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View Full Version : Fantasy Draft: Kobe, Duncan, or LeBron - Who do you take #1?



kobe4thewinbang
01-07-2017, 12:57 AM
You're the GM of a team that is rebuilding, and these three big talents are up for grabs in the same fantasy draft. Who do you take first in the draft to build your franchise around?

My work pal asked me this question today. I know there's been similar ones before, but I think there is a lot of contrast between these three players. Each one has strengths, each has weaknesses, different impact, different careers as we know, with LeBron's still ongoing.

I thought about it for a while, but I went with Kobe. Call me biased, but I think he is definitely the best scorer of the three and on a team that is rebuilding you need something for fans to be excited about. Kobe has been criticized for his team leadership, ball-hog style, and his poor efficiency, also his defense. But he is definitely a great scorer with killer instinct, athleticism and did show some promise of distributing the ball in flashes throughout his career and as well as some nice plays on defense in the heat of the moment. Kobe's attitude is also hard to combat, but he won 5 championships, went to two more finals but lost, and was part of a great duo with Shaq. In this scenario, there is no Shaq yet. Kobe played his whole career with the Lakers, with some rough patches and trade rumors here and there.

Tim Duncan had some big nights early in his career, afro and all, and is known for being a great professional, the epitome of the "ego-less" superstar, with a stellar post game, strong defense, and overall reliability. He has 5 championships as well, nearly 6, and played for the Spurs his whole career. Duncan and Kobe played against each other in a good rivalry, with each side coming out on top at different times.

Then, LeBron James. He played several years with the Cavaliers, is arguably the most unstoppable player of the three, and the most well-rounded (passing, scoring, defense, leadership). He has been criticized for his lack of 'clutch' DNA, but has been in 6 straight NBA finals and has won 3 championships, with another Finals appearance likely this season. Of the three, LeBron has had the least amount of injuries/most longevity.

Here are their career stats:
Kobe: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
Duncan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html
LeBron: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Who would you go with? I know there are plenty of other great players to choose from to spark a franchise rebuild, but just between these three, please. I know my choice might get flamed, but Kobe would score a lot of points, though I could see how he is not as helpful as a teammate as the other two.

poleandreel
01-07-2017, 01:21 AM
garbage thread. lebron easy. kobe is not even a serious answer in this debate

kdspurman
01-07-2017, 01:23 AM
Duncan.. Perfect leader, & teammate. From day 1 was a dominant 2 way player, & shows up when needed most & on the biggest stages.

valade16
01-07-2017, 01:24 AM
Give me LeBron

Ariza's Better
01-07-2017, 01:33 AM
Duncan. A dominant big man who is also an on and off court leader.

Jamiecballer
01-07-2017, 01:46 AM
Too fricken easy. Lebron, the Duncan.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 02:52 AM
Lebron - Duncan - Kobe in order for me

tredigs
01-07-2017, 03:05 AM
Lebron or Duncan is a very tough call. I'd take the "gamble" and go with Lebron though. Who knows, he might have 5 more near-prime level seasons in him. Kobe's just not dominant enough defensively to compete in this discussion. He was a very good perimeter defender for a handful of years, but LBJ and Duncan were both transcendent. Kobe would never be able to pull off what Duncan did in '03. Ditto 'Bron last year.

*Silver&Black*
01-07-2017, 03:12 AM
I want to say Duncan, but,

if we are involving marketability, ESPN nut riding, superstar calls by refs, being crowned before the player takes his first NBA shot, then James.

But he'll bail for Miami, so Timmy.

GodsSon
01-07-2017, 03:38 AM
LeBron. Easily.

Duncan would be my 2nd pick.

Quinnsanity
01-07-2017, 04:29 AM
You guys, I'm so proud of you! Not a single dumb Kobe answer! A PSD first!

FlashBolt
01-07-2017, 04:29 AM
There is no discussion between Kobe vs LeBron. I'd go with LeBron. Duncan is legendary but can't say he didn't benefit from one of the better rosters/management throughout his career. I'm not sure what you meant by Kobe scoring a lot of points but LeBron has averaged more points than Kobe has in a career average. Not to mention LeBron is miles more efficient.

europagnpilgrim
01-07-2017, 04:32 AM
Lebron

Duncan





Kobe

in that order

ewing
01-07-2017, 10:01 AM
Duncan. He excelled in every system, every role, and with every teammate he was ever handed. quintessential franchise player. LeBron goes next then as much i love him Kobe is a distant 3rd.

NYKalltheway
01-08-2017, 02:46 PM
Duncan easily.

a) He's the best player of the 3.
b) He's a coach's player.
c) He's a great teammate.
d) He does not cause problems in the locker room or with the ownership. Does not intervene in decisions.
e) He's a big, which is much better to build around. Plus he's the easiest to build around.

Miltstar
01-08-2017, 02:49 PM
I'd take Duncan even though I think Lebron is more talented. You don't get the sideshow with him, then again you probably don't get all the favours from the league, but I prefer the guys that shut up and win as opposed to crying until they get their way

Kobe is a great player, but size matters

PhillyFaninLA
01-08-2017, 03:09 PM
Lebron............................................ .........................................Duncan... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. 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.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........Kobe

FlashBolt
01-08-2017, 03:35 PM
A lot of you saying Duncan are ignoring that the Spurs are excelling even without Duncan. I'm not saying he isn't great but you gotta take into perspective that he's been on insanely great teams as well. Duncan would not be able to lead a team the way a player like LeBron can.

kdspurman
01-08-2017, 03:48 PM
A lot of you saying Duncan are ignoring that the Spurs are excelling even without Duncan. I'm not saying he isn't great but you gotta take into perspective that he's been on insanely great teams as well. Duncan would not be able to lead a team the way a player like LeBron can.

Them being competitive doesn't mean anything. It just speaks to his greatness as a teammate/person. His selflessness helped them to rebuild and helped the younger guys take on bigger roles. Plus Pop's brilliance of course. Just as the Spurs winning post David Robinson doesn't take away from what he helped build by allowing TD to be the guy. It adds to their legacy's.

And yea, he could have lead a team like Lebron. I have no doubt about that. They're different positions, but his 2 way impact and dominance + great leadership? Not a doubt in my mind. He did it in 03, and if he were in his prime in today's game with a lesser roster he certainly could do it now.

valade16
01-08-2017, 03:48 PM
A lot of you saying Duncan are ignoring that the Spurs are excelling even without Duncan. I'm not saying he isn't great but you gotta take into perspective that he's been on insanely great teams as well. Duncan would not be able to lead a team the way a player like LeBron can.

Could you imagine if LeBron was drafted onto a team that had David Robinson lol

kdspurman
01-08-2017, 03:50 PM
Could you imagine if LeBron was drafted onto a team that had David Robinson lol

I'd imagine they would've clashed lol. Lebron came in the league a bit entitled, etc... Robinson and he were quite different.

valade16
01-08-2017, 03:57 PM
I'd imagine they would've clashed lol. Lebron came in the league a bit entitled, etc... Robinson and he were quite different.

David Robinson would have been the perfect mentor both on and off the court. Duncan is amazing, but in NBA History he is up there for being drafted to the best situation possible of any superstar ever, LeBron is up there for being drafted to the worst.

kdspurman
01-08-2017, 04:02 PM
David Robinson would have been the perfect mentor both on and off the court. Duncan is amazing, but in NBA History he is up there for being drafted to the best situation possible of any superstar ever, LeBron is up there for being drafted to the worst.

That's all well and good, but Duncan could've left with Tmac and Hill to Orlando too. The team had question marks that people don't realize at that time, for a couple years. And he was the team for several years, especially in 03.

And you have to want to be mentored. Lebron came in as "the king ". There's no guarantees he welcomes someone else to mentor and him and give him advice. Not everyone accepts that

valade16
01-08-2017, 04:08 PM
That's all well and good, but Duncan could've left with Tmac and Hill to Orlando too. The team had question marks that people don't realize at that time, for a couple years. And he was the team for several years, especially in 03.

And you have to want to be mentored. Lebron came in as "the king ". There's no guarantees he welcomes someone else to mentor and him and give him advice. Not everyone accepts that

I remember, apparently Duncan was very close to signing with Orlando (though they only had money to sign 2/3, Duncan was their #1 target).

While it's true you have to want to be mentored there are zero reports of Bron being immature or causing problems or being conceited when he first got to a Cleveland. It'd be very hard for me to buy an argument that David Robinson and LeBron would not have been incredibly successful to be honest.

kdspurman
01-08-2017, 04:12 PM
I remember, apparently Duncan was very close to signing with Orlando (though they only had money to sign 2/3, Duncan was their #1 target).

While it's true you have to want to be mentored there are zero reports of Bron being immature or causing problems or being conceited when he first got to a Cleveland. It'd be very hard for me to buy an argument that David Robinson and LeBron would not have been incredibly successful to be honest.

I remember something how they would've made it work to get all 3. He def was close tho

And early on? I mean David was only with Tim for 6 years. Lebron wasn't a defensive guy when he came in. Tim and David made one of the greatest defensive units in our time. That was their staple. Teams couldn't do much with those guys in the middle.

Young Lebron was great at driving. He couldn't shoot the ball, defend, or do the things he does now. It's not prime Lebron we're talking about. Prime Lebron and Robinson I can get. Not young Lebron tho imo

koreancabbage
01-08-2017, 05:01 PM
Easily to build around Lebron.

Duncan is a generational player in his own right but in this day and age, its still easier to build a team around Lebron.

Kobe last, even though he is as talented of a scorer in his own right, and when he wants to be like an all-around player, he chooses to shoot and tougher to find players that suit his game.

imho

Redrum187
01-08-2017, 05:34 PM
Duncan is tied for my favorite player of all time, so I'm a homer and pick him.

KnicksorBust
01-08-2017, 06:43 PM
It is impossible to be bad with any of them so to me it comes down to who is the easiest to build around. Up until 5 years ago I might say duncan and even tho Duncans first few years are far superior, Lebron at his best is better. By a hair I will take Lebron. The modern game suits him perfectly.

IKnowHoops
01-08-2017, 08:03 PM
You're the GM of a team that is rebuilding, and these three big talents are up for grabs in the same fantasy draft. Who do you take first in the draft to build your franchise around?

My work pal asked me this question today. I know there's been similar ones before, but I think there is a lot of contrast between these three players. Each one has strengths, each has weaknesses, different impact, different careers as we know, with LeBron's still ongoing.

I thought about it for a while, but I went with Kobe. Call me biased, but I think he is definitely the best scorer of the three and on a team that is rebuilding you need something for fans to be excited about. Kobe has been criticized for his team leadership, ball-hog style, and his poor efficiency, also his defense. But he is definitely a great scorer with killer instinct, athleticism and did show some promise of distributing the ball in flashes throughout his career and as well as some nice plays on defense in the heat of the moment. Kobe's attitude is also hard to combat, but he won 5 championships, went to two more finals but lost, and was part of a great duo with Shaq. In this scenario, there is no Shaq yet. Kobe played his whole career with the Lakers, with some rough patches and trade rumors here and there.

Tim Duncan had some big nights early in his career, afro and all, and is known for being a great professional, the epitome of the "ego-less" superstar, with a stellar post game, strong defense, and overall reliability. He has 5 championships as well, nearly 6, and played for the Spurs his whole career. Duncan and Kobe played against each other in a good rivalry, with each side coming out on top at different times.

Then, LeBron James. He played several years with the Cavaliers, is arguably the most unstoppable player of the three, and the most well-rounded (passing, scoring, defense, leadership). He has been criticized for his lack of 'clutch' DNA, but has been in 6 straight NBA finals and has won 3 championships, with another Finals appearance likely this season. Of the three, LeBron has had the least amount of injuries/most longevity.

Here are their career stats:
Kobe: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
Duncan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html
LeBron: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Who would you go with? I know there are plenty of other great players to choose from to spark a franchise rebuild, but just between these three, please. I know my choice might get flamed, but Kobe would score a lot of points, though I could see how he is not as helpful as a teammate as the other two.

Yeah, your right, Lebron really wouldn't bring that to a city...WHAT?!?!...:laugh:

IKnowHoops
01-08-2017, 08:13 PM
I'd imagine they would've clashed lol. Lebron came in the league a bit entitled, etc... Robinson and he were quite different.

No they would of made sweet music together on the court. Lebron would of respected Drobs greatness and Drob is a very laid back person. Hebron came into the league laid back. David would of earned Brons respect out the gate, became his father figure, and the two would of balled. If they would of both been able to come into the league together like Shaq and Penny, they would of won many many rings.

IKnowHoops
01-08-2017, 08:18 PM
I remember, apparently Duncan was very close to signing with Orlando (though they only had money to sign 2/3, Duncan was their #1 target).

While it's true you have to want to be mentored there are zero reports of Bron being immature or causing problems or being conceited when he first got to a Cleveland. It'd be very hard for me to buy an argument that David Robinson and LeBron would not have been incredibly successful to be honest.

This would be one of the best superstar personality matches you could possibly make. The most respectful and respected big man in the game who runs the floor like a dear goes after all shots and stays in the weight room year around, with another super athlete who loves to pass, needs to win, and is great at making others better?

They would be stockton to Malone on plutonium.

IKnowHoops
01-08-2017, 08:20 PM
I remember something how they would've made it work to get all 3. He def was close tho

And early on? I mean David was only with Tim for 6 years. Lebron wasn't a defensive guy when he came in. Tim and David made one of the greatest defensive units in our time. That was their staple. Teams couldn't do much with those guys in the middle.

Young Lebron was great at driving. He couldn't shoot the ball, defend, or do the things he does now. It's not prime Lebron we're talking about. Prime Lebron and Robinson I can get. Not young Lebron tho imo

Young Lebron got to the finals. Give him Drob and they could of beaten the Spurs.

Vee-Rex
01-08-2017, 09:12 PM
Young LeBron was nowhere near as "entitled" as people make him out to be. He was always pretty sensitive to criticism, though. And he used his own remarkable potential and stardom as a shield. Don't assume that he was too self-centered to be mentored by a legend such as D-Rob.

The crazy media hype wasn't great but it was handled very well in his early years (especially his rookie year with Paul Silas as coach. I have no doubt he would've been perfectly fine working with D-Rob and Pop). After Silas was fired, expectations grew with Mike Brown in LeBron's 3rd/4th season. THAT'S when we usually saw the ego from young Bron - when people criticized him.

Wade n Fade
01-08-2017, 09:27 PM
I would take Duncan. Although LeBron is the better player when it's all said and done, Duncan is a different type of building block. He took less money while the Spurs contended. If the situation is similar in this hypothetical, then you will have a contender and cap space management is important. He is the most selfless player amongst the choices. His game aged pretty nicely. He won't be a diva. Unlike Kobe, Duncan won't throw teammates under the bus so quick. Kobe will chuck many shots as well. Duncan is the best winner of the three as well. By that, I meant he is a classy person and won't be arrogant about winning.

Shammyguy3
01-08-2017, 09:33 PM
Duncan

Jeffy25
01-08-2017, 11:50 PM
Bron, then Duncan right behind him.


Kobe isn't even close here.

tredigs
01-08-2017, 11:53 PM
I would take Duncan. Although LeBron is the better player when it's all said and done, Duncan is a different type of building block. He took less money while the Spurs contended. If the situation is similar in this hypothetical, then you will have a contender and cap space management is important. He is the most selfless player amongst the choices. His game aged pretty nicely. He won't be a diva. Unlike Kobe, Duncan won't throw teammates under the bus so quick. Kobe will chuck many shots as well. Duncan is the best winner of the three as well. By that, I meant he is a classy person and won't be arrogant about winning.

100%

Vee-Rex
01-09-2017, 12:34 AM
Do you guys think if you draft Duncan into a terrible/losing situation without a hall of fame coach, he'd end up exactly the same?

tredigs
01-09-2017, 02:32 AM
Do you guys think if you draft Duncan into a terrible/losing situation without a hall of fame coach, he'd end up exactly the same?
No, but he may be seen as a greater player.

Shammyguy3
01-09-2017, 02:33 AM
The thing with Duncan, is you get elite defense for 15 years from the moment he steps on the court. Lebrun gave you elite defensive teams as an anchor for what, 2 maybe 3 years tops. That plus his elite offensive game, which was not limited to pick and rolls or isolation post-ups but encompassed everything an offense big needs to do, makes it a slight edge to Timmy already. Then factor in his leadership, which I take over Lebrons based on his quietness on the court and him adapting from very different types of NBA basketball over its evolution without a peep and it's not debatable to me

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 02:57 AM
The difference to me probably comes down to offense being greater than defense from a star player imo. Lebron was clearly the more impactful offensive player (while Duncan defensive) but I value one a little more than the other. He was both higher volume and more efficient, he always carried such a major load. To me the offensive gap is just too big of a difference not to take Lebron in the end.

I get the intangibles argument for Duncan but I just prefer the more productive player overall, especially when the offensive gap favors him to this extent.

PhillyFaninLA
01-09-2017, 07:00 AM
Do you guys think if you draft Duncan into a terrible/losing situation without a hall of fame coach, he'd end up exactly the same?

You can make the case the difference between Duncan's career and Camby's career is two things....Duncan in college longer and Duncan have a great coach from day 1.

This is always a factor for any young player

ewing
01-09-2017, 07:23 AM
You can make the case the difference between Duncan's career and Camby's career is two things....Duncan in college longer and Duncan have a great coach from day 1.

This is always a factor for any young player

you could, it'd be a pretty ****** case though. does Pop have mister miyagi like healing powers?

Giannis94
01-09-2017, 08:21 AM
Embiid

ugottabjoshinme
01-09-2017, 10:33 AM
1. Lebron
2. Duncan
3. Kobe

PowerHouse
01-09-2017, 10:42 AM
Do you guys think if you draft Duncan into a terrible/losing situation without a hall of fame coach, he'd end up exactly the same?

He would prolly end up with KG's career.

PhillyFaninLA
01-09-2017, 11:54 AM
you could, it'd be a pretty ****** case though. does Pop have mister miyagi like healing powers?

Are you seriously saying that an NBA coach and college experience don't play a role in development, which is the point I was making

ewing
01-09-2017, 12:13 PM
Are you seriously saying that an NBA coach and college experience don't play a role in development, which is the point I was making

i am saying Camby was hurt a lot. He also was a different player then Timmy (much lighter, no refined post game, ran the floor better, played above the rim more) but he wasn't going an all time great career playing 70 games twice in his first 10 years

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 12:34 PM
The difference to me probably comes down to offense being greater than defense from a star player imo. Lebron was clearly the more impactful offensive player (while Duncan defensive) but I value one a little more than the other. He was both higher volume and more efficient, he always carried such a major load. To me the offensive gap is just too big of a difference not to take Lebron in the end.

I get the intangibles argument for Duncan but I just prefer the more productive player overall, especially when the offensive gap favors him to this extent.

So you would prefer say... a Magic Johnson type to an Oscar Robertson type? :)

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 12:35 PM
No, but he may be seen as a greater player.

Completely disagree. What makes him top 5 GOAT is the individual and team accomplishments. If you take that away from him and he doesn't get to start his career with Drob and Pop it becomes way harder for him to reach those thresholds.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 12:37 PM
Are you seriously saying that an NBA coach and college experience don't play a role in development, which is the point I was making

Are you seriously comparing Camby and Duncan?

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 12:39 PM
He would prolly end up with KG's career.

No way. I am 100% a believer in the Duncan mystique. It's the rare voodoo that I believe. His style of egoless hard-work and team basketball would seep into his teammates over time and he would turn any franchise into a winner.

ewing
01-09-2017, 01:26 PM
Maybe if Paul Salis drafted Tim Duncan he would of had Greg Popovich's career

kdspurman
01-09-2017, 01:36 PM
No way. I am 100% a believer in the Duncan mystique. It's the rare voodoo that I believe. His style of egoless hard-work and team basketball would seep into his teammates over time and he would turn any franchise into a winner.

I think the same. He's super easy to build around. Anyone who played with him would've benefited. Super coachable, he didn't need to be coddled or anything, and would've set right example for younger guys coming in. He was like that in College too. So there's no reason to think the NBA was going to change him, at least in that regard. He's wired very differently than other superstars.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 01:44 PM
The biggest thing with Duncan is he gets way too much credit when they win and zero slight against him when they lose. He's been the Spurs best player by far but it's not fair that we ignore the fact he played with Parker, Gino, Bowen, guys like Horry who hit clutch shots for the Spurs, etc., It's almost like if it were LeBron, he'd get bashed for even having good teammates like the ones Duncan had. This has always been tricky with Duncan because he's such a great player who you want to root for but I don't believe he is as transcendent as LeBron is and will be. Even when you take a look at the Spurs the past decade, Duncan had an insane amount of help. His numbers definitely went down playing under that system but I have difficulty seeing that Duncan being able to lead a team on the level LeBron was and is capable of throughout the years. We're going through the same thing with Kawhi. He's certainly an excellent player but he'll never get blamed for losing games and on the contrary, will receive a massive amount of credit when they do win. Their demeanor just makes them impossible to hate. I'd go with LeBron easily here. I love Duncan but there is no chance he becomes a better player if he did not land with the Spurs.

kdspurman
01-09-2017, 02:06 PM
The biggest thing with Duncan is he gets way too much credit when they win and zero slight against him when they lose.

He gets less slight than others because how often have you seen them in a playoff series where he didn't bring it? He's one of those guys who got better in the post season. And well, he plays on the Spurs. You bring up he doesn't get any slight, but it works both ways. He didn't get nearly the praises in the media either. Yes he was regarded as the GOAT PF, etc... But he and the team as a whole were always under the radar, underappreciated, etc... So it works both ways.



He's been the Spurs best player by far but it's not fair that we ignore the fact he played with Parker, Gino, Bowen, guys like Horry who hit clutch shots for the Spurs, etc., It's almost like if it were LeBron, he'd get bashed for even having good teammates like the ones Duncan had.

Re: his teammates, yes at times during his 19 year career he had good teammates. Parker came in, he wasn't anything really special. It took time to develop. Manu was great overseas, but it took time for his game to translate to the NBA level. Then you name Bowen/Horry, these are role players/vets that were definitely valuable. Before them, it was Elliot/Avery/Robinson/Elie, guys at the end or the latter half of their careers that won a championship. Who was the common denominator between those? Of course you need talent to win. But it helps to have a leader like him. It creates an amazing environment, that you don't get in damn near any other lockerroom.



His numbers definitely went down playing under that system but I have difficulty seeing that Duncan being able to lead a team on the level LeBron was and is capable of throughout the years. This has always been tricky with Duncan because he's such a great player who you want to root for but I don't believe he is as transcendent as LeBron is and will be. Even when you take a look at the Spurs the past decade, Duncan had an insane amount of help.

Lebron won his titles in Miami & Cleveland, with similar talent to Duncan, maybe even higher tbh. Are you saying Duncan wouldn't have been able to take those early Cleveland teams to the playoffs like Lebron did? Cause i'd argue against that strongly.



We're going through the same thing with Kawhi. He's certainly an excellent player but he'll never get blamed for losing games and on the contrary, will receive a massive amount of credit when they do win. Their demeanor just makes them impossible to hate. I'd go with LeBron easily here. I love Duncan but there is no chance he becomes a better player if he did not land with the Spurs.

Kawhi has already been blamed, for that Clippers series in particular, and even last year against OKC a bit. You just won't hear the media going crazy with it, because it's the Spurs. But to the fans/analysts who actually follow the game a bit, you can bet there was blame. Just don't expect it on ESPN or any major sports outlet. But it happens by those who pay attention for sure and aren't just looking for views/ratings

tredigs
01-09-2017, 02:10 PM
Bear in mind that before Duncan, Popovich was an assistant coach (well, he led their ~15 win tanking season in order to try to get Duncan) and the Spurs were an organization with exactly 0 titles and 0 Finals appearances. Everybody KNEW Duncan would be a legend while he was still at Wake. He was better than NBA All Stars for multiple seasons in college, and if not for a promise to his mother could have easily shown that and had even more stats piled up than he does. A top 2 way player in the game and top-5 in MVP voting right out of the gate season 1. Took him WELL over a decade to slow down. Took significant paycuts for the betterment of his team. Not once did an issue arise between him and management or a coach - even an assistant. Those things can not be taken lightly when talking about a KNOWN generational talent of his stature. He had every reason in the world to be the Diva of NBA Divas. He said "nope, just here to win". '03 was the best "one-man-show" playoff run in history in my opinion. And went through peak Shaq/Kobe among countless other Hall Of Famers in their prime in the gauntlet that is the West playoffs to boot. To accomplish what he/they did in the West is no ****ing joke.

In retrospect, I'm not going to gamble. I'm taking Duncan, the silent assassin.

PhillyFaninLA
01-09-2017, 02:31 PM
i am saying Camby was hurt a lot. He also was a different player then Timmy (much lighter, no refined post game, ran the floor better, played above the rim more) but he wasn't going an all time great career playing 70 games twice in his first 10 years

I misunderstood that because you didn't say anything close to that...you said


Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
you could, it'd be a pretty ****** case though. does Pop have mister miyagi like healing powers?

PhillyFaninLA
01-09-2017, 02:36 PM
Are you seriously comparing Camby and Duncan?

Yes, but not to the degree you may be thinking....I am making a point about immediate impact and had much better Duncan's fundamentals are then Camby's. The initial point was because Ewing implied (at least from my understanding) that coaching is irrelevant to a players development, and I was trying to get him to clarify if he really was saying that coaching and more time in college was irrelevant.

Camby was in college less and played for lesser coaches, and he never completely developed and maximized his skills....Duncan by being in college longer and having better coaches maximized his potential. That is the point I was making (or trying to) with my comparison.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 02:57 PM
He gets less slight than others because how often have you seen them in a playoff series where he didn't bring it? He's one of those guys who got better in the post season. And well, he plays on the Spurs. You bring up he doesn't get any slight, but it works both ways. He didn't get nearly the praises in the media either. Yes he was regarded as the GOAT PF, etc... But he and the team as a whole were always under the radar, underappreciated, etc... So it works both ways.



He's been the Spurs best player by far but it's not fair that we ignore the fact he played with Parker, Gino, Bowen, guys like Horry who hit clutch shots for the Spurs, etc., It's almost like if it were LeBron, he'd get bashed for even having good teammates like the ones Duncan had.
Re: his teammates, yes at times during his 19 year career he had good teammates. Parker came in, he wasn't anything really special. It took time to develop. Manu was great overseas, but it took time for his game to translate to the NBA level. Then you name Bowen/Horry, these are role players/vets that were definitely valuable. Before them, it was Elliot/Avery/Robinson/Elie, guys at the end or the latter half of their careers that won a championship. Who was the common denominator between those? Of course you need talent to win. But it helps to have a leader like him. It creates an amazing environment, that you don't get in damn near any other lockerroom.


His numbers definitely went down playing under that system but I have difficulty seeing that Duncan being able to lead a team on the level LeBron was and is capable of throughout the years. This has always been tricky with Duncan because he's such a great player who you want to root for but I don't believe he is as transcendent as LeBron is and will be. Even when you take a look at the Spurs the past decade, Duncan had an insane amount of help.
Lebron won his titles in Miami & Cleveland, with similar talent to Duncan, maybe even higher tbh. Are you saying Duncan wouldn't have been able to take those early Cleveland teams to the playoffs like Lebron did? Cause i'd argue against that strongly.


We're going through the same thing with Kawhi. He's certainly an excellent player but he'll never get blamed for losing games and on the contrary, will receive a massive amount of credit when they do win. Their demeanor just makes them impossible to hate. I'd go with LeBron easily here. I love Duncan but there is no chance he becomes a better player if he did not land with the Spurs.
Kawhi has already been blamed, for that Clippers series in particular, and even last year against OKC a bit. You just won't hear the media going crazy with it, because it's the Spurs. But to the fans/analysts who actually follow the game a bit, you can bet there was blame. Just don't expect it on ESPN or any major sports outlet. But it happens by those who pay attention for sure and aren't just looking for views/ratings
Last edited by kdspurman; Today at 01:09 PM.

1) No, he gets less slight because people don't like to hate on him. He's such a nice guy. No one ever said Tim Duncan choked that last shot over Battier. If it were LeBron, we'd be hearing it still. And they are under the radar because they are boring.. not because they weren't good. Spurs aren't known for being flashy but they are one of three teams you had to watch out for every season and everyone knew that.

2) Doesn't change the fact that he's had some incredible players through his journey with the Spurs. It's not like Tim kept dominating year after year and won. It was through a span of years that he accumulated five rings. We saw the development of great players such as Parker, Manu, and Kawhi. Hell, there was a discussion were a few PSD posters said Manu would have been better than AI with his own squad. I don't believe that narrative but Manu was a beast.

3) Never said he wouldn't take them to the playoffs but let's not act as if they would have been a feared team. At that time, Duncan would be going up against the Pistons, the Heat, the Celtics, and the Magic. I don't see how Duncan gets past the Celtics or the Pistons. Heat (05-06) would have beaten them. Magic is tricky but prime Dwight was NO JOKE and they had snipers on that roster. They wouldn't win a ring, IMO. And which coaches are we talking about here? Duncan benefited from the rest Pop allowed him to have. Sorry but Mike Brown's most infamous play was: Give LeBron the ball and get out. No way Duncan would develop under Mike's tutelage.

4) I've rarely heard of Kawhi getting blamed.. The other day, he missed two shots and I bet the majority of NBA fans didn't care or know about it. But when they win, it's "Kawhi locked up LeBron" and all that nonsense. He's a great player but Duncan nor Kawhi were never held to the standards that LeBron were held to. That in a large part has to do with the media but also Duncan's relatively stoic demeanor. It also has to do with the fact that most just hold LeBron to a higher standard because of how great he is.

Like I said, it's tough picking against Duncan but it's difficult to ignore how their careers manifested. You can give Duncan credit for being the center in creating that Spurs foundation but LeBron never had that opportunity to begin with until he went to Miami and created one. Hell, Spurs are still a top three team in the NBA right now. That doesn't happen because they weren't good without Duncan but because they have a winning culture.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 03:00 PM
If LeBron is a diva and has won three rings (one less than Duncan at the same age), then he's done a great job and management should LISTEN to him more. I mean, are we judging them by their effectiveness or how quiet they are? As for the paycuts.. they happened when Duncan was much in the latter part of his career and was clearly not worth the max contracts. He made enough to where he just wanted to win. He was making max or near max at his prime -- which Lebron is still at. Furthermore, LeBron wants more because he deserves more. Can anyone argue that LeBron even at age $30 million is not underpaid? Hell, I think NBA as an entirety owe LeBron at 5% fee. Milsap wanted $35 million for next season.. Yeah, this bum thinks he's worth that much because of what he generates? PLEASE. It's players who revolutionized the game and those players are LeBron/Kobe. No disrespect to Duncan, though.

ewing
01-09-2017, 03:16 PM
I misunderstood that because you didn't say anything close to that...you said


Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
you could, it'd be a pretty ****** case though. does Pop have mister miyagi like healing powers?

not my fault you missed the reference

valade16
01-09-2017, 03:23 PM
Bear in mind that before Duncan, Popovich was an assistant coach (well, he led their ~15 win tanking season in order to try to get Duncan) and the Spurs were an organization with exactly 0 titles and 0 Finals appearances. Everybody KNEW Duncan would be a legend while he was still at Wake. He was better than NBA All Stars for multiple seasons in college, and if not for a promise to his mother could have easily shown that and had even more stats piled up than he does. A top 2 way player in the game and top-5 in MVP voting right out of the gate season 1. Took him WELL over a decade to slow down. Took significant paycuts for the betterment of his team. Not once did an issue arise between him and management or a coach - even an assistant. Those things can not be taken lightly when talking about a KNOWN generational talent of his stature. He had every reason in the world to be the Diva of NBA Divas. He said "nope, just here to win". '03 was the best "one-man-show" playoff run in history in my opinion. And went through peak Shaq/Kobe among countless other Hall Of Famers in their prime in the gauntlet that is the West playoffs to boot. To accomplish what he/they did in the West is no ****ing joke.

In retrospect, I'm not going to gamble. I'm taking Duncan, the silent assassin.

It's funny that both the generally considered genius coaches (Pop and Belichek) actually didn't win anything or were unknowns before the arrival of Duncan and Brady.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 03:27 PM
The biggest thing with Duncan is he gets way too much credit when they win and zero slight against him when they lose. He's been the Spurs best player by far but it's not fair that we ignore the fact he played with Parker, Gino, Bowen, guys like Horry who hit clutch shots for the Spurs, etc.,.

Okay I'm sorry but I look at that list and I am not blown away. Like "OH MAH GAWDDZ HE HAD TONY PARKER IN HIS PRIME!!! RINGZZ." Parker is one of the luckiest players in NBA History. There have been a lot of fast players in NBA History but few were as successful as TP. I'm convinced a LOT of different PGs could have been Tony Parker. Like a lot. He couldn't shoot. Was a mediocre defender. Could score at the rim. Yet he was one of the leaders in points in the paint and won multiple rings and a Finals MVP. Come on now. There have been a lot of Bowen's. His defense was special yes but offensively he was a corner 3 or nothing. Horry made how many all-star teams? What legendary coaching resume did Pop have before Duncan? He's the lucky one to get gifted one of the 5 greatest players of all-time. A superstar who actually puts up with his style of coaching. Could Pop and Shaq have coexisted? Who knows? Duncan was the foundation that built that franchise and turned the sum of those parts into far greater than they were as individual pieces. Now it's on auto-pilot which is a testament to Pop.

Yes, but not to the degree you may be thinking....I am making a point about immediate impact and had much better Duncan's fundamentals are then Camby's. The initial point was because Ewing implied (at least from my understanding) that coaching is irrelevant to a players development, and I was trying to get him to clarify if he really was saying that coaching and more time in college was irrelevant.

Camby was in college less and played for lesser coaches, and he never completely developed and maximized his skills....Duncan by being in college longer and having better coaches maximized his potential. That is the point I was making (or trying to) with my comparison.

Gotcha.

More-Than-Most
01-09-2017, 03:29 PM
Lebron
Duncan




















Kobe

tredigs
01-09-2017, 03:29 PM
It's funny that both the generally considered genius coaches (Pop and Belichek) actually didn't win anything or were unknowns before the arrival of Duncan and Brady.

Ditto Phil Jackson and plenty of others. Coaches matter, but basketball in particular is a superstar ran league.

More-Than-Most
01-09-2017, 03:30 PM
Embiid

:nod:

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 03:30 PM
It's funny that both the generally considered genius coaches (Pop and Belichek) actually didn't win anything or were unknowns before the arrival of Duncan and Brady.

In fairness, both have more than proven their genius was more than just those players. 11 wins and 50 wins are virtual locks whether those players are there or not. 11-5 with Cassel and on their way to +50 easily without Duncan.

kdspurman
01-09-2017, 03:31 PM
1) No, he gets less slight because people don't like to hate on him. He's such a nice guy. No one ever said Tim Duncan choked that last shot over Battier. If it were LeBron, we'd be hearing it still. And they are under the radar because they are boring.. not because they weren't good. Spurs aren't known for being flashy but they are one of three teams you had to watch out for every season and everyone knew that.

Duncan also wasn't in his prime years during that shot. He was incredible, but let's face it. It was all adding to his legacy. Never did he have a series like Lebron did against the Mavs during his prime years. He is a nice, quiet, humble guy, so that probably adds to it. But again, he played in SA, and doesn't give the media a reason to give him that kind of attention. He's not on social media, doesn't make any controversial comments, etc...


2) Doesn't change the fact that he's had some incredible players through his journey with the Spurs. It's not like Tim kept dominating year after year and won. It was through a span of years that he accumulated five rings. We saw the development of great players such as Parker, Manu, and Kawhi. Hell, there was a discussion were a few PSD posters said Manu would have been better than AI with his own squad. I don't believe that narrative but Manu was a beast.

Nobody wins year after year, regardless. (if we're talking titles) Even Lebron as we've seen. But they did constantly win enough to put them in the conversation. Manu was a beast, I never denied that. But TD had about 6-8 years before Manu hit that point. People seem to forget about Tim's early years, but he was the team, and he was the system. Everything ran through him.



3) Never said he wouldn't take them to the playoffs but let's not act as if they would have been a feared team. At that time, Duncan would be going up against the Pistons, the Heat, the Celtics, and the Magic. I don't see how Duncan gets past the Celtics or the Pistons. Heat (05-06) would have beaten them. Magic is tricky but prime Dwight was NO JOKE and they had snipers on that roster. They wouldn't win a ring, IMO. And which coaches are we talking about here? Duncan benefited from the rest Pop allowed him to have. Sorry but Mike Brown's most infamous play was: Give LeBron the ball and get out. No way Duncan would develop under Mike's tutelage.

Lebron's Cavs early on weren't a "feared team". The only team who probably had that title was the Pistons, a team which Duncan's Spurs did defeat as well. I see no reason why he couldn't have defeated those teams. Again, they were different positions, but Duncan creates mismatches and matchup issues differently than Lebron. Doesn't mean they'd be worse.

And Re: Brown... Well, Lebron had no real identity other than try to drive through everyone and finish. Duncan didnt' need that kind of development. He spent 4 years in college and his fundamentals were on point. He was NBA ready. Lebron PHYSICALLY was NBA ready, but his game was far from polished. The learning curve for young Lebron & young Duncan is not comparable. He would've made it easier on his teammates due to his BBIQ .


4) I've rarely heard of Kawhi getting blamed.. The other day, he missed two shots and I bet the majority of NBA fans didn't care or know about it. But when they win, it's "Kawhi locked up LeBron" and all that nonsense. He's a great player but Duncan nor Kawhi were never held to the standards that LeBron were held to. That in a large part has to do with the media but also Duncan's relatively stoic demeanor. It also has to do with the fact that most just hold LeBron to a higher standard because of how great he is.

You've rarely heard it, but Spurs fans and serious analysts know what it is. Idk why it matters what standards they're held to. The way you carry yourself will dictate how you're viewed. It doesn't mean Lebron is "greater" than Duncan. It also matters how you perform. Duncan always showed up. He had that miss in the 2013 finals, but he was also in his 16th season. Of course there is some leeway, despite how great he was overall.

If Lebron didn't come in with the hype, the nickname "the king", and all the other stuff in between that was probably childish/regrettable on his end, the backlash likely isn't as bad. That stuff matters.


Like I said, it's tough picking against Duncan but it's difficult to ignore how their careers manifested. You can give Duncan credit for being the center in creating that Spurs foundation but LeBron never had that opportunity to begin with until he went to Miami and created one. Hell, Spurs are still a top three team in the NBA right now. That doesn't happen because they weren't good without Duncan but because they have a winning culture.

They're a top 3 team due to the foundation Duncan helped create/establish. And as good as they are now, they're obviously missing Duncan's presence. Even if it was a 39 year old Duncan.

More-Than-Most
01-09-2017, 03:32 PM
Kobe shouldnt be here... Kobe/TMAC/CP3/Wade would be a much better debate if we were getting a clean slate with no injuries... lebron/duncan are crazy above him

valade16
01-09-2017, 03:54 PM
In fairness, both have more than proven their genius was more than just those players. 11 wins and 50 wins are virtual locks whether those players are there or not. 11-5 with Cassel and on their way to +50 easily without Duncan.

They have. It takes a great coach and a great player combo to become all-time great in most cases.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 03:57 PM
Duncan also wasn't in his prime years during that shot. He was incredible, but let's face it. It was all adding to his legacy. Never did he have a series like Lebron did against the Mavs during his prime years. He is a nice, quiet, humble guy, so that probably adds to it. But again, he played in SA, and doesn't give the media a reason to give him that kind of attention. He's not on social media, doesn't make any controversial comments, etc...



Nobody wins year after year, regardless. (if we're talking titles) Even Lebron as we've seen. But they did constantly win enough to put them in the conversation. Manu was a beast, I never denied that. But TD had about 6-8 years before Manu hit that point. People seem to forget about Tim's early years, but he was the team, and he was the system. Everything ran through him.




Lebron's Cavs early on weren't a "feared team". The only team who probably had that title was the Pistons, a team which Duncan's Spurs did defeat as well. I see no reason why he couldn't have defeated those teams. Again, they were different positions, but Duncan creates mismatches and matchup issues differently than Lebron. Doesn't mean they'd be worse.

And Re: Brown... Well, Lebron had no real identity other than try to drive through everyone and finish. Duncan didnt' need that kind of development. He spent 4 years in college and his fundamentals were on point. He was NBA ready. Lebron PHYSICALLY was NBA ready, but his game was far from polished. The learning curve for young Lebron & young Duncan is not comparable. He would've made it easier on his teammates due to his BBIQ .



You've rarely heard it, but Spurs fans and serious analysts know what it is. Idk why it matters what standards they're held to. The way you carry yourself will dictate how you're viewed. It doesn't mean Lebron is "greater" than Duncan. It also matters how you perform. Duncan always showed up. He had that miss in the 2013 finals, but he was also in his 16th season. Of course there is some leeway, despite how great he was overall.

If Lebron didn't come in with the hype, the nickname "the king", and all the other stuff in between that was probably childish/regrettable on his end, the backlash likely isn't as bad. That stuff matters.

[TWEET]Like I said, it's tough picking against Duncan but it's difficult to ignore how their careers manifested. You can give Duncan credit for being the center in creating that Spurs foundation but LeBron never had that opportunity to begin with until he went to Miami and created one. Hell, Spurs are still a top three team in the NBA right now. That doesn't happen because they weren't good without Duncan but because they have a winning culture.

They're a top 3 team due to the foundation Duncan helped create/establish. And as good as they are now, they're obviously missing Duncan's presence. Even if it was a 39 year old Duncan.[/QUOTE]

1) He wasn't in his prime but the ring the next year was enough to boost him past a few players in the all-time rank. I'm just saying, we never hear anything about his failures but we all remember LeBron's failures. When LeBron won with Miami, they said it was a superteam. Spurs didn't have the same "Big Three" but their overall roster has always been more than a "Big Three."
2) Which is my point. Duncan was never putting up the production James put and he won just one more ring than LeBron did at the end of his prime. That's 5/18 for Duncan and 3/14 for James. We still have to give LeBron time if we're simply evaluating them by rings -- even though Duncan never had the responsibility James had in a few of his rings. I'm not sure how you can debate that but I will expect a response in regard to that.
3) The Pistons beat LeBron through a team effort. Tim Duncan shot 42% and that Finals went to seven games. There is NO CHANCE Tim Duncan would have beaten that Pistons team with the Cavs roster. And when I mentioned Mike Brown, the sole purpose was to propose that he was a terrible coach who wouldn't have brought the best out of the team -- something Duncan was able to do under Pop's tutelage.
4) Duncan always showed up because his teammates also showed up. That's just not fair, man. LeBron on most of his team, 100% failed when LeBron fails. Duncan never was held to that regard. If Duncan has an off night, he had a much more reliable cast of players to rely on. That was NEVER the case for LeBron. Even up to the Miami and current Cleveland days, it still isn't the case. Hell, since LeBron's return to the Cavs (14-16), they are 4-18 when LeBron doesn't play. Spurs would NEVER be 4-18 when Duncan sits (since the arrival of Manu+Parker+Kawhi).
5) You're right; publicity does matter. But it doesn't change the fact that LeBron and Duncan are just not held to the same standard because of who they are. LeBron has changed the game in ways Duncan never has and he was brought up in a terrible system early on his career.
6) I gave Duncan credit for creating it but that doesn't change the fact that he's no longer on that team and they are still a top three team in the league. Do we give credit to Duncan if they win this year as well? That's just not how it works. Hell, Spurs are still a top defensive team in the league. Where do you think Cavs go if LeBron is out? It's just not the same.

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 04:26 PM
So you would prefer say... a Magic Johnson type to an Oscar Robertson type? :)

haha yes I would


No way. I am 100% a believer in the Duncan mystique. It's the rare voodoo that I believe. His style of egoless hard-work and team basketball would seep into his teammates over time and he would turn any franchise into a winner.

I am sorry but if he was stuck here with the teams KG had we just aren't winning a title. I think he is definitely better overall still but the biggest difference in their careers/perception gap is simply where they got drafted imo. We have literally never made the playoffs as an organization without KG.

He certainly might have helped with the intangibles mentioned throughout but this is the Timberwolves we are talking about lol.

PhillyFaninLA
01-09-2017, 04:53 PM
not my fault you missed the reference

hence me saying I misunderstood.....no need to respond this way when I just said the exact words I misunderstood

look! big kids
01-09-2017, 04:56 PM
The Duncan mystique will probably always persist, and rightfully so—as well earned as any, and really, how the hell not to be in love with the guy? But I imagine this is a question that not too long from now will seem anachronistic, peculiar to the conflicted attitudes of our time, which are still recovering from the megalomaniac likes of Kobe and residual from Jordan.

In other words it seems like Lebron's "icon" is still jumping through some hoops in people's heads which aren't necessarily related to basketball. It really isn't, or at any rate in the future won't be, a matter of exhaustive debate who between Duncan and James was the more dominant, and I imagine that with time the other variables will wane in importance.

flea
01-09-2017, 04:58 PM
Duncan easily. Arguably the best defensive player and rebounder in the game's history, better scorer than Lebron, and easiest player in NBA history to build around because of his willingness to play any style and in any role.

Lebron is not easy to build around, will likely leave your franchise to play with his buddies, and does not enjoy competition. He's a unique player but so was Bill Laimbeer, Dominique Wilkins, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, and Penny Hardaway. If I've got a letter from the commish saying he'll allow colluding and/or rig the NBA lottery for my franchise in the 4 drafts prior to picking Lebron AND I get a cut of the endorsement deals Lebron signs then maybe I will consider him.

If I just want to win give me the guy who proved it on the court and not on offseason ESPN specials.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 05:02 PM
LeBron isn't unique.. he's transcendent. Why would you put him among Bill Laimbeer, Wilkins, etc.,? LOL...

flea
01-09-2017, 05:04 PM
LeBron isn't unique.. he's transcendent. Why would you put him among Bill Laimbeer, Wilkins, etc.,? LOL...

I don't need any synonyms for what Duncan was - a winner. You can have your "winner in the game of life" star.

valade16
01-09-2017, 05:06 PM
Duncan easily. Arguably the best defensive player and rebounder in the game's history, better scorer than Lebron, and easiest player in NBA history to build around because of his willingness to play any style and in any role.

Lebron is not easy to build around, will likely leave your franchise to play with his buddies, and does not enjoy competition. He's a unique player but so was Bill Laimbeer, Dominique Wilkins, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, and Penny Hardaway. If I've got a letter from the commish saying he'll allow colluding and/or rig the NBA lottery for my franchise in the 4 drafts prior to picking Lebron AND I get a cut of the endorsement deals Lebron signs then maybe I will consider him.

If I just want to win give me the guy who proved it on the court and not on offseason ESPN specials.

?

kdspurman
01-09-2017, 05:59 PM
?

I think he could score in a wider variety of ways, so he was less predictable. Obviously Lebron scored more, but that was sort of how I read that

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 06:06 PM
Considering Lebrons ability to guard 1-4 could you argue Lebron could defend in a wider variety of ways? I think we all would agree it doesn't make him a better defender though.

kdspurman
01-09-2017, 06:12 PM
Considering Lebrons ability to guard 1-4 could you argue Lebron could defend in a wider variety of ways? I think we all would agree it doesn't make him a better defender though.

What 4s does he really guard? I've always felt he got the benefit of the doubt with his defense. He didn't always give it his all, so idk.

And Duncan defended his man, not to mention defending the rim. He played in an Era with so many talented bigs and always defended them. Lebron wouldn't maybe until crunch time.

I hear your point, but I think it's a bit different

Hawkeye15
01-09-2017, 06:13 PM
While I think LeBron passes Duncan on all time rankings, it's easier to build around a 2 way superstar big man imo, so I go Duncan. I still think LeBron is the better play when all is said and done, but it makes it easier on your team to build around Duncan, who is a top 7 player ever so not really an argument trying to sell me on, "well you say LeBron is better so why not him?"

ewing
01-09-2017, 06:14 PM
hence me saying I misunderstood.....no need to respond this way when I just said the exact words I misunderstood

i was joking, didn't mean to offend

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 06:16 PM
Duncan is not a better scorer than LeBron. Less predictable is due to less attention focused on Duncan as he's not controlling the pace of the game and so he gets a variety of shots that LeBron can't get.

flea
01-09-2017, 06:24 PM
Duncan is not a better scorer than LeBron. Less predictable is due to less attention focused on Duncan as he's not controlling the pace of the game and so he gets a variety of shots that LeBron can't get.

More points/FG% can mean someone is a better scorer, but not necessarily. Easiest example is young Jordan vs. prime Jordan. He was a better scorer later in his career even though he scored less points and had worse FG%. And in his 2nd 3peat he shot more jumpers and had even lower FG% but he was probably at his offensive best at that time.

But you don't even have to take my word for it - the tape tells the story.. Lebron has always been played straight up - even in the 2015 Finals when he was the only scorer who could hurt the Warriors they played him straight up and he shot sub-40%. Playing Duncan straight up even half of his post touches in his prime was just not thinkable because you would lose easily. You're not going to convince anyone who isn't a fanboy that a slasher without a hookshot or jumper and that has mediocre footwork and a solid but not great fadeaway is a better scorer than one of the 4 or 5 best big men scorers ever. PPG be damned.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 06:27 PM
More points/FG% can mean someone is a better scorer, but not necessarily. Easiest example is young Jordan vs. prime Jordan. He was a better scorer later in his career even though he scored less points and had worse FG%. And in his 2nd 3peat he shot more jumpers and had even lower FG% but he was probably at his offensive best at that time.

But you don't even have to take my word for it - the tape tells the story.. Lebron has always been played straight up - even in the 2015 Finals when he was the only scorer who could hurt the Warriors they played him straight up and he shot sub-40%. Playing Duncan straight up even half of his post touches in his prime was just not thinkable because you would lose easily. You're not going to convince anyone who isn't a fanboy that a slasher without a hookshot or jumper and that has mediocre footwork and a solid but not great fadeaway is a better scorer than one of the 4 or 5 best big men scorers ever. PPG be damned.

You're not going to convince anyone Duncan was a better scorer. Defender? You have an easy case. Not scoring. Not even going to bother debating that because it doesn't have to be debated.

Hawkeye15
01-09-2017, 06:30 PM
More points/FG% can mean someone is a better scorer, but not necessarily. Easiest example is young Jordan vs. prime Jordan. He was a better scorer later in his career even though he scored less points and had worse FG%. And in his 2nd 3peat he shot more jumpers and had even lower FG% but he was probably at his offensive best at that time.

But you don't even have to take my word for it - the tape tells the story.. Lebron has always been played straight up - even in the 2015 Finals when he was the only scorer who could hurt the Warriors they played him straight up and he shot sub-40%. Playing Duncan straight up even half of his post touches in his prime was just not thinkable because you would lose easily. You're not going to convince anyone who isn't a fanboy that a slasher without a hookshot or jumper and that has mediocre footwork and a solid but not great fadeaway is a better scorer than one of the 4 or 5 best big men scorers ever. PPG be damned.

in the reverse argument, without feeds, Duncan does what scoring wise? LeBron creates a ton more of his scoring by himself. And every big in history who is an excellent scorer in the post has help sent, Duncan isn't getting extra points for being the 1200th big to see a double team when he catches it.

I am playing devil's advocate. Fact is, LeBron's opponents begged for jumpers. He still scored 27 a night on absolute elite efficiency. And if he actually had the scorer mentality, he would be pushing for the scoring record by age 34-35.

Your Jordan reference is a little un-needed, he kind of doesn't apply to anyone. He spanned from the no defense era of the 80's where all he did was attack the paint, to the hand check era, where he developed a mid range game, etc. Jordan was the most versatile scorer ever. He simply adapted to rule changes. Hell today he would probably shoot 40% from the 3 point line and shoot 18 free throws a game, just because that is what a great scorer on the wing is supposed to do.

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 06:44 PM
What 4s does he really guard? I've always felt he got the benefit of the doubt with his defense. He didn't always give it his all, so idk.

He doesn't much but when he switches on to them etc. it normally isn't attacked as a mismatch. For recent reference I would say switching him onto Draymond in the finals was a true difference maker and his defense/versatility was the reason.

He didn't always give it his all you are right but part of that has to do with the load he carried and coasting to an extent in the rs. His impact defensively has still been good overall and he has proven in the biggest stage he can be a gamechanger on that end when needed.


And Duncan defended his man, not to mention defending the rim. He played in an Era with so many talented bigs and always defended them. Lebron wouldn't maybe until crunch time.

I hear your point, but I think it's a bit different

Part of this has to do with all the extra minutes and responsibility offensively that Lebron carries though. Ya it is usually more in crunch times or when it really matters that Lebron had major impact but that is kind of showing that is his true level when needed.

My point though is that just versatility wise in guarding so many players/positions Lebron can arguably defend in more ways. He can do many things that Duncan can't on that end because of his speed/quickness especially just like Duncan with his skills offensively. What matters is the actual impact not if you arguably could do it in more ways than the other guy.

I am in no way saying Lebron is close to the big man defender Duncan is or that his overall impact is as big. I am saying that the same logic offensively for Duncan being able to do it in more ways is irrelevant too when it comes to judging them as scorers in similar fashion. Lebron carried a bigger load as a scorer and did it more efficiently while Duncan usually had playmakers next to him to help him with said load (plus an amazing system).

flea
01-09-2017, 06:47 PM
in the reverse argument, without feeds, Duncan does what scoring wise? LeBron creates a ton more of his scoring by himself. And every big in history who is an excellent scorer in the post has help sent, Duncan isn't getting extra points for being the 1200th big to see a double team when he catches it.

The same is true for forwards in the post, but not for Lebron. One wonders why.


I am playing devil's advocate. Fact is, LeBron's opponents begged for jumpers. He still scored 27 a night on absolute elite efficiency. And if he actually had the scorer mentality, he would be pushing for the scoring record by age 34-35.

Your Jordan reference is a little un-needed, he kind of doesn't apply to anyone. He spanned from the no defense era of the 80's where all he did was attack the paint, to the hand check era, where he developed a mid range game, etc. Jordan was the most versatile scorer ever. He simply adapted to rule changes. Hell today he would probably shoot 40% from the 3 point line and shoot 18 free throws a game, just because that is what a great scorer on the wing is supposed to do.

Okay then why compare Duncan's prime raw numbers (toughest defensive era ever) to Lebron's prime raw numbers (the era where a 5'6 guard can shoot over 50% from 2 point land on over 20 PPG)? And if we can stipulate that Jordan was a great scorer because of all the things he could do then why can't Lebron do any of them? Why are his jumper, hook shot, and footwork so crappy if he's such a great scorer?

I'm fine admitting Lebron is a better offensive player than Duncan. Not a better scorer, even if he plays in a league made for his sole asset as a scorer.

flea
01-09-2017, 06:53 PM
Considering Lebrons ability to guard 1-4 could you argue Lebron could defend in a wider variety of ways? I think we all would agree it doesn't make him a better defender though.

Argument doesn't hold water unless you're someone like Flashbolt. Lebron can't check 1s and many 2s all over the court, coming off screens, etc. He doesn't have the endurance, agility, or short space quickness to do that. He also can't or is unwilling to check true 4s - otherwise he would have done it years ago instead of forcing the smaller Battier to battle 4s on the glass.

He defends his position, hunts turnovers, and helps on the glass. The rest is mythology pedaled by fawning fans who kiss posters of his biceps before mom tuck them in.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 06:57 PM
Flea is like that one guy who sits on the bench alone in a park and always tells stories about the 1940's and the good ole days where they used to hang clothes on a clothesline. Ahhhh, good times.

flea
01-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Flea is like that one guy who sits on the bench alone in a park and always tells stories about the 1940's and the good ole days where they used to hang clothes on a clothesline. Ahhhh, good times.

No amount of ad jingles for dryer sheets can replicate that fresh breezy smell.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 07:02 PM
No amount of ad jingles for dryer sheets can replicate that fresh breezy smell.

I won't disagree with that

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 07:03 PM
Argument doesn't hold water unless you're someone like Flashbolt. Lebron can't check 1s and many 2s all over the court, coming off screens, etc. He doesn't have the endurance, agility, or short space quickness to do that. He also can't or is unwilling to check true 4s - otherwise he would have done it years ago instead of forcing the smaller Battier to battle 4s on the glass.

He defends his position, hunts turnovers, and helps on the glass. The rest is mythology pedaled by fawning fans who kiss posters of his biceps before mom tuck them in.

He has the ability to do it when needed though, I thought that is what we are talking about. What you actually did/produced is outweighed by simply having the ability to do something in more ways. That's what I am getting at. I agree with you overall Lebron was not the better defender because he didn't consistently produce at as high of a level or in as many ways. I feel the same about their scoring.

Considering Duncan did not score at as high a rate or efficiency as Lebron then we can say it is a myth he was a better scorer too right? What you are capable of doing and what you actually produce are two different things.

valade16
01-09-2017, 07:05 PM
While I think LeBron passes Duncan on all time rankings, it's easier to build around a 2 way superstar big man imo, so I go Duncan. I still think LeBron is the better play when all is said and done, but it makes it easier on your team to build around Duncan, who is a top 7 player ever so not really an argument trying to sell me on, "well you say LeBron is better so why not him?"

Is that still true in today's NBA? Every elite big man talent we've seen drafted in the last 3 or so years has been forced out to the 3pt line and certainly isn't being fed the ball in traditional post-ups.

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 07:08 PM
Is that still true in today's NBA? Every elite big man talent we've seen drafted in the last 3 or so years has been forced out to the 3pt line and certainly isn't being fed the ball in traditional post-ups.

It is definitely a more perimeter oriented game now, it would be really interesting to see an elite big man force come into the league and the impact they would have in comparison.

valade16
01-09-2017, 07:10 PM
It is definitely a more perimeter oriented game now, it would be really interesting to see an elite big man force come into the league and the impact they would have in comparison.

Isn't that Embiid? If he were drafted in say 94 that's exactly what he'd be but in this era he's taking what 3 3PT attempts per game?

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 07:24 PM
Isn't that Embiid? If he were drafted in say 94 that's exactly what he'd be but in this era he's taking what 3 3PT attempts per game?

hmmm I have only watched a few games tbh but ya it might be if he reaches his full potential. If Duncan came into the league today would he have a 3 pt shot is interesting to considering too (not elite but good enough to stretch).

It is tough to compare Embiid as a 2 way force to stars this early though, looking at prospective young guys he would still be the choice to build around as a 2 way big I think (over Wiggins/Russell/Simmons/Ingram/Okafor etc). I am not sure how much they post him up and all of that either but I will keep an eye out for how they use him. I think you can still dominate with an inside force while being able to stretch, maybe the biggest difference is just the range the older guys would have.

IKnowHoops
01-09-2017, 10:27 PM
Argument doesn't hold water unless you're someone like Flashbolt. Lebron can't check 1s and many 2s all over the court, coming off screens, etc. He doesn't have the endurance, agility, or short space quickness to do that. He also can't or is unwilling to check true 4s - otherwise he would have done it years ago instead of forcing the smaller Battier to battle 4s on the glass.

He defends his position, hunts turnovers, and helps on the glass. The rest is mythology pedaled by fawning fans who kiss posters of his biceps before mom tuck them in.

You are on crack my brotha. 19-26 Lebron could easily check and shut down any PG in the league. He had the endurance, he had the agility, he had the quickness, and the best recovery in NBA history. Now please stop talking about ish you don't know about. Go ask prime D-rose why he couldn't score on Lebron when he could get by anyone in the league easily at that time, and that was after these years I'm talking about.

SMH this guy at 31 years old just lead the finals in Pts/reb/asst/stls/blk...you dont think a 25 year old version would have enough endurance to just guard a point guard?!?!?! GTFOHMF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jmaest
01-10-2017, 01:13 AM
As one of the few basketball historians on this site I love this question. IMO you can't go wrong with any of the 3 choices. Depending on your needs or what type of team you're trying to build, you could pick any one of them and be very happy with your pick.

With that said, I would exclude Kobe. Both Lebron and Duncan make the players around them better. Kobe is a pure scorer. Building a franchise from scratch a pure scorer is not going to be my first choice.

Now I'm down to Lebron vs Duncan. Honestly at this point I'm playing the lottery because I'm the luckiest SOB ever. I have the #1 pick in front of me and I get to choose between LBJ or The Big Fundamental. There's literally no wrong choice. Both players are great individual defenders. Both players understand the concept of team defense. Both players have solid fundamental skill sets and both are unselfish--almost to a fault.

I love Duncan but I don't know what I'm going to be able to surround him with right away.

That's why I'm taking Lebron. He's a big physical 3/Point Forward. He's a "point forward". He can run the offense for me and gives me more flexibility with my next few picks. The idea that LBJ can guard 4 positions is just flat out wrong. He can't bang with physical power forwards for 48 minutes. That's not his game. He's not chasing small point guards and he doesn't want to hang out on the perimeter following 2 guards around. The thing is, I don't need him to do any of that. If I was just looking for defense--real defense not NBA overhyped but real world overrated defense--then I'm taking Duncan. But with LBJ I'm getting stellar defense and a commitment to team defense and that's more than enough.

IKnowHoops
01-10-2017, 02:43 AM
Duncan easily. Arguably the best defensive player and rebounder in the game's history, better scorer than Lebron, and easiest player in NBA history to build around because of his willingness to play any style and in any role.

Lebron is not easy to build around, will likely leave your franchise to play with his buddies, and does not enjoy competition. He's a unique player but so was Bill Laimbeer, Dominique Wilkins, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, and Penny Hardaway. If I've got a letter from the commish saying he'll allow colluding and/or rig the NBA lottery for my franchise in the 4 drafts prior to picking Lebron AND I get a cut of the endorsement deals Lebron signs then maybe I will consider him.

If I just want to win give me the guy who proved it on the court and not on offseason ESPN specials.

That was some of the most worthless drivel I have read on PSD in quite some time. Pop your collar player.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 03:19 AM
That was some of the most worthless drivel I have read on PSD in quite some time. Pop your collar player.

I agree. I don't know who this flea person is but there wasn't a single correct statement in his entire post. It's almost as if he created an entire opinion off someone's meme.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 03:29 AM
Is that still true in today's NBA? Every elite big man talent we've seen drafted in the last 3 or so years has been forced out to the 3pt line and certainly isn't being fed the ball in traditional post-ups.

I believe we're going to start coming back full circle on this point. Over the last couple of years we've slowly crept back into a more traditional style of play. Point Guards have become important again, for example.

And I believe the big man style of play will be next. There's already some evidence of it with guys like Cousins and Aldridge. But you're also seeing other guys adjusting their games to have more of a low post presence.

Hawkeye15
01-10-2017, 12:37 PM
Is that still true in today's NBA? Every elite big man talent we've seen drafted in the last 3 or so years has been forced out to the 3pt line and certainly isn't being fed the ball in traditional post-ups.

it is, because of defensive purposes to me. The value of a rim protecting, rebounding big, is hard to gauge.

flea
01-10-2017, 01:20 PM
That was some of the most worthless drivel I have read on PSD in quite some time. Pop your collar player.

Pucker up, buttercup.


I agree. I don't know who this flea person is but there wasn't a single correct statement in his entire post. It's almost as if he created an entire opinion off someone's meme.

Hey man great job on the post. Hope to see you around more to contribute winners like this.

valade16
01-10-2017, 01:30 PM
it is, because of defensive purposes to me. The value of a rim protecting, rebounding big, is hard to gauge.

Certainly defensively yes a rim protecting big will always be valuable. But look at all the bigs taking 3's now:

Towns
Embiid
Marc Gasol
ZBo
LMA
Pau Gasol
Al Horford
Paul Milsap
DeMarcus Cousins
Anthony Davis

Half of those are the young guys and the next generation of bigs, and they are being forced to play on the perimeter instead of in the post on offense.

kdspurman
01-10-2017, 01:45 PM
Certainly defensively yes a rim protecting big will always be valuable. But look at all the bigs taking 3's now:

Towns
Embiid
Marc Gasol
ZBo
LMA
Pau Gasol
Al Horford
Paul Milsap
DeMarcus Cousins
Anthony Davis

Half of those are the young guys and the next generation of bigs, and they are being forced to play on the perimeter instead of in the post on offense.

TD always had the bank shot and the ability to hit the mid range jump shot. Plus, I think people sometimes forget about Duncan when he first came in the league. His ball handling, and face up game were quite good. He was quick and could dribble by guys with ease. His game changed so much, I think it gets lost on people how quick he was.

And one of the great things about him was his ability to adapt to the game and the personnel around him. He was always working on adding things to his game, even up until his last season. He would've thrived in any era, and looking at a guy like Cousins and how he dominates? TD would have been just fine.


I could just see him feasting on these small teams. This TD was so different than the guy we saw the close out his career. Dominated in a much different fashion. He was so smart, he would alter his game however the game sees fit. It's why I think he'd be dominant in w/e era you put him in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCNAEPYNI4w&feature=youtu.be&t=42s

jmaest
01-10-2017, 01:55 PM
TD always had the bank shot and the ability to hit the mid range jump shot. Plus, I think people sometimes forget about Duncan when he first came in the league. His ball handling, and face up game were quite good. He was quick and could dribble by guys with ease. His game changed so much, I think it gets lost on people how quick he was.

And one of the great things about him was his ability to adapt to the game and the personnel around him. He was always working on adding things to his game, even up until his last season. He would've thrived in any era, and looking at a guy like Cousins and how he dominates? TD would have been just fine.


I could just see him feasting on these small teams. This TD was so different than the guy we saw the close out his career. Dominated in a much different fashion. He was so smart, he would alter his game however the game sees fit. It's why I think he'd be dominant in w/e era you put him in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCNAEPYNI4w&feature=youtu.be&t=42s

I agree.

I would also submit that many people have a perception of "big men taking 3's" as a new thing. Actually Bill Laimbeer was pretty decent from behind the 3 point line to the point he had to be guarded close when he was out there.

So your original premise of protecting the paint, the rim, defense, etc all hold water. And the fact that the game has big men taking 3 pointers more than they used to doesn't mean it wasn't always part of the game.

Here's a good article that sort of makes the point.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/960281-the-10-best-three-point-shooting-big-men-in-nba-history

kdspurman
01-10-2017, 02:04 PM
I agree.

I would also submit that many people have a perception of "big men taking 3's" as a new thing. Actually Bill Laimbeer was pretty decent from behind the 3 point line to the point he had to be guarded close when he was out there.

So your original premise of protecting the paint, the rim, defense, etc all hold water. And the fact that the game has big men taking 3 pointers more than they used to doesn't mean it wasn't always part of the game.

Here's a good article that sort of makes the point.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/960281-the-10-best-three-point-shooting-big-men-in-nba-history

Good stuff. I remember Sam Perkins as well, out there shooting the flat footed 3's lol .

I don't think it's a necessity about bigs having to shoot the 3. I think the issue is also so many of these guys lack fundamental skills and footwork in the post, that it's easier for them to just shoot 3's.

A guy like Duncan or Shaq, you put them @ the 5 and surround them with 4 guys who can shoot, and it's hard to argue against them not being successful in today's NBA.

IKnowHoops
01-10-2017, 02:07 PM
I agree. I don't know who this flea person is but there wasn't a single correct statement in his entire post. It's almost as if he created an entire opinion off someone's meme.


Man I almost just left it at that, but I didn't want to be that nice after two consecutive s--- posts from him.

IKnowHoops
01-10-2017, 02:20 PM
TD always had the bank shot and the ability to hit the mid range jump shot. Plus, I think people sometimes forget about Duncan when he first came in the league. His ball handling, and face up game were quite good. He was quick and could dribble by guys with ease. His game changed so much, I think it gets lost on people how quick he was.

And one of the great things about him was his ability to adapt to the game and the personnel around him. He was always working on adding things to his game, even up until his last season. He would've thrived in any era, and looking at a guy like Cousins and how he dominates? TD would have been just fine.


I could just see him feasting on these small teams. This TD was so different than the guy we saw the close out his career. Dominated in a much different fashion. He was so smart, he would alter his game however the game sees fit. It's why I think he'd be dominant in w/e era you put him in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCNAEPYNI4w&feature=youtu.be&t=42s

Trust me, I love Duncan, you know this, and even though I'd take Lebron, you will see I am not arguing against anyone taking Duncan. I watched Duncan very closely. I think he has the best 1-on-1 performance against prime Shaq ever when he outplayed Shaq and guarded Shaq by himself on many occasions in 99 when they Spurs won there first ring.

For meI take Lebron easily, but Duncan is just so good that I just can't argue against him. If you have Tim, your gonna be good. But I would take Drob and Dream over Tim. But I think those three players are all pretty close. I think where Drob and Hakeem separate themselves from Duncan is they were bigger monsters in the middle when it came to blocking and altering shots. They were both faster and more athletic than Tim allowing them to make a few plays that Tim can't make physically. Still Tim had the highest B-ball IQ IMO out of the three and I also liked his mentality on the court over the other two.

Shammyguy3
01-10-2017, 02:21 PM
Being a better scorer means you score more points on less shots. Lebrun does that better than Duncan. Idk how that is debatable. If you want to bring up arsenal of moves, then that's s different point. Rarely do you have a player who is the most versatile scorer also be the best scorer in the game - Michael Jordan and maybe Kareem/Magic?

IKnowHoops
01-10-2017, 02:23 PM
Good stuff. I remember Sam Perkins as well, out there shooting the flat footed 3's lol .

I don't think it's a necessity about bigs having to shoot the 3. I think the issue is also so many of these guys lack fundamental skills and footwork in the post, that it's easier for them to just shoot 3's.

A guy like Duncan or Shaq, you put them @ the 5 and surround them with 4 guys who can shoot, and it's hard to argue against them not being successful in today's NBA.

Is anyone saying that Duncan and Shaq would not be successful in today's NBA? Please point me in their direction.

valade16
01-10-2017, 02:30 PM
Good stuff. I remember Sam Perkins as well, out there shooting the flat footed 3's lol .

I don't think it's a necessity about bigs having to shoot the 3. I think the issue is also so many of these guys lack fundamental skills and footwork in the post, that it's easier for them to just shoot 3's.

A guy like Duncan or Shaq, you put them @ the 5 and surround them with 4 guys who can shoot, and it's hard to argue against them not being successful in today's NBA.

But these to issues are related, one affects the other. They lack footwork and post moves because coaches aren't teaching them those things, they are teaching them to go out to the 3pt line. Embiid, Towns and AD are perfect examples. If they were drafted in say 94 they would have been taught all the post moves and would be encouraged to do that, now they are encouraged to space the floor and shoot 3's.

Duncan is a byproduct of a bygone era, he played 4 years of college and came to the pros very polished. That simply wouldn't happen today (he may be the exception because he promised his mother he would). So a guy of Duncan's talents today wouldn't have got 4 years of development in college learning post moves and when he gets to the NBA he wouldn't be taught those moves.

kdspurman
01-10-2017, 02:30 PM
Is anyone saying that Duncan and Shaq would not be successful in today's NBA? Please point me in their direction.

It was in response to Valade, he didn't say that necessarily, but he said bigs are being forced to play on the perimeter now. I think that has more to do with their fundamental skills than anything personally. They lack those skills that are needed to dominate when teams go small

valade16
01-10-2017, 02:33 PM
I agree.

I would also submit that many people have a perception of "big men taking 3's" as a new thing. Actually Bill Laimbeer was pretty decent from behind the 3 point line to the point he had to be guarded close when he was out there.

So your original premise of protecting the paint, the rim, defense, etc all hold water. And the fact that the game has big men taking 3 pointers more than they used to doesn't mean it wasn't always part of the game.

Here's a good article that sort of makes the point.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/960281-the-10-best-three-point-shooting-big-men-in-nba-history

First the link didn't work but I'd very much like to read it, though chances are I know all the names it will list.

Yes Laimbeer shot 3's, so did Perkins, and Jack Sikma too. And before that Jerry Lucas and Bob McAdoo were shooting from far out (before the 3pt line). There have always been some guys who could shoot 3's as big men. I wasn't trying to say big men shooting 3's is a new phenomenon, I'm trying to say so many of them shooting 3's is.

If you listed all the big men before 2000 who regularly shot 3's or long 2's it would probably be as long as the list of big men who are shooting 3's this very season. Back then it was a + to have a big man who could shoot from deep, now it's almost a necessity.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 02:35 PM
Is anyone saying that Duncan and Shaq would not be successful in today's NBA? Please point me in their direction.

I'm probably beating them up first. But I'm with you.

I don't think I've seen anyone write that anywhere. I believe kdspurman was just making a point.

valade16
01-10-2017, 02:39 PM
It was in response to Valade, he didn't say that necessarily, but he said bigs are being forced to play on the perimeter now. I think that has more to do with their fundamental skills than anything personally. They lack those skills that are needed to dominate when teams go small

Players aren't born with skills, skills are taught. When you say players don't have those skills what you're really saying is nobody taught them those skills. Does anyone seriously believe that all the bigs in today's NBA are completely incapable of learning post moves or footwork? Of course they aren't, they just aren't being taught it, especially from an early age.

Listen to Shaq talk about him growing up, he will always talk about how his dad forced him to learn all these different moves. He learned those skills his whole life and career.

Players today aren't being taught post moves from middle school all the way to the pros. That is neither a good nor bad thing, it is what it is. Sure if you took a guy like Shaq or Duncan with their upbringing and put them in the NBA today they'd dominate because they have learned those skills.

I'm more interested in the 7 or 8 year old future Duncan or Shaq currently alive who is not being taught the same things those guys were. I'm not so much saying Duncan or Shaq couldn't dominate, I'm saying because of what kids and players are being taught, it's likely we never see another Duncan or Shaq for a very long time.

kdspurman
01-10-2017, 02:42 PM
Trust me, I love Duncan, you know this, and even though I'd take Lebron, you will see I am not arguing against anyone taking Duncan. I watched Duncan very closely. I think he has the best 1-on-1 performance against prime Shaq ever when he outplayed Shaq and guarded Shaq by himself on many occasions in 99 when they Spurs won there first ring.

For meI take Lebron easily, but Duncan is just so good that I just can't argue against him. If you have Tim, your gonna be good. But I would take Drob and Dream over Tim. But I think those three players are all pretty close. I think where Drob and Hakeem separate themselves from Duncan is they were bigger monsters in the middle when it came to blocking and altering shots. They were both faster and more athletic than Tim allowing them to make a few plays that Tim can't make physically. Still Tim had the highest B-ball IQ IMO out of the three and I also liked his mentality on the court over the other two.

I hear ya. I know your stance on this dude. :) I respect that. Plus I love D-Rob too, so we're in the same boat there. & you actually think more highly of him than I do, which is cool w/me.

At the end of the day, if you start your franchise with either of these guys, you'll be in good shape. It becomes a matter of preference for some.

I feel like Tim is the complete package, on the court/off the court/in the lockerroom, etc... just all around. You lose some of the limelight vs someone like Lebron or Kobe, but I guess being a Spurs fan for so long, and how successful they've been, it doesn't bother me. Peter Holt I'm sure has made a pretty penny since becoming their owner.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 02:47 PM
But these to issues are related, one affects the other. They lack footwork and post moves because coaches aren't teaching them those things, they are teaching them to go out to the 3pt line. Embiid, Towns and AD are perfect examples. If they were drafted in say 94 they would have been taught all the post moves and would be encouraged to do that, now they are encouraged to space the floor and shoot 3's.

Duncan is a byproduct of a bygone era, he played 4 years of college and came to the pros very polished. That simply wouldn't happen today (he may be the exception because he promised his mother he would). So a guy of Duncan's talents today wouldn't have got 4 years of development in college learning post moves and when he gets to the NBA he wouldn't be taught those moves.

You make a valid point. Although I think you're being a bit too harsh to make a point. I also think you're removing the culpability from the players themselves and that's not right.

These bigs are all trying to play like Jordan or Kobe or Curry or whoever else they watched growing up. Maybe coaches are teaching them the fundamentals, maybe they're not. But it doesn't matter because these guys have no interest in learning them as they grow up anyway.

When physicality was removed from the game to allow for more High School'ers/1 & Done'ers/Europeans it opened things up for athleticism. It's a trade off. An athletic game has some style to it that I truly enjoy. An imposing physical game is also lots of fun to watch. Whatever you like better is up to you. Not debating that.

The point I'm making is that the change was made to accommodate the talent pool--and maybe more importantly--the pool where most of the talent was going to be coming from. That said, there are plenty of guys in the league today who actually have great "big man" fundamentals so the opportunity to learn is certainly there.

kdspurman
01-10-2017, 03:04 PM
Players aren't born with skills, skills are taught. When you say players don't have those skills what you're really saying is nobody taught them those skills. Does anyone seriously believe that all the bigs in today's NBA are completely incapable of learning post moves or footwork? Of course they aren't, they just aren't being taught it, especially from an early age.

Listen to Shaq talk about him growing up, he will always talk about how his dad forced him to learn all these different moves. He learned those skills his whole life and career.

Players today aren't being taught post moves from middle school all the way to the pros. That is neither a good nor bad thing, it is what it is. Sure if you took a guy like Shaq or Duncan with their upbringing and put them in the NBA today they'd dominate because they have learned those skills.

I'm more interested in the 7 or 8 year old future Duncan or Shaq currently alive who is not being taught the same things those guys were. I'm not so much saying Duncan or Shaq couldn't dominate, I'm saying because of what kids and players are being taught, it's likely we never see another Duncan or Shaq for a very long time.

All fair points. Admittedly, I don't watch college b-ball, so I don't know what gets taught there, in which programs, etc... But I think young big guys should take a little of the onus too to not settle for just wanting to shoot the ball, but to also realize the opportunity they have. We've seen guys spend time w/Hakeem and what not, and even Duncan at times in the Summer. So there are resources out there

IKnowHoops
01-10-2017, 03:06 PM
I could make the argument that if David Robinson was told to play like a wing, he would of been even more dominant. Just giving David the room from a coaching standpoint to take 3's when your open would of opened up the court even more for him. He had a great jumper for a big man too because he was a 6'3 guard and then shot up 10 inches in one year while at the Navy.

AD is obviously just fine when he's healthy. He's already put up an all time like top 10 PER year. I think keeping him in sole in the post would limit his game.

valade16
01-10-2017, 03:06 PM
All fair points. Admittedly, I don't watch college b-ball, so I don't know what gets taught there, in which programs, etc... But I think young big guys should take a little of the onus too to not settle for just wanting to shoot the ball, but to also realize the opportunity they have. We've seen guys spend time w/Hakeem and what not, and even Duncan at times in the Summer. So there are resources out there

Unfortunately college coaches can only teach them so much as usually players are 1 and done or at most stay there for 2 years.

YAALREADYKNO
01-10-2017, 03:11 PM
Lebron

jmaest
01-10-2017, 03:17 PM
I could make the argument that if David Robinson was told to play like a wing, he would of been even more dominant. Just giving David the room from a coaching standpoint to take 3's when your open would of opened up the court even more for him. He had a great jumper for a big man too because he was a 6'3 guard and then shot up 10 inches in one year while at the Navy.

AD is obviously just fine when he's healthy. He's already put up an all time like top 10 PER year. I think keeping him in sole in the post would limit his game.

DRob was a 7'2", highly skilled, highly athletic center. Putting him on the wing would have detracted from what he accomplished IMO. I'm a big believer in you are what you work at. DRob was dominant and quite frankly the most underrated Center of all time because of the way he played. Again, my opinion.

That said I agree with your underlying point. Or maybe I'm reading into what you're saying too much but I think you're point is that a player like DRob, with his skill set, would have been able to adjust to today's game easily and probably be more dominant than he was back then. And on that point I do agree.

Footwork, fundamentals, mid-range jumper, defense, taking it to the basket, etc. Very few players in general can do all of that today, let alone big men.

mngopher35
01-10-2017, 03:20 PM
I think a player to discuss currently is okafor with his post game. He obviously lacks defense but IMO just that post ability would make him a highly sought after asset I woulda think ath is age right? Not so sure that's true today though

Hawkeye15
01-10-2017, 04:54 PM
DRob was a 7'2", highly skilled, highly athletic center. Putting him on the wing would have detracted from what he accomplished IMO. I'm a big believer in you are what you work at. DRob was dominant and quite frankly the most underrated Center of all time because of the way he played. Again, my opinion.

That said I agree with your underlying point. Or maybe I'm reading into what you're saying too much but I think you're point is that a player like DRob, with his skill set, would have been able to adjust to today's game easily and probably be more dominant than he was back then. And on that point I do agree.

Footwork, fundamentals, mid-range jumper, defense, taking it to the basket, etc. Very few players in general can do all of that today, let alone big men.

plenty of bigs have range, can handle, etc. The post footwork of yesterday isn't valuable today, due to rules, and the game expanding in theory. No longer does it benefit an offense to dump it into the low block, eat shot clock, and let a big go to work, waiting on a double team. It can work in spots, but it's no longer THE offense, like it was for so long. Remember who our youngsters are growing up watching too. They all want to be perimeter players now.

Everything is cyclical. Rule changes will happen, taking away the crazy outside game of today, we will just have to see what hits next.

ManRam
01-10-2017, 05:04 PM
I'm sure I'm bringing no new ideas to the table in this thread....but I think building a team around LeBron is the easiest based on his absurdly diverse skill set. He allows for more cushion in terms of roster building. You can focus more on just finding the best talent than worrying about certain positions or needs. The are more paths towards building a championship roster with him than maybe anyone else.

I don't know if LeBron is better than Duncan, but I think it's close enough for me to take the more malleable guy. That's LeBron.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 06:01 PM
plenty of bigs have range, can handle, etc. The post footwork of yesterday isn't valuable today, due to rules, and the game expanding in theory. No longer does it benefit an offense to dump it into the low block, eat shot clock, and let a big go to work, waiting on a double team. It can work in spots, but it's no longer THE offense, like it was for so long. Remember who our youngsters are growing up watching too. They all want to be perimeter players now.

Everything is cyclical. Rule changes will happen, taking away the crazy outside game of today, we will just have to see what hits next.

That's exactly the same point I made earlier in this thread. Less physicality opens up the game for more athleticism. I love the NBA today. I loathed the NBA 2000-2010 (more like 2000-2012). BUT in my opinion in order to get the great product we have right now, we had to go through the growing pains we went through then.

I don't agree with your point that dumping to the big man was "THE" offense. The Lakers/Celtics of the '80's didn't play like that. The Pistons, Bulls certainly didn't play like that. Even the Rockets & Knicks didn't play like that. Ewing was more of a mid-range player than anything else and Hakeem's Rockets played a "move the ball" offense similar to what we're seeing today.

Sure some teams ran an offense like that--like any team Shaq was on in his prime--but it most certainly wasn't "THE" offense.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 06:13 PM
I'm sure I'm bringing no new ideas to the table in this thread....but I think building a team around LeBron is the easiest based on his absurdly diverse skill set. He allows for more cushion in terms of roster building. You can focus more on just finding the best talent than worrying about certain positions or needs. The are more paths towards building a championship roster with him than maybe anyone else.

I don't know if LeBron is better than Duncan, but I think it's close enough for me to take the more malleable guy. That's LeBron.

You can't be wrong in this discussion. It doesn't matter if Kobe is better or Lebron is better or Duncan is better. The premise is who you start a franchise with and given the three options, there's simply no bad choice. (Even the people who might question Kobe here can't seriously argue that it'd be a bad pick. There's just better ones, that's all.)

What would have been fun was having to pick a player for a specific position and excluding obvious choices. For example, starting a franchise and you have to pick a small forward. Your choices are Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, or Dominique Wilkins. (No Bird and no Lebron.)

Hawkeye15
01-10-2017, 06:17 PM
That's exactly the same point I made earlier in this thread. Less physicality opens up the game for more athleticism. I love the NBA today. I loathed the NBA 2000-2010 (more like 2000-2012). BUT in my opinion in order to get the great product we have right now, we had to go through the growing pains we went through then.

I don't agree with your point that dumping to the big man was "THE" offense. The Lakers/Celtics of the '80's didn't play like that. The Pistons, Bulls certainly didn't play like that. Even the Rockets & Knicks didn't play like that. Ewing was more of a mid-range player than anything else and Hakeem's Rockets played a "move the ball" offense similar to what we're seeing today.

Sure some teams ran an offense like that--like any team Shaq was on in his prime--but it most certainly wasn't "THE" offense.

True, if you didn't have a post scoring big man, you didn't play that way primarily. Teams that did have an anchor were inside out until your eyes bled from boredom. The 90's was filled with that. Hell they created the interior 5 second rule because fat pinstriped Barkley was putting fans to sleep.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 06:29 PM
True, if you didn't have a post scoring big man, you didn't play that way primarily. Teams that did have an anchor were inside out until your eyes bled from boredom. The 90's was filled with that. Hell they created the interior 5 second rule because fat pinstriped Barkley was putting fans to sleep.

Yeah we disagree again. That rule is also called "the Mark Jackson" rule. Yes it's true that Old Fat Barkley would get a clear out and slowly use his big *** to back people down in the post BUT point guards would also spend time dribbling the ball away from the basket which was also incredibly boring.

Don't forget, Young Barkley was very much an aggressive, constantly moving player. Old fat Barkley was an embarrassment to his younger self.

Hawkeye15
01-10-2017, 06:35 PM
Yeah we disagree again. That rule is also called "the Mark Jackson" rule. Yes it's true that Old Fat Barkley would get a clear out and slowly use his big *** to back people down in the post BUT point guards would also spend time dribbling the ball away from the basket which was also incredibly boring.

Don't forget, Young Barkley was very much an aggressive, constantly moving player. Old fat Barkley was an embarrassment to his younger self.

the interior rule came in the late 90's. It was due to post players catching, and dribbling 15 seconds off the shot clock. Hell I don't think they have called that in 15 years

Barkley was amazing. 2nd best PF ever imo. But the older version was indeed a joke.

jmaest
01-10-2017, 07:20 PM
the interior rule came in the late 90's. It was due to post players catching, and dribbling 15 seconds off the shot clock. Hell I don't think they have called that in 15 years

Barkley was amazing. 2nd best PF ever imo. But the older version was indeed a joke.

I'm not familiar with an "interior rule". The only rule I can think of that sounds like you're referring to is the 5 second back to the basket violation. That's the rule that is called "The Barkley Rule" or "The Mark Jackson Rule".

Just out of curiosity, is Barkley second to Duncan in your mind or someone else?