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View Full Version : All-Time Playoffs Finals Matchup: 1st seed versus 2nd seed



Shammyguy3
01-09-2017, 02:34 PM
GMs used private auction bids to acquire players and form a roster. There were 12 playoff teams, and each matchup is up to PSD users to vote on for a winner to move onto the next round. All players are healthy, using their multi-year primes to base their production on. Who wins this matchup in a 7-game series?

1st seed
PG: Alvin Robertson | Baron Davis
SG: Michael Jordan | Allan Houston
SF: Glen Rice | Billy Cunningham
PF: Kevin Love | Dave Cowens | Serge Ibaka
C: Hakeem Olajuwon | Dave Cowens


2nd seed
C: Wilt Chamberlain/Jack Sikma
PF: Tim Duncan/Wes Unseld
SF: Peja Stojakovic/Bernard King
SG: Paul George/ Jimmy Butler
PG: Mark Price/Mookie Blaylock

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 03:19 PM
This is exactly the reason why you want Alvin Robertson. He would do great on Mark Price. He would still get dogged by Magic though. :) I almost want Jordan to go on Peja just so he could swallow him up and then Dhop's only play-maker for an all-time finals would be Paul George. Yikes. But I don't think Valade needs to get that cute. He can just play straight up. The obvious sticking point here is Duncan vs. Love. How much can Duncan dominate that matchup? Maybe this is the time Valade goes more to Cowens? Tough call. My gut says Team 1 still wins this in a landslide but I'm hoping for a dogfight. Will wait at least for opening arguments before placing my vote.

valade16
01-09-2017, 03:24 PM
This is exactly the reason why you want Alvin Robertson. He would do great on Mark Price. He would still get dogged by Magic though. :) I almost want Jordan to go on Peja just so he could swallow him up and then Dhop's only play-maker for an all-time finals would be Paul George. Yikes. But I don't think Valade needs to get that cute. He can just play straight up. The obvious sticking point here is Duncan vs. Love. How much can Duncan dominate that matchup? Maybe this is the time Valade goes more to Cowens? Tough call. My gut says Team 1 still wins this in a landslide but I'm hoping for a dogfight. Will wait at least for opening arguments before placing my vote.

Will have time for a more full lineup later tonight but yes the sole reason I kept Cowens was specifically for this matchup. Cowens will get more playing time to combat Duncan.

Redrum187
01-09-2017, 04:34 PM
It's tough admitting that a Duncan team paired with Wilt is not enough.

valade16
01-09-2017, 04:39 PM
It's tough admitting that a Duncan team paired with Wilt is not enough.

Imagine admitting an MJ/Hakeem team isn't enough lol.

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 04:56 PM
Ya I think this is a pretty easy call for team one tbh but I will wait for a write up.

Ebbs
01-09-2017, 05:53 PM
I blame the GM who traded Hakeem to a ****ing Jordan team/. ****ING DONKey

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 05:55 PM
I blame the GM who traded Hakeem to a ****ing Jordan team/. ****ING DONKey

Lol he woulda had Kareem if we didn't make that 3 way trade.

I blame idiots who overspent on the following tiers allowing the top duos to round out their teams nicely...

Shammyguy3
01-09-2017, 06:45 PM
I blame the GM who traded Hakeem to a ****ing Jordan team/. ****ING DONKey

would you have preferred Jordan/Kareem then?

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 06:52 PM
I blame the GM who traded Hakeem to a ****ing Jordan team/. ****ING DONKey

would you have preferred Jordan/Kareem then?

Would he have had $ to fill roster?

warfelg
01-09-2017, 06:52 PM
I agree with others that say they need to see a great argument from both sides first. Because I can see ways for both teams to win this.

Chronz
01-09-2017, 07:02 PM
I wouldn't start Love here.

Shammyguy3
01-09-2017, 07:27 PM
Would he have had $ to fill roster?

Kareem cost only $8.5M more than Hakeem - considering there were guys that weren't bid on at all, I say easily

Chronz
01-09-2017, 07:35 PM
Kareem cost only $8.5M more than Hakeem - considering there were guys that weren't bid on at all, I say easily

Really? Then how come we couldn't land a plethora of 3-d guys?

valade16
01-09-2017, 07:44 PM
Would he have had $ to fill roster?

I looked and yes with the caveat that it wouldn't have been as good. I won Cowens at $4 mil and Porter, Rice and Alvin at $6, $6 and $6.5, meaning I would have had to forgo my bid on Alvin and without Porter as a trade Chip would not have been able to trade for Love. So I'd likely have had a lineup of:

Porter - MJ - Rice - Cowens - Kareem with ZERO quality bench.

tredigs
01-09-2017, 09:30 PM
I gotta tell ya, playing Alvin Robertson at PG is a mistake. Has no range and he wasn't a very good playmaker (even for a shooting guard).

This matchup is a lot closer than a lot might think. Playing Cowens more to offset the beating Love would take against Timmy? OK, but your team has very little spacing at that point, which is going to be a HUGE issue against that twin-tower-on-roids frontcourt.

To be honest I think Duncan/Chamberlain win this thing.

valade16
01-09-2017, 09:57 PM
I gotta tell ya, playing Alvin Robertson at PG is a mistake. Has no range and he wasn't a very good playmaker (even for a shooting guard).

This matchup is a lot closer than a lot might think. Playing Cowens more to offset the beating Love would take against Timmy? OK, but your team has very little spacing at that point, which is going to be a HUGE issue against that twin-tower-on-roids frontcourt.

To be honest I think Duncan/Chamberlain win this thing.

Playing Alvin at PG is no more a mistake (and actually probably less of one) than playing PG at SG. He showed he was definitely more suited to play SF and at this point is more likely to play PF than SG. He simply isn't quick enough to stop MJ and if he switches to Glen Rice that means either Price or Peja is guarding MJ...

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 10:00 PM
Kareem cost only $8.5M more than Hakeem - considering there were guys that weren't bid on at all, I say easily

Really? Then how come we couldn't land a plethora of 3-d guys?

Clueless.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 10:01 PM
Would he have had $ to fill roster?

Kareem cost only $8.5M more than Hakeem - considering there were guys that weren't bid on at all, I say easily

Yeah but wasn't that more of a farce than a good strategy?

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 10:15 PM
This is exactly the reason why you want Alvin Robertson. He would do great on Mark Price. He would still get dogged by Magic though. :) I almost want Jordan to go on Peja just so he could swallow him up and then Dhop's only play-maker for an all-time finals would be Paul George. Yikes. But I don't think Valade needs to get that cute. He can just play straight up. The obvious sticking point here is Duncan vs. Love. How much can Duncan dominate that matchup? Maybe this is the time Valade goes more to Cowens? Tough call. My gut says Team 1 still wins this in a landslide but I'm hoping for a dogfight. Will wait at least for opening arguments before placing my vote.

Will have time for a more full lineup later tonight but yes the sole reason I kept Cowens was specifically for this matchup. Cowens will get more playing time to combat Duncan.

But aren't you worried about your spacing? You are down to 1 shooter.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 10:16 PM
It's tough admitting that a Duncan team paired with Wilt is not enough.

By that argument there is no way I could talk myself into voting against Hakeem and MJ. :)

tredigs
01-09-2017, 10:17 PM
Playing Alvin at PG is no more a mistake (and actually probably less of one) than playing PG at SG. He showed he was definitely more suited to play SF and at this point is more likely to play PF than SG. He simply isn't quick enough to stop MJ and if he switches to Glen Rice that means either Price or Peja is guarding MJ...

Highly disagree. PG is a very good ISO defender when he locks in (he plays up to his competition more often than not I've found) and has a ton of experience guarding the games best SG's. For a player who is going to give you something offensively as well and is the 4th best starter on the roster, it's a fine decision to go with. He's also excellent at slipping screens (random but very true fact about PG).

Alvin Robertson has exactly 0 experience playing PG, and he is being asked to be the man bringing the ball up against one of the greatest teams ever assembled? I mean come on, that is just a full blown massive mistake. Not as if he's going to be excelling off the ball either. This is a sub 30% 3pt shooter. I just don't like it. Specifically when we're talking about a guy who's never seen a game 5 of a round ONE playoff series, let alone an All-Time Finals.

Just a side note, but I wish that the GM's would have to choose the years of the players in this matchup, because that matters significantly in some cases. You can't just get the best version of them on all counts. I think me and PSK did that when we took down the last All-Time redraft contest on here.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 10:21 PM
I blame the GM who traded Hakeem to a ****ing Jordan team/. ****ING DONKey

Lol he woulda had Kareem if we didn't make that 3 way trade.

I blame idiots who overspent on the following tiers allowing the top duos to round out their teams nicely...

But like I said in the other thread it was easily predictable that depth was going to be workable. It wasn't a full game. Apparently these games don't fill up anymore and so an all time game with 20 teams is going to be loaded. I told Valade see you in the finals after the first day. Granted I should have said final four and I had to bust my *** to beat a strong RR team but the point is obvious. You have to get in that first group of studs. These games are won by mj/shaq/kareem/etc.

valade16
01-09-2017, 10:24 PM
But aren't you worried about your spacing? You are down to 1 shooter.

Not particularly because contrary to the idea that only 3pt shooting = shooting all of Alvin, Cowens and MJ could shoot. Heck MJ was a 32.4% 3PT shooter his first 3pt and shot 38.7% in the playoffs.

I also think MJ and Alvin guarding Price and PG is severely going to lower their %'s as well.

tredigs
01-09-2017, 11:46 PM
Not particularly because contrary to the idea that only 3pt shooting = shooting all of Alvin, Cowens and MJ could shoot. Heck MJ was a 32.4% 3PT shooter his first 3pt and shot 38.7% in the playoffs.

I also think MJ and Alvin guarding Price and PG is severely going to lower their %'s as well.

Cowens has literally never known of nor shot a 3 (OK maybe via the ABA or as an elder) and Alvin was horrible at it. They're good at long 2's? So, they shoot a robust ~40% rate from deep mid-range? OK? That's terrible offense and won't work. MJ is MJ but you're leaving a lot to be desired from range, and it would be significant, specifically due to good ****ing luck getting anything done in the paint.

The more I think about this, the more I know the Duncan/Wilt squad would win.

0% chance a voting public goes against MJ/Dream though, so nice draft/trade.

valade16
01-10-2017, 12:01 AM
Cowens has literally never known of nor shot a 3 (OK maybe via the ABA or as an elder) and Alvin was horrible at it. They're good at long 2's? So, they shoot a robust ~40% rate from deep mid-range? OK? That's terrible offense and won't work. MJ is MJ but you're leaving a lot to be desired from range, and it would be significant, specifically due to good ****ing luck getting anything done in the paint.

The more I think about this, the more I know the Duncan/Wilt squad would win.

0% chance a voting public goes against MJ/Dream though, so nice draft/trade.

I mean let's not discount his main scoring is the post-up, a completely dead art because of how inefficient it is. Not to mention, Duncan, despite being deified here on PSD recently was not an uber efficient scorer (career 55% TS), and Wilt was actually worse (54%). Wilt had near zero range so he is posting up Hakeem and where is Duncan? Also in the low post? Nah, he'll be in he midrange to space for Wilt. Career 40% 16-23 ft midrange shooter (who actually shot 38.6% during his peak)

So you're saying my offense would never work because it has spacing issues when his entire offense is predicated on two post up players in today's NBA? he'll try to pass out of the post and swing for an open 3 but A. His offense will be more for Price and Peja instead of Duncan and Wilt and furthermore B. Alvin is perhaps the best turnover creator in history, MJ, who is among the best turnover creators in history and Hakeem who is the best steals creator of any Center in history. You don't think they'd play the passing lanes when Duncan and Wilt try to dish out of the paint?

So his offense is every bit as inefficient as mine and then at the end of the game, you're darn right I'm going hack-Shaq on Wilt. So he has to take Wilt out and I bring in Love and get all the spacing I need and Duncan now goes head up against Hakeem.

tredigs
01-10-2017, 12:08 AM
I mean let's not discount his main scoring is the post-up, a completely dead art because of how inefficient it is. Not to mention, Duncan, despite being deified here on PSD recently was not an uber efficient scorer (career 55% TS), and Wilt was actually worse (54%). Wilt had near zero range so he is posting up Hakeem and where is Duncan? Also in the low post? Nah, he'll be in he midrange to space for Wilt. Career 40% 16-23 ft midrange shooter (who actually shot 38.6% during his peak)

So you're saying my offense would never work because it has spacing issues when his entire offense is predicated on two post up players in today's NBA? he'll try to pass out of the post and swing for an open 3 but A. His offense will be more for Price and Peja instead of Duncan and Wilt and furthermore B. Alvin is perhaps the best turnover creator in history, MJ, who is among the best turnover creators in history and Hakeem who is the best steals creator of any Center in history. You don't think they'd play the passing lanes when Duncan and Wilt try to dish out of the paint?

So his offense is every bit as inefficient as mine and then at the end of the game, you're darn right I'm going hack-Shaq on Wilt. So he has to take Wilt out and I bring in Love and get all the spacing I need and Duncan now goes head up against Hakeem.

Low post positional issues are much less of an issue when you have great passing ability. Duncan has always been a smart/willing passer and Wilt has shown the same (dude literally led the league in APG during his prime just for the **** of it... that's the skill level you're dealing with here). Peak Duncan/Wilt are still owning Cowens on that end and GL with him on offense against that cast.

It's not a good matchup for your team. They would likely lose a hard fought 7 game series more often than not. You're going against a team that is big-centric and can't even capitalize by being a 3-ball team as a loop-hole win. You'd lose.

valade16
01-10-2017, 12:17 AM
Low post positional issues are much less of an issue when you have great passing ability. Duncan has always been a smart/willing passer and Wilt has shown the same (dude literally led the league in APG during his prime just for the **** of it... that's the skill level you're dealing with here). Peak Duncan/Wilt are still owning Cowens on that end and GL with him on offense against that cast.

It's not a good matchup for your team. They would likely lose a hard fought 7 game series more often than not. You're going against a team that is big-centric and can't even capitalize by being a 3-ball team as a loop-hole win. You'd lose.

Granted it was older Wilt but it was still rookie/young Cowens but Wilt certainly didn't own him:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Dave+Cowens&player_id1_select=Dave+Cowens&player_id1=cowenda01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

But I get it, Cowens is and older white guy so he must be slow and unathletic and no match for good C's. Also how would this lineup work:

Price - PG - Peja - Duncan - Sikma

Vs

Alvin - MJ - Rice - Love - Hakeem

Because that's what it looks like at the end of the game unless he wants to leave Wilt in to shoot FTs in hack-a-Wilt

My team would win. I do enjoy the argument though.

Shammyguy3
01-10-2017, 12:27 AM
I gotta tell ya, playing Alvin Robertson at PG is a mistake. Has no range and he wasn't a very good playmaker (even for a shooting guard).

This matchup is a lot closer than a lot might think. Playing Cowens more to offset the beating Love would take against Timmy? OK, but your team has very little spacing at that point, which is going to be a HUGE issue against that twin-tower-on-roids frontcourt.

To be honest I think Duncan/Chamberlain win this thing.

Alvin doesn't need to be a playmaker with Jordan/Hakeem. Do you think him dribbling the ball up to half-court is a detriment to a team? And also - how was Robertson not a very good playmaker? The guy has a career 23.1% assist rate. During their time with MJ and the Bulls'

BJ Armstrong's was 19.0%
Ron Harpers was 16.0%
John Paxson's was 20.8%
Steve Kerr's was 13.8%

The 3 point shooting I get - but the playmaking and saying it is a full blown massive mistake for him to dribble the ball up the court is stupid. This team has Michael Jordan, if you want he can bring the ball up himself like he did a good portion of the time


Yeah but wasn't that more of a farce than a good strategy?

:shrug:

tredigs
01-10-2017, 12:31 AM
Granted it was older Wilt but it was still rookie/young Cowens but Wilt certainly didn't own him:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Dave+Cowens&player_id1_select=Dave+Cowens&player_id1=cowenda01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01

But I get it, Cowens is and older white guy so he must be slow and unathletic and no match for good C's. Also how would this lineup work:

Price - PG - Peja - Duncan - Sikma

Vs

Alvin - MJ - Rice - Love - Hakeem

Because that's what it looks like at the end of the game unless he wants to leave Wilt in to shoot FTs in hack-a-Wilt

My team would win. I do enjoy the argument though.
You are relegated to showing "stats" of old-*** Wilt in his mid 30's against young/prime Cowens (hint: players back in the day came into the league ready. No 1 and dones) with no FG%, blocks/steals/etc etc etc? C'mon man.

And your race infused argument won't work against this young-adult white man, sorry braj. Wilt was just that much more of a beast, as is Duncan. Cowens would suffer against both top-10 All-Time talents. K love? Lmfao. GL there.

I do enjoy that you're theoretically resorting to "hack-a-wilt" though. To me that's a sign of desperation and ultimately defeat in an All-Time game (but again, you scored MJ/Dream and there is a 0% chance the general pop will realize your holes/vote against you)

valade16
01-10-2017, 12:34 AM
You are relegated to showing "stats" of old-*** Wilt in his mid 30's against young/prime Cowens (hint: players back in the day came into the league ready. No 1 and dones) with no FG%, blocks/steals/etc etc etc? C'mon man.

And your race infused argument won't work against this young-adult white man, sorry braj. Wilt was just that much more of a beast, as is Duncan. Cowens would suffer against both top-10 All-Time talents. K love? Lmfao. GL there.

I do enjoy that you're theoretically resorting to "hack-a-wilt" though. To me that's a sign of desperation and ultimately defeat in an All-Time game (but again, you scored MJ/Dream and there is a 0% chance the general pop will realize your holes/vote against you)

The certainty that all the rests of the plebs on this site will vote for me but they're all wrong and your irrefutably right is so you lol.

It's all good, you're one vote.

tredigs
01-10-2017, 12:36 AM
The certainty that all the rests of the plebs on this site will vote for me but they're all wrong and your irrefutably right is so you lol.

It's all good, you're one vote.
To be fair, I know more about ball than all of ya ; )

valade16
01-10-2017, 12:40 AM
To be fair, I know more about ball than all of ya ; )

Lol you definitely have more reason to be confident than any of us

tredigs
01-10-2017, 01:00 AM
Lol you definitely have more reason to be confident than any of us

Not sure that's true but I DO stand by my take mon frere.

I'll be honest though, I was just trying to figure out a reason to vote against the MJ squad initally, and the more I thought about it the more I realized the Duncan/Wilt squad could and IMO would win.

valade16
01-10-2017, 01:06 AM
Not sure that's true but I DO stand by my take mon frere.

I'll be honest though, I was just trying to figure out a reason to vote against the MJ squad initally, and the more I thought about it the more I realized the Duncan/Wilt squad could and IMO would win.

I was dead serious and talking about the Warriors for the record. I mean I don't even want to divulge what I would be like if the Blazers had their roster lol

dhopisthename
01-10-2017, 04:03 AM
I see that Tredigs made most of my points for me. he has nearly zero spacing with love on the bench. Jordan is being guarded by a very athletic guy who can't stop him, but can certainly slow him down. I also have an insane post defense that will make it very difficult for Jordan to get to the rim. I have Wilt and Duncan I put on Hakeem. i can bring King off the bench for a scoring punch or Jimmy Butler for more defense. I have the guy who has scored 60 almost as many times as every other nba player in its history combined. He AVERAGED 22.9 rebounds per game for his career and at his peak averaged 24.9. you can say things like pace and of course that helped, but he still lead the league in rebounds 11/13 times he played more then 15 games.

mngopher35
01-10-2017, 04:23 AM
But like I said in the other thread it was easily predictable that depth was going to be workable. It wasn't a full game. Apparently these games don't fill up anymore and so an all time game with 20 teams is going to be loaded. I told Valade see you in the finals after the first day. Granted I should have said final four and I had to bust my *** to beat a strong RR team but the point is obvious. You have to get in that first group of studs. These games are won by mj/shaq/kareem/etc.

Ya that's why I made the trade, I guessed he would be able to make it work anyways due to the previous games spending (we actually might have done better this time in comparison?). For me I got one of those 3 guys you just mentioned which helped me at least compete with you guys that all got 2 that round.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2017, 12:23 PM
Ya that's why I made the trade, I guessed he would be able to make it work anyways due to the previous games spending (we actually might have done better this time in comparison?). For me I got one of those 3 guys you just mentioned which helped me at least compete with you guys that all got 2 that round.

I'd love to see a game where people actually get punished for overbidding on stars instead of rewarded. I still remember Shammy grading out my buy of Shaq as a "C" and an overpay and in a way he was right but I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little because I knew he was going to take me far in the game. The reality is that people need to start bidding +$100 on all the group 1 guys or it won't happen. The strategy is top 10 player or bust because the talent pool for role players is just too deep.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2017, 12:24 PM
I like Valade's team more but his spacing would be the worst of any team I have seen win this game in a long time. The irony of course is that I won an all-time with this starting 5:

PG - Alvin Roberston
SG - Michael Jordan
SF - Detlef Schrempf
PF - Pau Gasol
C - Artis Gilmore

valade16
01-10-2017, 01:43 PM
I like Valade's team more but his spacing would be the worst of any team I have seen win this game in a long time. The irony of course is that I won an all-time with this starting 5:

PG - Alvin Roberston
SG - Michael Jordan
SF - Detlef Schrempf
PF - Pau Gasol
C - Artis Gilmore

Well that team would look better this season considering Pau is hitting over 40% from deep, which goes back to that conversation PSK and I had in the chatzy about 3pt shooting and how we incorrectly assume production from 3 is their ability from 3.

I find it difficult to believe that Pau Gasol couldn't hit a 3 his whole career and then what 14 years in he suddenly develops a 3pt shot as soon as SA asks him to shoot from the corner. What is more probable is he had the ability to shoot the 3 from there (being the shooter he is) and because he was a big man in a more traditional NBA he wasn't asked to shoot it. We can see this affect with Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Paul Milsap, ZBo, LMA, etc.

We assume guys who didn't shoot very many 3's in the 80's or early 90's did so because they couldn't, when for many it was more that they were conditioned to believe that is a bad shot and not to shoot it much of the time. Korver mentioned how it wasn't until he got to Atlanta that his coach gave him the green light to shoot 3's in transition. And that was in the 00's, imagine the paradigm for shooting 3's in the 80's when it first came out? Even Larry Bird said he didn't really shoot them and viewed them as more of a novelty.

Michael Jordan is apparently credited as "can't shoot" the 3 in this and I don't know why. He is a career 33% 3PT shooter with Chicago and if you really look into you see the affect I'm talking about. His first 4 seasons he took .7 3's per game and hit only 16% of them. The next 5 seasons he took 1.9 shots per game and made 33.4% of them. As his volume went up his % went up. I've found that in a lot of cases for players. And even a 33% 3pt shooter will make it a bunch when left open, which is what happened during his first 3pt when he shot 38.7% from deep.

In short, while yes Cowens never actually shot a 3 pointer in that he never shot behind a white line around the court. But Cowens did actually shoot 25' shots (many players did back then), heck a Jerry Lucas jumpshot was called a "Lucas Layup" because of how good he was at it. Yet in this game Lucas is near worthless because he's an older big and therefore he provides no spacing. It's kind of funny how badly we warp players legacies in some cases in this game.

In his time Elgin Baylor was the ultimate floor spacer because he could shoot as a small PF (kind of sounds exactly like what we all want in the modern NBA right now). His original position was called a "cornerman", which as you can guess was so named because he was able to spread the floor and shoot from the corner. Yet in this game he is considered a negative spacer.

Just my random thoughts really

KnicksorBust
01-10-2017, 03:28 PM
Well that team would look better this season considering Pau is hitting over 40% from deep, which goes back to that conversation PSK and I had in the chatzy about 3pt shooting and how we incorrectly assume production from 3 is their ability from 3.

I find it difficult to believe that Pau Gasol couldn't hit a 3 his whole career and then what 14 years in he suddenly develops a 3pt shot as soon as SA asks him to shoot from the corner. What is more probable is he had the ability to shoot the 3 from there (being the shooter he is) and because he was a big man in a more traditional NBA he wasn't asked to shoot it. We can see this affect with Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Paul Milsap, ZBo, LMA, etc.

We assume guys who didn't shoot very many 3's in the 80's or early 90's did so because they couldn't, when for many it was more that they were conditioned to believe that is a bad shot and not to shoot it much of the time. Korver mentioned how it wasn't until he got to Atlanta that his coach gave him the green light to shoot 3's in transition. And that was in the 00's, imagine the paradigm for shooting 3's in the 80's when it first came out? Even Larry Bird said he didn't really shoot them and viewed them as more of a novelty.

Michael Jordan is apparently credited as "can't shoot" the 3 in this and I don't know why. He is a career 33% 3PT shooter with Chicago and if you really look into you see the affect I'm talking about. His first 4 seasons he took .7 3's per game and hit only 16% of them. The next 5 seasons he took 1.9 shots per game and made 33.4% of them. As his volume went up his % went up. I've found that in a lot of cases for players. And even a 33% 3pt shooter will make it a bunch when left open, which is what happened during his first 3pt when he shot 38.7% from deep.

In short, while yes Cowens never actually shot a 3 pointer in that he never shot behind a white line around the court. But Cowens did actually shoot 25' shots (many players did back then), heck a Jerry Lucas jumpshot was called a "Lucas Layup" because of how good he was at it. Yet in this game Lucas is near worthless because he's an older big and therefore he provides no spacing. It's kind of funny how badly we warp players legacies in some cases in this game.

In his time Elgin Baylor was the ultimate floor spacer because he could shoot as a small PF (kind of sounds exactly like what we all want in the modern NBA right now). His original position was called a "cornerman", which as you can guess was so named because he was able to spread the floor and shoot from the corner. Yet in this game he is considered a negative spacer.

Just my random thoughts really

Jerry Lucas admitted he played out of shape and was the master of a one-handed push shot yet put up about 20ppg/20rpg. Are we sure this was the golden era of elite basketball?

To me anything pre-80s is guesswork. It is before the 3pt shot and before most of us were alive. I'm an old guy compared to most on here and I was born in 83. :) It's much easier to write off an era before our time. Some consider it bias but for the most part it's logical to assume that the athletes get better over time. Find me a list of the Olympic world records that still exist from the 1970s. It's short. We are getting taller, stronger, faster and more athletic. NBA players are more versatile than ever. Just look at that thread about Embiid, Giannis, Porzingis, Towns, and Anthony Davis. You got a bunch of 7'0 giants who can shoot 3's and block shots and a 6'11 PG. The game is better and very different now. To assume players from 50 years ago would slide in and be as productive doesn't make sense to me. Are there exceptions? Of course. But again that is a short list.

NYKalltheway
01-11-2017, 04:22 AM
Toughest matchup to date. Im going with #2 here despite the fact that initially I thought #1 had this. Will elaborate when i get back from work and have more time.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2017, 11:36 AM
I'm a big time Peja fan... so I went with that one lol

Chronz
01-11-2017, 03:54 PM
Well that team would look better this season considering Pau is hitting over 40% from deep, which goes back to that conversation PSK and I had in the chatzy about 3pt shooting and how we incorrectly assume production from 3 is their ability from 3.

I find it difficult to believe that Pau Gasol couldn't hit a 3 his whole career and then what 14 years in he suddenly develops a 3pt shot as soon as SA asks him to shoot from the corner. What is more probable is he had the ability to shoot the 3 from there (being the shooter he is) and because he was a big man in a more traditional NBA he wasn't asked to shoot it. We can see this affect with Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Paul Milsap, ZBo, LMA, etc.

We assume guys who didn't shoot very many 3's in the 80's or early 90's did so because they couldn't, when for many it was more that they were conditioned to believe that is a bad shot and not to shoot it much of the time. Korver mentioned how it wasn't until he got to Atlanta that his coach gave him the green light to shoot 3's in transition. And that was in the 00's, imagine the paradigm for shooting 3's in the 80's when it first came out? Even Larry Bird said he didn't really shoot them and viewed them as more of a novelty.

Michael Jordan is apparently credited as "can't shoot" the 3 in this and I don't know why. He is a career 33% 3PT shooter with Chicago and if you really look into you see the affect I'm talking about. His first 4 seasons he took .7 3's per game and hit only 16% of them. The next 5 seasons he took 1.9 shots per game and made 33.4% of them. As his volume went up his % went up. I've found that in a lot of cases for players. And even a 33% 3pt shooter will make it a bunch when left open, which is what happened during his first 3pt when he shot 38.7% from deep.

In short, while yes Cowens never actually shot a 3 pointer in that he never shot behind a white line around the court. But Cowens did actually shoot 25' shots (many players did back then), heck a Jerry Lucas jumpshot was called a "Lucas Layup" because of how good he was at it. Yet in this game Lucas is near worthless because he's an older big and therefore he provides no spacing. It's kind of funny how badly we warp players legacies in some cases in this game.

In his time Elgin Baylor was the ultimate floor spacer because he could shoot as a small PF (kind of sounds exactly like what we all want in the modern NBA right now). His original position was called a "cornerman", which as you can guess was so named because he was able to spread the floor and shoot from the corner. Yet in this game he is considered a negative spacer.

Just my random thoughts really
D antoni did want pau shooting 3s. He just hadn't developed the shot yet. And not everyone can either

And that's not what happened with mj. Just his long 2s suddenly started counting for3s

Baylor could shoot? He definitely couldn't space when Wilt was around

valade16
01-11-2017, 04:08 PM
D antoni did want pau shooting 3s. He just hadn't developed the shot yet. And not everyone can either

And that's not what happened with mj. Just his long 2s suddenly started counting for3s

Baylor could shoot? He definitely couldn't space when Wilt was around

If you're a proficient jump shooter you will likely be able to shoot a 3pt shot especially the more you do it and get acclimated to it. Sorry, D'Antoni in a mess of a situation in LA for Pau doesn't suddenly invalidate the dozens of bigs who are spontaneously developing 3pt shots. So Marc Gasol just worked his butt off all offseason shooting only 3's and suddenly is raining them? Nah, I'm betting he was probably pretty decent to begin with on account of his natural shooting touch.

If you're referring to the years they moved the 3pt line forward then you're also wrong there as the numbers I listed were prior to that change. He shot even better (40.4%) from 3 when they moved the line up. He was a decent 3pt shooter with the normal line and they certainly didn't move the line up between the regular season and the playoffs every season from 91-93 so MJ could shoot 38.7% in those postseasons.

Yes, Elgin Baylor could shoot:

"He was one of the most spectacular shooters the game has ever known," Baylor's longtime teammate Jerry West told HOOP magazine in 1992. "I hear people talking about forwards today and I haven't seen many that can compare with him."

Bill Sharman played against Baylor and coached him in his final years with the Lakers. "I say without reservation that Elgin Baylor is the greatest cornerman who ever played pro basketball," he told the Los Angeles Times at Baylor's retirement in 1971.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/baylor_bio.html

There are numerous other references to his jump shot or midrange game. Did he have range out to the 3pt line? I don't honestly know. But to act like the dude flat couldn't shoot a jump shot (as is thought here) is erroneous.

I mean, Jerry West knows a thing or two about shooting and certainly from his resume knows how to judge talent.

I think the reason he couldn't space for Wilt was that he was so ball dominant and wasn't as much of a catch and shoot guy. We also have to consider this was what 36 by that point. He was a 78% FT shooter for his career and eclipsed 80% several times. Just as a side question, can anyone name someone who could shoot 80% from the line and wasn't at least a decent midrange shooter?

mngopher35
01-11-2017, 04:22 PM
I'd love to see a game where people actually get punished for overbidding on stars instead of rewarded. I still remember Shammy grading out my buy of Shaq as a "C" and an overpay and in a way he was right but I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little because I knew he was going to take me far in the game. The reality is that people need to start bidding +$100 on all the group 1 guys or it won't happen. The strategy is top 10 player or bust because the talent pool for role players is just too deep.

What it comes down to is there being enough people making smart bids to punish those guys. Part of the issue is everyone sees the prices for top guys and uses that as the gauge for the next rounds spending instead of adjusting it more because they are getting lesser talents. Due to this it will take major overspending that first round to actually have an impact because I am not sure people will ever prioritize spending to win as a group (aka punishing top spenders by collectively not overspending themselves) over spending to get specific guys they want.

I agree with what you say about those guys being key and unlikely to win without them. Now people can adjust their overspending to round 1 so we might get that range where people are actually overspending for top stars to the point it might give well rounded teams a chance. I think we might see Jordan for like 120 or something next game after people adjust to these results, we now have something to compare our initial bids to at least. You comment on 100 plus for the first round kinda goes along that line too, people should adjust. The results should tell people to bid more at the top next time which would even things up some throughout. Not sure if it will be enough to truly punish those top tier spenders but it should at least get better next game (regular auction game I was the only guy to get a top 5 and another top 10 player I believe?, this time we had about 4 teams if you include mine with oscar likely just outside top 10).

mngopher35
01-11-2017, 04:23 PM
Congrats Valade

Chronz
01-11-2017, 04:36 PM
If you're a proficient jump shooter you will likely be able to shoot a 3pt shot especially the more you do it and get acclimated to it.
Not comfortable with terms like likely but I guess....


Sorry, D'Antoni in a mess of a situation in LA for Pau doesn't suddenly invalidate the dozens of bigs who are spontaneously developing 3pt shots.
It was a mess precisely because Pau couldn't space the floor. Invalidate? You've yet to validate it yourself, the dozens of bigs developing 3pt shots is my point as well, that they worked on it, it wasn't always there. Also, what other aspect of the game can you simply chalk up to a "mess of a situation" aside from 3pt shooting? Lots of guys in bad situations retain their shooting ability.


So Marc Gasol just worked his butt off all offseason shooting only 3's and suddenly is raining them? Nah, I'm betting he was probably pretty decent to begin with on account of his natural shooting touch.

I disagree, having the shooting touch doesn't hurt if thats all your trying to say.


If you're referring to the years they moved the 3pt line forward then you're also wrong there as the numbers I listed were prior to that change. He shot even better (40.4%) from 3 when they moved the line up. He was a decent 3pt shooter with the normal line and they certainly didn't move the line up between the regular season and the playoffs every season from 91-93 so MJ could shoot 38.7% in those postseasons.

What? 94-95 to 96-97 was when MJ shot 40% from 3, when the line was pushed back to its original distance he suddenly dropped to 23%. He shot 34% in the 4 years prior to that rule change with 2 of the 4 years being a substandard 27% and 31%. Your point is taken about his playoff marksmanship tho.


Yes, Elgin Baylor could shoot:

"He was one of the most spectacular shooters the game has ever known," Baylor's longtime teammate Jerry West told HOOP magazine in 1992. "I hear people talking about forwards today and I haven't seen many that can compare with him."

Bill Sharman played against Baylor and coached him in his final years with the Lakers. "I say without reservation that Elgin Baylor is the greatest cornerman who ever played pro basketball," he told the Los Angeles Times at Baylor's retirement in 1971.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/baylor_bio.html

There are numerous other references to his jump shot or midrange game. Did he have range out to the 3pt line? I don't honestly know. But to act like the dude flat couldn't shoot a jump shot (as is thought here) is erroneous.

Yeah I was talking about distance shooting. Whats the Sharman quote about?


I mean, Jerry West knows a thing or two about shooting and certainly from his resume knows how to judge talent.

I think the reason he couldn't space for Wilt was that he was so ball dominant and wasn't as much of a catch and shoot guy. We also have to consider this was what 36 by that point. He was a 78% FT shooter for his career and eclipsed 80% several times. Just as a side question, can anyone name someone who could shoot 80% from the line and wasn't at least a decent midrange shooter?

He was 34 and insistent on clogging the lane. He was mostly known for his acrobatic finishes from the same areas that Wilt loved to operate from. Its curious that his ft% was around his career average those years and when he suffered his career altering injury his ft% only improved. I suppose he could have declined, when MJ lost his legs during his Wizards years he was an AWFUL 3pt shooter so maybe the same applies for Elgin, dont know about the pre-Wilt years since it couldn't have been a problem since players were spacing for him those days.

valade16
01-11-2017, 05:25 PM
Not comfortable with terms like likely but I guess....

It was a mess precisely because Pau couldn't space the floor. Invalidate? You've yet to validate it yourself, the dozens of bigs developing 3pt shots is my point as well, that they worked on it, it wasn't always there. Also, what other aspect of the game can you simply chalk up to a "mess of a situation" aside from 3pt shooting? Lots of guys in bad situations retain their shooting ability.

I disagree, having the shooting touch doesn't hurt if thats all your trying to say.

What? 94-95 to 96-97 was when MJ shot 40% from 3, when the line was pushed back to its original distance he suddenly dropped to 23%. He shot 34% in the 4 years prior to that rule change with 2 of the 4 years being a substandard 27% and 31%. Your point is taken about his playoff marksmanship tho.

Yeah I was talking about distance shooting. Whats the Sharman quote about?

He was 34 and insistent on clogging the lane. He was mostly known for his acrobatic finishes from the same areas that Wilt loved to operate from. Its curious that his ft% was around his career average those years and when he suffered his career altering injury his ft% only improved. I suppose he could have declined, when MJ lost his legs during his Wizards years he was an AWFUL 3pt shooter so maybe the same applies for Elgin, dont know about the pre-Wilt years since it couldn't have been a problem since players were spacing for him those days.

The only thing I think we really disagree on is 3pt shooting in regards to bigs. I think it is very easy to develop a competent 3pt shot with very little practice if you are a natural shooter or have a good shooting touch and form.

Marc Gasol went from having 0 ability at 3's to being able to shoot 3 a game and hit 39.5% of them in one offseason? This begs the question of why everyone in the league isn't a 39.5% 3pt shooter if all it takes is a single offseason to turn someone who had no ability to shoot a 3 into such a deadly sniper.

The reason is because Gasol didn't need a ton of practice to get good at it because he could already do it fairly well if asked since he was such a good shooter to begin with.

Boogie went from 0 ability to shoot a 3 to 33% on 3 shots in one offseason and this year is at 38.4% on even more shots. Horford went from shooting .5 a game to 3 on 34% shooting. Millsap went from .5 a game to 3 per game at 34% (and has been a 33.9% shooter since then). LMA went from not shooting them at all to 1.5 per game at 35%.

Again all of those were in a single off-season. It's not like we saw years and years of growth and progression and practice at the craft. It was "can't shoot" one year and "quality 3pt shooter" the very next. Either learning to shoot a 3 is far easier than we think or these players (and many others) don't need much practice to get good at shooting them because they are already such adept shooters they were fairly decent at shooting them to begin with.

valade16
01-11-2017, 05:26 PM
Congrats Valade

Thanks. First All-Time victory in 4 attempts. 1st Rd exit, 2nd Rd exit, Finals Loss, Finals Win. Upward trajectory!

DHop had a good team and KoB and Tredigs had very good arguments.

Chronz
01-11-2017, 07:01 PM
The only thing I think we really disagree on is 3pt shooting in regards to bigs. I think it is very easy to develop a competent 3pt shot with very little practice if you are a natural shooter or have a good shooting touch and form.
I just dont know how we would prove that. I personally believe it depends on the individual but yeah, a good midrange shooter has a better chance of increasing his range than a complete non-shooter. Then again we've had horrendous mid range shooters become great 3pt shooters and we've seen guys like Richard Hamilton who have mastered the mid range but have struggled to be as prolific from 3pt shot with their usage.


Marc Gasol went from having 0 ability at 3's to being able to shoot 3 a game and hit 39.5% of them in one offseason? This begs the question of why everyone in the league isn't a 39.5% 3pt shooter if all it takes is a single offseason to turn someone who had no ability to shoot a 3 into such a deadly sniper.

The reason is because Gasol didn't need a ton of practice to get good at it because he could already do it fairly well if asked since he was such a good shooter to begin with.

I doubt you know how long it took for him to develop it, there are players who have admitted practicing shots but not being comfortable with them in game until years later. Its not like Memphis hasn't had GLARING deficiencies with its spacing that Gasol could have helped with FAR sooner, its not like they dont have one of the leading analytics fields which would stress the importance of such a shot.



Boogie went from 0 ability to shoot a 3 to 33% on 3 shots in one offseason and this year is at 38.4% on even more shots. Horford went from shooting .5 a game to 3 on 34% shooting. Millsap went from .5 a game to 3 per game at 34% (and has been a 33.9% shooter since then). LMA went from not shooting them at all to 1.5 per game at 35%.

Yup, point? You seem to think this proves anything when I know all this to be true in my argument as well. Millsap is a great example since hes declined with his shot. Not really seeing your LMA point considering he initially began taking them in Portland then went away from it in y1 with the spurs and though his %'s are up in Y2, hes still taking them with fewer frequency than his Portland year. I remember you asking me about the effect this could have on his teams spacing/efficiency, IIRC I think I told you it depends on how it effects the rest of his game. Some players would suffer by adding the shot simply because it takes them further away from the basket where there slashing could be effected.


Again all of those were in a single off-season. It's not like we saw years and years of growth and progression and practice at the craft. It was "can't shoot" one year and "quality 3pt shooter" the very next. Either learning to shoot a 3 is far easier than we think or these players (and many others) don't need much practice to get good at shooting them because they are already such adept shooters they were fairly decent at shooting them to begin with.

Again, I dont believe you know how long they trained the shot nor have you provided any sort of correlation.

Shammyguy3
01-11-2017, 07:25 PM
great game guys :clap:

dhopisthename
01-11-2017, 07:45 PM
man I seriously underestimated MJ in this. gg Valade

tredigs
01-12-2017, 11:40 AM
man I seriously underestimated MJ in this. gg Valade

Has an MJ team ever lost? Or not at least made the Final (if they found a way to surround him terribly)? I'd be curious. His skill coupled with his legend is just too much in these things. In the only re-draft I've done on here MJ was not available as an option.

valade16
01-12-2017, 12:03 PM
Has an MJ team ever lost? Or not at least made the Final (if they found a way to surround him terribly)? I'd be curious. His skill coupled with his legend is just too much in these things. In the only re-draft I've done on here MJ was not available as an option.

It's usually Shaq who dominates these. For the draft we have the MJ rule where normally the draft is snaked so 1st pick gets bottom of the 2nd and top of the 3rd however for MJ the 3rd Round pick is moved to the bottom of the round. Since that started MJ barely ever makes the playoffs.

This was an auction draft so the prevailing thought is everyone would massively overbid on MJ, but that didn't happen.

Shammyguy3
01-12-2017, 12:27 PM
The last two MJ games his team missed the playoffs I think, I can't remember the last time he made the Finals let alone won

tredigs
01-12-2017, 12:34 PM
It's usually Shaq who dominates these. For the draft we have the MJ rule where normally the draft is snaked so 1st pick gets bottom of the 2nd and top of the 3rd however for MJ the 3rd Round pick is moved to the bottom of the round. Since that started MJ barely ever makes the playoffs.

This was an auction draft so the prevailing thought is everyone would massively overbid on MJ, but that didn't happen.

Oh if the draft is manipulated then that's a different story. Good to hear there's at least some diversification. On paper though I could just never see most fans voting against a MJ/Dream combo. Obviously something you could never achieve in a snake draft, so major props on scoring that one (and judging by some of the epic 2 man combos I saw - including your opponent here and the Shaq/Magic team - some of the non-playoff teams in this thing must have been hot garbage from a top-end standpoint).

dhopisthename
01-12-2017, 01:34 PM
It's usually Shaq who dominates these. For the draft we have the MJ rule where normally the draft is snaked so 1st pick gets bottom of the 2nd and top of the 3rd however for MJ the 3rd Round pick is moved to the bottom of the round. Since that started MJ barely ever makes the playoffs.

This was an auction draft so the prevailing thought is everyone would massively overbid on MJ, but that didn't happen.

honestly before this started I thought 100 mill was just on the cusp of being an overbid, but after watching you walk through shaq/magic and duncan/wilt I think it is probably an underbid. If people can buy Jordan scoring 40 and locking someone like Magic down then honestly he is worth it. What bothers me is why doesn't Wilt get that kind of love?

valade16
01-12-2017, 02:12 PM
honestly before this started I thought 100 mill was just on the cusp of being an overbid, but after watching you walk through shaq/magic and duncan/wilt I think it is probably an underbid. If people can buy Jordan scoring 40 and locking someone like Magic down then honestly he is worth it. What bothers me is why doesn't Wilt get that kind of love?

I thought he'd go for like $120 mil to be honest.

While it's nice to think MJ walked through everyone it was the combo of MJ and Hakeem. If I'd had say MJ/Ewing I likely lose to Magic/Shaq.

I think the reason with Wilt is that there are so many great C's it's harder for one to shine at such a lopsided level. There is a sizable drop off from MJ to any other SG and a huge drop off after the first 3-4. Consider the final 6 teams had Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Moses and Walton. Is it reasonable to expect any Center to dominate another superstar Center to the degree MJ would dominate Eddie Jones or Paul George?

In the simplest terms, a 10 has an easier time dominating 5's and 6's than another 10 does of dominating 8's and 9's.

KnicksorBust
01-12-2017, 03:08 PM
The last two MJ games his team missed the playoffs I think, I can't remember the last time he made the Finals let alone won

I won with him. :) strangely enough I also had Alvin Robertson.

KnicksorBust
01-12-2017, 03:25 PM
I thought he'd go for like $120 mil to be honest.

While it's nice to think MJ walked through everyone it was the combo of MJ and Hakeem. If I'd had say MJ/Ewing I likely lose to Magic/Shaq.

I think the reason with Wilt is that there are so many great C's it's harder for one to shine at such a lopsided level. There is a sizable drop off from MJ to any other SG and a huge drop off after the first 3-4. Consider the final 6 teams had Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Moses and Walton. Is it reasonable to expect any Center to dominate another superstar Center to the degree MJ would dominate Eddie Jones or Paul George?

In the simplest terms, a 10 has an easier time dominating 5's and 6's than another 10 does of dominating 8's and 9's.

First of all, congrats. A well deserved win from one of the best competitors in these games. This post was spot on. The disadvantage of MJ has always been how to handle the behemoths of the center position. By drafting a SG you normally have conceded all of the top 20 big men of all-time at the PF/C positions. Kareem/ Shaq/ Wilt/ Dream/ Duncan /etc. I survived by snagging Artis Gilmore and arguing till I was blue in the face. That's how I squeaked out my win against RR. Who ever would have imagined winning with MJ would be so hard? Then I saw countless games where he didn't even make the playoffs. It really goes to show you that despite the way the game was changing people still wanted to see that big man in the middle to control the court on both ends. Some of it I think is that we vividly remember Shaq's dominance. For many of the posters on here that is the sweet spot. Late 90s early 2000s where people are old enough to remember 1st hand those finals wins. That way you get the 20 year olds and above. Now Valade didn't just "snag" a center to survive. He got Hakeem Olajuwon. :laugh: The Dream is a $100 million dollar player and Valade saved liek $30 just on him. MJ's worth a good $120 so there is another $20. That means the 1st Seed was essentially fielding $250 million worth of merchandise in a game with a $200 cap. Well done.

faze38
01-12-2017, 08:51 PM
Man I really don't know how the Jordan team won this sorry but that Duncan, wilt team is crazy. I respect Jordan as much as the next man but a team that has robinson starting at pg had no right to win paul george may not be the fastest man at the 2 spot but with wilt and duncan playing that back line i do not think mj could have won this series. Wilt is one of the most dominate force the nba has ever seen and your gonna put him next to the greatest PF of all time on top of that you gonna have a point guard that can hit from anywhere pass the rock with the best of them not even have the worry about the guy on the other end thats crazy to me and then to make it worse who the hell is gonna stop king of the bench the man was unstoppable he could drop 50 like it was a walk in the park the man was nasty. What makes it worse is you can't even pack the paint on this squad you help off of any of those guards or peja you gonna pay but congrats to the winner!!

NYKalltheway
01-14-2017, 06:35 AM
Congrats Valade. Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon is a lethal duo, well done for setting that up!

valade16
01-14-2017, 02:28 PM
man I seriously underestimated MJ in this. gg Valade


Congrats Valade. Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon is a lethal duo, well done for setting that up!

Thank you. Both of you made great teams as well. There were a tremendous amount of great teams made in this actually. I think that is in part because there were only 20 teams but still.

AI
01-14-2017, 04:05 PM
Congrats Valade, glad you won bro. I want to do this again.

Chronz
01-17-2017, 11:47 PM
You children shouldn't have voted for MJ