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Chronz
01-03-2017, 11:28 PM
The whole league is experiencing a boost in offensive efficiency this year, be it due to the talent or expanding knowledge of the game, the numbers we've seen this year are undeniably unique. Its like we're back in the no-defense 80's and lots of players are either breaking out or entering their peak years, then theres our 2x MVP, Stephen Curry.

His raw stats dont look too different from some of his other years but as a result of the league experiencing this uptick, his individual productive value hasn't been this low since his pre-AllStar days.

We all know why this is going on, they have the most stacked squad of all-time in terms of talent. Curry could easily replicate last years performance, in fact, he does so in the minutes he plays without KD: 24-6-4 w/KD vs 30-7-5 without.

When the union first happened, I honestly thought Klay or Green would experience the biggest drop in their stats/touches and while Klay has experienced a drop himself, its been Curry with the biggest drop off and maybe its what we all should have expected.


So I got a few questions for you;

Do you miss watching the Steph Curry show?
Who did you see declining before the season (I know some were foolishly thinking nobody would)
Does this prove that KD is superior to Curry or will the playoffs decide that?
Is this good/bad for the league/Warriors?
Do you think this will factor at all into their chemistry come playoffs?
If this becomes the new norm for Curry, will he ever be truly revered the way it was getting when he was the overwhelming force on a historic squad?

tredigs
01-03-2017, 11:40 PM
His RPM is still elite and drawfs KD's offensive RPM (overall is slightly higher, and both fall behind Draymond... whose is ahead of Harden/Westbrook also).

It's a combination of Curry playing the deferential role in allowing KD to normalize to the new scene, him simply not HAVING to take over to anywhere near the degree the Warriors used to need him to, and him just not playing as good as he was in the reg season last year. He's missing shots both near and far that were dropping for him all year. Part of that could be rhythm, part could be the post-injury thing and him simply not being quite as on point physically, or part could be just him simply playing a role and biding his time (IE not being as locked in and "struggling" relative to that as a result). There's also the fact that it was a legend-level offensive season that was highly unlikely to be replicated.

It's still just 35 games into the experiment, he's still playing elite basketball, and the Warriors are on pace for the best win differential in history and have a chance to be the only team since the 72 win Bulls to have both the top rated offense and defense at seasons end. All things considered, the grass is pretty green for Curry and the Warriors, even with him playing lower than his potential would indicate for the first couple months.

Chronz
01-04-2017, 12:21 AM
Had a feeling stats like RPM and the like would still regard him highly, its why I highlighted individual stats over the more team oriented numbers, but they tend to be better at capturing(or predicting at least) team influence than any other stat.

That said, do you know if ESPN's RPM is prior informed at all? Could just be a layover from his season last year if so. Still got lots of questions left tho

mngopher35
01-04-2017, 01:36 AM
I think Durant is an amazing scorer but not an elite creator so this is just the perfect fit for him of not getting full attention and more open looks/opportunities. I think part of the reason for the gap is also that teams still play the Warriors as if Curry is the engine that makes them run too trying to stop him moreso (although I think same was true of Westy for OKC).

1. Yes, haven't watched many games this year but why bother most of the time with their differential?
2. I believe I said Curry will be more important to the offense still but not sure if I said either would decline or not.
3. No, not only because it is rs but also because I am not convinced his individual PER etc. is more valuable than the influence factor of Curry given the situation. They are probably pretty close though since I think Curry is better offensively overall but Durant has improved a ton on the defensive end to cover that gap now.
4. Good for the Warriors, bad for the league. Although that is my viewpoint, the league as in NBA making money might prefer this. I think it lessens the excitement of the season some but maybe we get an epic finals or something still.
5. Probably not
6. No, the love for him was reaching insane levels (comparisons to prime MJ last year). I think Durant joining probably hurt Curry in an all time sense tbh but we will have to see how it plays out.

Scoots
01-04-2017, 10:14 AM
KD fit perfectly what the Warriors needed on offense and as a result Curry hasn't been needed to have those wild scoring explosions. I think that is the biggest difference.

Curry is just playing the team game, and that combined with him not having such an insane offensive season personally makes it look worse than it is.

I don't think they are going to have a locker room issue ... unless they lose.

Vee-Rex
01-04-2017, 12:09 PM
I don't know. Great question. I guess there's arguments for KD or Steph as the better player. Durant is the better defender and Steph is the better passer/play-maker. Their scoring could be considered a wash.

However, there's just something about Steph that scares me a little more. I've watched a lot of KD and his points just don't frighten me as much. Sure, he's unstoppable... but his scoring outbursts sort of happen within the flow of the game, if that makes any sense? But whenever Steph lights you up you're pretty hopeless and that game gets out of control. His scoring is more demoralizing and seems to be more impactful and result in a blowout.

Maybe it's just my imagination, though.

Anyway, the Cavs definitely defended the Warriors with Steph as our primary focus on Christmas day.

mngopher35
01-04-2017, 05:23 PM
I don't know. Great question. I guess there's arguments for KD or Steph as the better player. Durant is the better defender and Steph is the better passer/play-maker. Their scoring could be considered a wash.

However, there's just something about Steph that scares me a little more. I've watched a lot of KD and his points just don't frighten me as much. Sure, he's unstoppable... but his scoring outbursts sort of happen within the flow of the game, if that makes any sense? But whenever Steph lights you up you're pretty hopeless and that game gets out of control. His scoring is more demoralizing and seems to be more impactful and result in a blowout.

Maybe it's just my imagination, though.

Anyway, the Cavs definitely defended the Warriors with Steph as our primary focus on Christmas day.

This is what I mean when I say "creator" actually in my post above. I think it is why he has only lead his team in RPM one time since 2014 when ESPN first started it (and that was Westy's injury year) and why his RAPM was the same way basically over time. He just doesn't have the same influence despite being able to get his it seems.

He is a very good individual player but his impact for the team isn't quite there because he just picks and chooses the best opportunities within the flow without creating much for others. He is certainly elite/the best at that specifically but I agree about Curry being more dangerous because he can create at such an elite level, leading to teams focusing on him.

Vee-Rex
01-04-2017, 05:43 PM
This is what I mean when I say "creator" actually in my post above. I think it is why he has only lead his team in RPM one time since 2014 when ESPN first started it (and that was Westy's injury year) and why his RAPM was the same way basically over time. He just doesn't have the same influence despite being able to get his it seems.

He is a very good individual player but his impact for the team isn't quite there because he just picks and chooses the best opportunities within the flow without creating much for others. He is certainly elite/the best at that specifically but I agree about Curry being more dangerous because he can create at such an elite level, leading to teams focusing on him.

Yeah, you explained it better than I could. While Durant can get his, Curry will have defenses going bonkers trying to stop him from getting good looks which opens up so much more.

FlashBolt
01-04-2017, 06:40 PM
I've always thought that Durant was a better player than Curry. I can see why some thought Curry was the best player last season (regular) but the impact Durant and James have on a game is just far superior to that of Curry. Durant just does more. Curry is such a liability defensively. IDC what stat you throw (I know some of you had stats regarding Curry's 1-on-1 coverage or how he led the league in steals last season) but most of Curry's defense involves him playing the passing lanes.




Do you miss watching the Steph Curry show?
Who did you see declining before the season (I know some were foolishly thinking nobody would)
Does this prove that KD is superior to Curry or will the playoffs decide that?
Is this good/bad for the league/Warriors?
Do you think this will factor at all into their chemistry come playoffs?
If this becomes the new norm for Curry, will he ever be truly revered the way it was getting when he was the overwhelming force on a historic squad?

1) Yes and no. I thought what he did last season was magical but I also do get tired of the precedent he set in shooting threes from just about anywhere on the court regardless of the matchup. That three against Love in game 7 cost the Warriors.

2) Towns. Not necessarily declining but I knew he wasn't going to get much better than he was last year. Some said he was going to be the best center this season. He's far from that, tbh.

3) KD has always been superior to Curry. His capabilities are just higher.

4) Good/bad depends on the ratings and increase of viewership. We can hate it all we want but PSD is the minority when it comes to basketball "fans." Personally, I hate it. Warriors would still have been the favorites this season and a few changes in OKC and we would be up there with any team. Would have been five teams (Spurs, LAC, OKC, Warriors, CLE) going at it.

5) Still 50 or so games left but they do have to acknowledge that Curry hasn't been adjusting well at all.

6) Curry could still do the things he did last season. As with every superstar+superstar combo, one has to take a step back. Warriors have three players who need the ball to have an impact so it's naturally going to hurt their stats and impact on the court. KD not being in the Warriors would mean Warriors would have improved their frontcourt with a better center and overall roster. Curry would dictate the offense and would be playing at a historic level once again.

What I think also affected Curry was losing that Finals against Cleveland and him being outperformed by LeBron. Curry was known as the assassin and one of the most clutch players in the league. He played poorly and was hardly the fourth best player in the series. IDK about you guys but you can tell Curry was visibly disturbed by LeBron's dominance in the Finals and win.

IndyRealist
01-04-2017, 06:58 PM
Of the 4, Curry is the least selfish. It actually doesn't surprise me much that it is Curry setting up the others.

europagnpilgrim
01-04-2017, 07:13 PM
KD fit perfectly what the Warriors needed on offense and as a result Curry hasn't been needed to have those wild scoring explosions. I think that is the biggest difference.

Curry is just playing the team game, and that combined with him not having such an insane offensive season personally makes it look worse than it is.

I don't think they are going to have a locker room issue ... unless they lose.

Pretty much sums it up to a T, way to keep it real simple and not resort to all that other clutter to sound like you are a genius out of a Einstein rat lab

phantasyyy
01-04-2017, 08:01 PM
1.Do you miss watching the Steph Curry show?

-I miss his wizardy, With KD on the team he has to take a back seat in order for them to implement him into the offense/defense for the betterment of the team. Has become more pickier with when to try to take over the game.

2.Who did you see declining before the season (I know some were foolishly thinking nobody would)

- I saw both Curry and Klay declining the most as their shots would have to go to KD, and Curry would not be able to replicate his magical season without the touches. Draymond I saw still maintaining his high assist totals since he initiates so much of the offense off the defensive rebound. His ppg obviously I saw going down but not his efficiency tbh. You stated Klay has somewhat of a decline but his numbers are actually identical to last year. He actually leads the team in FGA w/ 17.3.

3.Does this prove that KD is superior to Curry or will the playoffs decide that?

- I think KD has proven to be superior in the sense that he kinda of just a 7ft version of Curry :D. He also has the whole defensive side of the court where he has been dominant playing most of his minute at the 4.

4.Is this good/bad for the league/Warriors?

- Good for the Warriors, bad for the rest of the league as they are so dominant its not even funny. They are now leading the league in both offensive and defensive efficiency. Even the Cavs have shown a regression from last season with their role players not doing to well at the moment. They are still very thin on their bench and currently have two wasted roster spots due to injuries to Williams and Birdman. JR is also playing like trash after his big payday.

5.Do you think this will factor at all into their chemistry come playoffs?

- Chemistry is looking good for them, all the pieces are starting to click and they still have a solid bench unit going for them. Iggy and Livingston haven't regressed, McGee is actually giving them valuable minutes and David West is having a bounce back season and Ian Clark is looking fantastic this year also.

6.If this becomes the new norm for Curry, will he ever be truly revered the way it was getting when he was the overwhelming force on a historic squad?

- I don't think he'll ever reach the status he had last year. He almost snatched the "face of the NBA" from LeBron prior to their finals loss. As much anybody would like to argue it, the Warriors are now KD's team and I'd bet that if they do win the championship this year, Curry will get overlooked for FMVP once again.

All that said, personally I don't think Curry gives a damn about any this. He has reached the point in his career that his career will be evaluated based off how many rings he collects in his career. Dude is already 2x MVP and the very first unanimous one at that. Plus everything basketball related has become much easier for himself and he is line for that super-max extension so therefore, money shouldn't be an issue. If that doesn't satisfy him, he can take solace in knowing that he is at least the face of Under Armor :p

Chronz
01-05-2017, 12:10 AM
KD fit perfectly what the Warriors needed on offense and as a result Curry hasn't been needed to have those wild scoring explosions. I think that is the biggest difference.

Curry is just playing the team game, and that combined with him not having such an insane offensive season personally makes it look worse than it is.

I don't think they are going to have a locker room issue ... unless they lose.
I would argue both are perfect fits for the offense and each other. Obviously its a result of all that talent, Im more interested in how people feel about the outcome and what it signifies. I know some were hoping for more of a co-lead dog type of outcome and it probably is, its just not evident in the individual stats or the talking points with the media. Many are using this same team variable into helping identify who the superior player is.

Was listening to Cowherd and his chronies this morning and they all got me feeling like Curry has taken a big backseat this year, on and off the court.

Lets say they somehow lose, would you want to see the team restructure the offense or rotations, kinda how Miami did when they lost in Y1.



Of the 4, Curry is the least selfish. It actually doesn't surprise me much that it is Curry setting up the others.
Good point, Klay and Green are kind of contrarians to me. Klay says he looks to Manu for inspiration to being a team player but at the same time saying he wont sacrifice **** for KD. Dray has played for triple doubles in the past and now that hes not racking them up like hot cakes, he's making sure we all know he could if he wanted to.

To me there is always a breaking point, Curry has already expressed his desire to run more PnR, maybe they need to change things abit.


Pretty much sums it up to a T, way to keep it real simple and not resort to all that other clutter to sound like you are a genius out of a Einstein rat lab

Einstein lab rat? Man wonder what you would think seeing the kind of analysis that goes on within the NBA. This **** is basic as **** my friend.

lol, please
01-05-2017, 12:12 AM
The whole league is experiencing a boost in offensive efficiency this year, be it due to the talent or expanding knowledge of the game, the numbers we've seen this year are undeniably unique. Its like we're back in the no-defense 80's and lots of players are either breaking out or entering their peak years, then theres our 2x MVP, Stephen Curry.

His raw stats dont look too different from some of his other years but as a result of the league experiencing this uptick, his individual productive value hasn't been this low since his pre-AllStar days.

We all know why this is going on, they have the most stacked squad of all-time in terms of talent. Curry could easily replicate last years performance, in fact, he does so in the minutes he plays without KD: 24-6-4 w/KD vs 30-7-5 without.

When the union first happened, I honestly thought Klay or Green would experience the biggest drop in their stats/touches and while Klay has experienced a drop himself, its been Curry with the biggest drop off and maybe its what we all should have expected.


So I got a few questions for you;

Do you miss watching the Steph Curry show?
Who did you see declining before the season (I know some were foolishly thinking nobody would)
Does this prove that KD is superior to Curry or will the playoffs decide that?
Is this good/bad for the league/Warriors?
Do you think this will factor at all into their chemistry come playoffs?
If this becomes the new norm for Curry, will he ever be truly revered the way it was getting when he was the overwhelming force on a historic squad?


He hasn't "taken" the reigns from anyone, all of the big 3 play well together. Don't create something that isn't there with your statements.

btw you are definitely trolling with these questions....just because I drive my M3 at 25 mph doesn't mean it can't go faster. Just because Curry isn't exponentially head and shoulders above other players thus far statistically doesn't mean he's any less impactful, good, or whatever you want to term it.

Again, it seems like you are desperately looking for some inkling of lockerroom drama material, and I find that pathetic.

Scoots
01-05-2017, 12:46 PM
I would argue both are perfect fits for the offense and each other. Obviously its a result of all that talent, Im more interested in how people feel about the outcome and what it signifies. I know some were hoping for more of a co-lead dog type of outcome and it probably is, its just not evident in the individual stats or the talking points with the media. Many are using this same team variable into helping identify who the superior player is.

I wasn't trying to say that Curry/Klay/Green were not also perfect for their system ... just that the biggest hole they had was perfectly and directly filled by the best possible player available for that role in KD.

I really think Kerr constantly changing lineups on the floor is interesting because he's putting units out there that will obviously struggle and leaving them for a relatively long time ... he's forcing guys to find a way to play together. Early in the year he'd put Livingston, Iguodala, KD, Looney, and West out there for a 5 minute run early in the 2nd ... 4 non-shooter almost non-scorers and KD, so of course KD went off, but now that lineup is getting scoring from players other than KD because defenses adjusted. I think Kerr is teaching the backup players that they have to stay aggressive with KD on the floor, and he's showing KD that while he's incredible as an iso player the game is easier when you play as a team, even with lesser offensive players.


Was listening to Cowherd and his chronies this morning and they all got me feeling like Curry has taken a big backseat this year, on and off the court.

I think everyone is doing a little less than they were and there was clearly going to be an adjustment period. That said I don't think any of them are at all concerned by their numbers. I do think there are issues where the players know they are not playing in the best 5 man groups a lot of time and they are not using the most potent offensive sets as often as they could. I think that is Kerr just keeping them and opponents off-balance intentionally.


Lets say they somehow lose, would you want to see the team restructure the offense or rotations, kinda how Miami did when they lost in Y1.

I think it's going to keep changing regardless of the results this year. If for no other reason than there is a pretty good chance the roster will be significantly different next year.


Good point, Klay and Green are kind of contrarians to me. Klay says he looks to Manu for inspiration to being a team player but at the same time saying he wont sacrifice **** for KD. Dray has played for triple doubles in the past and now that hes not racking them up like hot cakes, he's making sure we all know he could if he wanted to.

To me there is always a breaking point, Curry has already expressed his desire to run more PnR, maybe they need to change things abit.

Klay's game really hasn't had to change. He's done a bit more ball handling and a bit more penetration ... but look at his 60 point game. When Klay catches it and he's just a little open he's taking the shot ... same as last year.

The funny thing to me is that the team has too much size now with Pachulia, West, McGee, Looney, Varejao, and hopefully more soon Jones playing C meanwhile they have 1 non-traditional PG in Curry, 1 traditional SG in Klay, and the rest of the roster are swingmen.

I think that is why a team with a quick guard who can score, with an outside shooter having a good night, and an inside/mid-range scoring big often combine to give the Warriors all they can handle.

JasonJohnHorn
01-05-2017, 04:41 PM
I think Kerr has done a great job of keeping everybody involved. Green still leads the team in boards and assists; Klay is averaging more shots per game than anybody on the team; KD is leading the team in scoring, but from the games I've seen, Curry still get to handle the ball. Looks like everybody at the top is getting theirs and playing into each other. It reminds of of the Celtics when they brought the Big 3 2.0 in. Garnett, Allen and Pierce all sharing duties and doing what each does best.

Iggy seems to be the only one who has been hit hard by this. And that may be in part because of his age. Would like to see him more involved, but hey.... they are on pace for one of the ten-best records in the history of the league, so...

What's great for GSW is that Ian Clark, McGee, and West have all proven to be effective role players and are posting scary per36 stats, McCaw seems to have a solid all-around game, looking at the stats, that suggests with improvement, he can do a bit of everything. And he's already hitting 3's at .375. He could turn out to be a great steal in the draft, as if GSW needs another one of those!

I don't see KD as 'taking over the reigns', more like sharing them, and making sure that while he and Curry are the leaders, Klay and Green are getting theirs, and the youngs guys are getting involved.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 06:37 PM
1.Do you miss watching the Steph Curry show?

-I miss his wizardy, With KD on the team he has to take a back seat in order for them to implement him into the offense/defense for the betterment of the team. Has become more pickier with when to try to take over the game.

2.Who did you see declining before the season (I know some were foolishly thinking nobody would)

- I saw both Curry and Klay declining the most as their shots would have to go to KD, and Curry would not be able to replicate his magical season without the touches. Draymond I saw still maintaining his high assist totals since he initiates so much of the offense off the defensive rebound. His ppg obviously I saw going down but not his efficiency tbh. You stated Klay has somewhat of a decline but his numbers are actually identical to last year. He actually leads the team in FGA w/ 17.3.

3.Does this prove that KD is superior to Curry or will the playoffs decide that?

- I think KD has proven to be superior in the sense that he kinda of just a 7ft version of Curry :D. He also has the whole defensive side of the court where he has been dominant playing most of his minute at the 4.

4.Is this good/bad for the league/Warriors?

- Good for the Warriors, bad for the rest of the league as they are so dominant its not even funny. They are now leading the league in both offensive and defensive efficiency. Even the Cavs have shown a regression from last season with their role players not doing to well at the moment. They are still very thin on their bench and currently have two wasted roster spots due to injuries to Williams and Birdman. JR is also playing like trash after his big payday.

5.Do you think this will factor at all into their chemistry come playoffs?

- Chemistry is looking good for them, all the pieces are starting to click and they still have a solid bench unit going for them. Iggy and Livingston haven't regressed, McGee is actually giving them valuable minutes and David West is having a bounce back season and Ian Clark is looking fantastic this year also.

6.If this becomes the new norm for Curry, will he ever be truly revered the way it was getting when he was the overwhelming force on a historic squad?

- I don't think he'll ever reach the status he had last year. He almost snatched the "face of the NBA" from LeBron prior to their finals loss. As much anybody would like to argue it, the Warriors are now KD's team and I'd bet that if they do win the championship this year, Curry will get overlooked for FMVP once again.

All that said, personally I don't think Curry gives a damn about any this. He has reached the point in his career that his career will be evaluated based off how many rings he collects in his career. Dude is already 2x MVP and the very first unanimous one at that. Plus everything basketball related has become much easier for himself and he is line for that super-max extension so therefore, money shouldn't be an issue. If that doesn't satisfy him, he can take solace in knowing that he is at least the face of Under Armor :p

Solid post, thanks for the input. The only thing I would comment on is the under armor joke and Curry not giving a ****. I do know Under Armor is not happy with a Nike guy taking the spotlight, some have speculated that UA might even incentivize his contract to play elsewhere and become that prolific guy again. And all these guys have an ego so how many FMVP do you think Curry would be OK with never winning?


He hasn't "taken" the reigns from anyone, all of the big 3 play well together. Don't create something that isn't there with your statements.
Of course they play well together, but there is this lil phenomena known as diminishing returns and Curry has been the biggest victim of it statistically. I dont agree that he hasn't taken the reigns when hes the most productive player, higher up the MVP charts and is a bigger talking point with the media in general. Curry himself has already begun to complain about the lack of PnR he is allowed to use.


btw you are definitely trolling with these questions....just because I drive my M3 at 25 mph doesn't mean it can't go faster. Just because Curry isn't exponentially head and shoulders above other players thus far statistically doesn't mean he's any less impactful, good, or whatever you want to term it.

Its only trolling if you're a homer...... Lemme explain it for you with your comp. Lets say theres a rev limiter on your M3, would you enjoy it more with it on or off? Thats sorta like Curry, a significantly limited M3.


Again, it seems like you are desperately looking for some inkling of lockerroom drama material, and I find that pathetic.

Hardly, Im asking people how they feel about the FACTS of the matter AND what could become of this.


I wasn't trying to say that Curry/Klay/Green were not also perfect for their system ... just that the biggest hole they had was perfectly and directly filled by the best possible player available for that role in KD.

I really think Kerr constantly changing lineups on the floor is interesting because he's putting units out there that will obviously struggle and leaving them for a relatively long time ... he's forcing guys to find a way to play together. Early in the year he'd put Livingston, Iguodala, KD, Looney, and West out there for a 5 minute run early in the 2nd ... 4 non-shooter almost non-scorers and KD, so of course KD went off, but now that lineup is getting scoring from players other than KD because defenses adjusted. I think Kerr is teaching the backup players that they have to stay aggressive with KD on the floor, and he's showing KD that while he's incredible as an iso player the game is easier when you play as a team, even with lesser offensive players.

Interesting take, wonder if any of the publications will write about the process. It sucks that we dont have a HEAT CHECK or whatever ESPN called it when the Big-3 formed. Seems like there was more coverage for that one and we knew more details.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 06:43 PM
I think Kerr has done a great job of keeping everybody involved. Green still leads the team in boards and assists; Klay is averaging more shots per game than anybody on the team; KD is leading the team in scoring, but from the games I've seen, Curry still get to handle the ball. Looks like everybody at the top is getting theirs and playing into each other. It reminds of of the Celtics when they brought the Big 3 2.0 in. Garnett, Allen and Pierce all sharing duties and doing what each does best.
Agreed with Kerr doing a great job and it does remind me abit of the Celtics Big-3 but on a higher level. This team seems even more cohesive, that said, there is no doubt the statistical dropoff was far more apparent for the Celtics Big-3 IMO. I think that was more a result of Rondo tho, he monopolized the ball to a substantial degree. Here there are no ball hogs.


Iggy seems to be the only one who has been hit hard by this. And that may be in part because of his age.
It definitely is, he comes off the bench so he should theoretically experience this the least, unless those other guys are in there with him and taking the burden upon themselves, which isn't out of the question since it seems the bench is where the shots have declined.


Would like to see him more involved, but hey.... they are on pace for one of the ten-best records in the history of the league, so...

What's great for GSW is that Ian Clark, McGee, and West have all proven to be effective role players and are posting scary per36 stats, McCaw seems to have a solid all-around game, looking at the stats, that suggests with improvement, he can do a bit of everything. And he's already hitting 3's at .375. He could turn out to be a great steal in the draft, as if GSW needs another one of those!

I don't see KD as 'taking over the reigns', more like sharing them, and making sure that while he and Curry are the leaders, Klay and Green are getting theirs, and the youngs guys are getting involved.

A good point, my only question is this. If they are all sharing the load, then what does it say about their talent/abilities that KD is undoubtedly their most productive player individually? That KD is the superior player or simply more aggressive?

tredigs
01-05-2017, 07:02 PM
He's really not "undoubtedly their most productive player individually" if we're talking offense here. Though I do think Curry helps KD far more than the opposite (teams still seem to heavily game-plan for Curry and try to get him out of wack, never so much for Klay or even KD), I don't think the gap is large in either direction. And 35 games in it can be complete noise as to who has been "better". Per-36 KD's at 27.1 PPG + 4.9 APG on a 65% TS to Curry's 26.1 PPG + 6.3 APG on a 63% TS. The RPM and On/Off splits favoring Curry, with the box-score-centric #'s like PER/BPM favoring KD.

I think Curry takes the bigger hit A) because teams still focus on him primarily while KD is seeing the most space of his life and B) he's more reticent and less needed to go on scoring rampages.

I will say that in the last couple games I've noticed a more concerted effort by Curry to get himself going, and he's starting to bring back some of the ridiculous moves we were seeing last season. This one the other night was pretty filthy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23V91IDs0Xg

Overall, all is pretty great for that team based on what could have been an extremely tough transition. I'm sure Curry feels a bit underutilized, but that should shake itself out as these guys get more familiar with each others games.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 08:32 PM
+/- metrics are generally considered to be more team oriented and more dependent on long term sample sizes. Individually, KD has been more prolific+efficient and hes widely recognized as a superior defender, thats why his box score based stats love him so much. Its harder for the general public/media to buy into the stats that attempt to capture the intangible influences.

Im with you on them being closer than the individual stats suggest based on the aforementioned defensive pressure and team influence based stats. Kind of similar to Wade and Bron in the playoffs that 1 year, they had close numbers but Bron got most of the defensive attention.

Its kind of why I feel Magic is underrated statistically, if we had RPM, RAPM, etc... back in the day, I think many superior "producers" would look inferior to him. Theres just something about the way these guys control the game. I have a theory that some players come into the league ready to produce big numbers but actually become better winners/game managers later in their careers when they may not be producing as they once did night in/out. I remember Pop saying something to that effect about Kobe, that he was always an epic scorer but hes now become an epic leader of men and it rises the level of play of this team. Im thinking he means more than it would if he were simply more efficient himself.

The other day Casey was saying something to that effect about LeBron, Bron was posting 30 PER in his youth, he no longer is but Casey thinks hes harder to gameplan for than ever and hes not as easily fooled.

Its called the phental state. Curry is there but at the same time, hes clearly capable of more and I find it hard to believe the team wouldn't be better off with him doing so. Like you said, hes making a concentrated effort now, its likely he took his complaint to Kerr and will see his touches/usage increase from here on out.

BKLYNpigeon
01-05-2017, 08:47 PM
Steph had a Historic Year last year. Probably the greatest season ever, and unaminous MVP.

It won't be duplicated again, even though we all want to see it.

Steph will be like the Steph 2 years ago. his numbers are still very good.

FlashBolt
01-05-2017, 09:14 PM
He did not have the greatest season ever.. stop that.

tredigs
01-05-2017, 09:43 PM
+/- metrics are generally considered to be more team oriented and more dependent on long term sample sizes. Individually, KD has been more prolific+efficient and hes widely recognized as a superior defender, thats why his box score based stats love him so much. Its harder for the general public/media to buy into the stats that attempt to capture the intangible influences.

Im with you on them being closer than the individual stats suggest based on the aforementioned defensive pressure and team influence based stats. Kind of similar to Wade and Bron in the playoffs that 1 year, they had close numbers but Bron got most of the defensive attention.

Its kind of why I feel Magic is underrated statistically, if we had RPM, RAPM, etc... back in the day, I think many superior "producers" would look inferior to him. Theres just something about the way these guys control the game. I have a theory that some players come into the league ready to produce big numbers but actually become better winners/game managers later in their careers when they may not be producing as they once did night in/out. I remember Pop saying something to that effect about Kobe, that he was always an epic scorer but hes now become an epic leader of men and it rises the level of play of this team. Im thinking he means more than it would if he were simply more efficient himself.

The other day Casey was saying something to that effect about LeBron, Bron was posting 30 PER in his youth, he no longer is but Casey thinks hes harder to gameplan for than ever and hes not as easily fooled.

Its called the phental state. Curry is there but at the same time, hes clearly capable of more and I find it hard to believe the team wouldn't be better off with him doing so. Like you said, hes making a concentrated effort now, its likely he took his complaint to Kerr and will see his touches/usage increase from here on out.

RPM is designed to not be team-oriented (why guys like DMC and Jimmy Butler can be in the top 10... but by and large the high usage players at the top of RPM are going to be leading top teams obviously), though standard offensive/defensive efficiency +/- like you have on bbref is for sure. The rest we're on the same page for sure.


He did not have the greatest season ever.. stop that.
Pre-injury in the reg season? Not the best but offensively it was extremely high up the list and has an argument over anybody else. Overall other seasons top it due to defense.

Chronz
01-05-2017, 10:12 PM
RPM is designed to not be team-oriented (why guys like DMC and Jimmy Butler can be in the top 10...
Lots of +/- stats have attempted the same and are still reliant on large samples + prone to external factors in much the same way regular old +/- is. Not sure if RPM is prior informed, if so, it could change drastically over time if its not a true barometer, we'll see.


but by and large the high usage players at the top of RPM are going to be leading top teams obviously), though standard offensive/defensive efficiency +/- like you have on bbref is for sure. The rest we're on the same page for sure.
Dont get me wrong, I love the stat, Im just saying its a harder sell to the public than stats directly attributed to the players. +/- stats are more for the purists, the kind that follow Bill Russells train of thought (the whole, pts, rebounds, assists etc... only capture a few minutes worth of play in a 48 minute game, what about the rest of those minutes, they're not doing nothing.

More-Than-Most
01-05-2017, 10:35 PM
I think its the smartest thing in the world... Curry looked gassed last year and even the year before and I think it hurt his performance come playoff time... Now he will go in fresh as ****... I have watched almost all of their games this year and I have not seen him breath heavy once or look like he is using all his energy ever... He is going to ****ing bake guys like harden come playoff time.

IndyRealist
01-05-2017, 11:32 PM
Lots of +/- stats have attempted the same and are still reliant on large samples + prone to external factors in much the same way regular old +/- is. Not sure if RPM is prior informed, if so, it could change drastically over time if its not a true barometer, we'll see.

Dont get me wrong, I love the stat, Im just saying its a harder sell to the public than stats directly attributed to the players. +/- stats are more for the purists, the kind that follow Bill Russells train of thought (the whole, pts, rebounds, assists etc... only capture a few minutes worth of play in a 48 minute game, what about the rest of those minutes, they're not doing nothing.

RPM is based on xRAPM, which is based on RAPM, which is a prior informed version of APM using ridge regression and a prior factor of 0. xRAPM uses a variable prior factor based on performance of previous seasons. It is not a good model for showing who performing well this season for the exact reasons it was made: it is overly reliant on previous years' data to differentiate a player from his teammates. So if Lebron suddenly started this season shooting 20%, RPM wouldn't really care because he has been outstanding for a decade.

I found a very good article here (https://cornerthreehoops.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/explaining-espns-real-plus-minus/) with a good breakdown of RPM:

Real Plus-Minus is meant to be predictive. Itís interested in how well a player will perform in the future, rather than what he did in the past. RPMís emphasis on prediction explains why it uses some of the tricks it does.

For instance, I mentioned earlier that RPM uses data from previous seasons in its priors. If my primary goal is to evaluate how well a player did this season, it wouldnít make a lot of sense to use data from other seasons. However, if I want to predict what will happen in the future, the older numbers can help me differentiate between players who have been consistently good (and will likely keep being good) and players who are merely going through a hot streak (and will likely regress to their mean).

This has a number of implications. One is that RPM tends to be skeptical of player improvements (or regressions) that exceed what is expected for a player that age. This season, Anthony Davis improved much faster than most 20-21 year old playes. People who watch basketball know that Davis is super talented and accelerated growth is expected from him. However, Real Plus-Minus doesnít understand this and suspects that Davisí numbers might be a random blip. As a result, Real Plus-Minus is liable to underestimate Davisís impact this season [2013-14].

On a less technical note, RPMís focus on prediction makes it a poor way to determine who should get end-of-season awards. I think this is an important point to emphasize because ESPN does exactly this in its introduction to RPM, using it to argue that Taj Gibson is a better candidate than Jamal Crawford for 6th Man of the Year. RPM is optimized to predict the future, not evaluate the past.

The moral of the story: BE SKEPTICAL of any stat that doesn't tell you how it's calculated.

IndyRealist
01-05-2017, 11:40 PM
Ok, so RPM currently has Kawhi Leonard #12, and Trevor Ariza #15. Does anyone think that Trevor Ariza is the 15th best player in the league, and right on Kawhi's heels? Or can it just not tell the difference between Ariza and Harden because they play so many minutes together?

That's +/- stats in a nutshell.

More-Than-Most
01-05-2017, 11:47 PM
Ok, so RPM currently has Kawhi Leonard #12, and Trevor Ariza #15. Does anyone think that Trevor Ariza is the 15th best player in the league, and right on Kawhi's heels? Or can it just not tell the difference between Ariza and Harden because they play so many minutes together?

That's +/- stats in a nutshell.

Its why I dont value Kyrie like others do.. Playing with Lebron/Harden/Durant/westy/curry should make everything so much easier.

It doesnt mean the guys these guys play with arent very good... Logic should come into play.

flea
01-05-2017, 11:57 PM
The moral of the story: BE SKEPTICAL of any stat that doesn't tell you how it's calculated.

100% agreed. If they won't tell me the inputs I'll treat it like the trash I presume it to be. I've quoted it once in a while before but why? If PER is mostly junk-in, junk-out at least I know what that junk is and can bring context. Until you posted that article I had very little idea of what ESPN's RPM was based on beyond vague descriptions of "regression models." I still have very little idea so it's useless to me.

Side rant unrelated to your post or anyone's post in particular: it's annoying when things like BPM (from BB-Ref) get lumped in with actual +/- since they use and tell different things. BPM is a box score stat like WS and PER. The only difference is that WS/VORP is tied to actual team wins, BPM is tied to actual team box score performance, and PER is tied to dick-all. All of that is very different from actual +/- and whatever proprietary +/- that uses play by play data (including ESPN's RPM).

Chronz
01-06-2017, 12:16 AM
Ok, so RPM currently has Kawhi Leonard #12, and Trevor Ariza #15. Does anyone think that Trevor Ariza is the 15th best player in the league, and right on Kawhi's heels? Or can it just not tell the difference between Ariza and Harden because they play so many minutes together?

That's +/- stats in a nutshell.

Isn't that the complaint everyone has against any stat, that so and so ranks here and such. harkens back to pantheon days of landry fields being an all nba player and possible mvp or something.

I get the idea of a sniff test but it still hints at an extremely important pairing. Surprised Kawhi is so low if this is indeed pi. Would've thought he graded higher.

Ill check the link in abit but if it's based off rapm does that mean it includes the whole height factor.

Chronz
01-06-2017, 12:26 AM
On the subject of stats, i wish we had one for players who force the most clogged toilets ( on both ends). Like right now the Blazers ran alot of action to get Turner a mismatch on the block and the smaller player strips him and it goes out on him. It's not a turnover but it just killed 14 seconds of the shot clock. For defensive players i guess it would count as deflections. Maybe also count deflections allowed

Vee-Rex
01-06-2017, 02:10 AM
RPM is based on xRAPM, which is based on RAPM, which is a prior informed version of APM using ridge regression and a prior factor of 0. xRAPM uses a variable prior factor based on performance of previous seasons. It is not a good model for showing who performing well this season for the exact reasons it was made: it is overly reliant on previous years' data to differentiate a player from his teammates. So if Lebron suddenly started this season shooting 20%, RPM wouldn't really care because he has been outstanding for a decade.

I found a very good article here (https://cornerthreehoops.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/explaining-espns-real-plus-minus/) with a good breakdown of RPM:


The moral of the story: BE SKEPTICAL of any stat that doesn't tell you how it's calculated.

I get crucified for my thoughts on RPM. I appreciate the stat but I don't think using it as a primary means of comparisons is good.

I agree with your posts.

Vee-Rex
01-06-2017, 02:38 AM
Its why I dont value Kyrie like others do.. Playing with Lebron/Harden/Durant/westy/curry should make everything so much easier.

It doesnt mean the guys these guys play with arent very good... Logic should come into play.

Kyrie's RPM is often used against him.

I think the problem is we want stats to accurately and flawlessly answer our questions and that'll probably never happen.

(example cause I'm not trying to argue): Who is better... Kyrie or Kyle Lowry? Maybe it's both?

Maybe if you need a better leader and backbone you go with Lowry. Maybe if you need a better and more unstoppable scorer to put you over the top against an unstoppable GSW team you go with Kyrie.

Maybe LeBron's impact makes Kyrie look better than he is. Maybe kyrie's a better leader than he was 3 years ago and needs a team built around him to show it.

Maybe Lowry has had better coaches in his career to unlock his potential. Maybe Lowry is just much better and will prove it come playoffs, and would dominate if he had Bron instead of Demar.

Stats are nothing but results. They don't give us the 'why' that we so desperately need to answer our questions. +/- contains more 'why' questions compared to traditional stats because they include factors that don't directly correlate to one specific player in addition to the normal circumstances that can impact the player.

I appreciate stats but we'll always need logic. Thus, we endlessly bicker like immature children (at least I do anyway). :laugh2:

Ultimately it's healthy, though.

IndyRealist
01-06-2017, 04:43 AM
Isn't that the complaint everyone has against any stat, that so and so ranks here and such. harkens back to pantheon days of landry fields being an all nba player and possible mvp or something.

I get the idea of a sniff test but it still hints at an extremely important pairing. Surprised Kawhi is so low if this is indeed pi. Would've thought he graded higher.

Ill check the link in abit but if it's based off rapm does that mean it includes the whole height factor.

I got the rankings directly from ESPN's website.

All variations of +/- attempt to differentiate a player from his teammates. So it's not so much a sniff test as it is deciding whether they accomplished what they set out to do. No other statistic I can find ranks Ariza so highly. It simply does not correlate with any other measure. We have no other way of independently verifying the accuracy of RPM because they do not publish their method. So either they know something no one else knows, which is unlikely considering how much RAPM has been torn apart, or they are not successfully separating players from their teammates.

I for one am interesting in how priors are chosen. I suspect there's some fudging in there to make certain players stand out over others. Not using a consistent prior inherently adds bias because you're adding in a judgement call. That's not how good statistics work. You develop a method and it should work, you shouldn't have to change a variable from player to player by hand to make it work.

And regardless, the point still stands that there RPM attempts to predict FUTURE performance. It does not evaluate current or past performance. So RPM currently thinks Chris Paul will outperform the rest of the league. It does not say he IS the #1 player right now.

kobe4thewinbang
01-08-2017, 03:42 PM
I think Curry is more skilled than Durant. Durant still has no real post game and shoots too many threes. See what happened the other night vs Grizzlies? Draymond was super pissed that KD wanted the ball just to shoot a long three with time remaining in the shot clock instead of running a "Warriors" style play with some passes. If I'm Coach Kerr, I want Curry shooting those shots, not Durant, since Steph and Klay are like 3PT wizards. If you're going to let KD have that chance to win the game, then swing him the ball after a nice passing play. If that happens again, and it becomes "You shoot, now I shoot, my turn, your turn", GS's offense will dry up quick and lead to ego troubles.

tredigs
01-09-2017, 02:39 PM
Since the posting of this thread Curry is averaging 35/5/6 on 51/41/88. GJ Chronz.

tredigs
01-09-2017, 02:42 PM
I think Curry is more skilled than Durant. Durant still has no real post game and shoots too many threes. See what happened the other night vs Grizzlies? Draymond was super pissed that KD wanted the ball just to shoot a long three with time remaining in the shot clock instead of running a "Warriors" style play with some passes. If I'm Coach Kerr, I want Curry shooting those shots, not Durant, since Steph and Klay are like 3PT wizards. If you're going to let KD have that chance to win the game, then swing him the ball after a nice passing play. If that happens again, and it becomes "You shoot, now I shoot, my turn, your turn", GS's offense will dry up quick and lead to ego troubles.

Curry should always start with the ball there since he's the better playmaker/passer and they're essentially equal as scorers. Gotta let the playmaker make the play. From what I've heard, that's what Draymond yelled at him for (not thrilled that Draymond threw a fit about it publicly but what can you do).

valade16
01-09-2017, 03:13 PM
One thing I've always used on a personal analysis standpoint is if the +/- stat has wild swings year to year that coincide with far different rosters and teams that's probably indicative the stat is affected by the rest of the roster to a large degree.

If it were a true measure of a players impact separate from his teammates, we wouldn't see massive fluctuations would we?

tredigs
01-09-2017, 03:26 PM
One thing I've always used on a personal analysis standpoint is if the +/- stat has wild swings year to year that coincide with far different rosters and teams that's probably indicative the stat is affected by the rest of the roster to a large degree.

If it were a true measure of a players impact separate from his teammates, we wouldn't see massive fluctuations would we?

Which by and large is very rare with RPM/RAPM. The whole point is to adjust for teammates/opposition.

Sometimes people just say "+/-" and don't distinguish between all the myriad of stats.

valade16
01-09-2017, 03:50 PM
Which by and large is very rare with RPM/RAPM. The whole point is to adjust for teammates/opposition.

Sometimes people just say "+/-" and don't distinguish between all the myriad of stats.

Not to beat a dead horse but just looking at Ariza I see:

17: 4.14
16: 0.57
15: 1.58
14: 0.94

I should have stated that the exceptions to my rule are if a player was injured a specific year which could impact their performance or in truly unique circumstances where a coach is able to maximize their talents or skillsets.

I don't know if that is what is going on with Ariza here, but it seems very evident that his RPM this season is because of Harden and his teammates and not that Ariza, at 33, managed to drastically improve his game to that degree.

Of course, he could very well be an outlier and not the norm.

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 04:02 PM
Which by and large is very rare with RPM/RAPM. The whole point is to adjust for teammates/opposition.

Sometimes people just say "+/-" and don't distinguish between all the myriad of stats.

Three games. And two of them were against an average team.

Vee-Rex
01-09-2017, 04:42 PM
Not to beat a dead horse but just looking at Ariza I see:

17: 4.14
16: 0.57
15: 1.58
14: 0.94

I should have stated that the exceptions to my rule are if a player was injured a specific year which could impact their performance or in truly unique circumstances where a coach is able to maximize their talents or skillsets.

I don't know if that is what is going on with Ariza here, but it seems very evident that his RPM this season is because of Harden and his teammates and not that Ariza, at 33, managed to drastically improve his game to that degree.

Of course, he could very well be an outlier and not the norm.

I feel like there are more of these 'outliers' than people want to admit, and I believe it's impossible to completely disregard the impact of teammates based on league averages.

Similarly, look at Marreese Speights:

16-17 RPM: 2.58 (LAC)
15-16 RPM: -1.24 (GSW)
14-15 RPM: -1.45 (GSW)
13-14 RPM: -5.42 (GSW)

Now, are we to believe that Speights is a much, muuuuuuch better player now than he was last year? I doubt it. I think the answer lies somewhere with the different lineups, schemes, teammates, and coaching rotations.

You can look at Zaza's wildly fluctuating RPMs over the last 3 years and probably conclude that he has moreso to do with him playing for 3 different teams than him being a wildly different player each year.

Chronz
01-09-2017, 05:17 PM
I got the rankings directly from ESPN's website.
Well yeah, pretty much the only site to get them no?


All variations of +/- attempt to differentiate a player from his teammates. So it's not so much a sniff test as it is deciding whether they accomplished what they set out to do. No other statistic I can find ranks Ariza so highly. It simply does not correlate with any other measure. We have no other way of independently verifying the accuracy of RPM because they do not publish their method. So either they know something no one else knows, which is unlikely considering how much RAPM has been torn apart, or they are not successfully separating players from their teammates.

Im just saying, everyone degrades a stat by showing players they disagree with. No other stat had Landry Fields as an elite player but WP sure did IIRC.



I for one am interesting in how priors are chosen. I suspect there's some fudging in there to make certain players stand out over others. Not using a consistent prior inherently adds bias because you're adding in a judgement call. That's not how good statistics work. You develop a method and it should work, you shouldn't have to change a variable from player to player by hand to make it work.
And regardless, the point still stands that there RPM attempts to predict FUTURE performance. It does not evaluate current or past performance. So RPM currently thinks Chris Paul will outperform the rest of the league. It does not say he IS the #1 player right now.

I'd be curious what the NPI version of this stat would look like for that very reason but also how much it weighs prior performances because I dont really see how CP3 would rank so highly without considering the present. IIRC CP3 wasn't the #1 player in the league (in terms of production or value) by this stat the last couple of years so his prior performance shouldn't rank him this highly, but I think on the year he has the highest raw +/- differentials last I checked, surely that has played a role.

tredigs
01-09-2017, 08:13 PM
Steph Curry Western Conference Player of the Week.

IndyRealist
01-09-2017, 08:41 PM
Well yeah, pretty much the only site to get them no?
Just saying I didn't get them secondhand from someone else's analysis.



Im just saying, everyone degrades a stat by showing players they disagree with. No other stat had Landry Fields as an elite player but WP sure did IIRC.
RAPM had Landry Fields as the #33 best player in 2012 as a sophomore, and the #43 best player in 2013. I don't have ESPN insider so I can't look at his RPM for those years, but if RAPM had him that high, it's likely RPM did as well.



I'd be curious what the NPI version of this stat would look like for that very reason but also how much it weighs prior performances because I dont really see how CP3 would rank so highly without considering the present. IIRC CP3 wasn't the #1 player in the league (in terms of production or value) by this stat the last couple of years so his prior performance shouldn't rank him this highly, but I think on the year he has the highest raw +/- differentials last I checked, surely that has played a role.

It considers the present, the issue is that it either minimizes or exaggerates it based on both prior performance and the judgement call of whoever is choosing the priors. Consider if CP3 played hurt this year and his numbers were down across the board. RPM would say that what's happening is a fluke, because it's out of line with his previous performance. So it would still rank him substantially higher than his current performance would indicate, because it says that in the FUTURE it expects CP3 to return to form. It's a predictor, not an analysis tool. And that assumes that the person choosing the priors isn't a Clippers fan. (I'm picking on the priors a lot. For all I know there could be an impartial formula for picking them. But we'll never know, because telling us would open them up to criticism.)

Clint Olbrock
01-09-2017, 09:36 PM
Dray doesn't like it, that's for sure :laugh2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOf7JipjtLc

FlashBolt
01-09-2017, 10:12 PM
Dray doesn't like it, that's for sure :laugh2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOf7JipjtLc

0:17, steph throws that ball to KD like a child who was told he had to go timeout lmao

Chronz
01-09-2017, 10:37 PM
Dray doesn't like it, that's for sure :laugh2:



LOL, classic Mark Jackson right there, liking the stagnant play. Thats why you ringless you *****

Clint Olbrock
01-09-2017, 11:08 PM
LOL, classic Mark Jackson right there, liking the stagnant play. Thats why you ringless you *****

Yeah, he didn't know how to use that roster properly.

Chronz
01-10-2017, 01:13 AM
Im constantly telling my friends, that guy needs to stick to his "hands down, man down" shtick and leave the actual analysis to the pros.

nastynice
01-10-2017, 01:49 AM
I think Curry is more skilled than Durant. Durant still has no real post game and shoots too many threes. See what happened the other night vs Grizzlies? Draymond was super pissed that KD wanted the ball just to shoot a long three with time remaining in the shot clock instead of running a "Warriors" style play with some passes. If I'm Coach Kerr, I want Curry shooting those shots, not Durant, since Steph and Klay are like 3PT wizards. If you're going to let KD have that chance to win the game, then swing him the ball after a nice passing play. If that happens again, and it becomes "You shoot, now I shoot, my turn, your turn", GS's offense will dry up quick and lead to ego troubles.

This is exactly what I thought of when I read the thread title. Curry and KD still haven't figured out how to flow in the offense together, they just look confused at times. I think the crazy talent is masking some serious issues, and at least Draymond Green agrees with me.

I feel like they keep having ****** fourth quarters when the heat is on because they don't know wether to take over or defer. It's like they're forcing everything and overthinking, instead of playing in a flow

Still got a while, but still need to make some significant strides to be ready for playoffs

IKnowHoops
01-10-2017, 02:32 AM
Something about Durant's presence that won't allow Curry's light to shine its brightest. Without that Curry, they can't hit that Curry hot level of dominance day in and day out like they were last year. Curry was doing the impossible last year and I think Durant/management have cut his nuts off. Curry is a nuclear weapon IMO that should be unleashed all game long while Durant and Klay play off of him.

nastynice
01-10-2017, 07:00 AM
Something about Durant's presence that won't allow Curry's light to shine its brightest. Without that Curry, they can't hit that Curry hot level of dominance day in and day out like they were last year. Curry was doing the impossible last year and I think Durant/management have cut his nuts off. Curry is a nuclear weapon IMO that should be unleashed all game long while Durant and Klay play off of him.

KDs too good to just play off of someone. Curry is too. They need to figure out when and who to run the offense through, both play off each other.

kobe4thewinbang
01-10-2017, 08:48 PM
Curry should always start with the ball there since he's the better playmaker/passer and they're essentially equal as scorers. Gotta let the playmaker make the play. From what I've heard, that's what Draymond yelled at him for (not thrilled that Draymond threw a fit about it publicly but what can you do).I mean, yeah, airing your laundry in public so to speak, but you're right. Curry is a quality playmaker and if this was the playoffs, they'd have just lost an important game cuz of that clash.

JasonJohnHorn
01-10-2017, 11:56 PM
A good point, my only question is this. If they are all sharing the load, then what does it say about their talent/abilities that KD is undoubtedly their most productive player individually? That KD is the superior player or simply more aggressive?

More aggressive. He's coming from a team where he competed with Westbrook for shots and time with the ball. Now he's on a team where everybody shares. So when he's taking charge, the guys aren't in tune with that. They share, so they let it slide, but I think as the season goes along, it'll work out.

Like that play where KD insisted on the ball. To be honest... I think that was the best option. The Grizz has Randolph on KD and the Warriors had 5 3pt shooters on the floor spreading it out and opening the lane. Perfect iso match up. Z-Bo can guard the lane with somebody driving on him, especially somebody as agile as KD. So he gives him space in case he drives, that way Z-Bo can at least get an early first step in toe guard him. But that leaves some space, and given KD's height, he has space to take a clean shot, which is what he did. Got an open shot. Problem? He was cold that night and missed. Move that play the other way. Curry on ISO against Conley, who is a great defender? Not as easy a play to make. People have been making something of that play and Green yelling and Curry's uninspired pick and pass, but at the end of the day, it was a good call.

Problem is, the Warriors are used to running a play and creating an open shot that way. KD's shot was as good as any they were likely to get out of running play, but KD's play didn't get the other guys involved. That's how they like to play. KD is used to forcing himself into the game because if he didn't, Westy would eat up all the shots.

They'll work it out. They all want to win.

lol, please
01-11-2017, 12:05 AM
Since the posting of this thread Curry is averaging 35/5/6 on 51/41/88. GJ Chronz.

:clap: