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HandsOnTheWheel
03-04-2017, 03:28 PM
Harden was the consensus pick among many earlier in the season. Has that changed at all? Who do you have?

HeartOfStarks
03-04-2017, 03:55 PM
Harden was the consensus pick among many earlier in the season. Has that changed at all? Who do you have?

It's Harden vs. Westbrook in my eyes. Nobody's doing more with less than these two.

RLundi
03-04-2017, 04:00 PM
I'll go with The Beard over The Stat Padder.

poleandreel
03-04-2017, 04:44 PM
Lebron should win but he won't. Guy is shooting 54% fg and averaging 26/9/8. 60% fg over the last 2 months while attempting 5 threes per game

nastynice
03-04-2017, 05:02 PM
If harden and Westbrook didn't suck so bad, maybe they could be considered

Is that how it's done, saddle and flashbolt (I'd get a jab in on hater number three, iknowhoops, but being a grizzly fan is an insult in of itself enough. I can't top it, haha!)? Do I get my official hater card now?

nastynice
03-04-2017, 05:03 PM
Na, but seriously whoever finishes stronger between westy and harden will win it.

At the moment, advantage beard, cuz of record

DanG
03-04-2017, 05:30 PM
I don't see much of an argument against Harden right now. 3rd seed in the West with a team that would be in the lottery without him. (probably one of the worst teams in the NBA). Westbrook has the triple double, but does it really matter when Harden is putting up 28/8/11? LeBron would win it if he really wanted to, but he's more focused on the playoffs. People keep bringing up the 0-4 Cavs record without him, but it isn't really a strong argument because 3 of those games were on the road against playoff teams. If the playoffs started, sure give me LeBron over any player, but this is a regular season award.

Giannis94
03-04-2017, 05:40 PM
Giannis getting no love yet BR just comped him to LeBron. Yall sleeping on him is sad

nastynice
03-04-2017, 05:42 PM
If the playoffs started, sure give me LeBron over any player, but this is a regular season award.

Thank you. Tired of the lebron should win every year crap. It's not a best player award, it's an MVP award.

Who was the best player in 2016-2017?
Is a very diff question than
Which player had the best 2016-2017 season?

MVP is asking the latter, not the former

Bostonjorge
03-04-2017, 05:42 PM
Westbrook hands down. If he gets 41 triple doubles then it should be unanimous MVP. Can't see a case for anyone else when Westbrook is making history. It's more impressive then Curry shooting 3's.

kdspurman
03-04-2017, 05:50 PM
Kawhi has as good an argument as anyone. Though I know he won't get it.

Jeffy25
03-04-2017, 06:03 PM
If Harden gave a **** on defense, I'd probably give it to him. But the zero effort at random times really hurts him.

Westbrook has an incredible usage along with efficiency while averaging the triple double and carrying an otherwise bad team to the playoffs.

If the argument is, who does the most with the least? It's Westbrook.

But personally, I still think LeBron is the best player and if he wanted it, it should be his. But he isn't stat padding this year.

Jeffy25
03-04-2017, 06:20 PM
btw, shame on nobody mentioning I. Thomas

Bostonjorge
03-04-2017, 07:04 PM
btw, shame on nobody mentioning I. Thomas

True.

Thomas real prize will be eliminating Cleveland. That will end the is he a "superstar" talk once and for all.

Switch
03-04-2017, 07:10 PM
Giannis getting no love yet BR just comped him to LeBron. Yall sleeping on him is sad

Lol

What is the Bucks record again?

JAZZNC
03-04-2017, 07:23 PM
Giannis getting no love yet BR just comped him to LeBron. Yall sleeping on him is sad

Because he isn't leading his team to wins. He's just not that level of player yet.

HeartOfStarks
03-04-2017, 07:24 PM
btw, shame on nobody mentioning I. Thomas

Absolutely, he's crushing. Could def end up #3 in voting, but he does also have a very strong team around him. But he's killing it this year no question.

Giannis94
03-04-2017, 09:32 PM
Wins are an inlll way to measure MVP. I ain't mean to drop too much knowledg on odd but anyone that thinks wins is the b all end all can cry me a rkva

Jamiecballer
03-04-2017, 09:56 PM
Westbrook hands down. If he gets 41 triple doubles then it should be unanimous MVP. Can't see a case for anyone else when Westbrook is making history. It's more impressive then Curry shooting 3's.
Arbitrary numbers is arbitrary

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Giannis94
03-04-2017, 10:48 PM
Bucks fans chatting "MVP" for Giannis. And I'll be dawned if they're wrong

JasonJohnHorn
03-04-2017, 11:12 PM
Part of me wants to say Harden, but part of me feels like that is a coaching change, and were Harden really the driving force there, he would have been able to do more when he had a better supporting cast around him.

I don't mean to diss him; he's great, and a worthy MVP candidate. But this is like that Rose/Thibs year, where you wonder if this is coaching, or an MVP performance, or both.

Westy is not in the running in my mind because his team is doing ok, but this is more about posting impressive personal stats, and not as much about being important to his team (which he is, obviously).


KD's out in part because of injury and in part because his team is stacked, and Curry is out because his team is stacked and he's hitting a cold streak when they need him the most.

So my vote goes to LBJ: career high in rebounds and assists. I'm not happy with where they are in the league-wide standings. They are first in the east, but even the Rockets have more wins, and Boston is within striking distance.


I'm split between LBJ and Harden, but I go like this:

1a LBJ
1b Harden
3 Kwahi Leonard (sadly over looked by many despite clearly being the best player on the league's second best team, who just happened to lose their heart and soul of a franchise player in TD this year and are still on top of the toughest division.
4 Isiaih Thomas (likely the only season he'll have like this, and he deserves a vote)
5 Westbrook (because even if this is a glory-hound season, it is still amazing AF)

FlashBolt
03-04-2017, 11:24 PM
I'm the only OKC fan here so let me tell you guys this: Don't let the numbers deceive you. Westbrook's boneheaded plays has cost us quite some close ones. Just the other day against the Blazers, he just kept on chucking and chucking. These triple doubles are nice and all but I still feel we should be winning more games than we have won so far. It's not like our roster is total trash but moreso I think Westbrook is trying to do too much at once. We're also not going to win more than 50 games so it's tough to really say Westbrook has a case just because of triple doubles. All those 40 point games and most were on terrible efficiency. Just kept costing us valuable plays because he decides to pull up for a three.

Harden is getting overrated now in the sense that some of you swear he's doing everything alone. His team is fairly good. The +/- when he's on/off doesn't make his case compared to others. I'm watching some of his games and man, these guys shoot it over anyone and everything at a high rate. Btw, Harden has had a relatively terrible month and his team is still winning games by double digits. That's not a coincidence.

I like Kawhi too but they are 4-1 when he's not playing. One win was close against a Toronto Raptors team that was very good during that point of the season and the others were pretty much blowouts. The one loss was against Memphis and it was by four points. Difficult to make a case for Kawhi when his team still manages to play very well without him.

And that leaves me with LeBron. I think he's the MVP. Team turns to total **** when he isn't playing. Kyrie can lead that team and nothing changes -- he's not great at getting others involved. on/off, LeBron has one of the highest impact on the team. Dude made Derrick Williams look great and Korver is shooting lights out mostly due to leBron's feeds. I don't see a case against LeBron. His past two months has probably been the best stretch of his career. He's on insane efficiency levels and some of you are trying to make it seem as if Harden/Westbrook have insane numbers that far surpasses everyone else. That's not true. LeBron is averaging 2 less assists and 3 less points than Harden but he also has 1 less turnover AND is shooting much more efficiently than Harden. Crazy that LeBron is shooting threes better than Irving, Harden, Durant, and even Kawhi. The numbers are very close but one guy makes his team significantly better than the rest and that's LeBron.

Giannis94
03-04-2017, 11:27 PM
Bron is overrated. Give Giannis Brons teammates and their record ain't change one bit

FlashBolt
03-04-2017, 11:31 PM
Part of me wants to say Harden, but part of me feels like that is a coaching change, and were Harden really the driving force there, he would have been able to do more when he had a better supporting cast around him.

I don't mean to diss him; he's great, and a worthy MVP candidate. But this is like that Rose/Thibs year, where you wonder if this is coaching, or an MVP performance, or both.

Westy is not in the running in my mind because his team is doing ok, but this is more about posting impressive personal stats, and not as much about being important to his team (which he is, obviously).


KD's out in part because of injury and in part because his team is stacked, and Curry is out because his team is stacked and he's hitting a cold streak when they need him the most.

So my vote goes to LBJ: career high in rebounds and assists. I'm not happy with where they are in the league-wide standings. They are first in the east, but even the Rockets have more wins, and Boston is within striking distance.


I'm split between LBJ and Harden, but I go like this:

1a LBJ
1b Harden
3 Kwahi Leonard (sadly over looked by many despite clearly being the best player on the league's second best team, who just happened to lose their heart and soul of a franchise player in TD this year and are still on top of the toughest division.
4 Isiaih Thomas (likely the only season he'll have like this, and he deserves a vote)
5 Westbrook (because even if this is a glory-hound season, it is still amazing AF)

I look at it from this POV. LeBron has been out I think five games this season. Cavs get blown out by 4/5 of them by high margins. That's even with Kyrie and Love playing (at times). What I'm seeing is that the Cavs are only great when LeBron is on that team. Kyrie and Love might be big names but their impact says otherwise. I only trust Kyrie to score as a 2nd option but I would not trust Kyrie+Love to take me anywhere in the playoffs or lead a team. I'm looking at some of harden's games the past few weeks and he's been terrible but his team still wins. It's telling me a lot about how this team is operating and I have no doubt in my mind that leBron/Westbrook on this Rockets team would be much better. Rockets don't lose that much steam when Harden sits. It's why they are winning so many games despite Harden playing like pooopooo. I can't imagine Cavs winning as many games when Bron has those off shooting nights along with 7-9 turnovers. It's just not happening.

JAZZNC
03-04-2017, 11:38 PM
Wins are an inlll way to measure MVP. I ain't mean to drop too much knowledg on odd but anyone that thinks wins is the b all end all can cry me a rkva

Wins are a great way treasure the Most Valuable player. I mean how important can Giannis be if his team couldn't be much worse without him? I mean if he is an MVP caliber player you guys wouldn't be in the lottery in the East.

Giannis94
03-04-2017, 11:52 PM
Wins are a great way treasure the Most Valuable player. I mean how important can Giannis be if his team couldn't be much worse without him? I mean if he is an MVP caliber player you guys wouldn't be in the lottery in the East.
Jkidd has cost the Bucks at least 10 games this season and that's being conservative. Switch 10 Ls into "W's" and the Bucks are in the thick of it in the east. And 10 might be conservative. No joke. He leaves Giannis the MVP to fend for himself, in terrible situations, and not with the ball

FlashBolt
03-04-2017, 11:58 PM
Jkidd has cost the Bucks at least 10 games this season and that's being conservative. Switch 10 Ls into "W's" and the Bucks are in the thick of it in the east. And 10 might be conservative. No joke. He leaves Giannis the MVP to fend for himself, in terrible situations, and not with the ball

stop lying... Giannis has no confidence in his shot and freezes up in close moments of the game. He turns to a brick and just passes and passes and then makes a terrible play. The dude needs to get his shot fixed even if it's just a 15 footer. I'm not sure why you keep blaming Kidd. He's the one who has elevated Giannis's game by putting him as the point guard. Giannis is not stepping up when it matters... stat stuffing only works for a few years then it's time to produce. Giannis is not ready yet.

Giannis94
03-05-2017, 12:08 AM
stop lying... Giannis has no confidence in his shot and freezes up in close moments of the game. He turns to a brick and just passes and passes and then makes a terrible play. The dude needs to get his shot fixed even if it's just a 15 footer. I'm not sure why you keep blaming Kidd. He's the one who has elevated Giannis's game by putting him as the point guard. Giannis is not stepping up when it matters... stat stuffing only works for a few years then it's time to produce. Giannis is not ready yet.

No confidence in his shot? Ask Knocks fans. Some of them witnessed his confidence live. In person. As he drilled a game winner with ice in his veins, hommie.


Child puhlease.

mightybosstone
03-05-2017, 12:39 AM
If Harden gave a **** on defense, I'd probably give it to him. But the zero effort at random times really hurts him.

Westbrook has an incredible usage along with efficiency while averaging the triple double and carrying an otherwise bad team to the playoffs.

If the argument is, who does the most with the least? It's Westbrook.

But personally, I still think LeBron is the best player and if he wanted it, it should be his. But he isn't stat padding this year.

First, this is not the same James Harden on defense from last year. This is the James Harden defensively two years ago, a guy who's pretty damn good on the ball who's probably at least average or slightly below average overall. The numbers back this up as well.

Secondly, I'm a little sick and tired of hearing about how Harden has significantly more help than Westbrook. Before the season, there isn't a non-Rocket on PSD who would have picked his supporting cast for Westy's. And it's not like Westbrook has complete crap next to him. Oladipo is a pretty damn good No. 2, and the Adams/Kanter duo is one of the best center rotations in the league.

Third, I would agree in most years that if Lebron wanted it, he could have it. Not this season. He's second in the league in minutes played per game, Love has missed a good chunk of the season and he's only sat out like five games so far. This is Lebron's full effort at this point. Harden and Westbrook have had the better the seasons. Now, would I still rather have Lebron for the playoffs? Absolutely. But I think we're passed the point of Lebron's career where we can easily say "If he wanted MVP, he could have it" every season.

mightybosstone
03-05-2017, 12:44 AM
Bron is overrated. Give Giannis Brons teammates and their record ain't change one bit
Agree to disagree. Their advanced stats are essentially identical this season. But they play in two completely different scenarios. The idea that Giannis would magically adjust to brand new teammates, a completely different system and a completely different role overnight with no impact whatsoever on the Cavs' win-loss record is just totally naive. And that's before you consider Lebron's veteran leadership and the pressure he has put on the Cavs front office to improve the roster throughout the season. There are certain things he does that don't show up on the stat sheet, and those things still matter.

mightybosstone
03-05-2017, 12:46 AM
Also, Giannis doesn't even belong in the conversation right now because of his team's record. I'm too lazy to look up MVPs over the history of the NBA, but I'd be willing to bet that it's been decades since a player won MVP with a sub-.500 record.

JasonJohnHorn
03-05-2017, 02:35 AM
I look at it from this POV. LeBron has been out I think five games this season. Cavs get blown out by 4/5 of them by high margins. That's even with Kyrie and Love playing (at times). What I'm seeing is that the Cavs are only great when LeBron is on that team. Kyrie and Love might be big names but their impact says otherwise. I only trust Kyrie to score as a 2nd option but I would not trust Kyrie+Love to take me anywhere in the playoffs or lead a team. I'm looking at some of harden's games the past few weeks and he's been terrible but his team still wins. It's telling me a lot about how this team is operating and I have no doubt in my mind that leBron/Westbrook on this Rockets team would be much better. Rockets don't lose that much steam when Harden sits. It's why they are winning so many games despite Harden playing like pooopooo. I can't imagine Cavs winning as many games when Bron has those off shooting nights along with 7-9 turnovers. It's just not happening.

+1

I suspected this, though I haven't watched enough Rockets games this year to say so myself.

Well argued.
Still... Harden is getting a lot done with that team, even if the system is a major plus for that roster.

More-Than-Most
03-05-2017, 02:52 AM
Also, Giannis doesn't even belong in the conversation right now because of his team's record. I'm too lazy to look up MVPs over the history of the NBA, but I'd be willing to bet that it's been decades since a player won MVP with a sub-.500 record.

its not even just that... he vanishes until he can stat pad when they are down by 20... he was having a top 5 season that wasnt equating to wins... How often does that happen? Oh yea Kevin love but love didnt have the team around him that Gia does... The bucks have talent... their big time player just vanishes until they are down.

zn23
03-05-2017, 03:51 AM
IMO, it's anyone's race at this point. Harden, Westbrook, LBJ, Kawhi all have equal shots of winning it. Westbrook's Triple double is nice and all, but he's literally shoving his teammates out of the way to get rebounds, forcing tough passes, and his team could probably be better if he stopped trying to go for triple doubles every night.

More-Than-Most
03-05-2017, 05:17 AM
there is one player you can throw on the worst team in basketball and instantly they become a playoff contender... that is lebron... Not even Durant takes the nets to the playoffs sorry... Its not that the cavs are built around him because that is ********... When Kyrie sits they win... when love sits they win... when lebron sits they lose... Kyrie is a better shooter who drives as well... this team is build perfectly for a kyrie to lead said team.. 3 point shooters with size and bigs inside and defense all around so dont give me that **** its build for lebron and that is why they look so bad when lebron sits.... Its not close... Lebron brings the most value all the time period... We are looking at a top 2 player ever and potentially the goat... its insane how great he is.

More-Than-Most
03-05-2017, 05:18 AM
IMO, it's anyone's race at this point. Harden, Westbrook, LBJ, Kawhi all have equal shots of winning it. Westbrook's Triple double is nice and all, but he's literally shoving his teammates out of the way to get rebounds, forcing tough passes, and his team could probably be better if he stopped trying to go for triple doubles every night.

yup they would be better if he made the smart play and stopped forcing triple/doubles... Its cool to see but this is why lebron doesnt do it... When people said he easily could they got destroyed... Its just not good for the team.

Heediot
03-05-2017, 09:39 AM
Part of me wants to say Harden, but part of me feels like that is a coaching change, and were Harden really the driving force there, he would have been able to do more when he had a better supporting cast around him.


Just two years ago he went to the ECF. Before when he had a team with Parsons, Lin, and Asik he took them to the playoffs. I think he does more with what he has compared to a guy like AD. He has always taken the rox to the playoffs. I think he is one of the best regular season players, and that's what the mvp is more about. I' not sure he is a top 10 playoff player to me.

bleedprple&gold
03-05-2017, 11:37 AM
Doesn't the mvp generally come from the first or second best team in either conference. That leaves us with KD (probably out now because of his injury), Curry, Kawhi, LeBron or IT. That leaves no Harden unless his team can pass the Spurs. Plus I can't pick Harden because his numbers are inflated because he rests on defense. I'd like to see him put up those numbers when he doesn't get to conserve all his energy for offense. I can't respectfully pick a guy like that for mvp.

bostncelts34
03-05-2017, 12:34 PM
It pains me...But its LBJ for me. Maybe I am just stubborn but I just view him as the most VALUABLE player in the league. He makes his teammates 100x better and plays spectacular 2 way basketball with a lot of versatility. I don't put a lot of stock into the stat padding of Westbrook, harden has more of a shot IMO minus the defensive part of it.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, IT deserves some type of credit here. No, he should not win MVP but the dude is averaging 29/6/3. A lot of people say that the team around him is too solid but doesn't IT help them be solid? Bradley hit a clutch 3 against CLE the other night because IT draws 3 defenders into the paint on him. As well as the fact that the Celtics starting 5 has pretty much never been intact this year for any amount of time. A 5'9 (probably not even) guy that is right at the top of the league in PPG and leads the league in 4th qtr scoring (clutch) should get a couple votes at least, despite him being a vertically challenged defensive liability lol

Once again, SHOULD NOT win MVP, just deserves some credit.

What does everyone think the Celtics record would be without IT this year? Just curious.

kdspurman
03-05-2017, 01:28 PM
there is one player you can throw on the worst team in basketball and instantly they become a playoff contender... that is lebron... Not even Durant takes the nets to the playoffs sorry... Its not that the cavs are built around him because that is ********... When Kyrie sits they win... when love sits they win... when lebron sits they lose... Kyrie is a better shooter who drives as well... this team is build perfectly for a kyrie to lead said team.. 3 point shooters with size and bigs inside and defense all around so dont give me that **** its build for lebron and that is why they look so bad when lebron sits.... Its not close... Lebron brings the most value all the time period... We are looking at a top 2 player ever and potentially the goat... its insane how great he is.

That's where the whole criteria thing matters. The same could've been said for Prime Duncan, Shaq, etc... But they didn't win it every year. It's really about whatever the media pushes in many cases and what has the sexiest storyline to it. Not necessarily most valuable

This year, it's all about Harden and Westbrook. I def hear the argument for LeBron, and as I keep saying Kawhi has as strong a case of em all, maybe more if they get the 1 seed tbh. Dude has been amazing, and on both ends. Doesn't take games off. But it seems like it's between Harden/WB at this point. We'll see how the voters vote tho.

JasonJohnHorn
03-05-2017, 01:47 PM
Just two years ago he went to the ECF. Before when he had a team with Parsons, Lin, and Asik he took them to the playoffs. I think he does more with what he has compared to a guy like AD. He has always taken the rox to the playoffs. I think he is one of the best regular season players, and that's what the mvp is more about. I' not sure he is a top 10 playoff player to me.

Good point Heediot.

I think AD (and DMC and Towns for that matter) are all 'better' than Harden, but I don't think any of them are helping their teams win like Harden is. The way a big man impacts the game in this current league, though, makes that a slightly unfair comparison. That said, I would also vote for Harden as MVP well ahead of any of those guys, AD included.

As for the ECF... I think part of that was the Clippers just falling apart, and I'm not sure they beat the Clippers because of Harden. I mean... he averaged 5 turnovers a game that series! And his 2pt shooting was barely over .400 that series (though he shot well from the arc and the FT line). I'm not sure getting to the conference finals that year has much to do with Harden. He played relatively well, but had some big holes in his game with respect to defense and turnovers. That series, from a statistical perspective, was won on Howard's rebounding and defense (his last great performance), and the 3 point shooting, firstly Ariza, and then Pablo, Terry, Harden, and Smith. Harden was important in terms of drawing defenders and opening things up for guys, yes, but

Last year, they were only 41/41 with a pretty decent roster, but guys like Jones saw a decrease in production.

That said... my vote would be for LBJ with Harden finishing a very close second and Leonard not very far behind that. So I do see the value of your argument.

I feel like Leonard is not getting enough credit. People are quick to see the Spurs as Pop's team, but Leonard is really pulling that team together.

One Nut Kruk
03-05-2017, 03:14 PM
Give it to Harden just for Hawkeye.

mightybosstone
03-05-2017, 04:21 PM
Doesn't the mvp generally come from the first or second best team in either conference. That leaves us with KD (probably out now because of his injury), Curry, Kawhi, LeBron or IT. That leaves no Harden unless his team can pass the Spurs. Plus I can't pick Harden because his numbers are inflated because he rests on defense. I'd like to see him put up those numbers when he doesn't get to conserve all his energy for offense. I can't respectfully pick a guy like that for mvp.

Houston has the third best record in the league and is on pace for just short of 60 wins. Eliminating Harden because of the Rockets record would be asinine. And, again, Harden's defense is not remotely the gaping hole it has been in other seasons. To me, he's no different defensively than Curry or Westbrook.

bleedprple&gold
03-05-2017, 05:45 PM
Doesn't the mvp generally come from the first or second best team in either conference. That leaves us with KD (probably out now because of his injury), Curry, Kawhi, LeBron or IT. That leaves no Harden unless his team can pass the Spurs. Plus I can't pick Harden because his numbers are inflated because he rests on defense. I'd like to see him put up those numbers when he doesn't get to conserve all his energy for offense. I can't respectfully pick a guy like that for mvp.

Houston has the third best record in the league and is on pace for just short of 60 wins. Eliminating Harden because of the Rockets record would be asinine. And, again, Harden's defense is not remotely the gaping hole it has been in other seasons. To me, he's no different defensively than Curry or Westbrook.

I never said I agree with eliminating Harden because of Houston's record. I was just saying based on past seasons the mvp has usually come from the first or second best team in either conference which Houston is not right now but they are close. As far as Harden's defense I admit I haven't been watching it that closely this season but I assume it hasn't gotten any better under D'Antoni.

ManRam
03-05-2017, 07:57 PM
Westbrook has been better than Harden, but I don't think voters will give him enough consideration considering they're a 7th seed right now and voters aren't very progressive with their logic. Harden has the lead because his supporting cast is better.

I think the arguments for Kawhi and LeBron are perfectly valid too. Durant was my 5 until he got hurt. I don't know who my 5 would be now. Maybe if IT wasn't the single worst defensive player in the NBA, and by a sizable margin...

JordansBulls
03-05-2017, 09:54 PM
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/03/03/mvp-ladder-week-16-kevin-durant-kyle-lowry-injuries-affect-kia-mvp-chase

brandt
03-05-2017, 10:23 PM
I don't see much of an argument against Harden right now. 3rd seed in the West with a team that would be in the lottery without him. (probably one of the worst teams in the NBA). Westbrook has the triple double, but does it really matter when Harden is putting up 28/8/11? LeBron would win it if he really wanted to, but he's more focused on the playoffs. People keep bringing up the 0-4 Cavs record without him, but it isn't really a strong argument because 3 of those games were on the road against playoff teams. If the playoffs started, sure give me LeBron over any player, but this is a regular season award. You are pretty funny! Have you even watched the Rockets play or checked out some of the other guys. They have at least 8 guys other than Harden, who can score in the double digits any given night. If the Thunder had a better record, Westbrook would win it easily because the Rockets role players are way better. So to say they are a lottery team without him is hilarious!

mightybosstone
03-05-2017, 11:41 PM
You are pretty funny! Have you even watched the Rockets play or checked out some of the other guys. They have at least 8 guys other than Harden, who can score in the double digits any given night. If the Thunder had a better record, Westbrook would win it easily because the Rockets role players are way better. So to say they are a lottery team without him is hilarious!

Look at the Pelicans last season. They essentially had Gordon and Anderson, plus a similar player skillset wise to Capela in Asik and a couple of competent starters in Holliday and Evans (arguably better than Beverley and Ariza). Oh, and they had this guy named Anthony Davis.

Yeah, that team was a lottery team last season. Take Harden off this team, and I guarantee you it's not as good as last year's Pelicans. You point is a bad one.

FlashBolt
03-06-2017, 12:20 AM
Look at the Pelicans last season. They essentially had Gordon and Anderson, plus a similar player skillset wise to Capela in Asik and a couple of competent starters in Holliday and Evans (arguably better than Beverley and Ariza). Oh, and they had this guy named Anthony Davis.

Yeah, that team was a lottery team last season. Take Harden off this team, and I guarantee you it's not as good as last year's Pelicans. You point is a bad one.

James Harden on the bench, Rockets still outscore opponents. Not indicative of everything else but you're not applying the same formula for Harden. Where were the Rockets before Anderson and Gordon got there? Last I checked, they weren't very good. And you guys added Lou Williams as well. Check the past games for Harden. Even in his terrible games, they are winning by double digits. In some games where they blow teams out, Harden is still on the court. To buff his numbers up? IDK, I just don't see why he's in the court for 40 minutes when they are winning by 16+. I'll add some examples:

Vs. Clippers. Below average game but they win by 19.
Vs. Minny. Below average game. Wins by double digits.
Vs Pelicans. Terrible game. Win by 30.
Vs Charlotte. Decent game. Wins by 12.
Vs. Orlando. Terrible game. Win by 24.
Vs. Sacramento. Another terrible game. Wins by high margin.

I can't imagine Russell or LeBron winning those games with performances of such. Capela has stepped up big time for the Rockets as well. I get Harden's impact but all signs point to his team being underrated while Harden gets the most credit.

For comparison purposes, check how many games Cleveland wins when LeBron has terrible games (very few. He's shot below 50% just 18 times and they usually end up losing when he's just having a bad game). Houston has won many games with Harden playing below average and often in double digits.

Just looking at the numbers, LeBron is having a better season. Less assists and points but Harden's turnovers and efficiency gives the advantage to LeBron. You can decide by TS% if you want but I'm not seeing the huge discrepancy in numbers on Harden's favor. Wins/Losses are literally the same. Actually, 25% of the Cavs losses are due to LeBron sitting out. They lose those games by 20+ every time. It's embarrassingly awful.

mightybosstone
03-06-2017, 12:36 AM
James Harden on the bench, Rockets still outscore opponents. Not indicative of everything else but you're not applying the same formula for Harden. Where were the Rockets before Anderson and Gordon got there? Last I checked, they weren't very good. And you guys added Lou Williams as well. Check the past games for Harden. Even in his terrible games, they are winning by double digits. In some games where they blow teams out, Harden is still on the court. To buff his numbers up? IDK, I just don't see why he's in the court for 40 minutes when they are winning by 16+. I'll add some examples:

Vs. Clippers. Below average game but they win by 19.
Vs. Minny. Below average game. Wins by double digits.
Vs Pelicans. Terrible game. Win by 30.
Vs Charlotte. Decent game. Wins by 12.
Vs. Orlando. Terrible game. Win by 24.
Vs. Sacramento. Another terrible game. Wins by high margin.

I can't imagine Russell or LeBron winning those games with performances of such. Capela has stepped up big time for the Rockets as well. I get Harden's impact but all signs point to his team being underrated while Harden gets the most credit.

For comparison purposes, check how many games Cleveland wins when LeBron has terrible games (very few. He's shot below 50% just 18 times and they usually end up losing when he's just having a bad game). Houston has won many games with Harden playing below average and often in double digits.

Just looking at the numbers, LeBron is having a better season. Less assists and points but Harden's turnovers and efficiency gives the advantage to LeBron. You can decide by TS% if you want but I'm not seeing the huge discrepancy in numbers on Harden's favor. Wins/Losses are literally the same. Actually, 25% of the Cavs losses are due to LeBron sitting out. They lose those games by 20+ every time. It's embarrassingly awful.

In bed, so I don't have the time to address this right now, but suffice it to say I disagree with most of this. The Rockets losing last season had very little to do with the level of talent around him, Harden is having a much better season statistically than Lebron and LeBron's supporting cast is miles ahead of what Harden has.

brandt
03-06-2017, 12:52 AM
James Harden on the bench, Rockets still outscore opponents. Not indicative of everything else but you're not applying the same formula for Harden. Where were the Rockets before Anderson and Gordon got there? Last I checked, they weren't very good. And you guys added Lou Williams as well. Check the past games for Harden. Even in his terrible games, they are winning by double digits. In some games where they blow teams out, Harden is still on the court. To buff his numbers up? IDK, I just don't see why he's in the court for 40 minutes when they are winning by 16+. I'll add some examples:

Vs. Clippers. Below average game but they win by 19.
Vs. Minny. Below average game. Wins by double digits.
Vs Pelicans. Terrible game. Win by 30.
Vs Charlotte. Decent game. Wins by 12.
Vs. Orlando. Terrible game. Win by 24.
Vs. Sacramento. Another terrible game. Wins by high margin.

I can't imagine Russell or LeBron winning those games with performances of such. Capela has stepped up big time for the Rockets as well. I get Harden's impact but all signs point to his team being underrated while Harden gets the most credit.

For comparison purposes, check how many games Cleveland wins when LeBron has terrible games (very few. He's shot below 50% just 18 times and they usually end up losing when he's just having a bad game). Houston has won many games with Harden playing below average and often in double digits.

Just looking at the numbers, LeBron is having a better season. Less assists and points but Harden's turnovers and efficiency gives the advantage to LeBron. You can decide by TS% if you want but I'm not seeing the huge discrepancy in numbers on Harden's favor. Wins/Losses are literally the same. Actually, 25% of the Cavs losses are due to LeBron sitting out. They lose those games by 20+ every time. It's embarrassingly awful.
Exactly, thank you!

JordansBulls
03-06-2017, 01:48 AM
James Harden on the bench, Rockets still outscore opponents. Not indicative of everything else but you're not applying the same formula for Harden. Where were the Rockets before Anderson and Gordon got there? Last I checked, they weren't very good. And you guys added Lou Williams as well. Check the past games for Harden. Even in his terrible games, they are winning by double digits. In some games where they blow teams out, Harden is still on the court. To buff his numbers up? IDK, I just don't see why he's in the court for 40 minutes when they are winning by 16+. I'll add some examples:

Vs. Clippers. Below average game but they win by 19.
Vs. Minny. Below average game. Wins by double digits.
Vs Pelicans. Terrible game. Win by 30.
Vs Charlotte. Decent game. Wins by 12.
Vs. Orlando. Terrible game. Win by 24.
Vs. Sacramento. Another terrible game. Wins by high margin.

I can't imagine Russell or LeBron winning those games with performances of such. Capela has stepped up big time for the Rockets as well. I get Harden's impact but all signs point to his team being underrated while Harden gets the most credit.

For comparison purposes, check how many games Cleveland wins when LeBron has terrible games (very few. He's shot below 50% just 18 times and they usually end up losing when he's just having a bad game). Houston has won many games with Harden playing below average and often in double digits.

Just looking at the numbers, LeBron is having a better season. Less assists and points but Harden's turnovers and efficiency gives the advantage to LeBron. You can decide by TS% if you want but I'm not seeing the huge discrepancy in numbers on Harden's favor. Wins/Losses are literally the same. Actually, 25% of the Cavs losses are due to LeBron sitting out. They lose those games by 20+ every time. It's embarrassingly awful.


Lebron isn't having a better season. Lebron is 4th in VORP and 5th in Box Plus/Minus. Other than that he isn't top 5 in anything. Harden and Westbrook are top 5 in nearly every one of the advanced stats.

Also it is not like Lebron is sitting out against bad teams. He sits out in back to back games on the road which would be very difficult to win anyway. Harden also was the only allstar on the squad, while the Cavs have 3. Now you add Korver and Deron which makes 5.

brandt
03-06-2017, 01:52 AM
Look at the Pelicans last season. They essentially had Gordon and Anderson, plus a similar player skillset wise to Capela in Asik and a couple of competent starters in Holliday and Evans (arguably better than Beverley and Ariza). Oh, and they had this guy named Anthony Davis.

Yeah, that team was a lottery team last season. Take Harden off this team, and I guarantee you it's not as good as last year's Pelicans. You point is a bad one.
My point is a bad one? Even last years Rockets who actually only did have Harden as their only good player, were even better than that lottery team you claim was so good. Gordon has potential to be the best scorer off the bench out of the whole NBA. He's much better than last year. NeNe has played well, and Beverly, Capella, Decker AND Harell are all much improved. They also just got Williams. I could be wrong but I think Anderson got hurt last year and hasn't yet this year. They still play really well with Harden on the bench so actually, your point is just as bad if not worse, sorry.

FlashBolt
03-06-2017, 02:03 AM
In bed, so I don't have the time to address this right now, but suffice it to say I disagree with most of this. The Rockets losing last season had very little to do with the level of talent around him, Harden is having a much better season statistically than Lebron and LeBron's supporting cast is miles ahead of what Harden has.

1) Outside of Kyrie+Love (who has missed nearly 30% of available games), who is the "miles ahead" player?
2) Much better season statistically? It depends on how you want to select the statistics but one guy has inflated numbers and you don't need me to tell you how.
3) Can you explain how Rockets win games by high margins despite Harden having mediocre or terrible performances?


Lebron isn't having a better season. Lebron is 4th in VORP and 5th in Box Plus/Minus. Other than that he isn't top 5 in anything. Harden and Westbrook are top 5 in nearly every one of the advanced stats.

Also it is not like Lebron is sitting out against bad teams. He sits out in back to back games on the road which would be very difficult to win anyway. Harden also was the only allstar on the squad, while the Cavs have 3. Now you add Korver and Deron which makes 5.

LMAO at you adding previous all-stars into a team when they haven't been all-stars for years... You clearly aren't biased at all, huh? Better season is subjective. We can play around with all the numbers in the world. I'm pretty sure you never gave LeBron credit when he won in all those advanced statistics that you mentioned so it's only convenient that you suddenly decide to do so now. He sits out back-to-back games and the performance level of the Cavs plummets. That's the bread in the pudding. Kawhi sits out and his team wins by double digits. Very indicative of just how much one team relies on their star player.

JordansBulls
03-06-2017, 02:11 AM
LMAO at you adding previous all-stars into a team when they haven't been all-stars for years... You clearly aren't biased at all, huh? Better season is subjective. We can play around with all the numbers in the world. I'm pretty sure you never gave LeBron credit when he won in all those advanced statistics that you mentioned so it's only convenient that you suddenly decide to do so now. He sits out back-to-back games and the performance level of the Cavs plummets. That's the bread in the pudding. Kawhi sits out and his team wins by double digits. Very indicative of just how much one team relies on their star player.

No I am not. I am not a fan of Harden nor Westbrook nor Kawhi, so I have no reason to be biased. The issue here is that even the Cavs were predicted to have the best record in the league and they don't, not even better than Houston nor San Antonio right now.
Lebron did have the best stats in 2011 and 2012 and didn't even have the best record when he should have with the squads he had.
Kawhi also beat Lebron with no Parker in Cleveland and outplayed him clearly.

Also no one won a 5th MVP without having the best record in the league.

FlashBolt
03-06-2017, 04:08 AM
No I am not. I am not a fan of Harden nor Westbrook nor Kawhi, so I have no reason to be biased. The issue here is that even the Cavs were predicted to have the best record in the league and they don't, not even better than Houston nor San Antonio right now.
Lebron did have the best stats in 2011 and 2012 and didn't even have the best record when he should have with the squads he had.
Kawhi also beat Lebron with no Parker in Cleveland and outplayed him clearly.

Also no one won a 5th MVP without having the best record in the league.

1) You are not partial when it comes to LeBron because you are such a Jordan fanboy and the threat of LeBron even being close to him upsets you.
2) I'm not sure what you're talking about because I can guarantee you no one thought Cavs would have a better record than the Warriors. You're also forgetting that Cavs were without Love for 30% of their games and J.R. Smith was injured for practically the entire season. Houston dealt with relatively zero injuries along with the Spurs. Moral of these sentences is that Cavs lost two of their starting players who contribute 30+ minutes each. J.R. is also one of their best shooters and defenders on the team.
3) You act as if one player can carry a team. I'm not sure WTF you're talking about but the season is not won by who has the best record in the regular season. Go ask Stephen Curry about that.
4) Outplayed how? You're totally not biased at all. Oh wow, he had no Tony Parker.. the Great Tony Parker averaging 10 points. You are totally bad at this.

kdspurman
03-06-2017, 10:51 AM
1) Outside of Kyrie+Love (who has missed nearly 30% of available games), who is the "miles ahead" player?
2) Much better season statistically? It depends on how you want to select the statistics but one guy has inflated numbers and you don't need me to tell you how.
3) Can you explain how Rockets win games by high margins despite Harden having mediocre or terrible performances?



LMAO at you adding previous all-stars into a team when they haven't been all-stars for years... You clearly aren't biased at all, huh? Better season is subjective. We can play around with all the numbers in the world. I'm pretty sure you never gave LeBron credit when he won in all those advanced statistics that you mentioned so it's only convenient that you suddenly decide to do so now. He sits out back-to-back games and the performance level of the Cavs plummets. That's the bread in the pudding. Kawhi sits out and his team wins by double digits. Very indicative of just how much one team relies on their star player.

I don't think you've watched the Spurs much this season tbh. They haven't looked good without Kawhi, and have been super reliant on him. Can't look at the names around him, but rather the production on both ends.

FlashBolt
03-06-2017, 02:27 PM
I don't think you've watched the Spurs much this season tbh. They haven't looked good without Kawhi, and have been super reliant on him. Can't look at the names around him, but rather the production on both ends.

Well, it depends. Which part of what I said was false? Spurs dominated without him in those games I mentioned.

kdspurman
03-06-2017, 02:50 PM
Well, it depends. Which part of what I said was false? Spurs dominated without him in those games I mentioned.

Against who tho? vs The Suns? vs the Nets? or @ Toronto when they were without Derozan?

It's true, but the narrative that you're pushing is false. The games where Lebron was out, who else was out? I think recently for example they lost but they also had no Love, JR Smith is still out, Irving sometimes sits out with him etc...

Dude has as good an argument for MVP as anyone, even Lebron. And if they get the #1, he should be the favorite. They're over-achieving this year, due to his brilliance.

Heediot
03-06-2017, 02:56 PM
LeBron like Jordan should win the MVP every year unless someone has a killer season like Curry did the past few. LBJ and Jordan won't always get the votes for the MVP which IMO is unfair.

Downplaying the impact of others to elevate LeBron is not needed. There are four guys this year with legit cases for MVP and whoever wins wouldn't get a complaint from me.

As for last year the Rockets were just full of dysfunction there was poor morale, cohesion and cooperation throughout the organization. It was only two years ago the went to the WCF and Harden has taken the rockets to the playoffs every year he has been in Houston. Although Harden struggled and it was more Howard who influenced the playoffs moreso. But MVP is a regular season award and Harden's style of play is one of the most effective and influential in the regular season so he has that argument for him.

FlashBolt
03-06-2017, 03:53 PM
Against who tho? vs The Suns? vs the Nets? or @ Toronto when they were without Derozan?

It's true, but the narrative that you're pushing is false. The games where Lebron was out, who else was out? I think recently for example they lost but they also had no Love, JR Smith is still out, Irving sometimes sits out with him etc...

Dude has as good an argument for MVP as anyone, even Lebron. And if they get the #1, he should be the favorite. They're over-achieving this year, due to his brilliance.

I have Kawhi #2/#3 in MVP ahead of Russ so I'm not sure why you think the narrative I'm pushing as false. I provided the fact that Spurs are dominating without him. I'm not sure which part of that is false considering you can easily look it up. Kawhi's easily a top five player but I think LeBron does more for his team right now.

TheIlladelph16
03-06-2017, 04:32 PM
I think all of Harden, Kawhi, Lebron and Westbrook have very good arguments for MVP. I would probably lean towards one of the first three, but if any one those guys win it, then I think it was a solid pick.

kdspurman
03-06-2017, 04:36 PM
I have Kawhi #2/#3 in MVP ahead of Russ so I'm not sure why you think the narrative I'm pushing as false. I provided the fact that Spurs are dominating without him. I'm not sure which part of that is false considering you can easily look it up. Kawhi's easily a top five player but I think LeBron does more for his team right now.

I guess what I got from the initial reply was that you feel Kawhi has a good enough team for them to dominate when he's out, without factoring in who they played. Those opponents I listed aren't exactly great teams. Lebron actually has a much better supporting cast than Kawhi does.

Lebron probably creates more for his teammates, because he's basically a PG. But idk if I can say he does more for his team than Kawhi. How Lebron is offensively with directing guys, is kind of the role Kawhi has on the defensive end. He doesn't take nights off

I'm sure there is something similar for Lebron, but just look at this sample

838432988333551616

Sactown
03-06-2017, 05:24 PM
I guess what I got from the initial reply was that you feel Kawhi has a good enough team for them to dominate when he's out, without factoring in who they played. Those opponents I listed aren't exactly great teams. Lebron actually has a much better supporting cast than Kawhi does.

Lebron probably creates more for his teammates, because he's basically a PG. But idk if I can say he does more for his team than Kawhi. How Lebron is offensively with directing guys, is kind of the role Kawhi has on the defensive end. He doesn't take nights off

I'm sure there is something similar for Lebron, but just look at this sample

838432988333551616

Kawhi is so much better defensively than

Harden
RWB
LBJ

That it's hard for me to pick someone else. And his team has far more wins as well.

mightybosstone
03-06-2017, 06:56 PM
James Harden on the bench, Rockets still outscore opponents.
lol. That's because their bench is playing the other team's bench. You're not taking that into account. The Rockets bench is very good. Obviously they're going to outscore other benches. That's common sense and says nothing whatsoever of Harden as a basketball player.


Where were the Rockets before Anderson and Gordon got there? Last I checked, they weren't very good.
You can't compare season to season like that. It doesn't work that way. Hell, look at the team the season before last. It was almost an identical roster to last season's team, and they went from the Western Conference Finals to playing .500 basketball. Houston sucked last year for a million different reasons, but the level of talent on the court had very little to do with it.

If you look at the talent from last year's team to this year's team, it's hardly a huge improvement. Dwight is easily worth Gordon and Anderson combined. The big differences this year is that: A. They have a coach who knows how to play Morey's style of basketball; B. Morey finally went out and got shooters; and C. Harden actually likes playing with all these guys.


And you guys added Lou Williams as well. Check the past games for Harden. Even in his terrible games, they are winning by double digits. In some games where they blow teams out, Harden is still on the court. To buff his numbers up? IDK, I just don't see why he's in the court for 40 minutes when they are winning by 16+.
I went back and looked, and there were literally two instances this entire season when the Rockets beat teams by more than 10 or more points and Harden played at least 40 minutes. So your point is pretty inaccurate. And the reason I think he plays in the 4th quarters of some of these blowouts is that the Rockets have had problems closing out teams this season. Multiple times this year, they've had double digit leads evaporate in 4th quarters, many times with Harden sitting on the bench.


I'll add some examples:

Vs. Clippers. Below average game but they win by 19.
Vs. Minny. Below average game. Wins by double digits.
Vs Pelicans. Terrible game. Win by 30.
Vs Charlotte. Decent game. Wins by 12.
Vs. Orlando. Terrible game. Win by 24.
Vs. Sacramento. Another terrible game. Wins by high margin.

Congratulations on your extremely small sample size! For starters, that Clippers game was not remotely "below average." The dude put up 26/9/3/1 on only 15 shots and hit 4 of 9 3-pointers. That's a great game—maybe a little below his standards, but he was very good that night.

And looking at your other games, I'd disagree with many of those as well. He put up 24/10/5/2/1 against Minnesota on only 15 shots, had 14 assists against New Orleans on a night when his shot wasn't falling (and he only took 9 shots, because they were killing the Pelicans), put up 30/8/11 on 21 shots against Charlotte and had 25/13/6 on 21 shots against Orlando. He might not have shot the ball particularly well and he might have turned the ball over a lot in some of those games, but the guy was still scoring points with relative efficiency and wracking up assists while running one of the most potent offenses in the league.


Capela has stepped up big time for the Rockets as well. I get Harden's impact but all signs point to his team being underrated while Harden gets the most credit.
Capela has played well, but he's essentially just an athletic pick and roll player and an above average rebounder. He struggles mightily in the low post defensively at times, and he has no range or shot creation ability outside of 5 feet offensively. Without Harden's incredible pick and roll creating ability, Capela is a nobody.


For comparison purposes, check how many games Cleveland wins when LeBron has terrible games (very few. He's shot below 50% just 18 times and they usually end up losing when he's just having a bad game). Houston has won many games with Harden playing below average and often in double digits.
So what? Harden has been more productive overall and has had more spectacular production across the board. The only thing your little test proves is that Lebron is more consistent. But he also doesn't have nearly the offensive workload that Harden has. Harden's USG% this season is significantly higher, and Houston's offensive is far more reliant on Harden than Cleveland's offense is on James. When you're responsible for as much of your team's offensive production as Harden is, you're going to have some off nights.


Just looking at the numbers, LeBron is having a better season. Less assists and points but Harden's turnovers and efficiency gives the advantage to LeBron. You can decide by TS% if you want but I'm not seeing the huge discrepancy in numbers on Harden's favor. Wins/Losses are literally the same. Actually, 25% of the Cavs losses are due to LeBron sitting out. They lose those games by 20+ every time. It's embarrassingly awful.
And here's where you just go completely off the deep end. Harden's scoring more points, boasting more assists and rebounds and producing at a more efficient level. Their TS% may be identical, but Harden crushes Lebron in literally every other advanced statistic across the board, including PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM. And his team has even been better by pretty much any barometer you want to use (winning percentage, point differential and SRS), despite playing in a tougher conference and having a much more challenging schedule.


1) Outside of Kyrie+Love (who has missed nearly 30% of available games), who is the "miles ahead" player?
I'd say that's pretty much enough right there. Would you rather have Kyrie and Love or Gordon and Anderson? But even if we go deeper, I'd rather have Thompson than Capela as well. Throw in guys like Shumpert, Korver, Williams, Smith, Bogut and Frye, and I'd argue that Cleveland has the deeper roster top to bottom.


2) Much better season statistically? It depends on how you want to select the statistics but one guy has inflated numbers and you don't need me to tell you how.

Well, I actually watch Rockets games, so I'll take my opinion over yours on this one, thanks.


3) Can you explain how Rockets win games by high margins despite Harden having mediocre or terrible performances?
Yeah, chief. It's actually really easy. It's called 3-pointers. When Houston hits its 3-pointers, they're really hard to beat. Also, Harden doesn't have a lot of "terrible performances" as you're suggesting. Even on nights when his shot isn't falling, he's the one creating a lot of those open looks. His penetration is what makes the entire thing work. And even on nights when he's not hitting shots, he's every bit as efficient offensively as someone like Lebron because of his ability to draw contact.

kdspurman
03-06-2017, 07:59 PM
Kawhi is so much better defensively than

Harden
RWB
LBJ

That it's hard for me to pick someone else. And his team has far more wins as well.

If they get the 1 seed, I think his chances jump even more. Tho it does seem the media is pushing Harden/WB

valade16
03-06-2017, 08:06 PM
We may look back at Russell Westbrook and discover he was the most disrespected superstar of our time.

aman_13
03-06-2017, 08:27 PM
I'm just going to throw Lowry's name in here. Not that he's going to win, not even close, but he's put up great numbers on superstar like effeciency.

The Raps are a completely different team without him. It really shows how big his impact was when you watch the team play. They are so out of sync.

aman_13
03-06-2017, 08:44 PM
I will go with Harden. As great as Westbrook has been, his team is dropping off and he's not anywhere close to as effecient has Harden or the other candidates.

valade16
03-06-2017, 09:24 PM
I will go with Harden. As great as Westbrook has been, his team is dropping off and he's not anywhere close to as effecient has Harden or the other candidates.

Efficiency as in scoring efficiency? That's somewhat relative considering his Usage rate is absolutely massive at 42.1%. That blows the previous record out of the water. Here is the top Usage rates of all-time coupled with their TS%:

Dwyane Wade 36.2% USG | 57.4 TS%
Michael Jordan 38.3% USG | 56.2 TS%
Kobe Bryant 38.7% USG | 55.9 TS%
Russell Westbrook 42.1% USG | 54.6 TS% (Current Season)
Russell Westbrook 38.4% USG | 53.6 TS%
Jermaine O'Neal 36.2% USG | 52.0 TS%
Allen Iverson 37.8% USG | 48.9 TS%

His Usage rate is right in line with other players who have put up high usage rates. In fact, his TS% is the 2nd highest in his entire career.

mightybosstone
03-06-2017, 09:40 PM
Efficiency as in scoring efficiency? That's somewhat relative considering his Usage rate is absolutely massive at 42.1%. That blows the previous record out of the water. Here is the top Usage rates of all-time coupled with their TS%:

Dwyane Wade 36.2% USG | 57.4 TS%
Michael Jordan 38.3% USG | 56.2 TS%
Kobe Bryant 38.7% USG | 55.9 TS%
Russell Westbrook 42.1% USG | 54.6 TS% (Current Season)
Russell Westbrook 38.4% USG | 53.6 TS%
Jermaine O'Neal 36.2% USG | 52.0 TS%
Allen Iverson 37.8% USG | 48.9 TS%

His Usage rate is right in line with other players who have put up high usage rates. In fact, his TS% is the 2nd highest in his entire career.
Yeah, but regardless of his USG%, Westy has never been a particularly efficient scorer. This season is really no different in that regard. The guy is a volume scorer and a spotty perimeter shooter. That's just who he is.

rhino17
03-06-2017, 09:48 PM
It's Harden's to lose, he is the clear #1 right now

next up would be imo:
-Kawai
-I. Thomas
-Lebron
-Russel (only because of stats, generally I think you need a top 5 record to be considered - harden is putting up almost the same stats an winning, so these are not as impressive to me)

tredigs
03-06-2017, 10:00 PM
It's Harden's to lose, he is the clear #1 right now

next up would be imo:
-Kawai
-I. Thomas
-Lebron
-Russel (only because of stats, generally I think you need a top 5 record to be considered - harden is putting up almost the same stats an winning, so these are not as impressive to me)

The difference is that when Westbrook sits, his team implodes. When Harden sits, the team gains ground. Obviously that is going to cause a chasm in the W/L record. And while Harden puts up "almost the same stats", their is clearly a difference with Westbrook and the Triple Double. It's a massive talking point, and will significantly impact the voting. As far as record goes, it's incredibly rare that a non top-2 seed wins MVP, so that is not as big a negative for Westbrook in relation to Harden as it would be in a normal MVP season.

There's also the addition of how good Westbrook has been in the clutch this year (significantly better than Harden), and that gaining some national attention recently. He has a real chance to win it.

kdspurman
03-07-2017, 12:15 AM
It's Harden's to lose, he is the clear #1 right now

next up would be imo:
-Kawai
-I. Thomas
-Lebron
-Russel (only because of stats, generally I think you need a top 5 record to be considered - harden is putting up almost the same stats an winning, so these are not as impressive to me)

Even before tonight, I thought Kawhi was there with him. It might be clear cause he's getting most of the attention, but in terms of on court stuff, Kawhi is easily right there.

Just under the radar due to him being quiet and a Spur

valade16
03-07-2017, 12:37 AM
The difference is that when Westbrook sits, his team implodes. When Harden sits, the team gains ground. Obviously that is going to cause a chasm in the W/L record. And while Harden puts up "almost the same stats", their is clearly a difference with Westbrook and the Triple Double. It's a massive talking point, and will significantly impact the voting. As far as record goes, it's incredibly rare that a non top-2 seed wins MVP, so that is not as big a negative for Westbrook in relation to Harden as it would be in a normal MVP season.

There's also the addition of how good Westbrook has been in the clutch this year (significantly better than Harden), and that gaining some national attention recently. He has a real chance to win it.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

Saw a stat about Russell Westbrook's impact on the TS% of his teammates when he's on the floor vs. off:

S. Adams +24.1%
J. Lauvergne +16.0%
D. Sabonis +13.1%
A Abrines +11.4%
V. Oladipo +7.3%
J. Grant +4.2%
A. Roberson -1.1%
E. Kanter -2.0%
A. Morrow -2.4%

For the most part he is helping his teammates scoring efficiency tremendously, heck even the ones that are negatively impacted are barely impacted at all. In terms of importance to a team, Westbrook is tops in the league.

rhino17
03-07-2017, 12:49 AM
Even before tonight, I thought Kawhi was there with him. It might be clear cause he's getting most of the attention, but in terms of on court stuff, Kawhi is easily right there.

Just under the radar due to him being quiet and a Spur
I think anyone that watches all the NBA (which a lot of people openly admit not to doing) had Kawai in the top 3 or at least they should have. They are hard to compare, Kawai is arguably the best defender in the league (which harden is lacking) and Harden is arguably the best playmaker in the league (which Kawai is lacking). I would still give Harden the edge but Kawai is the #2 for me, certainly ahead of russel. It also doesn't hurt that Kawai has the best coach is all of sports, ever, imo

Either way, the 2nd round playoff matchup between the 2 should be amazing

GREATNESS ONE
03-07-2017, 12:54 AM
It's hands down Westbrook. If he averages a triple double for a season... seriously? It's robbery not to give him the MVP. First player to do it since Oscar Robertson, to snub him of that because his playoff team is less W's in W/L column is an unnaprecitiation to what Westy is doing.... a lot of other deserving players but this award should go to RW

GREATNESS ONE
03-07-2017, 12:55 AM
I think anyone that watches all the NBA (which a lot of people openly admit not to doing) had Kawai in the top 3 or at least they should have. They are hard to compare, Kawai is arguably the best defender in the league (which harden is lacking) and Harden is arguably the best playmaker in the league (which Kawai is lacking). I would still give Harden the edge but Kawai is the #2 for me, certainly ahead of russel. It also doesn't hurt that Kawai has the best coach is all of sports, ever, imo

Either way, the 2nd round playoff matchup between the 2 should be amazing

Kawhi is the best two way player in the game.

LA_Raiders
03-07-2017, 01:49 AM
It has to be westbrick, he is having a hell of a season with bunch of scrubs as teammates.

ewing
03-07-2017, 02:19 AM
I agree with pretty much all of this.

Saw a stat about Russell Westbrook's impact on the TS% of his teammates when he's on the floor vs. off:

S. Adams +24.1%
J. Lauvergne +16.0%
D. Sabonis +13.1%
A Abrines +11.4%
V. Oladipo +7.3%
J. Grant +4.2%
A. Roberson -1.1%
E. Kanter -2.0%
A. Morrow -2.4%

For the most part he is helping his teammates scoring efficiency tremendously, heck even the ones that are negatively impacted are barely impacted at all. In terms of importance to a team, Westbrook is tops in the league.

Great post. Westy is the only guy on the team that can create a shot. Most of the guys can't even hit a contested J from range. In the past when he had guys you could say dominated the ball too much but now it's all Westy


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aman_13
03-07-2017, 03:19 AM
Efficiency as in scoring efficiency? That's somewhat relative considering his Usage rate is absolutely massive at 42.1%. That blows the previous record out of the water. Here is the top Usage rates of all-time coupled with their TS%:

Dwyane Wade 36.2% USG | 57.4 TS%
Michael Jordan 38.3% USG | 56.2 TS%
Kobe Bryant 38.7% USG | 55.9 TS%
Russell Westbrook 42.1% USG | 54.6 TS% (Current Season)
Russell Westbrook 38.4% USG | 53.6 TS%
Jermaine O'Neal 36.2% USG | 52.0 TS%
Allen Iverson 37.8% USG | 48.9 TS%

His Usage rate is right in line with other players who have put up high usage rates. In fact, his TS% is the 2nd highest in his entire career.

It's a fair argument but I don't think we should be commending Westbrook's effeciency because his usage rate is really high. I think that's a little unfair to other candidates. His usage is extremely high because he has to carry that load. Although one could easily make the argument that he's doing too much.

I definetely give him credit for being able to keep up his tripe double pace; it's really impressive. However, If we replaced him with Harden or LeBron, who's to say they don't replicate his raw numbers. Harden is close anyway, and at a much lower usage rate.

nastynice
03-07-2017, 03:24 AM
This is probably the most up in the air MVP I can remember. Like 3-4 candidates that are so hard to separate

Hawkeye15
03-07-2017, 11:08 AM
for me personally

Leonard
Harden

Westbrook

LeBron

ewing
03-08-2017, 08:13 AM
It's a fair argument but I don't think we should be commending Westbrook's effeciency because his usage rate is really high. I think that's a little unfair to other candidates. His usage is extremely high because he has to carry that load. Although one could easily make the argument that he's doing too much.

I definetely give him credit for being able to keep up his tripe double pace; it's really impressive. However, If we replaced him with Harden or LeBron, who's to say they don't replicate his raw numbers. Harden is close anyway, and at a much lower usage rate.

I say they don't.


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Vinylman
03-08-2017, 09:53 AM
Basically there are two ways people look at the MVP

1. You have to finish in the top 2 in your conference or win 60 games (The team record matters criteria)
2. The guy with the best stats / historical year (The team record doesn't matter as much criteria)

For me it is pretty easy

criteria 1 its KL LBJ IT in that order

criteria 2 its RW KL JH LBJ

In most years I roll with criteria 1 but when something "historic" is happening I can be convinced of criteria 2 taking precedence.

If the season ended today I would give it to RW in a real tight race...

who do I think will win... no idea LOL

Shammyguy3
03-08-2017, 10:14 AM
Basically there are two ways people look at the MVP

1. You have to finish in the top 2 in your conference or win 60 games (The team record matters criteria)
2. The guy with the best stats / historical year (The team record doesn't matter as much criteria)

For me it is pretty easy

criteria 1 its KL LBJ IT in that order

criteria 2 its RW KL JH LBJ

In most years I roll with criteria 1 but when something "historic" is happening I can be convinced of criteria 2 taking precedence.

If the season ended today I would give it to RW in a real tight race...

who do I think will win... no idea LOL
What if you are the 3rd record in the west but that would actually be the top seed in the east?

FlashBolt
03-08-2017, 12:33 PM
I have to concede. With the way Kawhi has played the past few games, I have bumped him ahead of LeBron. Had it 1) LeBron 2) Kawhi 3) Harden.
Convinced now that Kawhi has been amazing the past few games to usurp Bron. Still think Harden wins, though.

IKnowHoops
03-08-2017, 12:50 PM
We may look back at Russell Westbrook and discover he was the most disrespected superstar of our time.

100% agree

IKnowHoops
03-08-2017, 01:08 PM
1. Westy
2. Harden
3. Leonard
4. Bron


I do think Lebron is the MVP to his team as always...but I just have to give respect to what Russ is doing. Even if he is stat padding a little, the fact that he is going out and getting 11 reb every game is crazy in itself. People are helpless when he is coming at them full speed. If he played smarter, passed more and shot less, I think he would be the unquestioned #2 basketball player in the NBA.

I'm not impressed at all with his scoring, shooting at 42%. And for the longest time, I acknowledged Westbrooks greatness, but wouldn't want him on my team. But watching him this year changed that. He is to much of a weapon and a terror and if he is just driving, he is unstoppable.

Vinylman
03-08-2017, 01:14 PM
What if you are the 3rd record in the west but that would actually be the top seed in the east?

that is a good point ... then in criteria 1 I would move Harden past IT into 3rd place...

Personally, I place more value on 2 way players ... that is why I have KL and LBJ ahead of Harden...

Harden is an unbelievable talent who is finally in the perfect system

Again, you can't really go wrong on any of the 4 main guys (RW KL JH LBJ)

All are deserving

tredigs
03-08-2017, 01:52 PM
I truly don't know who I would choose. This one is going down to the wire. As is I'd say Kawhi has taken over the driver's seat.

Bostonjorge
03-08-2017, 02:25 PM
Lebron is leading the league in nothing. Not points, rebound or assists. Don't have the best record or the second or even the third. So how does he even have a chance of getting MVP? He don't and that's the truth. It's not a knock just some simple facts that eliminates him for the MVP conversation.

Bostonjorge
03-08-2017, 02:38 PM
I agree with pretty much all of this.

Saw a stat about Russell Westbrook's impact on the TS% of his teammates when he's on the floor vs. off:

S. Adams +24.1%
J. Lauvergne +16.0%
D. Sabonis +13.1%
A Abrines +11.4%
V. Oladipo +7.3%
J. Grant +4.2%
A. Roberson -1.1%
E. Kanter -2.0%
A. Morrow -2.4%

For the most part he is helping his teammates scoring efficiency tremendously, heck even the ones that are negatively impacted are barely impacted at all. In terms of importance to a team, Westbrook is tops in the league.

Okc is also dead last in 3 point shooting. In today's NBA that equals losing basketball yet Westbrook willed this team in the playoffs while making history again.

valade16
03-08-2017, 06:12 PM
I truly don't know who I would choose. This one is going down to the wire. As is I'd say Kawhi has taken over the driver's seat.

We're at the point in the season where every good game or big moment from the candidates "completely changes the race!"

It will waffle back and forth between Westy, Harden, Kawhi, LeBron, etc. until the very end.

tredigs
03-08-2017, 06:32 PM
We're at the point in the season where every good game or big moment from the candidates "completely changes the race!"

It will waffle back and forth between Westy, Harden, Kawhi, LeBron, etc. until the very end.

Yeah for sure, that Kawhi sequence (especially since on Harden and for the win) legitimately shifted him slightly ahead for me, as ridiculous as that is. It's that close right now.

aman_13
03-08-2017, 06:53 PM
I say they don't.


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Even if they don't, I'm sure the impact would be just as great. They probably have more wins right now.

aman_13
03-08-2017, 06:58 PM
Just thinking from a voters perspective, I don't see how Leonard would win even though a strong case can be made for him to be the front runner.

All season the debate has been between Harden and Westbrook and a lot of it was based on what they were doing with the talent level surrounding them. Again, it's an unfair way to look at it but I think the voters will look at pre season predictions.

FlashBolt
03-08-2017, 09:20 PM
Last few games puts Kawhi ahead for me. Definitely over Westbrook.

tredigs
03-09-2017, 03:19 AM
And funnily enough, tonight's incredible Spurs comeback (best in their history) win took a **** on his campaign.

FlashBolt
03-09-2017, 10:53 AM
And funnily enough, tonight's incredible Spurs comeback (best in their history) win took a **** on his campaign.

Yeah, this is why I keep going back and forth between every few games or so. It's really that close and might be the closest we've seen in awhile. Spurs winning without Kawhi again is just too difficult to ignore. They are now 5-1 without Kawhi. Last night, they did it without both Kawhi and LaMarcus. Something tells me Pop is the MVP...

kdspurman
03-09-2017, 11:03 AM
Kawhi likely wasn't going to win it anyway due to the Harden/WB attention. But they are beating pretty bad teams without him. It's really not saying that much tbh

FlashBolt
03-09-2017, 11:07 AM
Kawhi likely wasn't going to win it anyway due to the Harden/WB attention. But they are beating pretty bad teams without him. It's really not saying that much tbh

I'm not sure Harden/Westbrook/James teams win without them and that's my point.

kdspurman
03-09-2017, 11:13 AM
I'm not sure Harden/Westbrook/James teams win without them and that's my point.

That's where it comes down to what the voters consider the MVP to be. Not everyone uses that logic. Some have used the best player on the best team, and if SA grabs the #1 seed, who knows. But I don't think them beating bad teams when he sits hurts his case at all. I've seen some voters on twitter say the same

Redrum187
03-09-2017, 02:24 PM
I really hope Kawhi wins it... DPOY player who ups his offensive production (26 ppg) on elite efficiency... He clearly plays the best defense of any of the top 5 MVP candidates...

Firefistus
03-09-2017, 06:19 PM
If the Spurs wind up with the best record in the league it wouldn't surprise me at all if Kawaii earns it. And to all those pie in the sky Giannis fanboys, no matter how you chalk it up, Giannis isn't as good as the others that are mentioned here. Anthony Davis is better than Giannis in every way except assists. But more importantly the most valuable player is someone who contributes the most wins to a team. Like it, or don't like it, bottom line, if you can't help your team win regardless of your team than you will never win the MVP.

Someone in this forum said they were too lazy to pull numbers, so I summoned teh googlez and this is what I got.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-lowest-seed-an-NBA-regular-season-MVPs-team-has-ever-been

The only other MVP winners to play for a team that won fewer than 60% of its regular season games are (they still qualified for the playoffs):

Moses Malone twice for Houston Rockets, in 1978-79 (47–35, .573) and 1981-82 (46–36, .561).
Bob McAdoo for Buffalo Braves, in 1974–75 (49–33, .598).
Of the 61 MVPs to date (from 1955-56 to 2015-16):

39 played for the team with that year’s best regular season record.
23 of them won that season’s championship.

FlashBolt
03-09-2017, 09:03 PM
That's where it comes down to what the voters consider the MVP to be. Not everyone uses that logic. Some have used the best player on the best team, and if SA grabs the #1 seed, who knows. But I don't think them beating bad teams when he sits hurts his case at all. I've seen some voters on twitter say the same

So do you think Spurs winning hurts Kawhi's case? I don't see how it helps. at the end of the day, they are 5-1 and that's a pretty damn good record.

kdspurman
03-09-2017, 09:24 PM
So do you think Spurs winning hurts Kawhi's case? I don't see how it helps. at the end of the day, they are 5-1 and that's a pretty damn good record.

I don't think it hurts his case at all. I haven't seen anyone talking about that. I can't imagine there weren't other MVPs who won games while they were out.

Especially like I said against bad teams. I think voters will care more how these guys play down the stretch of the season.

FlashBolt
03-09-2017, 09:28 PM
I don't think it hurts his case at all. I haven't seen anyone talking about that. I can't imagine there weren't other MVPs who won games while they were out.

Especially like I said against bad teams. I think voters will care more how these guys play down the stretch of the season.

Broussard was talking about it on UNDISPUTED today. I believe he has a vote and he also said that some voters might be cautious of that.

kdspurman
03-09-2017, 09:54 PM
Broussard was talking about it on UNDISPUTED today. I believe he has a vote and he also said that some voters might be cautious of that.

Yea and I've seen other voters say that doesn't matter and Kawhi shouldn't be punished for that. Everyone will have their own criteria and opinion

Jamiecballer
03-09-2017, 10:30 PM
It's lebrons to lose IMO although Leonard would be a solid second choice

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Bostonjorge
03-09-2017, 11:41 PM
Westbrook just tied Wilt Chamberlain for 2nd most triple double in a season.

Wilt Chamberlain!!!

Westbrook needs to be crowned today not at the end of the season.

GREATNESS ONE
03-09-2017, 11:44 PM
Westbrook just tied Wilt Chamberlain for 2nd most triple double in a season.

Wilt Chamberlain!!!

Westbrook needs to be crowned today not at the end of the season.

Crazy! 10 away from Oscar Robertson...

That is absolutely amazing. RW is the MVP.

Chronz
03-10-2017, 01:08 AM
I don't think it hurts his case at all. I haven't seen anyone talking about that. I can't imagine there weren't other MVPs who won games while they were out.

Especially like I said against bad teams. I think voters will care more how these guys play down the stretch of the season.

I specifically remember KG losing MVP ground during the stretch Boston won without him. When he came back it was down to Kobe and CP3.

The whole on/off argument is only a fragment of the story but sometimes the narrative can change on the tiniest of details in a close race. KG should have won the MVP imo, this year I took two preseason bets on Bron and Kawhi, I really hope one of them wins it.

GodsSon
03-10-2017, 01:36 AM
If Russ gets the triple double, it`s going to be hard not to give it to him.

Other then that, it`s LeBron`s.

JordansBulls
03-10-2017, 01:50 AM
If Russ gets the triple double, it`s going to be hard not to give it to him.

Other then that, it`s LeBron`s.

In what way is it Lebron's? Doesn't have the best record nor even close to the best numbers. All of Harden, Westbrook and Kawhi have better numbers and Harden and Kawhi a better record. Not to mention the guys who won there 4th, 5th or 6th MVP did so when they had the best record in the league.

nastynice
03-10-2017, 01:52 AM
Yea, tbh, without Lebron's history he's clearly a step below Harden and Westbrook, and maybe even kawhai. I think his name recognition is playing a small role in this (his season is def impressive, no doubt, but just not to the degree of these other guys)

Switch Lebron's and Isiah Thomas' jerseys for the year, and everybody would be saying Isaiah (in a lebron uniform) is mvp.

HandsOnTheWheel
03-10-2017, 02:32 AM
It's Westbrook's to lose.

IKnowHoops
03-10-2017, 01:18 PM
Yea, tbh, without Lebron's history he's clearly a step below Harden and Westbrook, and maybe even kawhai. I think his name recognition is playing a small role in this (his season is def impressive, no doubt, but just not to the degree of these other guys)

Switch Lebron's and Isiah Thomas' jerseys for the year, and everybody would be saying Isaiah (in a lebron uniform) is mvp.

There certainly is a huge difference watching Lebron vs Isaiah on the court. Its obvious Lebron is much more impactful. The way he quarter backs a team like manning, and then his physical nature. He was dunking at will on detroit yesterday...and they lost, but that is different matter.

Yes I do believe Lebron is getting points on reputation, but not in a bad way. His rep allows us to know he is still the best player in the NBA. His rep allows us to see that he is in regular season mode and still putting up MVP numbers. Every year for the last 6-7 years, he has been the best player in the playoffs by far. So its definitely an earned and legit MVP win if he gets it even if his rep helped out a lot.

nastynice
03-10-2017, 01:30 PM
There certainly is a huge difference watching Lebron vs Isaiah on the court. Its obvious Lebron is much more impactful. The way he quarter backs a team like manning, and then his physical nature. He was dunking at will on detroit yesterday...and they lost, but that is different matter.

Yes I do believe Lebron is getting points on reputation, but not in a bad way. His rep allows us to know he is still the best player in the NBA. His rep allows us to see that he is in regular season mode and still putting up MVP numbers. Every year for the last 6-7 years, he has been the best player in the playoffs by far. So its definitely an earned and legit MVP win if he gets it even if his rep helped out a lot.

It's not an earned and legit MVP, that's the whole point. If the MVP was who's the best player in the league, then only Jordan, Hakeem, shaq, Kobe, and lebron should have MVP awards since the early 90's. But that's not what the award is. At least IMO, guess everyone has their own idea what an MVP is

FlashBolt
03-10-2017, 02:39 PM
Yea, tbh, without Lebron's history he's clearly a step below Harden and Westbrook, and maybe even kawhai. I think his name recognition is playing a small role in this (his season is def impressive, no doubt, but just not to the degree of these other guys)

Switch Lebron's and Isiah Thomas' jerseys for the year, and everybody would be saying Isaiah (in a lebron uniform) is mvp.

Isaiah in a LeBron jersey and the Cavs wouldn't be in the same position... Isaiah just scores. His defense is terrible and he doesn't make plays for others. I have him on my fantasy team and he's great IF you need scoring/3PM/FT%. He's terrible at every other aspect of the game and it has a lot to do with his size. I actually think Celtics are a better team than Cavs if they had LeBron. The defense and team in general would be more complete. You're not really providing an argument.

ewing
03-10-2017, 05:00 PM
Isaiah in a LeBron jersey and the Cavs wouldn't be in the same position... Isaiah just scores. His defense is terrible and he doesn't make plays for others. I have him on my fantasy team and he's great IF you need scoring/3PM/FT%. He's terrible at every other aspect of the game and it has a lot to do with his size. I actually think Celtics are a better team than Cavs if they had LeBron. The defense and team in general would be more complete. You're not really providing an argument.

Isiah absolutely makes plays for others

Jamiecballer
03-10-2017, 05:38 PM
this is what will happen imo. at the end of the season, when everyone has a chance to digest what has happened during the regular season, people will look a little closer at the stats. without the media driven euphoria of triple doubles and other leaderboard stats, something will become clear to a significant number of voters. westbrook and harden have put up historic numbers and had incredible seasons, but both have done so on the backs of unjustifiably high usage (this applies moreso to westbrook than harden).

voters will come to their senses and Lebron will win with Leonard the runner-up.

JordansBulls
03-11-2017, 12:34 AM
this is what will happen imo. at the end of the season, when everyone has a chance to digest what has happened during the regular season, people will look a little closer at the stats. without the media driven euphoria of triple doubles and other leaderboard stats, something will become clear to a significant number of voters. westbrook and harden have put up historic numbers and had incredible seasons, but both have done so on the backs of unjustifiably high usage (this applies moreso to westbrook than harden).

voters will come to their senses and Lebron will win with Leonard the runner-up.

And how will Lebron win when he won't have the best stats nor the best record? Players don't get even a 4th or 5th or 6th MVP without the best record in the league.

Jamiecballer
03-11-2017, 03:03 PM
And how will Lebron win when he won't have the best stats nor the best record? Players don't get even a 4th or 5th or 6th MVP without the best record in the league.

being the best team in one of the conferences in more than enough to qualify. and the part about stats is subjective, some like myself would say that he does have the "best stats".

nastynice
03-11-2017, 04:59 PM
Isaiah in a LeBron jersey and the Cavs wouldn't be in the same position... Isaiah just scores. His defense is terrible and he doesn't make plays for others. I have him on my fantasy team and he's great IF you need scoring/3PM/FT%. He's terrible at every other aspect of the game and it has a lot to do with his size. I actually think Celtics are a better team than Cavs if they had LeBron. The defense and team in general would be more complete. You're not really providing an argument.

I am providing an argument. You just disagree with the conclusion it lead me to

ManRam
03-11-2017, 05:06 PM
Yea, tbh, without Lebron's history he's clearly a step below Harden and Westbrook, and maybe even kawhai. I think his name recognition is playing a small role in this (his season is def impressive, no doubt, but just not to the degree of these other guys)

Switch Lebron's and Isiah Thomas' jerseys for the year, and everybody would be saying Isaiah (in a lebron uniform) is mvp.

IT is the single worst defender in the league. I don't quite buy this....

Bostonjorge
03-11-2017, 05:07 PM
being the best team in one of the conferences in more than enough to qualify. and the part about stats is subjective, some like myself would say that he does have the "best stats".
I have not heard anyone foolish enough to say James has the best stats. That's the definition of a stan.

ewing
03-11-2017, 05:46 PM
IT is the single worst defender in the league. I don't quite buy this....

I don't quite by that either. Last year the Celtics were 4th overall in defensive rating with IT playing 34 mins a night. This year they are 20th or something. Other things clearly have changed. I don't think its just IT getting smoked. I'm pretty sure opposing coaches were aware of the fact that he is 5'8 (at best) before this year. I will say he is limited defensively and Celtics other perimiter defenders are good but i'm not buying "worse defender in the league" yet. IDK. I'd actually like to hear more about the difference b/t this year and last from fans that watch the team a lot. IT doesn't have Bron's impact but his team would suck without him IMO so he deserve props.

Jamiecballer
03-11-2017, 07:53 PM
I have not heard anyone foolish enough to say James has the best stats. That's the definition of a stan.

in typical fashion you confuse quantity for quality. i assume you would lean towards westbrook?

i think a reasonable case can be made for either James, Leonard or Harden. Westbrook absolutely not.

GREATNESS ONE
03-11-2017, 11:03 PM
32 triple doubles speak for itself, he has 16 games to get 9 more to tie The Big O.

I think he can get there, if he does, you hand him the MVP.

tredigs
03-11-2017, 11:15 PM
32 triple doubles speak for itself, he has 16 games to get 9 more to tie The Big O.

I think he can get there, if he does, you hand him the MVP.

Eh - I'm definitely not convinced he's been the best player in the NBA this season. And he would have to be BY FAR the best player in the NBA this season to win MVP as a 7 seed without thought (hint: far from). Seeing as 7 seeds win MVP's never. There's nothing open/shut about his campaign. Especially when you consider that rebounds are POURED to him in order to earn his triple doubles. His very mediocre shooting on ridiculous usage does not necessarily help his case (though a necessary on his offensively inept squad).

kdspurman
03-11-2017, 11:19 PM
Kawhi hurting his MVP case again with the Spurs beating the Warriors without him

tredigs
03-12-2017, 12:13 AM
Kawhi hurting his MVP case again with the Spurs beating the Warriors without him

Lol (assuming that's a joke at least).

kdspurman
03-12-2017, 12:16 AM
Lol (assuming that's a joke at least).

It is.. some think their record without him hurts his chances, even tho they didn't play good teams without him.. looking at the record while ignoring the opponents

More-Than-Most
03-12-2017, 01:50 AM
I see no argument for it not to be James or KL...

James
KL

Harden


Westy


If we are just going by these 4... Again James is 5 times the defender that harden or westy is.. KL is the best defender of the 4.... Normal lebron haters in here praying to god the voters dont wise up and give him what should be like his 20th MVP which he deserves yet again.

Jamiecballer
03-12-2017, 10:39 AM
I see no argument for it not to be James or KL...

James
KL

Harden


Westy


If we are just going by these 4... Again James is 5 times the defender that harden or westy is.. KL is the best defender of the 4.... Normal lebron haters in here praying to god the voters dont wise up and give him what should be like his 20th MVP which he deserves yet again.

pretty much agree with the order and the whitespace lol

mightybosstone
03-12-2017, 11:44 PM
Harden outplayed Lebron tonight, and the Rockets got a big win to finish off a really tough stretch of basketball over the last six games. I wouldn't put this performance on the scale of Kawhi's big night last week, but James had had enough of these types of performances (was nearly his 6th 40-point triple double of the season) to be leading this conversation.

LA_Raiders
03-13-2017, 12:07 AM
Westbrook is the MVP no question, he is the best player in the league.

1-Westbrook
2-Harden
3-Leonard

More-Than-Most
03-13-2017, 12:58 AM
Harden outplayed Lebron tonight, and the Rockets got a big win to finish off a really tough stretch of basketball over the last six games. I wouldn't put this performance on the scale of Kawhi's big night last week, but James had had enough of these types of performances (was nearly his 6th 40-point triple double of the season) to be leading this conversation.

except wait for it................... DEFENSE MATTERS ESP for the MVP.... and Lebron and KL are not that far away on offense to ignore the defensive impact... Harden did out play lebron tonight... its 1 game with the rockets being at home.. lebron is a much better defender than harden and is just as good everywhere else and 1 game doesnt just negate that.

ewing
03-13-2017, 05:27 AM
except wait for it................... DEFENSE MATTERS ESP for the MVP.... and Lebron and KL are not that far away on offense to ignore the defensive impact... Harden did out play lebron tonight... its 1 game with the rockets being at home.. lebron is a much better defender than harden and is just as good everywhere else and 1 game doesnt just negate that.


that's not true. That's not even arguable.

mightybosstone
03-13-2017, 09:18 AM
except wait for it................... DEFENSE MATTERS ESP for the MVP.... and Lebron and KL are not that far away on offense to ignore the defensive impact... Harden did out play lebron tonight... its 1 game with the rockets being at home.. lebron is a much better defender than harden and is just as good everywhere else and 1 game doesnt just negate that.

That's not remotely true. Also, while Leonard and James are superior defenders, the gap is not as large as it has been in previous seasons. Harden has been pretty decent defensively this year, particularly late in close games. He was pretty great last night, actually, getting a key block on Kyrie in the fourth and grabbing the rebound.

The narrative that Harden is some massive liabilty on defense every time he steps on the floor is simply untrue.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2017, 09:29 AM
I've stayed quiet long enough.

Harden is the mvp. He doesn't play as good as defense as some of the other guys but he's nowhere near a turnstyle on defense. He is average to slightly below average. The difference is his offensive production dwarfs someone like Kawhi. Harden accounts for the most points in the league with points and assists added up.

Points created via points and assists.

Harden- 56.4 ppg
Kawhi- 34.8 ppg
Lebron- 49.1 ppg

I don't think Kawhi's defense is worth 21.6 ppg difference.

ewing
03-13-2017, 10:21 AM
I've stayed quiet long enough.

Harden is the mvp. He doesn't play as good as defense as some of the other guys but he's nowhere near a turnstyle on defense. He is average to slightly below average. The difference is his offensive production dwarfs someone like Kawhi. Harden accounts for the most points in the league with points and assists added up.

Points created via points and assists.

Harden- 56.4 ppg
Kawhi- 34.8 ppg
Lebron- 49.1 ppg

I don't think Kawhi's defense is worth 21.6 ppg difference.


idk

tredigs
03-13-2017, 01:13 PM
There's a lot of very good MVP candidates. But nobody has a "great" case. It's still up in the air. Honestly no clue who will win. Though I do have Harden at 20:1 from the preseason so that'd be nice.

Wade n Fade
03-13-2017, 09:55 PM
Leonard is my MVP this season. I cannot give it to Westbrook because he is being a stat padder at times. He is 2nd in turnovers. 42% from the field isn't impressive either. If the Bucks were higher in the playoff standings, I would say that Giannis would be a dark horse, but his Bucks are on the outside looking in trying to fight for the playoffs needing to keep their streak going to crack into a decent playoff spot since nobody wants to play Cleveland in the first round.

KingPosey
03-14-2017, 02:22 AM
Wins are a great way treasure the Most Valuable player. I mean how important can Giannis be if his team couldn't be much worse without him? I mean if he is an MVP caliber player you guys wouldn't be in the lottery in the East.

As much as I hate his posts he has a point there. Talented TEAMS win games. It's super hard for one guy to force a terrible team into competing. Mitch Richmond May be the second best SG of all time and no one would ever know it because of how terrible his teammates were in Sac.

KingPosey
03-14-2017, 02:26 AM
That's not remotely true. Also, while Leonard and James are superior defenders, the gap is not as large as it has been in previous seasons. Harden has been pretty decent defensively this year, particularly late in close games. He was pretty great last night, actually, getting a key block on Kyrie in the fourth and grabbing the rebound.

The narrative that Harden is some massive liabilty on defense every time he steps on the floor is simply untrue.

No it's true. He's an AWFUL defensive player. You can't back that up with anything but an anecdotal moment. I get it, he is relied on a lot offensively but he's dog **** on defense and every single thing points to it.

Heediot
03-14-2017, 07:58 AM
I'll say it straight. I want kawhi to win it. He is the strong quiet type who does his job without any extra noise or attention seeking. I am a fan of his personality and approach to the game. He brings it on both ends of the floor and the spurs have one of the best records. My choice is biased as **** and I'll admit it is what it is. No need for me to disparage the other 3 who are just as deserving. If someone wins so be it.

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 09:03 AM
No it's true. He's an AWFUL defensive player. You can't back that up with anything but an anecdotal moment. I get it, he is relied on a lot offensively but he's dog **** on defense and every single thing points to it.
How about the fact that most advanced defensive metrics back up Harden being a decent defender this season, including a positive DBPM (the highest of his career) and DWS (which is on pace for the highest of his career)?

Or you could trust that I actually watch Rockets games, and I could tell you that this is the James Harden we saw two years ago on defense. It's not a single play, chief. The guy is a legitimately good 1 on 1 man defender. He just gets caught ball watching, which leads to more open jumpers than I'd like. But if his man is in front of him, James is a pretty tough dude to score on.

Htownballa1622
03-14-2017, 09:40 AM
How about the fact that most advanced defensive metrics back up Harden being a decent defender this season, including a positive DBPM (the highest of his career) and DWS (which is on pace for the highest of his career)?

Or you could trust that I actually watch Rockets games, and I could tell you that this is the James Harden we saw two years ago on defense. It's not a single play, chief. The guy is a legitimately good 1 on 1 man defender. He just gets caught ball watching, which leads to more open jumpers than I'd like. But if his man is in front of him, James is a pretty tough dude to score on.

but,but,but ESPN told me that he was a bad defender!:rolleyes:

LA4life24/8
03-14-2017, 12:04 PM
Did big O win mvp the year he avgd a tripdub? If no, westbrook shouldnt win it; if yes than he COULD but also prolly shouldnt. Prolly gotta be harden. 3rd best record in the league #s are pretty damn good, doesnt have an all star caliber teammate. A lot of his #s are dantoni system for sure. But one could say russ #s are because of hifh usg%, kawhis been so good cuz he has the best coach/system etc.

I dont like harden or inflated dantoni stats but #3 record in the league dont lie

TheDish87
03-14-2017, 12:38 PM
for me its Harden but it doesnt get much closer with Leonard and Westbrook right behind him. I cant put James in a top 3, he has a ridiculous amount of help compared to the others and in a softer conf.

valade16
03-14-2017, 12:48 PM
Did big O win mvp the year he avgd a tripdub? If no, westbrook shouldnt win it; if yes than he COULD but also prolly shouldnt. Prolly gotta be harden. 3rd best record in the league #s are pretty damn good, doesnt have an all star caliber teammate. A lot of his #s are dantoni system for sure. But one could say russ #s are because of hifh usg%, kawhis been so good cuz he has the best coach/system etc.

I dont like harden or inflated dantoni stats but #3 record in the league dont lie

He did not, he actually won MVP 2 years later when he averaged 31.4 PPG | 9.9 RPG | 11.0 APG.

DanG
03-14-2017, 03:47 PM
James Harden is the MVP

What's the excuse for LeBron to have the Cavaliers behind the Rockets in the standings?

Russell seems like a statpadder at times plus his record isn't that great

I think the greatness of Gregg Popovich is hurting Leonard's case... I think without him they would still be a playoff team easily while the rockets would be in the lottery without Harden.

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 03:54 PM
James Harden is the MVP

What's the excuse for LeBron to have the Cavaliers behind the Rockets in the standings?

Russell seems like a statpadder at times plus his record isn't that great

I think the greatness of Gregg Popovich is hurting Leonard's case... I think without him they would still be a playoff team easily while the rockets would be in the lottery without Harden.

This is an excellent point. If you take the MVP candidate off the team, which player would have the biggest negative impact in the win-loss column? I think it's got to be Harden. The Spurs still have enough talent, veteran leadership and coaching prowess to be a .500 basketball team without Leonard. The Cavs haven't been good without Lebron, but there's enough talent there if they could stay healthy to hover around .500 or at least compete for a playoff spot in the weak East.

That conversation comes down to Harden versus Westbrook for me. But Harden has a huge edge already in terms of the 8.5 games ahead of OKC that the Rockets are. Also, Houston's offense is totally predicated on Harden's ability to create in the pick and roll. If you take him out of that roster, you have a team of shooters with no offensive creator and a mediocre defense. Capela would be nearly useless. Guys like Ariza, Anderson and Beverley wouldn't fit nearly as well. The whole roster would fall apart.

ewing
03-14-2017, 04:17 PM
This is an excellent point. If you take the MVP candidate off the team, which player would have the biggest negative impact in the win-loss column? I think it's got to be Harden. The Spurs still have enough talent, veteran leadership and coaching prowess to be a .500 basketball team without Leonard. The Cavs haven't been good without Lebron, but there's enough talent there if they could stay healthy to hover around .500 or at least compete for a playoff spot in the weak East.

That conversation comes down to Harden versus Westbrook for me. But Harden has a huge edge already in terms of the 8.5 games ahead of OKC that the Rockets are. Also, Houston's offense is totally predicated on Harden's ability to create in the pick and roll. If you take him out of that roster, you have a team of shooters with no offensive creator and a mediocre defense. Capela would be nearly useless. Guys like Ariza, Anderson and Beverley wouldn't fit nearly as well. The whole roster would fall apart.

What if you replace each guy with Jeremy Lin though? Houston's offensive maybe totally based on Harden in the pick and roll but we've seen a lot of guys put up some big numbers when surrounded by shooters in pick and roll under Mike D.

GREATNESS ONE
03-14-2017, 04:18 PM
Harden/Westbrook
Leonard




James.

It's a 3 horse race.

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 04:54 PM
What if you replace each guy with Jeremy Lin though? Houston's offensive maybe totally based on Harden in the pick and roll but we've seen a lot of guys put up some big numbers when surrounded by shooters in pick and roll under Mike D.

Yeah, but that's like saying "What if you replaced any star with an average player with a similar skill set?" Lin happens to be a really solid pick and roll player, but there are poor man's versions of a lot of other guys in the league. Replace Lebron with Iguodala (SF who can create and defend multiple positions), Westbrook with Lou Williams (volume scoring combo guard) and Leonard with DeMarre Carroll (solid 3 and D guy).

Those guys can play certain roles that those superstars are capable of, but if you swapped those players out, each one of those teams is easily 10-15 wins worse this season. There is no replacement for a superstar level player.

ewing
03-14-2017, 05:46 PM
Yeah, but that's like saying "What if you replaced any star with an average player with a similar skill set?" Lin happens to be a really solid pick and roll player, but there are poor man's versions of a lot of other guys in the league. Replace Lebron with Iguodala (SF who can create and defend multiple positions), Westbrook with Lou Williams (volume scoring combo guard) and Leonard with DeMarre Carroll (solid 3 and D guy).

Those guys can play certain roles that those superstars are capable of, but if you swapped those players out, each one of those teams is easily 10-15 wins worse this season. There is no replacement for a superstar level player.

I think if you replace Harden with a healthy Lin you still have a 500 team. If you replace Westy with Williams OKC wins 6 games.

Bostonjorge
03-14-2017, 07:17 PM
Okc is LAST in 3 point shooting. LAST. You can replace Westbrook with anyone and you will not get any better. James game revolves around shooters. Leonard can't carry the whole offensive load. Harden would have no shooters to dish to and have both of his bigs in the paint. All 3 guys have excellent shooting surrounding them. Westbrook is the only player who has zero shooting surrounding him. You remove Westbrook and Okc has the worst record in the league. Adams is a great player but not a scoring big. Everyone else ok Okc is not very good. No Westbrook is basically Brooklyn part 2.

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 08:52 PM
I think if you replace Harden with a healthy Lin you still have a 500 team. If you replace Westy with Williams OKC wins 6 games.

Totally disagree with that. The Nets have won 12 gamest this season with only one player on their roster with more than 3 total WS. That Thunder team with Williams would have four such players. Williams, Oladipo, Kanter and Adams is a good enough core to win 20-25 games.

Edit: Also, there isn't a chance in hell that team wins 41 games with Lin instead of Harden. You can't just replace a guy scoring a hyper-efficient 29 points per night. That team with Lin wins 30-35 games at most, and that's being generous.

Shammyguy3
03-14-2017, 09:04 PM
Okc is LAST in 3 point shooting. LAST. You can replace Westbrook with anyone and you will not get any better. James game revolves around shooters. Leonard can't carry the whole offensive load. Harden would have no shooters to dish to and have both of his bigs in the paint. All 3 guys have excellent shooting surrounding them. Westbrook is the only player who has zero shooting surrounding him. You remove Westbrook and Okc has the worst record in the league. Adams is a great player but not a scoring big. Everyone else ok Okc is not very good. No Westbrook is basically Brooklyn part 2.

Harden's overall efficiency would actually make OKC better. He's a better perimeter shooter. I think If you replace Westbrook with Harden, OKC is a smidge better. If you replace Harden with Westbrook, I think HOU is about the same

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 09:10 PM
Harden's overall efficiency would actually make OKC better. He's a better perimeter shooter. I think If you replace Westbrook with Harden, OKC is a smidge better. If you replace Harden with Westbrook, I think HOU is about the same

Nah. Westbrook wouldn't be a great fit in D'Antoni's system. He's not the shooter or pick and roll creator that Harden is. I think Westbrook replacing Harden would probably put Houston in about the same position seeding-wise as OKC is in right now.

FlashBolt
03-14-2017, 09:26 PM
Nah. Westbrook wouldn't be a great fit in D'Antoni's system. He's not the shooter or pick and roll creator that Harden is. I think Westbrook replacing Harden would probably put Houston in about the same position seeding-wise as OKC is in right now.

LMAO, this is so stupid.

Shammyguy3
03-14-2017, 09:35 PM
Nah. Westbrook wouldn't be a great fit in D'Antoni's system. He's not the shooter or pick and roll creator that Harden is. I think Westbrook replacing Harden would probably put Houston in about the same position seeding-wise as OKC is in right now.

You watch the Rockets, I don't. But just because Westbrook isn't a great shooter doesn't mean that D'Antoni wouldn't be able to use him. He may not be as effective as Harden, but overall I think the Rockets still remain the 3 seed

FlashBolt
03-14-2017, 09:37 PM
You watch the Rockets, I don't. But just because Westbrook isn't a great shooter doesn't mean that D'Antoni wouldn't be able to use him. He may not be as effective as Harden, but overall I think the Rockets still remain the 3 seed

The best players are those who can create for others. Westbrook is CREATING for others and none of them can score without him. Just look at the Rockets roster and then tell me Westbrook wouldn't replicate that same performance. Look at Harden and then tell me he would take this OKC team to where they are..

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 11:02 PM
LMAO, this is so stupid.
Ok. Don't just respond with a childish "this is stupid." If you have an opinion, back it up with some actual facts and points.

mightybosstone
03-14-2017, 11:05 PM
The best players are those who can create for others. Westbrook is CREATING for others and none of them can score without him. Just look at the Rockets roster and then tell me Westbrook wouldn't replicate that same performance. Look at Harden and then tell me he would take this OKC team to where they are..

Creating for others and creating for others within a particular offense are two completely different things. Nobody is saying that Westy doesn't distribute the ball well. But Harden is one of the 2-3 best pick and roll creators in the league. That aspect of his game is simply better than Westbrook, which is why he's a better fit for D'Antoni's offense. Not exactly rocket science...

nastynice
03-14-2017, 11:50 PM
I'm rolling with harden. I'm just falling in love with his game. That crossover + that first step = :drool:

Id love to see lebron guard harden. I'm not sure he can

Bostonjorge
03-15-2017, 02:55 AM
It's looking like KD is the MVP. He is more valuable to his team then anyone else.

Saddletramp
03-15-2017, 03:50 AM
^^^^I hate to agree with this ****ing guy but I think I might have to agree with this ****ing guy.


Missing these games might actually help his cause.

mightybosstone
03-15-2017, 09:20 AM
^^^^I hate to agree with this ****ing guy but I think I might have to agree with this ****ing guy.


Missing these games might actually help his cause.

You could make a case for it, but I think he'll miss too much time to be a serious contender. How many MVPs in league history have missed more than 20 games?

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 09:45 AM
if westbrook wins MVP not only will it be the biggest travesty in MVP voting in my lifetime it will literally set the game back to the Iverson era. it would be awful.

kdspurman
03-15-2017, 10:42 AM
Good read.. So many things to factor in for the voters. Well, some... I've seen a couple say if WB averages a triple double, he gets their vote, no questions asked.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-mvp-race-17-questions-to-help-settle-westbrook-harden-lebron-kawhi-debate/

sens#11fan
03-15-2017, 11:12 AM
Saw the BKN vs OKC highlights and Westbrook got MVP chants during the game and one minute from the start. Mind you, this was at Brooklyn which is quite a long trip from Oklahoma.

nastynice
03-15-2017, 11:28 AM
Saw the BKN vs OKC highlights and Westbrook got MVP chants during the game and one minute from the start. Mind you, this was at Brooklyn which is quite a long trip from Oklahoma.

It's harden or Westbrook, everyone saying lebron or kawhi just tryina go against the grain. I know none of these mofos actually mean it in their heart

kdspurman
03-15-2017, 11:53 AM
It's harden or Westbrook, everyone saying lebron or kawhi just tryina go against the grain. I know none of these mofos actually mean it in their heart

Well what some of us think doesn't matter tbh. I've seen voters discussing it who think much differently than you on this

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 11:58 AM
Good read.. So many things to factor in for the voters. Well, some... I've seen a couple say if WB averages a triple double, he gets their vote, no questions asked.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-mvp-race-17-questions-to-help-settle-westbrook-harden-lebron-kawhi-debate/

which should disqualify them as voters on the spot.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 12:14 PM
just read an article and came across this. i can't remember if i already knew this or not but it goes to show why the whole triple double thing and rebounding thing for Westbrook should be discounted to some degree as an accomplishment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcSKennflks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCyy8wcuZE4

this is brilliant coaching on Donovans part. but Westbrook is gifted rebounds on the defensive glass on free-throws, and while it could be a tactic to boost his rebounding numbers i believe it is actually a deliberate move to allow the thunder to attack faster in transition.

aman_13
03-15-2017, 12:18 PM
Westbrook winning MVP shouldn't be based on averaging a triple double. That's ridiculous.

mightybosstone
03-15-2017, 12:20 PM
if westbrook wins MVP not only will it be the biggest travesty in MVP voting in my lifetime it will literally set the game back to the Iverson era. it would be awful.

Mmm... I dunno man. That's a bit of a stretch. There have been some truly atrocious MVP winners over the last 20-25 years. And at least Westbrook is a legitimate top 4-5 candidate, and there's a legitimate case to be made for the historic numbers he's putting up (despite how inefficient they may be). I think he's more deserving this season than Rose was when he won the award over Lebron. Although, to be fair, at least Rose had the team success in his favor...

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 12:20 PM
^ it's hard to believe that something so obvious needs to be stated - yet clearly there are still some people who think in this way.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 12:26 PM
Mmm... I dunno man. That's a bit of a stretch. There have been some truly atrocious MVP winners over the last 20-25 years. And at least Westbrook is a legitimate top 4-5 candidate, and there's a legitimate case to be made for the historic numbers he's putting up (despite how inefficient they may be). I think he's more deserving this season than Rose was when he won the award over Lebron. Although, to be fair, at least Rose had the team success in his favor...

good point, the rose one was a joke too. at the same time, i am much more forgiving given his team won 62 freaking games. it's like, i can look at the stats for Rose and say, they aren't the top of the class but maybe i'm missing something here, the team won 62 freaking games. with westbrook its just raw numbers boosted hugely by ridonkulous usage.

mightybosstone
03-15-2017, 12:42 PM
good point, the rose one was a joke too. at the same time, i am much more forgiving given his team won 62 freaking games. it's like, i can look at the stats for Rose and say, they aren't the top of the class but maybe i'm missing something here, the team won 62 freaking games. with westbrook its just raw numbers boosted hugely by ridonkulous usage.

Narrative plays far too significant a role in the MVP conversation. That was the case with the year Rose won it over Lebron, and that's absolutely the case this season with Westbrook. People love the story of Westy carrying the team on his back to the playoffs with historic numbers after he was "betrayed" by Durant. While it's a nice story, the reality doesn't really live up to the legend in this case when you take a hard look at the numbers.

It's weird, because I rarely feel like narrative plays a role in the MVP voting in MLB or NFL. But I always feels like it does in the NBA. Maybe it's because every year you could make a case for 4-5 guys in the NBA, and there isn't always a clear favorite? But I look at the NFL last season, and clearly Rodgers, Brady and Elliott had the stronger stories and numbers at least close to what Ryan put up. Yet Ryan still won the award, and the voting wasn't all that close.

valade16
03-15-2017, 02:23 PM
Mmm... I dunno man. That's a bit of a stretch. There have been some truly atrocious MVP winners over the last 20-25 years. And at least Westbrook is a legitimate top 4-5 candidate, and there's a legitimate case to be made for the historic numbers he's putting up (despite how inefficient they may be). I think he's more deserving this season than Rose was when he won the award over Lebron. Although, to be fair, at least Rose had the team success in his favor...


good point, the rose one was a joke too. at the same time, i am much more forgiving given his team won 62 freaking games. it's like, i can look at the stats for Rose and say, they aren't the top of the class but maybe i'm missing something here, the team won 62 freaking games. with westbrook its just raw numbers boosted hugely by ridonkulous usage.

Why do people keep saying this? His scoring efficiency is barely below league average, and as I already showed on here, actually in line with other players who had massive usage rates.


he is certainly not an inefficient player and his stats are far more than raw numbers.

His PER is 30.3, his BPM is 14.7 which would be the highest ever, his VORP is 9.9, best in the league by 1.4. His on/off number is +15.1 and as I already pointed out on this forum, when he is on the floor his teammates TS% gets massively better (he has a better net effect on his team's TS% when he's on the floor than LeBron).

I mean, if you're saying he's only a product of raw numbers, then what numbers is he not good at because all the advanced numbers say he is playing extremely well too...

valade16
03-15-2017, 02:26 PM
just read an article and came across this. i can't remember if i already knew this or not but it goes to show why the whole triple double thing and rebounding thing for Westbrook should be discounted to some degree as an accomplishment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcSKennflks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCyy8wcuZE4

this is brilliant coaching on Donovans part. but Westbrook is gifted rebounds on the defensive glass on free-throws, and while it could be a tactic to boost his rebounding numbers i believe it is actually a deliberate move to allow the thunder to attack faster in transition.

If it helps the team and makes them a better basketball team, how can you possibly punish Westbrook for doing it?

aman_13
03-15-2017, 02:34 PM
Why do people keep saying this? His scoring efficiency is barely below league average, and as I already showed on here, actually in line with other players who had massive usage rates.


he is certainly not an inefficient player and his stats are far more than raw numbers.

His PER is 30.3, his BPM is 14.7 which would be the highest ever, his VORP is 9.9, best in the league by 1.4. His on/off number is +15.1 and as I already pointed out on this forum, when he is on the floor his teammates TS% gets massively better (he has a better net effect on his team's TS% when he's on the floor than LeBron).

I mean, if you're saying he's only a product of raw numbers, then what numbers is he not good at because all the advanced numbers say he is playing extremely well too...

All those number correlate with high usage so all you are doing is rewarding him because he has to do so much. He's having a great yr but his scoring effeciency is still subpar when comparing to the other candidates.

valade16
03-15-2017, 02:39 PM
All those number correlate with high usage so all you are doing is rewarding him because he has to do so much. He's having a great yr but his scoring efficiency is still subpar when comparing to the other candidates.

... isn't that what you should be doing for a Most Valuable Player?

In essence, you're saying "All you're doing is demonstrating he's the most valuable player for a tea!" As if that is somehow a knock against him lol.

aman_13
03-15-2017, 03:02 PM
... isn't that what you should be doing for a Most Valuable Player?

In essence, you're saying "All you're doing is demonstrating he's the most valuable player for a tea!" As if that is somehow a knock against him lol.

I figured that response because I was to lazy to address it, as i did it earlier in this thread.

It's not a knock against him, but unfair to the other candidates. Just because LeBron, Harden and Kawhi play in different systems and don't have to produce like Westbrook, doesn't mean they aren't as valuable to their team. In the case of Harden and LeBron, their teams would be significantly worst if they were to be injured. Houston might not be a playoff team.

valade16
03-15-2017, 03:20 PM
I figured that response because I was to lazy to address it, as i did it earlier in this thread.

It's not a knock against him, but unfair to the other candidates. Just because LeBron, Harden and Kawhi play in different systems and don't have to produce like Westbrook, doesn't mean they aren't as valuable to their team. In the case of Harden and LeBron, their teams would be significantly worst if they were to be injured. Houston might not be a playoff team.

And using that logic no team who is in the playoffs would drop as badly as if the Thunder lost Westbrook. On/off numbers show they are an offensive train wreck when he is not on the floor.

I mean, we wouldn't do this in any other year, when it was LeBron carrying the Cavs in 07 nobody was saying "LeBron shouldn't get a boost for carrying such a bad roster" because we realized a player playing extremely well while carrying his team is exactly what we want from an MVP candidate.

It's unfair to other candidates that sometimes other players are put in a position to win an MVP. That's the NBA, we judge them based on what they have done. I really think a lot of this hate against Westbrook is because he's Westy and he already has a reputation.

Nobody would be dismissing this performance if it were LeBron. Heck, LeBron had a VERY similar Finals when he lost to the Warriors the first time, he was very inefficient but had a massive usage and put up monster raw stats because his team was so bad, and everyone praised him for it and many said he should have been MVP even though he lost.

If you're going to make excuses for Bron then, why not Westy now? Heck, Westy is more efficient than Bron was then and he's done it for a whole season, not just 6 games.

mightybosstone
03-15-2017, 03:46 PM
Why do people keep saying this? His scoring efficiency is barely below league average, and as I already showed on here, actually in line with other players who had massive usage rates.


he is certainly not an inefficient player and his stats are far more than raw numbers.

His PER is 30.3, his BPM is 14.7 which would be the highest ever, his VORP is 9.9, best in the league by 1.4. His on/off number is +15.1 and as I already pointed out on this forum, when he is on the floor his teammates TS% gets massively better (he has a better net effect on his team's TS% when he's on the floor than LeBron).

I mean, if you're saying he's only a product of raw numbers, then what numbers is he not good at because all the advanced numbers say he is playing extremely well too...

I think we have a warped opinion of what MVP candidates' numbers should be because we've been spoiled the last few years by some just insanely ridiculous MVP seasons. Guys like Durant, Curry, Harden, James and Kawhi score at such insanely efficient levels and post such ridiculous numbers across the board that any dip in particular advanced statistics seems like some major red flag, when it really shouldn't be.

Like with Westbrook, his scoring efficiency isn't bad. It's average to maybe even slightly above average for a point guard. But it just seems so pedestrian when you compare it to those other guys. To a lesser extent, his WS numbers (12th in WS/48) aren't quite at the level of of Harden, Durant or Kawhi either.

But in a season where we have so many quality MVP candidates, maybe voters should be nitpicking a little more than usual? Like if you have four really quality MVP candidates on roughly the same level as players (which I would pretty much say about these four guys), then maybe voters ought to take a closer look at everything, including team success, scoring efficiency, overall productivity and defense rather than just going with a particular candidate based on the popular narrative or the guy with the best base numbers.

aman_13
03-15-2017, 03:51 PM
And using that logic no team who is in the playoffs would drop as badly as if the Thunder lost Westbrook. On/off numbers show they are an offensive train wreck when he is not on the floor.

I mean, we wouldn't do this in any other year, when it was LeBron carrying the Cavs in 07 nobody was saying "LeBron shouldn't get a boost for carrying such a bad roster" because we realized a player playing extremely well while carrying his team is exactly what we want from an MVP candidate.

It's unfair to other candidates that sometimes other players are put in a position to win an MVP. That's the NBA, we judge them based on what they have done. I really think a lot of this hate against Westbrook is because he's Westy and he already has a reputation.

Nobody would be dismissing this performance if it were LeBron. Heck, LeBron had a VERY similar Finals when he lost to the Warriors the first time, he was very inefficient but had a massive usage and put up monster raw stats because his team was so bad, and everyone praised him for it and many said he should have been MVP even though he lost.

If you're going to make excuses for Bron then, why not Westy now? Heck, Westy is more efficient than Bron was then and he's done it for a whole season, not just 6 games.

Yeah the level of drop off would be dramatic but who cares how much they drop off if they are both non playoff teams.

I'm not dismissing Westbrook's numbers. It's about evening the playing field.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 04:28 PM
If it helps the team and makes them a better basketball team, how can you possibly punish Westbrook for doing it?

in what way would i be punishing him exactly?

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 04:42 PM
All those number correlate with high usage so all you are doing is rewarding him because he has to do so much. He's having a great yr but his scoring effeciency is still subpar when comparing to the other candidates.

i don't agree with this. if i truly believed he had to take on the load he does than i wouldn't hold it against him.

ewing
03-15-2017, 05:03 PM
i don't agree with this. if i truly believed he had to take on the load he does than i wouldn't hold it against him.


sure

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 05:06 PM
sure

bugger off man, we both know there is no basketball player who has ever lived who has "had" to play the way this way. we hear this argument/excuse for every selfish baller who has ever lived. i heard it for kobe. i heard it for melo. i heard it for westbrook. i heard it for iverson. it's tired and horseshit.

valade16
03-15-2017, 05:49 PM
bugger off man, we both know there is no basketball player who has ever lived who has "had" to play the way this way. we hear this argument/excuse for every selfish baller who has ever lived. i heard it for kobe. i heard it for melo. i heard it for westbrook. i heard it for iverson. it's tired and horseshit.

Does he have to have this exact load or play this exact way? No, he doesn't. No player has to play the way they play. But it's about the results when they do play, however they play.

Virtually any measurement or statistic you will find will show he is having a positive impact on his team.

His individual BPM/VORP have him at all-time highs for any player.
The On/Off numbers for him show a massive difference when he's on the floor.
The team on/off numbers show a massive difference when Westbrook is on the floor vs when he's not.
Other player's TS% show a massive difference when he's on the floor vs when he's not.


So what is your big complaint? He's selfish? Really, your complaint is that even though by any measure he is having a profoundly positive impact on his team, you don't think he has to play this way, despite all the numbers showing that the Thunder are a train-wreck when he's on the bench or the ball is not in his hands?

I mean, at a certain point your prejudices shouldn't interfere with your ability to objectively analyze. Do you think the Thunder would improve, get worse, or stay the same if his Usage and "seflishness" dropped to a more reasonable level?

aman_13
03-15-2017, 06:16 PM
i don't agree with this. if i truly believed he had to take on the load he does than i wouldn't hold it against him.

I don't hold it against him tho.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2017, 07:48 PM
Does he have to have this exact load or play this exact way? No, he doesn't. No player has to play the way they play. But it's about the results when they do play, however they play.

Virtually any measurement or statistic you will find will show he is having a positive impact on his team.

His individual BPM/VORP have him at all-time highs for any player.
The On/Off numbers for him show a massive difference when he's on the floor.
The team on/off numbers show a massive difference when Westbrook is on the floor vs when he's not.
Other player's TS% show a massive difference when he's on the floor vs when he's not.


So what is your big complaint? He's selfish? Really, your complaint is that even though by any measure he is having a profoundly positive impact on his team, you don't think he has to play this way, despite all the numbers showing that the Thunder are a train-wreck when he's on the bench or the ball is not in his hands?

I mean, at a certain point your prejudices shouldn't interfere with your ability to objectively analyze. Do you think the Thunder would improve, get worse, or stay the same if his Usage and "seflishness" dropped to a more reasonable level?

meh, i'm not sure it's really that strong an argument to say that the team is much worse when he's off. that's not exactly unexpected when you are dominating the ball in a way that has never before been seen. it's the basketball version of codependency

FlashBolt
03-15-2017, 08:48 PM
Ok. Don't just respond with a childish "this is stupid." If you have an opinion, back it up with some actual facts and points.

One might say you're the one being a child by claiming Rockets would be in the same spot as OKC with Westbrook instead of Harden. That's beyond belief.

mightybosstone
03-15-2017, 10:00 PM
One might say you're the one being a child by claiming Rockets would be in the same spot as OKC with Westbrook instead of Harden. That's beyond belief.

Westbrook doesn't fit this offense as well as Harden does. Maybe that was a bit of an exaggeration. But you're talking about replacing a guy who's been the star of this franchise for the better part of five years, whose offense was built specifically around his skillset and whose teammates know him and have played with him for some time. You replace Harden with anybody, Westbrook included, and that roster is going to take a few steps back. That's just common sense.

ewing
03-15-2017, 11:17 PM
meh, i'm not sure it's really that strong an argument to say that the team is much worse when he's off. that's not exactly unexpected when you are dominating the ball in a way that has never before been seen. it's the basketball version of codependency

what do you see that squad growing into if not influenced by Westbrook. I like Victor but he isn't making plays for everyone. I like Adams but he is garbage man that is only helped by Westy creating chaos. I am not a Kanter fan but will admit that he can score. He doesn't need westbrook to do that but i think he best suited as your first big off the bench. I love Sabonis but he is rook with a long way to go. When he had KD there was reason to question his decision making, right now he makes that team good. They would suck without him and they would suck if he replaced by just about anyone in the league. Westy is unique and that uniqueness is what makes this team decent.

Shammyguy3
03-15-2017, 11:24 PM
if westbrook wins MVP not only will it be the biggest travesty in MVP voting in my lifetime it will literally set the game back to the Iverson era. it would be awful.

Iverson never sniffed anything like this season Westbrook is having. Heck, idk if Westbrook doesn't already have 6 better seasons than Iverson's best

ewing
03-16-2017, 12:09 AM
Westy is an interesting player. His flaws and his gifts go hand and hand to an extent. I am glad he is on a team that showcases his talents. I think the style and culture in OKC is largely a creation of his efforts. It's a shame KD ran from the challenge. It would have been easier to do it with harden and KD but it have been fun with those two and bunch hard nosed dudes thriving on the chaos


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Bostonjorge
03-16-2017, 12:23 AM
Westy is an interesting player. His flaws and his gifts go hand and hand to an extent. I am glad he is on a team that showcases his talents. I think the style and culture in OKC is largely a creation of his efforts. It's a shame KD ran from the challenge. It would have been easier to do it with harden and KD but it have been fun with those two and bunch hard nosed dudes thriving on the chaos


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I know this sounds funny. If you add Durant to "Westbrook's Okc team" then they win the title. Westbrook just needs a side kick not a butting star.

mightybosstone
03-16-2017, 08:39 AM
I know this sounds funny. If you add Durant to "Westbrook's Okc team" then they win the title. Westbrook just needs a side kick not a butting star.
I'll agree to disagree on both of these points. Durant is the better basketball player than Westbrook. And that OKC team had multiple chances to win a title and failed to do so.

Htownballa1622
03-16-2017, 12:07 PM
I read online this morning that the Rockets are tied for the most efficient offense ever with 86-87 Lakers.

Guess who leads that team? :whistle:

ewing
03-16-2017, 12:21 PM
I read online this morning that the Rockets are tied for the most efficient offense ever with 86-87 Lakers.

Guess who leads that team? :whistle:

Mike Dantoni?


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ewing
03-16-2017, 12:40 PM
I know this sounds funny. If you add Durant to "Westbrook's Okc team" then they win the title. Westbrook just needs a side kick not a butting star.

I think the best thing that happened to OKC is Billy Donovan. He came in and said were not going to out execute everyone but we are going to out scrap everyone. The worst thing to happen was KD not buying in.


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mightybosstone
03-16-2017, 12:41 PM
Mike Dantoni?


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D'Antoni also coached the Nuggets in 98-99 (14-36 record), the Knicks from 08-09 to 11-12 (121-167) and the Lakers from 12-13 to 13-14 (67-87). To act as if he's the main reason for the Rockets success and not Harden— whose teams have been excellent offensively since he came to Houston five years ago—is pretty disingenuous.

ewing
03-16-2017, 12:42 PM
I'll agree to disagree on both of these points. Durant is the better basketball player than Westbrook. And that OKC team had multiple chances to win a title and failed to do so.

They both great players. Durant is more polished and more unstoppable as a scorer. I think this became Rusty's team last year and if he stayed it was going to be Rusty's team. There identify comes from that dude


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mightybosstone
03-16-2017, 12:51 PM
They both great players. Durant is more polished and more unstoppable as a scorer. I think this became Rusty's team last year and if he stayed it was going to be Rusty's team. There identify comes from that dude


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What evidence do you have that it "become Westbrook's team" last season? Because Durant was still the better player. Also, why do I really care "whose team" it is? That point makes no sense to me, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

ewing
03-16-2017, 01:27 PM
What evidence do you have that it "become Westbrook's team" last season? Because Durant was still the better player. Also, why do I really care "whose team" it is? That point makes no sense to me, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

It really isn't a point. I just think the team took on Westy's identity with Donovan. He became the guy that makes them go.


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ewing
03-16-2017, 01:30 PM
D'Antoni also coached the Nuggets in 98-99 (14-36 record), the Knicks from 08-09 to 11-12 (121-167) and the Lakers from 12-13 to 13-14 (67-87). To act as if he's the main reason for the Rockets success and not Harden— whose teams have been excellent offensively since he came to Houston five years ago—is pretty disingenuous.

It was a joking post with a little truth to it. Harden is a good pick. I would have given it to him 2 years ago. This year I wouldn't but he still has a legit case


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valade16
03-16-2017, 02:36 PM
D'Antoni also coached the Nuggets in 98-99 (14-36 record), the Knicks from 08-09 to 11-12 (121-167) and the Lakers from 12-13 to 13-14 (67-87). To act as if he's the main reason for the Rockets success and not Harden— whose teams have been excellent offensively since he came to Houston five years ago—is pretty disingenuous.

... Couldn't it be both?

The Rockets the previous 5 seasons were:
108.3
107.0
111.0
109.7

D'Antoni's Ortg for his teams was:
Denver: 103.1
Phoenix: 101.4
Phoenix: 114.5
Phoenix: 111.5
Phoenix: 113.9
Phoenix: 113.3
New York: 108.1
New York: 107.6
New York: 110.9
New York: 104.4
Lakers: 107.8
Lakers: 104.2

Looks like outside the very beginning and very end of his career, D'Antoni's offenses were fairly elite. I think without each other the Rockets aren't the most efficient offense.

Chronz
03-16-2017, 03:07 PM
I dont see how its not Kawhi or LeBron tbh. I think Harden's team is underrated as **** and I feel like RWB is getting most of his pub off arbitrary accomplishments that hes purposely allowed to rack up, like I dont think his rebounding improves the team as much as his totals would normally indicate.

ewing
03-16-2017, 03:10 PM
I dont see how its not Kawhi or LeBron tbh. I think Harden's team is underrated as **** and I feel like RWB is getting most of his pub off arbitrary accomplishments that hes purposely allowed to rack up, like I dont think his rebounding improves the team as much as his totals would normally indicate.

Yeah who wants that guy ripping down a board and starting immediate transition


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mightybosstone
03-16-2017, 03:21 PM
... Couldn't it be both?

The Rockets the previous 5 seasons were:
108.3
107.0
111.0
109.7

D'Antoni's Ortg for his teams was:
Denver: 103.1
Phoenix: 101.4
Phoenix: 114.5
Phoenix: 111.5
Phoenix: 113.9
Phoenix: 113.3
New York: 108.1
New York: 107.6
New York: 110.9
New York: 104.4
Lakers: 107.8
Lakers: 104.2

Looks like outside the very beginning and very end of his career, D'Antoni's offenses were fairly elite. I think without each other the Rockets aren't the most efficient offense.

I agree that it's both. But if you replaced Harden with a guy who was incapable of running D'Antoni's offense, I don't think they'd be a very good basketball team, period, whereas we've seen Harden lead great offenses with poor coaching and no real offensive system. The other key piece to the conversation is Morey's part in the team's success. He finally went out and got the team some elite shooters to surround Harden with. If Harden was running this team with inferior shooters to Anderson and Gordon, this team wouldn't be nearly as effective.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2017, 03:26 PM
Iverson never sniffed anything like this season Westbrook is having. Heck, idk if Westbrook doesn't already have 6 better seasons than Iverson's best

granted, i do believe westbrook is a better version, for sure. i don't deny that whatsoever.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2017, 03:30 PM
I think the best thing that happened to OKC is Billy Donovan. He came in and said were not going to out execute everyone but we are going to out scrap everyone. The worst thing to happen was KD not buying in.


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i agree with you. i think he will bring a lot of outside the box ideas to coaching, in fact i think this season he has clearly done so with westbrook to great effect.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2017, 03:32 PM
It really isn't a point. I just think the team took on Westy's identity with Donovan. He became the guy that makes them go.


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i think you are just retro-fitting that opinion based on the fact that durant took the followers rather than the leaders route during free agency. did you really think that last year?

Jamiecballer
03-16-2017, 03:35 PM
I dont see how its not Kawhi or LeBron tbh. I think Harden's team is underrated as **** and I feel like RWB is getting most of his pub off arbitrary accomplishments that hes purposely allowed to rack up, like I dont think his rebounding improves the team as much as his totals would normally indicate.

we are on the exact same page chronz. 100%. although i suppose i differ a bit in thinking that Harden is fairly deserving as well, although i think he's getting a boost from the d'antoni effect.

ewing
03-16-2017, 03:59 PM
i think you are just retro-fitting that opinion based on the fact that durant took the followers rather than the leaders route during free agency. did you really think that last year?

Yeah, they played a very hectic style that I think was lead by Westbrook


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ewing
03-16-2017, 04:02 PM
i agree with you. i think he will bring a lot of outside the box ideas to coaching, in fact i think this season he has clearly done so with westbrook to great effect.

I actually liked Scottie Brooks in OKC too but I don't think he got the same buy in. I know a lot people didn't like him and I didn't see a ton of games. I think he is the one guy that tried to get Durant to use his length in the high post a la Dirk but KD just doesn't seem very receptive to that


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Chronz
03-16-2017, 04:44 PM
Yeah who wants that guy ripping down a board and starting immediate transition


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Yeah, whoever heard of the ball moving faster than a player can run.

Chronz
03-16-2017, 04:46 PM
we are on the exact same page chronz. 100%. although i suppose i differ a bit in thinking that Harden is fairly deserving as well, although i think he's getting a boost from the d'antoni effect.
This isn't a D-Rose/AI scenario where them winning undermines the award. Everyone mentioned is deserving, haven't felt so conflicted in many years but when you are picking nits, you have to sound abit blasphemous.

Chronz
03-16-2017, 04:50 PM
Yeah, they played a very hectic style that I think was lead by Westbrook


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But as you've stated before, that style could undermine the integrity of the team. His style was questionable with Kevin Durant on board, but now that his team is less potent, his style is suddenly more valuable. I dont like the idea of players getting free roam on teams with less at stake getting more credit than guys who are similarly dominant yet competing for teams with more to gain. Obviously theres a line we have to draw but I think its important to note the last time someone averaged a triple double, both he and BY FAR the games best scorer didn't win, it was the guy with a similar impact on a significantly better team. That said, Im picking nits so feel free to **** on my take.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2017, 04:51 PM
This isn't a D-Rose/AI scenario where them winning undermines the award. Everyone mentioned is deserving, haven't felt so conflicted in many years but when you are picking nits, you have to sound abit blasphemous.

yeah, i don't see a case for westbrook so i guess we will have to disagree there.

valade16
03-16-2017, 05:06 PM
I dont see how its not Kawhi or LeBron tbh. I think Harden's team is underrated as **** and I feel like RWB is getting most of his pub off arbitrary accomplishments that hes purposely allowed to rack up, like I dont think his rebounding improves the team as much as his totals would normally indicate.

I have LeBron 4th behind Harden, Westy and Kawhi. Bron is just not as elite numbers wise as his prime (and a 1/2 step below the other contenders this season) and Cleveland is in a dogfight with Boston for the #1 seed in the East. They should be running away with that conference.

I'd say Harden at this point (though as you said, the D'Antoni effect definitely helps his candidacy) followed by Kawhi or Westy.

Chronz
03-16-2017, 05:11 PM
yeah, i don't see a case for westbrook so i guess we will have to disagree there.

Its the value over the replacement player. The sheer intensity/workload he carries game to game is what makes guys like DeRozen gush over him. You can argue hes not as good, but not as valuable to his team? Thats hard, think of it this way. Statistically speaking, KD is basically LeBron. We've seen what losing LeBron has done to franchises, yet here is OKC in the playoff mix. It HAS to say something about RWB. Value is subjective but to lose a player of KD's caliber and still stay relevant usually boosts the incumbent stars value. It did so with Pippen I know that and he was basically the same guy just expanding his range to account for the defensive attention.

RWB has ramped up the intensity and level of play, there is zero rest for this guy. He EASILY has the worst spacing of any MVP contender, Kawhi is similar in that regard but still lags behind.

ewing
03-16-2017, 05:18 PM
Yeah, whoever heard of the ball moving faster than a player can run.

You need an up floor outlet pass for that. It's not always there and certainly won't always get it to westy.


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ewing
03-16-2017, 05:31 PM
But as you've stated before, that style could undermine the integrity of the team. His style was questionable with Kevin Durant on board, but now that his team is less potent, his style is suddenly more valuable. I dont like the idea of players getting free roam on teams with less at stake getting more credit than guys who are similarly dominant yet competing for teams with more to gain. Obviously theres a line we have to draw but I think its important to note the last time someone averaged a triple double, both he and BY FAR the games best scorer didn't win, it was the guy with a similar impact on a significantly better team. That said, Im picking nits so feel free to **** on my take.

I don't think the style was questionable with Durant on board. A hectic style leads to scrambles and open Js. It also means you need a safety valve when the game isn't ugly which is what KD could totally excel as, especially if he embrassed the high post! I'd love to see this team with KD. Victor and Sabonis were upgrades and would take nothing away from KD. They need a scorer that isn't a scraper. I do agree with the rest of your post.


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flea
03-16-2017, 05:59 PM
Westbrook will always be one of the NBA tragedies to me. He's improved a lot but his shot selection is still pretty bad for a star. If he ever understood what he could and couldn't do he could have been one of the greatest guards ever. Instead I think it will remain an open question whether he was even as good as Gary Payton.

ewing
03-16-2017, 06:06 PM
Westbrook will always be one of the NBA tragedies to me. He's improved a lot but his shot selection is still pretty bad for a star. If he ever understood what he could and couldn't do he could have been one of the greatest guards ever. Instead I think it will remain an open question whether he was even as good as Gary Payton.

Or if he ever became a legit jump shooter. It's not just shot selection. He's not a great shooter

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mightybosstone
03-16-2017, 07:58 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/03/16/with-a-month-left-in-the-season-this-poll-shows-a-clear-favorite-for-nba-mvp/?utm_term=.8f4a69033e5b

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/03/13/usa-today-survey-nba-mvp-race-lebron-james-russell-westbrook-james-harden-kawhi-leonard/99143284/

I'm actually a little surprised (and obviously thrilled) by this, but apparently both the media and NBA executives are picking Harden to win the award with a few weeks left in the season. The NBA executives vote doesn't surprise me, but the media one does. I thought for sure they'd be all over Westbrook's historic triple-double season, but maybe they're putting more stock in team success than I had anticipated.

Bruno
03-17-2017, 06:33 PM
Westbrook is getting dumped on over on reddit because of his TS%. not saying he should win MVP, but his TS% this season is one of the best of his career, and higher than what he averaged in his final four seasons next to Durant.

Bruno
03-17-2017, 06:40 PM
The main reason why Harden has an argument over Westbook is because of the eight game difference in the standings. I do wonder what kind of regular season record Westbrook could chase if his roster was optimized around his skill set, like Harden has in Houston. Give Westbrook two bigs who can rebound (one who can spread to 18 at least), and two wings who can shoot and play excellent defense- that'd be interesting- a Danny Green, Otto Porter or a KCP- next to Adams and one floor spreading guy who can rebound a bit. OKC doesn't have any of this outside of an undersized Oladipo who suddenly started killing it from 3 this year. Outside of Adams and Oladipo (if he can keep this shooting up past this season) this team doesn't really fit his skill set. That caps them as a team that will struggle to ever win 50, simply based off build. not talent- build.

Bruno
03-17-2017, 06:44 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/03/16/with-a-month-left-in-the-season-this-poll-shows-a-clear-favorite-for-nba-mvp/?utm_term=.8f4a69033e5b

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/03/13/usa-today-survey-nba-mvp-race-lebron-james-russell-westbrook-james-harden-kawhi-leonard/99143284/

I'm actually a little surprised (and obviously thrilled) by this, but apparently both the media and NBA executives are picking Harden to win the award with a few weeks left in the season. The NBA executives vote doesn't surprise me, but the media one does. I thought for sure they'd be all over Westbrook's historic triple-double season, but maybe they're putting more stock in team success than I had anticipated.
Harden wins it if voting ended today. But if the Spurs get the #1 Leonard could make a late season push.

More-Than-Most
03-17-2017, 07:42 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?920056-INSIDE-Value-Shares-scores-one-of-the-tightest-MVP-races-in-recent-times

there is no argument sorry... its lebron.

HandsOnTheWheel
03-21-2017, 01:04 AM
I'm probably leaning Harden at this point.

Scoots
03-21-2017, 08:34 AM
But as you've stated before, that style could undermine the integrity of the team. His style was questionable with Kevin Durant on board, but now that his team is less potent, his style is suddenly more valuable. I dont like the idea of players getting free roam on teams with less at stake getting more credit than guys who are similarly dominant yet competing for teams with more to gain. Obviously theres a line we have to draw but I think its important to note the last time someone averaged a triple double, both he and BY FAR the games best scorer didn't win, it was the guy with a similar impact on a significantly better team. That said, Im picking nits so feel free to **** on my take.

I agree. What I find most telling is that while Harden's defensive effort has gone up this year along with his production, Westbrook's has gone down. Westbrook looks like he's saving energy on D more than I've ever seen before. They are both monsters in very different ways, but to me Harden is clearly better this year.

Still, I'll take Kawhi over everybody else.