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Redrum187
11-30-2016, 04:58 PM
Rank these 3 players as of today:

Defense:
1.)
2.)
3.)

Offense:
1.)
2.)
3.)

Leadership:
1.)
2.)
3.)

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.)
2.)
3.)

These 3 players have become really great two-way players. How far apart are they from each other? Feel free to add/include other variables to rank them.

Giannis94
11-30-2016, 05:02 PM
I would like to point out that Giannis is 22 (well technically 21 but turns 22 next week), Butler is 27 and Leonard is 25.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2016, 05:04 PM
I would like to point out that Giannis is 22 (well technically 21 but turns 22 next week), Butler is 27 and Leonard is 25.

so?

Hawkeye15
11-30-2016, 05:05 PM
Rank these 3 players as of today:

Defense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Offense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Leadership:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.) KL
2.) GA
3.) JB

aman_13
11-30-2016, 05:05 PM
I would like to point out that Giannis is 22 (well technically 21 but turns 22 next week), Butler is 27 and Leonard is 25.

Which should have no bearing on this ranking but thanks for pointing that out :)

Giannis94
11-30-2016, 05:07 PM
so?

It was a random fun-fact that is relevant. Here's another one: Greek Good trumps a Akron King.

I'm going to the gym now, but I'll roast everyone with my knowledge later as I assume that everyone will troll me and not give BAE the respect he deserves.

aman_13
11-30-2016, 05:07 PM
Rank these 3 players as of today:

Defense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Offense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Leadership:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.) KL
2.) GA
3.) JB

That's my ranking as well. Hard to rank leadership tho.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2016, 05:10 PM
That's my ranking as well. Hard to rank leadership tho.

absolutely. Which is why I went with a San Antonio all NBA player first, then the far more experienced Butler, then Giannis.

aman_13
11-30-2016, 05:11 PM
absolutely. Which is why I went with a San Antonio all NBA player first, then the far more experienced Butler, then Giannis.

Yeah that's probably the best way to go about that category for the sake of the question.

valade16
11-30-2016, 05:13 PM
I think if Butler maintains his early season play all-season he should be ahead of Gianni's in the overall talent/potential rank as well.

mngopher35
11-30-2016, 05:14 PM
Rank these 3 players as of today:

Defense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Offense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Leadership:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.) KL
2.) GA
3.) JB

That would probably be mine as well

Hawkeye15
11-30-2016, 05:15 PM
I think if Butler maintains his early season play all-season he should be ahead of Gianni's in the overall talent/potential rank as well.

I bolded future in my response, because talent/potential/future is kind of 3 different things...

da ThRONe
11-30-2016, 05:21 PM
Really Kawhi doesn't even belong in this discussion. It would have made more sense to discuss Butler and Antetokounmpo.

R!kSm!tz
11-30-2016, 05:57 PM
Giannis is BAE!

Stunner
11-30-2016, 07:35 PM
Butler > Paul George

R!kSm!tz
11-30-2016, 07:44 PM
Offense:

Jimmy
Kawhi
Giannis

Defense:

Kawhi
Jimmy
Giannis

Leadership:

Kawhi (All NBA/Finals MVP
Jimmy
Giannis

Future:

Giannis (easily)
Kawhi
Jimmy (oldest)

Jimmy is the 2nd best player in the East and I'm honestly blown away by what I've seen from him this year so far. He posted a pic saying Wade was the biggest reason for this because he's constantly on him. It's a bad trait but Jimmy wouldn't listen to much advice from anyone in previous but he listens to Wade.

Giannis needs to be getting up 500 shots 3-4 days a week during the season and 1000-1500 4-5 days a week in the offseason. If he does what Kawhi and Jimmy have done and developed a good jumper, especially from 3 then I believe his ceiling is much higher than the other 2.

Stunner
11-30-2016, 08:12 PM
Offense

Jimmy
Leonard
Giannis


Defense

Leonard
Jimmy
Giannis


Leadership

Leonard
Jimmy
Giannis


Future

Giannis
Leonard
Jimmy




Offensively the edge goes to Jimmy over Leonard This year so far if you dig into the stats



More points , Playing less mins , lower usage , higher TS% and has the highest PER of the 3 players .

Giannis94
11-30-2016, 08:25 PM
Giannis is BAE!

Amen brother.

I have included my rankings, as quoted below. Before we go any further, I would like to inform everyone that I watched a lot of footage on all 3 players, looked at stats, etc. The following conclusions were not easy to make, but at the end of the day, I belive in the decisions I have made. Last note: These decisions were made WITHOUT BIAS.



Defense:
1.) Giannis (who else can guard all 5 positions?, and well? Child pleasE)
2.) Toss up
3.) Toss up

Offense:
1.) Giannis (Who else can play all 5 positions? LBJ the Akron King? How'd that end up last night?!?!
2.) Toss up
3.) Toss up

Leadership:
1.) Giannis (dude is face of a franchise at 21 years old)
2.) Toss up
3.) Toss up

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.) Giannis (dude turns 23 a week from next Tuesday.
2.) Toss up
3.) Toss up

IndyRealist
11-30-2016, 10:15 PM
Butler > Paul George

I don't know what that has to do with the topic, but true.

Stunner
11-30-2016, 10:36 PM
I don't know what that has to do with the topic, but true.

PG prob should replace Giannis in this current discussion

Shammyguy3
12-01-2016, 12:56 AM
Butler is closer to Leonard than Giannis is to Butler

JAZZNC
12-01-2016, 10:39 AM
Amen brother.

I have included my rankings, as quoted below. Before we go any further, I would like to inform everyone that I watched a lot of footage on all 3 players, looked at stats, etc. The following conclusions were not easy to make, but at the end of the day, I belive in the decisions I have made. Last note: These decisions were made WITHOUT BIAS.

The bolded part is a giant load of crap. Literally never seen a person so biased towards a player. It's sad and really getting old. It was almost funny at first though.

Giannis94
12-01-2016, 11:29 AM
PG prob should replace Giannis in this current discussion


Butler is closer to Leonard than Giannis is to Butler

lol children please

Shammyguy3
12-01-2016, 12:17 PM
lol children please

Do you have anything of substance to add to this thread?

Giannis94
12-01-2016, 12:24 PM
Do you have anything of substance to add to this thread?

What MJ is to you, is Giannis to me. He's ma boy, BLUE!

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-01-2016, 12:25 PM
I knew this would be a bait thread once I seen it go up. I'll take the Giannis for the long haul still 21 yet. Other two got Giannis beat for 3% shooting but that's about it oh and FT%. I had a link for stats comparing all 3 at basket ball references but doesn't pay. People just salty they missed out on drafting Giannis late.

Giannis94
12-01-2016, 12:27 PM
I knew this would be a bait thread once I seen it go up. I'll take the Giannis for the long haul still 21 yet. Other two got Giannis beat for 3% shooting but that's about it oh and FT%. I had a link for stats comparing all 3 at basket ball references but doesn't pay. People just salty they missed out on drafting Giannis late.

We just don't have the fanbase and national band-wagon to back Giannis up in a thread like this.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-01-2016, 12:37 PM
PSD pretty much losing traffic each year. 9 years ago this section was jumping. Easily like 300 to 500 posters and couple 1,000 unregistered lurkers just in this thread. Only time we have a ton people on PSD now is during NBA trade deadline and draft night.

Shammyguy3
12-01-2016, 12:39 PM
How about you back up the player instead of saying there isn't nationwide support?

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-01-2016, 01:32 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id1_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y1=2017&player_id1=antetgi01&hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2_select=Kawhi+Leonard&y2=2017&player_id2=leonaka01&hint=Jimmy+Butler&player_id3_select=Jimmy+Butler&y3=2017&player_id3=butleji01

Giannis has the rebounds, blocks and assists and tied in steals with Leonard. Yeah Giannis probably could be a ball hog and go for 30 every night and sacrifice his assists. But he's been getting 30 a night recently and getting the assists cause he has to shoulder a heavy load with no Middleton. Also age 21. Yeah ya look at Bucks record and only 8-8. We sleep walked through most games and play up to Warriors and Cavs. Did that repeatedly last couple years. Yet Giannis still gets no love over other hyped up players. Still #9 in east and easily couple wins we'll take Knicks 8th seed. Besides no Middleton yet. Also age is on Giannis side as well. Heck Butler already 27 and Leonard 25.

Also Butler been hurt last two seasons cause of heavy minutes played a couple years. All 3 players are excellent. Leonard was a steal in the Hill trade. But then again Spurs are a smart organization. But age is against them. They need to sneak 1 more ring like how the Mavs snuck in that one year catching teams sleep walking. As for Bulls their not to exciting. Sorry to say Shammy. Yeah playoffs right now. But aging Bulls. Yeah they have a few young pieces on the bench. But doesn't move the needle. So all hope is Butler stays happy and Wade plays up to snuff and stays healthy. Bulls need to lure in that third piece yet. But hard to do.

Bump this thread in 5 years when Giannis is 26 and Leonard is 30 and Butler at 32. I'm sure we all will have a chuckle then.

Giannis94
12-01-2016, 01:46 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id1_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y1=2017&player_id1=antetgi01&hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2_select=Kawhi+Leonard&y2=2017&player_id2=leonaka01&hint=Jimmy+Butler&player_id3_select=Jimmy+Butler&y3=2017&player_id3=butleji01

Giannis has the rebounds, blocks and assists and tied in steals with Leonard. Yeah Giannis probably could be a ball hog and go for 30 every night and sacrifice his assists. But he's been getting 30 a night recently and getting the assists cause he has to shoulder a heavy load with no Middleton. Also age 21. Yeah ya look at Bucks record and only 8-8. We sleep walked through most games and play up to Warriors and Cavs. Did that repeatedly last couple years. Yet Giannis still gets no love over other hyped up players. Still #9 in east and easily couple wins we'll take Knicks 8th seed. Besides no Middleton yet. Also age is on Giannis side as well. Heck Butler already 27 and Leonard 25.

Also Butler been hurt last two seasons cause of heavy minutes played a couple years. All 3 players are excellent. Leonard was a steal in the Hill trade. But then again Spurs are a smart organization. But age is against them. They need to sneak 1 more ring like how the Mavs snuck in that one year catching teams sleep walking. As for Bulls their not to exciting. Sorry to say Shammy. Yeah playoffs right now. But aging Bulls. Yeah they have a few young pieces on the bench. But doesn't move the needle. So all hope is Butler stays happy and Wade plays up to snuff and stays healthy. Bulls need to lure in that third piece yet. But hard to do.

Bump this thread in 5 years when Giannis is 26 and Leonard is 30 and Butler at 32. I'm sure we all will have a chuckle then.


Which should have no bearing on this ranking but thanks for pointing that out :)

.

DanG
12-01-2016, 01:51 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id1_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y1=2017&player_id1=antetgi01&hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2_select=Kawhi+Leonard&y2=2017&player_id2=leonaka01&hint=Jimmy+Butler&player_id3_select=Jimmy+Butler&y3=2017&player_id3=butleji01

Giannis has the rebounds, blocks and assists and tied in steals with Leonard. Yeah Giannis probably could be a ball hog and go for 30 every night and sacrifice his assists. But he's been getting 30 a night recently and getting the assists cause he has to shoulder a heavy load with no Middleton. Also age 21. Yeah ya look at Bucks record and only 8-8. We sleep walked through most games and play up to Warriors and Cavs. Did that repeatedly last couple years. Yet Giannis still gets no love over other hyped up players. Still #9 in east and easily couple wins we'll take Knicks 8th seed. Besides no Middleton yet. Also age is on Giannis side as well. Heck Butler already 27 and Leonard 25.

Also Butler been hurt last two seasons cause of heavy minutes played a couple years. All 3 players are excellent. Leonard was a steal in the Hill trade. But then again Spurs are a smart organization. But age is against them. They need to sneak 1 more ring like how the Mavs snuck in that one year catching teams sleep walking. As for Bulls their not to exciting. Sorry to say Shammy. Yeah playoffs right now. But aging Bulls. Yeah they have a few young pieces on the bench. But doesn't move the needle. So all hope is Butler stays happy and Wade plays up to snuff and stays healthy. Bulls need to lure in that third piece yet. But hard to do.

Bump this thread in 5 years when Giannis is 26 and Leonard is 30 and Butler at 32. I'm sure we all will have a chuckle then.

Bucks are 8-8 with most of the games played at home. East is so weak, nobody really cares about the numbers if the team is irrelevant.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-01-2016, 02:03 PM
Bucks are 8-8 with most of the games played at home. East is so weak, nobody really cares about the numbers if the team is irrelevant.

We also have Kidd as our coach. He has the craziest rotations and line ups. Players go from starters to DNP-CD's. Also factor in key injury to Middleton. Also we have the Nets up twice in back to backs. If we take both of those we take the Knicks 8th seed. Come January Kidd will shorten the rotations. If were playoffs Middleton should be ready at end of season. Actually east catching up. West getting old.

warfelg
12-01-2016, 02:39 PM
We also have Kidd as our coach. He has the craziest rotations and line ups. Players go from starters to DNP-CD's. Also factor in key injury to Middleton. Also we have the Nets up twice in back to backs. If we take both of those we take the Knicks 8th seed. Come January Kidd will shorten the rotations. If were playoffs Middleton should be ready at end of season. Actually east catching up. West getting old.

I think honestly...all that factored in Giannis has opportunities the other two don't. Butler has Wade and Rondo. Leonard is in a very structured offense. Giannis has a green light the other two don't.

Not saying it's a bad thing.

But it's definitely giving him a different look.

Vincent
12-01-2016, 02:51 PM
I knew this would be a bait thread once I seen it go up. I'll take the Giannis for the long haul still 21 yet. Other two got Giannis beat for 3% shooting but that's about it oh and FT%. I had a link for stats comparing all 3 at basket ball references but doesn't pay. People just salty they missed out on drafting Giannis late.

Lol except...

Kawhi Leonard - Drafted 2011 Pick #15
Jimmy Butler - Drafted 2011 Pick #30
Giannis Antekokounmpo - Drafted 2013 Pick #15

Plus, I don't think anyone is saying that Giannis doesn't have a higher ceiling than Leonard or Butler. But potential is relatively hallow until it's realized.

cmellofan15
12-01-2016, 02:58 PM
comparing giannis to kawhi is an insult

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-01-2016, 03:04 PM
Lol except...

Kawhi Leonard - Drafted 2011 Pick #15
Jimmy Butler - Drafted 2011 Pick #30
Giannis Antekokounmpo - Drafted 2013 Pick #15

Plus, I don't think anyone is saying that Giannis doesn't have a higher ceiling than Leonard or Butler. But potential is relatively hallow until it's realized.

So your saying Giannis potential is hallow? Thank you for the chuckle. Giannis broke like 2 NBA records this year a couple last year. Still 21.

Giannis94
12-01-2016, 03:07 PM
comparing giannis to kawhi is an insult

comparing Kawhi to Giannis is a slap in the face to BAE.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-01-2016, 03:18 PM
Lol except...

Kawhi Leonard - Drafted 2011 Pick #15
Jimmy Butler - Drafted 2011 Pick #30
Giannis Antekokounmpo - Drafted 2013 Pick #15

Plus, I don't think anyone is saying that Giannis doesn't have a higher ceiling than Leonard or Butler. But potential is relatively hallow until it's realized.

Giannis 2 seasons behind them, and all caught up stats wise and surpassing them both in most categories. Giannis has the blocks, rebounds, assists over them both. Also tied for steals average with Leonard. Also 21 years old for a week or so yet. Wait till Giannis 3 ball % goes up then its all over. Then he's easily top 5 player then.

valade16
12-01-2016, 03:31 PM
The main thing separating Gianni's from Kawhi and Butler at this point isn't their statistical achievement, but Kawhi and Butler's defense.

Chronz
12-01-2016, 03:37 PM
I think honestly...all that factored in Giannis has opportunities the other two don't. Butler has Wade and Rondo. Leonard is in a very structured offense. Giannis has a green light the other two don't.

Not saying it's a bad thing.

But it's definitely giving him a different look.
Bingo. Dude was held back When sharing the ball with mcw. Granted he's a ****** player but he's yet to prove his mettle

Vee-Rex
12-01-2016, 04:16 PM
Giannis 2 seasons behind them, and all caught up stats wise and surpassing them both in most categories. Giannis has the blocks, rebounds, assists over them both. Also tied for steals average with Leonard. Also 21 years old for a week or so yet. Wait till Giannis 3 ball % goes up then its all over. Then he's easily top 5 player then.

Patience, young buck!

I told people Giannis would be the 5th best SF after this year, but I may have been wrong. He COULD eclipse Paul George. However, I think it's too early to draw those kind of conclusions right now.

I want to see how Giannis performs in the playoffs when teams are game-planning against him. He stunk it up badly in 2014-15, but that's ages ago for a player who is only now 22 years old.

He has a lot to prove.

Giannis94
12-01-2016, 04:19 PM
Patience, young buck!

I told people Giannis would be the 5th best SF after this year, but I may have been wrong. He COULD eclipse Paul George. However, I think it's too early to draw those kind of conclusions right now.

I want to see how Giannis performs in the playoffs when teams are game-planning against him. He stunk it up badly in 2014-15, but that's ages ago for a player who is only now 22 years old.

He has a lot to prove.

And George is 26. Why don't we compare Giannis to players within a year of him age wise? Answer: There are very few players, if any, that you can compare to Giannis- a 21 year old.

Vee-Rex
12-01-2016, 04:27 PM
I'll post my rankings:

Defense:

1.) Kawhi
2.) Buckets
3.) BAE

Giannis is playing well overall defensively but his perimeter/3-point man-to-man defense has been bad so far.

Offense:

1.) Buckets
2.) BAE
3.) Kawhi

Surprisingly I'm placing Giannis over Kawhi here. I think it's extremely close and I respect people putting Kawhi over Giannis, I just feel that I need Kawhi to create plays for teammates in this situation. If we were going with just scoring (instead of offense) then I'd put Kawhi above Giannis but Giannis doesn't JUST get assists - he creates offense for his teammates.

Leadership:

1.) Kawhi
2.) Buckets
3.) BAE

This one is obvious. FMVP for Kawhi. Playoff experience for Buckets. BAE just needs more time.

Future/Potential

1.) BAE
2.) Kawhi
3.) Buckets

BAE doesn't even have to develop a crazy jumper. If he can, minimally, develop a decent/okay jumper he should be fine. He's also a bit turnover-happy and sometimes really sloppy with the ball but that should improve with time.

Vee-Rex
12-01-2016, 04:29 PM
And George is 26. Why don't we compare Giannis to players within a year of him age wise? Answer: There are very few players, if any, that you can compare to Giannis- a 21 year old.

No doubt. Giannis is a freak and looks to eventually outshine all of them if he keeps improving (and he should). It's pretty awesome that we're comparing him at his age to guys who are starting to enter their prime.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2016, 04:57 PM
And George is 26. Why don't we compare Giannis to players within a year of him age wise? Answer: There are very few players, if any, that you can compare to Giannis- a 21 year old.

because it doesn't matter....

Once you are in the NBA, age doesn't matter anymore, except when evaluating for planning purposes, team wise. Meaning, sure, I probably take the 21 year old Giannis over a 31 year old LeBron for the next 10 years. But why does that matter this year?

Trust me, I get your line of thinking. It's why Towns won the GM Survey on "who would you build around". But Towns isn't a top 10 player right now, so that survey doesn't mean anything currently.

warfelg
12-01-2016, 05:44 PM
.

kyubi256
12-01-2016, 05:48 PM
KL is a top 5 MVP candidate...

Shammyguy3
12-01-2016, 09:15 PM
I'll post my rankings:

Defense:

1.) Kawhi
2.) Buckets
3.) BAE

Giannis is playing well overall defensively but his perimeter/3-point man-to-man defense has been bad so far.

Offense:

1.) Buckets
2.) BAE
3.) Kawhi

Surprisingly I'm placing Giannis over Kawhi here. I think it's extremely close and I respect people putting Kawhi over Giannis, I just feel that I need Kawhi to create plays for teammates in this situation. If we were going with just scoring (instead of offense) then I'd put Kawhi above Giannis but Giannis doesn't JUST get assists - he creates offense for his teammates.

Leadership:

1.) Kawhi
2.) Buckets
3.) BAE

This one is obvious. FMVP for Kawhi. Playoff experience for Buckets. BAE just needs more time.

Future/Potential

1.) BAE
2.) Kawhi
3.) Buckets

BAE doesn't even have to develop a crazy jumper. If he can, minimally, develop a decent/okay jumper he should be fine. He's also a bit turnover-happy and sometimes really sloppy with the ball but that should improve with time.

Agree with this completely

cmellofan15
12-02-2016, 12:41 AM
comparing Kawhi to Giannis is a slap in the face to BAE.

I get that youre a troll now....but why try to give actual input when its apparent that youre full of ****?

IKnowHoops
12-02-2016, 02:18 AM
Giannis is impressive

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 12:19 PM
I get that youre a troll now....but why try to give actual input when its apparent that youre full of ****?

1.) I am not a troll. 2.) My rankings were without bias. 3.) Giannis gets no love.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:30 PM
1.) I am not a troll. 2.) My rankings were without bias. 3.) Giannis gets no love.

He's been the greek freak since he came into the league. I'm not sure how he "gets no love".

Shammyguy3
12-02-2016, 01:51 PM
1.) I am not a troll. 2.) My rankings were without bias. 3.) Giannis gets no love.

I think you are absolutely baiting with incessantly bringing up Giannis in every post. Giannis does get love. But you're comparing him to Leonard and Butler, both better players that have also been productive longer than 20 games this season and the end of last season. If you were to compare Giannis to Paul George, Gordon Hayward, Carmelo Anthony then even based just on this season i don't think anyone wouldn't pick Giannis.


Tell me, based on today where would you rank Giannis overall in the league?

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 01:58 PM
I think you are absolutely baiting with incessantly bringing up Giannis in every post. Giannis does get love. But you're comparing him to Leonard and Butler, both better players that have also been productive longer than 20 games this season and the end of last season. If you were to compare Giannis to Paul George, Gordon Hayward, Carmelo Anthony then even based just on this season i don't think anyone wouldn't pick Giannis.


Tell me, based on today where would you rank Giannis overall in the league?

Right now: 12-16 range?
By end of next season: 5-7 range
Next 10 years: Top 2 battling KAT

Shammyguy3
12-02-2016, 02:27 PM
Right now: 12-16 range?
By end of next season: 5-7 range
Next 10 years: Top 2 battling KAT

Ok so why are you getting upset about people putting Kawhi/Butler ahead of Giannis? Because based on our "unbiased" post you have Giannis better than both at everything, and if Giannis is only in the 12-16 range then you would be suggesting Butler/Kawhi are lower than #16. So either you are baiting about Giannis being better than those two players, or for some reason find two top-10 players by consensus (and Leonard arguably top-3 to 5) in the lower teens.

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 02:32 PM
Ok so why are you getting upset about people putting Kawhi/Butler ahead of Giannis? Because based on our "unbiased" post you have Giannis better than both at everything, and if Giannis is only in the 12-16 range then you would be suggesting Butler/Kawhi are lower than #16. So either you are baiting about Giannis being better than those two players, or for some reason find two top-10 players by consensus (and Leonard arguably top-3 to 5) in the lower teens.

I mean if we're factoring age into, I'll take BAE over both of them.

Shammyguy3
12-02-2016, 02:40 PM
I mean if we're factoring age into, I'll take BAE over both of them.

Which is a completely different question, not one that you made this thread for.

Bruno
12-02-2016, 03:21 PM
Giannis could be better than Leonard within a year or two.

Bruno
12-02-2016, 03:30 PM
Giannis and the Bucks will be the team to close the championship window on LeBron and the Cavs. probably in 2018 or 2019.

Once Giannis has a full season of this under his belt, his name will be mentioned right there with all the other great wings like its nbd.

Bruno
12-02-2016, 03:38 PM
who feels like explaining to me why Giannis is blowing Leonard and Butler out of the water and D-BPM and DWS 18 games in? surly he's not riding the coat tails of a top five defense to do this, Milwaukee is mid pack in DTRG.

http://bkref.com/tiny/5MQhm

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 03:38 PM
Which is a completely different question, not one that you made this thread for.


Which is a completely different question, not one that you made this thread for.

I made this thread? Might want to double-check that Sherlock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cR4ADXBkII


Redrum187[/SIZE];31325586]Rank these 3 players as of today:

Defense:
1.)
2.)
3.)

Offense:
1.)
2.)
3.)

Leadership:
1.)
2.)
3.)

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.)
2.)
3.)

These 3 players have become really great two-way players. How far apart are they from each other? Feel free to add/include other variables to rank them.

warfelg
12-02-2016, 04:11 PM
Giannis is going to go from underrated to overrated by the end of the season.

Shammyguy3
12-02-2016, 04:14 PM
I made this thread? Might want to double-check that Sherlock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cR4ADXBkII

My bad, thought it was you. Still doesn't change the fact that you place Giannis 12-16 yet have him ahead of Butler/Kawhi for every category brought up in the thread. Doesn't make sense.

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 04:21 PM
My bad, thought it was you. Still doesn't change the fact that you place Giannis 12-16 yet have him ahead of Butler/Kawhi for every category brought up in the thread. Doesn't make sense.

these forums are apparently **** today. will enter my response later tonight.

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 09:57 PM
My bad, thought it was you. Still doesn't change the fact that you place Giannis 12-16 yet have him ahead of Butler/Kawhi for every category brought up in the thread. Doesn't make sense.

Now Young Buck,

I introduce you the the concept of surplus value. Kawhi and Butler are very nice players, and create additonal revenue for their teams via jersey sales and marketing. however, Giannis is better at creating surplus value and I estimate him to be worth $300-$600million right now. See, we were making no movement on the stadium until BAE came a long and gave a reason for the Bucks not to move. He single-hanedly (well with the help of Scott Walker- thank you kind sir) kept the Bucks in Milwaukee and his legacy will be felt for generations on end.

The surplus value that Giannis has created allows me to over look the categories knowing that he is worth a few hundred million dollars.

Vee-Rex
12-02-2016, 10:30 PM
who feels like explaining to me why Giannis is blowing Leonard and Butler out of the water and D-BPM and DWS 18 games in? surly he's not riding the coat tails of a top five defense to do this, Milwaukee is mid pack in DTRG.

http://bkref.com/tiny/5MQhm

DWS is an estimate based on a bunch of factors that may be outside a player's control. Luck is one of those factors. DBPM is unreliable, especially with only 18 games. IMO, DBPM requires more than a year's worth of data to even be used carefully. Too many different factors impacts DBPM for it to be thrown around as a measuring stick. I suggest using it only to complement other stats, not as your backbone.

Defense is hard to measure in stats. IMO, the single best way to measure man-to-man defense is through SportVu tracking. It provides the average FG% at a specific point on the court and shows what that FG% is when a player is guarding others.

For example, Giannis, so far, is currently allowing guys he's guarding to shoot 38.7% from 3-point range, and their average is 34.2%. He's a +4.5 at the perimeter, which puts him below average defense at the perimeter.

Jimmy Butler is allowing guys he's guarding to shoot 32.7% when they normally shoot 36.1% from 3-point range. He's a -3.4 at the perimeter, putting him well above average defense at the perimeter.

Kawhi is bad all around so far this year in man-to-man defense. But 18 games is a short sample, so we'll have to let things play out.

As of right now, I'd say BAE is having the better defensive year between the 3 (it's close with him and Butler - he's defending the mid-range and interior better than Butler but Butler is defending the perimeter better). However, Kawhi and Butler have proven and excelled with these SportVu numbers in the past, so I'd give it more time and see. I would not call BAE a better defender just based off 18 games.

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 10:40 PM
DWS is an estimate based on a bunch of factors that may be outside a player's control. Luck is one of those factors. DBPM is unreliable, especially with only 18 games. IMO, DBPM requires more than a year's worth of data to even be used carefully. Too many different factors impacts DBPM for it to be thrown around as a measuring stick. I suggest using it only to complement other stats, not as your backbone.

Defense is hard to measure in stats. IMO, the single best way to measure man-to-man defense is through SportVu tracking. It provides the average FG% at a specific point on the court and shows what that FG% is when a player is guarding others.

For example, Giannis, so far, is currently allowing guys he's guarding to shoot 38.7% from 3-point range, and their average is 34.2%. He's a +4.5 at the perimeter, which puts him below average defense at the perimeter.

Jimmy Butler is allowing guys he's guarding to shoot 32.7% when they normally shoot 36.1% from 3-point range. He's a -3.4 at the perimeter, putting him well above average defense at the perimeter.

Kawhi is bad all around so far this year in man-to-man defense. But 18 games is a short sample, so we'll have to let things play out.

As of right now, I'd say BAE is having the better defensive year between the 3 (it's close with him and Butler - he's defending the mid-range and interior better than Butler but Butler is defending the perimeter better). However, Kawhi and Butler have proven and excelled with these SportVu numbers in the past, so I'd give it more time and see. I would not call BAE a better defender just based off 18 games.

Butler and Leonard can't consistently play defense at 5 different positions. BAE can. /thread.

kdspurman
12-02-2016, 10:40 PM
DWS is an estimate based on a bunch of factors that may be outside a player's control. Luck is one of those factors. DBPM is unreliable, especially with only 18 games. IMO, DBPM requires more than a year's worth of data to even be used carefully. Too many different factors impacts DBPM for it to be thrown around as a measuring stick. I suggest using it only to complement other stats, not as your backbone.

Defense is hard to measure in stats. IMO, the single best way to measure man-to-man defense is through SportVu tracking. It provides the average FG% at a specific point on the court and shows what that FG% is when a player is guarding others.

For example, Giannis, so far, is currently allowing guys he's guarding to shoot 38.7% from 3-point range, and their average is 34.2%. He's a +4.5 at the perimeter, which puts him below average defense at the perimeter.

Jimmy Butler is allowing guys he's guarding to shoot 32.7% when they normally shoot 36.1% from 3-point range. He's a -3.4 at the perimeter, putting him well above average defense at the perimeter.

Kawhi is bad all around so far this year in man-to-man defense But 18 games is a short sample, so we'll have to let things play out.

As of right now, I'd say BAE is having the better defensive year between the 3 (it's close with him and Butler - he's defending the mid-range and interior better than Butler but Butler is defending the perimeter better). However, Kawhi and Butler have proven and excelled with these SportVu numbers in the past, so I'd give it more time and see. I would not call BAE a better defender just based off 18 games.

I beg to differ there. He had a larger load to shoulder with Timmy gone and Green missing time early. He had far more ground to cover, but his man defense remained very good.

It's been a bit better overall with Green back however, and it should get even better as the season goes on. And as Pop plays Dedmon more than Pau :)

Raps18-19 Champ
12-02-2016, 10:42 PM
Defense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Offense:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Leadership:
1.) KL
2.) JB
3.) GA

Overall talent/skill/future (individual, not team):
1.) KL
2.) GA
3.) JB

Vee-Rex
12-02-2016, 10:48 PM
Butler and Leonard can't consistently play defense at 5 different positions. BAE can. /thread.

I don't think that's a great argument. BAE can play defense at 5 positions, does that mean he's a better defender than Ben Wallace was? Or Gary Payton? Or Michael Jordan? Or Scottie Pippen? Or Bill Russell?

Come on, lol.

Vee-Rex
12-02-2016, 10:54 PM
I beg to differ there. He had a larger load to shoulder with Timmy gone and Green missing time early. He had far more ground to cover, but his man defense remained very good.

It's been a bit better overall with Green back however, and it should get even better as the season goes on. And as Pop plays Dedmon more than Pau :)

The stats I specifically used don't measure how well he is defending off the ball, how well he's getting turnovers, or making his rotations, etc... so perhaps he's making up for it there? Not to mention that he could be defending super well but his guys just happen to be hitting shots on him so far. It's the NBA, sometimes you can defend perfectly and it still doesn't matter.

Either way, it's still a small sample size and there's a lot of context involved here (such as the things you listed). I still firmly have Kawhi as a better defender than the other 2 and it'll take a lot for my opinion to change on that matter.

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 11:08 PM
Giannis is going to go from underrated to overrated by the end of this thread.

I am going to make sure the bolded is true.

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 11:09 PM
I don't think that's a great argument. BAE can play defense at 5 positions, does that mean he's a better defender than Ben Wallace was? Or Gary Payton? Or Michael Jordan? Or Scottie Pippen? Or Bill Russell?

Come on, lol.

I mean, he has a what 7 ft 3 inch wing span? I would love to see him vs. Mj. He's shut most teams stars the past few years.

Vee-Rex
12-02-2016, 11:20 PM
I mean, he has a what 7 ft 3 inch wing span? I would love to see him vs. Mj. He's shut most teams stars the past few years.

As if MJ has never gone against good defenders with that kind of wing-span...

Might as well throw him out there to guard a prime Shaq too. He'd shut him down, right? :laugh2:

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 11:55 PM
Can't say unless Shaq or MJ come out of retirement. Amirite or amirite.

Vincent
12-03-2016, 07:12 AM
So your saying Giannis potential is hallow? Thank you for the chuckle. Giannis broke like 2 NBA records this year a couple last year. Still 21.

Potential is hallow in a discussion when you're making a comparison to players that have achieved (or even exceeded) their perspective potential.

Jimmy and Kawhi at this point are more polished and complete players compared to Giannis.

To constantly cite potential when you're making current state comparison arguments, is a bit hallow.

Bruno
12-06-2016, 05:27 PM
Potential is hallow in a discussion when you're making a comparison to players that have achieved (or even exceeded) their perspective potential.

Jimmy and Kawhi at this point are more polished and complete players compared to Giannis.

To constantly cite potential when you're making current state comparison arguments, is a bit hallow.

2014 called, it wants its Giannis opinion back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39gFH41haEo

futures now G.

kdspurman
12-06-2016, 06:50 PM
2014 called, it wants its Giannis opinion back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39gFH41haEo

futures now G.

I'm trying to figure out what that clip proves haha

Bruno
12-06-2016, 08:03 PM
I'm trying to figure out what that clip proves haha

haha, got ya bro.

Bruno
12-06-2016, 08:06 PM
trolling Spurs fans/the sell on Giannis crowd with poor arguments aside, Giannis is out performing Leonard in basically everything.

http://bkref.com/tiny/n0lDR

I hope you guys let me know when you find the sample size acceptable. January? February? Next year?

Shammyguy3
12-06-2016, 08:17 PM
Remember when Stephen Curry won the MVP back to back,yet floundered in the Finals? Because of that, there is still an argument that Lebron is the best player in the game. So until Giannis does this at least for a full season i will take what he does with a grain of salt. Also - Giannis is not a better man to man defender than Kawhi :shrug:

kdspurman
12-06-2016, 08:40 PM
trolling Spurs fans/the sell on Giannis crowd with poor arguments aside, Giannis is out performing Leonard in basically everything.

http://bkref.com/tiny/n0lDR

I hope you guys let me know when you find the sample size acceptable. January? February? Next year?

What I saw from him was a guy who's still pretty raw and makes questionable decisions.

He's got the talent and size, versatility, etc... all the tools, but he's still got some maturing to do. Last night was a perfect example , Kawhi was getting it done in crunch time, Giannis got himself in foul trouble and made a silly goaltending call to possibly cost his team the game.

Stats can say 1 thing, but Kawhi is still the better, more reliable and polished player imo; Defensively too, he's just much more disciplined. He's the only guy I think to have more steals than fouls. Giannis has the higher ceiling though if he keeps going in the right direction.

Redrum187
12-07-2016, 12:36 PM
PG: Giannis Antetokounmpo
SG: Kawhi Kawhi
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Anthony Davis
C: Kristaps Porzingis

That would be a fun team to watch! :D

Redrum187
12-07-2016, 12:38 PM
PG: Giannis Antetokounmpo
SG: Kawhi Kawhi
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Anthony Davis
C: Kristaps Porzingis

That would be a fun team to watch! :D

I guess I could put Paul George in for Kawhi's spot to make it the 6'10+ club.

cmellofan15
12-07-2016, 11:52 PM
1.) I am not a troll. 2.) My rankings were without bias. 3.) Giannis gets no love.

you are a troll. you have proven it time and time again by relentlessly sucking off giannis every time you post.

lmao yeah, I'm not believing anything you say is without bias because you are indeed a troll.

and is that your justification for intentionally bringing down the quality of this nba forum with your pointless posts?

Giannis94
12-08-2016, 12:33 PM
you are a troll. you have proven it time and time again by relentlessly sucking off giannis every time you post.

lmao yeah, I'm not believing anything you say is without bias because you are indeed a troll.

and is that your justification for intentionally bringing down the quality of this nba forum with your pointless posts?

Then in that case all Cavs fans that can't name the Browns starting QB are trolls then, and all Warriors fans that can't name 4 players off the Warriors 2006-2007 8 seed team that upset the Mavs are then trolls too. I am a die hard Bucks fan so SMFD. Oh and I do believe he is better than both players listed.