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View Full Version : Can someone explain the Phil Jackson-Knicks hate?



LOb0
02-11-2017, 01:11 AM
The guy took over a team that wasn't very good, at the time JR Smith and Felton had negative value, he traded them to clean the decks, maybe could have got a bit more had he waited fine. But he got the Knicks the first young star in years in Porzingis, resigned Carmelo who he will trade for something rather than letting him walk for nothing.

The only move he's made I've truly hated was the Noah contract. So can someone explain why he's hated so badly? Do people really think you can just rebuild a team in a whim?

FlashBolt
02-11-2017, 02:35 AM
1) Because he's a money-grabber. No one honestly believes he cares about the Knicks.
2) Signed Noah.
3) Traded Smith/Shump for pennies and now Smith/Shump are important players for a championship team.
4) His terrible hiring of coaches. What's going on there?
5) His triangle nonsense confused the hell out of the team and coaches.
6) Handled the Melo debacle in the worst way possible. I'm no defender of Melo as I think he could have gone to a more competitive team at the expense of money but Phil has made Melo look like an angel.
7) Why did they sign Noah to that contract? #2
8) He hasn't shown any willingness to speak on the team and their plans. He's been rather quiet behind the scenes. He should be out there coaching for a few games to at least show the team how to play "championship basketball" but he's more concerned about retweeting negative articles about the best player on his team.
9) His posse label irked many in the league. I'm not sure what the intentions were but he is terrible with the media. Has a bad reputation for attacking players verbally.
10) Porzingis was a great signing but he's a project. When Phil was signed to the Knicks, he said they would be competing for a championship. Why did they need Phil if the entire duration has been the Knicks failing?
11) Fired Mike Woodson despite him being the best coach the Knicks had in years. Actually had them winning games.
12) Chandler traded for scraps. I forgot who he was traded for but he was their best defensive player, energy guy, and leader.

All-in-all, it's because Phil has been terrible. He's in it for the money.

LOb0
02-11-2017, 03:11 AM
1) Because he's a money-grabber. No one honestly believes he cares about the Knicks.
2) Signed Noah.
3) Traded Smith/Shump for pennies and now Smith/Shump are important players for a championship team.
4) His terrible hiring of coaches. What's going on there?
5) His triangle nonsense confused the hell out of the team and coaches.
6) Handled the Melo debacle in the worst way possible. I'm no defender of Melo as I think he could have gone to a more competitive team at the expense of money but Phil has made Melo look like an angel.
7) Why did they sign Noah to that contract? #2
8) He hasn't shown any willingness to speak on the team and their plans. He's been rather quiet behind the scenes. He should be out there coaching for a few games to at least show the team how to play "championship basketball" but he's more concerned about retweeting negative articles about the best player on his team.
9) His posse label irked many in the league. I'm not sure what the intentions were but he is terrible with the media. Has a bad reputation for attacking players verbally.
10) Porzingis was a great signing but he's a project. When Phil was signed to the Knicks, he said they would be competing for a championship. Why did they need Phil if the entire duration has been the Knicks failing?
11) Fired Mike Woodson despite him being the best coach the Knicks had in years. Actually had them winning games.
12) Chandler traded for scraps. I forgot who he was traded for but he was their best defensive player, energy guy, and leader.

All-in-all, it's because Phil has been terrible. He's in it for the money.


You make good points. His choice of coaches and triangle is horrible. And yeah Woodson got screwed.

Stuff I disagree with.

- Him coaching wouldn't make an ounce of difference.
- He traded Chandler to get rid of Felton (Bad trade but Felton was poison at the time with off court issues)
- JR was dead in NY, you can check his stats, and his rep was shot, Shump was the tax to get rid of him. Again not a great trade but understandable.
- Competing for a championship? That would be literally impossible for anyone to have done at this stage unless they got LeBron.
- I think he wants to get rid of Melo and is playing mind games. If he can get the Bulls to take him for a first rounder as I've heard some rumblings about, that's a win. He could have let him walk.
- The posse stuff was overblown ********.


I just think people are being to hard on him. You move Melo for a first rounder, rebuild with Porzingis, and try to get a FA in the mean time. Knicks are in a better position now than in years.

I wonder if Knicks fans will bash him for rebuilding despite it being the correct move.

Hugbees
02-11-2017, 05:59 AM
He traded Chandler (who was still very serviceable) for Calderon (an even worse contract and probably one of the worst in the league) and was dead weight every time he stepped onto the floor. None of the pieces they obtained from the Mavericks remotely contributed, they simply got destroyed in that trade. In fact, every trade Phil has made has ended up the same way. And yes the other guy is right, the Noah contract alone is enough for a GM to get fired over.

R. Johnson#3
02-11-2017, 06:26 AM
For years he has brought in players who can't play defence to play alongside Melo who can't play defence.

Jeffy25
02-11-2017, 07:13 AM
Knicks fans :)

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 11:55 AM
Bad:
Tim Hardaway for jerian grant.
Although Hardaway didn't look like anything special at the time and knicks need pg help.

Chandler Felton for Calderon Dalembert Ellington Larkin Two second round picks
Didn't work although a decent gamble when you consider knicks lack of picks

Smith shumpert for junk and second round pick
Looks bad because Lebron was able to maximize talent and win championship. At the time most knicks fans didn't want jr anymore after his playoff collapse/antics.

Derek Fisher signing, melo no trade clause, Noah signing- Horrific decisions, still skeptical melo ntc was solely phils decision

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 11:57 AM
Neutral/Decent-
Rose trade was low risk gamble as was Jennings signing
Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee signings

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 12:00 PM
Fantastic-
KP
Wily
Oquinn
Kuz

Most importantly- Didn't trade any goddamn picks! See Brooklyn nets nightmare.

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 12:07 PM
Verdict- Incomplete Depends on what he can flip players other than Wily/KP for and who do knicks draft.
Notion that it's been an all out disaster or free agents now aren't gonna come here is the most ridiculous garbage. For comparison purposes to put things in perspective see Isiah Thomas, Jerome James/Eddy Curry transactions.

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 12:11 PM
If the Knicks get a lucky bounce and end up with Fultz/Ball, people will anoint Phil as the savior.

LOb0
02-11-2017, 12:23 PM
Bad:
Tim Hardaway for jerian grant.
Although Hardaway didn't look like anything special at the time and knicks need pg help.

Chandler Felton for Calderon Dalembert Ellington Larkin Two second round picks
Didn't work although a decent gamble when you consider knicks lack of picks

Smith shumpert for junk and second round pick
Looks bad because Lebron was able to maximize talent and win championship. At the time most knicks fans didn't want jr anymore after his playoff collapse/antics.

Derek Fisher signing, melo no trade clause, Noah signing- Horrific decisions, still skeptical melo ntc was solely phils decision


Glad someone remembers just how toxic JR was at the time. JR even said it was Cleveland's "Lack of night clubs" that helped him.

mike44
02-11-2017, 12:36 PM
He is in the east, has Carmelo and multiple teams have been tanking, there is no reason this team should miss the playoffs 4 straight years. They may end up with a high pick this year but that is simply because of his inability to build a competitive team.

mrblisterdundee
02-11-2017, 02:30 PM
The guy took over a team that wasn't very good, at the time JR Smith and Felton had negative value, he traded them to clean the decks, maybe could have got a bit more had he waited fine. But he got the Knicks the first young star in years in Porzingis, resigned Carmelo who he will trade for something rather than letting him walk for nothing.

The only move he's made I've truly hated was the Noah contract. So can someone explain why he's hated so badly? Do people really think you can just rebuild a team in a whim?

Jackson's only significant success has come in the draft. He's been good there with Porzingis and Hernangomez, but they've been overshadowed by all his errors on the free agent market and with Anthony:
Taking a second-round pick (Early, ex-NBA player) over Crowder in the Chandler-Felton deal.
Re-signing a 30-year-old Anthony to a mammoth contract with a no-trade clause, instead of letting him walk and committing to a rebuild.
Trading a useful center in Lopez and his cheap contract, along with a young prospect in Grant, for Rose, a one-dimensional, ball-hogging, broken-down star who can't shoot or play defense.
Signing Noah, an even more broken-down star with zero offense, for $18 million a season.
Add all that to his dimwitted management style, polarizing statements and insistence on an outdated offensive scheme New York has the wrong people to execute properly, and I don't see how you can view his tenure positively.

LOb0
02-11-2017, 02:59 PM
Jackson's only significant success has come in the draft. He's been good there with Porzingis and Hernangomez, but they've been overshadowed by all his errors on the free agent market and with Anthony:
Taking a second-round pick (Early, ex-NBA player) over Crowder in the Chandler-Felton deal.
Re-signing a 30-year-old Anthony to a mammoth contract with a no-trade clause, instead of letting him walk and committing to a rebuild.
Trading a useful center in Lopez and his cheap contract, along with a young prospect in Grant, for Rose, a one-dimensional, ball-hogging, broken-down star who can't shoot or play defense.
Signing Noah, an even more broken-down star with zero offense, for $18 million a season.
Add all that to his dimwitted management style, polarizing statements and insistence on an outdated offensive scheme New York has the wrong people to execute properly, and I don't see how you can view his tenure positively.

That Crowder thing was a good point. He was on the table. I'll defend the Melo thing. Anything he gets for him is better than letting him walk away for nothing. Lopez..yeah not good. But he took a gamble on Rose. Losing Lopez wasn't some disaster. The Noah signing was a tragedy.

Basically it was a whole bunch of poor smaller moves that have added up and that's where the hatred comes from. I still think the Knicks can be salvaged easily with a rebuild.

smith&wesson
02-11-2017, 03:29 PM
The guy took over a team that wasn't very good, at the time JR Smith and Felton had negative value, he traded them to clean the decks, maybe could have got a bit more had he waited fine. But he got the Knicks the first young star in years in Porzingis, resigned Carmelo who he will trade for something rather than letting him walk for nothing.

The only move he's made I've truly hated was the Noah contract. So can someone explain why he's hated so badly? Do people really think you can just rebuild a team in a whim?

Simple answer.. why is he attacking one of his players in public ?

Phil was respected. He has many championships, he was brought to the Knicks to bring a certain pedigree. Instead he has acted classless, childish, etc. The Knicks are in almost worst shape or no better than when Phil got there

Also.. Phil seemed to be able to get along with Dennis Rodman.. who, at the time no one could control. Kobe Bryant has been labeled the biggest ball hog and selfish player ever yet Phil coached him to many ships.

So what's the issue with Melo? Is he any more difficult to coach than Rodman? Ron Artest? I don't think so.. I think Phil just does that like Melo and thats pretty unprofessional. I work with people I don't like.. doesn't mean I have to feud with them.. especially in a leadership role. Phil has been disappointing.

He should have stuck to coaching considering he ties the hands of any coach he hires and makes them run the triangle. I can imagine Jeff Hornececk trying to teach the triangle. Lol if Fisher couldn't do it why would Hornececk be able to.

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 08:34 PM
That Crowder thing was a good point. He was on the table. I'll defend the Melo thing. Anything he gets for him is better than letting him walk away for nothing. Lopez..yeah not good. But he took a gamble on Rose. Losing Lopez wasn't some disaster. The Noah signing was a tragedy.

Basically it was a whole bunch of poor smaller moves that have added up and that's where the hatred comes from. I still think the Knicks can be salvaged easily with a rebuild.

Lopez- Not winning a championship because of him, rose was a low risk gamble. With Lopez or Noah, wily starts either way. So it's overpaid backup vs overpaid worse backup. Not ideal, but not a catastrophic failure. Crowder thing is unfortunate, I def agree. Courtney Lee is not a bad contract by any means. Still think there's more to Melo signing, Dolan/box office had to be a major factor.

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 08:40 PM
Lopez and Noah have near identical PERs 15.08 vs 15.13. NBA Math TPA has -11.86 Lopez vs 47.08 Noah. Basically a wash or even a Noah advantage.

nysportsfan23
02-11-2017, 08:44 PM
Worst thing about Noah vs Lopez is Noah gets paid 4 mil more a year and has another year on deal.

infernoscurse
02-12-2017, 08:29 AM
dont hate. hes just overrated and needs to go along with the owner and the entire team. Start fresh with a new culture.

mrblisterdundee
02-12-2017, 02:21 PM
That Crowder thing was a good point. He was on the table. I'll defend the Melo thing. Anything he gets for him is better than letting him walk away for nothing. Lopez..yeah not good. But he took a gamble on Rose. Losing Lopez wasn't some disaster. The Noah signing was a tragedy.

Basically it was a whole bunch of poor smaller moves that have added up and that's where the hatred comes from. I still think the Knicks can be salvaged easily with a rebuild.

Sure ... as long as Jackson doesn't get any "smart" ideas on the trade market, and Dolan doesn't get impatient and start to think he has any business making basketball decisions.

mike_noodles
02-12-2017, 03:33 PM
I really don't think anyone hates the Knicks do they? I think most people actually feel bad for the franchise, the league would be better if the Knicks were relevant. So therefore, most people don't like Phil because he didn't actually do anything to help the franchise to this point. The Knicks have been in turmoil forever and Phil's listed antics haven't helped.

KnicksorBust
02-12-2017, 09:25 PM
The guy took over a team that wasn't very good, at the time JR Smith and Felton had negative value, he traded them to clean the decks, maybe could have got a bit more had he waited fine. But he got the Knicks the first young star in years in Porzingis, resigned Carmelo who he will trade for something rather than letting him walk for nothing.

The only move he's made I've truly hated was the Noah contract. So can someone explain why he's hated so badly? Do people really think you can just rebuild a team in a whim?

Dude he was named President of Knicks 3 years ago. Makes an absurd $12 million dollars per year and his only claims of success are drafting 0x all-star Kristaps Porzingis and resigning a player already on the team. No playoff wins. No young core. Capped out. He already completely rebuilt the roster TWICE in 3 years and has hired two new coaches. Yet we are on the path to another lost season with no playoffs and are capped out. It is failure. Pure failure. No matter how much I personally like Porzingis there is no arguing the opposite.

king4day
02-12-2017, 09:51 PM
I'm not sure I'd even count KP as a positive. He was the no brainer in that draft.

Towns, Russel, Okafor, and KP were the consensus top 4. He was left with KP. Any GM would have taken him.

Forcing the triangle. Basically, he didn't want to coach, but wanted to implement his coaching strategy's. So he made a poor decision to hire Fisher. I will give him credit for attempting to bring in Kerr, but I don't think Kerr even saves what the Knicks became.

Re-signing Melo to a cap strangling (at the time) contract was debatable, but giving him a NTC was a big mistake.
The way he's handling trying to get rid of him is a joke as well.

Trading for Rose was fine.
Noah didn't make much sense though. I really believe these moves were because he knows he's going to leave this summer and wanted to get one last crack at it.

If he stays, then this draft will be a big determination on if he can begin to salvage the mess he created.

nysportsfan23
02-12-2017, 10:16 PM
No young core? Porzingis/Hernangomez, thanks

FlashBolt
02-13-2017, 04:52 PM
Why are you guys ignoring the fact that Phil gets paid like a superstar when he's made bad moves his entire stint with New York? Can you guys believe he offered Noah that much just so they can make Rose "happy"? What did they expect was going to happen? How many great trades have the Knicks made since Phil got there? He's fired Woodson for Fisher and Hornacek -- both who are terrible coaches. Hornacek was terrible even in Phoenix. What did Phil see in him? Oh, that's right, Phil just wants a soft coach he can bully. He's been bullying Carmelo and had bullied his former players as well. I live in NY. No one likes or defends Phil here. He's terrible and him and Dolan have got to go. This Knicks team will never win anything with those two running the show. The sad part is I feel bad for KP but you and I both know he's gone as soon as he can leave. There is no culture or system in this team. The money and fame will probably be good but you'll win as many rings as I will.