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View Full Version : Rudy Gay: Most likely out for season with torn Achilles



warfelg
01-19-2017, 09:32 AM
821957294548221952

MagicBucsSox
01-19-2017, 09:46 AM
Lmaooooo I'm so sick of this nobody being in the news constantly

Vinylman
01-19-2017, 09:53 AM
sacto is ****ED

He won't opt out now

LMFAO

warfelg
01-19-2017, 10:00 AM
sacto is ****ED

He won't opt out now

LMFAO

They're even more ****ed. Because they have not a whole lot worth trading to replace him, and we own swap rights with their pick.

And we might be one good move and a healthy #1 pick from making the playoffs.

Vinylman
01-19-2017, 10:14 AM
They're even more ****ed. Because they have not a whole lot worth trading to replace him, and we own swap rights with their pick.

And we might be one good move and a healthy #1 pick from making the playoffs.

careful dude... teams with players with glass feet shouldn't be laughing at teams like the Kings

Karma's a *****

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-19-2017, 11:54 AM
Well scratch off another piece that might of been moved this trade deadline. He could still be moved but a chance he may pick up his player option now like you all mentioned. I think that's why Miami wanted him this summer with Collison for Dragic. To clear cap. Then Bosh gets scratched off next season? That be some serious cap with Dragic and Bosh removed off of the books. Tank. Get high pick this draft and build around Whiteside and Winslow and one or two big free agents. Or could get lucky if Celtics offer up a godfather offer for Whiteside like a couple picks.

TheDish87
01-19-2017, 11:55 AM
sacto is ****ED

He won't opt out now

LMFAO

Wes Matthews got 17 mil after a season ending knee injury...

TheDish87
01-19-2017, 11:56 AM
as much as i dont like to cheer an injury of any player this is great news for the Sixers and our pick swap. Only 2 games behind the Kings to begin with and now its likely we finish better. Going to go down as one of the biggest robberies ever.

mrblisterdundee
01-19-2017, 11:59 AM
They're even more ****ed. Because they have not a whole lot worth trading to replace him, and we own swap rights with their pick.
And we might be one good move and a healthy #1 pick from making the playoffs.

Sacramento has a couple young bigs worth trading. Cauley-Stein has value as a guy who can defend all five positions and possibly develop into a starting-caliber rim protector, and he doesn't really fit with Cousins, who should play center.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-19-2017, 12:07 PM
Yeah I wouldn't count Kings out yet. They want playoffs. They could trade Skal or WCS or Papagiannis and also Koufos and Cassipi probably shopped yet. Possibly Collison. Kings are interested in Holiday or Rubio yet. Rockets wanted Koufos. McLemore was on the block as well then taken off.

tp13baby
01-19-2017, 12:34 PM
Yeah I wouldn't count Kings out yet. They want playoffs. They could trade Skal or WCS or Papagiannis and also Koufos and Cassipi probably shopped yet. Possibly Collison. Kings are interested in Holiday or Rubio yet. Rockets wanted Koufos. McLemore was on the block as well then taken off.

There 2-3 are terrible. Getting Rubio or Holiday won't do anything. Collison and Lawson have been much better than their 2-3 positions. How much is Papagiannis or WCS worth? If combined you are banking on a Cousins signing and if that for some reason doesn't happen the future would be worse than ever. Currently not a guy on the trade market at the 2-3 position that will replace Gay.

warfelg
01-19-2017, 12:50 PM
There 2-3 are terrible. Getting Rubio or Holiday won't do anything. Collison and Lawson have been much better than their 2-3 positions. How much is Papagiannis or WCS worth? If combined you are banking on a Cousins signing and if that for some reason doesn't happen the future would be worse than ever. Currently not a guy on the trade market at the 2-3 position that will replace Gay.

Not to mention the inability to trade a pick until 2021.

kdspurman
01-19-2017, 12:59 PM
Wes Matthews got 17 mil after a season ending knee injury...

Was gonna say the same... Anything's possible lol

LA4life24/8
01-19-2017, 01:03 PM
Didnt parsons get a monster deal after a pretty serious injury as well?

TheDish87
01-19-2017, 01:08 PM
yup

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
01-19-2017, 01:17 PM
We have Jeff green as a replacement for you 👀😀👀😒👀😶

GiantsSwaGG
01-19-2017, 01:34 PM
There 2-3 are terrible. Getting Rubio or Holiday won't do anything. Collison and Lawson have been much better than their 2-3 positions. How much is Papagiannis or WCS worth? If combined you are banking on a Cousins signing and if that for some reason doesn't happen the future would be worse than ever. Currently not a guy on the trade market at the 2-3 position that will replace Gay.

Derrick Rose & Lee for WCS, McLemore, Collison and a 2018 1st

Wade n Fade
01-19-2017, 02:46 PM
Feel bad for Gay since he suffered a huge injury during a contract year. However, I am content with the Heat not acquiring him because he's too much off a ball stopper. Good luck to him in the recovery process and hopefully he can join a team like the Suns or something like that.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-19-2017, 03:05 PM
Afflalo was a bit moody a few weeks back as well. Could see him shopped. Kings been linked to Dragic, Holiday, Rubio. Pretty much entire Kings roster is on the block other then Cousins since he will take the $207M next summer.

tp13baby
01-19-2017, 03:38 PM
Derrick Rose & Lee for WCS, McLemore, Collison and a 2018 1st

Rose and Lee don't have half that value. Just stop

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 04:06 PM
Derrick Rose & Lee for WCS, McLemore, Collison and a 2018 1st
The good part about trade idea like these is that they remind you who the homers are.

TrAv=MaGiCfReAk
01-19-2017, 04:34 PM
Isn't rose a FA? Making that trade idea even worse lol and the Knicks get a pick😂?!

GiantsSwaGG
01-19-2017, 04:49 PM
The good part about trade idea like these is that they remind you who the homers are.

Far from a homer dude... the pick was stretching it but Rose has been balling since he went awol. Can a man dream... damn!

Wade n Fade
01-19-2017, 04:49 PM
I like Dragic and McBob to Sac for Collision, a 2017 unprotected 1st, WCS/Skal, and a filler player.

warfelg
01-19-2017, 04:51 PM
I like Dragic and McBob to Sac for Collision, a 2017 unprotected 1st, WCS/Skal, and a filler player.

They can't trade their 2017 1st.

TheDish87
01-19-2017, 04:53 PM
yea youre not getting an unprotected first and a young, team controlled, cheap player for a 30 year old PG who makes 20 mil the next 4 years lol. Besides Kings cant trade their 17 first anyway til draft night

Wade n Fade
01-19-2017, 04:58 PM
They can't trade their 2017 1st.

They already traded a 2018 pick of because of the 2016 draft trade with Phoenix they can't move 2017? Then three team deal lol. Miami needs a lotto pick when trading Dragic.

Wade n Fade
01-19-2017, 05:00 PM
yea youre not getting an unprotected first and a young, team controlled, cheap player for a 30 year old PG who makes 20 mil the next 4 years lol. Besides Kings cant trade their 17 first anyway til draft night

Watch and see Dragic net a lotto pick, a young player, and a bad contract.

Teams are calling Riley up and he can wait to the deadline no problem. Plus James Johnson is a 2nd piece that can go in a trade to make that young cheap player become a part of a deal.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 05:02 PM
They already traded a 2018 pick of because of the 2016 draft trade with Phoenix they can't move 2017? Then three team deal lol. Miami needs a lotto pick when trading Dragic.

I will give Riley a standing ovation if he can get a lottery pick for Dragic.

warfelg
01-19-2017, 05:04 PM
They already traded a 2018 pick of because of the 2016 draft trade with Phoenix they can't move 2017? Then three team deal lol. Miami needs a lotto pick when trading Dragic.

Actually if Sacramentos pick is outside the top 10 in 2017 it goes to Chicago. If it's inside the top 10 the Sixers have the right to swap. And they can't trade their 2018 or 2020 because of the previous trade and the 2019 is unprotected owed to the Sixers.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 05:08 PM
Far from a homer dude... the pick was stretching it but Rose has been balling since he went awol. Can a man dream... damn!

With a small enough sample size you can make a case that any starter is balling. Mike Dunleavy has 20pts in 23 mins on 82℅ TS.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 05:11 PM
Actually if Sacramentos pick is outside the top 10 in 2017 it goes to Chicago. If it's inside the top 10 the Sixers have the right to swap. And they can't trade their 2018 or 2020 because of the previous trade and the 2019 is unprotected owed to the Sixers.

Wtf were they thinking.

GiantsSwaGG
01-19-2017, 05:12 PM
With a small enough sample size you can make a case that any starter is balling. Mike Dunleavy has 20pts in 23 mins on 82℅ TS.

But Dunleavy isn't averaging 18, 4 & 5 for the season. Again I'm just playing. A man can only hope and who knows the Kings might get desperate plus you get a 3 & D guy in Lee

Wade n Fade
01-19-2017, 05:20 PM
I will give Riley a standing ovation if he can get a lottery pick for Dragic.

George Hill got a lotto pick last year. The Magic could send Green, a potential lotto pick, and a young player for Dragic and James Johnson.

Miami could help NYK out if they sent Dragic, McBob for Rose, their pick this season, and Holiday.

GiantsSwaGG
01-19-2017, 05:25 PM
George Hill got a lotto pick last year. The Magic could send Green, a potential lotto pick, and a young player for Dragic and James Johnson.

Miami could help NYK out if they sent Dragic, McBob for Rose, their pick this season, and Holiday.

We're not trading our pick, Phil already told teams draft picks are off limits

TheDish87
01-19-2017, 05:27 PM
Watch and see Dragic net a lotto pick, a young player, and a bad contract.

Teams are calling Riley up and he can wait to the deadline no problem. Plus James Johnson is a 2nd piece that can go in a trade to make that young cheap player become a part of a deal.

ill be waiting like forever since it wont happen. You are crazy if you think Dragic with his age and salary can net that.

TheDish87
01-19-2017, 05:30 PM
Wtf were they thinking.

they really wanted Rondo and Koufos lol. Hinkie really took advantage of Vlade on that deal, it almost wasnt fair.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 05:49 PM
George Hill got a lotto pick last year. The Magic could send Green, a potential lotto pick, and a young player for Dragic and James Johnson.

Miami could help NYK out if they sent Dragic, McBob for Rose, their pick this season, and Holiday.

George Hill last year was better than Dragic, this year, on a friendly contract. And last year was a weak draft. GH has been a stud, this year. So i'm not really sure what you're getting at.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 05:56 PM
But Dunleavy isn't averaging 18, 4 & 5 for the season. Again I'm just playing. A man can only hope and who knows the Kings might get desperate plus you get a 3 & D guy in Lee

He's shooting 47.5℅ from 2 and 24.5℅ from 3. His ast:to ratio is under 2. Everything says he's mediocre. I could average 18ppg if I always had the ball and could call my own number as much as I wanted.

Wade n Fade
01-19-2017, 06:05 PM
George Hill last year was better than Dragic, this year, on a friendly contract. And last year was a weak draft. GH has been a stud, this year. So i'm not really sure what you're getting at.

Hill had this stat line: 12.1 PPG, 3.5 APG, 44.1% FG.

Goran: 14.1 PPG, 5.8 APG, 47.7% FG.

2015-2016 Dragic > 2015-2016 Hill.

Both are having good 2016/2017 campaigns. Goran is on a good contract for the 2016-2017 season and beyond relative to the household name going rate at PG during FA.

Mike Conley got a max. Would you take Conley at the max or Dragic on a 5 yr $85 mill deal? Considering how he was a late bloomer and attacks the paint well? Goran isn't a bad risk for a team to take on during a trade.

As for the first rounder, classes are up and down, but he definitely should go in a deal with Whiteside to land the most first rounders as possible.

kobe4thewinbang
01-19-2017, 06:16 PM
Rudy is still a baller. Can drop 30 any given night. Sucks he got injured as he was looking to change teams. I think his time is ending though. Hopefully he gets one more good deal. Heck he deserves it compared to the scrubs that got double-digit millions last summer.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 06:53 PM
Hill had this stat line: 12.1 PPG, 3.5 APG, 44.1% FG.

Goran: 14.1 PPG, 5.8 APG, 47.7% FG.

2015-2016 Dragic > 2015-2016 Hill.

Both are having good 2016/2017 campaigns. Goran is on a good contract for the 2016-2017 season and beyond relative to the household name going rate at PG during FA.

Mike Conley got a max. Would you take Conley at the max or Dragic on a 5 yr $85 mill deal? Considering how he was a late bloomer and attacks the paint well? Goran isn't a bad risk for a team to take on during a trade.

As for the first rounder, classes are up and down, but he definitely should go in a deal with Whiteside to land the most first rounders as possible.

....do you really think those are the numbers that matter in the boxscore?

Hill was the better 3pt shooter on more attempts, had a higher TS℅, higher ast:to ratio, better offensive efficiency AND defensive efficiency, and that doesn't get into anything particularly advanced. And he's cheaper. Lopsided deals happen because people still think PPG and FG℅ are relevant. They were outdated almost 40yrs ago the moment they put in the 3pt line.

Dragic is on the wrong side of 30, on a big contract he is underperforming. A lottery pick for him would be hitting the lottery.

warfelg
01-19-2017, 07:10 PM
....do you really think those are the numbers that matter in the boxscore?

Hill was the better 3pt shooter on more attempts, had a higher TS℅, higher ast:to ratio, better offensive efficiency AND defensive efficiency, and that doesn't get into anything particularly advanced. And he's cheaper. Lopsided deals happen because people still think PPG and FG℅ are relevant. They were outdated almost 40yrs ago the moment they put in the 3pt line.

Dragic is on the wrong side of 30, on a big contract he is underperforming. A lottery pick for him would be hitting the lottery.

I'm pretty sure Hills usage rate was much lower too.

IndyRealist
01-19-2017, 07:17 PM
I'm pretty sure Hills usage rate was much lower too.

Usage is neither a plus nor a minus, it just is. Usage curves, the idea that the less you shoot the higher your efficiency will be, is a myth. It's never been proven, and the source of the whole idea, Dean Oliver, readily admits he manipulated the data in excessive ways to get a curve. He threw out any data where a player took less shots and shot worse.

And Dragic only scored 2 more ppg than Hill. How many more shots did he need to get that? Exactly.

TheDish87
01-20-2017, 09:47 AM
Hill had this stat line: 12.1 PPG, 3.5 APG, 44.1% FG.

Goran: 14.1 PPG, 5.8 APG, 47.7% FG.

2015-2016 Dragic > 2015-2016 Hill.

Both are having good 2016/2017 campaigns. Goran is on a good contract for the 2016-2017 season and beyond relative to the household name going rate at PG during FA.

Mike Conley got a max. Would you take Conley at the max or Dragic on a 5 yr $85 mill deal? Considering how he was a late bloomer and attacks the paint well? Goran isn't a bad risk for a team to take on during a trade.

As for the first rounder, classes are up and down, but he definitely should go in a deal with Whiteside to land the most first rounders as possible.

statzzzz

Chronz
01-20-2017, 12:04 PM
statzzzz

where?

warfelg
01-20-2017, 12:10 PM
Usage is neither a plus nor a minus, it just is. Usage curves, the idea that the less you shoot the higher your efficiency will be, is a myth. It's never been proven, and the source of the whole idea, Dean Oliver, readily admits he manipulated the data in excessive ways to get a curve. He threw out any data where a player took less shots and shot worse.

And Dragic only scored 2 more ppg than Hill. How many more shots did he need to get that? Exactly.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but all I'm saying is referencing all that raw stats without usage is useless to me.

Either give me the advanced stats or give me the raw with usage if you want me to make a decision on who's better.

I mean everything on this page tells me what I need to know:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Goran+Dragic&player_id1_select=Goran+Dragic&player_id1=dragigo01&y1=2017&hint=George+Hill&player_id2_select=George+Hill&y2=2017&player_id2=hillge01

Hill is much much better.

Chronz
01-20-2017, 12:16 PM
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but all I'm saying is referencing all that raw stats without usage is useless to me.

Either give me the advanced stats or give me the raw with usage if you want me to make a decision on who's better.

I mean everything on this page tells me what I need to know:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Goran+Dragic&player_id1_select=Goran+Dragic&player_id1=dragigo01&y1=2017&hint=George+Hill&player_id2_select=George+Hill&y2=2017&player_id2=hillge01

Hill is much much better.

Dont listen to him, usage and role matter when projecting any sort of gain or decline in efficiency. Was anyone really surprised that KD's move to GS made him more efficient while simultaneously making Westbrooks job harder and forcing him into a lessened efficiency? Same thing when Harden became the man, he became less efficient with his increased workload. Usage was just the starting point since we didn't have all the tools we have now. Im sure theres a better correlation out there but its generally accepted an uptick in usage is usually the result of an enhanced workload. Its not perfect but you definitely shouldn't ignore it.

And yeah, Miami fans desperately want Dragic to be on Hill's level cuz it gives them hope of regaining some of the lost draft picks from his arrival, especially since it looks like they are gonna suck for awhile. Its just not a compelling argument, Hill has been WAY better forever now.

Vinylman
01-20-2017, 12:18 PM
Actually if Sacramentos pick is outside the top 10 in 2017 it goes to Chicago. If it's inside the top 10 the Sixers have the right to swap. And they can't trade their 2018 or 2020 because of the previous trade and the 2019 is unprotected owed to the Sixers.

you are getting bogged down in the details. as of right now they can trade their 2017 pick because it doesn't go to Chicago... philly swap rights are irrelevant because they would get Philly's pick... the septien rule only applies if you don't have any 1st round pick. The kings could theoretically get the 30th pick in the first round and satisfy the septien rule every year.

Vinylman
01-20-2017, 12:20 PM
Wes Matthews got 17 mil after a season ending knee injury...

Wes Matthews was a lot younger and BTW... how has that worked out :rolleyes:

warfelg
01-20-2017, 12:20 PM
you are getting bogged down in the details. as of right now they can trade their 2017 pick because it doesn't go to Chicago... philly swap rights are irrelevant because they would get Philly's pick... the septien rule only applies if you don't have any 1st round pick. The kings could theoretically get the 30th pick in the first round and satisfy the septien rule every year.

They would have to include us in the deal in order to alter the terms of the swap.

Vinylman
01-20-2017, 12:21 PM
Didnt parsons get a monster deal after a pretty serious injury as well?

No... a knee and an ruptured Achilles are apples and oranges... not to mention that parsons was significantly younger than Gay...

and BTW... how is that working out for Memphis :rolleyes:

TheDish87
01-20-2017, 12:27 PM
Wes Matthews was a lot younger and BTW... how has that worked out :rolleyes:

Wes got hurt at 29, Gay is 30...

its doesnt matter how it works out, thats besides the fact.

Vinylman
01-20-2017, 12:32 PM
They would have to include us in the deal in order to alter the terms of the swap.

they would have to take the swap contingency into consideration with the 3rd team but Philly wouldn't be part of the actual deal.... How was philly "in the deal" vis a vis Chicago if the pick was higher than 10? they weren't ... that's why it was just papered over saying that philly couldn't swap if the pick was 11-30...

they can paper over it the same way this year by saying if the pick is in the top 10 the new team gets the lower of the philly pick or the sacto pick... if the pick is over 10 the pick converts to a future pick which keeps moving out ... the last part is legal under the CBA because when a deal is made you won't have traded more than 2 future first round picks.

The above language is what the lakers did when they "theoretically" traded two firsts for nash and one for D12.. even though there was only technically 2 #1's traded at the time

Vinylman
01-20-2017, 12:35 PM
Wes got hurt at 29, Gay is 30...

its doesnt matter how it works out, thats besides the fact.

one... wes was 28 unless there is some new math (3/15)

more importantly Wes had no options... Gay does...

fwiw ... I am so confident gay will opt in that I will let you pick a wager you want

Wade n Fade
01-20-2017, 12:41 PM
http://www.thescore.com/news/1213022

So about Dragic not being worth anything? 1st rounder and Vucevic offer. Not like Hannigan is smart anyways.

LA4life24/8
01-20-2017, 01:07 PM
No... a knee and an ruptured Achilles are apples and oranges... not to mention that parsons was significantly younger than Gay...

and BTW... how is that working out for Memphis :rolleyes:

Well i was trying to contradict a point someone made about gay not getting a big deal after coming back from an injury, which IF he did opt out, i bet he still would, because so have other guys even if they are different injuries. My guess is that he opts in as well though and plays his *** off to try and get one more big deal

TheDish87
01-20-2017, 01:16 PM
one... wes was 28 unless there is some new math (3/15)

more importantly Wes had no options... Gay does...

fwiw ... I am so confident gay will opt in that I will let you pick a wager you want

simple mistake, still no real diff in 28 and 30. I have no idea nor could i care less if Gay opts-in or not. Simply pointed out that players have suffered similar severe injuries and still got paid big.

TheDish87
01-20-2017, 01:18 PM
http://www.thescore.com/news/1213022

So about Dragic not being worth anything? 1st rounder and Vucevic offer. Not like Hannigan is smart anyways.

no details on if there was any protection on it, which im sure there is/was/will be. also the Magic GM stinks.

Wade n Fade
01-20-2017, 01:29 PM
no details on if there was any protection on it, which im sure there is/was/will be. also the Magic GM stinks.

Maybe top 10 at most because there aren't many teams wanting Vucevic.

IndyRealist
01-20-2017, 01:35 PM
http://www.thescore.com/news/1213022

So about Dragic not being worth anything? 1st rounder and Vucevic offer. Not like Hannigan is smart anyways.

Who said he's not worth anything? I said he's not worth a lottery pick.

IndyRealist
01-20-2017, 01:45 PM
Dont listen to him, usage and role matter when projecting any sort of gain or decline in efficiency. Was anyone really surprised that KD's move to GS made him more efficient while simultaneously making Westbrooks job harder and forcing him into a lessened efficiency? Same thing when Harden became the man, he became less efficient with his increased workload. Usage was just the starting point since we didn't have all the tools we have now. Im sure theres a better correlation out there but its generally accepted an uptick in usage is usually the result of an enhanced workload. Its not perfect but you definitely shouldn't ignore it.

And yeah, Miami fans desperately want Dragic to be on Hill's level cuz it gives them hope of regaining some of the lost draft picks from his arrival, especially since it looks like they are gonna suck for awhile. Its just not a compelling argument, Hill has been WAY better forever now.

Usage curves are crap. Always have been, always will be.

Again, Dean Oliver, Basketball on Paper, p239

How much better do players seem to get if they use fewer possessions? If they seem to get worse when they use fewer possessions, I say, ĎThatís not right.í Itís just not a sustainable trend. Effectively, I force the curves to be declining. The details of how I do that would scare someone who doesnít know formal statistics. They would scare someone who did know formal statistics for different reasons

Chronz
01-20-2017, 04:13 PM
Usage curves are crap. Always have been, always will be.

Again, Dean Oliver, Basketball on Paper, p239
Not convinced. Seen other studies out there, have yet to find anything conclusive from either end . we've Seen plenty of examples and it's pretty well known a lesser workload helps your efficiency and that lessened workload is often witnessed in lower usage rates. Did harden magically lose all that efficiency? Did kd suddenly gain it? You have beef with usage curves but your nuts if you don't believe in any sort of efficiency trade-off based on their workload.

IndyRealist
01-20-2017, 04:53 PM
Not convinced. Seen other studies out there, have yet to find anything conclusive from either end . we've Seen plenty of examples and it's pretty well known a lesser workload helps your efficiency and that lessened workload is often witnessed in lower usage rates. Did harden magically lose all that efficiency? Did kd suddenly gain it? You have beef with usage curves but your nuts if you don't believe in any sort of efficiency trade-off based on their workload.

There was a case a couple of years ago, I want to say Melo but I'm not sure, where he came back on minutes restriction and his efficiency was well below his norm. He wasn't getting the normal volume of shots so he couldn't get into a rhythm. Jeremy Lin was pretty unremarkable as a 3rd string PG, but when he was put into major minutes his efficiency soared. And this whole usage argument here started with George Hill, who went from 15.8 usage last year to 24.4 this year, and his TS% went from 55.5% to 63.6%. If usage curves were true, all of those would not have happened.

Usage curves are crap. Some players get better with more attempts, some get worse. There is no curve that predicts it.

TheDish87
01-20-2017, 04:58 PM
There was a case a couple of years ago, I want to say Melo but I'm not sure, where he came back on minutes restriction and his efficiency was well below his norm. He wasn't getting the normal volume of shots so he couldn't get into a rhythm. Jeremy Lin was pretty unremarkable as a 3rd string PG, but when he was put into major minutes his efficiency soared. And this whole usage argument here started with George Hill, who went from 15.8 usage last year to 24.4 this year, and his TS% went from 55.5% to 63.6%. If usage curves were true, all of those would not have happened.

Usage curves are crap. Some players get better with more attempts, some get worse. There is no curve that predicts it.

this

warfelg
01-20-2017, 05:54 PM
There was a case a couple of years ago, I want to say Melo but I'm not sure, where he came back on minutes restriction and his efficiency was well below his norm. He wasn't getting the normal volume of shots so he couldn't get into a rhythm. Jeremy Lin was pretty unremarkable as a 3rd string PG, but when he was put into major minutes his efficiency soared. And this whole usage argument here started with George Hill, who went from 15.8 usage last year to 24.4 this year, and his TS% went from 55.5% to 63.6%. If usage curves were true, all of those would not have happened.

Usage curves are crap. Some players get better with more attempts, some get worse. There is no curve that predicts it.

FWIW I wasn't suggesting a usage% & efficiency correlation.

I was suggesting bulk stats built up through a higher usage rate. AKA you have the ball more you are more likely to put up stats.

IndyRealist
01-20-2017, 08:45 PM
FWIW I wasn't suggesting a usage% & efficiency correlation.

I was suggesting bulk stats built up through a higher usage rate. AKA you have the ball more you are more likely to put up stats.

I don't know why, but for whatever reason I misinterpret a lot of your posts. Sorry about that.

That's one of many reasons per game stats are useless, getting back to the original post I was responding to. It doesn't control for usage, it doesn't control for minutes. It gives no context at all to what happened. It's funny that stats-oriented guys like me get falsely criticized for ignoring context, simply because I come to a different conclusion than other people. Yet someone else quotes points per game like it matters, and everyone just agrees.

warfelg
01-20-2017, 08:49 PM
I don't know why, but for whatever reason I misinterpret a lot of your posts. Sorry about that.

That's one of many reasons per game stats are useless, getting back to the original post I was responding to. It doesn't control for usage, it doesn't control for minutes. It gives no context at all to what happened. It's funny that stats-oriented guys like me get falsely criticized for ignoring context, simply because I come to a different conclusion than other people. Yet someone else quotes points per game like it matters, and everyone just agrees.

Yea what you're saying is my exact thought too.

Like sure it sounds great for me to say Embiid is averaging 21 and 9 in his last 10 playing 28 minutes per game...but his usage is 35% so he should get those numbers lol.

warfelg
01-20-2017, 11:55 PM
they would have to take the swap contingency into consideration with the 3rd team but Philly wouldn't be part of the actual deal.... How was philly "in the deal" vis a vis Chicago if the pick was higher than 10? they weren't ... that's why it was just papered over saying that philly couldn't swap if the pick was 11-30...

they can paper over it the same way this year by saying if the pick is in the top 10 the new team gets the lower of the philly pick or the sacto pick... if the pick is over 10 the pick converts to a future pick which keeps moving out ... the last part is legal under the CBA because when a deal is made you won't have traded more than 2 future first round picks.

The above language is what the lakers did when they "theoretically" traded two firsts for nash and one for D12.. even though there was only technically 2 #1's traded at the time

Here's how it would have to be worded:
"The worse of Kings or Sixers pick, given that it is in the top 10"

We can swap their pick for ours as long as theirs is in the top ten. I'm still working on clarification, but I think that if we swap say our 11th for their 4th, the swap that sets them to 11 puts the pick into the Bulls hands.

Vinylman
01-23-2017, 01:38 PM
Here's how it would have to be worded:
"The worse of Kings or Sixers pick, given that it is in the top 10"

We can swap their pick for ours as long as theirs is in the top ten. I'm still working on clarification, but I think that if we swap say our 11th for their 4th, the swap that sets them to 11 puts the pick into the Bulls hands.

nah... Chicago's rights pertain only to the Sacto pick ... not yours if it is swapped like you state in the bolded. Chicago has nothing to do with the actual Philly pick.

5ass
01-23-2017, 01:49 PM
Somebody help me understand usage. I never was able to find clear definition or formula for the stat. From what I understand though its not a good reflection of how much you actually have the ball in your hands.

IndyRealist
01-23-2017, 07:59 PM
Somebody help me understand usage. I never was able to find clear definition or formula for the stat. From what I understand though its not a good reflection of how much you actually have the ball in your hands.

It's a measure of how many possessions you ended. 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)).