PM
That's not a fully fair argument. Tim Duncan last year finally showed his age and was just a solid player. The addition of LMA and the emergence of a superstar level Kawhi more then offset Timmy's decline. One guy was/is in his prime, the other guy was in his late 30's. It's true that having Pops and Buford helps, but there's more factors then just saying they are doing better without him. This year Kawhi is an MVP candidate, they have LMA and added Pau Gasol. It's not as simple as to say look at the Spurs without Timmy. LeBron may be the better player but there is no guarantee he would do more with the Spurs and Pops as Tim Duncan did for 20 years. Tim Duncan allowed the situation to flourish, whereas LeBron is a control freak who tends to force a better situation in the face of adversity. One does it the teams way, the other wants to do it his way.

LeBron has to be a control freak. He had to deal with seven seasons of incompetence at a very young age. He grew up having to do it all. That's how it's being used now and I would say, effectively.

kdspurman
03-27-2017, 03:08 PM
He does. But we need to stop giving him credit for every little thing. You can't say TD is the best defender and then not acknowledge that he has the DPOY on his team in Kawhi. Where's the justice in that? TD literally gets zero criticism because of his quiet nature but let's be honest here.. he's been on an incredibly helpful system his entire career and Pop has been proven to be the best coach in NBA history with how he can turn average into productive starters/players. I never said Duncan was a role player but you have to take into account the responsibility a player has as well. We can all agree Duncan's role offensively was never the load LeBron had to endure for a career. Defensively, I'll give Duncan the nod but he's been on superior defensive teams his entire career. Even this year, they are the best defensive team. Could you imagine how great LeBron would look defensively if he was playing under such system? Offensively, too. Do you think prime LeBron substituting Kawhi this season, wouldn't be a much deadlier team?

1. Dude, Kawhi just got here a few years ago. TD was the best defender for how many years?

2. What does he deserve "criticism" for?

3. Are you just ignoring the first half of Duncan's career? And realizing the 2nd half of his career helped create the culture they have today?

The question is who would you have for 20 years. With TD, you're getting a 2-way dominant player, who has carried a team to a title, and has shown a willingness to sacrifice his own stats/money for the betterment of the team and organization.

That may be something you aren't interested, and that's fine. My thing is you're really downplaying the guy to try to justify you picking Lebron. It's not needed at all, and frankly anyone who's watched TD his whole career and not just the last 6-7 years know just how much of a beast he was.

nastynice
03-28-2017, 04:23 AM
I'm a little shocked at the results. Lebron is clearly a better player, like wtf? I get there are things Duncan brings that lebron doesn't, but wtf, lebron is clearly in a higher category than Duncan

Saddletramp
03-28-2017, 01:53 PM
I'm wondering what Duncan woudlve done with those mid/late 2000 Cavs teams. I know what Lebron did*. And I know Duncan helped create the culture in San Antonio but I think that's more on Pop/Buford. They never brought in dopey outlandish over the top guys (besides Stephen Jackson, and then they wouldn't bring him back). And some of those guys who flourished there were never that big a deal elsewhere.


He comes with baggage and he can be a twat sometimes, but I'd take the guy who'll go down as the second greatest player ever. Gimme Lebron.


*Seriously, I wonder how much higher his standing would be if he had an actual competent front office his first 7 years. He might've passed Jordan by now.

nastynice
03-29-2017, 01:41 AM
I'm wondering what Duncan woudlve done with those mid/late 2000 Cavs teams. I know what Lebron did*. And I know Duncan helped create the culture in San Antonio but I think that's more on Pop/Buford. They never brought in dopey outlandish over the top guys (besides Stephen Jackson, and then they wouldn't bring him back). And some of those guys who flourished there were never that big a deal elsewhere.


He comes with baggage and he can be a twat sometimes, but I'd take the guy who'll go down as the second greatest player ever. Gimme Lebron.


*Seriously, I wonder how much higher his standing would be if he had an actual competent front office his first 7 years. He might've passed Jordan by now.

He's already in Jordan's (and shaq and Hakeem's) category. He'll never pass him because there's nowhere else to go. Tier 1 is as high as it gets

He could retire tomorrow, he'll still go down as a tier 1 player

More-Than-Most
03-29-2017, 02:04 AM
I'm a little shocked at the results. Lebron is clearly a better player, like wtf? I get there are things Duncan brings that lebron doesn't, but wtf, lebron is clearly in a higher category than Duncan

im not.. the results are hidden.. it would be the same lebron haters if the poll was public

prodigy
03-29-2017, 10:29 AM
Lebron easy. I love Tim Duncan but Lebron and his skill set can almost win u games by himself. Duncan just couldn't do that and needs to reply more on teammates then Lebron has too.

kdspurman
03-29-2017, 10:35 AM
Lebron easy. I love Tim Duncan but Lebron and his skill set can almost win u games by himself. Duncan just couldn't do that and needs to reply more on teammates then Lebron has too.

Me thinks you didn't watch Duncan early on in his career if you think he couldn't win games by himself.

That's the problem, I think people's lasting image is Duncan at 39 years old. They forget how much he carried that team early on.

I'd suggest Youtubing his 2003 title run

IKnowHoops
03-29-2017, 10:50 AM
Me thinks you didn't watch Duncan early on in his career if you think he couldn't win games by himself.

That's the problem, I think people's lasting image is Duncan at 39 years old. They forget how much he carried that team early on.

I'd suggest Youtubing his 2003 title run

Tim could win games by himself. Just not to the extent of Lebron where he is literally leading your team in every statistical category. Come playoffs, Bron will often lead his team in all categories. Tim doesn't have the versatility to lead his team in steals and asst. Lebron is GOAT. Tim is too 10.

kdspurman
03-29-2017, 11:23 AM
Tim could win games by himself. Just not to the extent of Lebron where he is literally leading your team in every statistical category. Come playoffs, Bron will often lead his team in all categories. Tim doesn't have the versatility to lead his team in steals and asst. Lebron is GOAT. Tim is too 10.

Lebron is GOAT in your opinion.

And fwiw, TD lead in Points, Rebounds, Blocks, Assists in the 2003 finals. Just not in steals.. But sure, he doesn't have the flexibility.

Anyway, they play 2 different positions. Lebron is more of a PG, Duncan is more of a PF/C. No one would try to argue Lebron's rim defense against Duncan's, that would be silly. They dominate differently.

valade16
03-29-2017, 11:41 AM
Me thinks you didn't watch Duncan early on in his career if you think he couldn't win games by himself.

That's the problem, I think people's lasting image is Duncan at 39 years old. They forget how much he carried that team early on.

I'd suggest Youtubing his 2003 title run

Even though I picked LeBron and think he is better, I seem to see this as a common view throughout the thread. Duncan in his heyday was a beast who carried the Spurs.

prodigy
03-29-2017, 12:27 PM
Me thinks you didn't watch Duncan early on in his career if you think he couldn't win games by himself.

That's the problem, I think people's lasting image is Duncan at 39 years old. They forget how much he carried that team early on.

I'd suggest Youtubing his 2003 title run

Yes i watched Tim for many years and i stand by my comment. U can have Tim bring the ball up and make plays for others as much as Lebron does not nor Could he switch off and guard 4 and sometimes 5 positions late in playoff games like Lebron has.

Its eaither to find a real good big man then it is to find a Lebron games. Thats really my point. I love Tim Duncan though He was always one of my fav players. Nicest NBA player i ever met besides big Z.

kdspurman
03-29-2017, 12:35 PM
Yes i watched Tim for many years and i stand by my comment. U can have Tim bring the ball up and make plays for others as much as Lebron does not nor Could he switch off and guard 4 and sometimes 5 positions late in playoff games like Lebron has.

Its eaither to find a real good big man then it is to find a Lebron games. Thats really my point. I love Tim Duncan though He was always one of my fav players. Nicest NBA player i ever met besides big Z.

You can stand by your comment, but the fact is, it's wrong. TD carried the team plenty of times in games and throughout playoff series. Just because he didn't do it as a PG doesn't make it any less impactful. Unless you're saying dominant big men can't carry teams in general?

Like I said, go back to his 2003 run. Tell me what teammates he was relying on and that he didn't carry them team.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 12:36 PM
He did anoint himself "King" James before he graduated HS.

I don't remember a 16 year old Duncan on the cover of SI...

you tell a child that he is above everyone long enough, what do you expect dude? While I find LeBron annoying at times, it's a minor miracle he didn't turn out to be exponentially a bigger douche/brat than he did.

IKnowHoops
03-29-2017, 12:56 PM
Lebron is GOAT in your opinion.

And fwiw, TD lead in Points, Rebounds, Blocks, Assists in the 2003 finals. Just not in steals.. But sure, he doesn't have the flexibility.

Anyway, they play 2 different positions. Lebron is more of a PG, Duncan is more of a PF/C. No one would try to argue Lebron's rim defense against Duncan's, that would be silly. They dominate differently.


But what you fail to realize, at any point in a game, Lebron can explode athletically and make any play defensively around the rim that Tim can. And even more. No way in h--- does Tim or ( or anyone for that matter) make that block "at the rim" that Tim made on Iggy to win the ship last year. Bron isn't going to camp at the Rim, but he can, has and will make any play Tim can possibly make defensively around the rim and more. And Lebron will do it when no one else can, and the team needs it to win.

Yes they dominate differently, but Lebron dominates more thoroughly and to a crazier extent. I love Tim. And top 10 is accurate. But top ten is debatable too. GOAT is def debateable, and when I said that, I was saying that he is debatably the GOAT. I could fit Duncan outside of the top 10. I wouldn't, but I also have Drob above Tim. And most have Drob around the 14-16 area.

GREATNESS ONE
03-29-2017, 01:34 PM
Duncan.

kdspurman
03-29-2017, 01:48 PM
But what you fail to realize, at any point in a game, Lebron can explode athletically and make any play defensively around the rim that Tim can. And even more. No way in h--- does Tim or ( or anyone for that matter) make that block "at the rim" that Tim made on Iggy to win the ship last year. Bron isn't going to camp at the Rim, but he can, has and will make any play Tim can possibly make defensively around the rim and more. And Lebron will do it when no one else can, and the team needs it to win.

Yes they dominate differently, but Lebron dominates more thoroughly and to a crazier extent. I love Tim. And top 10 is accurate. But top ten is debatable too. GOAT is def debateable, and when I said that, I was saying that he is debatably the GOAT. I could fit Duncan outside of the top 10. I wouldn't, but I also have Drob above Tim. And most have Drob around the 14-16 area.

Stop it.. Guys make chase down blocks all the time. Danny Green does it all the freaking time for example. Lebron isn't the only guy who's making that play.

I already know how you are w/Lebron so there's really no point in arguing. You saying it's debatable that Tim is top 10 and having Robinson higher says it all.

Heediot
03-29-2017, 01:49 PM
All this Popovich dick sucking and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't win a title ever again. Let's see 10-15 years down the line when LeBron plays 20 years and Pops coached a good stretch without Duncan.

I'll stick with Duncan for subjective reasons, LeBron is the better individual talent but I rather have Timmy on my team and leading my team.

mngopher35
03-29-2017, 02:02 PM
I went Lebron here, he is just too talented. Probably the only players I would take over him for this are MJ/Kareem so it's not a knock on Duncan. Both of these guys are in my top 6 but Lebron is just a bit better to me.

IKnowHoops
03-29-2017, 03:06 PM
Stop it.. Guys make chase down blocks all the time. Danny Green does it all the freaking time for example. Lebron isn't the only guy who's making that play.

I already know how you are w/Lebron so there's really no point in arguing. You saying it's debatable that Tim is top 10 and having Robinson higher says it all.

Stop it.

Danny could not of gotten to that ball.

Neither could Tim

If you think different than that is what says it all.

IKnowHoops
03-29-2017, 03:10 PM
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Shaq
4.Kareem
5.Wilt
7.Magic
8.Bird
9.Dream
10.Kobe

That is an argument that can be made for top 10.

IKnowHoops
03-29-2017, 03:25 PM
Stop it.. Guys make chase down blocks all the time. Danny Green does it all the freaking time for example. Lebron isn't the only guy who's making that play.

I already know how you are w/Lebron so there's really no point in arguing. You saying it's debatable that Tim is top 10 and having Robinson higher says it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIlY4H4J-zU

I guess it does happen all the time. LOL

This is probably how simplistic you are making "chase down block" when you are saying everyone does it.

LOL

Everyone dunks

Not everyone dunks from the free throw line...understand.

That guy who got "chase down blocked" by Ricky Rubio, does not have the speed or vertical to make the play Lebron did.

Funny how you can tell me to stop it, then make some lame statement about how everyone makes chase down blocks. You got your freakin nerve dude.

kdspurman
03-29-2017, 03:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIlY4H4J-zU

I guess it does happen all the time. LOL

This is probably how simplistic you are making "chase down block" when you are saying everyone does it.

LOL

Everyone dunks

Not everyone dunks from the free throw line...understand.

That guy who got "chase down blocked" by Ricky Rubio, does not have the speed or vertical to make the play Lebron did.

Funny how you can tell me to stop it, then make some lame statement about how everyone makes chase down blocks. You got your freakin nerve dude.

It really does happen often tho. And that's not the only one, but sure. Pick the one with Rubio. Jonathan Simmons has had a number of chase down blocks this season too. And that's just from my team.

It was a great play by Lebron, don't get me wrong. But to insinuate he's the only one who can make that play? That's just silly man.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 03:32 PM
Stop it.. Guys make chase down blocks all the time. Danny Green does it all the freaking time for example. Lebron isn't the only guy who's making that play.


oh LeBron is the best "free safety" I have seen in forever when it comes to chase down blocks. But that doesn't even remotely mean he is on the same level as a paint/rim protector as Tim Duncan haha. Teams avoid certain sets/passes when guys like Duncan are on the floor. That is a whole lot more disruptive than worrying about getting blocked from behind once in a blue moon.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 03:33 PM
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Shaq
4.Kareem
5.Wilt
7.Magic
8.Bird
9.Dream
10.Kobe
That is an argument that can be made for top 10.

the bolded have no argument above Duncan to me.

kdspurman
03-29-2017, 04:28 PM
oh LeBron is the best "free safety" I have seen in forever when it comes to chase down blocks. But that doesn't even remotely mean he is on the same level as a paint/rim protector as Tim Duncan haha. Teams avoid certain sets/passes when guys like Duncan are on the floor. That is a whole lot more disruptive than worrying about getting blocked from behind once in a blue moon.

According to IKnowHoops, Lebron could do what Duncan did easily if he wanted to

Hawkeye15
03-29-2017, 04:34 PM
According to IKnowHoops, Lebron could do what Duncan did easily if he wanted to

well, the poll being where it is shows us something. Look, we can all agree, in a box, LeBron is the more talented player. But people who pick Duncan aren't wrong here depending on their needs. For many reasons. Duncan is one of the top 2 way bigs to ever play, and some people simply value that more than a wing player, not named Michael Jordan.

FOXHOUND
03-29-2017, 04:49 PM
I don't get how you can make an educated guess on this when LeBron is just finishing his 14th season. I say this as someone who believes that LeBron can break Kareem's scoring record EASILY if he really wants to, mind you. There are just too many unknown variables over the next 6 years for LeBron for this to be a fair question. I already know that Duncan can play a large role on a championship team in year 17 while playing Finals MVP good and being a shot away from another in year 16.

Also, beyond the fact that LeBron is clearly a superior individual player, it's hard to argue against Duncan's ability to lead and impact a team. LeBron didn't start winning championships until he played on teams who arguably had the most talent in the NBA for 6 straight years. This year, obviously GS is in their own class in that regard. 2011 still happened, which is the worst performance by a star player in Finals history. 2014 still happened, which was the worst team beat down in Finals history since Kareem and Oscar destroyed some poor sad saps in 1972. That one was against the Spurs, which doesn't hurt Duncan's case either. It was so much more difficult for the Heat to beat the Spurs the year before, despite having a more talented roster.

2016 may be the greatest team Finals win in history and LeBron's performance may be among the best ever in that Finals too, but can't we say the same about Duncan in 2003? He led a team that had no business being near the Finals to a victory over the defending 3peat Lakers and the 60-win Mavs with two All-NBA players in Dirk and Nash on his way to the Finals. Do we dock Duncan points because it was less dramatic? Because they beat the Lakers in 6 and never trailed in the series? Isn't it better to do that, from a practical standpoint? Because the tops teams were in the west while the east teams in the Finals were weak instead of vice versa?

This question isn't fair to either player and I'm not sure how you fairly quantify years that haven't happened yet.

mngopher35
03-29-2017, 04:53 PM
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Shaq
4.Kareem
5.Wilt
7.Magic
8.Bird
9.Dream
10.Kobe

That is an argument that can be made for top 10.

That's 9 players. Duncan fits at 6 though, nice of you to leave the spot open for him.

mngopher35
03-29-2017, 05:25 PM
I don't get how you can make an educated guess on this when LeBron is just finishing his 14th season. I say this as someone who believes that LeBron can break Kareem's scoring record EASILY if he really wants to, mind you. There are just too many unknown variables over the next 6 years for LeBron for this to be a fair question. I already know that Duncan can play a large role on a championship team in year 17 while playing Finals MVP good and being a shot away from another in year 16.

Also, beyond the fact that LeBron is clearly a superior individual player, it's hard to argue against Duncan's ability to lead and impact a team. LeBron didn't start winning championships until he played on teams who arguably had the most talent in the NBA for 6 straight years. This year, obviously GS is in their own class in that regard. 2011 still happened, which is the worst performance by a star player in Finals history. 2014 still happened, which was the worst team beat down in Finals history since Kareem and Oscar destroyed some poor sad saps in 1972. That one was against the Spurs, which doesn't hurt Duncan's case either. It was so much more difficult for the Heat to beat the Spurs the year before, despite having a more talented roster.

2016 may be the greatest team Finals win in history and LeBron's performance may be among the best ever in that Finals too, but can't we say the same about Duncan in 2003? He led a team that had no business being near the Finals to a victory over the defending 3peat Lakers and the 60-win Mavs with two All-NBA players in Dirk and Nash on his way to the Finals. Do we dock Duncan points because it was less dramatic? Because they beat the Lakers in 6 and never trailed in the series? Isn't it better to do that, from a practical standpoint? Because the tops teams were in the west while the east teams in the Finals were weak instead of vice versa?

This question isn't fair to either player and I'm not sure how you fairly quantify years that haven't happened yet.

I guess my assumption was simply Lebron won't fall off a cliff/retire in the next couple of years. Remember that Duncan has more rest during seasons and he did not dominate in the same way Lebron has in his early 30's. Lebron has just been the top player for so long it doesn't take the same longevity to reach Duncan for him. To put this in a bit of a statistical sense Lebron currently has like 3 less WS total than Duncan for his career and already has a higher Vorp in RS (leads both for playoffs). I am just using the numbers to show what I am trying to say value wise not as proof Lebron is better btw.

This isn't to downgrade Duncan or anything just pointing out longevity isn't as big of an issue considering he was more dominating through his peak/prime. Not to say that the aging Duncan didn't add good value to the spurs, it's just not nearly the same as best player in the league level play which makes it not as big of an issue here imo. I get what you are saying as people likely have more critiques if Lebron has a career ending injury tomorrow but he really doesn't need much more longevity to top Duncan imo. They are like right next to each other on my all time list currently without any longevity assumptions added in from Lebron.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2017, 05:41 PM
i have timmy in like the 4-7 range... MJ/Lebron 1 and 2.... you can argue timmy anywhere from 4-7 and you wont hurt my feelings.. i love the dude... 4th best player of all time? sure i wouldnt argue.

FOXHOUND
03-29-2017, 05:58 PM
I guess my assumption was simply Lebron won't fall off a cliff/retire in the next couple of years. Remember that Duncan has more rest during seasons and he did not dominate in the same way Lebron has in his early 30's. Lebron has just been the top player for so long it doesn't take the same longevity to reach Duncan for him. To put this in a bit of a statistical sense Lebron currently has like 3 less WS total than Duncan for his career and already has a higher Vorp in RS (leads both for playoffs). I am just using the numbers to show what I am trying to say value wise not as proof Lebron is better btw.

This isn't to downgrade Duncan or anything just pointing out longevity isn't as big of an issue considering he was more dominating through his peak/prime. Not to say that the aging Duncan didn't add good value to the spurs, it's just not nearly the same as best player in the league level play which makes it not as big of an issue here imo. I get what you are saying as people likely have more critiques if Lebron has a career ending injury tomorrow but he really doesn't need much more longevity to top Duncan imo. They are like right next to each other on my all time list currently without any longevity assumptions added in from Lebron.

Ah, gotcha. I guess I read the thread wrong and got caught up on the 20-year mark lol. I also agree, LeBron being more dominant for longer means he doesn't need 19-years like Duncan to pass him. I also have them really close, I could probably flip flop on which is ahead depending on the day. Part of that is also based on my assumptions of what LeBron will do over the rest of his career though.

mngopher35
03-29-2017, 06:20 PM
Ah, gotcha. I guess I read the thread wrong and got caught up on the 20-year mark lol. I also agree, LeBron being more dominant for longer means he doesn't need 19-years like Duncan to pass him. I also have them really close, I could probably flip flop on which is ahead depending on the day. Part of that is also based on my assumptions of what LeBron will do over the rest of his career though.

Haha I think initially I thought about that 20 years part then decided to just ignore it. If anything the assumption Lebron plays that long only helps him right?

Ya I am at the point I think Lebron is probably going to be ahead of Duncan on my lists consistently but have had them in the 4-6 range with Shaq for a while and you could even throw Wilt in too and make it 3-6 (Don't really always know how to judge Wilt/Russell and older guys). They could have been in any order depending on the day but Lebron is slowly moving himself up as he continues with his longevity/top level play. I try and base it on where I will argue/rank guys right now and not take what could happen into account but its obviously tough.

IKnowHoops
03-29-2017, 10:31 PM
I'm just saying Lebron can make any play that any player has ever made basically.

My personal "peak" top 10

1. Bron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Duncan
9. KG
10. Durant

FlashBolt
03-30-2017, 05:58 PM
But the point is, if we're arguing statistics, LeBron beats Duncan. if we're talking impact, LeBron beats Duncan. If we're talking titles, Duncan beats LeBron on the sole premise that he's been on better teams. By virtue of his position, Duncan has been able to reserve his energy on the defensive and offensive end. That doesn't happen when you have a guy like LeBron who has to be the best player on both sides of the court in every game. That was the case for Duncan for about a few years but it slowly developed into an all-around team effort style that the Spurs are known for today. I just find it silly that we aren't taking into account the drastic difference in teams. I mean, I'd take Duncan over LeBron if I needed an interior presence/have a good ball dominating player already but LeBron is the superior player. Plus, if we're being fair, Duncan only has one ring more than LeBron at this same point of their career. It's not totally out of the picture for Lebron to win 1-2 more rings before he retires. It's totally possible for LeBron to be the all-time nba scorer while being top 3 in assists as well. Think about that. That's just undeniable greatness.

IKnowHoops
03-30-2017, 11:31 PM
I'm just saying Lebron can make any play that any player has ever made basically.

My personal "peak" top 10

1. Bron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Duncan
9. KG
10. Durant

I don't want it to get lost, that I love Duncan. I love Duncan! And despite my list, if I was going to make a team and I was taking 4 bigs from that list, I'd take Shaq, Drob, Dream, Duncan.


PG. Lebron/Curry
SG. Jordan/Wade
SF. Durant/Tmac
PF Drob/Duncan
C. Shaq/Dream

3 "scrubs"

Kobe
Magic
Bird

ewing
03-30-2017, 11:43 PM
I don't want it to get lost, that I love Duncan. I love Duncan! And despite my list, if I was going to make a team and I was taking 4 bigs from that list, I'd take Shaq, Drob, Dream, Duncan.


PG. Lebron/Curry
SG. Jordan/Wade
SF. Durant/Tmac
PF Drob/Duncan
C. Shaq/Dream

3 "scrubs"

Kobe
Magic
Bird

you just took T-Mac over Larry Bird?

WaDe03
03-30-2017, 11:59 PM
Huh? No disrespect to Tim, a top 7 player ever, but this is clearly LeBron. He is the 2nd best player ever.

prodigy
04-01-2017, 09:57 AM
You can stand by your comment, but the fact is, it's wrong. TD carried the team plenty of times in games and throughout playoff series. Just because he didn't do it as a PG doesn't make it any less impactful. Unless you're saying dominant big men can't carry teams in general?

Like I said, go back to his 2003 run. Tell me what teammates he was relying on and that he didn't carry them team.

How is it wrong? prove to me right now without a doubt Tim Duncan is a better player than Lebron. you cant lol so its all opinion based. Neither of us are wrong. Its just personal opinion. Good try though.

go back to 2003? Tim Duncan was a great player and has many great series in his pocket. You keep naming 1 though, With Lebron its endless as well. Both great players. I love both and would love to have either. my choice would be Lebron.

Put Tim Duncan on that 2007 cavs team. def would not be in the finals. Which is my point, A lebron James is something you just cant find. not that TD is easy to find either. But on 1 Lebron James.

kdspurman
04-01-2017, 11:47 AM
How is it wrong? prove to me right now without a doubt Tim Duncan is a better player than Lebron. you cant lol so its all opinion based. Neither of us are wrong. Its just personal opinion. Good try though.

go back to 2003? Tim Duncan was a great player and has many great series in his pocket. You keep naming 1 though, With Lebron its endless as well. Both great players. I love both and would love to have either. my choice would be Lebron.

Put Tim Duncan on that 2007 cavs team. def would not be in the finals. Which is my point, A lebron James is something you just cant find. not that TD is easy to find either. But on 1 Lebron James.

Dude..You don't even know what you're arguing. Your comment was "Tim Duncan couldn't carry a team alone, he always relied on teammates"

That's wrong, and it leads me to think you didn't watch early TD. I keep naming 03 cause that was a historically dominant run by him. But surely there are other series he carried them. You'd know that if you watched him back then

Heediot
04-01-2017, 12:02 PM
Just a few years back an aged 38-39 year old Timmy almost carried the Spurs past the Clips in round one.

nastynice
04-01-2017, 12:40 PM
But what you fail to realize, at any point in a game, Lebron can explode athletically and make any play defensively around the rim that Tim can. And even more. No way in h--- does Tim or ( or anyone for that matter) make that block "at the rim" that Tim made on Iggy to win the ship last year. Bron isn't going to camp at the Rim, but he can, has and will make any play Tim can possibly make defensively around the rim and more. And Lebron will do it when no one else can, and the team needs it to win.

.

Haha, sorry, lebron can't guard 5 positions. You think lebron could guard prime Duncan and not get absolutely raped? Hell, you think if the cavs put lebron on Bogut last year we would not have absolutely owned the paint?

Sorry, but this whole he can guard 5 positions is bs. I know, cuz I've seen a player who can guard 5 positions, n it ain't lebron

kdspurman
04-01-2017, 12:41 PM
Just a few years back an aged 38-39 year old Timmy almost carried the Spurs past the Clips in round one.

Very true... He was incredible that series

nastynice
04-01-2017, 12:43 PM
I'm just saying Lebron can make any play that any player has ever made basically.

My personal "peak" top 10

1. Bron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Duncan
9. KG
10. Durant

Umm, I never seen him break ankles like Kyrie :shrug: air time like Jordan :shrug: bring the rim down like shaq :shrug:

Not that that's a knock, but just wondering where the hell you keep getting these ideas from...

ewing
04-01-2017, 06:48 PM
could teammates or management take this guy's behavior for 20 years? IDK, there's another LB that is a great coach but there is a reason he always skips town too.

ewing
04-01-2017, 06:50 PM
I'm just saying Lebron can make any play that any player has ever made basically.

My personal "peak" top 10

1. Bron
2. Mike
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Duncan
9. KG
10. Durant

let me introduce you to footwork

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg

ewing
04-02-2017, 11:20 AM
Would LeBron's need to GM be a negitive if he was on one team this long?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

prodigy
04-02-2017, 02:31 PM
Your comment was "Tim Duncan couldn't carry a team alone, he always relied on teammates"

What did you quote? LMAO i never even made this comment so not sure what you are quoting here. Don't do that.

LeBron can carry very subpar/bad teammates to the finals. 2003 spurs team was not a bad team by any means. If you watched i wouldn't need to say that. Sure Duncan can put teams on his back. thats what great players do. But Lebron had some horrible players around him in the past.

Both insane players! Like i said, I'd take Lebron.

kdspurman
04-02-2017, 02:43 PM
Lebron easy. I love Tim Duncan but Lebron and his skill set can almost win u games by himself. Duncan just couldn't do that and needs to reply more on teammates then Lebron has too.


What did you quote? LMAO i never even made this comment so not sure what you are quoting here. Don't do that.

LeBron can carry very subpar/bad teammates to the finals. 2003 spurs team was not a bad team by any means. If you watched i wouldn't need to say that. Sure Duncan can put teams on his back. thats what great players do. But Lebron had some horrible players around him in the past.

Both insane players! Like i said, I'd take Lebron.

Ok, my words were slightly different, but doesn't that seem to be what you're saying?

Which again , is a false statement

prodigy
04-03-2017, 09:21 AM
Ok, my words were slightly different, but doesn't that seem to be what you're saying?

Which again , is a false statement

Duncan never really had bad NBA players on his team like Lebron did in the past. So I'm not sure how he would handle it. He can take over games no question. once again that's what great players do. He can put teams on his back when needed. But once again, Lebron lifted subpar/bad NBA players and took them to the Finals. At 33 years old Avg a triple double in last years finals etc... Duncan cannot dribble the ball up Court on a consistent basis, He cannot make big plays for teammates on a consistent basis, he cant switch off and guard 4 or 5 positions.

Love both and both are legends. I'm taking Bron. That's a true statement.

prodigy
04-03-2017, 09:24 AM
Ok, my words were slightly different, but doesn't that seem to be what you're saying?

Which again , is a false statement

Also don't ever misquote someone like that again. That's ignorant.

kdspurman
04-03-2017, 10:08 AM
Also don't ever misquote someone like that again. That's ignorant.

Haha... Get a grip, it was close enough to what you said.

kdspurman
04-03-2017, 10:11 AM
Duncan never really had bad NBA players on his team like Lebron did in the past. So I'm not sure how he would handle it. He can take over games no question. once again that's what great players do. He can put teams on his back when needed. But once again, Lebron lifted subpar/bad NBA players and took them to the Finals. At 33 years old Avg a triple double in last years finals etc... Duncan cannot dribble the ball up Court on a consistent basis, He cannot make big plays for teammates on a consistent basis, he cant switch off and guard 4 or 5 positions.

Love both and both are legends. I'm taking Bron. That's a true statement.

Duncan did have bad/inexperienced players on his teams at times. But Sure man...

No issues with you taking Lebron. It's when you try to downplay what Duncan could or couldn't do that I take issue with, cause history says you're assumptions that he cannot make big plays for his teammates or carry subpar players to the finals (which he did and won) remain false, as proven by history/facts.

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 11:02 AM
Duncan did have bad/inexperienced players on his teams at times. But Sure man...

No issues with you taking Lebron. It's when you try to downplay what Duncan could or couldn't do that I take issue with, cause history says you're assumptions that he cannot make big plays for his teammates or carry subpar players to the finals (which he did and won) remain false, as proven by history/facts.

No one has said he couldn't but LeBron has just done it at a better level for a longer period of time. Can you really deny that? I get that Duncan did it for a few years but it was for a FEW years. That was until Pop and the Spurs figured out a much more effective way to win. Why do you think the Spurs are known for team ball rather than one particular dominant player (which Kawhi is starting to break again)? Because that's what worked for them. Parker+Gino backcourt was better than probably 90% of the backcourts when they were at their prime.

And it's also not as easy as saying "duncan won more with less." Back then, player talent was more diluted. Now, there are a few teams who truly dominate. it was Tim Duncan vs KG or Tim Duncan vs Nowitzki. Now, it's more than that. if you're a really great player stuck on a bad team, it's Tim Duncan vs KG+Iverson+Ray Allen. So whereas it was more likely for one player to have more success back then, it's impossible now. that's why if you're a very good player, you're just considered a stat-stuffer. It's tough to win alone more than ever.

kdspurman
04-03-2017, 11:12 AM
No one has said he couldn't but LeBron has just done it at a better level for a longer period of time. Can you really deny that? I get that Duncan did it for a few years but it was for a FEW years. That was until Pop and the Spurs figured out a much more effective way to win. Why do you think the Spurs are known for team ball rather than one particular dominant player (which Kawhi is starting to break again)? Because that's what worked for them. Parker+Gino backcourt was better than probably 90% of the backcourts when they were at their prime.

And it's also not as easy as saying "duncan won more with less." Back then, player talent was more diluted. Now, there are a few teams who truly dominate. it was Tim Duncan vs KG or Tim Duncan vs Nowitzki. Now, it's more than that. if you're a really great player stuck on a bad team, it's Tim Duncan vs KG+Iverson+Ray Allen. So whereas it was more likely for one player to have more success back then, it's impossible now. that's why if you're a very good player, you're just considered a stat-stuffer. It's tough to win alone more than ever.

You must've missed the previous posts then...

The Spurs now (not so much this year) but the last few years are known for team ball. It wasn't as much team ball TD's first 8-9 years as it was running the offense through him. I'm really amazed people don't remember that.

I'm not arguing over who did it longer. I'm simply saying TD was more than capable as well. People continue to downplay his greatness/abilities to make their case for Lebron, which imo is silly

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 02:01 PM
You must've missed the previous posts then...

The Spurs now (not so much this year) but the last few years are known for team ball. It wasn't as much team ball TD's first 8-9 years as it was running the offense through him. I'm really amazed people don't remember that.

I'm not arguing over who did it longer. I'm simply saying TD was more than capable as well. People continue to downplay his greatness/abilities to make their case for Lebron, which imo is silly

I don't think there is a case, tbh. TD is great but LeBron is historically and statistically on another level. Offensively/defensively, he's done more than TD and that matters. We're not taking into consideration that this is for 20 years as well so give-or-take, six more years of LeBron. He probably cracks the all-time scoring record, maybe a few more rings. Who knows? Literally the only argument Timmy has is defense. I'm not giving him the rings argument unless it was a prime Timmy who had won them.

kdspurman
04-03-2017, 02:20 PM
I don't think there is a case, tbh. TD is great but LeBron is historically and statistically on another level. Offensively/defensively, he's done more than TD and that matters. We're not taking into consideration that this is for 20 years as well so give-or-take, six more years of LeBron. He probably cracks the all-time scoring record, maybe a few more rings. Who knows? Literally the only argument Timmy has is defense. I'm not giving him the rings argument unless it was a prime Timmy who had won them.

Defense, leadership, better teammate, harder to game plan against (we've seen teams successfully game plan and slow down Lebron haven't we?), etc... There are other things that people value highly too, which I get.

So while there is no case for you, others disagree. This is an opinion based question. Who would you rather have for 20 years.

Also, how has he done more defensively than Duncan?

YAALREADYKNO
04-03-2017, 02:34 PM
Labrawn James

ewing
04-03-2017, 02:50 PM
Defense, leadership, better teammate, harder to game plan against (we've seen teams successfully game plan and slow down Lebron haven't we?), etc... There are other things that people value highly too, which I get.

So while there is no case for you, others disagree. This is an opinion based question. Who would you rather have for 20 years.

Also, how has he done more defensively than Duncan?

How many times do you think LeBron would have fired Pop over a 20 year span?

valade16
04-03-2017, 03:27 PM
How many times do you think LeBron would have fired Pop over a 20 year span?

Would Duncan have left for Orlando if Mike Brown was the coach?

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 04:49 PM
Defense, leadership, better teammate, harder to game plan against (we've seen teams successfully game plan and slow down Lebron haven't we?), etc... There are other things that people value highly too, which I get.

So while there is no case for you, others disagree. This is an opinion based question. Who would you rather have for 20 years.

Also, how has he done more defensively than Duncan?

1) Defense, yes.
2) Leadership? C'mon.. Pop runs the show. You can't tell me Duncan is the one teaching these guys how to act and behave when it's clear they look at Pop whenever something goes wrong.
3) Better teammate? That's entirely subjective and impossible to judge when they are both great teammates. I'm not sure how you're judging this but I'm not sure Duncan is the "better" teammate.
4) LeBron has been slowed down by who? By virtue of Duncan's game and how the Spurs play, it's more difficult to slow a certain player down. They have such great ball movement that the ball is never in one player's hand longer than a few ticks. That's hardly comparable to a guy who has to run point for his team and be their best scorer... not even a fair comparison.

It's not really opinion based as it seems like. One player is just superior and that's LeBron. Now, if we're talking Duncan vs Hakeem, we might have a better discussion because it's closer but I don't see how LeBron vs Duncan is really an argument.

As for the defensively doing more, I meant on both ends, LeBron has had to do more. In his Miami days, he was their best defender/scorer. In the Finals and playoffs, he was once again their best scorer/defender. That role in Spurs has been delegated to a few players rather than one driver. Duncan protects the rim but he's not the go-to guy to score. Kawhi is the guy trusted to lockdown a perimeter player. If LeBron had Draymond on his team, his defensive ability would look much better. Instead, he has K.Love and Chris Bosh -- two very average defenders. Duncan has a 2x DPOY in Kawhi and Pop preaches defense. He goes so ballistic on it that he called a timeout when they were up 20 against the Warriors just because they blew a defensive scheme.

FlashBolt
04-03-2017, 04:51 PM
How many times do you think LeBron would have fired Pop over a 20 year span?

He came into the league as an 18 year old who had to carry an entire franchise/city/state in the most underwhelming team in NBA at the time all the way to a 26 year old who finally had his chance to go to a better team. So yeah, pretty sure he has grown up having to carry all the responsibility whereas some players have a coach who helps them grow. Paul Silas and Mike Brown? are you kidding me?

flea
04-03-2017, 05:35 PM
Lmao these Lebronophiles never give up. In 10 years he'll be looked at as Kobe is now - great player but not a serious contender for GOAT or even top 5. In 25 years he'll be looked at as Big O is now - great all-around stat padder but was never good enough to overcome his weak conference (or era in Oscar's case) to make a serious argument as a top 10 player. Old time fans will show up and say he defended 1-5 and could get any shot he wanted but it's an obvious lie.

The reason Lebron can be schemed around and shows up in an NBA Finals looking like a lost puppy is because he's probably the worst scorer of any of the top 10-15 players all time. The only other great players I can think of that are worse scorers that are sometimes said to be top 15 are KG and maybe Karl Malone. Says a lot about the rest of Lebron's game that he's still considered better than many greats in spite of it but that won't be good enough for the jock riders.

valade16
04-03-2017, 05:44 PM
Lmao these Lebronophiles never give up. In 10 years he'll be looked at as Kobe is now - great player but not a serious contender for GOAT or even top 5. In 25 years he'll be looked at as Big O is now - great all-around stat padder but was never good enough to overcome his weak conference (or era in Oscar's case) to make a serious argument as a top 10 player. Old time fans will show up and say he defended 1-5 and could get any shot he wanted but it's an obvious lie.

The reason Lebron can be schemed around and shows up in an NBA Finals looking like a lost puppy is because he's probably the worst scorer of any of the top 10-15 players all time. The only other great players I can think of that are worse scorers that are sometimes said to be top 15 are KG and maybe Karl Malone. Says a lot about the rest of Lebron's game that he's still considered better than many greats in spite of it but that won't be good enough for the jock riders.

At some point you plan to provide evidence for why LeBron is not a great scorer, right?

flea
04-03-2017, 05:50 PM
I have many times on this forum before. Many. Maybe you weren't posting here then. I'm not going through it again with the homers because what is the point? Dude is a bad shooter, had zero post game until midway through his career and even now it's not very good (a decent fadeaway is about the extent), has no midrange game anymore and only briefly had that 18 footer in Miami, and has bad footwork.

He's a pure power slasher - I don't think I've ever even seen him do an up-and-under move but I'm sure he must have done it at least once (right?). That is just his game. As a playmaker he's top 3 ever. As a scorer? Probably top 25 but I'd have to really think about it because there have been some fine NBA scorers.

valade16
04-03-2017, 06:20 PM
I have many times on this forum before. Many. Maybe you weren't posting here then. I'm not going through it again with the homers because what is the point? Dude is a bad shooter, had zero post game until midway through his career and even now it's not very good (a decent fadeaway is about the extent), has no midrange game anymore and only briefly had that 18 footer in Miami, and has bad footwork.

He's a pure power slasher - I don't think I've ever even seen him do an up-and-under move but I'm sure he must have done it at least once (right?). That is just his game. As a playmaker he's top 3 ever. As a scorer? Probably top 25 but I'd have to really think about it because there have been some fine NBA scorers.

I agree with a lot of your analysis though I think you overblow the deficiencies. He managed to shoot well from 16-23 ft, from 2009 until last season his 16-23 ft shot was 40%. His 3PT shooting has been at 36% since 2012 (with one bad season).

And all that aside, he has managed to be one of the most efficient high volume scorers ever. I really don't care if you think the footwork is bad or the jump-shot is pretty or not, if he makes more shots and gets more points on greater efficiency than someone else, who cares?

I suspect you don't believe Shaq was a "bad" scorer because he only had 1-2 moves, because he was able to do those moves with incredible efficiency.

As for him being around a Top 25 scorer, I think he's higher but I don't think that's a knock on him because there have been a lot of great scorers (especially some that are underappreciated because they aren't Top 10 overall good).

ewing
04-03-2017, 06:26 PM
Would Duncan have left for Orlando if Mike Brown was the coach?


IDK, so how many times do you think LeBron would had Pop fired over a 20 year span?

ewing
04-03-2017, 06:27 PM
He came into the league as an 18 year old who had to carry an entire franchise/city/state in the most underwhelming team in NBA at the time all the way to a 26 year old who finally had his chance to go to a better team. So yeah, pretty sure he has grown up having to carry all the responsibility whereas some players have a coach who helps them grow. Paul Silas and Mike Brown? are you kidding me?

Poor LeBron.

kdspurman
04-03-2017, 06:50 PM
1) Defense, yes.


2) Leadership? C'mon.. Pop runs the show. You can't tell me Duncan is the one teaching these guys how to act and behave when it's clear they look at Pop whenever something goes wrong.

It's stuff like this that shows just how misinformed you are when it comes to the matter of the Spurs.

I could post countless articles to make my point, but frankly you might still try to dispute it. But trust me, a simple google search of Tim Duncan leadership will generate lots of results. Just from his retirement alone, and guys speaking on him back up what i'm telling you. This goes way back before that though.

Few examples though anyway... (Trust me, there are more than this tho)

*He was a #1 draft pick, highly sought out obviously, and still chose to play in the summer league when he didn't have to. Shows his character and the fact that he wasn't entitled. Set's a good example from jump street.

*Never blames his teammates or anyone else when they didn't succeed. Always felt like he could do more, and took the blame

*First to show up to practice, and last to leave. Always working out before other guys during the summer. Continuing to add different elements to his game? He had a crazy work ethic that you and many probably have no idea about because he didn't have cameras on him at all times.

*Always took what Pop threw at him. Getting yelled at or whatever and he took it. He set the foundation for Pop to coach how he does. It has been said many, many, many, times that other guys who came in followed suit in that regard to TD. Thus making Pop's life easier.


If I (or i bet most people) could sum up Duncan's leadership and being a great teammate in a gif, it'd be this:

http://photos.sacurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tim-duncan-coach-o.gif




3) Better teammate? That's entirely subjective and impossible to judge when they are both great teammates. I'm not sure how you're judging this but I'm not sure Duncan is the "better" teammate.


I'm sorry, but throwing your team under the bus after losses, or yelling at a guy like Mario Chalmers even when it's his (Lebron's) fault is not being a good teammate. A great teammate, no matter how great a player should be able to own up to mistakes and not point the finger. Or the subtle jabs @ K Love?. Maybe it is to you, if so, no point in discussing.


4) LeBron has been slowed down by who? By virtue of Duncan's game and how the Spurs play, it's more difficult to slow a certain player down. They have such great ball movement that the ball is never in one player's hand longer than a few ticks. That's hardly comparable to a guy who has to run point for his team and be their best scorer... not even a fair comparison.

It's easier to scheme against him, because he never really developed a consistent jump shot. Even Dallas was able to slow him down. You could pack the paint and put him in spots where he wasn't comfortable. Now, he has since gotten better in some of those areas. TD's biggest thing was handling the "NBA Doubleteam" After he struggled early on, he became a terrific passer.

How many times did you see Duncan made to be a non-impact player at times? Aside from the 2005 Pistons who had 1 of the best defense in our time, and even then he still lead the charge in Game 7 to bring them back. (Please don't bring up his last series against OKC, cause at this rate it seems like something you'd do) Talking prime years...


It's not really opinion based as it seems like. One player is just superior and that's LeBron. Now, if we're talking Duncan vs Hakeem, we might have a better discussion because it's closer but I don't see how LeBron vs Duncan is really an argument.

It is opinion based. It's about who you would want for 20 years. You want Lebron for the reasons you say, and I'd take TD for the reasons I said. Both are top 5 players, you probably won't go wrong with either for your team. You just keep trying to make it seem like it'd be some huge travesty to pick TD.


As for the defensively doing more, I meant on both ends, LeBron has had to do more. In his Miami days, he was their best defender/scorer. In the Finals and playoffs, he was once again their best scorer/defender. That role in Spurs has been delegated to a few players rather than one driver. Duncan protects the rim but he's not the go-to guy to score. Kawhi is the guy trusted to lockdown a perimeter player. If LeBron had Draymond on his team, his defensive ability would look much better. Instead, he has K.Love and Chris Bosh -- two very average defenders. Duncan has a 2x DPOY in Kawhi and Pop preaches defense. He goes so ballistic on it that he called a timeout when they were up 20 against the Warriors just because they blew a defensive scheme.

You're still seriously bringing up Kawhi, unbelievable. You really think Duncan wasn't their best offensive/defensive player when he first got here? Jeez man. Take it back a little, please. I promise you, things were different. Kawhi was 6 years old when Duncan came into the league..... Duncan's defensive dominance goes way back before Kawhi man. And way before Pop became the brilliant defensive mind he is. Make no mistake, you take Duncan out the equation, they don't have that elite defense in the 2000's like they did.

Here's a very small sample of some playoff #'s...

97- 2nd in OBPM, DBPM, and VORP *(Brad Lohaus was #1 in DBPM, but he played 10 mins. Doesn't really qualify)

98- First in VORP and OBPM 2nd in DBPM

99 First in VORP, DBPM, 2nd in OBPM

2000 -(spurs lost in First round, TD was hurt. But sure, his team was staaaaacked) (First in VORP, Tied for first in OBPM, 2nd in DBPM during the reg season)

2001- First in VORP, DBPM, and OBPM

2002- 2nd in DBPM (though behind Charles Smith who only played 4 games and 13MP, context is needed) Smith was 6.7 and Duncan at 6.5 (next closest guy at 4.1) First in OBPM by far, and VORP

2003- First in VORP, DBPM, and OBPM


That's just the first few years, and just the playoffs. Not even factoring the regular season, but I'd imagine you'll find similar numbers if you want to check. By his 2nd season (98) he was their leading scorer, rebounder, shot blocker, & minutes.

To say he never was the focal point on both ends is so ignorant. He was very much so for lots of his earlier years. I seriously am confused as to why when bringing up Duncan's historical stuff, you go back to Pop & Kawhi like his career was from 2012-2016.

I really don't care if you pick Lebron, I get it. I'll say it again, my biggest beef is you crediting damn near everything Duncan did to Pop and Kawhi, and just downplaying everything he did to get the franchise to where they are today.

JordansBulls
04-03-2017, 07:50 PM
Better question may be Lebron for 15 years or Duncan for 20 years.

flea
04-03-2017, 09:11 PM
I agree with a lot of your analysis though I think you overblow the deficiencies. He managed to shoot well from 16-23 ft, from 2009 until last season his 16-23 ft shot was 40%. His 3PT shooting has been at 36% since 2012 (with one bad season).

And all that aside, he has managed to be one of the most efficient high volume scorers ever. I really don't care if you think the footwork is bad or the jump-shot is pretty or not, if he makes more shots and gets more points on greater efficiency than someone else, who cares?

I suspect you don't believe Shaq was a "bad" scorer because he only had 1-2 moves, because he was able to do those moves with incredible efficiency.

As for him being around a Top 25 scorer, I think he's higher but I don't think that's a knock on him because there have been a lot of great scorers (especially some that are underappreciated because they aren't Top 10 overall good).

I don't care about exhibition stats. I can't take you seriously if you're quoting me exhibition stats.

Lebron, since going to Miami, shoots 38.6% in the 3-10, 37% 10-16, 37.7% 16-3, and 32.4% from 3. That is a pretty pathetic rate in the low post and mid post and a barely functional rate in the mid range (not to mention well below average from deep). And don't forget, those are superteam-only stats in years where he often had 2 rounds worth of bye games in the playoffs.

For reference, the best scorer today (Durant) since his age 23 Finals run shoots 44.6% in 3-10, 44.1% in 10-16, 50.7% in 16-3, and 33% from 3. All those rates are excellent except the 3 point one - which Durant should really put a lid on. And this is in the West, it's nearly Dirk-like.

He just isn't that good of a scorer. Yes he demands the ball all the time, so yes he scores. Yes he's a great slasher and an efficient overall player. But if you need him to carry your offense with his scoring, break a run, or close a game - more often than not he's letting you down. And that's why people call him a choker (and TBH I don't think he's a choker). BTW Shaq's scoring repertoire wasn't on the level of Hakeem or anything but he was pretty diverse. A better low post scoring comparison for Lebron is Dwight.

Bruno
04-03-2017, 09:26 PM
I'm just saying Lebron can make any play that any player has ever made basically.


maybe its just me but I do split hair on this one. LBJ turns scrubs, average players and borderline all-stars into better players. every legit all-star he's ever played with has had to leave some of what they are on the table in order to fit next to his vortex of greatness. in the history books, those drops off are forgiven and forgotten because said players win and are remembered as winning, but their production does take a hit.

Kyrie was so young with such a small body of work before LBJ returned from spring break, it's hard to really know. I dont care about PER but since everyone else does, it's interesting to note that even he fell into that trend in the sense that his PER last year was beneath what he achieved in his final year without LBJ. ...just sayin.

as a kid growing up in LA during Kobes career, I'd also heed caution assuming LBJ will dominate and be great for 20 years. at any moment great players can fall and never return to form. this question loses its luster if LBJ has a major injury before year 16 or 17, Duncans longevity is legendary and he can thank Pops long game mentality for that.

EDIT: misread your post. for some reason I read that you said he makes every player he plays with better.

valade16
04-03-2017, 11:06 PM
I don't care about exhibition stats. I can't take you seriously if you're quoting me exhibition stats.

Lebron, since going to Miami, shoots 38.6% in the 3-10, 37% 10-16, 37.7% 16-3, and 32.4% from 3. That is a pretty pathetic rate in the low post and mid post and a barely functional rate in the mid range (not to mention well below average from deep). And don't forget, those are superteam-only stats in years where he often had 2 rounds worth of bye games in the playoffs.

For reference, the best scorer today (Durant) since his age 23 Finals run shoots 44.6% in 3-10, 44.1% in 10-16, 50.7% in 16-3, and 33% from 3. All those rates are excellent except the 3 point one - which Durant should really put a lid on. And this is in the West, it's nearly Dirk-like.

He just isn't that good of a scorer. Yes he demands the ball all the time, so yes he scores. Yes he's a great slasher and an efficient overall player. But if you need him to carry your offense with his scoring, break a run, or close a game - more often than not he's letting you down. And that's why people call him a choker (and TBH I don't think he's a choker). BTW Shaq's scoring repertoire wasn't on the level of Hakeem or anything but he was pretty diverse. A better low post scoring comparison for Lebron is Dwight.

To be clear: you don't take into account regular season stats at all? It's weird to me that you say "95% of their production? Yeah, throw that out" but hey, whatever helps your argument.

If we go to the stats you listed he scored 27.1 PPG on 57.1% TS% which you'll note is significantly better than "not that good a scorer".

LeBron's offensive repertoire is certainly more diverse than Shaq's, in the post or otherwise.

I guess I just don't understand the irrational hate you have for LeBron.

prodigy
04-04-2017, 09:58 AM
You must've missed the previous posts then...

The Spurs now (not so much this year) but the last few years are known for team ball. It wasn't as much team ball TD's first 8-9 years as it was running the offense through him. I'm really amazed people don't remember that.

I'm not arguing over who did it longer. I'm simply saying TD was more than capable as well. People continue to downplay his greatness/abilities to make their case for Lebron, which imo is silly

Go back and quote where i disrespected TD at any point. use real quotes this time please. TD can carry teams, Could he carry that 2007 cavs team to the finals? ehhhhh, i don't think so. That does not mean he cant put other teams on his back and lead them to victory. You take something i say then stretch it. Read my posts, I praise TD left and right. He's my fav non cav player of all-time.

prodigy
04-04-2017, 01:28 PM
What does whos a better teammate have to do with anything? i mean does anyone on PSD hang out in locker rooms with both Lebron and TD? seems like thats opinion based and not a fact. Lebron is a lot more vocal then TD no question, I cant remember a time when Lebron flat out attacked players through the media. Maybe he has i just honestly cant remember.

Leadership is kinda the same thing. Lebron is a very vocal leader. TD was the Dad who puts his arm around you in the locker run. Both are great ways pending on the players you have. Lebron has made some mistakes in this department. But he's an excellent "follow me" leader.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2017, 02:33 PM
What did you quote? LMAO i never even made this comment so not sure what you are quoting here. Don't do that.

LeBron can carry very subpar/bad teammates to the finals. 2003 spurs team was not a bad team by any means. If you watched i wouldn't need to say that. Sure Duncan can put teams on his back. thats what great players do. But Lebron had some horrible players around him in the past.

Both insane players! Like i said, I'd take Lebron.

Yeah, the notion that, that 2003 team was bad is laughable. That team had at least 5 players besides Tim who were better than the next best guy on Cleveland. Easily. I watched Spurs b-ball religiously till after they won against Detroit. Nobody can tell me a thing about that squad. Tim was unbelievable, and was a complete unstoppable beast! It was beautiful to watch. I think Drob put up 17/11/7 in his last game in that 2003 finals. David was a shadow of himself and would of been by far the best player Lebron had ever played with. That version of Drob may of pushed Lebron over the edge for a ring earlier in his career. Give him that whole 2003 team minus Duncan and he'd of won a ring easily. With pop coaching too...

IKnowHoops
04-04-2017, 02:35 PM
Go back and quote where i disrespected TD at any point. use real quotes this time please. TD can carry teams, Could he carry that 2007 cavs team to the finals? ehhhhh, i don't think so. That does not mean he cant put other teams on his back and lead them to victory. You take something i say then stretch it. Read my posts, I praise TD left and right. He's my fav non cav player of all-time.

A very bad and annoying habit of many PSD posters.

kdspurman
04-04-2017, 03:14 PM
Check # 3...

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9357345/greatest-individual-postseasons-1-5


In terms of raw playoff WARP, Duncan's 2003 playoff run (8.0) tops the list because the Spurs, as noted in the introduction, needed 24 games to win the championship -- playing exactly six games in every series. Don't blame Duncan. No superstar has done more to drag an undermanned team to the title.

Silly people still look at names rather than production, but hey. Whatever fits the agenda

valade16
04-04-2017, 04:21 PM
Check # 3...

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9357345/greatest-individual-postseasons-1-5

Silly people still look at names rather than production, but hey. Whatever fits the agenda

I get that you are arguing that Duncan did in fact have bad teams and carried them (which he absolutely did), but in the grand scheme of things, LeBron's playoff run is #2 on that very list, which in the context of the greater argument only supports LeBron's case.

I agree that a lot of people don't seem to remember Duncan's prime. He absolutely is able to carry a team both offensively and defensively.

kdspurman
04-04-2017, 04:26 PM
I get that you are arguing that Duncan did in fact have bad teams and carried them (which he absolutely did), but in the grand scheme of things, LeBron's playoff run is #2 on that very list, which in the context of the greater argument only supports LeBron's case.

I agree that a lot of people don't seem to remember Duncan's prime. He absolutely is able to carry a team both offensively and defensively.

Yea, I'm simply addressing those who think that 03 was better than they really were. And LeBron is there for his 2012 series, in which he was great. But that team was much better than Duncan's 03 team. But I am well aware of LeBron carrying bad teams for sure. It's just some think TD wasn't capable

But yea, my arguments now seem to be predicated on your your 2nd paragraph. Some people just don't remember his prime.i guess when you play so long , people tend to remember the lasting image of that player

FOXHOUND
04-04-2017, 04:53 PM
maybe its just me but I do split hair on this one. LBJ turns scrubs, average players and borderline all-stars into better players. every legit all-star he's ever played with has had to leave some of what they are on the table in order to fit next to his vortex of greatness. in the history books, those drops off are forgiven and forgotten because said players win and are remembered as winning, but their production does take a hit.

Kyrie was so young with such a small body of work before LBJ returned from spring break, it's hard to really know. I dont care about PER but since everyone else does, it's interesting to note that even he fell into that trend in the sense that his PER last year was beneath what he achieved in his final year without LBJ. ...just sayin.

as a kid growing up in LA during Kobes career, I'd also heed caution assuming LBJ will dominate and be great for 20 years. at any moment great players can fall and never return to form. this question loses its luster if LBJ has a major injury before year 16 or 17, Duncans longevity is legendary and he can thank Pops long game mentality for that.

EDIT: misread your post. for some reason I read that you said he makes every player he plays with better.

It's not just you, I completely agree. LeBron is incredibly dominant and I believe that he is the best drive and kick player of all time. However, he plays an incredibly ball dominant style that does work far better for some teammates than others.

When he first got to Miami, LeBron didn't know how to mesh with other stars at all. Really, it took all three a good bit before they found any sort of groove. In the Finals, when Wade was dominating, LeBron was left far less effective and eventually checked out mentally in horrific fashion. Wade in that following offseason, in an amazing sign of leadership, spoke about how he had to limit his own game going forward to allow LeBron to be great for the best of the team. This is so completely overlooked by some people now with them assuming that by year 2 Wade just started declining out of nowhere. Them doing so makes LeBron look better, of course.

Fast forward to Cleveland and all LeBron did was copy and paste the Miami formula. He would dominate the ball and be his LeBron self, with a secondary dominant offensive guard in Kyrie helping him. They would have one of the best offensive bigs of this generation but would limit them to 3 point shooting to space the floor for LeBron and his star guard duo. It works - it creates an incredibly efficient and hard to stop offense when you have great one on one scoring drivers with a big drawn out of the paint. That doesn't take away from the fact that it greatly limited Bosh and Love, right?

I think people get so caught up in how dominant LeBron is in terms of play style, that they greatly overlook the fact that he doesn't necessarily have to play that way. It's not a matter of talent, right? I mean, LeBron/Wade/Bosh and LeBron/Kyrie/Love are not only clearly the most dominant offensive trio pairings since 2010 - until Durant joined GS, of course - but they are among the tops of all time. You really have to go back to Magic/Kareem/Worthy to find an offensive trio so offensively gifted. So, why does LeBron play so dominant, to the point of greatly shrinking the games of the thirds in that trio? It's simple, it's because it's the only way he can play.

People talk about other teams systems and their benefits and how LeBron would do this and that if he was there while completely ignoring that LeBron cannot play any way other than the way that he does. LeBron would not be LeBron if he was on the Spurs because he would never be able to adjust and play within the system that Pop runs. This type of great team impact is truly rare for star players and it's what makes someone like Duncan, and now Kawhi, so special. People have said swap Curry for LeBron and this will happen but they ignore the simple reality of things like the fact that the passing we see from Draymond Green would never exist with LeBron on that team.

It obviously has worked plenty great for LeBron, but people way overdo the talk of his "versatility". His form of team elevation is much more due to his complete and utter individual dominance than it is due to him truly raising the level of his teammates play. For role players in a spot up 3 or PnR roll? Yes, he's fantastic for them. Other than those elements on the court? Not really. And that's perfectly OK, when you're one of the greatest players of all time.

FOXHOUND
04-04-2017, 05:00 PM
Yea, I'm simply addressing those who think that 03 was better than they really were. And LeBron is there for his 2012 series, in which he was great. But that team was much better than Duncan's 03 team. But I am well aware of LeBron carrying bad teams for sure. It's just some think TD wasn't capable

But yea, my arguments now seem to be predicated on your your 2nd paragraph. Some people just don't remember his prime.i guess when you play so long , people tend to remember the lasting image of that player

Duncan was so overlooked during his prime, it's not surprising to see it even worse now. I feel like people started talking about San Antonio/Duncan being too old to win from like 08/09 lmao. Duncan had that old man game that fooled everyone.

FlashBolt
04-04-2017, 06:39 PM
In other news, kdspurman, you catch the story about Pop regarding Kawhi? Crazy how they envisioned him as a player who only rebounds.

flea
04-04-2017, 07:21 PM
To be clear: you don't take into account regular season stats at all? It's weird to me that you say "95% of their production? Yeah, throw that out" but hey, whatever helps your argument.

If we go to the stats you listed he scored 27.1 PPG on 57.1% TS% which you'll note is significantly better than "not that good a scorer".

LeBron's offensive repertoire is certainly more diverse than Shaq's, in the post or otherwise.

I guess I just don't understand the irrational hate you have for LeBron.

Not for superstars, no. If we're comparing role players maybe. NBA regular is a joke and it has nothing to do with my argument - that is how every discussion of NBA stars goes all across the spectrum of sports discussion. It honestly makes you seem pathetic if you have to argue what Lebron does in December vs. the Bobcats to prove his greatness. Regular season matters so little that in prime NBA stars have taken to not even showing up! Nobody plays consistent D and it just doesn't matter - this was true way before Lebron destroyed his conference's competition. I never cite regular season stats for stars except to point out if a player gets better or worse in the postseason when the games actually matter.

As far as Shaq maybe you don't remember. Great dropstep, hookshot with both hands, pretty good footwork. It wasn't all power drives. He had even better touch on his drives than Lebron. Shaq wasn't a triple threat monster and his moves weren't as polished as a few of the other greats but his post game is miles smoother than Lebron's - who looks like he telegraphs everything (similar to Dwight). Besides a raw post game, Lebron's got left handed layup, right handed layup, and a goofy Euro step where he travels about 50% of the time. If Lebron can't get an angle he's got no counter but to pass or throw up one of those hideous bricks.

Finally, I don't hate Lebron - I just don't subscribe to fanboy fantasy. To a fanboy I guess that's "irrational hate" but let's wait a few years. I used to be accused of the same thing regarding Kobe but now I'm one of his main defenders since the Lakers fans have gone dormant as their team sits atop the lottery.

kdspurman
04-04-2017, 07:45 PM
In other news, kdspurman, you catch the story about Pop regarding Kawhi? Crazy how they envisioned him as a player who only rebounds.

I did catch that. They had no idea what they were getting. Great stuff, and shows his determination to want to be great. Also the coaching staff did a great job working with him on different areas of his game

rhino17
04-04-2017, 07:55 PM
Duncan, I've still never seen Lebron win without having a stacked team.

FlashBolt
04-04-2017, 07:57 PM
Duncan, I've still never seen Lebron win without having a stacked team.

Contextually, no one has ever won without a stacked team... so I'm not sure why you think LeBron should be held to the standard of winning without a stacked team. If we're being fair and honest, if there was ONE superstar on a team and everyone had the same team, LeBron would win every ring.

Chronz
04-04-2017, 11:32 PM
Defense, leadership, better teammate, harder to game plan against (we've seen teams successfully game plan and slow down Lebron haven't we?),
Its a thread worthy question that I've made. Plz give input

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?920433-What-your-favorite-(ATG)Players-worst-playoff-series-say-about-them





etc... There are other things that people value highly too, which I get.
Also, how has he done more defensively than Duncan?
Yeah gimme Duncan defensively and leadership for sure

valade16
04-05-2017, 12:36 AM
Not for superstars, no. If we're comparing role players maybe. NBA regular is a joke and it has nothing to do with my argument - that is how every discussion of NBA stars goes all across the spectrum of sports discussion. It honestly makes you seem pathetic if you have to argue what Lebron does in December vs. the Bobcats to prove his greatness. Regular season matters so little that in prime NBA stars have taken to not even showing up! Nobody plays consistent D and it just doesn't matter - this was true way before Lebron destroyed his conference's competition. I never cite regular season stats for stars except to point out if a player gets better or worse in the postseason when the games actually matter.

As far as Shaq maybe you don't remember. Great dropstep, hookshot with both hands, pretty good footwork. It wasn't all power drives. He had even better touch on his drives than Lebron. Shaq wasn't a triple threat monster and his moves weren't as polished as a few of the other greats but his post game is miles smoother than Lebron's - who looks like he telegraphs everything (similar to Dwight). Besides a raw post game, Lebron's got left handed layup, right handed layup, and a goofy Euro step where he travels about 50% of the time. If Lebron can't get an angle he's got no counter but to pass or throw up one of those hideous bricks.

Finally, I don't hate Lebron - I just don't subscribe to fanboy fantasy. To a fanboy I guess that's "irrational hate" but let's wait a few years. I used to be accused of the same thing regarding Kobe but now I'm one of his main defenders since the Lakers fans have gone dormant as their team sits atop the lottery.

The problem is the majority of people who are called LeBron fanboys are not LeBron fanboys at all. The mere fact that anyone who says a positive word about LeBron is labeled a fanboy shows it's far more likely haters against him than fanboys for him.

As for playoffs, ESPN actually had LeBron's playoff run in 2012 2nd best all-time behind 92 MJ and ahead of Duncan's 03. KDSpursman posted the link earlier. While I don't agree with that ranking, you won't get very far trying to argue LeBron is some underachiever in the playoffs, especially after beating the Warriors last season.

In fact LeBron scores 36.4 points per 100 possessions on 56.7% TS%, Duncan is at 29.7 points per 100 possessions on 54.8% TS%.

So even in the playoffs LeBron scores more on better efficiency. I'm sure you'll whittle away at the game's that don't count until you find a filter where Duncan surpasses Bron, but the truth is whether Duncan is a "better" scorer or not, Bron scores more on better efficiency any way you slice it.

prodigy
04-05-2017, 09:28 AM
Yea, I'm simply addressing those who think that 03 was better than they really were. And LeBron is there for his 2012 series, in which he was great. But that team was much better than Duncan's 03 team. But I am well aware of LeBron carrying bad teams for sure. It's just some think TD wasn't capable

But yea, my arguments now seem to be predicated on your your 2nd paragraph. Some people just don't remember his prime.i guess when you play so long , people tend to remember the lasting image of that player

WTF are you talking about? LMAO!! show me quotes from someone on here who completely disrespected TD. please I'll wait. Nobody forgets how great of a player TD is, Hes a legend, maybe the best PF to ever play this game. Nobody forgets, its just we think Lebron is better so you try to stretch things we say to fit ur agenda. Once again, nobody is disrespecting TD, NOBODY!

Once again i take Lebron for many reasons. That cavs 2007 team was absolute garbage. Lebron had to be PG. Could TD dribble the ball up court every single time and make plays for himself and others while going 1 on 2, 1 on 3 every time at the top of the key? I don't believe so, Could TD check other teams PGs, and SG's late in games? I don't think so. thats why i choose Lebron.

That is not a bash on TD, they play different positions lmao! I just fell like a SF with the size of lebron who can do every he does is sooo rare in this league. He's not too big and def not too small so he can move all around the lineup. That versatility is sick.

kdspurman
04-05-2017, 11:28 AM
WTF are you talking about? LMAO!! show me quotes from someone on here who completely disrespected TD. please I'll wait. Nobody forgets how great of a player TD is, Hes a legend, maybe the best PF to ever play this game. Nobody forgets, its just we think Lebron is better so you try to stretch things we say to fit ur agenda. Once again, nobody is disrespecting TD, NOBODY!

Once again i take Lebron for many reasons. That cavs 2007 team was absolute garbage. Lebron had to be PG. Could TD dribble the ball up court every single time and make plays for himself and others while going 1 on 2, 1 on 3 every time at the top of the key? I don't believe so, Could TD check other teams PGs, and SG's late in games? I don't think so. thats why i choose Lebron.

That is not a bash on TD, they play different positions lmao! I just fell like a SF with the size of lebron who can do every he does is sooo rare in this league. He's not too big and def not too small so he can move all around the lineup. That versatility is sick.

I have 0 idea what you're talking about. Read my first line... U said their 03 team wasn't bad. I'm not sure where the confusion is with you, but you've been all over the place when you respond to me.

Where in my quote did I talk about people disrespecting him? It's happened in this thread, for sure tho, but that quote had nothing to do with disrespect. It's like you're not even paying attention anymore

Chronz
04-05-2017, 11:33 AM
I have 0 idea what you're talking about. Read my first line... U said their 03 team wasn't bad. I'm not sure where the confusion is with you, but you've been all over the place when you respond to me.

Where in my quote did I talk about people disrespecting him? It's happened in this thread, for sure tho, but that quote had nothing to do with disrespect. It's like you're not even paying attention anymore
The repeating champion spurs were without Tim Duncan. Remind us all how they fared without him.

kdspurman
04-05-2017, 12:02 PM
Its a thread worthy question that I've made. Plz give input

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?920433-What-your-favorite-(ATG)Players-worst-playoff-series-say-about-them




Yeah gimme Duncan defensively and leadership for sure

I'll check it out shortly

prodigy
04-05-2017, 01:53 PM
I have 0 idea what you're talking about. Read my first line... U said their 03 team wasn't bad. I'm not sure where the confusion is with you, but you've been all over the place when you respond to me.

Where in my quote did I talk about people disrespecting him? It's happened in this thread, for sure tho, but that quote had nothing to do with disrespect. It's like you're not even paying attention anymore

I can say the same for you. This whole convo you been trying to make it sound as if nobody knows who TD is. Lebron with everything he brings to the table, everything I have mentioned and more is why i take Lebron. Spurs 03 team was just young, talented but young. Cavs 07 team was horrible. look what Lebron did against the pistons just to make the finals that year lol. Seems like you forget who Lebron is.

Its been fun talking though. Both are great players and loved every moment i got to watch them play.