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View Full Version : All-Time Playoffs: 5th seed versus 12th seed



Shammyguy3
01-02-2017, 02:59 PM
GMs used private auction bids to acquire players and form a roster. There were 12 playoff teams, and each matchup is up to PSD users to vote on for a winner to move onto the next round. All players are healthy, using their multi-year primes to base their production on. Who wins this matchup in a 7-game series?

5th seed
C = Shaquille O'Neal / Brad Daugherty
PF = LaMarcus Aldridge / Jermaine O'Neal
SF = Dale Ellis / Michael Finley
SG = Dan Majerle / Richard Hamilton
PG = Magic Johnson / Kyrie Irving

12th seed
PG: Russell Westbrook - James Harden
SG: Vince Carter - Marques Johnson
SF: Tracy McGrady - Cedric Maxwell
PF: Anthony Davis - Al Horford
C: Willis Reed - Brad Miller

5th seed write-up

Congrats to AI for making the playoffs. My honest assessment of his team, and I say this as someone who likes AI and thinks he is generally good at these games, is that he never finished this team off properly and that’s the reason why he was selling nonstop at the deadline to move that glut in the backcourt. The reality of basketball has always been that elite top talent wins. Just ask the Warriors, Cavs, Heat, etc. We could go back to the Lakers, Bulls, Celtics if we really wanted to be historical. The exceptions to that rule are teams with incredible chemistry or defense like the 2004 Pistons. I built my team the classic way. I took one of the most dominant centers in NBA History and paired him with the best passer in NBA history. Shaq dominated the early 2000s and wiped every center off the face of the Earth. He led the league in fg% in 8 out of 9 seasons and in his playoff prime averaged approximately 30ppg/15rpg/3bpg while averaging 42mpg. That was with Derek Fisher as his point guard. Imagine him with a better PG? Now imagine him with the best PG in NBA History. Magic is first all-time in NBA History with 11.2apg and a vastly underrated scorer with a TS% of 61% for his career ranks him 9th all time. To have two elite efficiency offensive players who did completely different things out on the floor makes my offense incredible tough to stop. That is why I avoided high volume players and targeted elite off the ball options.

Here is a game for you… Name this player:

Starting SG – Seattle Supersonics – Averaged 26ppg / 5rpg / 3apg – Shot 50% fg / 42% 3pt

Ray Allen? Nope. Dale Ellis from 1986-1989. He is the perfect wing to run transition with Magic or drag defenders out to the perimeter to give room for Shaq to operate in the low-post. That’s what I wanted out of my wings and that’s why I was thrilled to get Dale Ellis and Dan Majerle. Majerle was a nice mid-teens scorer who played all-nba defense and could also shoot +%40 from 3pt. They will be rotating with Rip Hamilton (3 and D former NBA Champion) and Michael Finley (another +%40 from 3pt shooter). We will always have elite shooting out on the floor with Magic and Shaq. The final piece was finding a stretch 4 who could play off Shaq and didn’t turn the ball over. Why LMA? Over his career Aldridge has consistently taken 50% or more of his shots from 10 feet out and more from the basket. Compared to most bigs, he lives in the mid-range and has shown with that he even can step out and hit the occasional 3. We are content with him setting screens and playing in the high post where he has thrived. He’s also #2 all-time in NBA History in lowest turnover percentage. We value that highly as a team that is looking to dominate offensively. Aldridge is #2. Finley is #9. Dale Ellis is #25. Dan Marjerle is #41. Keep in mind those are all-time rankings in lowest turnover percentage. I have 4 of the top 50 to pair with Shaq and Magic. All can shoot and never turn the ball over. The perfect combination of elite chemistry and top end talent. That brings us to AI’s team. He doesn’t have the top tier talent or the chemistry to win in the playoffs. There is no MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Moses, or even a Barkley, Curry, Durant level talent. That is why another GM told me that his team was “mediocre” and another said that this was the “best possible matchup” for me. Reed was a PF/C back in the 60s/70s and played at 6’9 / 215lbs. He is giving up 4 inches and about 100 pounds to one of the most dominant players in NBA History in Shaq. Then he has a glut of 4 high volume players who love handling the basketball and doing it all. When has a team with 4 high volume guards won anything? I don’t think those players make each other better at all. Maybe if he had 2 and a better frontcourt that would be a different story but the top end talent is missing and the chemistry is definitely missing. I believe I have the better team and deserve to advance to the next round. Thank you to those of you that actually took the time to read this whole thing. GL

Lakers + Giants
01-02-2017, 07:45 PM
Props to both teams, I know AI busted his *** but the deadline came up and not enough deals were made to finish off our teams.

KoB's team is just too dominant here.

PatsSoxKnicks
01-03-2017, 12:15 AM
One thing I disagree with in KoB's write-up is saying AI has no top end talent. Isn't someone whose currently averaging a triple double on the season (only done by Oscar) practically make him a top end talent? Then another guy is averaging 30-12. And these guys have put together great seasons before (Harden finishing 2nd in MVP voting 2 years ago and Westbrook with a ridiculous BPM over the last 3 years).

That said, the chemistry of AI's team is not great. Harden off the bench is awesome but T-Mac playing with Westbrook is a really bad fit. I'm not sure how that'd work. I can see chemistry costing AI in this matchup.

jon32
01-03-2017, 12:34 AM
im sour that I was tossed out for a team that should have been DQ'd. I played by the rules and was defeated by a team that didnt. that being said....im still a *****, and as much as I hate the Magic/Shaq team......theyre better.

Dade County
01-03-2017, 02:20 AM
Shaq would quickly get into foul trouble, 12 seed has too many playmakers and attackers.

AI
01-03-2017, 05:49 AM
Shaq would quickly get into foul trouble, 12 seed has too many playmakers and attackers.

This is something many people are overlooking. The 12th seed would make a living in the paint by attacking the basket and getting to the FT line. Westbrook (8.8 FTA), Harden (10.2 FTA) and T-Mac (8.2 FTA) are all guys who draw fouls and get to the FT line with ease. Add in prime Vince and prime AD to the equation and I just don't see how they'll be stopped, considering that they have too many weapons and they'll be able to exploit more matchups than the 5 seed. Besides Shaq on Reed, I don't see anywhere else that the 5 seed is better.

The 12 seed can also go small at times and just completely outrun the 5 seed out of the gym. Imagine them running out a lineup of Westbrook/Harden/Vince/T-Mac/AD.. Holy hell that would be amazing. The fact that they have Harden coming off the bench in a super-sub role shows you just how talented that squad is.

Here are the 3-year primes for the main guys on the 12th seed:

Russell Westbrook
26.6 PPG | 9.8 AST | 8.1 REB | 8.8 FTA | 1.9 STL | 28.6 PER | .231 WS/48 | 11.2 BPM

Vince Carter
26.1 PPG | 5.6 REB | 3.9 AST | 1.5 STL | 40% 3P% | 6.3 FTA | 23.1 PER | .179 WS/48 | 5.3 BPM

Tracy McGrady
28.2 PPG | 7.3 REB | 5.3 AST | 1.6 STL | 8.2 FTA | 26.7 PER | .213 WS/48 | 7.1 BPM

PF Anthony Davis
25.4 PPG | 10.5 REB | 1.4 STL | 2.6 BLK | 7.5 FTA | 28.2 PER | .217 WS/48 | 4.8 BPM

Willis Reed
21.3 PPG | 14.1 REB | 2.1 AST | 20.4 PER | .212 WS/48

James Harden
28.2 PPG | 8.1 AST | 6.3 AST | 1.7 STL | 10.2 FTA | 37% 3P% | 26.4 PER | .604 TS% | .242 WS/48 | 8.1 BPM

KnicksorBust
01-03-2017, 09:00 AM
im sour that I was tossed out for a team that should have been DQ'd. I played by the rules and was defeated by a team that didnt. that being said....im still a *****, and as much as I hate the Magic/Shaq team......theyre better.

Feel free to vote then. :)


This is something many people are overlooking. The 12th seed would make a living in the paint by attacking the basket and getting to the FT line. Westbrook (8.8 FTA), Harden (10.2 FTA) and T-Mac (8.2 FTA) are all guys who draw fouls and get to the FT line with ease. Add in prime Vince and prime AD to the equation and I just don't see how they'll be stopped, considering that they have too many weapons and they'll be able to exploit more matchups than the 5 seed. Besides Shaq on Reed, I don't see anywhere else that the 5 seed is better.

The 12 seed can also go small at times and just completely outrun the 5 seed out of the gym. Imagine them running out a lineup of Westbrook/Harden/Vince/T-Mac/AD.. Holy hell that would be amazing. The fact that they have Harden coming off the bench in a super-sub role shows you just how talented that squad is.

Here are the 3-year primes for the main guys on the 12th seed:

Russell Westbrook
26.6 PPG | 9.8 AST | 8.1 REB | 8.8 FTA | 1.9 STL | 28.6 PER | .231 WS/48 | 11.2 BPM

Vince Carter
26.1 PPG | 5.6 REB | 3.9 AST | 1.5 STL | 40% 3P% | 6.3 FTA | 23.1 PER | .179 WS/48 | 5.3 BPM

Tracy McGrady
28.2 PPG | 7.3 REB | 5.3 AST | 1.6 STL | 8.2 FTA | 26.7 PER | .213 WS/48 | 7.1 BPM

PF Anthony Davis
25.4 PPG | 10.5 REB | 1.4 STL | 2.6 BLK | 7.5 FTA | 28.2 PER | .217 WS/48 | 4.8 BPM

Willis Reed
21.3 PPG | 14.1 REB | 2.1 AST | 20.4 PER | .212 WS/48

James Harden
28.2 PPG | 8.1 AST | 6.3 AST | 1.7 STL | 10.2 FTA | 37% 3P% | 26.4 PER | .604 TS% | .242 WS/48 | 8.1 BPM

Any reason why you left out the TS% of everybody but Harden?

Magic - 61%
Majerle - 56%
Ellis - 58%
LMA - 55%
Shaq - 59%

All of your guys except Harden are below that. I checked. My team is more efficienct, better chemistry, and can play in the half court with inside dominance (Shaq) and elite shooting (Ellis/Dan/Rip/Finley/Kyrie), or in transition with the greatest fastbreak leader in NBA History (Magic). You also ignore the fact that Westbrook is averaging 5.3 turnovers per game and Harden is averaging 5.7 turnovers per game. You can't have all the good things that come with insane volume and none of the negatives. I have no trouble admitting Westy is having a great season but he doesn't fit with your team at all. All of those staggering scoring stats are from years where each one of those players was the top guy on his team. Now they have to learn to share with Westbrook... Harden...McGrady... and VC? And that's not even factoring in getting your bigs ANY touches. You also have the nerve to say that Shaq is my only advantage ignoring Magic Johnson one of the greatest players of all-time. That's just disrespectful. You just threw together a bunch of high volume scorers and hoped it would it would stick. That's not enough to win a playoff series in an all-time game. Chemistry and building a team that makes sense counts in these games.


One thing I disagree with in KoB's write-up is saying AI has no top end talent. Isn't someone whose currently averaging a triple double on the season (only done by Oscar) practically make him a top end talent? Then another guy is averaging 30-12. And these guys have put together great seasons before (Harden finishing 2nd in MVP voting 2 years ago and Westbrook with a ridiculous BPM over the last 3 years).

Shammy made the groups, not me, and I think he nailed it.

Group 1: Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Tim Duncan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon

Group 2: Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Moses Malone, David Robinson

Group 3: Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, John Stockton, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Julius Erving, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Bill Russell

Who are you bumping for Westbrook? Seriously. Look at the names I listed. MJ, KAJ, Wilt, and you want to throw Westbrook's name as a "top end talent." Come on. Maybe...Maybe he could have gone in group 4 but the point is that his team does not have anyone from the top groups. That's a fact.


That said, the chemistry of AI's team is not great. Harden off the bench is awesome but T-Mac playing with Westbrook is a really bad fit. I'm not sure how that'd work. I can see chemistry costing AI in this matchup.

Don't forget to vote. :clap:


Props to both teams, I know AI busted his *** but the deadline came up and not enough deals were made to finish off our teams.

KoB's team is just too dominant here.

Thanks LG.

Super.
01-03-2017, 12:51 PM
12 seed has too many ISO guys. They'll never win

Ebbs
01-03-2017, 12:59 PM
This is close. AI is better 2-4, Westbrook would torch Magic and Magic would torch Westbrook. Reed played big dominant C's. I think he's one of a few good options to play against Shaq.

PatsSoxKnicks
01-03-2017, 04:40 PM
Shammy made the groups, not me, and I think he nailed it.

Group 1: Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Tim Duncan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon

Group 2: Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Moses Malone, David Robinson

Group 3: Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, John Stockton, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Julius Erving, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Bill Russell

Who are you bumping for Westbrook? Seriously. Look at the names I listed. MJ, KAJ, Wilt, and you want to throw Westbrook's name as a "top end talent." Come on. Maybe...Maybe he could have gone in group 4 but the point is that his team does not have anyone from the top groups. That's a fact.


Note that I said "top end talent" and not top end career. All of the guys in those groups have definitely had better careers, there's no doubt about that. But talent wise? Peak? Again, Westbrook is averaging a triple double right now. His 3-year peak BPM is 4th all-time (valade has those #'s) behind only MJ, Curry and Lebron I believe. That's definitely top end talent. He just doesn't have the career accomplishments to match the talent/stats.

valade16
01-03-2017, 04:59 PM
Note that I said "top end talent" and not top end career. All of the guys in those groups have definitely had better careers, there's no doubt about that. But talent wise? Peak? Again, Westbrook is averaging a triple double right now. His 3-year peak BPM is 4th all-time (valade has those #'s) behind only MJ, Curry and Lebron I believe. That's definitely top end talent. He just doesn't have the career accomplishments to match the talent/stats.

That is why this matchup is tough for me because peak play Harden, Westy, T-Mac and even AD are all far better than they'd be in a careers game. I also think those guards would be a matchup nightmare especially considering the lack of all-time perimeter defenders for KoB.

The problem I have is AI's team is built to run and KoB has Magic, so I'm not sure turning the game into a track meet is a good strategy. Also, the closest approximation Reed faced to Shaq was Wilt:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1=chambwi01&hint=Willis+Reed&player_id2_select=Willis+Reed&player_id2=reedwi01

And even old Wilt seemed to have won that matchup. Now it's prime Shaq. Leaning KoB here but I really want to be talked in to voting for AI because I think his team has a ton of talent, I'm just not sure how he can exploit KoB.

mngopher35
01-04-2017, 02:15 AM
And even old Wilt seemed to have won that matchup. Now it's prime Shaq. Leaning KoB here but I really want to be talked in to voting for AI because I think his team has a ton of talent, I'm just not sure how he can exploit KoB.

Basically agree with this.

I think KOB wins this match up in the end but AI has so much talent, too bad he got the 12 seed (I had him higher).