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Meth
02-19-2017, 07:06 AM
Swap Iverson with Westbrook on that team. How far would the Sixers go? Would they beat the Lakers? Would they even make it to the NBA Finals?

More-Than-Most
02-19-2017, 07:20 AM
They still lose to the lakers... I am one nomatter how much i love iverson for being with the sixers I think he is hella overrated... I think with westy the team is still just as good potentially better but not good enough to beat the sixers.. Westy is by far a better player than iverson ever was.... Westy would have gotten more out of the supporting cast.... A better question... With westy instead of iverson the year Webber played in 79 games how good would we have been? I think Westy in his prime with Webber that year makes noise.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2017, 07:38 AM
They don't make it to the Lakers....Westbrook isn't as good as Iverson, and that team was built to have a supporting cast around Iverson not Westbrook.

Swapping players with different play styles on a team that had success won't work in general.

KingPosey
02-19-2017, 08:31 AM
God no they wouldn't beat the lakers. Yes they'd absolutely make the finals. All AI defenders always point to him dragging that team to the finals, but anything less would have been embarrassing. That eastern conference was disgustingly weak.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2017, 09:58 AM
God no they wouldn't beat the lakers. Yes they'd absolutely make the finals. All AI defenders always point to him dragging that team to the finals, but anything less would have been embarrassing. That eastern conference was disgustingly weak.

Iverson was the shooting guard not point guard, yes the ball was in his hands quite a bit but Eric Snow was the point guard. Westbrook, while he can certainly score, wouldn't work as well because that team was built solely to have guys with specific skills around Iverson doing the specific skill they do. There are few players you can replace Iverson with and have the team work, you also would have to replace him with a shooting guard as to not clutter the court. That is all I am saying.

LOb0
02-19-2017, 11:24 AM
They'd make the finals. WB >>> Iverson. That team got to the finals due to its defense not Iverson. Iverson was extremely overrated.

bootsy
02-19-2017, 12:41 PM
They'd make the finals. WB >>> Iverson. That team got to the finals due to its defense not Iverson. Iverson was extremely overrated.

LOL that you actually believe this nonsense. Get outta here.

bootsy
02-19-2017, 12:43 PM
God no they wouldn't beat the lakers. Yes they'd absolutely make the finals. All AI defenders always point to him dragging that team to the finals, but anything less would have been embarrassing. That eastern conference was disgustingly weak.

The East wasn't any weaker than it is right now. The Sixers beat the Raptors with Carter and Antonio Davis and the Bucks with Cassel, Robinson, and Allen. The non-Cavs contenders in the East right now don't have teams as good as those two teams in 2001.

KingPosey
02-19-2017, 01:29 PM
Iverson was the shooting guard not point guard, yes the ball was in his hands quite a bit but Eric Snow was the point guard. Westbrook, while he can certainly score, wouldn't work as well because that team was built solely to have guys with specific skills around Iverson doing the specific skill they do. There are few players you can replace Iverson with and have the team work, you also would have to replace him with a shooting guard as to not clutter the court. That is all I am saying.
He had the ball every single time on offense and had a huge usage Number. It doesn't matter what title you give him on offense AI was the ball handler, and he really doesn't do anything better than westy regardless so it all remains the same.

PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2017, 02:02 PM
He had the ball every single time on offense and had a huge usage Number. It doesn't matter what title you give him on offense AI was the ball handler, and he really doesn't do anything better than westy regardless so it all remains the same.

If you watched that team that year, and I saw pretty much every game, Iverson was the sg and Snow was a true PG for that team....if you don't have Iverson or an Iverson type of player at the SG position you don't have any offense even if it comes for you PG. That team, that year more than any other of Iverson's career was built for Iverson at SG.

If you don't have a true SG on that team it may not even make the playoffs. It was a team perfectly built with role players around Iverson.

Stats don't show Iverson's role in general and Snow took the ball in more times than not that particular year and playoff run. Did Iverson touch the ball regularly, off course he did, that is exactly how the team was built and coached.

A PG even a Westbrook type would not work at all from that team.

LOb0
02-19-2017, 02:26 PM
LOL that you actually believe this nonsense. Get outta here.

Only because its true. Team of defensive players built around one guy shooting in a weak east. The defense was the key to that team Iverson just got to jack shots up.

Why do you think he never had success after that? He was having his standard year on Philly, was traded to Denver, and they got worse. Billups was added and the same team went to the West finals. Iverson then refused to change his selfish game, and was out of the league a few years later.

Iverson was an overrated black hole, that gets all the credit for a finals team where he wasn't even the main reason they got there.

LOb0
02-19-2017, 02:28 PM
If you watched that team that year, and I saw pretty much every game, Iverson was the sg and Snow was a true PG for that team....if you don't have Iverson or an Iverson type of player at the SG position you don't have any offense even if it comes for you PG. That team, that year more than any other of Iverson's career was built for Iverson at SG.

If you don't have a true SG on that team it may not even make the playoffs. It was a team perfectly built with role players around Iverson.

Stats don't show Iverson's role in general and Snow took the ball in more times than not that particular year and playoff run. Did Iverson touch the ball regularly, off course he did, that is exactly how the team was built and coached.

A PG even a Westbrook type would not work at all from that team.

Westbrook is a better offensive player than Iverson.

KnicksorBust
02-19-2017, 04:21 PM
I cant decide if this is an anti-Iverson troll or a pro Westbrook troll.

bootsy
02-19-2017, 04:32 PM
Only because its true. Team of defensive players built around one guy shooting in a weak east. The defense was the key to that team Iverson just got to jack shots up.

Why do you think he never had success after that? He was having his standard year on Philly, was traded to Denver, and they got worse. Billups was added and the same team went to the West finals. Iverson then refused to change his selfish game, and was out of the league a few years later.

Iverson was an overrated black hole, that gets all the credit for a finals team where he wasn't even the main reason they got there.

Absolute nonsense with these sports talk radio talking points. Iverson is a first ballot HOFer, 11 time All Star, regular season MVP, and 4 time scoring champ. Those FACTS can't be disputed. Your opinion will never outweigh those FACTS.

europagnpilgrim
02-19-2017, 04:57 PM
Only because its true. Team of defensive players built around one guy shooting in a weak east. The defense was the key to that team Iverson just got to jack shots up.

Why do you think he never had success after that? He was having his standard year on Philly, was traded to Denver, and they got worse. Billups was added and the same team went to the West finals. Iverson then refused to change his selfish game, and was out of the league a few years later.

Iverson was an overrated black hole, that gets all the credit for a finals team where he wasn't even the main reason they got there.

the front office is to blame for putting all defensive players around him, that's just ignorant in itself to do that to a 5'10'' dynamic superstar player, he never had success after leaving Philly but put up almost 27 and 7 and 2spg in his only full season in Denver, they never gave that team a chance to gel properly and The Answer was pushing 33yrs of age at that time and Billups was added and they had a 1 hit wonder year because what happen the year after reaching the conf. finals? didn't they get put out 1st round by Jazz or something similar to that effect? why didn't they reach the finals since Billups was such a diff. maker? the team stayed healthy for the most part when Billups got there but when The Answer was traded there Melo was suspended and the following year Nene was out for the year with cancer, Melo/Answer led the league as a scoring duo in only full season together but it means nothing because they didn't reach the Finals

how did he not change his game from shooting 23+ times per game in Philly to 18 in Denver to 14 in Detroit? he gets all the credit offensively because he was all the scoring options they basically on that 01' team because the front office didn't draft or trade for the right pieces to give him offensive help, he led the league in steals 3 straight years so he helped the defense but carrying a offensive load like that would be hard for any player to be a defensive stalwart, that team had all defenders and outside of Mutombo(old at that stage) who made 1st team all nba defense? or 2nd/3rd team? it wasn't like Snow/Lynch were defensive stoppers, solid but nothing of Artest/Bowen/Leonard//Frazier/Robertson like

you didn't have to game plan to stop the other guys on that 01' team so of course he should get the boatload of credit like pretty much all the majority of the players do who achieve things on the court and are the best player(s) on that team

the Pistons had the 4th seed after that Billups trade early on and that was before the benching of him and Rip for that Stuckey guy, where is Stuckey at now? then after that they dropped to the 8th seed so I don't get all this black hole non sense, hell the Nuggets won 50 games his only full season there and got the 8th seed, how many games will the 8th seed win this year or have this past decade? Denver lost to Spurs/Lakers with The Answer in 1 and a half seasons there and both of those teams went to Finals in 07'&08'(Spurs won/Lakers lost) so they beat everybody in the playoffs and were favorites to win(or make it there) so that's not a failure at all if you use common bball sense

Jamiecballer
02-19-2017, 05:34 PM
Perfect comp and one I have been making going back as far as 5 years ago. No scenarios are identical but it's quite believable they end up in the same place losing to the lakers

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valade16
02-19-2017, 05:39 PM
Only because its true. Team of defensive players built around one guy shooting in a weak east. The defense was the key to that team Iverson just got to jack shots up.

Why do you think he never had success after that? He was having his standard year on Philly, was traded to Denver, and they got worse. Billups was added and the same team went to the West finals. Iverson then refused to change his selfish game, and was out of the league a few years later.

Iverson was an overrated black hole, that gets all the credit for a finals team where he wasn't even the main reason they got there.

So it takes the defensive contributions of the 4 other starters to exceed the offensive contribution of AI and you say that like it's a bad thing?

So AI wasn't as important as the other 4 starters combined? Cool, not many players are. He was still the most important part of that team by far.

Jamiecballer
02-19-2017, 05:39 PM
And LOL at the guy blaming the sixers management for the year they actually wised up to what it takes to compete with Iverson - defensive toughness and no competition for shots - and got to the finals because of it

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PhillyFaninLA
02-19-2017, 07:02 PM
And LOL at the guy blaming the sixers management for the year they actually wised up to what it takes to compete with Iverson - defensive toughness and no competition for shots - and got to the finals because of it

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The team was more than that in construction. It was not just toughness and defense, it was here are the specialist we need to put around Iverson to optimize him and his game. This team was so specifically built for guys around Iverson, its not about any other players ability, if you aren't a player like Iverson (including his warrior mentality) then it won't work.

LOb0
02-19-2017, 08:15 PM
the front office is to blame for putting all defensive players around him, that's just ignorant in itself to do that to a 5'10'' dynamic superstar player, he never had success after leaving Philly but put up almost 27 and 7 and 2spg in his only full season in Denver, they never gave that team a chance to gel properly and The Answer was pushing 33yrs of age at that time and Billups was added and they had a 1 hit wonder year because what happen the year after reaching the conf. finals? didn't they get put out 1st round by Jazz or something similar to that effect? why didn't they reach the finals since Billups was such a diff. maker? the team stayed healthy for the most part when Billups got there but when The Answer was traded there Melo was suspended and the following year Nene was out for the year with cancer, Melo/Answer led the league as a scoring duo in only full season together but it means nothing because they didn't reach the Finals

how did he not change his game from shooting 23+ times per game in Philly to 18 in Denver to 14 in Detroit? he gets all the credit offensively because he was all the scoring options they basically on that 01' team because the front office didn't draft or trade for the right pieces to give him offensive help, he led the league in steals 3 straight years so he helped the defense but carrying a offensive load like that would be hard for any player to be a defensive stalwart, that team had all defenders and outside of Mutombo(old at that stage) who made 1st team all nba defense? or 2nd/3rd team? it wasn't like Snow/Lynch were defensive stoppers, solid but nothing of Artest/Bowen/Leonard//Frazier/Robertson like

you didn't have to game plan to stop the other guys on that 01' team so of course he should get the boatload of credit like pretty much all the majority of the players do who achieve things on the court and are the best player(s) on that team

the Pistons had the 4th seed after that Billups trade early on and that was before the benching of him and Rip for that Stuckey guy, where is Stuckey at now? then after that they dropped to the 8th seed so I don't get all this black hole non sense, hell the Nuggets won 50 games his only full season there and got the 8th seed, how many games will the 8th seed win this year or have this past decade? Denver lost to Spurs/Lakers with The Answer in 1 and a half seasons there and both of those teams went to Finals in 07'&08'(Spurs won/Lakers lost) so they beat everybody in the playoffs and were favorites to win(or make it there) so that's not a failure at all if you use common bball sense

He changed it by the default of more players that were shooting. lol 50 games? Congrats. Team improved immediately when he left. You're delusional if you think that team was ever going to be capable of getting past the 6th seed with AI.

lol your steals defense. Iverson was one of those: let me risk my defender blowing by me as I gamble for this steal.

You can try to make all the excuses you want but at some point you need to look at maybe he was the problem. Iverson only had true success when he was on the best defensive team in the league. As he got older he refused to really change his ball hog mentality and was retired due to it. That one perfect storm of a season he had in Philly was just as overrated as he was.

LOb0
02-19-2017, 08:19 PM
So it takes the defensive contributions of the 4 other starters to exceed the offensive contribution of AI and you say that like it's a bad thing?

So AI wasn't as important as the other 4 starters combined? Cool, not many players are. He was still the most important part of that team by far.

He did what he was suppose to. Doesn't negate that he got far too much credit for it and was still completely overrated. It wasn't "Iverson dragged bums to the finals" It was "defense dragged AI to the finals"

He's statistically the most overrated MVP. He had pretty much no playoff success before or after that. He refused to change his game from shot jacking and just couldn't gel with a balanced offensive team.

europagnpilgrim
02-19-2017, 10:27 PM
And LOL at the guy blaming the sixers management for the year they actually wised up to what it takes to compete with Iverson - defensive toughness and no competition for shots - and got to the finals because of it

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The Sixers drafted him number 1 overall and the following years had the 2nd and 8th overall picks so go look at how KD was drafted and they used top 5 picks to put actual play makers/scorers/game changers around him, I am not blaming management I am pointing out it came down to management drafting right, even Brown in a recent article said they blew the 8th pick by not drafting Pierce in 98' draft and they would have been better off drafting TMac in 97' especially over the not so ready freshman in T Thomas or trading him for slow footed Van Horn

and since the East was so called weak back then what core would you rather have going forward,TMac/Pierce/The Answer or Mckie/Snow/The Answer? you guys cant be this basketball knowledge lost

you could still put the defenders around a core but don't put a entire defensive minded team around a under 6ft player and expect to get far at all, hell you cant even put all defenders around Wilt/Shaq/Duncan and expect to go to Finals every year, its a reason why Spurs went out and got Parker/Ginobili and later Leonard/Aldridge because a team of all defenders just wont cut it because you have to be able to put pressure on the defense scoring wise

europagnpilgrim
02-19-2017, 10:36 PM
He changed it by the default of more players that were shooting. lol 50 games? Congrats. Team improved immediately when he left. You're delusional if you think that team was ever going to be capable of getting past the 6th seed with AI.

lol your steals defense. Iverson was one of those: let me risk my defender blowing by me as I gamble for this steal.

You can try to make all the excuses you want but at some point you need to look at maybe he was the problem. Iverson only had true success when he was on the best defensive team in the league. As he got older he refused to really change his ball hog mentality and was retired due to it. That one perfect storm of a season he had in Philly was just as overrated as he was.

if you don't think a 50 win 8th seed is showing how deep the west is then I don't know what to tell you, teams get it now with 35-40 wins in each conference it seems like now, The Answer was pushing 32/33 by the time Denver got him so his best/young years were in philly were he rotted with a core of Snow/Mckie for 7 or so years, now name me a weaker core in history of the game, you cant

hell KD just left Westbrook and they were mates for 8yrs, same with Shaq/Kobe, now that's a nice core to build around right there

defense consists of staying in front of your man as well as shot blocking/steals/weak side help so don't dismiss him leading the league in steals because when any other player does it he is all nba defense 1st-3rd team for the most part, go look it up if you need proof

and I said if you had to be 95pct of your teams total offense then how in the world can you have the energy to play all world defense? he did the same thing he did in college when he won back to back DPOY in the big east, stealing the ball, woopty doo

everything I posted was fact but to you they are excuses for some odd reason

he had success because the coach was a defensive minded coach to the core and was lacking in being offensive minded, AI just had to adapt to what was there and he did

it wasn't a perfect storm at all it was just AI was that damn good and his culture impact rivals Jordan and the nba looks today more AI than Jordan if you really just look at the style of play, now I know why most of you on here don't like the guy because he was your height and could do things you guys just dream about, plus I think his hip hop style rubs you the wrong way, oh well



Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played," James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday's home opener against the defending champion Heat.


"I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure," James said in ESPN The Magazine's NBA Preview Issue. "But I'll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don't take anything from A.I.. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10½. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ."


Lebron James is just making up excuses as well, cut it out Lebron with the excuses(facts/telling it like it is)

JLynn943
02-19-2017, 11:42 PM
the front office is to blame for putting all defensive players around him, that's just ignorant in itself to do that to a 5'10'' dynamic superstar player, he never had success after leaving Philly but put up almost 27 and 7 and 2spg in his only full season in Denver, they never gave that team a chance to gel properly and The Answer was pushing 33yrs of age at that time and Billups was added and they had a 1 hit wonder year because what happen the year after reaching the conf. finals? didn't they get put out 1st round by Jazz or something similar to that effect? why didn't they reach the finals since Billups was such a diff. maker? the team stayed healthy for the most part when Billups got there but when The Answer was traded there Melo was suspended and the following year Nene was out for the year with cancer, Melo/Answer led the league as a scoring duo in only full season together but it means nothing because they didn't reach the Finals

how did he not change his game from shooting 23+ times per game in Philly to 18 in Denver to 14 in Detroit? he gets all the credit offensively because he was all the scoring options they basically on that 01' team because the front office didn't draft or trade for the right pieces to give him offensive help, he led the league in steals 3 straight years so he helped the defense but carrying a offensive load like that would be hard for any player to be a defensive stalwart, that team had all defenders and outside of Mutombo(old at that stage) who made 1st team all nba defense? or 2nd/3rd team? it wasn't like Snow/Lynch were defensive stoppers, solid but nothing of Artest/Bowen/Leonard//Frazier/Robertson like

you didn't have to game plan to stop the other guys on that 01' team so of course he should get the boatload of credit like pretty much all the majority of the players do who achieve things on the court and are the best player(s) on that team

the Pistons had the 4th seed after that Billups trade early on and that was before the benching of him and Rip for that Stuckey guy, where is Stuckey at now? then after that they dropped to the 8th seed so I don't get all this black hole non sense, hell the Nuggets won 50 games his only full season there and got the 8th seed, how many games will the 8th seed win this year or have this past decade? Denver lost to Spurs/Lakers with The Answer in 1 and a half seasons there and both of those teams went to Finals in 07'&08'(Spurs won/Lakers lost) so they beat everybody in the playoffs and were favorites to win(or make it there) so that's not a failure at all if you use common bball sense

Thank you for actually knowing what you're talking about. That's rare here, especially in Iverson threads.

LOb0
02-20-2017, 12:02 AM
if you don't think a 50 win 8th seed is showing how deep the west is then I don't know what to tell you, teams get it now with 35-40 wins in each conference it seems like now, The Answer was pushing 32/33 by the time Denver got him so his best/young years were in philly were he rotted with a core of Snow/Mckie for 7 or so years, now name me a weaker core in history of the game, you cant

hell KD just left Westbrook and they were mates for 8yrs, same with Shaq/Kobe, now that's a nice core to build around right there

defense consists of staying in front of your man as well as shot blocking/steals/weak side help so don't dismiss him leading the league in steals because when any other player does it he is all nba defense 1st-3rd team for the most part, go look it up if you need proof

and I said if you had to be 95pct of your teams total offense then how in the world can you have the energy to play all world defense? he did the same thing he did in college when he won back to back DPOY in the big east, stealing the ball, woopty doo

everything I posted was fact but to you they are excuses for some odd reason

he had success because the coach was a defensive minded coach to the core and was lacking in being offensive minded, AI just had to adapt to what was there and he did

it wasn't a perfect storm at all it was just AI was that damn good and his culture impact rivals Jordan and the nba looks today more AI than Jordan if you really just look at the style of play, now I know why most of you on here don't like the guy because he was your height and could do things you guys just dream about, plus I think his hip hop style rubs you the wrong way, oh well



Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played," James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday's home opener against the defending champion Heat.


"I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure," James said in ESPN The Magazine's NBA Preview Issue. "But I'll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don't take anything from A.I.. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10½. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ."


Lebron James is just making up excuses as well, cut it out Lebron with the excuses(facts/telling it like it is)

lol his culture and hip hop style? I'm talking basketball. I think that stuff makes you overrate him.

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 12:20 AM
lol his culture and hip hop style? I'm talking basketball. I think that stuff makes you overrate him.

If we are talking about pure basketball stuff then only knock on him is being 5'10'' because he had everything else in a ball player you would want x10

Jordan/Ali all get overrated then I guess for having a big impact on the culture itself, it usually happens that way when you are that damn good

those who don't like The Answer are usually folks who are not of that style so that's the reason why I mentioned that but those who know ball would love a player of his talent/skill/heart/toughness regardless of culture, he was just closer to Nate Robinson height than to Jordan/Lebron/Shaq/Dipper and so on

I don't care about the off court stuff because I am strictly ranking him on what he showcased on the hardwood, he stuck out like a sore thumb since HS, not just the nba, always jumped off the screen at you if you watched him play

the guy didn't even get a chance to play senior HS year sports and went to G'Town and dropped 20ppg as a freshman, dude put up basically 24 and 8 as a nba rookie, what more can you say?

I guess Lebron and others overrate him if you nit pick enough

and stop with the cherry picking because I clearly stated way more facts than a hip hop style/culture, but I guess you cant refute facts so carry on

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 12:38 AM
if you put Westbrook on that 01 team they probably don't make it out the 1st round vs Indy and no doubt would have lost to V Carter and Raptors

a starting lineup or Westbrook/Snow/Hill/Lynch/Mutumbo would be worse off because at least The Answer could run off screens all day so Snow could set up the pass, Westbrook cant do that because he doesn't have the natural shooting skill of The Answer, go watch the game film for proof because you guys get caught up in percentages too much to really dissect a player, The Answer could run off screens like Miller/Rip/Allen and so forth and that's why it worked with Snow because Snow struggled to make a 10 ft jumper which a true PG should be able to hit those with his eyes closed

Westbrook wouldn't be able to play 42-45minutes per game as well or he would be doing it right now because they need him to do that in OKC as of today

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 12:55 AM
Thank you for actually knowing what you're talking about. That's rare here, especially in Iverson threads.

no prob

if a Jordan/CP3/Bird/Nash/Stockton or any other admired player on this psd forum would have made the Finals with AI support cast they would have a statue built on their front lawn of that player and sit back in a hammock and stare at it daily

LOb0
02-20-2017, 01:09 AM
If we are talking about pure basketball stuff then only knock on him is being 5'10'' because he had everything else in a ball player you would want x10

Jordan/Ali all get overrated then I guess for having a big impact on the culture itself, it usually happens that way when you are that damn good

those who don't like The Answer are usually folks who are not of that style so that's the reason why I mentioned that but those who know ball would love a player of his talent/skill/heart/toughness regardless of culture, he was just closer to Nate Robinson height than to Jordan/Lebron/Shaq/Dipper and so on

I don't care about the off court stuff because I am strictly ranking him on what he showcased on the hardwood, he stuck out like a sore thumb since HS, not just the nba, always jumped off the screen at you if you watched him play

the guy didn't even get a chance to play senior HS year sports and went to G'Town and dropped 20ppg as a freshman, dude put up basically 24 and 8 as a nba rookie, what more can you say?

I guess Lebron and others overrate him if you nit pick enough

and stop with the cherry picking because I clearly stated way more facts than a hip hop style/culture, but I guess you cant refute facts so carry on

I don't like Iverson because he was a ball hogging shot jacker that got way too much credit likely due to all that other crap.

I've stated more facts then you and all you've giving is age as an excuse when he was putting up the same stats in Denver and how the team magically got better when he left.

The only success Iverson ever had was on the leagues best defensive team. All you're doing is making excuses. and trying to pull a hip hop argument out of your ***.

LOb0
02-20-2017, 01:11 AM
Thank you for actually knowing what you're talking about. That's rare here, especially in Iverson threads.


He doesn't there's just lots of Iverson fans that like to side with illogical crap despite all the facts proving just how completely overrated he was.

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 02:10 AM
I don't like Iverson because he was a ball hogging shot jacker that got way too much credit likely due to all that other crap.

I've stated more facts then you and all you've giving is age as an excuse when he was putting up the same stats in Denver and how the team magically got better when he left.

The only success Iverson ever had was on the leagues best defensive team. All you're doing is making excuses. and trying to pull a hip hop argument out of your ***.

Since when did being a shot jacker ball hog become so detrimental to a offensive starved team?

Wherever Brown coached his team was defense/slow half court style so why is that so damn amazing?

how is giving his age an excuse when it actually happened? he wasn't putting up the same stats because his shot attempts went down and his scoring went from 33ppg to 27ppg, and Denver really didn't get magically better because they won like 3-4 more games and went from Conf finals to 1st round exit with Billups

He had limited success because his core players for 7 yrs averaged like 3-7ppg for entire careers(look it up for proof) and they avg. 10-12ppg with him each, career highs

Mckie avg 7ppg for his entire career
Snow avg 6.8ppg for his entire career, there I gave you more facts that you will call excuses, just pure lame on your part

now how in the world are you supposed to compete in a 7 yr span with that type of scoring support? I bet you think those two players should have done the shot jacking and ball hogging but then you would flip the script and say why wasn't AI shooting more, all you are doing is showing pre school judgement and spewing cliché that the media has brainwashed those to think like

you keep saying I am making excuses but just trying to expand your mind and get out of you ballhogging shot jacker thinking mode, you act like he played with two other 25ppg scorers/all nba talent and ball hogged and reduced them to 10ppg scorers which is completely false, had he done that I would be right on board with you but Mckie/Snow/Lynch are not even close to being on that level

I wasn't trying to pull no hip hop argument, once again I was using that as a side example as to why you non hip hoppers don't like him, its either that or he was a ball hog which is so cliché because you obviously didn't watch him for his 10 1/2 yrs in philly

LOb0
02-20-2017, 02:39 AM
Since when did being a shot jacker ball hog become so detrimental to a offensive starved team?

I never said it was detrimental. I said he got too much credit for the success of that team.


Wherever Brown coached his team was defense/slow half court style so why is that so damn amazing?

Yeah and he won a title with it. Again best defense in the NBA.




how is giving his age an excuse when it actually happened? he wasn't putting up the same stats because his shot attempts went down and his scoring went from 33ppg to 27ppg, and Denver really didn't get magically better because they won like 3-4 more games and went from Conf finals to 1st round exit with Billups

If Iverson was so good that he dragged "Bums" to the finals you'd think when he was on a team with offensive talent they'd be amazing. Hardly the case. They improved when he was gone the very next season. Iverson was still in his prime or slightly past it. Age is not an excuse.


He had limited success because his core players for 7 yrs averaged like 3-7ppg for entire careers(look it up for proof) and they avg. 10-12ppg with him each, career highs

That team was built with defense in mind. Best defensive team in the league. Iverson could shoot. If the team was had scorers and subpar defense, see how his Denver stint, or even his Detroit stint turned out.






you keep saying I am making excuses but just trying to expand your mind and get out of you ballhogging shot jacker thinking mode, you act like he played with two other 25ppg scorers/all nba talent and ball hogged and reduced them to 10ppg scorers which is completely false, had he done that I would be right on board with you but Mckie/Snow/Lynch are not even close to being on that level

I wasn't trying to pull no hip hop argument, once again I was using that as a side example as to why you non hip hoppers don't like him, its either that or he was a ball hog which is so cliché because you obviously didn't watch him for his 10 1/2 yrs in philly

The ball hog reasoning comes from is inability to change his game at any point after leaving Philly. Your attempts will naturally go down some when you're on a team with more scorers. He was still jacking it up. Look at Detroit's death spiral when he took over.

Iverson could only win on an elite defensive team when he was firing it up at will. That is why he's overrated.

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 03:26 AM
I never said it was detrimental. I said he got too much credit for the success of that team.



Yeah and he won a title with it. Again best defense in the NBA.





If Iverson was so good that he dragged "Bums" to the finals you'd think when he was on a team with offensive talent they'd be amazing. Hardly the case. They improved when he was gone the very next season. Iverson was still in his prime or slightly past it. Age is not an excuse.



That team was built with defense in mind. Best defensive team in the league. Iverson could shoot. If the team was had scorers and subpar defense, see how his Denver stint, or even his Detroit stint turned out.







The ball hog reasoning comes from is inability to change his game at any point after leaving Philly. Your attempts will naturally go down some when you're on a team with more scorers. He was still jacking it up. Look at Detroit's death spiral when he took over.

Iverson could only win on an elite defensive team when he was firing it up at will. That is why he's overrated.

1. the way the game is played it whoever scores the most points win, carrying a huge offensive load is glorified ever since the 60's, see Dipper for proof of that, the same credit you give the defense being number one has to slide over to a player who was the teams 1-4th option on offense, usually teams have a big 3 not a one man show offense, its the same reason Lebron left Cavs first time around


2. Brown to me is best coach to do it but that doesn't mean he didn't have his offensive flaws being he was so stubbornly defensive minded so he should have top flight defense wherever he coached, and that is the reason why he only won 1 title in like 50yrs of coaching, two if you count Kansas

3. he did carry a team of defenders to the Finals since he was the only offensive threat and could drop 40-50pts on any given night, I already told you that his youth(or you may call it prime) was in Philly the first 10yrs, he was old by the time he got to Denver, those yrs of carrying Mckie/Snow and minutes/playing injured wore on him and he was still good but not the same super dynamic freak of nature, the system Karl ran suited him so he could still put up 26-27ppg but his shots went down because he had that young stud in Melo who was avg. 34ppg before he arrived there, you got to be smarter than this to know something so basic, asking a guy of his size to do what he did for Philly is insane in basketball terms, like asking Barry Sanders to carry Detroit to the super bowl back in his 2k rushing days, its a team game not a 1 man show, being 12 yrs in the league is not in your damn prime and Denver won 3-4 more games with Billups when that trade happened, you act like they had a 15-20 game improvement, child please

4. if that team would have had Tmac/Pierce in that so called weak East with a younger dynamic AI then they would have went to the Finals from 99' or 00-06, easily, with Brown coaching with his defensive scheme

5. so if his attempts went down then how was he shot jacking ball hogging after leaving philly? he played with Melo and then went to Detroit where they run like 20 diff. sets and he adjusted, going from 18 shots per game to 14 is adjusting and if you think otherwise then you need to watch another sport or step up you bball knowledge, Detroit had the 4th seed pre Stuckey debacle, do you even keep up with the true facts of sports or just repeat what you hear from the media outlets? isn't a top 4 seed home court advantage? Detroit promised him they wouldnt bring him off the bench and then when all that happened they spiraled to 8th seed, had they kept the lineup in tact and brought Stuckey off the bench they would have been a top 4 team out East, Stuckey was deemed untouchable by Dumars and now plays elsewhere? he was garbage then and now but somehow you and Dumars figured it was better to bench Rip/AI for him, child please

AI was coached by a defensive minded stubborn coach and was moved from PG to SG to shoulder the teams need to shoot and score at will, to me that is doing what is best for the team and making you a team player, SG isn't his natural position, he played that his rookie year and when O'Brien coached the team and he put up 33ppg and 8apg with a young duo of Iggy/Korver

LOb0
02-20-2017, 04:12 AM
1. the way the game is played it whoever scores the most points win, carrying a huge offensive load is glorified ever since the 60's, see Dipper for proof of that, the same credit you give the defense being number one has to slide over to a player who was the teams 1-4th option on offense, usually teams have a big 3 not a one man show offense, its the same reason Lebron left Cavs first time around

No, there's being deserving of the credit, as Lebron was and not being so deserving of the credit like Iverson was.




2. Brown to me is best coach to do it but that doesn't mean he didn't have his offensive flaws being he was so stubbornly defensive minded so he should have top flight defense wherever he coached, and that is the reason why he only won 1 title in like 50yrs of coaching, two if you count Kansas
Laughable point when most coaches go their entire career without winning a title. It's about finding the right situation. That title alone is more impressive due not having superstar players. And winning with defense. Sounds like how that Iverson team got to the finals


3. he did carry a team of defenders to the Finals since he was the only offensive threat and could drop 40-50pts on any given night, I already told you that his youth(or you may call it prime) was in Philly the first 10yrs, he was old by the time he got to Denver, those yrs of carrying Mckie/Snow and minutes/playing injured wore on him and he was still good but not the same super dynamic freak of nature, the system Karl ran suited him so he could still put up 26-27ppg but his shots went down because he had that young stud in Melo who was avg. 34ppg before he arrived there, you got to be smarter than this to know something so basic, asking a guy of his size to do what he did for Philly is insane in basketball terms, like asking Barry Sanders to carry Detroit to the super bowl back in his 2k rushing days, its a team game not a 1 man show, being 12 yrs in the league is not in your damn prime and Denver won 3-4 more games with Billups when that trade happened, you act like they had a 15-20 game improvement, child please

This is purely an excuse you can't prove. Statistically Iverson was nearly the same player right before he went to Denver. Yet you're saying he just happened to decline right at that moment? Lol please. Excuses. I said they improved and they did. If Iverson was so great in carrying Philly with no one that team should have been far better now that he had help. Sounds like it just proves my point.


4. if that team would have had Tmac/Pierce in that so called weak East with a younger dynamic AI then they would have went to the Finals from 99' or 00-06, easily, with Brown coaching with his defensive scheme

Congrats on your improvable theory. I don't think Iverson can mesh with another scorer and we have no reason to believe he can.


5. so if his attempts went down then how was he shot jacking ball hogging after leaving philly? he played with Melo and then went to Detroit where they run like 20 diff. sets and he adjusted, going from 18 shots per game to 14 is adjusting and if you think otherwise then you need to watch another sport or step up you bball knowledge, Detroit had the 4th seed pre Stuckey debacle, do you even keep up with the true facts of sports or just repeat what you hear from the media outlets? isn't a top 4 seed home court advantage? Detroit promised him they wouldnt bring him off the bench and then when all that happened they spiraled to 8th seed, had they kept the lineup in tact and brought Stuckey off the bench they would have been a top 4 team out East, Stuckey was deemed untouchable by Dumars and now plays elsewhere? he was garbage then and now but somehow you and Dumars figured it was better to bench Rip/AI for him, child please

You're this desperate to blame Stucky now? lol. Iverson didn't play that well and that team just wasn't good. I'm not going to get deep in debate with the Detroit stuff because he was older at this point.


AI was coached by a defensive minded stubborn coach and was moved from PG to SG to shoulder the teams need to shoot and score at will, to me that is doing what is best for the team and making you a team player, SG isn't his natural position, he played that his rookie year and when O'Brien coached the team and he put up 33ppg and 8apg with a young duo of Iggy/Korver

AI needed a defensive minded coach. His only success came from it. Congrats on putting up those empty 33PPG on a 38 win team.

All I see from AI apologists is excuses. He didn't have help, when he got help it was every one elses fault. He got to the finals one year gets all the credit when he was on the best defensive team in the league. He was statically the worst MVP in history. How much more do you need before you see an obvious pattern?

Iverson is a likeable little guy that was a good scorer that everyone overrates. He wasn't as good as you think he was.

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 05:50 AM
No, there's being deserving of the credit, as Lebron was and not being so deserving of the credit like Iverson was.




Laughable point when most coaches go their entire career without winning a title. It's about finding the right situation. That title alone is more impressive due not having superstar players. And winning with defense. Sounds like how that Iverson team got to the finals



This is purely an excuse you can't prove. Statistically Iverson was nearly the same player right before he went to Denver. Yet you're saying he just happened to decline right at that moment? Lol please. Excuses. I said they improved and they did. If Iverson was so great in carrying Philly with no one that team should have been far better now that he had help. Sounds like it just proves my point.



Congrats on your improvable theory. I don't think Iverson can mesh with another scorer and we have no reason to believe he can.



You're this desperate to blame Stucky now? lol. Iverson didn't play that well and that team just wasn't good. I'm not going to get deep in debate with the Detroit stuff because he was older at this point.



AI needed a defensive minded coach. His only success came from it. Congrats on putting up those empty 33PPG on a 38 win team.

All I see from AI apologists is excuses. He didn't have help, when he got help it was every one elses fault. He got to the finals one year gets all the credit when he was on the best defensive team in the league. He was statically the worst MVP in history. How much more do you need before you see an obvious pattern?

Iverson is a likeable little guy that was a good scorer that everyone overrates. He wasn't as good as you think he was.

1. I have just figured out you dislike Lebron and AI, good for you

2. that works both ways for coaches and players in finding the right situation or building a team the right way around a franchise player, philly failed to do so in 10 yrs while also having 2 more lottery picks in the top 10 to make it work, similar to how Orlando drafted Penny with Shaq and OKC did when they drafted KD, some of the best all time players never win a title and that Detroit team had 3 lottery pick guys in Billups/Rip/Sheed and at one point Sheed had superstar type game, inside out beast with Portland and glue guys like Prince and B Wallace, and they had 4 all stars in one season so Brown inherited a team that was already made to contend for a title and he came and closed the deal with back to back trips

Billups/RIP/Sheed is a way better offensive core that what Brown had in Philly and you could even post up Prince to mix it up, you keep acting like the best defensive teams won the title with scrub offensive players when that is not the case at all, Golden state had the best defense a couple years ago but were they offensive challenged as well? no, its about having a balance from the Owner to the Coaching staff to the roster

3. if being drafted at like 20-21yrs of age and 32-33yrs of age isn't a difference then I don't know what to tell you, how am I making excuses when it actually happened? he didn't play injured and also sat out games while in philly? he didn't play 42+mpg? he didn't carry mckie/snow for years? a 4 game improvement, wow, unreal, based on your knowledge I guess a 1 game is improvement, I call an improvement like how Houston won 41 games all of last year and at all star break they have 40 wins, not going from 40 wins to 44, nothing to boast about but whatever makes you sleep at night

4. Mesh with another scorer? you are really bball challenged, what do you call Melo? or a old micro surgery 2x over C Webber? Melo was a pure scorer and they led the league in scoring as a duo with Melo being in his 4th season and AI in his 12th, AI shot the highest percentage of his career with that other scorer in Denver, you are quite the comedian I see, but you will take that reason as an excuse like the pattern you keep using

you do realize he only played 1 full season in Denver right? not 3-5years or 7yrs like he did with snow/mckie, you make it seem like he was 25yrs old and went to Denver and played until he was 33yrs old and they never made it out the 1st round, he was traded mid season in 07' season right around when Melo got suspended for that fight at the Garden

5. once again I tell you what happen in Detroit and then you go and say he was older, that was just a season removed from Denver so why is he older now but wasn't when he was in Denver just 7 months earlier? you are a funny kid, go look up the story that RIP/AI told to the media and tell me how am I blaming Stuckey, you do know Dumars thought he was franchise/untouchable material at one point? he was average garbage then and now wherever he plays at these days

6. AI needed a offensive minded coach who played to his run and gun talents who preached defense, like Nash had in Phoenix, his success came from him being able to ball on the hardwood, he had the worst support cast for a mvp as well, how much more do you need to see? go back and look at mckie/snow stats for proof, mckie won the 6th man of year with like 11.5ppg, that has to be the lowest ever for a 6th man but you would sware its an excuse

he was a little guy that had no business playing SG but had the ability and skill and mind set to do it, nobody that size can play a SG spot for the years he did

everybody knows he played with all defenders, that's what makes it amazing because a team of all defenders who cant score wont get to no Finals with a player under 6ft as the lone scorer, that's why most call it a magical run because it wasn't supposed to happen, that team wasn't built for no Finals run but AI made it happen with his 40 and 50pt games, that Philly team wasn't pre season favorites to come out the East, they over achieved each year Brown was the coach for 6yrs

Hawkeye15
02-20-2017, 10:57 AM
Iverson is one of the more polarizing players in modern history, so there is never a fair/rational debate over him. His fans defend him with everything they have, his haters the opposite.

imo, they are very similar players, with Westbrook being the superior playmaker, and bigger. I think Philly does about the same back in 2001. Remember how bad the east really was....there were arguably 6 teams out west better than any team in the east that year.

TheDish87
02-20-2017, 11:01 AM
They'd make the finals. WB >>> Iverson. That team got to the finals due to its defense not Iverson. Iverson was extremely overrated.

lol thats cute.

Chronz
02-20-2017, 12:13 PM
I do wonder just how much the philosophy of the game changing would influence these players.

Scoring pgs are so in vogue now that it's hard to recall the time when they were considered large detriments to ball movement. Today ball movement can be so simplistic that the 1-5 flat is the most spammed play in the league.

Guys like Jamal Crawford have come out and said they came into the league 10 years too soon. Jamal came in as a Pg but failed at the position because of how much facilitation was required of the position in the bigger league.

I personally think AI would have been given the luxury of playing more at the 1 today instead of being the liability he was at the 2. Maybe not, it's hard to say but I do think RWB would have handled the physicality of that era better simply because of his size. It's hard imagining the best defensive team in the conference getting worse without AI but with RWB as both were/are just gamblers only RWB is way better on the boards

Hawkeye15
02-20-2017, 12:16 PM
I do wonder just how much the philosophy of the game changing would influence these players.

Scoring pgs are so in vogue now that it's hard to recall the time when they were considered large detriments to ball movement. Today ball movement can be so simplistic that the 1-5 flat is the most spammed play in the league.

Guys like Jamal Crawford have come out and said they came into the league 10 years too soon. Jamal came in as a Pg but failed at the position because of how much facilitation was required of the position in the bigger league.

I personally think AI would have been given the luxury of playing more at the 1 today instead of being the liability he was at the 2. Maybe not, it's hard to say but I do think RWB would have handled the physicality of that era better simply because of his size. It's hard imagining the best defensive team in the conference getting worse without AI but with RWB as both were/are just gamblers only RWB is way better on the boards

oh for sure

LOb0
02-20-2017, 12:50 PM
1. I have just figured out you dislike Lebron and AI, good for you

No I'm using these magical things called stats. You should try them one day.


2. that works both ways for coaches and players in finding the right situation or building a team the right way around a franchise player, philly failed to do so in 10 yrs while also having 2 more lottery picks in the top 10 to make it work, similar to how Orlando drafted Penny with Shaq and OKC did when they drafted KD, some of the best all time players never win a title and that Detroit team had 3 lottery pick guys in Billups/Rip/Sheed and at one point Sheed had superstar type game, inside out beast with Portland and glue guys like Prince and B Wallace, and they had 4 all stars in one season so Brown inherited a team that was already made to contend for a title and he came and closed the deal with back to back trips

That team won due to its defense. Bottom line.




3. if being drafted at like 20-21yrs of age and 32-33yrs of age isn't a difference then I don't know what to tell you, how am I making excuses when it actually happened? he didn't play injured and also sat out games while in philly? he didn't play 42+mpg? he didn't carry mckie/snow for years? a 4 game improvement, wow, unreal, based on your knowledge I guess a 1 game is improvement, I call an improvement like how Houston won 41 games all of last year and at all star break they have 40 wins, not going from 40 wins to 44, nothing to boast about but whatever makes you sleep at night

Statistically he was close to the same player. If Iverson was as great as you're saying Denver should have made them leaps better which he did not, and actually made them worse.


4. Mesh with another scorer? you are really bball challenged, what do you call Melo? or a old micro surgery 2x over C Webber? Melo was a pure scorer and they led the league in scoring as a duo with Melo being in his 4th season and AI in his 12th, AI shot the highest percentage of his career with that other scorer in Denver, you are quite the comedian I see, but you will take that reason as an excuse like the pattern you keep using

Too bad none of that translated to winning. My whole point isn't that Iverson can't score. It's that his shot jacking never translated to winning outside of one year that he was on a great defensive team, and one season in Denver where they improved when he left. But I guess I should still give Iverson the credit for both those teams right?



5. once again I tell you what happen in Detroit and then you go and say he was older, that was just a season removed from Denver so why is he older now but wasn't when he was in Denver just 7 months earlier? you are a funny kid, go look up the story that RIP/AI told to the media and tell me how am I blaming Stuckey, you do know Dumars thought he was franchise/untouchable material at one point? he was average garbage then and now wherever he plays at these days

Well his stats dropped off in Detroit, so it was he declined or didn't fit. Iverson played 36 minutes a game in Detroit. So I really don't care about your Stuckey excuse.




6. AI needed a offensive minded coach who played to his run and gun talents who preached defense, like Nash had in Phoenix, his success came from him being able to ball on the hardwood, he had the worst support cast for a mvp as well, how much more do you need to see? go back and look at mckie/snow stats for proof, mckie won the 6th man of year with like 11.5ppg, that has to be the lowest ever for a 6th man but you would sware its an excuse

he was a little guy that had no business playing SG but had the ability and skill and mind set to do it, nobody that size can play a SG spot for the years he did

everybody knows he played with all defenders, that's what makes it amazing because a team of all defenders who cant score wont get to no Finals with a player under 6ft as the lone scorer, that's why most call it a magical run because it wasn't supposed to happen, that team wasn't built for no Finals run but AI made it happen with his 40 and 50pt games, that Philly team wasn't pre season favorites to come out the East, they over achieved each year Brown was the coach for 6yrs

He needed an offensive minded coach when his best success came from a defensive minded coach lol.

You want to give him credit for all that stuff fine. He was completely overrated and in my mind gets far too much credit for that 2001 team and no way in hell should have been MVP in 2001.

europagnpilgrim
02-20-2017, 05:21 PM
No I'm using these magical things called stats. You should try them one day.



That team won due to its defense. Bottom line.





Statistically he was close to the same player. If Iverson was as great as you're saying Denver should have made them leaps better which he did not, and actually made them worse.



Too bad none of that translated to winning. My whole point isn't that Iverson can't score. It's that his shot jacking never translated to winning outside of one year that he was on a great defensive team, and one season in Denver where they improved when he left. But I guess I should still give Iverson the credit for both those teams right?




Well his stats dropped off in Detroit, so it was he declined or didn't fit. Iverson played 36 minutes a game in Detroit. So I really don't care about your Stuckey excuse.





He needed an offensive minded coach when his best success came from a defensive minded coach lol.

You want to give him credit for all that stuff fine. He was completely overrated and in my mind gets far too much credit for that 2001 team and no way in hell should have been MVP in 2001.

1. both Lebron/AI carried those teams, regardless of the stats just watch the game unless you just start watching nba this past decade then you wont have a clue

2. who did the scoring or did they just win 2-0 over 4 quarters each game? I guess mckie/snow and that combined 20ppg(13.8ppg career combined) that season won those 56 games (AI sat out final 5 or they would have won 60), Brown and his D scheme is what made that team work on that end, similar to Thibs when he was assistant at Rockets/Celtics and as the Bulls head coach, you make it seem like they had all world defenders when it was just that's all they were decent at doing because they couldn't score/create, you know the name of the game is putting the ball through the bucket the most right? the team won because the combo of the def. scheme and the takeover ability/scoring of The Answer, bottomline

3. I told you he had been run into the ground in Philly with the heavy minutes/playing injured and though he was still capable of doing putting up 25ppg I just don't think he was capable of putting up 40-50pts every night like when he was first drafted by Sixers, mileage plays a big part that you seem to ignore for personal reasons, Denver wasn't title contenders before he got there, by year 12 players of his caliber need to be on legit title contenders, especially being one of the faces after Jordan retired, even if it was not to Sterns liking

if AI was such a black hole/shot jacker ball hog that you claimed he would have went to Denver and shot 25 times per game and reduced Melo to a 12-15ppg scorer

4. you said he couldn't mesh with another scorer now you translate it into not winning but he made the playoffs with both young Melo and old washed up Webber and both times they lost to the Finals representative teams, it don't matter if you lose in the first round or Conf finals because you go home either way, keep reaching for straws

5. his stats dropped in Denver but it was due to having another 30ppg scorer and he was 12yrs in the league by now which he lost a half step but was still fast, just like in Detroit he adjusted to what style they ran so he shot even less because they use a lot more complex sets which you would know if you actually watched the games and not just look at stats, if AI was such a ball hog chucker why did he not shoot 20+ times per game in Detroit regardless of age? why did he shoot only 7 times per half(14 attempts per game), why did he shoot 9 attempts per half with Denver if he was such a ball hog shot jacker? you are a comedian

its not a Stuckey excuse if you go read the article and if you knew how Dumars had a hard on for him when he drafted the average player who he put on a pedestal that disrupted a top 4 seed into damn near falling out of the playoffs to appease his Stuckey, how is it a Stuckey excuse when the situation actually happened? you confuse fact with opinions

I keep giving you stats and you take them as excuses but when you say you use stats they are facts? comedian

6. he needed a offensive minded coach to maximize his abilities and let him play fast and free similar to what Thompson did for him in college and how Karl/Mike D offense does, similar to how Nash went from Mavs to Suns playing free and fast, he sure didn't need a slow pace half court style coach like Brown as far as maximizing his true unique abilities, if you cant see that then I don't know what is wrong with your bball knowledge, and his most team success came wit h Brown but he showcased his game day 1 rookie year(ROY) regardless the coach he always balled out even pre NBA



Here are some more of your so called excuses(facts)

where does snow and mckie rank on your personal all time best(greatest) list? are they in your top 100 or 200? snow was averaging like 3-5ppg before joining AI in philly but you would say that is an excuse when it is actually fact

where does T Hill and G Lynch rank on your personal all time best list, top 100 or 200?

where does Mutombo rank all time on the most dominant Center list of all time? at the age of 34 at that

where do you rank K Thomas on your all time list? I bet you don't even remember K Thomas or that other big man he had in M Jackson or how about M Harpring

where do you rank Van Horn on your all time best player list, you probably don't even remember him either

how effective was D Coleman after he bloated to almost 400lbs?

where does Korver and Iggy rank on your all time best players list? Korver is a specialist 3pt shooter that is just that and Iggy was a athletic dunker/defender that he is still that, both are 10 yrs later

did AI play with the Michigan/Bullets/Golden st/Kings verslon of Webber or a guy who had 2 micro fracture injuries that retired basically a year or two after playing one full season with AI?

now how in the world can facts be looked at as excuses when it (f)actually happened?

nobody is making excuses for AI but rather telling you how it happened and management failed him something awful, bottomline

the two players they should have drafted in Pierce/Tmac rank higher than all those players but at one time Webber was a beast and Coleman coming out of Syracuse and playing for Nets was a beast, all before teaming up with AI

Now are these excuses or fact?