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Jeffy25
12-24-2016, 02:13 PM
9-20, with great young talent and a great coach

What's missing?

c.c.
12-24-2016, 02:19 PM
Veteran leadership

tredigs
12-24-2016, 02:28 PM
The young guns are playing strong offensively but their D is just a wreck (that includes Towns, who has disappointed there), and their bench sucks.

Crackadalic
12-24-2016, 03:10 PM
They don't know how to turn the individual into a team.

They play exactly like an all star NCAA college team with a bunch of guys oozzing with talent but they failed to do the right thing, the right plays, defensive positions etc.

Just a bunch of kids who doesn't play the team game just yet. That's why I thought it was silly to claim them top 4 worthy even if they had top 4 talent. They are another year away from getting there.

basketfan4life
12-24-2016, 03:13 PM
Wiggins i think is another factor. I tought it will be a breakout year for him, and he had a great run at the beginning of the season. But his %fg got worse, his scoring got worse. He is not an all around player yet too. With his height and lenght i tought at leats he would be a good rebounder but that is not the case. Actually lavine looks like he is going to be their 2nd option, it is a catch but not out of reach at this point.

GodsSon
12-24-2016, 03:25 PM
I thought they'd be competing for 8th on talent alone, but their youth still need some seasoning.

Another top 5-7 pick in a strong draft and they'll be ready to climb next year.

More-Than-Most
12-24-2016, 03:32 PM
Defense.... I dont like wiggins/towns defense at all... Its so shocking really and maybe its an effort thing but both guys seem so lackluster on defense. I could be wrong really but every game i watch them it seems they cant stop anybody.

warfelg
12-24-2016, 03:52 PM
I personally think that having D'Antoni as HC would have been better. This was a group with Rubio, LaVine, Wiggins, and KAT built to play fast.

Clint Olbrock
12-24-2016, 04:11 PM
Their top 3 guys are all 21... The oldest guy in their rotation is 28.

Thibs doesn't play a lot of guys, which is his MO. He really needs and offensive coordinator or something, he has never focused on offense, which was fine with the Bulls teams full of veterans but with a bunch of young guys.. Well, you see the result. Just need a bit less predictable offense, let some of these role players earn their money.

As others have mentioned, they're one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA.. Which is odd, because that is supposed to be what Thibs was going to fix but I guess you can't teach effort.

The Wolves have the youngest average age of players in their rotation and starting 5 in the NBA(http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison), what do you really expect?

dhopisthename
12-24-2016, 04:26 PM
just saw this on reddit. Wolves starting 5 positional rank in DRPM: Rubio 3/85, LaVine 82/85, Wiggins 80/80, Dieng 3/93, Towns 69/69. I think that just about tells the whole story. For all the offensive gives their young core has they have not done anything yet on defense.

Dade County
12-24-2016, 09:19 PM
9-20, with great young talent and a great coach

What's missing?

Yeah they need to start winning, it won't be fair if they land a top 3 pick.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
12-24-2016, 09:23 PM
Young talent in the NBA doesn't develop and turn into wins as quickly as other sports.

Bruno
12-25-2016, 01:37 AM
1. No bench

2. 4th worst defensive rebounding team despite running a two tower system. the're trading size for offensive flow and have nothing to show for it from a DRTG% perspective.

3. Wiggins is a one dimensional offensive player who will be most valuable in a few years when he learns to be a lock own wing. he's a best of seven match up based apex kind of guy, he doesn't have enough versatility to carry a regular season team offensively. rebounding is also a weakness.

4. Rubio as a non shooter in a twin tower system. on paper its nice, towns and dieng can spread the floor. but in real time, they are bigs who aren't traditionally spacing, the both occupy the paint way too often to be considered floor spreading foundations within their offense. Rubio as a non shooter works with a small ball four whos actually running sets around the perimiter and they don't have those pieces. i like Rubio but you can't have a non shooter PG in a traditional twin tower set up right now.

5. Losing countless games in the closing minutes of games. this could be a veteran issue, but its more likley related to the league leading minutes their starters are playing, they are running out of gas at the end of games against teams that disperse minutes. i dont care how young they are, an extra ten minutes of game play opposite your opponent in the closing minutes of close games and jumpers aren't going to fall, those defensive rebounds will be lost as the clock continues to run.

If I were in charge I'd make Lavine the ball handler and trade out Wiggins and Rubio with the sole intentions of building a complimentary core around the strengths of Towns and Lavine. theyll be fine either way.

Leftcoast_yg
12-25-2016, 03:36 PM
Same thing that is going on in Laker land, being refined in the fire.

mngopher35
12-25-2016, 04:07 PM
I think a lot of reasons have been said so far in this thread. Having our core 3 at age 21 is a big factor and then we also have dieng/Rubio in mid late 20's so we are young when it comes to our main contributors especially. Add in a new coach/system to young players as well.

Outside of that our defense has had major holes which is getting better to an extent. This is a new defense and we were so poor with helping defensively that it created a mix of some good possessions and super easy layups or open 3s. I think as the young group grows and continues to limit those mistakes on rotations we should improve.

Offensively we stopped playing through Rubio and put the creating more on the young trio. We have improved our 3 ball and shoot/look for it more which helps for efficiency but Rubio is so much better at running an offense so it negates any overall improvement (and my guess is when it gets tight and we do the wiggins ISO over and over it hurts us late too).

With all of this said though we have had some horrible 3rd quarter lapses and blown leads in the 2nd half to the point it seemed like it was in their head (at one point we had net positives every quarter but the 3rd where we got destroyed). Once this team matures and gets to know the system better I think that will stop happening. I think our point differential is similar to teams like Portland/Knicks more than others around our record so while I misjudged this season we have shown some ability at least we still just need a little improvement/growth to turn it into wins instead of just coming close.

zn23
12-25-2016, 04:16 PM
They have a young core of players but they're not compatible with each other.|

I've said it before Andrew Wiggins is holding back the team and also holding KAT back. He's the next Rudy Gay. He's an inefficient scorer who doesn't make anyone better. It's just not going to get much better. This is his 3rd year and he is who he is. He's playing the same way he's played the last 2 years. Until they get rid of him and get more role players around Karl Anthony Towns, or until Wiggins gets significantly better, this is where they're going to be. Then you have Zach Levine who is basically a mini version of Wiggins.

JasonJohnHorn
12-25-2016, 11:39 PM
I haven't seen any games from them this year, but I was looking forward to seeing what they could do.

Stats and the guys on here seem to suggest it if a defensive issue, and that sounds legit. I'm surprised at that, because that was the one area I expected Thibs would have them improving in.

The issue I would guess, as other folks are suggesting here, is the lack of vets. I can't recall a team of young 20's players competing at a high level. Best scenario I can recall is the Shaq-Magic team: Penny Shaq, with Scott and Anderson (who were both a few season in the league). They did have Grant, and though the core outside of him had on 2-4 years under their belt, they were all older than these guys.

MAgic had Kareem.
Duncan had DRob
Kobe had Shaq

It seems like when young guys win, they usually do it with a vet.

Perhaps a high lottery pick and Wiggins could equate into a package for a couple of All-Star vets.


Best guy for this team would be Chris Paul. Buy his window is closing I think.

shep33
12-26-2016, 01:58 AM
I think they need to switch things up with their rotations to make their bench stronger. A vet wing defender would do wonders for them

europagnpilgrim
12-26-2016, 03:22 AM
They are young and learning how to win which is baby steps at that and they have no bench from the games I have checked out, I haven't watch them a lot but it doesn't take 20 games to figure out simple stuff

its a reason why Thibs wants to trade for a all star caliber veteran on the right side of 30

Rubio still is the same player he was that they stashed away for years when they drafted him, average shooter who can pass but puts no fear into others

Wiggins will tease you with a nice streak then revert back to why Lebron wanted him traded for Love and his veteran/proven game

Towns will probably be like Garnett until he goes elsewhere and wins, but I feel like Thibs will pull a off season move since his is a maniac on the sidelines and wants to win now especially coming off the decent success he had with the Bulls

GoferKing_
12-26-2016, 06:38 AM
Wrong coach.

Heediot
12-26-2016, 08:44 AM
One of Wiggins or Lavine needs to be packaged for a high level SF.

Wiggins, Dunn, Draft Pick and Filler for Paul George?

Chronz
12-26-2016, 03:33 PM
One of Wiggins or Lavine needs to be packaged for a high level SF.

Wiggins, Dunn, Draft Pick and Filler for Paul George?
Was thinking something similar. Tho isn't it more helpful for Wiggins to grow into a SF?

hugepatsfan
12-26-2016, 03:57 PM
Lots of reasons as had been stated. Youth across the board. And with that comes some guys that are still translating their talent into basketball production. I think you have, overall, a mix of players that don't necessarily mesh together great. I also think a big thing is that instead of just playing to guys strengths, they seem to be trying to develop the weakness of guys. In a sense it's more development than just trying to get the most wins possible. Though I think that might be less a product of the direction they're trying to push (i.e. what PHI/LAL are doing) and just the result of going for the biggest name coach. What I mean is I don't know that it was their intention to develop those weak spots of guys. I think they wanted to win but hired a coach that doesn't coach to the strengths of the players they currently have.

Heediot
12-26-2016, 06:02 PM
Was thinking something similar. Tho isn't it more helpful for Wiggins to grow into a SF?

He's a poor rebounder for a SF and might not even be average for a 2 guard. I think he can play both spots and has the potential to defend both spots. Either position is fine, but he would probably perform better as a 2 guard, just my view. In a league with more small ball lineups and interchangeable positions, it's not a big deal either way. He lacks iq and instincts, not too sure how much of those attributes he can develop. He would easily be a stud if he had a better feel for the game, he's trying to dominate off of god given athleticism.

Scoots
12-26-2016, 09:10 PM
3. Wiggins is a one dimensional offensive player who will be most valuable in a few years when he learns to be a lock own wing

If I were in charge I'd make Lavine the ball handler

I don't see anything in Wiggins that tells me he has the temperament to be a good defender, let alone a lock down one. He can certainly get a lot better, but great defensive players were usually great before they make it to the NBA.

Levine is a 2 ... he can handle some, but he doesn't get the team into the offense and he's not that kind of leader/ball handler. They need a PG next to Lavine ... and I think they are still hopeful Dunn can be that guy.

Thibs is a good defensive coach, and I believe he will get the team playing better D ... I never did really think he would turn them around in one pre-season the way some people were talking, but they are too talented and Thibs is too good a coach for them to still be this bad 30 games from now.

flea
12-26-2016, 09:12 PM
They're not winning because they're not good enough. Being able to say you'll probably be good in 3-5 years doesn't mean you're winning games now - otherwise the Sixers wouldn't be among the worst teams in the league still. You don't just win games because your big man can shoot or your wings are athletic - plenty of teams win a lot of games in the NBA with nobody in their 8 man under 30. It's a tough league, but it's no tougher than the NFL or MLB.

Scoots
12-26-2016, 09:39 PM
They're not winning because they're not good enough. Being able to say you'll probably be good in 3-5 years doesn't mean you're winning games now - otherwise the Sixers wouldn't be among the worst teams in the league still. You don't just win games because your big man can shoot or your wings are athletic - plenty of teams win a lot of games in the NBA with nobody in their 8 man under 30. It's a tough league, but it's no tougher than the NFL or MLB.

They lose because they get fewer points than the other team. :)

flea
12-26-2016, 10:00 PM
They lose because they get fewer points than the other team. :)

I think the no-brainers are obvious. They're the 3rd worst defensive team in the league and the two worse than them don't even make a serious effort on that end (Blazers) and the other has 5 of their top 9 24 or under (most of them AAU heroballers including their vets). They also don't have any scorers that can steal games at this point in their career so they can't win close ones very easily.

It's a similar story to the team I follow (Pelicans) but at least the Pels are getting healthy with veterans. No help is on the way for the Wolves, though it wouldn't surprise me if they were the type of team that goes 14-6 or something over the last quarter of a season because of their legs and talent.

KingstonHawke
12-26-2016, 10:33 PM
9-20, with great young talent and a great coach

What's missing?

Nope. The coach is a horrible fit for that team (doesn't like to run), and the GM sucks too. They should've traded Rubio a long time ago and spent money adding a big man who could compliment KAT in the post. Last year when Love was being rumored they should've been targeting him.

Vee-Rex
12-26-2016, 11:05 PM
The Wolves aren't playing the way that they should. How so, you ask?

Despite having youth and athleticism the Wolves rank 22nd in the league in pace. Why???? Why play to your weakness instead of your own strength? They should be top 8 in pace.

Thibs is a gritty, defensive-minded, grind-it-out coach, working with a young, athletic, low BBIQ team with defensive issues at almost every position. Instead of playing fast and to their own strengths (like the Lakers/Rockets) to sort of hide their flaws, they play slow which allows experienced teams/players to exploit their weaknesses. Until the players learn all the little nuances on defense they should be pushing the tempo all the time.

Scoots
12-26-2016, 11:13 PM
I think the no-brainers are obvious. They're the 3rd worst defensive team in the league and the two worse than them don't even make a serious effort on that end (Blazers) and the other has 5 of their top 9 24 or under (most of them AAU heroballers including their vets). They also don't have any scorers that can steal games at this point in their career so they can't win close ones very easily.

It's a similar story to the team I follow (Pelicans) but at least the Pels are getting healthy with veterans. No help is on the way for the Wolves, though it wouldn't surprise me if they were the type of team that goes 14-6 or something over the last quarter of a season because of their legs and talent.

My no-brainer was in response to your "They're not winning because they're not good enough." :)

Vee-Rex
12-26-2016, 11:16 PM
Nope. The coach is a horrible fit for that team (doesn't like to run), and the GM sucks too. They should've traded Rubio a long time ago and spent money adding a big man who could compliment KAT in the post. Last year when Love was being rumored they should've been targeting him.

Rubio is terrible, man. He's an incredible passer that can't rack up assists because defenses know the best way to defend a guy who is zero threat to score himself.

He's a good defender that was overrated last year because he racked up some steals and had a good DBPM (which can be misleading).

Dude should've been traded awhile ago.

AIRMAR72
12-27-2016, 01:38 AM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;31366745]9-20, with great young talent and a great coach

What's missing?[/QUOTEand.....POOR coaching and too many talented player's who only care about self driven highlights

warfelg
12-27-2016, 09:19 AM
The Wolves aren't playing the way that they should. How so, you ask?

Despite having youth and athleticism the Wolves rank 22nd in the league in pace. Why???? Why play to your weakness instead of your own strength? They should be top 8 in pace.

Thibs is a gritty, defensive-minded, grind-it-out coach, working with a young, athletic, low BBIQ team with defensive issues at almost every position. Instead of playing fast and to their own strengths (like the Lakers/Rockets) to sort of hide their flaws, they play slow which allows experienced teams/players to exploit their weaknesses. Until the players learn all the little nuances on defense they should be pushing the tempo all the time.

I've been saying all along that it was a terrible hire.

I've looked into it. Almost all the advance metric are the exact same as Thibs time with the Bulls, except the pace is up so DRtg per 36 is up.

What's even stranger: Look into offensive distribution. Wiggins, LaVine, KAT are taking more than half the Wolves shots. When with the Bulls; Rose, Butler, Noah were taking more than half the Bulls shots.

The Wolves should have gone after Mike D'Antoni. Rubio, Wiggins, LaVine, KAT, Dunn....that's a core build to run and play fast and play in space. Instead Thibs elementary offense has those guys taking the ball, iso-ing, and dribbling until 3 seconds are on the clock and jacking up a shot.

R. Johnson#3
12-27-2016, 09:42 AM
They aren't winning because they're all kids. They still have a ton to learn and the only way it's going to come is through playing a **** load of games. None of them know exactly what it takes to win in the NBA yet. They're loaded with talent but it's going to take some time.

PowerHouse
12-27-2016, 11:20 AM
For being a #1 overall pick Wiggins is a bust IMO. This is supposed to be a breakout year and this guy is still putting up an unimpressive 15.4 PER with VORP/BPM that is still in the negatives. His rookie year I give that kind of play a pass but his third year? C'mon. His highest potential may be to become Kevin Martin 2.0 but I have doubts he even gets that good.

Wolves had to give up K-Love to get him which, as it turns out, set the franchise back some.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2016, 11:30 AM
Simply put, they are too young, not experienced enough to learn Thib's defense, and have 3 guys trying to carve out their niche in the league at the same time, which means long period's of selfish basketball.

Rubio isn't a fit, Thib's just takes the ball out of his hands and puts him in the corner. The bench is horrific.

They will be good. They need to gain experience, and make some roster changes to the supporting cast. But the 3 young guys will be fine.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2016, 11:57 AM
For being a #1 overall pick Wiggins is a bust IMO. This is supposed to be a breakout year and this guy is still putting up an unimpressive 15.4 PER with VORP/BPM that is still in the negatives. His rookie year I give that kind of play a pass but his third year? C'mon. His highest potential may be to become Kevin Martin 2.0 but I have doubts he even gets that good.

Wolves had to give up K-Love to get him which, as it turns out, set the franchise back some.

while yes, it did yield us Towns, and Wiggins. Long term, That is better.

PowerHouse
12-27-2016, 12:12 PM
while yes, it did yield us Towns, and Wiggins. Long term, That is better.

The Love trade got you Wiggins/Bennett/Young.

You got Towns from a fortunate ping pong bounce and possibly some tanking. Maybe there wouldve been fewer ping pong balls had you guys still had Love instead but there's no way to know that.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2016, 12:25 PM
The Love trade got you Wiggins/Bennett/Young.

You got Towns from a fortunate ping pong bounce and possibly some tanking. Maybe there wouldve been fewer ping pong balls had you guys still had Love instead but there's no way to know that.

I mean, with Love, we don't lose enough to secure a #1 pick.

Fortunate? Good ahead and look up the Wolves lottery history....

Chronz
12-27-2016, 01:26 PM
Rubio should come off the bench if they are going to under utilize his talents to this degree. Thibs should look at the relative success going on at his old coaching gig. When Rondo joined the Bulls, it forced Wade and Butler to play off him, its imperfect but at least utilizes his only real asset and Wade/Butler are crafty enough to score regardless. Though its clear Wade should handle more of the PG duties IMO.


I just looked it up, this is the least time with the ball Rubio has had since the NBA started tracking time of possession/touches. This is the most catch and shoot shots of his career so those touches numbers look even less enticing as he was allowed to pound the ball more in years past.

Perhaps his injury history and overall fit has changed managements priorities with regards to how much they should rely on him cuz it appears Thibs wants to run more sets at the elbows with their young-3 more than he wants to run spread PnR with Rubio at the helm. They should just start Dunn if this is going to be the role, statistically that same unit has thrived more offensively with Dunn in his place but I guess he knows how the defense would suffer (perhaps drastically) without Rubio.

Its really up to the kids to develop their passing games if they are going to minimize Rubio to this degree cuz while the defense does look bad, its only relevant in that we all expected Thibs to turn **** defenders into positive ones but the offense has looked even worse if we're focusing on their starting 5.
Last year with a dunce of a coach and a 90's approach to basketball, the Rubio-Lavine-Wiggins-Towns-Dieng lineup scored 114.5 PtsPer100P, thats down to 107.8 this year with Rubio directing less of the offense (The Dunn lineup is at 115.2 but its an early/small sample).

Wiggins looks to be the guy who does most of the ball stopping tho. I get that hes talented and young but at what point does that run dry? I've been more impressed with Lavines progress than his, both are **** defensively but Wiggins has the talent to be more than that. Wiggins is the only highly graded prospect I can remember that provides zilch outside of scoring. Tmac, PG, Melo, Bron, Kobe etc... they weren't all elite offensively but they could hang in ways outside their own scoring abilities. I used to think Wiggins might be the next Rudy Gay but Gay had the build to rebound and play like a SF in some capacity. A rich mans Gerald Green might be Wiggins future at this rate.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2016, 01:30 PM
Rubio should come off the bench if they are going to under utilize his talents to this degree. Thibs should look at the relative success going on at his old coaching gig. When Rondo joined the Bulls, it forced Wade and Butler to play off him, its imperfect but at least utilizes his only real asset and Wade/Butler are crafty enough to score regardless. Though its clear Wade should handle more of the PG duties IMO.


I just looked it up, this is the least time with the ball Rubio has had since the NBA started tracking time of possession/touches. This is the most catch and shoot shots of his career so those touches numbers look even less enticing as he was allowed to pound the ball more in years past. Perhaps his injury history and overall fit has changed managements priorities with regards to how much they should rely on him cuz it appears Thibs wants to run more sets at the elbows with their young-3 more than he wants to run spread PnR with Rubio at the helm. They should just start Dunn if this is going to be the role, statistically that same unit has thrived more offensively with Dunn in his place but I guess he knows how the defense would suffer (perhaps drastically) without Rubio.

Its really up to the kids to develop their passing games if they are going to minimize Rubio to this degree cuz while the defense does look bad, its only relevant in that we all expected Thibs to turn **** defenders into positive ones but the offense has looked even worse if we're focusing on their starting 5.
Last year with a dunce of a coach and a 90's approach to basketball, the Rubio-Lavine-Wiggins-Towns-Dieng lineup scored 114.5 PtsPer100P, thats down to 107.8 this year with Rubio directing less of the offense (The Dunn lineup is at 115.2 but its an early/small sample).

while it's shocking to admit, Thib's might very well be sacrificing wins now, to force Wiggins/Lavine/Towns to become more all around players, ie, distributors.

And yes, Rubio basically hands it off, then goes to the corner. While his last 20 attempts or so have been connecting at a decent rate, the fact is, if Rubio is going to act as a floor spacer, he is a waste of a roster spot.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-27-2016, 02:17 PM
They'll be good soon. I think many should have expected them to be a lottery team for around 1 to 2 more years.

YAALREADYKNO
12-27-2016, 03:25 PM
Experience

Jamiecballer
12-27-2016, 03:30 PM
9-20, with great young talent and a great coach

What's missing?
You don't change losing habits overnight.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

knicksballers
12-27-2016, 03:48 PM
4 team trade..... Let's make it happen

Orlando trades: Herzonja
Orlando gets: Lance Thomas and our second round pick via the rockets

Timberwolves trade: Ricky Rubio and Tyus Jones
Timberwolves get: Noah, n'dour and a second round pick 2019 from knicks via cavs

Knicks trade: Noah, n'dour, Lance Thomas, 2 second round picks and our 2017 first round pick
Knicks get: Tyus Jones and Jahlil oakfor

Sixers get: Rubio, Herzonja and knicks 2017 first round pick
Sixers trade: okafor

TheDish87
12-27-2016, 03:57 PM
Magic have enough bigs as it is why would they do that? i dont want Rubio on the Sixers either, doesnt seem to fit with Simmons.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2016, 04:04 PM
Magic have enough bigs as it is why would they do that? i dont want Rubio on the Sixers either, doesnt seem to fit with Simmons.

I think you Sixer fans need to relax on Simmons, if they indeed throw him in at PG to begin with, not only is he a rookie, he is learning a new position, in the NBA. He will not be very good for a while.

Rubio is cheap, and could help you while you groom him.

But, the Wolves aren't taking on Noah's shittay deal, and losing 2 PG's in the process..

Vee-Rex
12-27-2016, 04:17 PM
To be honest it might have been silly of us to expect sweeping changes so soon.

I'd like to see Minny just improve a bit over the course of the season. If, by the end of the year they're winning around half of their games (not necessarily a .500 record, just winning half of their remaining games) then I think that would be quite promising.

TheDish87
12-27-2016, 04:21 PM
I think you Sixer fans need to relax on Simmons, if they indeed throw him in at PG to begin with, not only is he a rookie, he is learning a new position, in the NBA. He will not be very good for a while.

Rubio is cheap, and could help you while you groom him.

But, the Wolves aren't taking on Noah's shittay deal, and losing 2 PG's in the process..

doesnt matter what position he plays hes going to be the primary ball handler and we need shooters with him and thats not Rubio. Fully expect him to be 'good' pretty fast.

mngopher35
12-27-2016, 04:27 PM
To be honest it might have been silly of us to expect sweeping changes so soon.

I'd like to see Minny just improve a bit over the course of the season. If, by the end of the year they're winning around half of their games (not necessarily a .500 record, just winning half of their remaining games) then I think that would be quite promising.

It seems like we are slowly improving and getting used to the system and new defense. I expect we will have a nice little run late in the year but even without that we are 16th in srs compared to 24th last year (despite also ending on a run last year). It really comes down to us blowing 3rd quarters earlier in the year and putting extra responsibility on the young guys late in games. I think it is to try and prepare them as I think Hawk said, it is just frustrating to watch knowing how well Rubio ran things last year and that we leave wins on the table.

warfelg
12-27-2016, 04:55 PM
I think you Sixer fans need to relax on Simmons, if they indeed throw him in at PG to begin with, not only is he a rookie, he is learning a new position, in the NBA. He will not be very good for a while.

Rubio is cheap, and could help you while you groom him.

But, the Wolves aren't taking on Noah's shittay deal, and losing 2 PG's in the process..

I would honestly much rather have Rubio than Sergio past this year. Rubio is a slightly better shooter and a much better defender. If Simmons is indeed the main PG, being able to slide Simmons off ball and have Rubio in would be amazing. SL was great when TJ ran the show and Simmons's movement and passing really opened things up.

Storch
12-27-2016, 05:04 PM
They lack playoff experienced veterans

FlashBolt
12-27-2016, 05:13 PM
Remember when some here said Towns would be the best center? Like I said, some players hit their ceiling in terms of production at a very young age. Towns hasn't improved at all. Same game. Maybe a bit smarter with his decisions but every team knows about him and the scouting report. He'll be a great player but I would not be surprised if a few other young ones jump past him in terms of potential.

5ass
12-27-2016, 05:38 PM
I think you Sixer fans need to relax on Simmons, if they indeed throw him in at PG to begin with, not only is he a rookie, he is learning a new position, in the NBA. He will not be very good for a while.

Rubio is cheap, and could help you while you groom him.

But, the Wolves aren't taking on Noah's shittay deal, and losing 2 PG's in the process..

But why not just target a PG that fits with Simmons' game? Why get the worst the worst fit possible? Getting someone to compliment his game would also help accelerate his growth as a player.

But yes this trade is terrible for everyone, but the Knicks. They're trading a bad contract and some ****** second round picks for a player that was drafted third last year and is already pretty good offensively. The Sixes are getting a bad fit in Rubio. The Wolves are getting a bad contract, and the Magic are throwing Mario away for nothing.

mrblisterdundee
12-27-2016, 07:18 PM
I thought they'd be competing for 8th on talent alone, but their youth still need some seasoning.

Another top 5-7 pick in a strong draft and they'll be ready to climb next year.

At this point, Minnesota should try to get older. Use guys like Dieng, Rubio, Dunn and LaVine as trade bait, and get some veterans in there. I'd rather keep LaVine and develop him into a score-first point guard, but anyone not named Wiggins or Towns should be available.

5ass
12-27-2016, 09:38 PM
Among these guys, who is the best front court partner for KAT:

Marcus Morris
Taj Gibson
Ryan Anderson
Tyson Chanlder

warfelg
12-27-2016, 09:43 PM
Among these guys, who is the best front court partner for KAT:

Marcus Morris
Taj Gibson
Ryan Anderson
Tyson Chanlder

Tyson Chandler I guess. To be honest I don't think any of those 4 you listed are great options.

mngopher35
12-27-2016, 09:49 PM
At this point, Minnesota should try to get older. Use guys like Dieng, Rubio, Dunn and LaVine as trade bait, and get some veterans in there. I'd rather keep LaVine and develop him into a score-first point guard, but anyone not named Wiggins or Towns should be available.

I would rather trade Wiggins than Lavine at this point probably (lavine is as good/better and not considered as valuable around the league probably). We really shouldn't be overreacting at all like some suggest though, trading any of the 3 to get older players simply makes us better now when we won't be contending anyways. We gotta aim for about 3-5 years from now when the Warriors are getting older and our core is hitting their prime.

Rubio/Shabazz/Dunn/Tyes/Dieng can be traded to change up the fit but one of the core 3 for older players would hurt our future most likely which should be our goal to maximize (as opposed to worrying about wins right now).

5ass
12-27-2016, 09:51 PM
Tyson Chandler I guess. To be honest I don't think any of those 4 you listed are great options.

Then who? I'm trying to think of realistic options. Maybe guys they can target without giving up any of the core 3.

Giannis94
12-27-2016, 10:20 PM
Then who? I'm trying to think of realistic options. Maybe guys they can target without giving up any of the core 3.

I would rather just suck and make a deal in the off season?

Chronz
12-27-2016, 11:36 PM
Among these guys, who is the best front court partner for KAT:

Marcus Morris
Taj Gibson
Ryan Anderson
Tyson Chanlder

All are decent options but Taj is basically a shorter Dieng. Tyson is similarly redundant but would definitely be an upgrade so I would go with him. Anderson would give them a true blue spacer and allow Towns to play his natural position but does he have it in him defensively to anchor his teams night in/out? Morris is utterly average on both ends but hes got the best contract

mngopher35
12-28-2016, 12:19 AM
I am kinda torn on what we need next to Towns too but it does seem more and more like a defensive anchor type might be the best option. I had hoped Towns would be that anchor and stay at center but I am just not sure what way to go. The upside is that almost any option works but to me our biggest need with that trio will be on the defensive end so a game changer there fits best probably.

5ass
12-28-2016, 01:39 AM
All are decent options but Taj is basically a shorter Dieng. Tyson is similarly redundant but would definitely be an upgrade so I would go with him. Anderson would give them a true blue spacer and allow Towns to play his natural position but does he have it in him defensively to anchor his teams night in/out? Morris is utterly average on both ends but hes got the best contract
I feel like Taj is a better defender, worse floor spacer than Dieng. I don't really like Dieng. He's neither a very good defender or floor spacer at the PF position. Tyson is a full on defensive anchor that pushes Towns to PF. Anderson is a floor spacer, and KAT would need to learn how to play better defenses. He has no reason not to anchor the defense seeing as how he has plenty of help offensively.

I feel like trading Rubio for WCS and Collison could be a great trade for them and the Kings.

Crackadalic
12-28-2016, 01:59 AM
They are getting there. Unless the make a big run they will miss the playoffs and that's ok. Get one of those talented pg's in this years draft and they are set for years

IndyRealist
12-28-2016, 09:34 AM
One of Wiggins or Lavine needs to be packaged for a high level SF.

Wiggins, Dunn, Draft Pick and Filler for Paul George?

Bird wouldn't touch that. He considers PG untouchable with a team friendly contract after the cap hike. A deal would have to blow him away, or PG would have to say he wants out.

Last year I said I would move PG for Jimmy Butler and PSD lost it's mind.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2016, 10:23 AM
I am kinda torn on what we need next to Towns too but it does seem more and more like a defensive anchor type might be the best option. I had hoped Towns would be that anchor and stay at center but I am just not sure what way to go. The upside is that almost any option works but to me our biggest need with that trio will be on the defensive end so a game changer there fits best probably.

Milisap next to Towns works. Towns isn't a defensive anchor yet, but he needs to turn into one.

KnicksorBust
12-28-2016, 10:57 AM
Westbrook Durant had a full season together where they won like 23 games. I still think it is an age thing combined with a huge coaching switch. Maybe I am overrating Wiggins though. Seems people have really cooled on him.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2016, 11:00 AM
Westbrook Durant had a full season together where they won like 23 games. I still think it is an age thing combined with a huge coaching switch. Maybe I am overrating Wiggins though. Seems people have really cooled on him.

I have. He doesn't do anything except score in volumes. Can't rebound, minimal passing ability, his defense has not even come close to what was envisioned when drafted, and he just takes way too many long 2's still.

At this point, Lavine is better for sure, and has more upside imo. Wiggins is still young, but he pisses me off half the time.

SeoulBeatz
12-28-2016, 11:00 AM
I am kinda torn on what we need next to Towns too but it does seem more and more like a defensive anchor type might be the best option. I had hoped Towns would be that anchor and stay at center but I am just not sure what way to go. The upside is that almost any option works but to me our biggest need with that trio will be on the defensive end so a game changer there fits best probably.

Yeah I kind of assumed that he would be a great interior defender.

It's crazy, because he's ranked #1 among centers in ORPM (as expected), but he's dead last at #69 in DPRM. Jahlil Okafor is #68 lol. Is his defense that bad? It is quite baffling, I assume he's such a focal point on offense that maybe his defensive effort suffers from it.

Either way, I expected the Wolves to be better but maybe they just don't have the right fit with their big three.

I could see Nerlens fitting next to KAT since Towns is more of a classic PF and likes to operate in the midrange, but I doubt they would offer anything more than Tyus Jones for him at this point.

hugepatsfan
12-28-2016, 01:31 PM
I have. He doesn't do anything except score in volumes. Can't rebound, minimal passing ability, his defense has not even come close to what was envisioned when drafted, and he just takes way too many long 2's still.

At this point, Lavine is better for sure, and has more upside imo. Wiggins is still young, but he pisses me off half the time.

You know Thibs would love him some gritty, grimy Marcus Smart over Wiggins' raw game :laugh2:

mngopher35
12-28-2016, 03:22 PM
Yeah I kind of assumed that he would be a great interior defender.

It's crazy, because he's ranked #1 among centers in ORPM (as expected), but he's dead last at #69 in DPRM. Jahlil Okafor is #68 lol. Is his defense that bad? It is quite baffling, I assume he's such a focal point on offense that maybe his defensive effort suffers from it.

No I don't think it is. Dieng is listed as like the 3rd best pf and he isn't much better than Towns so something might be weird there. I do think if he spent more time focused on defense and working on better rotations he has elite potential and he does flash. Overall he isn't having a major impact on that end yet though which I agree is a little disappointing.


Either way, I expected the Wolves to be better but maybe they just don't have the right fit with their big three.

I could see Nerlens fitting next to KAT since Towns is more of a classic PF and likes to operate in the midrange, but I doubt they would offer anything more than Tyus Jones for him at this point.

I think it is too early to tell with our big 3, the biggest issue is youth and adjusting to thibs imo. Rubio should probably be traded at this point due to his fit tbh because he is no longer creating for everyone most of the time (thibs has put that on the young guys more now). Defensively we are starting to get it with rotations and once we stop giving up 10 or so easy buckets on missed rotations that should really help. We started out by making like 2 rotations per possession but something falling apart the more we had to do, now we seem to be getting comfortable with the switching/trapping/roatating down etc.

A defensive big like Noel or I saw WCS is what a lot of fans seem to want to go after but at a cheap cost if possible of course. So like you mention Tyus/Shabazz and a 2nd or something would be what we want to shop. Rubio probably being someone we give up for the right deal though too (Sacramento seems like a fit for him). I really think our main 3 should be off the table (unless crazy good offer) and dunn is probably tough to get atm too since thibs probably likes his skill set but his value around the league won't be as high until he proves something.

mngopher35
12-28-2016, 03:24 PM
Milisap next to Towns works. Towns isn't a defensive anchor yet, but he needs to turn into one.

Ya I am not sure he is the right age for us to invest in but he would be great type of guy to get with elite defense and range

Hawkeye15
12-28-2016, 03:41 PM
Ya I am not sure he is the right age for us to invest in but he would be great type of guy to get with elite defense and range

yep, age is the only concern.

tp13baby
12-29-2016, 12:48 AM
Ya I am not sure he is the right age for us to invest in but he would be great type of guy to get with elite defense and range

It's hard to find a stretch 4 that is good defensively.

But Towns has to develop into a better defensive center. I saw a tweet tonight but in December the team was a -5.3 Net rating on the court. While off the court they were 2.2. That's a -7.5 rating. Your best player shouldn't have a negative if you wanna be a good team.

Not even a fan of plus minus system but I think it speaks volume. Minny fans know they need to be better defensively but most other fans have no clue why they are losing. Wiggins and Towns need to be better defensively because they have the potential

flea
12-29-2016, 02:27 AM
I think Taj would be great for Towns in the immediate term. Functional offensive player who would give them an imposing frontcourt on the glass, and he likes to bang which most young bigs don't like doing.

Clint Olbrock
12-30-2016, 11:52 AM
Fun fact, they're 1 of 3 teams in the NBA with three 20+ PPG players on their team.. The other 2 teams being the Warriors and Cavs.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2016, 11:56 AM
Fun fact, they're 1 of 3 teams in the NBA with three 20+ PPG players on their team.. The other 2 teams being the Warriors and Cavs.

problem is, outside our 3, nobody puts forth anything resembling consistent production.

Chronz
12-30-2016, 12:12 PM
problem is, outside our 3, nobody puts forth anything resembling consistent production.
I would say the biggest problems are those 3 giving up more than they put in. And the possibility that the rest of the team suffers from their pursuit of that production. Hard to be consistent when you have limited touches/looks on top of playing with sub par passers.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2016, 12:17 PM
I would say the biggest problems are those 3 giving up more than they put in. And the possibility that the rest of the team suffers from their pursuit of that production. Hard to be consistent when you have limited touches/looks on top of playing with sub par passers.

absolutely. This year has become the year we start to identify what each of the 3 can do. Wiggins, is just not improving at all. Outside slightly better ball handling skills, he is the same player he was when he came in. Towns is forcing it. Lavine is actually the one who has improved the most, and I like his future.

But those 3 are basically hoarding the ball at all times. They are 21, so each of them is selfishly trying to carve out their role, and ascend into star status. Each of them have gotten by on pure talent, and never had to make sacrifices, or make fundamental changes to help their team, and teammates.

This year is a growth year, for sure. I, and many, jumped the gun on their win total. They are still young, play young, and lose a ton of games they have no business losing.

mrblisterdundee
12-30-2016, 02:21 PM
Milisap next to Towns works. Towns isn't a defensive anchor yet, but he needs to turn into one.

Ibaka would be a great fit next to Towns. He's only 27, shoots as well as Towns and is a better defender. But he's an unrestricted free agent this summer, and there's no way Minnesota can afford him and keep their big three together.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2016, 04:58 PM
Ibaka would be a great fit next to Towns. He's only 27, shoots as well as Towns and is a better defender. But he's an unrestricted free agent this summer, and there's no way Minnesota can afford him and keep their big three together.

well, they don't pay Towns for a few years, so plenty of time to figure it out. I would look at Ibaka this summer. Offer him what you want, if he rebuffs, so be it.

mrblisterdundee
12-30-2016, 06:32 PM
Lavine is actually the one who has improved the most, and I like his future.

I agree, although I'm disappointed in how his assists and rebounds have stagnated, even with increased playing time. On a per-36-minute basis, his rebounds and assists have both significantly decreased so have his turnovers.
I think LaVine is Minnesota's best option for a future point guard, with his superior shooting and unmatched athleticism. He needs more reps as the team's primary ball-handler. Minnesota should look to trade Rubio, and quite frankly, Dunn too while his value is still high. I'm seeing a bit of Elfrid Payton in him.

5ass
12-31-2016, 06:39 PM
I agree, although I'm disappointed in how his assists and rebounds have stagnated, even with increased playing time. On a per-36-minute basis, his rebounds and assists have both significantly decreased so have his turnovers.
I think LaVine is Minnesota's best option for a future point guard, with his superior shooting and unmatched athleticism. He needs more reps as the team's primary ball-handler. Minnesota should look to trade Rubio, and quite frankly, Dunn too while his value is still high. I'm seeing a bit of Elfrid Payton in him.

Dunn is still a young PG. Just because people had unrealistic expectations for him coming in, doesn't mean they should give up on him. Payton is actually as old as him and doing well this season for a young PG. I can't think of any PG 22 and under that's better than him. His career trajectory looks something like Dennis Schroder's so far. There's a reason why the Hawks kept Teague for so long. Its because young PGs usually aren't good. Its the hardest position to learn and theres so much depth at that position. The only reason why DJ is starting is because Bismack and Gordon are also starting. Gordon is still learning to play the SF position and developing his offensive skillset, Bismack is pretty bad offensively. Still, Payton is playing more MPG than DJ.

So let's say the Wolves trade Dunn... who do they bring in? Its going to have to be a vet PG like maybe 27 year old Bledsoe doesn't really fit their time frame for contending, and Bledsoe would be best case scenario IMO. The Suns might not want to give him up. I think they should just keep Dunn and develop him. I don't think they want to develop Lavine as a PG. They tried that last year. I dont think he's very effective at that position right now. Dunn has some good PG skills and he's worth developing IMO. Its way too early to give up on him. They should trade Rubio for a fringe starting PG who can shoot though. You don't want both your starting and back up PGs being bad shooters. If you can't get that PG, just trade Rubio for the best asset you can get, see what Dunn can do this year, and sign a Patty Mills type in the offseason.

tredigs
01-01-2017, 01:27 PM
^Dunn's not really that young. He's 2 years younger than Kyrie, who has been performing at his current level for about half a decade now (and was FAR better than Dunn's current level even as a college player). A 4 year college player should not take much time to adjust if he's the real deal. Dunn just doesn't seem to have an NBA game.

5ass
01-01-2017, 06:59 PM
^Dunn's not really that young. He's 2 years younger than Kyrie, who has been performing at his current level for about half a decade now (and was FAR better than Dunn's current level even as a college player). A 4 year college player should not take much time to adjust if he's the real deal. Dunn just doesn't seem to have an NBA game.

Well what Kyrie did was special. He was an all star at 20 years old, but each player develops at their own pace. Lowry took a while to develop. So did Conley, Teague, and many others. Dunn might or might not be as good as any of them, and I understand he should be more developed than most rookies, but you still have to give him at least year. Not 3-4 years like typical rookies.

Also I'm pretty sure the PG position is much much deeper than it was half a decade ago.

mrblisterdundee
01-01-2017, 08:35 PM
Dunn is still a young PG. Just because people had unrealistic expectations for him coming in, doesn't mean they should give up on him. Payton is actually as old as him and doing well this season for a young PG. I can't think of any PG 22 and under that's better than him. His career trajectory looks something like Dennis Schroder's so far. There's a reason why the Hawks kept Teague for so long. Its because young PGs usually aren't good. Its the hardest position to learn and theres so much depth at that position. The only reason why DJ is starting is because Bismack and Gordon are also starting. Gordon is still learning to play the SF position and developing his offensive skillset, Bismack is pretty bad offensively. Still, Payton is playing more MPG than DJ.

So let's say the Wolves trade Dunn... who do they bring in? Its going to have to be a vet PG like maybe 27 year old Bledsoe doesn't really fit their time frame for contending, and Bledsoe would be best case scenario IMO. The Suns might not want to give him up. I think they should just keep Dunn and develop him. I don't think they want to develop Lavine as a PG. They tried that last year. I dont think he's very effective at that position right now. Dunn has some good PG skills and he's worth developing IMO. Its way too early to give up on him. They should trade Rubio for a fringe starting PG who can shoot though. You don't want both your starting and back up PGs being bad shooters. If you can't get that PG, just trade Rubio for the best asset you can get, see what Dunn can do this year, and sign a Patty Mills type in the offseason.

How about Rubio, Dunn and Gorgui Dieng for John Wall and Markieff Morris? Wall might not be a great shooter, but he's an improvement there and everywhere else over your current point guards. He's only 26, and you get him locked in for 2 1/2 seasons on a cheap contract. Morris is only a year older, and can spread the floor better than Dieng. Of course, that all depends on Washington's management sharing your assessment of Dunn.

5ass
01-02-2017, 01:35 AM
How about Rubio, Dunn and Gorgui Dieng for John Wall and Markieff Morris? Wall might not be a great shooter, but he's an improvement there and everywhere else over your current point guards. He's only 26, and you get him locked in for 2 1/2 seasons on a cheap contract. Morris is only a year older, and can spread the floor better than Dieng. Of course, that all depends on Washington's management sharing your assessment of Dunn.

I dont think the Wizards are looking to trade Wall, but if they did, I think they'd get more than that.