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View Full Version : All-Time Playoffs: 3rd seed versus 6th seed



Shammyguy3
01-04-2017, 06:43 PM
GMs used private auction bids to acquire players and form a roster. There were 12 playoff teams, and each matchup is up to PSD users to vote on for a winner to move onto the next round. All players are healthy, using their multi-year primes to base their production on. Who wins this matchup in a 7-game series?


3rd seed
Oscar Robertson/Kyle Lowry
Michael Cooper/Manu Ginobili
Carmelo Anthony/Andre Iguodala
Shawn Kemp/Horace Grant
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Chris Bosh

6th seed
PG- John Stockton / Mark Jackson / Dennis Johnson
SG- Mitch Richmond / Dennis Johnson
SF- Dominique Wilkins / Chet Walker / Dave DeBusschere
PF- Charles Barkley / Dave DeBusschere
C- Yao Ming / George Mikan

mngopher35
01-04-2017, 06:55 PM
On my phone so won't do a full write up now but wanted to say I will likely start the series with manu over cooper. Manu/kemp/Kareem guarded by Richmond/Barkley/Yao is a huge win for my team offensively while the bigs match up nicely on the other end as well (and can pack the paint).

Shammyguy3
01-05-2017, 04:14 PM
i'm surprised nobody is discussing this matchup

Oscar versus Stockton
Melo versus Nique
Kemp/Kareem versus Chuck/Yao

Cooper versus Richmond even lol


this would be a fun series to watch

Ebbs
01-05-2017, 04:28 PM
Melo - Nique is a straight wash.

So Oscar over Stockton
Cooper vs. Mitch each vastly better at one end.
Barkley over Kemp
Kareem over Yao.

Way to simple of a breakdown but in the end I think Kareem and Big 0 team has more talent.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 06:33 PM
i'm surprised nobody is discussing this matchup

Oscar versus Stockton
Melo versus Nique
Kemp/Kareem versus Chuck/Yao

Cooper versus Richmond even lol


this would be a fun series to watch

I think Ebbs kinda covered it but to me it is a pretty poor matchup for him because it is easy to breakdown. Kareem can guard Yao and not be overextended, Yao is not guarding Kareem. His best player in Chuck has an advantage over Kemp but it is a solid match up for me in the sense Kemp's value is that he can defend so well and get physical with a guy like Barkley (otherwise could use Bosh but the defense on offense matchup is nice). Oscar over Stockton, Melo/Nique wash, and Richmond doesn't have much of an advantage on either SG (Richmond guarding Manu in the pick and roll is worse than manu guarding richmond imo).

Yao/Barkley in the paint is just a huge issue considering Kareem and an attacking oscar (or getting them in the pick and roll with oscar/manu). I feel like I can defend him to an extent but he can't say the same and my guys are more talented overall with the top duo and still good depth.

Shammyguy3
01-05-2017, 06:48 PM
i don't think 6th seed would win, but i'm surprised more people haven't gotten in on the discussion about it

valade16
01-05-2017, 06:56 PM
i don't think 6th seed would win, but i'm surprised more people haven't gotten in on the discussion about it

There have been a couple assertions here I find incorrect.

First, Melo does not equal Nique. They are both high volume scorers but Nique was better at it and the numbers back that up.

Second, Yao would be among the best possible defenders for Kareem because he's massive enough to push Kareem around and tall enough to actual disrupt and block the Skyhook.

Third, Yao/Barkley do not present some sort of spacing issue by clogging the lane since Yao and to a lesser extent Barkley could both shoot from midrange.

Shammyguy3
01-05-2017, 07:20 PM
There have been a couple assertions here I find incorrect.

First, Melo does not equal Nique. They are both high volume scorers but Nique was better at it and the numbers back that up.

Second, Yao would be among the best possible defenders for Kareem because he's massive enough to push Kareem around and tall enough to actual disrupt and block the Skyhook.

Third, Yao/Barkley do not present some sort of spacing issue by clogging the lane since Yao and to a lesser extent Barkley could both shoot from midrange.

Yeah, Wilkins is definitely above Melo. I agree with your Yao point in guarding Kareem. Who was the tallest player Kareem played against, and did he have as strong of a base as Yao did? I think Barkley would wreak havoc in this matchup honestly

Redrum187
01-05-2017, 07:31 PM
Where is NYK? I want to hear his input. I think this is a good matchup.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 07:37 PM
There have been a couple assertions here I find incorrect.

First, Melo does not equal Nique. They are both high volume scorers but Nique was better at it and the numbers back that up.

From what I can tell per 100 possessions their top years scoring wise have it at Wilkins scoring 38.6 points, Melo at 38 points with a better TS%. Not only that but Melo is a better spacer too which adds a little value to his game as well. Both high volume scorers but imo Melo showing his off ball ability in the olympics and that 3 point shot on catch and shoot attempts is a prefect fit as a 3rd option.

They are very very close offensive players imo with Melo being a very good fit on this team. I am wondering what numbers you are referring to because to me with the scoring that close and the TS edge to Melo I don't see how Nique is a better scorer statistically.


Second, Yao would be among the best possible defenders for Kareem because he's massive enough to push Kareem around and tall enough to actual disrupt and block the Skyhook.

True, his size/height might be an issue for 1v1 in the post but he was quite slow footed and we can get him involved on screens to counter that (why Manu starting and also have oscar to use as well). Yao is not going to be able to move with Kareem outside of the paint and he will have no one left at the hoop when this happens. Even in those 1v1 situations though Yao has never really been like a great/elite defender so I still think Kareem definitely wins that battle. He might lessen the 1v1 advantage if he can prevent the skyhook but my team is capable of exploiting that matchup in other ways.


Third, Yao/Barkley do not present some sort of spacing issue by clogging the lane since Yao and to a lesser extent Barkley could both shoot from midrange.

Yao can't really shoot that well outside of 16 feet and Barkley didn't extend much further either so it would be a bit tight. Not a major deal but I am not sure anyone has harped on that really either, it allows my bigs to not have to overextend much though which is nice.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 07:47 PM
Yeah, Wilkins is definitely above Melo. I agree with your Yao point in guarding Kareem. Who was the tallest player Kareem played against, and did he have as strong of a base as Yao did? I think Barkley would wreak havoc in this matchup honestly

I am curious as to why with Barkley? To me a big physical defender like Kemp is a great fit to match up. I just checked the head to head as well:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Shawn+Kemp&player_id1_select=Shawn+Kemp&player_id1=kempsh01&hint=Charles+Barkley&player_id2_select=Charles+Barkley&player_id2=barklch01

valade16
01-05-2017, 08:00 PM
From what I can tell per 100 possessions their top years scoring wise have it at Wilkins scoring 38.6 points, Melo at 38 points with a better TS%. Not only that but Melo is a better spacer too which adds a little value to his game as well. Both high volume scorers but imo Melo showing his off ball ability in the olympics and that 3 point shot on catch and shoot attempts is a prefect fit as a 3rd option.

They are very very close offensive players imo with Melo being a very good fit on this team. I am wondering what numbers you are referring to because to me with the scoring that close and the TS edge to Melo I don't see how Nique is a better scorer statistically.

True, his size/height might be an issue for 1v1 in the post but he was quite slow footed and we can get him involved on screens to counter that (why Manu starting and also have oscar to use as well). Yao is not going to be able to move with Kareem outside of the paint and he will have no one left at the hoop when this happens. Even in those 1v1 situations though Yao has never really been like a great/elite defender so I still think Kareem definitely wins that battle. He might lessen the 1v1 advantage if he can prevent the skyhook but my team is capable of exploiting that matchup in other ways.

Yao can't really shoot that well outside of 16 feet and Barkley didn't extend much further either so it would be a bit tight. Not a major deal but I am not sure anyone has harped on that really either, it allows my bigs to not have to overextend much though which is nice.

I meant better player overall:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=Dominique+Wilkins&player_id1_select=Dominique+Wilkins&player_id1=wilkido01&hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id2_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id2=anthoca01

Not to mention Melo's peak TS% was .568/563 and his peak OPM was 4.7/4.6, Nique's was .570/.556 and 5.9/5.3. I think at their peak or apex abilities, Nique was a superior overall player and at worst as good an offensive player (if not better). His peak WS, WS/48, and VORP are all higher as well.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 08:25 PM
I meant better player overall:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=Dominique+Wilkins&player_id1_select=Dominique+Wilkins&player_id1=wilkido01&hint=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id2_select=Carmelo+Anthony&player_id2=anthoca01

Not to mention Melo's peak TS% was .568/563 and his peak OPM was 4.7/4.6, Nique's was .570/.556 and 5.9/5.3. I think at their peak or apex abilities, Nique was a superior overall player and at worst as good an offensive player (if not better). His peak WS, WS/48, and VORP are all higher as well.

This is a peak game though and the stats I mentioned reflect that. In a peak 3 year stretch Melo was statistically less than a point behind with a slightly better TS% scoring wise I believe than even Nique's higher volume years. I did think you only meant scoring wise so that was my issue because to me Melo at his peak has a solid argument.

From what I can tell their overall 3 year peak stats are very close, with the edge being Nique still though (and I would say overall that is fair but for a modern game the spacing/skills/role of Melo make it even closer if not equal). For Melo it is 23.5 PER, .173 WS/48, 3.0 BPM on .552 TS%. Nique has a couple options because he had the volume of Melo or a slightly lower volume but slightly more efficient stretch too because longevity wise he does have the advantage of more good years total. That shouldn't play into this though since it is just their peak abilities/play and with each of them as 3rd/on options (which i believe suits Melo better) I see it as a near wash, fine if you favor Nique a little but would like to hear why if you think it's a big difference.

Redrum187
01-05-2017, 08:59 PM
The problem with using Melo's peak years (38.6 points per 100 poss) is that he played 2 out of 3 of those seasons at PF, and the 3rd year he did play SF, but only 40 games. Unless he's playing PF, I'm not sure that translates to him playing SF on your squad. I think everyone knows he exploited PF's to a greater degree than he did SFs.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:03 PM
The problem with using Melo's peak years (38.6 points per 100 poss) is that he played 2 out of 3 of those seasons at PF, and the 3rd year he did play SF, but only 40 games. Unless he's playing PF, I'm not sure that translates to him playing SF on your squad. I think everyone knows he exploited PF's to a greater degree than he did SFs.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't teams still usually use their best defenders on him? It was mixes of players like Copeland, Shumpert, Ronnie Brewer, Kenyin Martin playing and I don't think other teams just played their power forward on him and wasted a top sf defender on one of them.

Redrum187
01-05-2017, 09:06 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't teams still usually use their best defenders on him? It was mixes of players like Copeland, Shumpert, Brewer playing and I don't think other teams just played their power forward on him and wasted a top sf defender on one of them.

Yes and no. They did have wings covering him, and the ones that had bigger PFs covering, Melo torched. The issue is, someone like Brewer is better at SF than he is playing PF. So if Melo was a SF, Brewer would have an easier time covering Melo because that is his natural position and he doesn't have to do the duties of playing PF. Now then, if Melo is at PF, he can do that better than Brewer can. It's still the same person covering Melo, but that defender has more responsibility when he plays out of position at PF.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 09:13 PM
Come now redrum, I thought it was the peak year stats that mattered more than the contextual sway....... semi kidding :hide:

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:14 PM
Yes and no. They did have wings covering him, and the ones that had bigger PFs covering, Melo torched. The issue is, someone like Brewer is better at SF than he is playing PF. So if Melo was a SF, Brewer would have an easier time covering Melo because that is his natural position and he doesn't have to do the duties of playing PF. Now then, if Melo is at PF, he can do that better than Brewer can. It's still the same person covering Melo, but that defender has more responsibility when he plays out of position at PF.

Excuse me but can you explain that differently?

Melo always takes on the other teams top defenders and is the main option for those numbers (whether he is listed at pf or not due to changing lineups, shouldn't that be mentioned as a negative affect to his #'s?), my team has plenty of spacing, and far more playmaking so there should be no issue. On top of that I won't even be asking him to do as much offensively so it should help his efficiency and the rest of his game in a 3rd option type role (see olympics.

I feel like harping on them listing him at pf is a bit odd if we agree he was always the main focus/getting top defenders like Wilkins with high usage. Again this wasn't like it was a specific plan of him being there even, he still started next to Bargnani/Chandler/Amare/Kenyon/ copeland/thomas too, the team just had a lot of injuries/instability with their lineup so it lists him as pf on nba reference. It wasn't a game changer in the sense of PF's guarding him all the time or trying him out there for a 2 year stretch all the time because they like it better.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:20 PM
Come now redrum, I thought it was the peak year stats that mattered more than the contextual sway....... semi kidding :hide:

context above and notice how I have been the one bringing up the roles they will play etc. I was simply responding to Valade's post in bringing up their peak stats in response to him showing career stats without much else...

Chronz
01-05-2017, 09:21 PM
Excuse me but can you explain that differently?

Melo always takes on the other teams top defenders and is the main option for those numbers (whether he is listed at pf or not due to changing lineups, shouldn't that be mentioned as a negative affect to his #'s?), my team has plenty of spacing, and far more playmaking so there should be no issue. On top of that I won't even be asking him to do as much offensively so it should help his efficiency and the rest of his game in a 3rd option type role (see olympics.

I feel like harping on them listing him at pf is a bit odd if we agree he was always the main focus/getting top defenders like Wilkins with high usage. Again this wasn't like it was a specific plan of him being there even, he still started next to Bargnani/Chandler/Amare/Kenyon/ copeland/thomas too, the team just had a lot of injuries/instability with their lineup so it lists him as pf on nba reference. It wasn't a game changer in the sense of PF's guarding him all the time or trying him out there for a 2 year stretch all the time because they like it better.

Hes saying its an easier task to defend Melo at the 3 than at the 4, for a perimeter defender simply because there will be more bigs alongside both. The spacing isn't quite the same otherwise and like you said, you plan on using him more as a spot up guy right. Pretty sure he played more 4 in the Olympics too.

That said, I honestly dont know how much that should sway things but most players experience an offensive boost when teams downsize so its not something to simply dismiss.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 09:26 PM
On my phone so won't do a full write up now but wanted to say I will likely start the series with manu over cooper. Manu/kemp/Kareem guarded by Richmond/Barkley/Yao is a huge win for my team offensively while the bigs match up nicely on the other end as well (and can pack the paint).

Is it though? Yao was a seriously stout post defender with tree trunks for legs and struggled with shooters moreso than post players. Manu should torch Mitch so you're right on that one. As for Barkley vs Kemp, thats not a good matchup at all. Barkley would crush Kemp. The Sonics always had the Rockets number, til they added Chuck. I know Chuck doesn't have the reputation, but I always thought he was a better man defender than given credit for, he just wasn't a paint protector or a great team defender.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 09:28 PM
Stockton was a great defender but can he really guard someone that size? Anyone remember who he was guarding in that series vs Magic, the one where he dropped 20 dimes or something. I have that series on VHS somewhere.

valade16
01-05-2017, 09:30 PM
This is a peak game though and the stats I mentioned reflect that. In a peak 3 year stretch Melo was statistically less than a point behind with a slightly better TS% scoring wise I believe than even Nique's higher volume years. I did think you only meant scoring wise so that was my issue because to me Melo at his peak has a solid argument.

From what I can tell their overall 3 year peak stats are very close, with the edge being Nique still though (and I would say overall that is fair but for a modern game the spacing/skills/role of Melo make it even closer if not equal). For Melo it is 23.5 PER, .173 WS/48, 3.0 BPM on .552 TS%. Nique has a couple options because he had the volume of Melo or a slightly lower volume but slightly more efficient stretch too because longevity wise he does have the advantage of more good years total. That shouldn't play into this though since it is just their peak abilities/play and with each of them as 3rd/on options (which i believe suits Melo better) I see it as a near wash, fine if you favor Nique a little but would like to hear why if you think it's a big difference.

I would classify it as a clear but not big difference if that makes sense. His "high volume" peak was 86-88:


23.5 PER, .176 WS/48, 3.8 BPM, .537 TS% on 38.6 Points per 100 (Melo's was 38.0)

So virtually identical except Melo had a better TS% and Nique the better overall play by BPM

Later when Nique dialed back the volume and upped his efficiency from 91-93:

23.5 PER, .177 WS/48, 3.9 BPM, .560 TS% on 36.1 points per 100 possessions

So it seems like yes at his peak Melo was the more efficient scorer on high volume however in either case, whether you want high volume/lower efficiency or lower volume/higher efficiency Nique, Nique was still the better overall player by BPM, VORP, and by the slightest of margins WS/48.

Really this is nitpicking since I voted for your team :laugh2: I just think in this game we see a high volume scorer and lump them all into a "same" category when in this instance Nique brought more to the table and was a better (if slightly) player than some of the other volume scorers (this category includes Gervin, Dantley, English, Aguirre, and Baylor)

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:30 PM
Hes saying its an easier task to defend Melo at the 3 than at the 4, for a perimeter defender simply because there will be more bigs alongside both. The spacing isn't quite the same otherwise and like you said, you plan on using him more as a spot up guy right. Pretty sure he played more 4 in the Olympics too.

That said, I honestly dont know how much that should sway things but most players experience an offensive boost when teams downsize so its not something to simply dismiss.

Well sure but should we also factor in roster instability then too and get really specific on each aspect of the year then? I feel like given everything I have mentioned about spacing, role, those seasons and having similar usage/defenders/role as Wilkins, them also starting multiple games with 2 bigs that year too etc. that it should ease the concerns of his best stats coming in a year he was forced to change back and forth between sf/pf.

The role I am asking of him is actually more suited to his skill set (olympics Melo) being used as a spot up shooter off ball as well. He did play more pf in the olympics but I think we can both agree that the role he has on this team (with Oscar/Manu/Kareem to create) is very very similar on that end. Defensively he will never be good but at least I am asking less of him offensively so he can hopefully have a little more effort on that end (in this comparison Wilkins wasn't very good either anyways).

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:36 PM
I would classify it as a clear but not big difference if that makes sense. His "high volume" peak was 86-88:


23.5 PER, .176 WS/48, 3.8 BPM, .537 TS% on 38.6 Points per 100 (Melo's was 38.0)

So virtually identical except Melo had a better TS% and Nique the better overall play by BPM

Later when Nique dialed back the volume and upped his efficiency from 91-93:

23.5 PER, .177 WS/48, 3.9 BPM, .560 TS% on 36.1 points per 100 possessions

So it seems like yes at his peak Melo was the more efficient scorer on high volume however in either case, whether you want high volume/lower efficiency or lower volume/higher efficiency Nique, Nique was still the better overall player by BPM, VORP, and by the slightest of margins WS/48.

Really this is nitpicking since I voted for your team :laugh2: I just think in this game we see a high volume scorer and lump them all into a "same" category when in this instance Nique brought more to the table and was a better (if slightly) player than some of the other volume scorers (this category includes Gervin, Dantley, English, Aguirre, and Baylor)

That we can agree to for sure on their abilites.

The thing to me that makes me say it is a wash is what I have mentioned in other posts about how I think Melo's role on this team is perfect. He will get to play off ball a lot (really good catch and shoot) and will stretch the floor all the way out when doing so (you leave Melo and it's over). On top of this he will get chances to exploit in iso because I still have spacing and outside of Kareem (who as mentioned may not be in the best spot for posts) he is next in line here late in clock or to try and exploit a 1v1 mismatch created during the play.

Redrum187
01-05-2017, 09:43 PM
Well sure but should we also factor in roster instability then too and get really specific on each aspect of the year then? I feel like given everything I have mentioned about spacing, role, those seasons and having similar usage/defenders/role as Wilkins, them also starting multiple games with 2 bigs that year too etc. that it should ease the concerns of his best stats coming in a year he was forced to change back and forth between sf/pf.

The role I am asking of him is actually more suited to his skill set (olympics Melo) being used as a spot up shooter off ball as well. He did play more pf in the olympics but I think we can both agree that the role he has on this team (with Oscar/Manu/Kareem to create) is very very similar on that end. Defensively he will never be good but at least I am asking less of him offensively so he can hopefully have a little more effort on that end (in this comparison Wilkins wasn't very good either anyways).

I don't think it's really a shot against Melo (or you) honestly. I'm just saying that you're using years of Melo playing PF and saying he'll do that as a SF. Melo didn't shoot the ball the same way as a SF as he did at PF. You could make an argument that Melo will shoot just as well at SF as he did at PF for the Knicks... but real life data doesn't exist to support it. You could claim that maybe Melo shot better from 3, not because he was playing SF's out of position and torching bigger PFs... but because he developed a better shot in his NYK days in comparison to his Nugget days. Then it's conceivable he would be the catch and shoot player you're wanting him to be at the SF position.

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:45 PM
Is it though? Yao was a seriously stout post defender with tree trunks for legs and struggled with shooters moreso than post players. Manu should torch Mitch so you're right on that one. As for Barkley vs Kemp, thats not a good matchup at all. Barkley would crush Kemp. The Sonics always had the Rockets number, til they added Chuck. I know Chuck doesn't have the reputation, but I always thought he was a better man defender than given credit for, he just wasn't a paint protector or a great team defender.

I can bring Yao out on the pick and roll win Manu/Oscar and Kareem though which he struggled with I believe (don't have numbers if you do but my eyes tell me a bit slow footed when asked to show).

Barkley would easily win a matchup over Kemp but I don't think it is an advantage I have to pay tons of extra attention to if that makes sense. Do you think Kemp was a poor defender or something? Maybe we differ on his defensive abilities but I think the Kareem/Kemp duo is great for protecting inside the paint. Again Barkley will get his if we leave them 1v1 because he is clearly superior but I don't see this as some big mismatch (I think Kareem being used in the pick and roll with my guards is a bigger advantage than this 1v1 for example).

Do you think Horace Grant would be better or is it just you think Charles is great so you were just stating he clearly will win his matchup (that we agree with)? I agree Chuck was a better defender than most give him credit for and I won't be using Kemp 1v1 on him much because of that actually (he might get used in pick and roll some but even then Chuck is better than yao for that imo so he won't be targeted).

mngopher35
01-05-2017, 09:56 PM
I don't think it's really a shot against Melo (or you) honestly. I'm just saying that you're using years of Melo playing PF and saying he'll do that as a SF. Melo didn't shoot the ball the same way as a SF as he did at PF. You could make an argument that Melo will shoot just as well at SF as he did at PF for the Knicks... but real life data doesn't exist to support it. You could claim that maybe Melo shot better from 3, not because he was playing SF's out of position and torching bigger PFs... but because he developed a better shot in his NYK days in comparison to his Nugget days. Then it's conceivable he would be the catch and shoot player you're wanting him to be at the SF position.

The problem is that is Melo's peak and the best representation of it statistically there is with his transition to the Knicks. Those are his first 3 full years, so when I respond to stats for this game they are kinda what I have to use. Like I said though he was still spending plenty of time at SF those seasons and it was due to his cast's injuries etc which might negatively affect his stats those years too due to constant changes.

What if I say Melo had a 21.7 PER, .561 TS% (actually better scoring efficiency), .145 WS/48, 1.7 BPM at his 3-5 seasons and before he was really making 3's at a large clip. When he hit his prime as a player shooting 3's at a 35.6% clip his last 3 denver years and first NYK year (up until the years I mentioned before) do you think it is possible he had raised his level from 23 year old Carmelo to the slightly higher numbers before?

I dunno it just seems like something that shouldn't be a big deal unless you are actually going over everyone peak stats and context to decide how good they are. I responded to Valade using career stats anyways so just use those if you want and it isn't even that much different than what the peak was ( drop off BPM wise but close in others and better 3pt shooter).

Edit: I guess I just find it odd that people think he is best as a 4 tbh. I always attributed that big uptick as peak Melo getting to play with Kidd and Woodsen catering to his star, not playing more pf. I guess the spacing part was likely better for them but again my team has plenty of spacing so while it isn't listed as an SF the role is so similar and he gets to play off other great playmakers too. I guess I will have to look more into Melo and him being a pf, I get the obvious advantages it has for the offense with spacing but wasn't aware people thought it made him more impactful given the other end (especially if the team has spacing already).

NYKalltheway
01-06-2017, 03:28 AM
Where is NYK? I want to hear his input. I think this is a good matchup.

It's a team game, everyone is treating it as an extended one-on-one situation. I'm not gonna waste my time here. No one talks about the bench, no ones talks about basketball situations. It's all about player A > player B, hence team A advantage. I'm not into that bs.
I mean I have two of the best defenders in their positions on the bench and they're invisible in this matchup (Dennis Johnson and Dave DeBusschere).

Shammyguy3
01-06-2017, 04:12 AM
It's a team game, everyone is treating it as an extended one-on-one situation. I'm not gonna waste my time here. No one talks about the bench, no ones talks about basketball situations. It's all about player A > player B, hence team A advantage. I'm not into that bs.
I mean I have two of the best defenders in their positions on the bench and they're invisible in this matchup (Dennis Johnson and Dave DeBusschere).

Starters play 40ish minutes in the playoffs, good starters that is. In an all-time game, you have all-time players. Are you really going to bench them to get bench players minutes? That would be stupid. Which is why benches rarely matter in these matchups.

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 04:14 AM
It's a team game, everyone is treating it as an extended one-on-one situation. I'm not gonna waste my time here. No one talks about the bench, no ones talks about basketball situations. It's all about player A > player B, hence team A advantage. I'm not into that bs.
I mean I have two of the best defenders in their positions on the bench and they're invisible in this matchup (Dennis Johnson and Dave DeBusschere).

I am down to discuss in any fashion, if you wanna write a little something up I will try and respond in a similar way. My plan will be to pick on your bigs in the pick and roll (likely Yao most with Kareem). Both of my guards are very good facilitators and can shoot the ball so if Yao doesn't push up it should be an open shot and I feel that was the worst part of his defense is showing and recovering. Carmelo will be used as the shooter and spacer (his best role imo, playing off creators) likely working off screens set by Kemp on the off side unless both are spotting up and playing off other action. When Oscar has the ball facilitating Manu can also become a cutter/shooter involved in said action now having double pick opportunites to work off of (hope there is likely to get free cut to the hoop from one with weaker defenders and the need to stay close for 3's with both of them). A lot of times these will be how we initiate but there will be a little bit of a flow aspect too and not set plays because of how smart/talented these guys are (princeton type with a lot of movement/action including the on/off ball type screens I mention). When late in a clock or we need to go to a 1v1 option normally it would be Kareem and the sky hook however in this match up we might pick on Richmond or let Melo have some opportunities on Wilkins (getting a switch of richmond to Melo would be ideal) since you have Yao who may actually affect him some.

Off the bench I bring a little mix of modern game (lowry/Bosh) and some old school defense/toughness (Cooper/Grant) and you might even say Iggy brings a little of both (is he considered tough?). I went offense with the starters to match you but I feel this group is one of the most versatile in the game that can match up with what you throw or anyone else throws out there. Cooper and Iggy on the wings can match up with Richmond/Wilkins nicely if either get hot and Bosh is a great spacing big man off the bench. I will say that Mikan off the bench is tough for me (bosh is a little bigger but Grant might be the match up?, try both) but I think withyour bench I might be able to double/help a little more often depending on how players are used.

A little basic info so maybe you can get specific with situations you wanna go over etc for the matchup. I will try and keep the debate going whichever way you push it and not get too into the "politics" or whatever.

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 04:18 AM
Starters play 40ish minutes in the playoffs, good starters that is. In an all-time game, you have all-time players. Are you really going to bench them to get bench players minutes? That would be stupid. Which is why benches rarely matter in these matchups.

Maybe but I do think with at least my team the plan is to have some of the starters not have to play as much since I have a lot of depth/versatility. Playing less should keep my team more fresh too (maybe giving me a slight edge in hustle/activity?), although Oscar/Kareem are locks for that high minute mark for sure. The rest of the team was designed for flexibility on matchups.

NYKalltheway
01-06-2017, 08:38 PM
Congrats mngopher.

Just to clarify. What I said earlier wasn't directed at you but at the way people view these games and how they vote.

It's done and everything, but as simple as I can be, the plan was to utlize the bench with DJ marking Manu and DeBusschere closing down Melo to tire them off and get him off their game, which I'm pretty sure they could do on any given night, and then use Nique, Richmond and Walker as the 2nd line to help with the scoring. Stockton would try to dictate a slow tempo to ruin the offensive flow of Oscar-Kareem and accomodate Yao in a more defensive role, foricng Kareem away from the basket, whilst Barkley would be the main focal point on offense.

A lineup of Stockton-DJ-DeBusschere-Barkley-Yao should be more than capable of slowing down a p&r offense that's driven from Oscar & Kemp while Kareem should have more trouble than usual getting to the paint. He'd still be getting his buckets, there's almost no one who can stop him, but it's a team sport and most of my team can stop the rest of your players.
The only issue I'd have is with your 2nd unit's defensive abilities but Nique and Richmond can go lights out on any opponent. If my backup C wasn't the biggest question mark in basketball alternate history, I'd even say that I have the edge.

I can play all sorts of basketball, your team is built for a faster pace which Melo cannot keep up without having the ball on his hands (hence, Oscar is redundant if you want to say that Melo is going to be relevant in the series) and historically he does not share the ball enough for Kareem, Kemp and Manu to get the ball as much as they should in order to keep their historical numbers. Even your bench is just a substitute of the first team and not a complement. This team is built to run and mine can follow. On a set play it will either be very predictable and stagnant or some players will be unhappy with the offensive flow.

Same about the players' touches can be said about most teams of course in this game, but having Stockton, Mark Jackson and Dennis Johnson dictating tempo and players like Barkley, Richmond & Nique who are red hot in both transition and set plays gives me more offensive options. And guys like Richmond, DeBusschere, Stockton and Jackson were pretty good from beyond the arc.

And the biggest question that's not been raised is: Can Kareem really contain Yao Ming? He definitely will outscore him but I don't think he holds him to under 20ppg. I feel his effect on the series won't be that significant. Oscar will be the catalyst for your team and I don't see Melo sharing the ball with him. It's gonna be hero ball with Melo and Kemp on the same lineup.

mngopher35
01-06-2017, 08:45 PM
Oh ya I know what you meant, I play the game by those rules to try and win lol even if I don't necessarily agree with some stuff.

Congrats on making it this far, I love Stockton and am pretty high on Barkley so I did like your team (outside when you played me haha). It was a better matchup than I initially thought probably, I can't respond right now but even though it's over my favorite part is discussing these guys anyways so I will later.