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View Full Version : All-Time Playoffs: 2nd seed vs 3rd seed



Shammyguy3
01-06-2017, 03:44 PM
GMs used private auction bids to acquire players and form a roster. There were 12 playoff teams, and each matchup is up to PSD users to vote on for a winner to move onto the next round. All players are healthy, using their multi-year primes to base their production on. Who wins this matchup in a 7-game series?


2nd seed
C: Wilt Chamberlain/Jack Sikma
PF: Tim Duncan/Wes Unseld
SF: Peja Stojakovic/Bernard King
SG: Paul George/ Jimmy Butler
PG: Mark Price/Mookie Blaylock


3rd seed
Oscar Robertson/Kyle Lowry
Manu Ginobili/Michael Cooper
Carmelo Anthony/Andre Iguodala
Shawn Kemp/Horace Grant
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Chris Bosh

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 04:11 PM
I will again be starting Manu in this matchup if he keeps that lineup. Price and Peja will be attacked at a very high clip on the other end (on/off ball screens sometimes with both involved) and I have 3 great offensive weapons to do it with in Oscar/Manu/Carmelo.

While he does have the advantage in the paint with the two bigs, I feel Kareem's defense and efficient game (capable of blending with a team more than just ISO) give me the edge in that matchup 1v1 while kemp is a good big defender to put on Duncan (this is the obvious win for his team but given Oscar/price gap I feel I still win the talent battle here overall).

On top of this his offense is relying a lot of 1v1 from the bigs and we have seen how that has been phased out of the game to an extent due to efficiency and modern rules. Considering I at least have good (arguably great) paint defenders this should help keep the efficiency a bit down while my perimeter players (who are already efficient and proven capable of high volume) will have some mismatches to exploit propping my offensive efficiency.

Will reply more in depth when not on phone/in response to dhop. No matter the outcome congrats on making it this far and putting together a great team.

Redrum187
01-06-2017, 06:01 PM
Wilt and Duncan is just too much for Kemp/Kareem. Granted, Kemp/Kareem were both good defensive players, The dominance of Wilt and the spacing of Duncan is just too much of a talent discrepancy to ignore. Then 2 seed has a legit sniper in Peja who had MVP consideration in his prime and Paul George who is also a quality 3D guy.

The only concern I have is Price on Robertson. Robertson is obvious the better player and I'm curious how 2 seed covers him.

Strongly leaning 2 seed until further discussion.

Redrum187
01-06-2017, 06:21 PM
I understand 3rd seed wants to attack Peja on offense because Peja is seen as a weak defender, my issue is that if Melo attacks Peja, that essentially only leaves Manu as the only floor spacing player on the squad. Running a zone would completely devastate 3rd seed even with just 2 floor spacers, but even more so with just one.

Not to mention, Melo's reward for burning Peja is Duncan and Wilt... I would think they are playing into the hand of 2nd seed by Melo taking shots away from the real 1st and 2nd options and having Duncan/Wilt greet him near the rim.

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 06:21 PM
How is Kareem on wilt not the same for me at the other end? Duncan as a spacer will negate some of his value (while it is perfect for kemp as my 4/5 option). Considering the huge edge I have on the perimeter with my trio and how my bigs match up here I am curious for further explanation on that especially given your reasoning.

I have manu and Melo to match up with Peja/pg as well which gives me the edge on the perimeter all around (and again the one true big edge he has you said will be spacing).

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 06:26 PM
I can use Melo and Manu off screens to get them open, something Peja will really struggle with. My team is not going to be as 1v1 oriented as his unless there are major mismatches during the shot clock due to switches.

I have Oscar and Manu to facilitate and be on ball running the offense. He has mark price, that is an issue IMO and is why I will have a more team oriented with passing and perimeter movement/screens. To me there is a lack of playmaking on the perimeter which forces his team to go more 1v1 against my bigs who are both good defenders.

Redrum187
01-06-2017, 06:32 PM
How is Kareem on wilt not the same for me at the other end? Duncan as a spacer will negate some of his value (while it is perfect for kemp as my 4/5 option). Considering the huge edge I have on the perimeter with my trio and how my bigs match up here I am curious for further explanation on that especially given your reasoning.

I have manu and Melo to match up with Peja/pg as well which gives me the edge on the perimeter all around (and again the one true big edge he has you said will be spacing).

Kareem is pretty awesome, don't get me wrong. I have him at the top of the list honestly... however, if we look at history, he was bullied by bigger/stronger players. If Moses could bully Kareem, I don't see why Wilt won't do the same with Kareem.

Manu is in my top 5 favorite players of all time, I know he and Robertson are waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Price/PG... I do think you under estimate Peja though. Peja was a serious contender for MVP in his prime and I think he would have WAY more of an impact on his team than Melo will. They might be seen as equal value in an auction/redraft, but for what they both offer their respectful teams, give me Peja all day. Melo's biggest contribution is a bunch of iso's heavy volume scoring from all over the court, not catch and shoot like you've mentioned in previous posts. I still think your trio of PG/SG/SF is superior, no argument there, but his PG/SG/SF complements his two kings (Duncan/Wilt).

I'm just not big on Melo at all honestly. If I wanted an iso player between Melo and Butler, I'd honestly go Butler. He is the more efficient player and can defend (as well as rebound/pass) just as good if not better than Melo did. And he is on 2 seeds bench. Peja/Duncan/Wilt > Robertson/Manu/Kareem

valade16
01-06-2017, 06:37 PM
Peja was a serious MVP contender? He got MVP award shares twice in his career and finished a distance 4th once. He's about as much of an MVP candidate as Glen Rice who also got MVP award shares twice and finished 5th one year (and I hope you remember that for next round ;))

Redrum187
01-06-2017, 06:41 PM
Peja was a serious MVP contender? He got MVP award shares twice in his career and finished a distance 4th once. He's about as much of an MVP candidate as Glen Rice who also got MVP award shares twice and finished 5th one year (and I hope you remember that for next round ;))

I think I used the terms "consideration" and "contender". I think "consideration" is more accurate lol. Though, contender usually means the realistic choices (top x vote getters), which he was.

And I'm glad you made me aware of Glen Rice... I had no idea! lol I've just always been a fan of Peja (except when I went against him in last ATRD :p).

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 06:53 PM
Kareem is pretty awesome, don't get me wrong. I have him at the top of the list honestly... however, if we look at history, he was bullied by bigger/stronger players. If Moses could bully Kareem, I don't see why Wilt won't do the same with Kareem.

Well Wilt will get his for sure but I do think going against Kareem will slow him down some is the point and him going 1v1 in the post all game is perfect for my point on efficiency. I think we all have seen the game evolve and while Wilt is a beast in his time that efficiency will have to increase against DPOY level Kareem. On the other end I can use Kareem in the pick and roll etc with superior playmakers to help him get those better looks and win this matchup overall.


Manu is in my top 5 favorite players of all time, I know he and Robertson are waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Price/PG... I do think you under estimate Peja though. Peja was a serious contender for MVP in his prime and I think he would have WAY more of an impact on his team than Melo will. They might be seen as equal value in an auction/redraft, but for what they both offer their respectful teams, give me Peja all day. Melo's biggest contribution is a bunch of iso's heavy volume scoring from all over the court, not catch and shoot like you've mentioned in previous posts. I still think your trio of PG/SG/SF is superior, no argument there, but his PG/SG/SF complements his two kings (Duncan/Wilt).

I think you underrate Melo, he was also in the discussion for MVP before, both have some MVP award shares. I am not using isolation melo so you have to stop thinking like this. He is not the leader of my team or even my offense in any fashion including usage (like he always is on nba teams). I will be using Melo more in the role Peja has always been used as an off ball scorer, if you look since the tracking data he is about a 40% catch and shoot type player who excels even more when left open (which will happen with Peja guarding him and ball movement). He will get to be a lower usage player who gets open looks in this offense which should way up his efficiency like we see in the olympics especially considering he no longer has top defenders on him. Peja has always gotten to play off action like that and had a lower usage because he was not carrying the offensive load in the same way. I don't think it is a knock on Melo that he is capable of playing off ball/shooting but is asked to do much more which hurts his efficiency, now his role will be the same so those high % shots will be commonplace like we have seen in the olympics.

I think Manu (decent defender) can do a better job guarding Peja through screens than Peja (negative defender) can guarding Melo. Melo has had success in the past in his matchups against PG if you wanna look into that so not something I am too concerned with defensively.http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&hint=Paul+George&player_id2_select=Paul+George&player_id2=georgpa01


I'm just not big on Melo at all honestly. If I wanted an iso player between Melo and Butler, I'd honestly go Butler. He is the more efficient player and can defend (as well as rebound/pass) just as good if not better than Melo did. And he is on 2 seeds bench. Peja/Duncan/Wilt > Robertson/Manu/Kareem

You have to consider my gameplan which I went over more in depth in the other thread if you want to look into it more. Melo is not going to just iso except when it is a clear cut advantage with space. You will focus on his efficiency as a high volume player yet that is not how he is going to be used and his efficiency will jump due to that (like in the olympics). Oscar/Manu/Kareem are more efficient than the trio you listed and have overlapping skills with the multiple paint players while mine is more balance with perimeter play and an inside presence allowing for a more modern and efficient style of play.

Outside of that trio though I think I have a clear edge anyways with Melo/Kemp or bosh compared to price/PG. I think my bench is better as well but that doesn't seem to matter as much to some in these games, I will just say I think I have a little more flexibility throughout a series and Bosh could get some bigger minutes if spacing out Duncan works to my advantage enough offensively.

Edit: you know what I will just list the matchups out (at least who I have guarding who to start) since I want to point out the differences in starter all around and their matchups instead of using the trio you chose.

Oscar-Price favors 3 heavily (biggest mismatch in the game, elite offensive player against poor defender)
Manu-Peja favors 3 slightly I think (this is pretty close but Manu is a better facilitator/playmaker/defender and isn't drastiically off scoring/efficiency wise if you look per minute/100 possesions, I admit Peja's fit could make this closer?)
Melo-PG favors 3 again slightly (I have shown them head to head and it is clear but I have an elite scorer here in the perfect role to succeed)
Duncan-Kemp favors 2 heavily (second biggest mismatch in the game, another elite player but I have a defensive big on him at least and won't need to attack with him on offense which would be tough, he will space and attack the rim when needed)
Kareem-Wilt wash basically (I might not completely agree with NYK but I do think the success of each and Kareem's clear ability to mesh with team games might be a factor and in the new era the 1v1 version of Wilt is lessened a little. Not a game changer to me either way though so I list it as a wash)

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 07:00 PM
Peja was a serious MVP contender? He got MVP award shares twice in his career and finished a distance 4th once. He's about as much of an MVP candidate as Glen Rice who also got MVP award shares twice and finished 5th one year (and I hope you remember that for next round ;))

haha Melo>than all 3 though

Redrum187
01-06-2017, 07:03 PM
Well Wilt will get his for sure but I do think going against Kareem will slow him down some is the point and him going 1v1 in the post all game is perfect for my point on efficiency. I think we all have seen the game evolve and while Wilt is a beast in his time that efficiency will have to increase against DPOY level Kareem. On the other end I can use Kareem in the pick and roll etc with superior playmakers to help him get those better looks and win this matchup overall.



I think you underrate Melo, he was also in the discussion for MVP before, both have some MVP award shares. I am not using isolation melo so you have to stop thinking like this. He is not the leader of my team or even my offense in any fashion including usage (like he always is on nba teams). I will be using Melo more in the role Peja has always been used as an off ball scorer, if you look since the tracking data he is about a 40% catch and shoot type player who excels even more when left open (which will happen with Peja guarding him and ball movement). He will get to be a lower usage player who gets open looks in this offense which should way up his efficiency like we see in the olympics especially considering he no longer has top defenders on him.

I think Manu (decent defender) can do a better job guarding Peja through screens than Peja (negative defender) can guarding Melo. Melo has had success in the past in his matchups against PG if you wanna look into that so not something I am too concerned with defensively.



You have to consider my gameplan which I went over more in depth in the other thread if you want to look into it more. Melo is not going to just iso except when it is a clear cut advantage with space. You will focus on his efficiency as a high volume player yet that is not how he is going to be used and his efficiency will jump due to that (like in the olympics). Oscar/Manu/Kareem are more efficient than the trio you listed and have overlapping skills with the multiple paint players while mine is more balance with perimeter play and an inside presence allowing for a more modern and efficient style of play.

Outside of that trio though I think I have a clear edge anyways with Melo/Kemp or bosh compared to price/PG. I think my bench is better as well but that doesn't seem to matter as much to some in these games, I will just say I think I have a little more flexibility throughout a series and Bosh could get some bigger minutes if spacing out Duncan works to my advantage enough offensively.

I understand all this is hypothetical and we have to make many assumptions. With Peja, there is no assumption needed, he will excel at his role because we've seen him work unselfishly within a team doing a specific role, shooting lights out from 3. The issue I have is that it's difficult to envision Melo as anything but an iso heavy player who is high volume and mediocre efficient. We have to assume a great deal that real life and stats don't really indicate.

I'm interested to see Melo's catch and shoot when he wasn't exploiting players at PF though. I'd post that as evidence that even as a SF he could catch and shoot. I do know that he was improved at catch and shoot, but that was when he was at PF, which we discussed previously. I believe that's more attributed to PF's not being accustom to defending at the perimeter. Even a few years ago players would still leave Dirk on the perimeter and I don't know why... he is the GOAT stretch 4.

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 07:14 PM
I understand all this is hypothetical and we have to make many assumptions. With Peja, there is no assumption needed, he will excel at his role because we've seen him work unselfishly within a team doing a specific role, shooting lights out from 3. The issue I have is that it's difficult to envision Melo as anything but an iso heavy player who is high volume and mediocre efficient. We have to assume a great deal that real life and stats don't really indicate.


Except when he was on the olympic team...

We have seen him excel in that role when surrounded by other talent and we have seen him capable of doing more than Peja on top of that as well. Again given the role I am asking and his skill set this is the perfect situation for him imo.


I'm interested to see Melo's catch and shoot when he wasn't exploiting players at PF though. I'd post that as evidence that even as a SF he could catch and shoot. I do know that he was improved at catch and shoot, but that was when he was at PF, which we discussed previously. I believe that's more attributed to PF's not being accustom to defending at the perimeter. Even a few years ago players would still leave Dirk on the perimeter and I don't know why... he is the GOAT stretch 4.

This year he is at 40.8% on catch and shoot while also 46% when wide open. Last year it was 38.1 and 45.6 respectively. These are as SF and after his peak which were those PF years you seem to want to not count despite being the best representation of peak Melo.

If anything I would argue that the extra space he had in those prime years at due to playing pf is exactly the kind of space he will get when he goes from a top wing defender to Peja and now has oscar/manu/kareem creating for him too. He will have far more open opportunities due to playing in a similar role as Peja and does have the added benefit of being more than just that if needed as well. Again you even admited he usually had the best wing defenders on him either way and he also started games at SF anyways, he switched up depending on injuries.

NYKalltheway
01-06-2017, 08:45 PM
#2 is almost flawless. The biggest advantage that #3 has is that Wilt is a choke artist while Kareem is a winner so if they force-isolation, they might get a good chance at advancing.

Chronz
01-07-2017, 12:43 AM
How is Kareem on wilt not the same for me at the other end?
Because of their physical composition.

Chronz
01-07-2017, 12:47 AM
#2 is almost flawless. The biggest advantage that #3 has is that Wilt is a choke artist while Kareem is a winner so if they force-isolation, they might get a good chance at advancing.

So ignorant, an old Wilt held KAJ (in his best statistical season) to 40% shooting in the Final 4 losses IIRC in their series, this one year after Wilt played KAJ to a statistical draw the season prior. KAJ lost in R.1 when Nate Thurmond locked his skinny *** up. The same Nate Thurmond (with a better team) that Wilt dominated on route to a championship.

Kareem is only a better winner than Wilt because he was fortunate enough to play with the 2 greatest PG's of All-Time, guys who enhanced his efficiency to degrees that Wilt never had the luxury of.

dhopisthename
01-07-2017, 01:27 AM
Just a few notes before I get to bed. you act like I am going to running the most stagnant offense in nba history. I won't be running up and down the court as fast as I can, but I will be running an offense. peja will be coming off of screens, Price and PG will be running screens with wilt and Duncan. Duncan would be looking to exploit Kemp on defense and Wilt would be posting Kareem up, but its not like that would be my only offense. Then when I did run it they would be passing it out to 3 very good shooters.

On defense yes Price and Peja aren't all nba team defenders, but they can funnel things into great rim protectors in Duncan and Wilt. I also have two great defenders I can bring in with Jimmy Butler and Mookie Blaylock when I need it.


I will have a lot more tomorrow. wasn't expecting this up so fast.

NYKalltheway
01-07-2017, 09:52 AM
So ignorant, an old Wilt held KAJ (in his best statistical season) to 40% shooting in the Final 4 losses IIRC in their series, this one year after Wilt played KAJ to a statistical draw the season prior. KAJ lost in R.1 when Nate Thurmond locked his skinny *** up. The same Nate Thurmond (with a better team) that Wilt dominated on route to a championship.

Kareem is only a better winner than Wilt because he was fortunate enough to play with the 2 greatest PG's of All-Time, guys who enhanced his efficiency to degrees that Wilt never had the luxury of.

The point is that Wilt is a notorious 'loser' given the love he gets and the numbers he put. He reminds me of Lebron James. Kareem is the all time leading scorer and the leader of many championship winning teams. I agree about the Lakers part, but for me Kareem's best days were in Milwaukee.

KnicksorBust
01-07-2017, 09:57 AM
Will read through this thread today.

valade16
01-07-2017, 12:20 PM
The point is that Wilt is a notorious 'loser' given the love he gets and the numbers he put. He reminds me of Lebron James. Kareem is the all time leading scorer and the leader of many championship winning teams. I agree about the Lakers part, but for me Kareem's best days were in Milwaukee.

LeBron? You mean the 3 time Champion? Might as well mention such notorious "losers" as Larry Bird...

warfelg
01-07-2017, 12:23 PM
After reading everything, I'm going 2 seed.

But the arguments were great. This would come down to game 7 possibly overtime. But in the end the TD/Wilt combo in the post would prove to be too much.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 02:36 PM
Just a few notes before I get to bed. you act like I am going to running the most stagnant offense in nba history. I won't be running up and down the court as fast as I can, but I will be running an offense. peja will be coming off of screens, Price and PG will be running screens with wilt and Duncan. Duncan would be looking to exploit Kemp on defense and Wilt would be posting Kareem up, but its not like that would be my only offense. Then when I did run it they would be passing it out to 3 very good shooters.

On defense yes Price and Peja aren't all nba team defenders, but they can funnel things into great rim protectors in Duncan and Wilt. I also have two great defenders I can bring in with Jimmy Butler and Mookie Blaylock when I need it.


I will have a lot more tomorrow. wasn't expecting this up so fast.

Haha keep in mind I am nitpicking to an extent, both are great teams. I just think that with price/pg you have very little creating outside of those bigs. Peja will be a great stretcher to play off screens etc but you don't have any major exploitable mismatches like Oscar on price to create for others.

With a lack of playmaking I am just saying I think it makes you rely on the bigs a bit much likely leading to more ISO than my team has to rely on (which is less efficient given my defenders).

NYKalltheway
01-07-2017, 02:43 PM
LeBron? You mean the 3 time Champion? Might as well mention such notorious "losers" as Larry Bird...

It's spelled c o n t e x t. Learn what it is and use it properly because you're embarassing yourself. Ray Allen and Dwayne Wade might have an issue with you calling Lebron a 'winner'.

valade16
01-07-2017, 02:56 PM
It's spelled c o n t e x t. Learn what it is and use it properly because you're embarassing yourself. Ray Allen and Dwayne Wade might have an issue with you calling Lebron a 'winner'.

I think the dictionary might have to retire the word context if you dare ask others to bring it up when calling LeBron a notorious loser.

Why don't you take your opinion and go back to 2007 where it belongs.

dhopisthename
01-07-2017, 04:18 PM
Haha keep in mind I am nitpicking to an extent, both are great teams. I just think that with price/pg you have very little creating outside of those bigs. Peja will be a great stretcher to play off screens etc but you don't have any major exploitable mismatches like Oscar on price to create for others.

With a lack of playmaking I am just saying I think it makes you rely on the bigs a bit much likely leading to more ISO than my team has to rely on (which is less efficient given my defenders).

mark price made a living off of the pick and roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo and actually averaged about the same amount of assists that oscar did per 36 and that doesn't count the faster pace that oscar played at. Oscar is a far superior scorer, but Price can certainly be called a playmaker. secondly Paul George averages more assists then Melo does, but at a small enough clip to say its even. Manu has Peja beat no doubt in the playmaking department, but I don't feel as if I really need it with price and PG. I prefer he to be running screens around Tim Duncan and Wilt creating havoc.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 04:31 PM
mark price made a living off of the pick and roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo and actually averaged about the same amount of assists that oscar did per 36 and that doesn't count the faster pace that oscar played at. Oscar is a far superior scorer, but Price can certainly be called a playmaker. secondly Paul George averages more assists then Melo does, but at a small enough clip to say its even. Manu has Peja beat no doubt in the playmaking department, but I don't feel as if I really need it with price and PG. I prefer he to be running screens around Tim Duncan and Wilt creating havoc.

Price is a solid playmaker for sure but not on the level of Oscar due to as you mentioned his ability to attack as well changing the defense, plus that is the best matchup in the game for me (Oscar will also defend price way better than he can guard him so it only makes the gap larger imo). Melo is not creating on my team just like Peja isn't for yours but Manu is far superior as the secondary option of PG for your team. I have the advantage both in top playmaker and my 2nd playmaker is also clearly better than your second guy while also having a great match up on at least one of mine (while neither of yours has that same big edge).

Again it is not to say your team is completely lacking, we both are very good and well rounded overall to get here in the first place. In comparison to my team I think you have a very weak perimeter game that my team can exploit. If I am exploiting the perimeter in a modern game and you are going more to your main duo in the post it is something to consider efficiency wise.

dhopisthename
01-07-2017, 04:35 PM
Well Wilt will get his for sure but I do think going against Kareem will slow him down some is the point and him going 1v1 in the post all game is perfect for my point on efficiency. I think we all have seen the game evolve and while Wilt is a beast in his time that efficiency will have to increase against DPOY level Kareem. On the other end I can use Kareem in the pick and roll etc with superior playmakers to help him get those better looks and win this matchup overall.


again you think that Wilt can only be used as a one on one guy, but then say that kareem would be used in pick and rolls everywhere. Wilt was just as mobile as kareem and Kareem was just as much a one on One player as wilt was.



I think you underrate Melo, he was also in the discussion for MVP before, both have some MVP award shares. I am not using isolation melo so you have to stop thinking like this. He is not the leader of my team or even my offense in any fashion including usage (like he always is on nba teams). I will be using Melo more in the role Peja has always been used as an off ball scorer, if you look since the tracking data he is about a 40% catch and shoot type player who excels even more when left open (which will happen with Peja guarding him and ball movement). He will get to be a lower usage player who gets open looks in this offense which should way up his efficiency like we see in the olympics especially considering he no longer has top defenders on him. Peja has always gotten to play off action like that and had a lower usage because he was not carrying the offensive load in the same way. I don't think it is a knock on Melo that he is capable of playing off ball/shooting but is asked to do much more which hurts his efficiency, now his role will be the same so those high % shots will be commonplace like we have seen in the olympics.

if you want to use melo as a Peja type player then that favors me. Melo might be a decent catch and shoot guy, but he is no peja shooting the ball and its not something that melo has really done in his career. In fact Melo's 3 point attempt rate is at 15% while peja's is at 40%. you are trying to fit Melo into a role he isn't accustomed to while peja played that role his whole career. You can also compare Peja's TS% of 60% to Melo's who's highest 3 year peak is about 56%.



I think Manu (decent defender) can do a better job guarding Peja through screens than Peja (negative defender) can guarding Melo.


with Peja's quick release and 4 inches on manu he would have zero issues getting his shot off so its not like manu is going to be a lock down defender on him. Also if you put Manu on Peja that means I have Melo on PG and Melo is just as bad a defender as Peja is.



Melo has had success in the past in his matchups against PG if you wanna look into that so not something I am too concerned with defensively.http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id1=anthoca01&hint=Paul+George&player_id2_select=Paul+George&player_id2=georgpa01

I don't watch a ton of new york knicks basketball, but I am willing to bet that most of the time Melo isn't guarding PG so I don't see how this is of any relevance.

dhopisthename
01-07-2017, 04:45 PM
Price is a solid playmaker for sure but not on the level of Oscar due to as you mentioned his ability to attack as well changing the defense, plus that is the best matchup in the game for me (Oscar will also defend price way better than he can guard him so it only makes the gap larger imo). Melo is not creating on my team just like Peja isn't for yours but Manu is far superior as the secondary option of PG for your team. I have the advantage both in top playmaker and my 2nd playmaker is also clearly better than your second guy while also having a great match up on at least one of mine (while neither of yours has that same big edge).

Again it is not to say your team is completely lacking, we both are very good and well rounded overall to get here in the first place. In comparison to my team I think you have a very weak perimeter game that my team can exploit. If I am exploiting the perimeter in a modern game and you are going more to your main duo in the post it is something to consider efficiency wise.

I mean we are talking about all this playmaking, but one of the biggest issues is that you don't have the shooters outside of manu to really punish me in the pick and roll game. I can help out way more then you can because melo and oscar aren't snipers from 3.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 04:57 PM
again you think that Wilt can only be used as a one on one guy, but then say that kareem would be used in pick and rolls everywhere. Wilt was just as mobile as kareem and Kareem was just as much a one on One player as wilt was.

Kareem has a proven history and I am speaking more to how they each normally played. Kareem very regularly was playing off others but you could argue that had to do with obviously playing on great teams and top pg's. If you want to use Wilt differently that might change things, I would love to hear how your offense will be run. It appeared to me that what I will want to do is force your perimeter guys into higher volume (specifically PG) so I am open to discussing how we might do that if you will be more pick and roll oriented with your bigs not using their post game as much. What is your main style?



if you want to use melo as a Peja type player then that favors me. Melo might be a decent catch and shoot guy, but he is no peja shooting the ball and its not something that melo has really done in his career. In fact Melo's 3 point attempt rate is at 15% while peja's is at 40%. you are trying to fit Melo into a role he isn't accustomed to while peja played that role his whole career. You can also compare Peja's TS% of 60% to Melo's who's highest 3 year peak is about 56%.


How can you make that first part of the post and then this? Wilt has largely been a 1v1 player in his career and you say he can change but don't even account for the obvious difference in what these two have been asked to do in their career? Melo has been used as a first option on his team while Peja played in the exact role we are talking about, of course you have better efficiency playing catch and shoot off ball with those skills. The thing is Melo can do that while also exploited Peja as a defender from time to time when possible because he has those extra skills.

The big difference here is we have actually seen Melo play this role and succeed on team USA. Fitting a player into a much easier role and one that fits his skill set better should only help his efficiency etc. Like you said his TS% was that high when he wasn't allowed to play mostly off ball working for easy 3's etc. He got that while being a high usage player and focus of the other teams defense/best defenders.




with Peja's quick release and 4 inches on manu he would have zero issues getting his shot off so its not like manu is going to be a lock down defender on him. Also if you put Manu on Peja that means I have Melo on PG and Melo is just as bad a defender as Peja is.

I definitely disagree, Manu was a very good off ball defender who understood how to play lanes and close down. To me the most important thing is to have someone there to contest a shooter and Manu could do that very often even if not the right height to get an blocks etc. Peja will have way more issues getting through or around screens and it gives Melo more wide open looks than peja and he can attack much better of curls as well (forcing a shift in the defense or easy hoop, if defense shifts then a big now has Peja on him).

I want you to force it to PG on Melo, that isn't a big mismatch at all against me in this match up (compared to mine on the other end at least). If your offense gets stuck trying to exploit that I call it a win for me.




I don't watch a ton of new york knicks basketball, but I am willing to bet that most of the time Melo isn't guarding PG so I don't see how this is of any relevance.

I can't speak to all of the regular season games but I know he was on him a lot in the playoff matches I watched although not the entire games (it was a mix of him and Shump I believe if memory serves but his size actually helps a good amount on PG). Lack of ability to get to the hoop seemed to be an issue for PG that series and I think it might be here too if Melo is on him and we have a lot of big bodies around the paint.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 05:03 PM
I mean we are talking about all this playmaking, but one of the biggest issues is that you don't have the shooters outside of manu to really punish me in the pick and roll game. I can help out way more then you can because melo and oscar aren't snipers from 3.

Melo shoots like 45+% when open behind the 3 pt line, I already covered that in another post. Wilt had a very strong jumper we just don't know how good he would have been from 3 because they didn't have the line but considering his efficiency during the time he played on that ridiculous volume I think leaving him open to help is probably a huge no no lol.

People really need to learn how to use the context of someones situation and the skill sets. Melo is a very good shooter when he is in a role like the olympics where he mostly gets to take open shots against a rotated defense or poor defenders because he is no longer the focus or leader of his team's offense. That change in role will have a major impact on things like his efficiency and he is clearly a good shooter when left open/on catch and shoot.

Redrum187
01-07-2017, 05:47 PM
The big difference here is we have actually seen Melo play this role and succeed on team USA. Fitting a player into a much easier role and one that fits his skill set better should only help his efficiency etc. Like you said his TS% was that high when he wasn't allowed to play mostly off ball working for easy 3's etc. He got that while being a high usage player and focus of the other teams defense/best defenders.

I know I sound like a broken record and I apologize. Melo played PF for team USA. I've already pointed out how Melo is used at PF exploits bigger PF's and smaller SF's who are forced into playing PF to cover him.

Secondly, the 3 point line is closer in international ball. Of course he will catch and shoot better if the 3 point line is closer. Check out Scottie Pippen's 3 ball during the year the 3 point line was moved.

Thirdly, international competition is rubbish.

You're free to say "I'll use the PF Melo at SF" but explain how that works when you have Kemp as your PF and Kareem as your C.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 06:13 PM
I know I sound like a broken record and I apologize. Melo played PF for team USA. I've already pointed out how Melo is used at PF exploits bigger PF's and smaller SF's who are forced into playing PF to cover him.


You have already stated that when it happens in the NBA it is the best defenders still on him. In the olympics they do it because others tend to be small so it adds more spacing to the floor and normally other teams can't exploit it at the other end because they have similar ideas. I have stated this over and over without responses but wouldn't the context and role of the situations be more important than what position he is listed at? You never answer about how he played a good chunk of those years at SF too. Matching up with the other team or changing his position due to injuries does not change his ability to hit open jump shots or that the best wings were guarding him on those knicks teams. In the olympics he did not have those great defenders on him so you can bring that up if he would here but it is Peja guarding him haha.

On my team that extra space is exactly what Melo will have as the shooter, coming off screens with peja on him, or just getting open looks from Oscar/Manu. You have ignored every time I bring things up so yes at this point you sound like a broken record who is refusing to actually discuss the role/abilities but can only keep saying one thing. You questioned his shooting numbers at SF and I provided them after his peak years and they were very good in the roles I mention of open shots and catch/shoot. No response.


Secondly, the 3 point line is closer in international ball. Of course he will catch and shoot better if the 3 point line is closer. Check out Scottie Pippen's 3 ball during the year the 3 point line was moved.

I have shown his catch and shoot and open shooting numbers in the NBA, post peak, while playing at SF. I continually counter what you say only for it to be ignored and you to bring up "but Melo played pf bro" multiple times. Lets focus on the skill sets, role, and context and stop repeating ourselves. Just please break it down further than this.


Thirdly, international competition is rubbish.

You're free to say "I'll use the PF Melo at SF" but explain how that works when you have Kemp as your PF and Kareem as your C.

I only use international play for those who say Melo won't be able to fit in or excel in a certain role only because we haven't seen it before. We have seen him do just that.

I am saying I will use Carmelo Anthony who has played SF a large majority of his career as an SF. PF and SF Carmelo have the same skill set it is the rest of the team that changes and in the nba they still keep their top defender on him anyways in said years. I will be using the off ball version of Carmelo we have seen in the olympics, just that type of role nothing else so we do have evidence he can fit into said concept. I will be using the 40% catch and shoot and 45% wide open shooting Melo from the nba the last couple years (maybe better in his peak but again I have catered my numbers to you).

Again I am not using PF carmelo at SF. I am using prime Carmelo Anthony and his skill set in the role that will enhance his game/efficiency the most and on top of that I get to do it with Peja guarding him.

Redrum187
01-07-2017, 07:07 PM
You have already stated that when it happens in the NBA it is the best defenders still on him. In the olympics they do it because others tend to be small so it adds more spacing to the floor and normally other teams can't exploit it at the other end because they have similar ideas. I have stated this over and over without responses but wouldn't the context and role of the situations be more important than what position he is listed at? You never answer about how he played a good chunk of those years at SF too. Matching up with the other team or changing his position due to injuries does not change his ability to hit open jump shots or that the best wings were guarding him on those knicks teams. In the olympics he did not have those great defenders on him so you can bring that up if he would here but it is Peja guarding him haha.

Someone else explained it to you better than I could though. While the better perimeter defender is guarding Melo at PF, Melo exploits him because a SF playing out of position at PF to cover Melo will have duties he is not accustom to.

You are correct in that his ability to hit open shots doesn't change on his positioning. However, a natural SF guarding another natural SF will not leave Melo as open. It's no coincidence he shot his best from 3 the years he was at PF. Granted, Peja isn't a good defender, I don't think Melo will be as open as he was when he was playing at the 4. All Peja really needs to do is hold his ground on the perimeter and if Melo burns him Wilt and Duncan will greet him.


On my team that extra space is exactly what Melo will have as the shooter, coming off screens with peja on him, or just getting open looks from Oscar/Manu. You have ignored every time I bring things up so yes at this point you sound like a broken record who is refusing to actually discuss the role/abilities but can only keep saying one thing. You questioned his shooting numbers at SF and I provided them after his peak years and they were very good in the roles I mention of open shots and catch/shoot. No response.


It's not that I ignore it, it's that I brush it off because not many buy Melo in the manner you're describing. You using postpeak years for 3 pointers doesn't really count either... Peak Melo didn't shoot like how he has post peak. That's like having Jason Kidd and saying, "Well, Kidd has all the defense and playmaking skills with his 40%+ from 3 he had postpeak. It doesn't work that way... "Putting it into context" to you means we assume he had the skillset he has now and give it to his true peak.

As for the minority of the time Melo played SF while he was majority at PF, I can't really comment on. Maybe he shot better or worse, but it's difficult to measure as we'd have to watch every game and see what position he was at.


I have shown his catch and shoot and open shooting numbers in the NBA, post peak, while playing at SF. I continually counter what you say only for it to be ignored and you to bring up "but Melo played pf bro" multiple times. Lets focus on the skill sets, role, and context and stop repeating ourselves. Just please break it down further than this.


See above.


I only use international play for those who say Melo won't be able to fit in or excel in a certain role only because we haven't seen it before. We have seen him do just that.

I understand. You want to use postpeak Melo's catch and shoot numbers and say because he did it in the olympics and this season, he will be great in that role when we get the real peak Melo. Gotcha.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 07:30 PM
Someone else explained it to you better than I could though. While the better perimeter defender is guarding Melo at PF, Melo exploits him because a SF playing out of position at PF to cover Melo will have duties he is not accustom to.

The role when defending Melo is the same and they use the same type of guys on him. Melo is not the guy defenses helped off of even when he is listed at pf, they had liker brewer and shumpert and kenyon etc etc. Can you give me a real breakdown of how you think this changed guarding Melo specifically? Every game I watched he is taking on top defenders who are not simply leaving him because they are now the pf, in the nba you cheat of players like Ronnie Brewer instead even if he isn't listed as the pf (and when teams stayed big those big men guarded those weak links so they could maintain their responsibility off that guy instead of leaving Melo.

Now yes that extra spacing did leave him open more often still despite what I say because that will happen when going small I am not trying to negate your point completely but once again that is exactly how he will be playing on this team, getting him open for an easy look. He won't even have to create for himself at a high clip anymore nor will we ask him to. When it comes to Melo's role, his defender, and the spacing he had at times when defenses accounted for others I am asking basically the same thing of him.


The difference is that Melo at the 4 gives him and the team more room to operate, again which is the key.

Yup he did for sure at times and it boosted his 3pt and all around efficiency when he had more open looks and less of him having to create. It's funny I feel like that is the exact point I have been making this whole time and why this role on my team is perfect for him.

It seems we agree on what role is best you just keep harping on the only way it could possible work is with him at pf. I think having playmakers like Oscar/Manu and a force like Kareem inside matched with Peja guarding him will give him tons of those same looks.



You are correct in that his ability to hit open shots doesn't change on his positioning. However, a natural SF guarding another natural SF will not leave Melo as open. It's no coincidence he shot his best from 3 the years he was at PF. Granted, Peja isn't a good defender, I don't think Melo will be as open as he was when he was playing at the 4. All Peja really needs to do is hold his ground on the perimeter and if Melo burns him Wilt and Duncan will greet him.



It's not that I ignore it, it's that I brush it off because not many buy Melo in the manner you're describing. You using postpeak years for 3 pointers doesn't really count either... Peak Melo didn't shoot like how he has post peak. That's like having Jason Kidd and saying, "Well, Kidd has all the defense and playmaking skills with his 40%+ from 3 he had postpeak. It doesn't work that way... "Putting it into context" to you means we assume he had the skillset he has now and give it to his true peak.

As for the minority of the time Melo played SF while he was majority at PF, I can't really comment on. Maybe he shot better or worse, but it's difficult to measure as we'd have to watch every game and see what position he was at.

You have stated yourself it was the SF's guarding him either way, what changed is the rest of the team outside of that lol. Peak Melo had even better numbers than these last years you just said I could not use them because he was pf lol. You change the rules then say well you didn't use peak when he was a worse shooter (despite initially telling me I can't use those numbers). This is getting absurd lol.




See above.


The part where I can't use his prime shooting numbers because they are too good with him listed at pf more than sf? Or the part where I can't use the recent years because he wasn't as good of a shooter as when his numbers were actually better at his peak?



I understand. You want to use postpeak Melo's catch and shoot numbers and say because he did it in the olympics and this season, he will be great when we get the real peak Melo. Gotcha.

I want to use his peak numbers but tracking only goes back to 2014 from what I can tell and that is one of the years you said I could not use because he was pf.

All I want to do is use Melo's skillset in the best way by creating open looks for him. Peja was a very poor defender who could not fight through screens very well and would have major issues guarding Melo when we use action to get him open (and if you switch a big on him I have two mismatches on the floor now). I just have to deal with the politics of this game and defend the idea that he can catch and shoot and hit open shots in his prime I guess.

Redrum187
01-07-2017, 07:42 PM
The role when defending Melo is the same and they use the same type of guys on him. Melo is not the guy defenses helped off of even when he is listed at pf, they had liker brewer and shumpert and kenyon etc etc. Can you give me a real breakdown of how you think this changed guarding Melo specifically? Every game I watched he is taking on top defenders who are not simply leaving him because they are now the pf, in the nba you cheat of players like Ronnie Brewer instead even if he isn't listed as the pf (and when teams stayed big those big men guarded those weak links so they could maintain their responsibility off that guy instead of leaving Melo.

Now yes that extra spacing did leave him open more often still despite what I say because that will happen when going small I am not trying to negate your point completely but once again that is exactly how he will be playing on this team, getting him open for an easy look. He won't even have to create for himself at a high clip anymore nor will we ask him to. When it comes to Melo's role, his defender, and the spacing he had at times when defenses accounted for others I am asking basically the same thing of him.



Yup he did for sure at times and it boosted his 3pt and all around efficiency when he had more open looks and less of him having to create. It's funny I feel like that is the exact point I have been making this whole time and why this role on my team is perfect for him.

It seems we agree on what role is best you just keep harping on the only way it could possible work is with him at pf. I think having playmakers like Wilt/Manu and a force like Kareem inside matched with Peja guarding him will give him tons of those same looks.



You have stated yourself it was the SF's guarding him either way, what changed is the rest of the team outside of that lol. Peak Melo had even better numbers than these last years you just said I could not use them because he was pf lol. You change the rules then say well you didn't use peak when he was a worse shooter (despite initially telling me I can't use those numbers). This is getting absurd lol.




The part where I can't use his prime shooting numbers because they are too good with him listed at pf more than sf? Or the part where I can't use the recent years because he wasn't as good of a shooter as when his numbers were actually better at his peak?



I want to use his peak numbers but tracking only goes back to 2014 from what I can tell and that is one of the years you said I could not use because he was pf.

All I want to do is use Melo's skillset in the best way by creating open looks for him. Peja was a very poor defender who could not fight through screens very well and would have major issues guarding Melo when we use action to get him open (and if you switch a big on him I have two mismatches on the floor now). I just have to deal with the politics of this game and defend the idea that he can catch and shoot and hit open shots in his prime I guess.

I never said you COULDN'T use them. If I ever did, I should have said "you OUGHT NOT to use them" lol. That would be absurd. If you had Jason Kidd you could use the 3 years he averaged over 40% from 3 but it would be ill-advised.

As for everything you're saying, since it's not my team you're going up against, I'll just smile and nod my head. There isn't any point in discussing it when we have different opinions on positioning. I'll just concede, Melo will be the super catch and shoot player you claim he'll be.

mngopher35
01-07-2017, 07:53 PM
I never said you COULDN'T use them. If I ever did, I should have said "you OUGHT NOT to use them" lol. That would be absurd. If you had Jason Kidd you could use the 3 years he averaged over 40% from 3 but it would be ill-advised.

As for everything you're saying, since it's not my team you're going up against, I'll just smile and nod my head. There isn't any point in discussing it when we have different opinions on positioning. I'll just concede, Melo will be the super catch and shoot player you claim he'll be.

The one year of his 3 year prime (but he was playing pf) they have that data for it was 43.2 catch and shoot and 47% when left open. A little better overall but similar to the recent years I have shown you. From 2008 to now he has shot the 3 at a 36.2% clip overall too so you would assume open/catch and shoot would be higher than that (since he takes many late 3's, 1v1 type 3's etc too in the go to guy role). You are the one who continually brings him up without any sort of real backing while until now pretty much ignoring what I have said.

We can agree to disagree but I think it is pretty clear he is a good shooter overall and especially in that role and he has proven capable of fitting that role (again we can not count his 3 pt % in the olympics due to the line but I am saying just in how to use him offensively playing to his skill set). Apparently people have questioned whether Jerry West can really shoot so I guess it's part of the game.

KnicksorBust
01-08-2017, 03:34 PM
Will we ever see a team built around two low post players in the NBA again?

mngopher35
01-08-2017, 03:43 PM
Congrats on the win Dhop, you have a very well build team. Good luck in the finals!

mngopher35
01-08-2017, 03:46 PM
Will we ever see a team built around two low post players in the NBA again?

Seems like in today's game the elite big men are trying to or have added 3 balls to their games now too. Kat, Cousins, Porzingis even AD is starting to take a couple per it seems so in that sense I don't think so.

dhopisthename
01-08-2017, 03:51 PM
Will we ever see a team built around two low post players in the NBA again?

I think if you ever had two bigs as talented as Tim Duncan and Wilt Chamberlain sure. Outside of that probably not.

dhopisthename
01-08-2017, 03:53 PM
Congrats on the win Dhop, you have a very well build team. Good luck in the finals!

Same to you. thought that this would be closer.

mngopher35
01-08-2017, 04:20 PM
I think if you ever had two bigs as talented as Tim Duncan and Wilt Chamberlain sure. Outside of that probably not.

Yup, that's true.


Same to you. thought that this would be closer.

As did I, not too sure what happened as many didn't really engage in their reasoning. Either way though your team is certainly deserving of a finals spot based on talent/fit so it's whatever.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 12:30 PM
The teams that made the final 4:

MJ/Hakeem
Wilt/Duncan
Shaq/Magic
Oscar/Kareem

Next time people need to step up their bids and not let 4 teams monopolize all the elite talent. How did saving your $ for depth work out for ya? :)

dhopisthename
01-09-2017, 12:58 PM
The teams that made the final 4:

MJ/Hakeem
Wilt/Duncan
Shaq/Magic
Oscar/Kareem

Next time people need to step up their bids and not let 4 teams monopolize all the elite talent. How did saving your $ for depth work out for ya? :)

Obviously getting two top ten guys is going to set you up very well, but I think the biggest mistake was that people kept overspending on guys that would be 2nd and 3rd rounders to the point that those teams were able to assemble very talented starting units and benches. This made it possible for a team like mine to have mark price and peja on it.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2017, 03:15 PM
Obviously getting two top ten guys is going to set you up very well, but I think the biggest mistake was that people kept overspending on guys that would be 2nd and 3rd rounders to the point that those teams were able to assemble very talented starting units and benches. This made it possible for a team like mine to have mark price and peja on it.

No way. The bigger mistake was easily letting people scoop 2 group 1 players. Even if the GMs that got shut out had been savvier with spending on the group 2 and group 3 players we could still fill out our roster easily and voters would have still drooled over Wilt/Duncan and MJ/Hakeem. Considering the amount of GMs in the game (not a full 30) and the fact that it was an all-time game, the consolidation of elite talent should have been #1 priority. MNGofer did the best job assembling a "team" with Bosh/Iggy/Cooper on his bench and he is still a spectator because your Wilt/Duncan > Oscar/Kareem. In people's minds MJ >>> Magic and Hakeem = Shaq so I lost. That's why I targetted Shaq and Magic. If someone had stepped up and blocked Valade from getting Hakeem it's a different game.

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 04:07 PM
Ya I think based off both games it looks like if you can get the best duo you are set to win. I was hoping having the depth/well roundedness and close to the top duo would work but it just doesn't work in these games very well. My bad on Hakeem actually but considering he woulda had Kareem/Jordan and still been able to field a roster it wouldn't have been much different I don't think so the main point is once he had two guys like that it was probably over.

I think it is really hard for people to not overspend when you are watching all the guys you truly want to build around going off the board so it is probably something that will happen every game. I wonder if you could have gotten something like Oscar/Reggie/Kawhi/Bosh/Russell and if it would have been enough to overcome top talent (that is like right at 200 mil though so would have needed extreme cheap guys, would have almost worked I think though with some not being bid on). Take on two of the really cheap top level guys and then actually get a couple other very highly rated guys (my hope after Oscar/Kareem was Kawhi to help make up for non top duo). I still don't know if that is enough though.

Chronz
01-09-2017, 05:20 PM
Ya I think based off both games it looks like if you can get the best duo you are set to win. I was hoping having the depth/well roundedness and close to the top duo would work but it just doesn't work in these games very well. My bad on Hakeem actually but considering he woulda had Kareem/Jordan and still been able to field a roster it wouldn't have been much different I don't think so the main point is once he had two guys like that it was probably over.

I think it is really hard for people to not overspend when you are watching all the guys you truly want to build around going off the board so it is probably something that will happen every game. I wonder if you could have gotten something like Oscar/Reggie/Kawhi/Bosh/Russell and if it would have been enough to overcome top talent (that is like right at 200 mil though so would have needed extreme cheap guys, would have almost worked I think though with some not being bid on). Take on two of the really cheap top level guys and then actually get a couple other very highly rated guys (my hope after Oscar/Kareem was Kawhi to help make up for non top duo). I still don't know if that is enough though.
You have to bid HIGH AF on MJ simply to keep him off another team or force them to spend on him

valade16
01-09-2017, 05:22 PM
You have to bid HIGH AF on MJ simply to keep him off another team or force them to spend on him

I honestly thought MJ would go for like $120 Mil and was incredibly shocked I won him.

mngopher35
01-09-2017, 05:40 PM
You have to bid HIGH AF on MJ simply to keep him off another team or force them to spend on him

Haha ya it seems like the only way top duos will be stopped from winning is if people bid enough on them to not allow a team to be able to afford a 2nd guy meaning as Valade said maybe 120 million. I think there will be an adjustment next time around because both times overspending was big on the following rounds so why not just increase that first bid next time instead of getting lesser players at high prices.

I think for the most part the very top guys ended up underpaid in both games which is why Curry/Durant/Kawhi lead teams in the other game and Jordan/Shaq/Kareem/Wilt lead teams all made the semis. To me top level guys are clearly going to be worth more than even their high prices when it comes to voting.