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MG956
12-23-2016, 04:19 PM
I don't know which was worse but I'm guessing it was losing Theo that led up to us getting Dombrowski. Dombrowski is the single worst thing I have ever seen happen to this team but whoever was responsible for losing Theo is responsible for Dombrowski being here.

Theo had his share of dud deals but he had a sense of how to build & maintain a winning team. The guy knows his team and values his assets, and he has faith in doing the right thing for the right reason. I think his worst deals were when he flexed his Red Sox money around, but he never raped our farm.

What we have had since Theo left was a bunch of suits that couldn't shoot straight, so they hired an expert, Dave Dombrowski. Sigh...

Dombrowski excels at one thing, when we finished first place he was all over the media taking credit for that. I didn't see him after we got blown out of the play offs though. I understand what his motivation is now. What is his contract, 2-3 years? He wants a big win under his belt before he moves on, no matter what it costs.

Dombrowski said all the right things to get hired but we were worried he'd revert to form and rape the farm. Well we were wrong, he raped the farm and blew our budget.

Where am I wrong?

MG956
12-23-2016, 04:24 PM
Oh my, Dombrowski is under contract for 5 years? Does anyone know how long his contract is and what we are paying him?

RedSoxtober
12-28-2016, 03:03 PM
This space intentionally left blank. (It would probably be redundant for me to say that I agree.)

bagwell368
12-28-2016, 09:14 PM
There is only one Darth Vadar in the Boston hierarchy since the current ownership bought the team.

Mr. Larry Luchhino. Former Orioles bag man, former back stabber of Terry Francona. Idiot savant that dictated we shouldn't sign the aging Lester, so we end up with Mr. April and gain a playoff choke of epic proportions and lose Lester, one of the finer post season pitchers in MLB history.

I have drilled this pile of dung over the years, over and over, while a few of his protectors insist he was a great baseball man, and Theo was just a lucky kid that was bucking to get too big for his britches. Remember the WS flag flying (or about to) over Wrigley due to Theo before anyone dare come here and defend this vile rodent pellet eating scum.

Long live Theo.

Red Sox HOF for maggot Luchhino? Sure, he was great handling politicians and expanding/dreaming Fenway and that sort of thing. But an abject failure in terms of moves, power plays, trades on the baseball side of the business.

Face it, I've had this 'person' pegged right all along.

BoSox47
12-29-2016, 10:00 AM
I don't know which was worse but I'm guessing it was losing Theo that led up to us getting Dombrowski. Dombrowski is the single worst thing I have ever seen happen to this team but whoever was responsible for losing Theo is responsible for Dombrowski being here.

Theo had his share of dud deals but he had a sense of how to build & maintain a winning team. The guy knows his team and values his assets, and he has faith in doing the right thing for the right reason. I think his worst deals were when he flexed his Red Sox money around, but he never raped our farm.

What we have had since Theo left was a bunch of suits that couldn't shoot straight, so they hired an expert, Dave Dombrowski. Sigh...

Dombrowski excels at one thing, when we finished first place he was all over the media taking credit for that. I didn't see him after we got blown out of the play offs though. I understand what his motivation is now. What is his contract, 2-3 years? He wants a big win under his belt before he moves on, no matter what it costs.

Dombrowski said all the right things to get hired but we were worried he'd revert to form and rape the farm. Well we were wrong, he raped the farm and blew our budget.

Where am I wrong?

Dombrowski just put us as a top 3 contender for the next 2-3 seasons. If we come out as a champion i say its a success. We still have plenty of young players already at the mlb level and our three top prospects fill any possible holes we need in the future. Devers 3B, Travis 1B and Groome SP. Red Sox are locked at nearly every position for the future except 2B (Pedey still has 2-3 years) and closer (Kimbrel can be extended).

Red Sox might not have much of a farm right now but they have 3-4 years right now where they dont need farm players to come in and take positions. So for the net 3-4 years we will restock the farm.
Also this is mostly Cheringtons team if I am correct, not Theo's.

RedSoxtober
12-29-2016, 11:56 AM
Dombrowski just put us as a top 3 contender for the next 2-3 seasons. If we come out as a champion i say its a success. We still have plenty of young players already at the mlb level and our three top prospects fill any possible holes we need in the future. Devers 3B, Travis 1B and Groome SP. Red Sox are locked at nearly every position for the future except 2B (Pedey still has 2-3 years) and closer (Kimbrel can be extended).
What if we are a close-but-not-quite team and then fall on hard times with big contracts and a barren farm system like his last stop?


Red Sox might not have much of a farm right now but they have 3-4 years right now where they dont need farm players to come in and take positions. So for the net 3-4 years we will restock the farm.
People keep suggesting this kind of thing. Can you point to somewhere in DD's history that suggest he is likely to let the farm develop for 3-4 years? His "Dealer Dave" moniker suggests otherwise. Whether it's his love of the deal or his constant perception that he can upgrade "just one more piece" to build a winner, he seems to always have a new deal to make and he believes to his core that "you have to give something to get something." While the latter belief is true, it can be invoked to the point of bankruptcy. I do not see anything in his dossier that even hints at the likelihood that he will let the farm rebuild for more than a year... if that.


Also this is mostly Cheringtons team if I am correct, not Theo's.
Here's a list of the guys most likely to make an impact this season (including depth players) along with the initials of the GM who brought them into the organization.

C Leon (BC), Vazquez (TE), Swihart (TE)
1B Moreland (DD), Travis (BC)
2B Pedroia (TE)
SS Bogaerts (TE)
3B Sandoval (BC)
OF Benintendi (BC)
OF Betts (TE)
OF Bradley (TE)
OF Young (DD)
DH HanRam (BC)
UTL Hernandez (BC), Rutledge (DD), Holt (BC), Dominguez (DD)

SP Sale (DD)
SP Porcello (BC)
SP Price (DD)
SP Rodriguez (BC)
SP Pomeranz (DD)
SP Wright (BC)
SP Owens (TE)
SP Elias (DD)
RP Kimbrel (DD)
RP Smith (DD)
RP Thornburg (DD)
RP Barnes (TE)
RP Kelly (BC)
RP Hembree (BC)
RP Ross (BC)
RP Ramirez (TE)

TE: 9, BC: 13, DD: 11

A few things stick out to me from that list. First, it's pretty balanced among the three most recent GMs. I would not necessarily credit any one of them with it being "their team." Second, Theo's impact on the roster is pretty remarkable considering that he's been gone for five years. With Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, and Pedroia all providing key contributions and leadership perhaps there is something to that draft-and-development concept. Third, Dombrowski's primary impact is on the pitching -- particularly the high leverage guys. It's pretty remarkable that he could have that dramatic an impact on the MLB pitching roster in such a short period of time. Let's hope that his luck is much more like what he had with SP in DET than RP.

All that, however, seems a bit off target from the comment about Theo (assuming you were responding to Bags). I believe the original comment was pointing much more to the incredible decade-long run of success the Sox had under Theo than the present construction of the roster. I certainly do not remember a better period in my lifetime (probably longer than most save Bags) and I would have to check but doubt that it was exceeded by anything but the earliest days of MLB. That Theo did the same thing in Chicago in less than five years confirms it: he is the best GM of the modern era.

bagwell368
12-29-2016, 11:03 PM
The Sox had one good GM since the mid 60's outside of TE (who is easily the #1) - Dick O'Connell

They also had Lou Gorman who had some fine moments, and Duqe who had a few also.

I never mentioned it here before but Duqe was connected to the Nashua Pride, whom one of my son's played for. I met him 3 times. He was the most uncomfortable and odd fellow you could imagine. Yaz was the other Sox person I got to spend a few hours with - a very quiet and private man, but not as uncomfortable in his skin as Duqe.

Before O'Connell it was a parade of drunks and racists running the organization.

I fret over DD for one good reason. He only knows how to do it one way. The analog to him as a Manager would be a Dick Williams type. Get in, shake things up, get the team to compete, and then get axed and move on. But in this case this is DD's last stop. I promise you over the next 5 years the team will not be as fecund at new player signing and drafting as TE's last 5. If the delta isn't too large then we might be OK. But if he turns out to be like Duqe during the drafts then we'll be a 2nd division club in 4 years with a big payroll and a crappy farm system. Oh goody.

Maybe the owners want to sell? So they want to pump up the team now, to hell with later. That's not the philosophy that they came in with.

Maybe we can pry Beane out of Oakland after the '19 season with stupid money, and he can enlist some sharp aides that can be the next TE's.

redsox12
12-30-2016, 02:23 PM
Man I really need to get my preorder for Yoan Moncada's HOF induction, because he's oblivious a future HOF'er. Kopach is gonna win four Cy Youngs in a row..........


Dombrowski has done what a good GM should do, he sold off a few prospects and made us a legit contender and improved our biggest weakness, our rotation. He kept a young team intact and kept the most viable prospects unblocked.

j-bay
12-30-2016, 05:10 PM
Man I really need to get my preorder for Yoan Moncada's HOF induction, because he's oblivious a future HOF'er. Kopach is gonna win four Cy Youngs in a row..........


Dombrowski has done what a good GM should do, he sold off a few prospects and made us a legit contender and improved our biggest weakness, our rotation. He kept a young team intact and kept the most viable prospects unblocked.

Oh jeez here we go again...

RedSoxtober
12-30-2016, 05:46 PM
Dombrowski has done what a good GM should do, he sold off a few prospects and made us a legit contender and improved our biggest weakness, our rotation. He kept a young team intact and kept the most viable prospects unblocked.

I should have left 'oblivious' in there. It seems so... appropriate.

I guess Theo did it wrong then, you know, keeping the prospects that he should have traded. And yet somehow he's now won three WS with that formula. How exactly is that?

DD traded plenty of viable prospects who were unblocked. At least two of them made their MLB debuts this year.

redsox12
12-30-2016, 09:07 PM
I should have left 'oblivious' in there. It seems so... appropriate.

I guess Theo did it wrong then, you know, keeping the prospects that he should have traded. And yet somehow he's now won three WS with that formula. How exactly is that?

DD traded plenty of viable prospects who were unblocked. At least two of them made their MLB debuts this year.



Typo bashing is the lowest form of comeback on a message board

Theo also knew when to address weaknesses when he saw a opportunity to win and made the Curt Schilling trade. We are in a even better slate then in 04 because we are alot younger then the outfield. I'm guessing the DD haters would have also hated that trade too, not the metion all the hate that came from the Beckett trade because, Aníbal Sánchez, Jesús Delgado and Harvey García was supposed to be so good.

I remember when people here said they wouldn't trade Rubby De La Rosa for Hamels, now he's flamed out.

Margot was blocked by our killer B's, where would he be played?

I'm not sure which other prospect your talking about but Espinoza finished 2016 posting a 6-11 record with a 4.49 ERA in high A, not a great start.

Not to mention if Panda disappoints like everyone seems to think he will, we still have Devers, who's batting well in Salem so far, by the way a prospect in a position of need DD did not trade away.

E-Rod, Benintendi, Bradley Jr, Betts, Holt, Swihart, Vazquez, Devers, Groome, all still here, but DD trades all the young guys away.

Not to mention Carson Smith and even Brandon Workman as TJ comeback candidates.

bagwell368
01-01-2017, 11:16 PM
Sorry but regulars on the ML roster cannot be compared to kids in the minors. Trying to interchange them for comparisons is unreasonable.

The fact is some of the 'kids' we have are going to command massive deals when they are able, so a lot of them are going to be gone since we'll still be paying sick money for guys like Price.

People are concerned that in at least two if not three of DD's deals he's given up too much. If these people complained about ALL the deals (as some here do) then they are not objective or reasonable commentators. However some very level headed people in the media and sites like this one have become restive by the deals that have been done by DD.

Obviously we'll have to see. I'm usually one to say most here way overrate the specs. For almost 10 years I've, scoffed at the alarmists. Well, I'm not alarmed, but, I think he's overpaid for what he's gotten on balance. I'll keep watching closely, but if I had to vote, I'd vote against several of his deals.

RedSoxtober
01-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Theo also knew when to address weaknesses when he saw a opportunity to win and made the Curt Schilling trade. We are in a even better slate then in 04 because we are alot younger then the outfield. I'm guessing the DD haters would have also hated that trade too, not the metion all the hate that came from the Beckett trade because, Aníbal Sánchez, Jesús Delgado and Harvey García was supposed to be so good.
I was actually a big supporter of the Beckett deal. HanRam had a lot of immaturity issues and I was not upset about dealing him given the red flags... which proved to be stumbling blocks to his career, quite honestly.

Same for the Schilling deal. Not a single one of the prospects dealt for Schilling was particularly highly regarded within the industry so there was never a sense that we'd dealt too much


I remember when people here said they wouldn't trade Rubby De La Rosa for Hamels, now he's flamed out.I might not have been on that deal but only because I never liked Hamels.


Margot was blocked by our killer B's, where would he be played?
At the time of the deal, our killer B's were Bradley and Betts. They're good but I don't see how the two of them would have covered the entire outfield. The Sox also struggled to get LF covered at times this past season. Young stepped up but was injured. The hole led to Swihart's injury. He could have debuted in LF for the Sox.


I'm not sure which other prospect your talking about but Espinoza finished 2016 posting a 6-11 record with a 4.49 ERA in high A, not a great start.
Pitching development is not linear. Sorry you don't get it but it's really no longer worth discussing.


Not to mention if Panda disappoints like everyone seems to think he will, we still have Devers, who's batting well in Salem so far, by the way a prospect in a position of need DD did not trade away.
Edgar Renteria's season in BOS was substantially in line with his previous season in STL but he was widely panned in BOS because of his defense. Devers could be the same. That's probably why we've signed TWO depth guys with 3B experience.

I think that the thing that you misunderstand the most is that those of us who dislike what DD has done are not necessarily unhappy about any particular deal but with the composite. I wasn't thrilled about the Kimbrell deal because we overpaid but I understood it. I believe that we'll ultimately lose on that deal but the average fan will think it was okay because we got a "great" closer in time to have his worst seasons because he was asked to do more than take a clean 9th inning to the bank. We got good value on Miley. We vastly overpaid on Pomeranz and, if he goes to the BP as many expect, the deal will be a big mistake even if Espinoza never makes it to MLB (a misuse of the value of the prospect). Moncada/Kopech for Sale was a decent trade. It could honestly end up being a tie. But all of that in just over a year? We'd better win a ****ing world series before 2020 because we'll struggle after that.