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mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 04:03 AM
The Latvian Unicorn is being held hostage by a roster full of has-beens being masqueraded as stars. Can you chart a reasonable course to free him into a bright and sunny future?

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 04:23 AM
I still think playing Porzingis more at center and Anthony at power forward would help, but New York should be willing to sell low for young players. If they want to trade Anthony for a decent package, they should also be willing to include their first-round pick in this year's draft. They're screwed with Noah, but at least Rose expires this summer.

More-Than-Most
01-13-2017, 04:45 AM
I told new york fans it was the dumbest move by far this off season trading for rose.... but not just because they got rose but because of what they gave up.... You dont bring on the worst defender in basketball and get rid of one of the better defenders in basketball on top of having bad defenders on your team across the board outside of porz and anthony when he actually tries to defend. They basically got rid of their best defensive player that was helping their unicorn grow.... now porz is trying to cover the perimeter and the paint all while having to watch guys blow past anthony and rose daily and cover for them as well which is ****ing killing him... they are quite literally wasting the ability to grow a guy with his potential... philly tried the same **** forcing embiid next to oka.... literally the knicks just NEED TO GET OUT OF THEIR OWN WAY..... Trade Melo and let rose walk... But I bet you they ****ing sign him long term lol.

Just get out of your own way... its that simple... get porz some inside help... let rose walk... draft in the lottery this year and trade melo.... Go out and sign some depth guys around porz.... this is the recipe for success.

PhillyFaninLA
01-13-2017, 04:48 AM
I didn't understand why they got Noah. Noah played his worse ball with Rose in Chicago (if you go through my post history you can see me talking about this after Rose's second injury).

You need to trade Rose, Melo, and Noah for whatever you can get. I'm not sure you can get to much from any of them. I'd trade everyone (for young value) except KP, and try and put better pieces around him.

The Knicks are where the Sixers where when the team sold, and the hired Hinkie. The Knicks are 6 - 10 seed in the East and without getting bad, they can't become great. The advantage the Knicks have, is they have KP to build around.

I didn't understand there offseason, even Rose at this point isn't Rose. If the Knicks can trade Melo, Rose, and Noah and come away with 2 or 3 decent to good young players and 2 (unprotected) first round picks in 2017, they can turn things around quicker if they draft the right guys.

Next year ride with a young team, see what they have, and who plays well together, then use a guy like KP and whoever you add that plays well with him, and try and sign 2 marquee free agents in 2018, and you have a 18 month rebuild/retool and you build around a potentially special piece

PhillyFaninLA
01-13-2017, 04:49 AM
I told new york fans it was the dumbest move by far this off season trading for rose.... but not just because they got rose but because of what they gave up.... You dont bring on the worst defender in basketball and get rid of one of the better defenders in basketball on top of having bad defenders on your team across the board outside of porz and anthony when he actually tries to defend. They basically got rid of their best defensive player that was helping their unicorn grow.... now porz is trying to cover the perimeter and the paint all while having to watch guys blow past anthony and rose daily and cover for them as well which is ****ing killing him... they are quite literally wasting the ability to grow a guy with his potential... philly tried the same **** forcing embiid next to oka.... literally the knicks just NEED TO GET OUT OF THEIR OWN WAY..... Trade Melo and let rose walk... But I bet you they ****ing sign him long term lol.

Just get out of your own way... its that simple... get porz some inside help... let rose walk... draft in the lottery this year and trade melo.... Go out and sign some depth guys around porz.... this is the recipe for success.

I don't agree, Rose wasn't the worst. Getting Noah, who always played worse with Rose on the court with him was worse and I didn't understand it from Noah's standpoint.

More-Than-Most
01-13-2017, 04:53 AM
It gets better... in the knicks forum they want wade... ****ING WHY? He shoots 16 times a game and is shooting 42 percent.. Why would you want yet another ****ing guy taking shots away from porz? you have that in melo.... GET OUT OF YOUR OWN WAY.

More-Than-Most
01-13-2017, 04:55 AM
I don't agree, Rose wasn't the worst. Getting Noah, who always played worse with Rose on the court with him was worse and I didn't understand it from Noah's standpoint.

i dont disagree at signing NOAH being horrid as well but at least they didnt give up **** to get him... Lopez makes their team so much better.. defense is so underrated esp interior defense and how much help he gave porz. Its like their front office didnt do their homework and look at what lopez/porz did for the defense when lopez entered the game... It was night and day.

PhillyFaninLA
01-13-2017, 07:14 AM
i dont disagree at signing NOAH being horrid as well but at least they didnt give up **** to get him... Lopez makes their team so much better.. defense is so underrated esp interior defense and how much help he gave porz. Its like their front office didnt do their homework and look at what lopez/porz did for the defense when lopez entered the game... It was night and day.

I stand by my point, but I also can't argue with any of this.

I wonder if people see Phil Jackson, he was so successful, look at all the rings....and aren't thinking, Phil Jackson, great coach, meh team president

ewing
01-13-2017, 07:18 AM
The one mistake NY is making is trying to follow the Dallas model in putting a goon next to KP. Yes the need some toughness next to him but KP, Noah, and Melo is just too slow a front line to defend. Gomez actually looks like the best fit at 5 skill set wise when the Knicks go big. KP should be manning the 5 more as well. As for Rose. He expires and leaves. Next thing you have to do is see if melo will accept a trade and if there is a market


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cmellofan15
01-13-2017, 07:23 AM
Reset to the beginning of last offseason

ewing
01-13-2017, 07:29 AM
I also think if they want have any hope of savaging anything this season they need a big time shake up. Mybe start KP at the 5 and go three guards with holiday in the lineup. **** start Jennings over Rose. Acting like nothing happened when guy making 20 mil doesn't show wasn't going to get the ship righted


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PhillyFaninLA
01-13-2017, 07:53 AM
I also think if they want have any hope of savaging anything this season they need a big time shake up. Mybe start KP at the 5 and go three guards with holiday in the lineup. **** start Jennings over Rose. Acting like nothing happened when guy making 20 mil doesn't show wasn't going to get the ship righted


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In all seriousness, is salvaging this season best long term for your team. The Knicks may be better off missing the playoffs and hoping to get lucky in the lottery. They don't have the pieces long term and sure they can make themselves a 6 - 8 seed year in and year out and be stuck there. They need to rethink there front office and take a slight step back (not like we (the Sixers) did, but a small one and have a bad year this year and next, then be potentially real good the following year.

uprightciti
01-13-2017, 07:55 AM
I would trade Noah to Portland for Turner then turn around and trade Lee for a big.

You have to keep a core of Melo, KP, Oquinn, Kuz, Rose, Willy, Lance and Jennings they might squeak into the playoffs but...I really doubt it.


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Giannis94
01-13-2017, 08:08 AM
Name President-elect Trump GM. It's a similar situation. Gotta Make the Knicms Great Again

Burkey3472
01-13-2017, 09:16 AM
They should have sold off all of their older assets (including Melo) last off season for younger assets (either picks or players) and tanked this season. Fans wouldn't have liked it but it would give them a high draft pick in a deep draft (maybe multiple depending on their deal for Melo) and a clean slate to build around KP.

ewing
01-13-2017, 10:02 AM
In all seriousness, is salvaging this season best long term for your team. The Knicks may be better off missing the playoffs and hoping to get lucky in the lottery. They don't have the pieces long term and sure they can make themselves a 6 - 8 seed year in and year out and be stuck there. They need to rethink there front office and take a slight step back (not like we (the Sixers) did, but a small one and have a bad year this year and next, then be potentially real good the following year.

You always try to win games. Doesn't mean you need to always make moves that up grade the roster but yes you try to win with what you have


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ewing
01-13-2017, 10:03 AM
They should have sold off all of their older assets (including Melo) last off season for younger assets (either picks or players) and tanked this season. Fans wouldn't have liked it but it would give them a high draft pick in a deep draft (maybe multiple depending on their deal for Melo) and a clean slate to build around KP.

Melo did not want to leave


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mudvayne387
01-13-2017, 10:12 AM
I know things are bad right now, but the future is still much brighter than it was 2 years ago.

Rose will be a F/A at the end of the season. Obviously after his latest stunt, he will be one and done in NY. Courtney Lee while under performing, does lead the league in 3pt %. His salary is far from hurting this team. Noah's contract looks (and is) bad but he is still not a bad presence to have on the team.

The biggest issue the Knicks face is what to do with Carmelo Anthony. After next season, he can opt out of his contract. I still think there are a few teams around the league that would be willing to pull the trigger on an Anthony trade, but the Knicks are going to have to be willing to sell low. Of course Anthony will also have to waive his NTC.

One trade that comes to mind is shipping him to Cleveland for Thompson and Frye plus picks. I know the rest of the league would probably be pissed, but sometimes you have to do what's best for your own team. Noah/Porzingis/Thompson could all rotate at the 5. It provides some flexibility especially with Noah being so fragile.

The Knicks also have all of their picks moving forward for the first time in years. So if they can manage to add a replacement for Rose in F/A (Teague/Hill) and draft well, then I think you will see an addition by subtraction type scenario.

ManRam
01-13-2017, 10:16 AM
I was told Phil would just tap his toes and everything would be great!


But yeah...it's gotta be a complete tear down and rebuild around Porzingis. Especially since they do have all their picks.

warfelg
01-13-2017, 10:18 AM
So I hate the Knicks, so it pains me to "help" them like this. But here's what they should do:

Step #1 - Fire Phil Zen I'm Only Here To Collect A Paycheck Jackson. Reports are he only showed up in his office 3 times in December. He's robbing you blind.

Step #2 - Bring in a two headed monster to run things. Monster #1 Troy Weaver. A contract and negotiation wizard. Currently the assistant GM in Oklahoma City. Monster #2.....Sam He Died For The Sixers Hinkie. So you got a guy that's a real contract and negotiator and a guy who's a real talent guy in charge.

Step #3 - 2017 NBA Trade Deadline:
~Trade Derrick Rose. Find a team that a combo of wanting a push for the playoffs and would need cap space. A team like the Kings with a base trade like:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=gljykrv
Include the 2017 2nd round pick from Chicago. This allows the Knicks to get a guy who is going to most likely bolt at the end of the season in Rudy Gay, but also gives them a center to put with Porzingas in WCS.

~Trade Carmelo Anthony. This one is much much harder. You have to convince him to give up his NTC to make this happen. I also though a little outside the box with this one:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=z93hw4k
This one sends out Carmelo, and brings back a starting SF for them. Two contracts that they can either cut, buy out, or just flip later. To make it work, bring in a third team to take Hibbert to make contracts balance out.

~Trade Courtney Lee. Send him to a contender that needs a bench shooter for a pick. Someone like Milwaukee for a top 15 protected pick.

Remainder of the year your lineup would be:
Jennings
MKG
Gay
Porzingas
Noah

Step #4 - 2017 NBA Draft
Currently the Knicks are in the 12 slot, but I bet the drop a bit (meaning better pick) and end up in 7-10 range. So draft Jonathan Isaac, who has the potential to be a great defensive player with shooting ability. Target Miles Bridges with the Milwaukee pick.

Step #5 - 2017 NBA Free Agency
Forget going after the big fish. You got cap space, a promising group (at this point) that includes Porzingas, MKG, WCS.
So try to bring in a guy like MCW on a cheap deal. Patrick Patterson would be a bench PF.

PhillyFaninLA
01-13-2017, 10:20 AM
You always try to win games. Doesn't mean you need to always make moves that up grade the roster but yes you try to win with what you have


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I agree 100% the coaches and players should always be trying to win and doing whatever it takes, but should the front office always do this, what is more important, trying to win long term and build a perennial winner/contender or trying to just make sure you can make the playoffs on any given year but have no real shot once you are in. You can be stuck a very very long time as a back end of the playoffs, one and done type team.

For the record I only apply the tear down and rebuild model to the NBA, the other sports you can be successful in being smart in piecing a team together.

One more question: Do you trust your front office?

Burkey3472
01-13-2017, 10:24 AM
Melo did not want to leave


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Was there a report that he would refuse to waive his no trade? I don't remember seeing that but I could be wrong. My guess is, if he were traded to a contender with a chance to win a title, he'd be ok with it.

Giannis94
01-13-2017, 10:27 AM
So I hate the Knicks, so it pains me to "help" them like this. But here's what they should do:

Step #1 - Fire Phil Zen I'm Only Here To Collect A Paycheck Jackson. Reports are he only showed up in his office 3 times in December. He's robbing you blind.

Step #2 - Bring in a two headed monster to run things. Monster #1 Troy Weaver. A contract and negotiation wizard. Currently the assistant GM in Oklahoma City. Monster #2.....Sam He Died For The Sixers Hinkie. So you got a guy that's a real contract and negotiator and a guy who's a real talent guy in charge.

Step #3 - 2017 NBA Trade Deadline:
~Trade Derrick Rose. Find a team that a combo of wanting a push for the playoffs and would need cap space. A team like the Kings with a base trade like:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=gljykrv
Include the 2017 2nd round pick from Chicago. This allows the Knicks to get a guy who is going to most likely bolt at the end of the season in Rudy Gay, but also gives them a center to put with Porzingas in WCS.

~Trade Carmelo Anthony. This one is much much harder. You have to convince him to give up his NTC to make this happen. I also though a little outside the box with this one:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=z93hw4k
This one sends out Carmelo, and brings back a starting SF for them. Two contracts that they can either cut, buy out, or just flip later. To make it work, bring in a third team to take Hibbert to make contracts balance out.

~Trade Courtney Lee. Send him to a contender that needs a bench shooter for a pick. Someone like Milwaukee for a top 15 protected pick.

Remainder of the year your lineup would be:
Jennings
MKG
Gay
Porzingas
Noah

Step #4 - 2017 NBA Draft
Currently the Knicks are in the 12 slot, but I bet the drop a bit (meaning better pick) and end up in 7-10 range. So draft Jonathan Isaac, who has the potential to be a great defensive player with shooting ability. Target Miles Bridges with the Milwaukee pick.

Step #5 - 2017 NBA Free Agency
Forget going after the big fish. You got cap space, a promising group (at this point) that includes Porzingas, MKG, WCS.
So try to bring in a guy like MCW on a cheap deal. Patrick Patterson would be a bench PF.

Have no interest in Lee. Much less for any kind of pick Horrendous contract, poor player and we have a guy doing what he does that we got with pick 36.

MJL80
01-13-2017, 10:38 AM
Start by getting rid of Phil Jackson and Rambis, and let Hornacek run his team.

And I'd trade Melo to a contender, and officially hand the team over to Porzingis... Best in the long run for all parties.

Hawkeye15
01-13-2017, 10:56 AM
Fire Phil

Next, ask Melo what teams he would consider a trade to, and see what you can get in return. If salary relief/young players coming back make sense, pull the trigger.

Do NOT extend Rose, even if it means hitting rock bottom for 1-2 years.

Collect as many picks as possible.

Anyone who thinks they should even attempt to compete right now is an idiot. They are in the worst place possible, with the lone exception of having one long term building block in place in KP. They need to clean house as fast as possible, and load up on assets as heavy as they can.

Rivera
01-13-2017, 11:15 AM
Fire Phil

Bring in Sam Heinke

Let him bully the league with trades again

New York will be back and in championship contention in 5-7 years

warfelg
01-13-2017, 11:22 AM
Have no interest in Lee. Much less for any kind of pick Horrendous contract, poor player and we have a guy doing what he does that we got with pick 36.

So you don't want a good shooter (leading the league in 3pt% IIRC) on an expiring contract, who plays good defense.

IndyRealist
01-13-2017, 11:31 AM
Start Kyle O'Quinn and have Noah come off the bench.

Trade Rose and a 1st round pick to Miami for Goran Dragic and James Johnson.

Trade Hernangomez and Brandon Jennings to Atlanta for Thabo Sefolosha and Mike Dunleavy.

Move Melo if he'll give up his no trade clause, but I wouldn't count on it.

Give the keys to Goran Dragic. Courtney Lee has previously played backup PG, and Dunleavy is a point forward, so having Baker be the primary backup PG should be ok. Sefolosha is a great defender and good in the midrange and cutting to the rim. O'Quinn is a banger and rim protector. Johnson is a stretch 4 who can defend and shoot.

PG: Dragic/Baker
SG: Sefolosha/Lee
SF: Melo/Dunleavy
PF: KP/Johnson
C: O'Quinn/Noah

ewing
01-13-2017, 11:36 AM
So I hate the Knicks, so it pains me to "help" them like this. But here's what they should do:

Step #1 - Fire Phil Zen I'm Only Here To Collect A Paycheck Jackson. Reports are he only showed up in his office 3 times in December. He's robbing you blind.

Step #2 - Bring in a two headed monster to run things. Monster #1 Troy Weaver. A contract and negotiation wizard. Currently the assistant GM in Oklahoma City. Monster #2.....Sam He Died For The Sixers Hinkie. So you got a guy that's a real contract and negotiator and a guy who's a real talent guy in charge.

Step #3 - 2017 NBA Trade Deadline:
~Trade Derrick Rose. Find a team that a combo of wanting a push for the playoffs and would need cap space. A team like the Kings with a base trade like:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=gljykrv
Include the 2017 2nd round pick from Chicago. This allows the Knicks to get a guy who is going to most likely bolt at the end of the season in Rudy Gay, but also gives them a center to put with Porzingas in WCS.

~Trade Carmelo Anthony. This one is much much harder. You have to convince him to give up his NTC to make this happen. I also though a little outside the box with this one:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=z93hw4k
This one sends out Carmelo, and brings back a starting SF for them. Two contracts that they can either cut, buy out, or just flip later. To make it work, bring in a third team to take Hibbert to make contracts balance out.

~Trade Courtney Lee. Send him to a contender that needs a bench shooter for a pick. Someone like Milwaukee for a top 15 protected pick.

Remainder of the year your lineup would be:
Jennings
MKG
Gay
Porzingas
Noah

Step #4 - 2017 NBA Draft
Currently the Knicks are in the 12 slot, but I bet the drop a bit (meaning better pick) and end up in 7-10 range. So draft Jonathan Isaac, who has the potential to be a great defensive player with shooting ability. Target Miles Bridges with the Milwaukee pick.

Step #5 - 2017 NBA Free Agency
Forget going after the big fish. You got cap space, a promising group (at this point) that includes Porzingas, MKG, WCS.
So try to bring in a guy like MCW on a cheap deal. Patrick Patterson would be a bench PF.

While I find calling Hinkie a "talent guy" ironic I actually like your moves. Others teams would have too agree but....


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Giannis94
01-13-2017, 11:38 AM
Hire GarPax and Hoiberg from chicago.

Giannis94
01-13-2017, 11:39 AM
So you don't want a good shooter (leading the league in 3pt% IIRC) on an expiring contract, who plays good defense.
?
http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/courtney-lee-6144/

IndyRealist
01-13-2017, 11:45 AM
So you don't want a good shooter (leading the league in 3pt% IIRC) on an expiring contract, who plays good defense.

Not on an expiring contract, but I'll take Lee on the Pacers for a 2017 protected 1st (that turns into 2 2nds if not conveyed) if they'll take Monta Ellis too.

warfelg
01-13-2017, 12:06 PM
Not on an expiring contract, but I'll take Lee on the Pacers for a 2017 protected 1st (that turns into 2 2nds if not conveyed) if they'll take Monta Ellis too.

Yea I was mislead by a knicks fan on reddit, and considering i'm at work i'm too lazy to actually look it up. But that contract isn't bad. $11-$12 mil in an era where Evan Turner got almost $20 mil is a freaking steal.

Giannis94
01-13-2017, 12:20 PM
Yea I was mislead by a knicks fan on reddit, and considering i'm at work i'm too lazy to actually look it up. But that contract isn't bad. $11-$12 mil in an era where Evan Turner got almost $20 mil is a freaking steal.

From the Bucks perspective, we already have enough average/sbad contracts. Moose @ 17.3 next year, but he has actually found a nice role as our 6th man. Delly isn't terrible because of the fact it meant that MCW was gone. Telly is what it is, fills a need.

Henson and Plumlee- dear god.

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 12:44 PM
I would trade Noah to Portland for Turner then turn around and trade Lee for a big.

You have to keep a core of Melo, KP, Oquinn, Kuz, Rose, Willy, Lance and Jennings they might squeak into the playoffs but...I really doubt it.


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Noah for Turner is one of the few trades Portland would badly lose, even if Turner can't shoot and is a backup making $17.5 million a year. He's not going to stay healthy, and he has zero offense. He's New York's problem.

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 12:52 PM
I wonder if the Thunder would have any interest in Anthony maybe for Kanter and Abrines? Kanter probably plays worse defense than Anthony, but is young and highly efficient on offense. Abrines could develop into a solid role player given the playing time. Oklahoma can get out from under Kanter. Anthony might do well playing power forward next to a defensive ace like Adams, if they want to develop Sabonis more slowly.

Giannis94
01-13-2017, 12:54 PM
I wonder if the Thunder would have any interest in Anthony maybe for Kanter and Abrines? Kanter probably plays worse defense than Anthony, but is young and highly efficient on offense. Abrines could develop into a solid role player given the playing time. Oklahoma can get out from under Kanter. Anthony might do well playing power forward next to a defensive ace like Adams, if they want to develop Sabonis more slowly.

Not sure how he would par with Westy? He would have to adjust his game a little bit

JAZZNC
01-13-2017, 01:23 PM
I wouldn't. There is no reason New York has to be good....and news flash they haven't ever really been good.

teddygreen17
01-13-2017, 01:33 PM
You can't.
Noah 3 more years.
Melo - a 6th man - wont waive NTC
KP poor man on man D

But Knicks need to find a way to remove everyone except, Willy, KP and Holiday and start from scratch.
.....they wont (right away). I think Phil wants to, be put himself into a corner because Melo signed before KP was here. But after melo's contract, players need to get to packin.

shep33
01-13-2017, 01:57 PM
Rose isn't the problem. I think the trade was a bad one because essentially you could've still had Lopez who is better and cheaper than Noah.

Love me some Melo, but they need to trade him and press reset

effen5
01-13-2017, 02:38 PM
Rose isn't the problem. I think the trade was a bad one because essentially you could've still had Lopez who is better and cheaper than Noah.

Love me some Melo, but they need to trade him and press reset

While the Bulls themselves are a ****ing mess, I can honestly say we won that trade.

Avenged
01-13-2017, 02:45 PM
Name President-elect Trump GM. It's a similar situation. Gotta Make the Knicms Great Again

Not even Sir Donald Trump can save them now. It's time to blow that team up let Porz fully develop and acquire talent through the draft.

The Melo experiment was a failure, let's admit that first, and go from there. Time to rebuild and FINALLY get this right.

Chronz
01-13-2017, 03:32 PM
People keep bringing up Rose's expiring contract but remember what Phil did with cap space last time? What if he just signs another Noah? They should have tanked this year to find a long term replacement at PG. Now they are not making the playoffs AND not getting a lotto pick. How can things be any worse?

Definitely should follow the Hinkie blue print. Hire that guy and then kick him out once you have everything in place necessary to start winning

Dade County
01-13-2017, 03:45 PM
Reset to the beginning of last offseason

lol


They should trade Melo to a team that he would waive his no trade clause. Do NOT re-sign Rose, trade the **** out of Noah.


PK is the team. Tank for the next 2 season, and going into that 3rd season they should be able to challenge a declining Lbj.

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 04:18 PM
Not sure how he would par with Westy? He would have to adjust his game a little bit

I figure he'd be another mouth for Westbrook to feed. Anthony could still be No. 2 option after Westbrook and before Oladipo. I'd play him at power forward, with Roberson still starting at small forward. If they need more defense, maybe bench Anthony and replace him with Lauvergne or even Grant.
The presence of Anthony can help the Thunder more slowly develop their young guys like Sabonis, Roberson, Lauvergne and grant. And if he plays power forward and knows his role behind Westbrook, he can be a positive force.

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 04:29 PM
They should have tanked this year to find a long term replacement at PG. Now they are not making the playoffs AND not getting a lotto pick. How can things be any worse?
Definitely should follow the Hinkie blue print. Hire that guy and then kick him out once you have everything in place necessary to start winning

The Knicks still have their own first-round pick, so how do you know they're not going to be in the lottery? As they've shown recently, things can get much worse. Hopefully they do, so New York has a better chance of getting into the lottery.
That definitely seems like a good plan, trying to draft a starting point guard. And this is the draft to do it in.
Hinkie did an alright job assembling talent, but most of his choices seemed to be obvious ones. It wasn't so obvious to take Porzingis above a lot of other good prospects, including Dunn, but it seems like Steve Mills and Co. made a good choice. Porzingis is the process.

GiantsSwaGG
01-13-2017, 04:51 PM
Noah actually playing well of late and Rose since his brain fart is playing well. Hopefully both guys raise their trade value

GiantsSwaGG
01-13-2017, 04:56 PM
People keep bringing up Rose's expiring contract but remember what Phil did with cap space last time? What if he just signs another Noah? They should have tanked this year to find a long term replacement at PG. Now they are not making the playoffs AND not getting a lotto pick. How can things be any worse?

Definitely should follow the Hinkie blue print. Hire that guy and then kick him out once you have everything in place necessary to start winning

We have our pick this year and beyond, Melo's ego won't let him waive his no trade clause. He has 2 yrs left (I'm praying he'll come to his senses and waive his no trade clause) but hopefully we'll turn him into a 6th or move him to the 4 permanently. I doubt we'll resign Rose, hopefully he'll raise his trade value so we can trade him at the deadline.

Chronz
01-13-2017, 05:17 PM
The Knicks still have their own first-round pick, so how do you know they're not going to be in the lottery? As they've shown recently, things can get much worse. Hopefully they do, so New York has a better chance of getting into the lottery.
That definitely seems like a good plan, trying to draft a starting point guard. And this is the draft to do it in.
Hinkie did an alright job assembling talent, but most of his choices seemed to be obvious ones. It wasn't so obvious to take Porzingis above a lot of other good prospects, including Dunn, but it seems like Steve Mills and Co. made a good choice. Porzingis is the process.

Unless they blow it up, I just cant envision NY being bad enough to get an early lotto pick necessary to draft the Porzingis of PG's. He and Ball would be a very tantalizing duo.

Then again, it could get much worse, I honestly dont know how they've managed to win as much as they have looking at their talent but alot of teams are way ahead of them in the losses department.

europagnpilgrim
01-13-2017, 05:20 PM
First off NY doesn't need to be saved as far as financial reasons

second for basketball reasons they went off the deep end when they gave up way too much of the team to acquire Melo and didn't wait just months later to get him in free agency because I assume he would have come there with open arms and the Knicks would have been able to sign him with the deep pockets they have, a salary cap doesn't matter in NY, it is just used to make it seem like they want to play fair but it Is not a issue at all being the financial capitol of the entire world pretty much on this side of the continent trailing the heart of Africa, its called the big apple for a reason

if I were the Knicks I would build around Melo(by default/being stuck) and that Porz guy, let Rose walk and try to entice a bigman needing team to trade for Noah

the Knicks whiffed on the draft pretty bad because I think they could have traded up to get Curry or someone of that caliber and didn't, now they have Porz but he is not fit to bang down low and play the 5 spot at this current stage being so young, its taxing on the body, same with Melo playing the 4 spot, it wears you down which is the reason for his recent injuries/surgery


They should have kept Lopez to have more of a traditional lineup and tried to get Rose this offseason along with snipers around them like a Korver and whatever Euro guy can let it fly from deep


if Melo doesn't wave his no trade then he is basically there until his contract is up and you might as well try and do something from a bball standpoint, but rather they win or lose the Garden will remain packed and the media will have a field day and seeing that Dolan has a bad rep its probably safe to say they will remain the bad talk of the media and make moves that are counter productive

IndyRealist
01-13-2017, 06:38 PM
We have our pick this year and beyond, Melo's WIFE won't let him waive his no trade clause. He has 2 yrs left (I'm praying he'll come to his senses and waive his no trade clause) but hopefully we'll turn him into a 6th or move him to the 4 permanently. I doubt we'll resign Rose, hopefully he'll raise his trade value so we can trade him at the deadline.

Fixed.

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 11:30 PM
Unless they blow it up, I just cant envision NY being bad enough to get an early lotto pick necessary to draft the Porzingis of PG's. He and Ball would be a very tantalizing duo.

Then again, it could get much worse, I honestly dont know how they've managed to win as much as they have looking at their talent but alot of teams are way ahead of them in the losses department.

What would it take to get Smart? Could New York's pick and O'Quinn do it? Could you trade him straight-up for Smart?
The Celtics have a top pick and a ton of talented point guards. They'll still probably draft another point guard, and still need another big man. O'Quinn, 26, is a bigger, better version of Johnson, 29, and is locked up for 2.5 seasons at less than $4 million a year. He can step right into center next to Horford. Boston would also get another decent first-round pick for a trade or another big man, if O'Quinn isn't seen as enough.
Smart, 22, is a horrid shooter, but great on defense and rebounding. He averages about 12 points, five assists and five rebounds per game off the bench and at multiple positions. Make him a shooting guard next to Rose. Start him at point guard once Rose is gone. Have him defend the best opposing guard or wing on a nightly basis.

Pistol_Pete
01-14-2017, 03:17 AM
We've been having this conversation for nearly 20 years. I honestly don't know if you can save the Knicks under current ownership. For years management has been saying "fans won't tolerate losing, we need stars!" and go out and overpay past-prime stars...and lose.

Gut the team. You can probably keep Porzingas, but if you can get an amazing deal, I would make him available. If you can someone trade Melo, KP and others for let's say, Anthony Davis, do it. If you're going to make trades, you need young players, not young-ish players. You need to completely restart. They need a young star to build around because they're going to take a while to become a contender. Get a good star or two. Build a good supporting cast of defensive specialists, 3 point shooters, etc., and draft under the radar defensive minded hustle players. At some point they just have to blow it up and start over.

Get Phil out.

Bring in a coach who doesn't mind being a mentor. Have them mentor a guy like Patrick Ewing to hopefully take over as head coach. Bringing in a legend, and molding him him with a star coach would be great for the franchise.

Get involved in all star weekend. The Knicks, as a major city team should have representative there. It's superficial, but it helps make the team look a little better.

kobe4thewinbang
01-15-2017, 12:10 AM
Porzingis is the next Dirk. Dallas won a 'chip with shooters, speed and a shot blocker around Dirk. Porzingis is a bit hungrier than Dirk on defense, so that helps, but it's a pretty simple solution. But now they have:

Carmelo (never really been a great shooter, not a playmaker)
Rose (not a good shooter, not really a playmaker)
Noah (old, washed-up, not much of a defender, no Tyson Chandler)

So yeah they need some bonafide shooters and a defensive big. Trade Carmelo already! They need a defensive minded coach that also knows scoring is important, not this Hornacek guy. They need a Barea type of point guard, a clutch guy like Jason Terry, some good wing players...

It won't be as hard cuz they're in the east, but it's time for the Knicks to be good again. Carmelo can go without winning a title, but if Porzingis does that would be a shame. Kid is gifted.

JasonJohnHorn
01-16-2017, 10:18 AM
Saving this team requires time travel.

Legitimate
01-16-2017, 02:10 PM
Saving this team requires time travel.

Yes!

ewing
01-16-2017, 08:08 PM
Project mayhem


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kyomack
01-16-2017, 08:32 PM
The only way this team gets better, is by getting rid of two people, Phil Jackson and Melo.
The only value Phil Jackson has, is as a coach. These players do not want to run his triangle, if he wants the Knicks to run it so bad, he should coach it himself. He has assembled a team with no chemistry, doesn't speak to the media, gave Melo a no trade clause, and his ONLY good move was drafting Porzingas, which the pick fell into his lap. Since Melo has been here he has been the one constant in the Knicks being so bad for years now. New players, GM's, coaches, but one thing remains the same, and that is Melo. He is checking himself out of games this year, complaining about playing back to back nights, not playing through minor injury so he can take off a game he doesn't think the knicks will win, and getting thrown out (3 times already) of games. He is not a leader and this team will never win a playoff series as long as he is here

Shlumpledink
01-16-2017, 08:47 PM
Get rid of Phil Jackson

teddygreen17
01-16-2017, 09:01 PM
1. Bench rose, play Baker at pg until he can't breathe. We need to get him learning asap.
2. Trade Lee and Jennings for 4 2nd rounds picks
3. Leave Noah alone, if anything give him a couple days off - he's played hurt. he's getting healthier and playing better.
4. Trade Melo for anything, expiring contacts and back end 1st hopefully.
5. Build around KP with winning type players, who take pride in playing MAN on MAN defense.
6. Leave Coach Hornacek alone. Dude is a good coach but franchise is crumbing around this guy.

Quinnsanity
01-16-2017, 11:31 PM
I'm reposting this but **** it:

You know I've been thinking about it, and the idea of trading him to the Clippers is actually kind of appealing. They've traded their 2017 and 2019 first round picks, which means their first available pick in a trade is their 2021 pick. By then Chris Paul will be retired and Blake and DeAndre will be well past their primes. They'll have none of their own picks to replenish, won't have anything but the LA Market to pitch FA's, and knowing Doc he'll turn tail and ditch before things get to that point. That could be a REALLY valuable pick. Maybe we could make a deal with them like the Celtics-Nets deal where we give them Melo basically for matching contracts so they can compete now (idk, something like Crawford and Wesley Johnson), but we get that 2021 pick and swap rights in 2020 and 2022.

Those Clipper picks are going to become really valuable in a few years. I don't think Phil has the foresight to make a deal like that, but it could be a franchise altering move if things pan out as they easily could. We constantly praise the Celtics for making that sort of trade, and they were in a pretty similar situation to us now (though they didn't have a youngster like KP). I'm just not sure why we keep hearing and saying that if a Clippers trade is going to work we have to get Blake. Why not load up on future assets. We could build slowly and then have those picks as trade chips when KP is in his prime.

TL;DR: Clips future picks could become really valuable, why not try for a Celts/Nets style trade?

nicnac
01-16-2017, 11:57 PM
What would it take to get Smart? Could New York's pick and O'Quinn do it? Could you trade him straight-up for Smart?
The Celtics have a top pick and a ton of talented point guards. They'll still probably draft another point guard, and still need another big man. O'Quinn, 26, is a bigger, better version of Johnson, 29, and is locked up for 2.5 seasons at less than $4 million a year. He can step right into center next to Horford. Boston would also get another decent first-round pick for a trade or another big man, if O'Quinn isn't seen as enough.
Smart, 22, is a horrid shooter, but great on defense and rebounding. He averages about 12 points, five assists and five rebounds per game off the bench and at multiple positions. Make him a shooting guard next to Rose. Start him at point guard once Rose is gone. Have him defend the best opposing guard or wing on a nightly basis.
Hahaha. How long will a horid shooting guard last in ny? The fans would kill him. Again. Other teams players superior to our own, even a horid shooter. Lol lol

da ThRONe
01-17-2017, 07:35 AM
I assume this question means Jackson is already gone as that would be step 1 in fixing the Knicks. Next would be trying to convince Anthony to wave his NTC and to accept a trade to a team he can take to the next level, but that can handle his salary. Which wouldn't be easy. Carmelo seems like he cares more about remaining in the New York market than winning basketball games.

ManRam
01-17-2017, 12:19 PM
Resisting all the urges in the world to bump those old threads when Phil agreed to go to NYK. My god some of you were so, so, so wrong. I don't get why anyone thought he was such a sure bet to turn things around.

GodsSon
01-17-2017, 12:32 PM
Knicks need to trade Rose, Noah and Melo for any picks/young players they can get. Give the keys to the franchise to Porzingis, suck for a few years and stockpile high-end lottery picks hoping 1-2 of them connect.

That's literally the only way to turn it around.

Quinnsanity
01-17-2017, 03:39 PM
It would take multiple first round picks to convince someone to take on Noah's contract. It's the worst in the league.

AI
01-17-2017, 04:58 PM
It would take multiple first round picks to convince someone to take on Noah's contract. It's the worst in the league.

He's been playing better as of late. Knicks could keep Noah and still blow it up. Not a bad locker-room presence to have around a young team, which the Knicks will have if they decide to blow things up.

Quinnsanity
01-17-2017, 05:04 PM
He's been playing better as of late. Knicks could keep Noah and still blow it up. Not a bad locker-room presence to have around a young team, which the Knicks will have if they decide to blow things up.

Yea I'm fine with keeping him on the roster. I'm just saying no one would willingly take on that contract.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
01-17-2017, 05:32 PM
I'm reposting this but **** it:

You know I've been thinking about it, and the idea of trading him to the Clippers is actually kind of appealing. They've traded their 2017 and 2019 first round picks, which means their first available pick in a trade is their 2021 pick. By then Chris Paul will be retired and Blake and DeAndre will be well past their primes. They'll have none of their own picks to replenish, won't have anything but the LA Market to pitch FA's, and knowing Doc he'll turn tail and ditch before things get to that point. That could be a REALLY valuable pick. Maybe we could make a deal with them like the Celtics-Nets deal where we give them Melo basically for matching contracts so they can compete now (idk, something like Crawford and Wesley Johnson), but we get that 2021 pick and swap rights in 2020 and 2022.

Those Clipper picks are going to become really valuable in a few years. I don't think Phil has the foresight to make a deal like that, but it could be a franchise altering move if things pan out as they easily could. We constantly praise the Celtics for making that sort of trade, and they were in a pretty similar situation to us now (though they didn't have a youngster like KP). I'm just not sure why we keep hearing and saying that if a Clippers trade is going to work we have to get Blake. Why not load up on future assets. We could build slowly and then have those picks as trade chips when KP is in his prime.

TL;DR: Clips future picks could become really valuable, why not try for a Celts/Nets style trade?

I think the Celtics/Nets trade is something that won't ever be done again. I think Doc (and the vast majority of other GMs around the league) is smart enough to not trade draft picks more than three years in the future without protections.

I honestly think Melo might be untradeable until the summer of 2018. Melo seems to only what to waive his NTC to teams that wouldn't make a good fit.

Quinnsanity
01-17-2017, 07:12 PM
I think the Celtics/Nets trade is something that won't ever be done again. I think Doc (and the vast majority of other GMs around the league) is smart enough to not trade draft picks more than three years in the future without protections.

I honestly think Melo might be untradeable until the summer of 2018. Melo seems to only what to waive his NTC to teams that wouldn't make a good fit.

You're assuming Doc would stay with the Clippers through the bad times. You're a Celtics fan. You know he won't. Wouldn't it be SUCH a Doc move for him to mortgage the future to get Melo, try to win a title over the next three years or so, and then leave the Clippers screwed for the future? That's EXACTLY what Doc would do.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
01-17-2017, 09:49 PM
You're assuming Doc would stay with the Clippers through the bad times. You're a Celtics fan. You know he won't. Wouldn't it be SUCH a Doc move for him to mortgage the future to get Melo, try to win a title over the next three years or so, and then leave the Clippers screwed for the future? That's EXACTLY what Doc would do.

There's really nothing in his history that suggests he would make this deal because this is the first time he's ever ran a team before lol. Like I said earlier, if they'e going to trade picks that far in the future there's going to be protections on them. The Celtics/Nets trade is the reason as to why teams won't trade unprotected picks for anymore.

Quinnsanity
01-18-2017, 02:30 AM
There's really nothing in his history that suggests he would make this deal because this is the first time he's ever ran a team before lol. Like I said earlier, if they'e going to trade picks that far in the future there's going to be protections on them. The Celtics/Nets trade is the reason as to why teams won't trade unprotected picks for anymore.

Doc has never been a GM before, but he has ditched an old team that was about to rebuild for a younger one before. He would absolutely do it again if the Clips showed any signs of falling off, which they eventually will, Melo trade or not. Hell, he could easily go back to TV. He was great there.

The trade doesn't work with protections, and frankly I think Doc would blink before the Knicks would. I think Doc knows he's not going to be there when those picks eventually come up, so he won't mind trading them without protections (though obviously he'll start negotiations INTENDING to protect them). Like if you're Doc, why do you care about protecting those picks if you're not gonna be there (which is my assumption obviously, not fact)? Why not just say "I'm here for three or four more years and I'll do everything in my power to win the title in that frame, future be damned?" What's the downside for Doc specifically?

Maybe Balmer would veto that trade, but I doubt it. He seems to have complete faith in Doc, and it's in Doc's best interests to get Melo now and compete while the rest of this team is in its prime. There's no reason for the Knicks to make this trade for protected picks. They just aren't valuable enough. As much as I want him off the team, and as much as Phil seems to want him off the team, if all you can get are protected picks then at that point you just try to make 'Melo's life miserable so that he'll accept a trade somewhere else where there's more value. Treat him like they did Marbury near the end, just don't play him.

Ultimately I just don't think Doc cares enough to put protections on those picks because I doubt he'll be there. The only downside for him is reputation. It looks bad giving up unprotected picks that turn out to be near the top of the draft, and I doubt he'd want to be associated with a trade like that if one of those picks turned into a star. But I think the desire to win a title with these Clippers far outweighs that risk, and Melo is the best chance he'd have to do that.

And frankly, as much crap as they get, the Clippers aren't THAT far away. On a purely philosophical level, if a team that close has a chance to add a star without giving up a starter... shouldn't they do it, future be damned? If they win a title, isn't that worth the years of losing afterwards? I know a title is far from guaranteed, but I think when you're that close you just have to go for it. You can't leave moves like that on the table. How many teams throughout history were one player away and wish they would've gone all in like this?

Bosston
01-18-2017, 11:44 AM
Resisting all the urges in the world to bump those old threads when Phil agreed to go to NYK. My god some of you were so, so, so wrong. I don't get why anyone thought he was such a sure bet to turn things around.

People think that Phil Jackson is a genius and was an amazing coach... he's neither. He had Jordan and Kobe / Shaq. A pop tart would have won championships with those teams.

LongIslandIcedZ
01-18-2017, 12:30 PM
They're hamstrung right now.

Melo is keeping this team from moving forward. Him not waiving his NTC is killing this team. They could tank this year and get one of the top players in the draft. A young stud PG paired with Porzingis could be great for the future and the city. However, he is well within his right to not waive it. He was offered that contract. I cant crush him for not waiving it.

That contract is either Phil or Dolan's fault. Part of me wants to think its Dolan, but truthfully, I have no idea. Maybe Dolan forced Phil's hand into offering a NTC and a trade kicker. Maybe they were Phil's idea. I'd love to know who.

So, while Melo being on this team is what I think is holding them back. The only reason he is here, with this much power is because of management.

Unless Melo waives that no trade clause, things are going to get worse before they get better.

omdigga
01-18-2017, 12:39 PM
This team needs to start playing Melo at PF permanently... start KP at Center and figure the rest out..

faze38
01-18-2017, 01:32 PM
Lets see how to fix the Knicks here is the best idea stay still try to find away to get rid of noah and don't do anything thats gonna screw us in the future. That's it the Knicks don't need fixing they need time yes Melo is past his prime but he holds the keys can't get much back there. Noah has a horrible contract we are screwed there. C.Lee is over paid but so are most people after this free agent class. We need time to build a decent squad and let these crazy contracts settle. The fix is this thing called time and the draft. I want the Knicks to win as bad as anybody but its time to build a roster like the warriors with time and patience. Or pray to god all day everyday that Steph Curry or CP3 takes pity on the Knicks and joins us but as we knick fans have learned we don't get that lucky with free agents!! Let's hope Melo stops playing midway thru the season and we get a top 3 pick very unlikely but we can dream unless of course the Knicks find away to get it together and actually make it to the 6th seed that would be amazing highly doubt it!!!

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-18-2017, 01:54 PM
Either let Rose and Jennings expiring and try and lure in a better win now piece this summer. Or package them expiring's and trade for deadweight if you think you strikeout in free agency so then you eat over paid players but get assets tossed in as in guys on rookie contracts and/or picks. Not much else you can do unless Melo accepts being traded to Cavs or Clippers. Cavs probably don't want him. Clippers maybe, but don't have much. I think most of the Clippers picks are traded away. Not sure when then can trade any picks. Unless Clippers decide to go small ball and trade Knicks Jordan for Melo? Melo has the trade kicker as well if even agreeing to the trade. With CP3 injured for 6 to 8 weeks who know what they will do now.

IndyRealist
01-18-2017, 04:32 PM
Either let Rose and Jennings expiring and try and lure in a better win now piece this summer. Or package them expiring's and trade for deadweight if you think you strikeout in free agency so then you eat over paid players but get assets tossed in as in guys on rookie contracts and/or picks. Not much else you can do unless Melo accepts being traded to Cavs or Clippers. Cavs probably don't want him. Clippers maybe, but don't have much. I think most of the Clippers picks are traded away. Not sure when then can trade any picks. Unless Clippers decide to go small ball and trade Knicks Jordan for Melo? Melo has the trade kicker as well if even agreeing to the trade. With CP3 injured for 6 to 8 weeks who know what they will do now.

I can't believe anyone thinks the answer is that the Knicks need to try to win now with basically the same roster minus Rose and Jennings. They need an overhaul pretty badly.

Chronz
01-18-2017, 08:00 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks the answer is that the Knicks need to try to win now with basically the same roster minus Rose and Jennings. They need an overhaul pretty badly.

A LOT of people still think Carmelo is a stud/star thats why. They think it wouldn't take much to get them back in playoff contention but they would have been closer had Phil just left the team alone.

bklynny67
01-18-2017, 08:08 PM
It gets better... in the knicks forum they want wade... ****ING WHY? He shoots 16 times a game and is shooting 42 percent.. Why would you want yet another ****ing guy taking shots away from porz? you have that in melo.... GET OUT OF YOUR OWN WAY.
No one really wants Wade.... You probably saw one poster say they want Wade and then come here and make it sound like Knicks fans want Wade. That's not true at all.

Most fans want to get rid of Melo, Rose, Noah, Jennings... For a couple 1st round picks if possible and decent not great young talent. That's the start of a rebuild we need, along with tanking the rest of this season.

da ThRONe
01-19-2017, 06:44 PM
He's been playing better as of late. Knicks could keep Noah and still blow it up. Not a bad locker-room presence to have around a young team, which the Knicks will have if they decide to blow things up.

Yeah I'd look to some where like Philly with way too much inexperienced bigs to deal Noah. They have so much cap space his deal wouldn't hurt them and he'd be a great mentor for Embiid while having enough in the tank to give productive yet limited mins off the bench.

tp13baby
01-19-2017, 07:07 PM
I don't think they are getting rid of Melo or Noah. If you can get anything for Rose or Jennings do it. Don't expect it to bet much.

Draft a real point guard. Assuming they don't make the playoffs I think they will end up with one considering the class is scary good.

ewing
01-20-2017, 04:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARDhJ2dpuYU

Crackadalic
01-20-2017, 09:11 AM
Not resigning derrick rose. He's hurting KP development badly. At least melo helps KP at times but rose refuses to let him do his thing and it pisses me off.

Scoots
01-20-2017, 10:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARDhJ2dpuYU

You and I had similar ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuRQH_hLcTw

AI
01-20-2017, 02:35 PM
I'd fire Phil and get someone who doesn't rely on playing mind tricks and actually has the balls to do his job. Someone who would come out and say "We're ready to blow things up and will look to trade Melo and listen on everyone on the roster". Obviously Porzingis is untouchable, but it's about creating a culture of accountability where no player feels they are above anyone else.

I thought that when the Knicks hired Phil, he'd bring stability and a winning culture to the organization. It's been the complete opposite. Constant coaching changes, massive roster changes on a year to year basis, different coaching philosophies and systems, and when Phil has actually come out and said something it's been to create drama as evidenced by the LeBron posse comment and then openly criticizing Melo.

People forget that when Phil was hired, the Knicks still had a playoff roster which he completely blew up and sold for pennies on the dollar because it didn't fit his precious triangle.. Which is an extremly outdated system that doesn't work in today's NBA.

For all the blame and negative attention that Melo gets, Phil has also played a massive role in the Knicks struggles. He's responsible for handing out what is most likely the worst contract in the entire NBA, Joakim Noah. Not to mention, Rose is a good scoring PG but he's flat out awful defensively and sucks at getting his teammates involved. Melo actually tries to get KP involved while Rose will simply use him as a screener and only look to get his. He's very selfish.

If Phil put his ego aside and was willing to lose his "power struggle" with Melo by publicly coming out and saying he's ready to blow things up and trade Melo, I could get behind Phil, but he's too busy playing mind tricks.

Sly Guy
01-20-2017, 08:41 PM
I'm ok watching them burn for a little bit longer. Makes for good entertainment.