PDA

View Full Version : Who is having a better year: Harden or Westbrook?



JasonJohnHorn
01-12-2017, 01:34 PM
Averaging a triple-double with low efficiency on 50ish win team? Or averaging a near triple double with much better efficiency on a team that is on pace to win more than 60 games?


Both season are historically good in my eyes, but I'm hard pressed to pick who is having a better season.

Who you got and why?

dhopisthename
01-12-2017, 01:36 PM
Harden for me. He is putting up similar numbers, but on a much lower usage.

Bostonjorge
01-12-2017, 08:38 PM
Houston has a better team around Harden. Harden has Gordon playing great ball again, Ryan Anderson who is always solid and Decker who's looking like his college self finally. That's a lot of fire power on offense alone and all are top tier shooters. Ariza, Nene and Beverly hold the defense down. Harden is just having a good season but we see this kind of season from players every year.

Westbrook has zero floor spacers on his team. He has a aminzing big in Adams who's a hustle player but that's all Westbrook has to work with. Westbrook already has double the amount in half a season then James most ever in a full season(triple doubles). What Westbrook is doing is special and he is truly making history.

More-Than-Most
01-12-2017, 08:58 PM
as mediocre on defense as westy is harden will always be the worst defender... give me westy every day.

Avenged
01-12-2017, 09:03 PM
I'm taking Westbrook. But it's crazy to think these two were once teammates. Not to mention once you add Durant? Holy hell! You wanted to win a championship? These guys could have done it eventually.

NFLAccess
01-12-2017, 09:28 PM
I'll be the homer that I am being a Rockets fan and go with Harden here. Although stats are a big part of it, it also comes down to who is contributing more to their team.

HandsOnTheWheel
01-12-2017, 11:27 PM
Harden

Clint Olbrock
01-13-2017, 12:09 AM
Almost only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes.. I'll take Westbrook.

JasonJohnHorn
01-13-2017, 12:13 AM
as mediocre on defense as westy is harden will always be the worst defender... give me westy every day.

I wouldn't say Westy is mediocre on D. I'd say he's a helluva a defender on some nights, and certain a respectable defender most night. At least in the past. Not sure about this season. He has a lot on his plate. Chasing those boards makes it hard to focus on man-to-man d in some situations.

JasonJohnHorn
01-13-2017, 12:14 AM
These guys could have done it eventually.

They would have done it by now... that's for sure.

tredigs
01-13-2017, 12:34 AM
I wouldn't say Westy is mediocre on D. I'd say he's a helluva a defender on some nights, and certain a respectable defender most night. At least in the past. Not sure about this season. He has a lot on his plate. Chasing those boards makes it hard to focus on man-to-man d in some situations.
You forgot laughable defender 1 out of 3 nights. Arguably the most overrated of this generation based on his college rep and the idea that his hustle offensively translates through osmosis defensively.

I'll take Harden this season. More efficient overall, and I don't care much about 2 defensive boards that the Thunder bigs are choosing to donate to Westbrook in order to jumpstart their offense (and inflating his rpg numbers as a result).

Houston was projected as the worse team than Houston. How is that pining out? OKC has the better D (no help from Westbrook there according to all metrics), and the farrrr worse offense. Houston role players are overachieving, but I am not going to ding Harden for that.

LA_Raiders
01-13-2017, 03:26 AM
Westbrick no question he is having a one if a kind season, like curry past seasons.

mrblisterdundee
01-13-2017, 03:58 AM
As always, you have to add context.
Harden (27) surrounded great veteran shooters. Ariza (31) shoots 38 percent. Beverly (28), Gordon (28) and Anderson (28) are all shooting above 40 percent, while taking a large volume of threes.
Other than Oladipo (24) and back-up point guard Grant (22) cracking 38 percent from three, the Thunder's best shooters are rookies Sabonis (20) and Abrines (23), all on a much lower volume. It's no wonder Westbrook (28) has a significantly higher usage rate than Harden.
Replace Harden with Westbrook. I'm willing to bet Westbrook can feast even more than he does now, surrounded on all sides by those great shooters. I'll go with him.

More-Than-Most
01-13-2017, 05:40 AM
You forgot laughable defender 1 out of 3 nights. Arguably the most overrated of this generation based on his college rep and the idea that his hustle offensively translates through osmosis defensively.

I'll take Harden this season. More efficient overall, and I don't care much about 2 defensive boards that the Thunder bigs are choosing to donate to Westbrook in order to jumpstart their offense (and inflating his rpg numbers as a result).

Houston was projected as the worse team than Houston. How is that pining out? OKC has the better D (no help from Westbrook there according to all metrics), and the farrrr worse offense. Houston role players are overachieving, but I am not going to ding Harden for that.

your harden :love: is the only thing stopping my :love: for you lol... I cant ****ing stand him

Chrisclover
01-13-2017, 09:07 AM
Harden. He is more efficient and his team is winning more games.

NFLAccess
01-13-2017, 10:41 AM
Harden. He is more efficient and his team is winning more games.

Although stats are key, this is true as well. It's who is contributing more to their team in a result of wins.

Hawkeye15
01-13-2017, 10:53 AM
I get visibly upset watching Harden play, I can't stand how the refs bail him out with shooting fouls 30 feet from the rim when he flails around like a ****ing dead fish. Easily my least favorite player in history to watch, he would get stabbed on a playground if he pulled that ****.

all that being said, the dude is having a monster year. Give me Harden this year over Westbrook.

Avenged
01-13-2017, 11:29 AM
I get visibly upset watching Harden play, I can't stand how the refs bail him out with shooting fouls 30 feet from the rim when he flails around like a ****ing dead fish. Easily my least favorite player in history to watch, he would get stabbed on a playground if he pulled that ****.

all that being said, the dude is having a monster year. Give me Harden this year over Westbrook.

:laugh2: same here. He is up there with my most hated ever Terry and Pierce.

Htownballa1622
01-13-2017, 11:44 AM
I get visibly upset watching Harden play, I can't stand how the refs bail him out with shooting fouls 30 feet from the rim when he flails around like a ****ing dead fish. Easily my least favorite player in history to watch, he would get stabbed on a playground if he pulled that ****.

all that being said, the dude is having a monster year. Give me Harden this year over Westbrook.

I understand you don't like him. That's fine.

BUT... refs are NOT bailing him out. Defenders(dumb ones) keep putting their hands horizontally when fighting around picks set so Harden sees that and he just throws his arms up like he was going to shoot and gets the shooting foul. It's a cheap call but it's the correct call.

Jewelz0376
01-13-2017, 11:48 AM
Never thought I'd see a player average a triple double in a season. Let alone average that and not win MVP. With that said my vote would go to Harden because he is more efficient and his team is winning more. I don't think his supporting cast is that much better than Westbrooks. Hardens teammates are better but not by a large enough margin to discredit his team having a better record.

Hawkeye15
01-13-2017, 12:22 PM
I understand you don't like him. That's fine.

BUT... refs are NOT bailing him out. Defenders(dumb ones) keep putting their hands horizontally when fighting around picks set so Harden sees that and he just throws his arms up like he was going to shoot and gets the shooting foul. It's a cheap call but it's the correct call.

********. He gets a ton of foul shots on non-basketball plays. It's b.s., and ***** ball, defend him all you want. He has the most unappealing game to the eye I can recall honestly. Another one he does, is he baits players into coming around a pick, stops, lets his man bump him, then flails. It's literally beoth ball

FlashBolt
01-13-2017, 02:07 PM
Looking at the roster, Harden's team isn't exactly terrible. He's surrounded with very good shooters and capable players. Looking at our roster (seriously, watch an OKC game and then wait till RWB is on the bench.. we look hopeless), our only offense comes from RWB and Oladipo. You can't name a single player on OKC that can get their own shot or can drive an offense. I think the +/- difference when RWB is on the bench compared to Harden's is very telling. I'd take RWB. I think we'd be seeing an equally -- if not better team if RWB is there instead of Harden. I cannot imagine Harden making OKC the same team in Houston. It just doesn't add up. I'm looking at a bit of Harden's assists and most of it are due to his players getting into the right position and he makes a very basic pass. Watch an OKC game and you'll see that for RWB, that usually almost never happens.

FlashBolt
01-13-2017, 02:10 PM
I understand you don't like him. That's fine.

BUT... refs are NOT bailing him out. Defenders(dumb ones) keep putting their hands horizontally when fighting around picks set so Harden sees that and he just throws his arms up like he was going to shoot and gets the shooting foul. It's a cheap call but it's the correct call.

What about the ones where Harden uses his arm to lock yours into his and then draws a foul? It's manipulative. I guess if it works, it's great. But I would hope the refs would begin to notice it a bit more. I can't find a video of it because I'm assuming people rarely notice it but Harden does it very well. He would lock your arms into his and then shoot the ball. He's drawing contact from his own actions.

FlakeyFool
01-13-2017, 02:12 PM
Westbrook

valade16
01-13-2017, 02:13 PM
Does anyone have the stats of what happens when Westbrook and Harden go to the bench? I saw them awhile back and Westbrook seemed to be far more valuable in terms of the team not imploding when he goes to the bench.

IndyRealist
01-13-2017, 03:14 PM
Harden almost threw the Hornets game because he was hunting for a triple double. It was blatantly obvious. As soon as he got the 10th assist he started attacking the rim again.

Chronz
01-13-2017, 03:25 PM
Harden almost threw the Hornets game because he was hunting for a triple double. It was blatantly obvious. As soon as he got the 10th assist he started attacking the rim again.

Yeah, easily the greatest stat hunter this year. Dude stays in even if his team is blowing out the opposition, reminds me abit of when Kobe led the league in garbage time buckets. So long as they're winning its hard to complain tho

tredigs
01-13-2017, 05:08 PM
Harden almost threw the Hornets game because he was hunting for a triple double. It was blatantly obvious. As soon as he got the 10th assist he started attacking the rim again.

That's actually complete BS, though I am glad you brought this up. I was also watching that game and listening to the Hornets announcers espouse that on their feed (likely why they had you think so). He was making the right plays as the Hornets simply overloaded on him defensively and his teammates were just going cold on him for the stretch (while the Hornets were hitting everything under the sun). Harden was mixing in shots of his own as well (largely couldn't hit as he was being covered so tightly), but the announcing crew would stay quiet during those moments. I remember thinking at the time how pathetic and petty the Charlotte crew was.


Yeah, easily the greatest stat hunter this year. Dude stays in even if his team is blowing out the opposition, reminds me abit of when Kobe led the league in garbage time buckets. So long as they're winning its hard to complain tho

I haven't noticed this any more than is standard of most players (I know I've seen it with KD, Curry, Klay and Draymond this year here and there), but feel free to make mention next time you see some blatant padding going on. I know he's not top 5 in mpg, so it can't be that bad.

Chronz
01-13-2017, 06:08 PM
I haven't noticed this any more than is standard of most players (I know I've seen it with KD, Curry, Klay and Draymond this year here and there), but feel free to make mention next time you see some blatant padding going on. I know he's not top 5 in mpg, so it can't be that bad.
Have yet to check the numbers but aren't those guys usually resting in huge leads? Harden did it against the Clips and some Houston fans have admitted he does stay in long enough to get that triple double or high scoring game. Its a stark contrast to Klay being pulled in the middle of a historic shooting night.

IndyRealist
01-13-2017, 06:35 PM
That's actually complete BS, though I am glad you brought this up. I was also watching that game and listening to the Hornets announcers espouse that on their feed (likely why they had you think so). He was making the right plays as the Hornets simply overloaded on him defensively and his teammates were just going cold on him for the stretch (while the Hornets were hitting everything under the sun). Harden was mixing in shots of his own as well (largely couldn't hit as he was being covered so tightly), but the announcing crew would stay quiet during those moments. I remember thinking at the time how pathetic and petty the Charlotte crew was.



I haven't noticed this any more than is standard of most players (I know I've seen it with KD, Curry, Klay and Draymond this year here and there), but feel free to make mention next time you see some blatant padding going on. I know he's not top 5 in mpg, so it can't be that bad.

AS SOON AS he got the 10th assist, straight to the rim.

tredigs
01-13-2017, 06:53 PM
AS SOON AS he got the 10th assist, straight to the rim.

Lol and the other shots he took in the meantime between his 9th/10th assist? None of his passes were strange in the slightest. He was being overloaded on and passed 3 times for his shooters to take open 3's (hint: it is what their offense is predicated on). Sad that the announcers had that much influence on you, because it was pretty clear that he was just playing his game.

Htownballa1622
01-13-2017, 07:30 PM
********. He gets a ton of foul shots on non-basketball plays. It's b.s., and ***** ball, defend him all you want. He has the most unappealing game to the eye I can recall honestly. Another one he does, is he baits players into coming around a pick, stops, lets his man bump him, then flails. It's literally beoth ball

I get that you don't like it which is why I started out by saying it but he's only exposing bad defense. Is it basketball? Nah, not really. He's hunting out those dumb players to get to the line. It's kind of smart if you ask me. (This is my one issue with him come playoff time when the game all of a sudden is reffed differently)

When the pick comes, his defender sticks their arm out horizontally. He then raises up by hooking them like he was going to shoot. Technically it's a foul. Teams with longer defenders do a better job by just chasing him and keeping their hands vertical. Foul's a foul no matter how cheap it is.

I do find it funny that you don't like watching his game though. I'd like to hear what you think about Wiggins. His game is much uglier to watch imo. (Long 2s and not using his other worldy athleticism to do anything on D or hustle.)


What about the ones where Harden uses his arm to lock yours into his and then draws a foul? It's manipulative. I guess if it works, it's great. But I would hope the refs would begin to notice it a bit more. I can't find a video of it because I'm assuming people rarely notice it but Harden does it very well. He would lock your arms into his and then shoot the ball. He's drawing contact from his own actions.

Most definitely it's manipulative. He's searching for contact. It's the defenders job to move their feet or keep their arms vertical. Roberson does a pretty good job of it so you should have seen it before.

I think the local broadcast mentioned he's gotten like 60 of those calls on 3's this year. It's def. cheap but it's no doubt a foul if your hand is horizontal and touching someone's torso.

IndyRealist
01-13-2017, 07:58 PM
Lol and the other shots he took in the meantime between his 9th/10th assist? None of his passes were strange in the slightest. He was being overloaded on and passed 3 times for his shooters to take open 3's (hint: it is what their offense is predicated on). Sad that the announcers had that much influence on you, because it was pretty clear that he was just playing his game.

So I'm alternately accused of not watching any games, and then only paying attention to the announcers. PSD needs to make up it's mind. I'm in Houston, I get the local broadcast on Root.

Chronz
01-13-2017, 08:07 PM
So I'm alternately accused of not watching any games, and then only paying attention to the announcers. PSD needs to make up it's mind. I'm in Houston, I get the local broadcast on Root.
You just can't do anything right, can you? I would advise you just start watching ALL games on mute. Problem solved

FlashBolt
01-15-2017, 03:46 AM
To be fair, I've seen Adams tip the ball over to Westbrook a few times per game. I'm guessing Adams is trying to help Westbrook get that triple double. Hard to imagine a PG grabbing 10 boards per game.. that's insane.

rhino17
01-18-2017, 02:02 PM
Harden's crazy numbers equate to winning, no brainer

Chronz
01-18-2017, 04:29 PM
To be fair, I've seen Adams tip the ball over to Westbrook a few times per game. I'm guessing Adams is trying to help Westbrook get that triple double. Hard to imagine a PG grabbing 10 boards per game.. that's insane.

Comparatively speaking, I'd argue thats less conducive to his stat line and more important to his team. Like Eric Gordons numbers explode as the lead ball handler in that role too but I guess its hard to blame someone for maximizing their situation.

Still, with regards to their rebounding, they're still a strong rebounding team and him grabbing it is basically just the Jason Kidd effect where everyone on the team knows if he grabs it hes off and running. The teams offensive efficiency is greater when Russ grabs the rebound and runs rather than when he gets the ball from an outlet pass. Still, I guess we could argue his weaknesses in the halfcourt make his team less potent overall that such a reliance on the fast break isn't as important to winning.