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View Full Version : Muggsy Bogues on the HOF ballot.... would you vote him in?



JasonJohnHorn
12-22-2016, 01:05 AM
Part of me says hell yeah! A 14-year career for a man of his stature is unprecedented, and his assist-to-turnover ration was jaw dropping.

I realize that he would be setting the bar awfully low statistically and with respect to accolades. But there is some context here that makes his story one worthy of the Hall.

I am of two minds though, since he never really won, he didn't put up crazy great stats, and never won an award of made an All-Star or All-NBA team.

We can't just go and give this award to a guy because he was short and managed to hold his own for so long


Help me make up my mind.

Pfeifer
12-22-2016, 01:25 AM
I say yes strictly on his Space Jam appearance. Also everything you said lol.

Cracka2HI!
12-22-2016, 01:34 AM
If their were a short person hall of fame, yes. NBA hall of fame? No.

hughest4
12-22-2016, 01:35 AM
Definitely defied the odds and had a long, successful career...but he isn't a HOFer.

tredigs
12-22-2016, 01:37 AM
Of course not. Can't just hand out a pass to the hall because a dude was super short, it would set a terrible precedent for an already somewhat underwhelming Hall Of Fame.

Solid player and super fun to watch but I mean if you're not even among the elite of your own time, you can't be voted into the elite of All Time.

IKnowHoops
12-22-2016, 01:46 AM
NBA has the worst hall of fame standards. He probably deserves to be in there more than some other players who are in there already.

tredigs
12-22-2016, 03:21 AM
NBA has the worst hall of fame standards. He probably deserves to be in there more than some other players who are in there already.
No, he'd easily be the least deserving player in the Hall. All NBA players like Mark Price and Webber haven't even got in.

dhopisthename
12-22-2016, 03:41 AM
not even close. so many other guys who should get in before him

Chronz
12-22-2016, 06:26 AM
NBA has the worst hall of fame standards. He probably deserves to be in there more than some other players who are in there already.
Wat

Saddletramp
12-22-2016, 07:08 AM
Loved Muggsy just as much as the next guy but no. Then again, I wouldn't complain. Then again, I'm lit up so I probably shouldn't comment. Loved Muggsy, though.

Scoots
12-22-2016, 09:15 AM
I got to introduce my nephew to him in the late 90s, totally cool guy and he really loved what he did for kids with being so small. But no.

YAALREADYKNO
12-22-2016, 09:44 AM
not even close. so many other guys who should get in before him

This. Like Tmac who is on the ballot this year for example

IndyRealist
12-22-2016, 09:47 AM
Does everyone know who he is? Then he at least deserves consideration.

Kinkotheclown
12-22-2016, 09:55 AM
I think sometimes you have to reconsider that it is the Hall of "Fame". Sometimes exceptions need to be made in a statistical sense. He was and is one of them well known, appreciated and memorable players and to me, that is fame.
He also had a long career which shows perseverance and endurance.
I know many players can boast the longevity but for a guy famously called midget by MJ, I find it a bit more impressive. His skills kept him here, not his size.

He has good stats.
He is not remotely an all time great. He is not even great by pro standards. But he is certainly a fantastic story and famous for who he is, the shortest player to ever play and the fact that he was able to have such a long career in the NBA. So I think he should be in the Hall.

Redrum187
12-22-2016, 10:44 AM
If he could block Manute Bol's shot, I say yes.

JasonJohnHorn
12-22-2016, 11:40 AM
I think sometimes you have to reconsider that it is the Hall of "Fame". Sometimes exceptions need to be made in a statistical sense. He was and is one of them well known, appreciated and memorable players and to me, that is fame.
He also had a long career which shows perseverance and endurance.
I know many players can boast the longevity but for a guy famously called midget by MJ, I find it a bit more impressive. His skills kept him here, not his size.

He has good stats.
He is not remotely an all time great. He is not even great by pro standards. But he is certainly a fantastic story and famous for who he is, the shortest player to ever play and the fact that he was able to have such a long career in the NBA. So I think he should be in the Hall.



Excellent point. I've been on the fence.... but now that you've put it this way... I think there is a case.


For those saying he'd be the worst player in the Hall... certainly not. There are awful, awful players in there from early in the league. They help set the foundation of the league, but wouldn't even sniff the D-league today.

ewing
12-22-2016, 12:08 PM
5'3 is a stat and since we put in a token girl every year why not?

Scoots
12-22-2016, 03:03 PM
We all know who Gilbert Arenas, Metta World Peace, and Manute Bol are ... "fame" itself is not enough.

tredigs
12-22-2016, 03:33 PM
Excellent point. I've been on the fence.... but now that you've put it this way... I think there is a case.


For those saying he'd be the worst player in the Hall... certainly not. There are awful, awful players in there from early in the league. They help set the foundation of the league, but wouldn't even sniff the D-league today.

No, he doesn't have a case. Fun fun player and a personal favorite at the time, but absolutely no case. Nitpicking on players from the 40's or 50's who made huge contributions to the game and/or were significantly better relative to their peers is not a good argument either.

It would just be an incredibly stupid precedent to give a player an induction to the Hall based on his size and an OK career. Do we then give Spud Webb the HOF nod due to being 5'6" and having a more impressive peak and a dunk title that put him on the map? Is IT now on a Hall Of Fame trajectory because he's 5'8" as opposed to 6'1"?

sep11ie
12-22-2016, 03:56 PM
NBA JAMS Hall of Fame

IKnowHoops
12-22-2016, 04:50 PM
No, he'd easily be the least deserving player in the Hall. All NBA players like Mark Price and Webber haven't even got in.

I don't know. If Goose Tatum gets in for being the funniest Harlem Globetrotter, Mugsy should get in for doing the impossible making it in the nba at 5'3".

JasonJohnHorn
12-22-2016, 10:09 PM
No, he doesn't have a case. Fun fun player and a personal favorite at the time, but absolutely no case. Nitpicking on players from the 40's or 50's who made huge contributions to the game and/or were significantly better relative to their peers is not a good argument either.

It would just be an incredibly stupid precedent to give a player an induction to the Hall based on his size and an OK career. Do we then give Spud Webb the HOF nod due to being 5'6" and having a more impressive peak and a dunk title that put him on the map? Is IT now on a Hall Of Fame trajectory because he's 5'8" as opposed to 6'1"?

His point is that it is the hall of fame, not, say, the hall of the all-time greatest players.


There are guys in the Harlem Globe Trotters in the HOF. And the guys in the 50's.... they didn't necessarily do that much for the game: they were just there when the league was starting. Being in on the ground floor shouldn't be enough, but it seems that it was for a lot of guys.


I'd be ok with Bogues getting in or not getting in. But he was a great ambassador to the game. Every franchise he played for, he was the guy working hard to be a positive public face for the team, and fans were always receptive to him. He has a great underdog story, and was a very talented player. His assist-to-turnover ratio is among the best ever. He got 4.7 assists for every turnover. There might be somebody better, but if there is, I don't know who it is. Top-20 in assists (top 15 at the time of his retirement).

There are elements of his game that were very unique and unparalleled.

Though you have a point too.

IKnowHoops
12-22-2016, 10:34 PM
Wat

The funniest Harlem Globetrotter made it in bruh...because he was the funniest...

tredigs
12-23-2016, 12:02 AM
The funniest Harlem Globetrotter made it in bruh...because he was the funniest...
Because he was the most popular of the time and the globetrotters were icons (nothing like what they currently are... nobody cares anymore). Great broadcasters are in as well. But Bogues was an NBA player, nothing more. And he should be judged on those merits (I'm sure he would be the first to back me up in that stance). As such, he's not a Hall Of Famer.

@Jonhorn and the assist:to ratio. Yes, his assist:to was awesome, but it was also hugely aided by the fact that he was a 7ppg scorer (on an abysmal 50% TS). When you're not looking to score (and your dribble being a foot below the average player and essentially impossible to steal), you're not going to turn it over very often. It makes sense.

You're wanting to take the hall of fame and take it as "hall of popularity" rather than the general definition for NBA players which is "hall of greats". It's silly. And my points about other mini players like Spud Webb who were better than him illustrate why.

Anyway, enough Muggsy Hall talk for this guy.

JasonJohnHorn
12-23-2016, 12:46 AM
If he could block Manute Bol's shot, I say yes.

How about Nate Robinson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svsHlH-IvbY

He blocked Yao Ming! lol

ewing
12-23-2016, 12:58 AM
How about Nate Robinson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svsHlH-IvbY

He blocked Yao Ming! lol

Nate is like 5 8'. That is like an average size Asian. Muggy was 5'3, that is short for the WNBA. You will see a guy Nate's size play in the NBA again in your life you wont see another Muggy. He is a HOFer

IKnowHoops
12-23-2016, 03:46 AM
Nate is like 5 8'. That is like an average size Asian. Muggy was 5'3, that is short for the WNBA. You will see a guy Nate's size play in the NBA again in your life you wont see another Muggy. He is a HOFer

I gotta agree Based on what has gotten into the hall of fame... the fact that novelty and not skill can sometimes be the sole reason for getting in...SHAQ?LEBRON?MUGSY? They all have something in common. There is only one of them ever, and most likely you will never see a player like them again.

Phantom Dreamer
12-23-2016, 03:59 AM
NBA has the worst hall of fame standards. He probably deserves to be in there more than some other players who are in there already.The NBA doesn't have a Hall of Fame.

Chronz
12-23-2016, 04:02 AM
The funniest Harlem Globetrotter made it in bruh...because he was the funniest...

Yeah but they rep basketball outside the NBA. I suppose we can take the HOF less seriously and more gimmicky but then why not add Bol and the like? Still, until the NBA has its own HOF, Im cool with whoever they want getting in. Nothing can be worse than waiting until Biasone died to name him.

ewing
12-23-2016, 10:08 AM
Yeah but they rep basketball outside the NBA. I suppose we can take the HOF less seriously and more gimmicky but then why not add Bol and the like? Still, until the NBA has its own HOF, Im cool with whoever they want getting in. Nothing can be worse than waiting until Biasone died to name him.

b/c its not surprising that a really really tall guy made it

JasonJohnHorn
12-23-2016, 12:25 PM
I gotta agree Based on what has gotten into the hall of fame... the fact that novelty and not skill can sometimes be the sole reason for getting in...SHAQ?LEBRON?MUGSY? They all have something in common. There is only one of them ever, and most likely you will never see a player like them again.

Excellent point!

tredigs
12-23-2016, 02:30 PM
Excellent point!

Lmao. I HAVE to assume you guys are just trolling at this point. "What's the dif between him and two top-10 players ever? ... 'Excellent point!".

Lol the **** are you guys saying in here?

5ass
12-23-2016, 03:52 PM
Lmao. I HAVE to assume you guys are just trolling at this point. "What's the dif between him and two top-10 players ever? ... 'Excellent point!".

Lol the **** are you guys saying in here?

Lol where does it stop? Would they vote for Selah mejri because he's the first Tunisian player in the NBA?

Miltstar
12-23-2016, 11:05 PM
I voted no, but on second thought he could be in there as a special "smallest player to ever play" exhibit, but then you'd probably have to put Bol and Muresan in too. I wouldn't mind an honorable mention type thing in there but I don't think he deserves a spot based on his play alone

IKnowHoops
12-24-2016, 04:00 AM
Lmao. I HAVE to assume you guys are just trolling at this point. "What's the dif between him and two top-10 players ever? ... 'Excellent point!".

Lol the **** are you guys saying in here?

But see how you had to 1st, say something different, and 2nd, make it much more vague thus making it a different argument? Thus allowing you to have one. I see you Tre. That's not the point we are making. The point we are making is that you will never see a Mugsy bogues again because what he did was to difficult do create again physically. Same with Lebron, same with Shaq.

Lebron and Shaq are huge guys.

The NBA is designed for guys like that. We have never seen guys there height with the physicality to dominate the league.

Mugsy Bogues is 5'3

The NBA is designed to keep guys like that out. We have never seen a guy his height with the physicality to even play a single game in the league let alone have a successful career.

I would guess we would see another Shaq or Lebron before we see a 5'3 NBA player.

Again, what Mugsy did was 100% IMPOSSIBLE. How could he last that long, and Khalid El-Amin at 5'10" could not even last 40 games...and Khalid was an AMAZING COLD BLOODED KILLER with DUMB SKILLS and HIGH IQ

IKnowHoops
12-24-2016, 04:10 AM
[QUOTE]I voted no, but on second thought he could be in there as a special "smallest player to ever play" exhibit,

Yes



but then you'd probably have to put Bol and Muresan in too.

No, they are supposed to be in the NBA. Mugs has no business being in the league.


I wouldn't mind an honorable mention type thing in there but I don't think he deserves a spot based on his play alone

Don't confuse being rewarded for being "the shortest", with being rewarded for making it into the NBA despite being impossibly short by NBA standards.

Thats what is happening here. Thats why Manute Bol is not being considered because being 7 foot 7 makes him the tallest, but it doesn't make what he did impossible or amazing.

IKnowHoops
12-24-2016, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE]If it would allow you idiots to stfu I'm all for it.

Great argument, I will think on that one.


If it is based on any NBA merits?
LOL, Tre, you don't read, you just reply, or course its not on NBA merit. I said in many diff ways that the Basketball hall of fame is a joke and people are in there based on novelty and not skill.

You are an idiot.
I 100% agree

Dude was never a top 50 player in his own NBA, let alone the top of All Time.
I 100% agree, but neither was the funniest Harlem globe trotter.

It's not a circuis you *******.
Actually yes it is, and having the funniest Harlem Globetrotter, because he was the funniest, makes it a circus. And yes I have personally been to a Globetrotter game back in the late 80's early 90's, when there arch enemy was some green colored team that had just acquired its secret weapon to beat them...a woman...so forgive me if I dont think the funniest Harlem Globetrotter who was nothing at the highest level of basketball, got into the basketball hall of fame for his personality. For some reason your not seeing that a funny Harlem Globetrotter getting in makes the basketball hall of fame a place where skills, and top 50, don't matter.

NYKalltheway
12-25-2016, 06:44 AM
Yes he is. Stop basing your opinions on raw numbers without any context guys, it's annoying and naive.

And there is no NBA Hall of Fame...

dhopisthename
12-25-2016, 11:53 AM
mugsy has zero chance at the hall of fame. none. he was a mediocre college player, below average nba player, did nothing in the Olympics, and has zero stats that lead credence to him getting in. No one cares he was only 5-3.

Also, the basketball hall of fame isn't half as easy to get in as you guys make it out to be. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/moncrsi01.html he hasn't made it in yet, http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardati01.html hasn't made it, and another example http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html . all those guys were multiple all nba, all stars, and moncrief won the dpoy twice.

Sly Guy
12-25-2016, 02:10 PM
No. Why? because he was short? That's not a good enough reason.

tredigs
12-25-2016, 03:21 PM
Bill Simmons Podcasts indirectly touched on this topic perfectly a few days ago when discussing NBA unicorns. Say what you will about Simmons, but the guy has a good feel for the game and it's major story lines over the past 4 decades. They were discussing his "NBA Unicorns" piece and he laid out about 15 players/skill sets he didn't think we'd see for a long time if ever again. Finally somebody landed on Mugsy's name and it was a "yeah but he wasn't ever really any good so", followed by uniform solidarity and moving on to the next question.

Point being, he was fun, but he didn't matter. A globetrotter at that time can get in because they spread the game worldwide massively and we're a HUGE show at the time (I don't think some of you guys realize how differently they were perceived in the past). The most popular of those teams (in a game that was based on popularity, not production) do have merit as members of the Hall. In current days the players of the Trotters have 0 influence and it's not comparable (and none will get in).

When your ONLY claim to the Hall is, "well I was really short", it's not enough. Had he even made a single All Star game (I.E., fans of the time actually cared enough to vote him in and/or coaches thought he was worthy), then this is a different discussion. They didn't. You want to make legend out of somebody that was an afterthought in his own era (I liked him a lot, but most didn't care since his influence on a game was only slightly larger than his size). That's not how it works.

ewing
12-26-2016, 09:26 AM
I care


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Kinkotheclown
12-26-2016, 12:02 PM
I care


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I like you because you are sensitive.

valade16
12-26-2016, 02:16 PM
If Mugsey gets in why doesn't Spud Webb deserve to get in then?

Hawkeye15
12-27-2016, 12:30 PM
absolutely not. Even trying to couple in college stats doesn't cut it. No way on earth Bogues should be in the HOF.

Scoots
12-27-2016, 01:06 PM
If height is a criteria Debbie Black should get in before Muggsy.

She is the only woman ever to record a quadruple double in professional competition, she won a gold with the US team, She was WNBA defensive player of the year, she was a 2 time ABL all-star, she played 16 years of pro ball. She then went on to be an assistant coach of the teams at div 1 schools Vanderbilt and Ohio State for 10 years before moving to be the head coach of the team at Eastern Illinois.

The Naismith Hall of Fame is for accomplishments in basketball at any level.

AND she was SHORTER than Muggsy at 5'2.5".

ewing
12-27-2016, 03:18 PM
If Mugsey gets in why doesn't Spud Webb deserve to get in then?

Bc spud was 4 ins taller


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ewing
12-27-2016, 03:19 PM
If height is a criteria Debbie Black should get in before Muggsy.

She is the only woman ever to record a quadruple double in professional competition, she won a gold with the US team, She was WNBA defensive player of the year, she was a 2 time ABL all-star, she played 16 years of pro ball. She then went on to be an assistant coach of the teams at div 1 schools Vanderbilt and Ohio State for 10 years before moving to be the head coach of the team at Eastern Illinois.

The Naismith Hall of Fame is for accomplishments in basketball at any level.

AND she was SHORTER than Muggsy at 5'2.5".

She's a girl, who played against girls, and is barely shorter. You're not making sense


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Jamiecballer
12-27-2016, 03:28 PM
This isn't like me at all but I'm going to say yes. He has what to me is perhaps the greatest accomplishment any player who has ever played - he was a productive NBA player at 5 foot 3. If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it was possible.

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valade16
12-27-2016, 03:51 PM
Bc spud was 4 ins taller


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He's listed as 5'6"

Can anyone name another 5'6" player who was productive at the NBA level?

ewing
12-27-2016, 04:45 PM
He's listed as 5'6"

Can anyone name another 5'6" player who was productive at the NBA level?

He was always reported as 5'7" during his playing days and a quick look at websites had all but one saying 5'7". Other 5'7" guys that come to mind are Earl Boykins- i think he was 5'5. He is slightly shorter then Calvin and IT.
I'm not disrespecting Spud but 4 inches is a lot

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tredigs
12-27-2016, 05:14 PM
He was always reported as 5'7" during his playing days and a quick look at websites had all but one saying 5'7". Other 5'7" guys that come to mind are Earl Boykins- i think he was 5'5. He is slightly shorter then Calvin and IT.
I'm not disrespecting Spud but 4 inches is a lot

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That's future Hall Of Famer Earl Boykins to you. And Spud was 5'7" with shoes on.

Scoots
12-27-2016, 11:16 PM
She's a girl, who played against girls, and is barely shorter. You're not making sense


She also had a better career than Muggsy.

ewing
12-28-2016, 10:48 AM
She also had a better career than Muggsy.

Would you rather play in the WNBA or the NBA?


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KnicksorBust
12-28-2016, 10:52 AM
Since this hall of fame is ceremonial and not strictly NBA hall of fame, I get the argument. But my answer is still no. Just because a Globetrotter got in doesn't open the doors to unworthy candidates.

Scoots
12-28-2016, 11:40 AM
Would you rather play in the WNBA or the NBA?


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You do realize the basketball hall of fame does respect context right?

ewing
12-28-2016, 12:44 PM
You do realize the basketball hall of fame does respect context right?

Really? Can I get in for my high school career?


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PowerHouse
12-28-2016, 01:27 PM
Using this same logic does Oliver Miller get in for being the fattest player of all time?

He also "had no business" being in the league right?

Chronz
12-28-2016, 01:41 PM
Really? Can I get in for my high school career?


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Stats?

Hawkeye15
12-28-2016, 02:11 PM
Really? Can I get in for my high school career?


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what was your PER? How many win shares did you have?

Sly Guy
12-28-2016, 02:57 PM
lol at all the little napolean's saying yes......

ewing
12-28-2016, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE=tredigs;31371792]That's future Hall Of Famer Earl Boykins to you. And Spud was 5'7" with shoes on.[/

Bogus was 5'3" in heels


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bagwell368
12-28-2016, 09:40 PM
ridiculous

ewing
12-28-2016, 11:37 PM
ridiculous

I know. He should definitely get in


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steelcityroller
12-29-2016, 12:28 AM
If Mugsey gets in why doesn't Spud Webb deserve to get in then?

I guess you have to make that conversation because Spud Webb winning the dunk contest at 5'7 was a big deal. He also had a couple years where he averaged 14-16 points and 7 assists and was a better shooter than Muggsy Bogues.


Would you rather play in the WNBA or the NBA?


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The NBA.... I already make $35,000 a year so no thanks WNBA.

Jamiecballer
12-29-2016, 04:16 PM
lol at all the little napolean's saying yes......
Hey i'm 6'4 turd ferguson

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IKnowHoops
12-29-2016, 04:45 PM
Using this same logic does Oliver Miller get in for being the fattest player of all time?

He also "had no business" being in the league right?

Lolol...hahaha...nah, round mounds of rebound who were shorter have gotten in. Fat and tall is great for boxing out. Super short is good for nothing in the league.

IKnowHoops
12-29-2016, 04:47 PM
That's future Hall Of Famer Earl Boykins to you. And Spud was 5'7" with shoes on.

Psh--...lol

IKnowHoops
12-29-2016, 04:49 PM
[QUOTE=tredigs;31371792]That's future Hall Of Famer Earl Boykins to you. And Spud was 5'7" with shoes on.[/

Bogus was 5'3" in heels


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This thread is great

IKnowHoops
12-29-2016, 04:52 PM
I guess you have to make that conversation because Spud Webb winning the dunk contest at 5'7 was a big deal. He also had a couple years where he averaged 14-16 points and 7 assists and was a better shooter than Muggsy Bogues.



The NBA.... I already make $35,000 a year so no thanks WNBA.

What about endorsements!?!?