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nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 10:48 AM
These two are looking like the stars from the 2015 draft. Porzingis has been right there with Towns this year, better offensively, while Towns has had the edge in passing and rebounding. Who you got long term? The homer in me says KP, because he has more room to grow physically.

http://bkref.com/tiny/n0VjI

colinskik
11-23-2016, 10:56 AM
Here we go...

nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 10:57 AM
Here we go...

this looks like it could be the next KG vs Dirk... a decade + of debate...lol

colinskik
11-23-2016, 10:59 AM
I admittedly haven't watched Towns play all that much -- certainly not as much as I've seen KP play. But to Rican's point, we know where KP can improve, and the fact that he continually makes small in improvements in those areas is cause to believe he can shape up into one of the greats.

So my question for Wolves fans and those who actually have studied his game: What are the strengths to Towns game currently, and where can he improve his game?

colinskik
11-23-2016, 11:00 AM
this looks like it could be the next KG vs Dirk... a decade + of debate...lol

And who do you think was / is the better player? I still have trouble putting one above the other as far as talent, but Dirk is simply the more likable guy, so he gets my vote.

nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 11:02 AM
And who do you think was / is the better player? I still have trouble putting one above the other as far as talent, but Dirk is simply the more likable guy, so he gets my vote.

too close to call for me, but what Dirk did in 2011 was truly special.

KnicksorBust
11-23-2016, 11:54 AM
Did you consider including Embiid?

Hawkeye15
11-23-2016, 12:17 PM
I have only watched Porz once this year, Towns every game. On paper, they look very similar.

I think Towns has the potential to be a top 5 player for sure. They are in different situations, so I will reserve judgement for Porz until after I watch him more.

D-Leethal
11-23-2016, 12:22 PM
It's tough to gauge it with certainty until they are both "the man" on winning teams in their primes (assuming that happens - hoping it will). Right now KP is the Knicks best player but has a ton of star veteran help. He is benefitting from great PnR playmaking from Jennings, great ability to garner eyes and bodies of the D from Rose/Melo. Towns is the Wolves best player but he's on a team with a bunch of NBA pre-K talent (years not skills) so all eyes are on him every night. The guys around you have a major impact on your stats and your wins so until the guys around them are comparable it's tough to say who's better.

Let us all just pray these two stay relatively injury free and have long careers to compare.

D-Leethal
11-23-2016, 12:25 PM
I will say after seeing D. Russell basically be scared to play next to Kobe it's very impressive how Porzingis came into NYC under a sea of boo's, into Melo's town after the media did their best to create a rift, and basically said **** y'all I'm a beast give me the ball let me work and at age 21 has made himself the best player on the squad and the apple of NY's eye.

LongIslandIcedZ
11-23-2016, 12:57 PM
Towns, but Porzingis is a hell of a consolation prize for not getting the number 1 pick.

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warfelg
11-23-2016, 01:08 PM
For now:
Towns.

Because Towns handles the in the paint stuff better than Porzingas right now. Porz needs to add some weight and get a coach that works with bigs to give him an elite back to basket game. At 7'3" if he can learn the Ewing baby hook....**** there might be only one singular guy in the NBA that has a chance of stopping it. And that's a certain #21 just a few hours down the 95.

nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 01:12 PM
For now:
Towns.

Because Towns handles the in the paint stuff better than Porzingas right now. Porz needs to add some weight and get a coach that works with bigs to give him an elite back to basket game. At 7'3" if he can learn the Ewing baby hook....**** there might be only one singular guy in the NBA that has a chance of stopping it. And that's a certain #21 just a few hours down the 95.

Towns definitely has more of an inside game, which I think also helps his rebounding advantage. but KP has really improved near the rim. Last year he would rush shots in the paint and just didn't go up strong. but this year he is shooting 75% from 0-3 feet, compared to 58% last year.

KP has a TS of 61% despite not even getting to the FT all that much.

warfelg
11-23-2016, 01:16 PM
Towns definitely has more of an inside game, which I think also helps his rebounding advantage. but KP has really improved near the rim. Last year he would rush shots in the paint and just didn't go up strong. but this year he is shooting 75% from 0-3 feet, compared to 58% last year.

KP has a TS of 61% despite not even getting to the FT all that much.

I think he would get more calls with a full on back to basket game.

I'll be honest that I haven't see him much this year.

But the same thing that makes Embiid scary makes Porzingis potentially just as scary. Tall, long, athletic (for the size), outside touch, defensive awareness. If Porz adds that inside game and becomes unpredictable I can't wait to see these two have a chess match for a decade plus.

nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 01:17 PM
KP shouldnt add too much weight tho, that's not his game, he's a perimeter guy like Dirk with a bit more of an inside game. you don't want guys that are over 7'0 feet to carry too much weight, that really takes a toll on their feet.

He needs to get stronger but you can do that without bulking up too much.

SeoulBeatz
11-23-2016, 01:18 PM
I've seen them both play an equal amount but I think the edge goes to Towns. He is just such a gifted/polished player with even more room to grow.

That said, KP is still a franchise talent and could surpass Towns if he reaches his potential. Once Melo leaves town and KP can take the reigns I think he's really going to light it up with multiple All-Star appearances in his future.

So I guess the ceiling edge goes to KP, but I think Towns is (and will continue to be) the better player.

warfelg
11-23-2016, 01:19 PM
KP shouldnt add too much weight tho, that's not his game, he's a perimeter guy like Dirk with a bit more of an inside game. you don't want guys that are over 7'0 feet to carry too much weight, that really takes a toll on their feet.

He needs to get stronger but you can do that without bulking up too much.

Yea more strength than size. My bad.

nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 01:19 PM
I think he would get more calls with a full on back to basket game.

I'll be honest that I haven't see him much this year.

But the same thing that makes Embiid scary makes Porzingis potentially just as scary. Tall, long, athletic (for the size), outside touch, defensive awareness. If Porz adds that inside game and becomes unpredictable I can't wait to see these two have a chess match for a decade plus.

he's def improved in the post this year, but he has alot of room to improve in that area. too often he takes fadeaways against guys that are much shorter than him. He needs to learn to use that height advantage better. but he's improved so much in just 1 year, i have no doubt he'll figure it out. kid works hard and has a great ethic.

Heediot
11-23-2016, 01:30 PM
KP shouldnt add too much weight tho, that's not his game, he's a perimeter guy like Dirk with a bit more of an inside game. you don't want guys that are over 7'0 feet to carry too much weight, that really takes a toll on their feet.

He needs to get stronger but you can do that without bulking up too much.

Defensively bulk helps (especially a strong lower/body and base) with defending guys backing you down. Towns also has issues and he gets pushed around down low, Porzingis I'm guessing would get pushed around more-so. But having length does help alter and block shots, so Porz has that gong for him.

I think adding weight is good for a big defensively if they can maintain their mobility. The pre draft reports for Jonas vs. Marc Gasol is a good example. Jonas came in thinner and his mobility was considered an asset, whereas Marc came in over-weight and the reports on his mobility was alarming. Look at them today and as Marc lost weight he has become far more mobile and as Jonas added weight it hinders his ability to switch and defend the PNR. The Raps thought it was a good idea for him to bulk up to defend the post, they asked him to lose some this year but his mobility is has a lot more to be desired.

I think it's a delicate balance when adding or losing weight whether it hinders your strength and or mobility.

Back to OP I would take Towns over Porzingis personally. Just watching him in the skills challenge last year and as a Canadian following Wiggins a bit, the guy is just so smooth and skilled for a big man. They both have a ways to go but I like Towns foundation and upside better, that's just me.

PurpleLynch
11-23-2016, 01:49 PM
Time will tell,but right now Towns. Honestly,they both have too much room to develop and that's the reason I can't make a complete evaluation. Towns is more polished on more aspects of the game and he's the first option on both ends of the floor for the T'Wolves. Porzingis has still to learn how to defend in the Nba and use his size to his advantage.

xxplayerxx23
11-23-2016, 05:54 PM
For now:
Towns.

Because Towns handles the in the paint stuff better than Porzingas right now. Porz needs to add some weight and get a coach that works with bigs to give him an elite back to basket game. At 7'3" if he can learn the Ewing baby hook....**** there might be only one singular guy in the NBA that has a chance of stopping it. And that's a certain #21 just a few hours down the 95.


His back to the basket game has improved big time from last year

jimm120
11-23-2016, 07:30 PM
Towns is a DEFINITE future top 10 talent.
Porzingis is someone that could be top 5, but can also be top 30.

So, Porzingis could have a higher peak, but at the same time can easily be a 10-25 player while Towns can be around 5-10 assured.

That said, the growth in Porzingis has been astonishing. I expected 17ppg. Going for 21ppg was not in my mind at all

nycericanguy
11-23-2016, 07:37 PM
Towns is a DEFINITE future top 10 talent.
Porzingis is someone that could be top 5, but can also be top 30.

So, Porzingis could have a higher peak, but at the same time can easily be a 10-25 player while Towns can be around 5-10 assured.

That said, the growth in Porzingis has been astonishing. I expected 17ppg. Going for 21ppg was not in my mind at all

I think he might just be top 20 already...

I don't get why some people think Towns is on a whole nother level, he was definitely more NBA ready last year, especially physically, but KP is really closing the gap. But I think people are starting to realize it's actually pretty close between the two.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2016, 08:44 PM
Towns... Porz is heating up though... Both have a ton of help around them in a melo/wiggins.


I will say this... Porz doing what he is doing is hella impressive when you are basically covering up for one of the worst players in basketball in rose.

ball4reel
11-23-2016, 09:41 PM
How is Rose one of the worst players in basketball? He has been doing pretty well these last 3-4 games. Him and Jennings are a real problem when there playing together

zn23
11-23-2016, 10:16 PM
Towns is currently the better, more complete player. But Porzingis has better upside and could surpass him in a couple years if he doesn't get injured.

Crackadalic
11-24-2016, 01:55 AM
As bad as kp defense started he's already a bit better then towns on that end already. Kid really pick up his defense fast

KAT right now is the better all around offensive player. Kid is special

KP is definitely closing the gap now unlike last year when KAT was clearly better then KP. When they said KP had a Kobe like work ethic they wasn't kidding

Aust
11-24-2016, 02:07 AM
Towns.

atarisound
11-24-2016, 02:34 AM
can someone please explain to me what the +/- means in the box scores of every basketball game, next to the players names? I'm not really huge into basketball but very curious. Please don't roast me on this haha

Aust
11-24-2016, 02:37 AM
can someone please explain to me what the +/- means in the box scores of every basketball game, next to the players names? I'm not really huge into basketball but very curious. Please don't roast me on this haha

How the team scored when they were in and out.


Plus/minus began as a hockey metric, and has been kept as an official NHL statistic since 1968. Around 2003, Roland Beech of 82games.com brought this concept to NBA basketball...and a few years after that, the league made +/- a part of it's official boxscore statistics.

Interestingly, this metric is much more meaningful in basketball than it is in hockey, even though it took much longer for the NBA to begin using it. The more scoring there is in a game, the more useful this statistic becomes. Plus/minus is a useful way to determine a player's value to his team, because it encompasses everything a player does on the basketball floor, even things the NBA doesn't keep official statistics on.

An example of Plus/minus is as follows: let's say a player's team was 7.5 points better than their opponents when he was in the game (+7.5). When our player was not in the game, however, the team was 3.3 points worse than their opponents (-3.3). To find this player's +/- rating, you simply take the difference of the two numbers, which yields a rating of +10.8.

europagnpilgrim
11-24-2016, 03:55 AM
Haven't watched much of either player but from the small sample size I would give the edge to Towns in long term if both are fairly healthy, he jumped off the screen more and seems more franchise material with a legit inside and outside game and being a footer, Porz seems more of a project who can come around while Towns was nba ready, more so than Porz

I tend to lean more toward sure franchise game changers when building a team and Towns fits that bill more but I think they both will be good for current teams going forward

as for the Dirk/KG type comparison I would take KG all day, flip teams I think he would have Dallas in more nba/wcf appearances with the talent Cuban would keep around in the cupboard

people always forget when ranking the truly best/dominant players you have to look at the overall talent around those players and who were truly built to win or make deep postseason runs, those who are truly the best/dominant can take a lesser squad and make a deep run, maybe not consistently like more stacked title contenders but will show it just to let you know how dominant they truly are

KG did more with less than Dirk while Dirk outside of 11' season was coming up short, especially in that 06' finals and I think in 07' when they got mopped by the Warriors after winning almost 70 games, Dirk is damn good don't get me wrong but KG was special

GiantsSwaGG
11-24-2016, 09:09 AM
Haven't watched much of either player but from the small sample size I would give the edge to Towns in long term if both are fairly healthy, he jumped off the screen more and seems more franchise material with a legit inside and outside game and being a footer, Porz seems more of a project who can come around while Towns was nba ready, more so than Porz

I tend to lean more toward sure franchise game changers when building a team and Towns fits that bill more but I think they both will be good for current teams going forward

as for the Dirk/KG type comparison I would take KG all day, flip teams I think he would have Dallas in more nba/wcf appearances with the talent Cuban would keep around in the cupboard

people always forget when ranking the truly best/dominant players you have to look at the overall talent around those players and who were truly built to win or make deep postseason runs, those who are truly the best/dominant can take a lesser squad and make a deep run, maybe not consistently like more stacked title contenders but will show it just to let you know how dominant they truly are

KG did more with less than Dirk while Dirk outside of 11' season was coming up short, especially in that 06' finals and I think in 07' when they got mopped by the Warriors after winning almost 70 games, Dirk is damn good don't get me wrong but KG was special


KG did more with less?

The only time KG went to WCF is when he had Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell, other than that they were 1st round exits every year.

IndyRealist
11-24-2016, 10:21 AM
I think he might just be top 20 already...

I don't get why some people think Towns is on a whole nother level, he was definitely more NBA ready last year, especially physically, but KP is really closing the gap. But I think people are starting to realize it's actually pretty close between the two.
KP took a massive leap forward in scoring ability, he's much more efficient and taking slightly more shots than last year.

However, he's regressed compared to last year in rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. And aside from blocks, he's below average in all of those categories for a big man.

Top 20 is a huge stretch.

nycericanguy
11-24-2016, 10:30 AM
KP took a massive leap forward in scoring ability, he's much more efficient and taking slightly more shots than last year.

However, he's regressed compared to last year in rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. And aside from blocks, he's below average in all of those categories for a big man.

Top 20 is a huge stretch.

His rebounding has been fine, he's playing PF alongside Melo & Noah who are two very good rebounders for their positions. And his game is perimeter based mostly, so he's just not in position to grab a ton of boards.

I think you're looking way too much into minute differences in assists and steals early in the year... that's not his game, nor is it what he's asked to do.

What he is asked to do though he's done so at elite levels. And even though his blocks are down he is still protection the rim. Knicks are top 6 in defending shots 0-3 feet.

But anyway, how is top 20 a "huge stretch"?. He's arguably been the best PF in the east, if he keeps this up you'd be hard pressed to name 20 better players, especially considering his defense which after a rocky start has been great lately.

I said before the year he had a chance to become a top 20 player this year and i'd say he's well on his way. 21 & 7, 61% TS, leading the team in three's made and blocks...and a two way player. that's unheard of.

ewing
11-24-2016, 11:09 AM
I think Towns is more well rounded right now. I haven't seen him a lot but he seems to have that sound game that will show every night. B/c of how slight he is and b/c his offesnive game is developing KP doesn't have that yet. What makes KP have the potential to be super special is the fact that he is a shot maker. Two/Threes times a game KP will make an impossible shot and it is different shots all the time. with his size he will get dunks and open 3s, if he can get stronger he will be able to have a better solid all around game like Towns, I don't think Towns can be unguardable like a Kobe. I think KP can. Thats a ceiling and down the road but its why i think he has a higher ceiling.

IndyRealist
11-24-2016, 11:13 AM
His rebounding has been fine, he's playing PF alongside Melo & Noah who are two very good rebounders for their positions. And his game is perimeter based mostly, so he's just not in position to grab a ton of boards.

I think you're looking way too much into minute differences in assists and steals early in the year... that's not his game, nor is it what he's asked to do.

What he is asked to do though he's done so at elite levels. And even though his blocks are down he is still protection the rim. Knicks are top 6 in defending shots 0-3 feet.

But anyway, how is top 20 a "huge stretch"?. He's arguably been the best PF in the east, if he keeps this up you'd be hard pressed to name 20 better players, especially considering his defense which after a rocky start has been great lately.

I said before the year he had a chance to become a top 20 player this year and i'd say he's well on his way. 21 & 7, 61% TS, leading the team in three's made and blocks...and a two way player. that's unheard of.

As opposed to looking at a massive leap in shooting efficiency early in the year? We accept one as improvement, but the other is just a small sample size outlier? C'mon.

ewing
11-24-2016, 11:14 AM
KG did more with less?

The only time KG went to WCF is when he had Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell, other than that they were 1st round exits every year.


but KG was was so big in the playoffs. errr.....

nycericanguy
11-24-2016, 11:22 AM
As opposed to looking at a massive leap in shooting efficiency early in the year? We accept one as improvement, but the other is just a small sample size outlier? C'mon.

Umm yes! that's the whole point!

You're talking about 1.1 apg vs 1.3.

I'm talking about 21ppg vs 14, and 50% shooting vs 42%.

Regardless, my point was he's probably already been a top 20 player this year SO FAR... if you want to argue that that could change and its early, fine... but im talking AS OF NOW. And as of now its silly to say that's top 20 is a "huge reach"... he might have a case for top 15 AS OF NOW.

ewing
11-24-2016, 11:23 AM
As opposed to looking at a massive leap in shooting efficiency early in the year? We accept one as improvement, but the other is just a small sample size outlier? C'mon.

how about will actually look at the style of play while looking at the stats. KP is starting his offensive from the perimeter much more often this year. Last year especially at the start of the season KP was being groomed to be more of an interior player at both ends. While his offensive game has improved i think part of his increased effiencey is do playing a style he is more accustomed too and playing. The team is also playing at a faster pace which is lends itself to KP not being bodied out of position and catching mismatches. On the other end, KP has been asked to defend on the perimiter more as well. The other night Jeff matched him up with Evan Turner for a long stench. This maybe effecting his rebound #s. The lose of Lopez certainly is imo. Robin was a great space eater and allowed other guys to bound. If you look i am sure teams have always rebounded well with him on the floor despite him not having great rebounding #s. rebounding #s can be misleading. KP needs to find the right mix on inside out. I think last year they forced him in a little too much. the big thing to watch is weather or not KP hits the wall again. Prior to last year he had never played anything close to 82 games. He lost a lot weight during the season and flat ran out of gas at times. If KP can keep his motor up I don't see his offense suffering. defensively i'd like for him to be a little stronger around the basket but i think with his body type and strange skill set he is bit more of a question mark there. He certainly has tools that can be used at both ends though. Lastly i don't give a **** about his assist #s unless teams start running doubles on the catch. Its our guards job to get him catches in scoring position.

ewing
11-24-2016, 11:32 AM
Umm yes! that's the whole point!

You're talking about 1.1 apg vs 1.3.

I'm talking about 21ppg vs 14, and 50% shooting vs 42%.

Regardless, my point was he's probably already been a top 20 player this year SO FAR... if you want to argue that that could change and its early, fine... but im talking AS OF NOW. And as of now its silly to say that's top 20 is a "huge reach"... he might have a case for top 15 AS OF NOW.


its all about KP's assists

nycericanguy
11-24-2016, 11:37 AM
its all about KP's assists

Towns has really regressed too, i mean his blocks, steals, rebounds, & FG% are all down ever so slightly!

ewing
11-24-2016, 11:39 AM
Towns has really regressed too, i mean his blocks, steals, rebounds, & FG% are all down ever so slightly!

If KP doesn't know how to keep his dribble and wait for that pocket pass to open up off the screen roll he is trash. Thats what being 7'3 is all about

IndyRealist
11-24-2016, 12:01 PM
Umm yes! that's the whole point!

You're talking about 1.1 apg vs 1.3.

I'm talking about 21ppg vs 14, and 50% shooting vs 42%.

Regardless, my point was he's probably already been a top 20 player this year SO FAR... if you want to argue that that could change and its early, fine... but im talking AS OF NOW. And as of now its silly to say that's top 20 is a "huge reach"... he might have a case for top 15 AS OF NOW.

I'm not talking about 1.3apg vs 1.1apg. I'm talking about a 24% decline in his assist rate. I'm talking about a 53% decline in his block rate.

AS OF NOW he's a better shooter than last year but worse at just about everything else. AS OF NOW Lebron, Curry, Kyrie Irving, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Hassan Whiteside, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Rudy Gobert, Kawhi Leonard, Russell Westbrook, Mike Conley, Giannis, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, DeAndre Jordan, Drummond, Paul George, Draymond Green, and Damian Lillard are unquestionably better players JUST THIS YEAR and that's 20+ not even trying. That's just the list people don't even have a problem comparing. I could also throw out guys like George Hill, Otto Porter Jr, Greg Monroe, MKG, JJ Reddick, Kevin Love, KAT, Isaiah Thomas who are performing fantastic in this short time frame.

And if we're comparing and KP is a top 20 player RIGHT NOW, then Myles Turner is too.
KP vs MT
Net Rating +11 vs +11
TS% 60.5% vs 60.6%
Per36 Points 23.0 vs 18.0
Per36 Rebounds 8.0 vs 9.1
Per36 Assists 1.2 vs 1.1
Per36 Blocks 1.2 vs 2.9
Per36 Steals 0.8 vs 1.3

nycericanguy
11-24-2016, 12:08 PM
I'm not talking about 1.3apg vs 1.1apg. I'm talking about a 24% decline in his assist rate. I'm talking about a 53% decline in his block rate.

AS OF NOW he's a better shooter than last year but worse at just about everything else. AS OF NOW Lebron, Curry, Kyrie Irving, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Hassan Whiteside, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Rudy Gobert, Kawhi Leonard, Russell Westbrook, Mike Conley, Giannis, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, DeAndre Jordan, Drummond, Paul George, Draymond Green, and Damian Lillard are unquestionably better players JUST THIS YEAR and that's 20+ not even trying. That's just the list people don't even have a problem comparing. I could also throw out guys like George Hill, Otto Porter Jr, Greg Monroe, MKG, JJ Reddick, Kevin Love, KAT, Isaiah Thomas who are performing fantastic in this short time frame.

And if we're comparing and KP is a top 20 player RIGHT NOW, then Myles Turner is too.
KP vs MT
Net Rating +11 vs +11
TS% 60.5% vs 60.6%
Per36 Points 23.0 vs 18.0
Per36 Rebounds 8.0 vs 9.1
Per36 Assists 1.2 vs 1.1
Per36 Blocks 1.2 vs 2.9
Per36 Steals 0.8 vs 1.3

I'm going to assume you are trolling since you just said Greg Monroe, MKG, Porter and Reddick are even in the convo.

and the "unquestionably better players this year" list....lol. I think the bolded are definitely VERY questionable.

IndyRealist
11-24-2016, 12:12 PM
how about will actually look at the style of play while looking at the stats. KP is starting his offensive from the perimeter much more often this year. Last year especially at the start of the season KP was being groomed to be more of an interior player at both ends. While his offensive game has improved i think part of his increased effiencey is do playing a style he is more accustomed too and playing. The team is also playing at a faster pace which is lends itself to KP not being bodied out of position and catching mismatches. On the other end, KP has been asked to defend on the perimiter more as well. The other night Jeff matched him up with Evan Turner for a long stench. This maybe effecting his rebound #s. The lose of Lopez certainly is imo. Robin was a great space eater and allowed other guys to bound. If you look i am sure teams have always rebounded well with him on the floor despite him not having great rebounding #s. rebounding #s can be misleading. KP needs to find the right mix on inside out. I think last year they forced him in a little too much. the big thing to watch is weather or not KP hits the wall again. Prior to last year he had never played anything close to 82 games. He lost a lot weight during the season and flat ran out of gas at times. If KP can keep his motor up I don't see his offense suffering. defensively i'd like for him to be a little stronger around the basket but i think with his body type and strange skill set he is bit more of a question mark there. He certainly has tools that can be used at both ends though. Lastly i don't give a **** about his assist #s unless teams start running doubles on the catch. Its our guards job to get him catches in scoring position.

I don't deny he's playing better. What I said was that if you accept that this small sample size is valid for his shooting, then it's valid for everything else too. And he's regressed in most everything aside from shooting.

ewing
11-24-2016, 12:14 PM
I don't deny he's playing better. What I said was that if you accept that this small sample size is valid for his shooting, then it's valid for everything else too. And he's regressed in most everything aside from shooting.

Again context matters and it is contributing both to his increased scoring and decreased rebounding at this point. I would like him to pick up the rebounding a lttle. As far as the blocks go, he is learning to stay out of foul troulbe and being ask to defend away from the basket a lot more. You get more blocks in the paint. you seem to be looking at the stats without any perspective. Either they are representive or they are not. It isn't that clear cut. Again, KP's gas tank is the thing to watch


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ewing
11-24-2016, 12:21 PM
I'm not talking about 1.3apg vs 1.1apg. I'm talking about a 24% decline in his assist rate. I'm talking about a 53% decline in his block rate.

AS OF NOW he's a better shooter than last year but worse at just about everything else. AS OF NOW Lebron, Curry, Kyrie Irving, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Hassan Whiteside, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Rudy Gobert, Kawhi Leonard, Russell Westbrook, Mike Conley, Giannis, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, DeAndre Jordan, Drummond, Paul George, Draymond Green, and Damian Lillard are unquestionably better players JUST THIS YEAR and that's 20+ not even trying. That's just the list people don't even have a problem comparing. I could also throw out guys like George Hill, Otto Porter Jr, Greg Monroe, MKG, JJ Reddick, Kevin Love, KAT, Isaiah Thomas who are performing fantastic in this short time frame.

And if we're comparing and KP is a top 20 player RIGHT NOW, then Myles Turner is too.
KP vs MT
Net Rating +11 vs +11
TS% 60.5% vs 60.6%
Per36 Points 23.0 vs 18.0
Per36 Rebounds 8.0 vs 9.1
Per36 Assists 1.2 vs 1.1
Per36 Blocks 1.2 vs 2.9
Per36 Steals 0.8 vs 1.3

you're a robot

IndyRealist
11-24-2016, 12:24 PM
I'm going to assume you are trolling since you just said Greg Monroe, MKG, Porter and Reddick are even in the convo.

and the "unquestionably better players this year" list....lol. I think the bolded are definitely VERY questionable.

Greg Monroe
Off Rating 112, Def Rating 97, Net Rating +15
Per 36 17.2pts, 13.0reb, 4.8ast, 2.6stl, 1.2blk
54% TS

Otto Porter
Off Rating 123, Def Rating 106, Net Rating +17
Per36 15.1pts, 8.6rebs, 1.6asts, 1.8stls, 0.7blk
57.8% TS

JJ Reddick
Off Rating 116, Def Rating 104, Net Rating +12
Per36 28.7pts, 3.6rebs, 2.0asts, 1.9stils, 0.4blk
64.9% TS

And just to finish, because this is getting long:
Dwight Howard
Off Rating 114, Def Rating 92, Net Rating +22
Per36 25.3pts, 22.8rebs, 2.0asts, 2.2stls, 2.9blk
60.8% TS

Dwight LITERALLY does everything better than KP statistically, including scoring, and you think it's questionable?
You really need to get out and watch other teams. Dwight is DESTROYING teams THIS YEAR.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving Knicks fans. Not trying to rain on your parade. I'm gonna go eat some turkey.

nycericanguy
11-24-2016, 12:25 PM
Greg Monroe
Off Rating 112, Def Rating 97, Net Rating +15
Per 36 17.2pts, 13.0reb, 4.8ast, 2.6stl, 1.2blk
54% TS

Otto Porter
Off Rating 123, Def Rating 106, Net Rating +17
Per36 15.1pts, 8.6rebs, 1.6asts, 1.8stls, 0.7blk
57.8% TS

JJ Reddick
Off Rating 116, Def Rating 104, Net Rating +12
Per36 28.7pts, 3.6rebs, 2.0asts, 1.9stils, 0.4blk
64.9% TS

And just to finish, because this is getting long:
Dwight Howard
Off Rating 114, Def Rating 92, Net Rating +22
Per36 25.3pts, 22.8rebs, 2.0asts, 2.2stls, 2.9blk
60.8% TS

Dwight LITERALLY does everything better than KP statistically, including scoring, and you think it's questionable?
You really need to get out and watch other teams. Dwight is DESTROYING teams THIS YEAR.

you're right, Greg Monroe has been better than KP this year. You WIN. Happy Thanksgiving.

ewing
11-24-2016, 01:22 PM
Greg Monroe
Off Rating 112, Def Rating 97, Net Rating +15
Per 36 17.2pts, 13.0reb, 4.8ast, 2.6stl, 1.2blk
54% TS

Otto Porter
Off Rating 123, Def Rating 106, Net Rating +17
Per36 15.1pts, 8.6rebs, 1.6asts, 1.8stls, 0.7blk
57.8% TS

JJ Reddick
Off Rating 116, Def Rating 104, Net Rating +12
Per36 28.7pts, 3.6rebs, 2.0asts, 1.9stils, 0.4blk
64.9% TS

And just to finish, because this is getting long:
Dwight Howard
Off Rating 114, Def Rating 92, Net Rating +22
Per36 25.3pts, 22.8rebs, 2.0asts, 2.2stls, 2.9blk
60.8% TS

Dwight LITERALLY does everything better than KP statistically, including scoring, and you think it's questionable?
You really need to get out and watch other teams. Dwight is DESTROYING teams THIS YEAR.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving Knicks fans. Not trying to rain on your parade. I'm gonna go eat some turkey.


Did Jose Calderon finish the year the knick's best player or was that only mid season?

D-Leethal
11-24-2016, 04:15 PM
lol. Guppyfighter is reincarnated into IndyRealist.

This is hoops not statistics class. At least half of those dudes you just named are laughable to put on par with KP. Blind net rating does nothing to tell you if player X is better than player Y.

D-Leethal
11-24-2016, 04:21 PM
KP was drafted to be a Dirk-like scorer. A massive leap in his scoring numbers + efficiency is infinitely more important than his ****ing assist and steal numbers. Dude is 7' ****ing 3. Sheesh.

Chronz
11-24-2016, 04:51 PM
lol. Guppyfighter is reincarnated into IndyRealist.

This is hoops not statistics class. At least half of those dudes you just named are laughable to put on par with KP. Blind net rating does nothing to tell you if player X is better than player Y.

Ran into guppy fighter a few days ago. Says hi

IndyRealist
11-24-2016, 11:29 PM
lol. Guppyfighter is reincarnated into IndyRealist.

This is hoops not statistics class. At least half of those dudes you just named are laughable to put on par with KP. Blind net rating does nothing to tell you if player X is better than player Y.

That's the laughable statement, considering the majority of the guys I mentioned are max contract players and all-stars. If you think "at least half" don't belong in the convo with KP -this year- then you're saying he'd be deserving of a max deal and an all-star appearance, right now. Not based on his ceiling, or potential, or future projections, but on what he's produced through 14 games. Again, if KP is a top 20 player right now, then so is Myles Turner.

Migueldadon
11-25-2016, 02:44 AM
KP shouldnt add too much weight tho, that's not his game, he's a perimeter guy like Dirk with a bit more of an inside game. you don't want guys that are over 7'0 feet to carry too much weight, that really takes a toll on their feet.

He needs to get stronger but you can do that without bulking up too much.

I agree about the weight issue, he'll naturally get stronger as he gets older. Towns looks the better player now but KP has the potential to be as good. He's better on the perimeter and I feel he could become the better defender in time thanks to his length

ewing
11-25-2016, 12:30 PM
That's the laughable statement, considering the majority of the guys I mentioned are max contract players and all-stars. If you think "at least half" don't belong in the convo with KP -this year- then you're saying he'd be deserving of a max deal and an all-star appearance, right now. Not based on his ceiling, or potential, or future projections, but on what he's produced through 14 games. Again, if KP is a top 20 player right now, then so is Myles Turner.

Seriously did Calderon finish as the knicks best player?

KnicksorBust
11-25-2016, 01:16 PM
Here we go...

this looks like it could be the next KG vs Dirk... a decade + of debate...lol

Who won that debate?

BKLYNpigeon
11-25-2016, 01:23 PM
rather have embiid.

Towns and Porzingis are soft.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2016, 01:23 PM
lol. Guppyfighter is reincarnated into IndyRealist.

This is hoops not statistics class. At least half of those dudes you just named are laughable to put on par with KP. Blind net rating does nothing to tell you if player X is better than player Y.

That's the laughable statement, considering the majority of the guys I mentioned are max contract players and all-stars. If you think "at least half" don't belong in the convo with KP -this year- then you're saying he'd be deserving of a max deal and an all-star appearance, right now. Not based on his ceiling, or potential, or future projections, but on what he's produced through 14 games. Again, if KP is a top 20 player right now, then so is Myles Turner.

I would accept Dwight but even you know you are trolling when you bring up JJ.

mrblisterdundee
11-25-2016, 01:24 PM
It's neck and neck, but Towns still has a slight edge right now. It's crazy how close they are statistically per 36 minutes, according to Basketball-Reference.com:
• Porzingis: 23 points, 50 percent shooting, 8 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 1.2 assists, 0.8 steals, 2.3 threes, 39 percent shooting, 3.6 free throws, 78 percent shooting
• Towns: 22 points, 50 percent shooting, 9.7 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, 2.5 assists, 0.7 steals, 1.7 threes, 42.6 percent shooting, 2.9 free throws, 71 percent shooting
Porzingis is slightly better offensively, but Towns is still the more well-rounded player. If given the choice between the two, I'm certain almost ever general manager would take Towns, whether they need a center or a power forward.
On a related note, I think Porzingis will take off even more if the Knicks make him the starting center. Put Noah on more of a bench role, that defense guy you bring in when you need a stop.

ewing
11-25-2016, 01:26 PM
Who won that debate?

Dirk destroyed him

KnicksorBust
11-25-2016, 01:31 PM
Who won that debate?

Dirk destroyed him

Damn and we got the 2.0 version. It is a wrap son.. fade away Bron your time has passed.

nycericanguy
11-25-2016, 01:47 PM
It's neck and neck, but Towns still has a slight edge right now. It's crazy how close they are statistically per 36 minutes, according to Basketball-Reference.com:
• Porzingis: 23 points, 50 percent shooting, 8 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 1.2 assists, 0.8 steals, 2.3 threes, 39 percent shooting, 3.6 free throws, 78 percent shooting
• Towns: 22 points, 50 percent shooting, 9.7 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, 2.5 assists, 0.7 steals, 1.7 threes, 42.6 percent shooting, 2.9 free throws, 71 percent shooting
Porzingis is slightly better offensively, but Towns is still the more well-rounded player. If given the choice between the two, I'm certain almost ever general manager would take Towns, whether they need a center or a power forward.
On a related note, I think Porzingis will take off even more if the Knicks make him the starting center. Put Noah on more of a bench role, that defense guy you bring in when you need a stop.

its very close now. KP has really closed the gap this year which is incredible since he's always been looked at as more of a project than Towns.

What's really incredible to me is that he's doing it in NY. No knock on Towns but he's on a young team that isn't expected to win right now, in a very laid back city.

KP is doing this under the NY media microscope and on a veteran team that will be looked at a massive failure if they miss the playoffs. He has that "IT" factor to handle NY and the pressure, and the work ethic to go along with it. Not to say that Towns doesn't.

mngopher35
11-25-2016, 01:52 PM
Towns has been a little disappointing to me this season, I was expecting a bigger step forward tbh. I have only seen a couple Knicks games but given the skill set from last year and what looks like an improved scoring game (both totals and efficiency) it appears KP made that jump and closed the gap between them.

nycericanguy
11-25-2016, 01:56 PM
Towns has been a little disappointing to me this season, I was expecting a bigger step forward tbh. I have only seen a couple Knicks games but given the skill set from last year and what looks like an improved scoring game (both totals and efficiency) it appears KP made that jump and closed the gap between them.

I made this point during the offseason, Towns even though extremely young, was already much more NBA ready, especially physically. So I don't think you can expect such a huge leap in year two. Not saying he can't improve because obviously he has and probably will alot more, but he's closer to his ceiling than KP IMO.

That being said, Towns has made a pretty decent leap himself this year.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2016, 01:58 PM
Towns has been a little disappointing to me this season, I was expecting a bigger step forward tbh. I have only seen a couple Knicks games but given the skill set from last year and what looks like an improved scoring game (both totals and efficiency) it appears KP made that jump and closed the gap between them.

I am not overly happy with any of our 3 young guys, and their "me-first" play to begin this year.

mngopher35
11-25-2016, 02:06 PM
I made this point during the offseason, Towns even though extremely young, was already much more NBA ready, especially physically. So I don't think you can expect such a huge leap in year two. Not saying he can't improve because obviously he has and probably will alot more, but he's closer to his ceiling than KP IMO.

That being said, Towns has made a pretty decent leap himself this year.

I think Towns has lots of defensive potential and that is where the step forward I expected doesn't appear to have taken place. I also think he has potential as a playmaker once he gets more comfortable in the league and can settle down a little (although don't expect him to become that force quite yet). KP might have a bit more potential because he started behind physically but Towns still has plenty of room to grow and I expected him to under Thibs. I like that he worked on the 3 ball and is getting way more of his shots from there or inside of 3 feet this year but his impact on the game isn't majorly different this year which is disappointing.

mngopher35
11-25-2016, 02:13 PM
I am not overly happy with any of our 3 young guys, and their "me-first" play to begin this year.

Ya I have been a bit busy to this point and haven't been posting too much but it has been a rough start. I am not worried about them or anything because they clearly have skills/talent but it might take a little longer than I initially thought for us to get going and them to learn how to win in the NBA. My hope is that later in the season we see a step forward defensively once everyone really gets comfortable and learns how to play team defense for a full 48. That would be huge for our progression.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2016, 03:46 PM
Towns is going to make a ton of all-star teams. Will be all-nba. And might even win an MVP. Which puts him far below what Porzingis will accomplish. Sorry Timberwolve fans.

IndyRealist
11-26-2016, 11:26 PM
Seriously did Calderon finish as the knicks best player?

That would be Lopez by a fair margin over the entire season.

nycericanguy
11-27-2016, 10:27 AM
That would be Lopez by a fair margin over the entire season.

The real question is, is Towns having a better season than Greg Monroe..?

AI
11-27-2016, 04:38 PM
I think Monroe has everyone beat, he's right up there with Anthony Davis. ;)

IndyRealist
11-27-2016, 07:46 PM
The real question is, is Towns having a better season than Greg Monroe..?

Well they're both better than Porzingas, so I'll leave that up to you.

Crackadalic
11-27-2016, 07:57 PM
Well they're both better than Porzingas, so I'll leave that up to you.

Its pretty unfair to compare Monroe to these guys. He's a 6-7 year vet. Of course he has better all around stats

Now if we talk about comparing their season at age 21 we have a good debate.

IndyRealist
11-27-2016, 08:26 PM
Its pretty unfair to compare Monroe to these guys. He's a 6-7 year vet. Of course he has better all around stats

Now if we talk about comparing their season at age 21 we have a good debate.

That's exactly my point. This whole argument is that based on numbers THIS YEAR people think KP is a top 20 player. That's ludicrous.

Crackadalic
11-27-2016, 10:01 PM
That's exactly my point. This whole argument is that based on numbers THIS YEAR people think KP is a top 20 player. That's ludicrous.

I don't think he's a top 20 player. If he was we be a top 4 seed right now. He's definitely having a borderline all-star season and is a top 3 pf in the east IMO. If he can move up to top 20 by seasons end I'm more then happy.

kyubi256
12-01-2016, 05:53 PM
Well KAT is a beast. KP is good but KAT is a beast

D-Leethal
12-01-2016, 06:19 PM
Well KAT is a beast. KP is good but KAT is a beast

They are both beasts. KAT is a MVP level beast though. KP is a notch below him at this point for sure. I do think KP has a ceiling that could be higher than Towns when we're talking peak primes though.

zn23
12-01-2016, 08:56 PM
Porzingis isn't as good as Towns yet. But he has more upside.

Crackadalic
12-01-2016, 10:58 PM
Porzingis isn't as good as Towns yet. But he has more upside.

Definitely. Can't wait till he reaches that level. The NBA is fun again

xxplayerxx23
12-02-2016, 01:19 AM
That's exactly my point. This whole argument is that based on numbers THIS YEAR people think KP is a top 20 player. That's ludicrous.


So far name 20 better lol Monroe isn't close to KP level right now I'm sorry

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:33 AM
So far name 20 better lol Monroe isn't close to KP level right now I'm sorry

The only people who think KP sniffs a top 20 are Knicks fans. I put up a list of 30-ish players without really trying.

xxplayerxx23
12-02-2016, 03:11 AM
The only people who think KP sniffs a top 20 are Knicks fans. I put up a list of 30-ish players without really trying.


That's hilarious lol no chance in the world you could put 30 players ahead of him

LOb0
12-02-2016, 03:49 AM
lol serious topic? KAT would go like top 5 or slightly out if the NBA held a draft due to his age, potential and how good he already is.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 08:52 AM
The only people who think KP sniffs a top 20 are Knicks fans. I put up a list of 30-ish players without really trying.

I don't think that is true at all. I just quick google for player power rankings and had Kristaps at 20 (http://hoopshabit.com/2016/11/25/nba-player-power-rankings-new-1/2/) and 23 (http://www.numberfire.com/nba/players/power-rankings).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmMZtP-5GIg

I honestly think with KP some of the hype outside of the Knick fan bubble is bigger than it is inside it.

You can pick your favorite stat and try to say why KP isn't there but you can't say only Knick fans are hyping him as a top 20 right now.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 08:54 AM
lol serious topic? KAT would go like top 5 or slightly out if the NBA held a draft due to his age, potential and how good he already is.

By those metrics, KP would be right behind him (or maybe in front).

GiantsSwaGG
12-02-2016, 09:53 AM
KP can do anything KAT can do, obviously the edge goes to KAT, KP weakness right owner strength and developing a consistent post game, on the perimeter KP is obviously better!

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 10:39 AM
That's hilarious lol no chance in the world you could put 30 players ahead of him

That guy REALLY hates KP, he said Greg Monroe, Otto porter and JJ reddick were having better seasons than him and that KP shouldnt make the all star team...lol

colinskik
12-02-2016, 10:45 AM
The only people who think KP sniffs a top 20 are Knicks fans. I put up a list of 30-ish players without really trying.

This comment reeks of jealousy.

A good litmus test is listening to other teams' announcers. Since I regularly stream games, I often have to watch the opponent's broadcast—and EVERY GAME the announcers are wowed by what KP is doing. They fawn over him TBH. I'm like, wait, which team are they paid to announce again?

colinskik
12-02-2016, 10:47 AM
I was highly impresses with Towns in Wednesday's game, but ultimately KP made some highly clutch plays that proved crucial for the win.

Can't wait to see what goes down in Round 2 tonight.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 10:47 AM
The only people who think KP sniffs a top 20 are Knicks fans. I put up a list of 30-ish players without really trying.

you put up a list of 30 random players, most of which can't sniff KP's jock.

Go tell a MIL fan that Monroe is having a better season than KP... see how quickly they burst out laughing... they would trade him for peanuts.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 10:47 AM
I was highly impresses with Towns in Wednesday's game, but ultimately KP made some highly clutch plays that proved crucial for the win.

Can't wait to see what goes down in Round 2 tonight.

a Wolves loss, that is what happens

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 10:51 AM
a Wolves loss, that is what happens

you're being too hard on them, they are kids.

but i havent been impressed with Wiggins TBH... he doesn't seem to have "IT"... he scores on natural ability but does little else and his shot is erratic.

colinskik
12-02-2016, 10:59 AM
a Wolves loss, that is what happens

I've been disappointed that Thibs hasn't been able to take the team to the next level. Admittedly, I haven't watched them much though.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 11:01 AM
The only people who think KP sniffs a top 20 are Knicks fans. I put up a list of 30-ish players without really trying.

you put up a list of 30 random players, most of which can't sniff KP's jock.

Go tell a MIL fan that Monroe is having a better season than KP... see how quickly they burst out laughing... they would trade him for peanuts.

You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

colinskik
12-02-2016, 11:07 AM
You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

He was talking about the likes of Monroe, JJ Redick and Otto Porter. C'mon -- those guys aren't anywhere near KP talent wise. They're role players -- at best. Some are bench guys.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 11:11 AM
a Wolves loss, that is what happens

I never thought the Wolves deserved the status they were getting going into this season. They are too young. That said, you guys have a MAJOR breakout season in your back pocket - we all know it's gonna happen. Just not sure if it's next year or the year after. Wolves will make the 09-10 OKC leap one of these next 2 years and once that happens they are a WC contender for as far as you can see.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 11:13 AM
You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

I think the few that were so ridiculous, using nothing but Net RTG to prove his point, warranted the hyperbolic response.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 11:21 AM
I think the few that were so ridiculous, using nothing but Net RTG to prove his point, warranted the hyperbolic response.

Go back and re-read the thread. I quoted a whole lot more than net rating. Now go back to my list and point out "most" that aren't in KP's league. Most were max contract players.

I don't hate KP, I'm pointing out that Knicks fans are going WAY overboard on a 2nd year player who has the potential to be great, but isn't great right now.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 11:22 AM
you put up a list of 30 random players, most of which can't sniff KP's jock.

Go tell a MIL fan that Monroe is having a better season than KP... see how quickly they burst out laughing... they would trade him for peanuts.

You mean besides the Knicks fan who agreed with me?

You didn't think Dwight Howard belonged in the convo with KP when he might be the best big man in the league right now and is statistically better than KP in every way.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 11:25 AM
You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

He was talking about the likes of Monroe, JJ Redick and Otto Porter. C'mon -- those guys aren't anywhere near KP talent wise. They're role players -- at best. Some are bench guys.

I agree, a few of them were not better than kp. Half not sniffing his jock? Go back and look at the list because he had most of the top players on there too.

It was a few bad choices with poor reasoning for them IMO but overall I don't think kp is necessarily top 20 yet either and agree with much of that list.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 11:30 AM
I never thought the Wolves deserved the status they were getting going into this season. They are too young. That said, you guys have a MAJOR breakout season in your back pocket - we all know it's gonna happen. Just not sure if it's next year or the year after. Wolves will make the 09-10 OKC leap one of these next 2 years and once that happens they are a WC contender for as far as you can see.

been talking about this in the Wolves forum, and with my brother. We have multiple young players, who always dominated on pure talent disparity. They have never been yelled at, or told no. Winning in the NBA takes a lot more than just talent. Towns, Wiggins, Lavine, Dunn, Shabazz, etc, all need something internal to change. They need to learn how to sacrifice. How to make the right play. They are putting too much pressure on themselves as losses mount, and that does nothing but turn them more selfish.

Hell, Towns, and Wiggins don't even know how to block out yet. They never had to.

it will come. It's hard to win in the NBA. Young guys, especially super high lottery picks that have always dominated in their life, don't understand until they get knocked on their ***.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 11:32 AM
I agree, a few of them were not better than kp. Half not sniffing his jock? Go back and look at the list because he had most of the top players on there too.

It was a few bad choices with poor reasoning for them IMO but overall I don't think kp is necessarily top 20 yet either and agree with much of that list.

When you create a list using advanced stats and refuse to eliminate the obvious outliers you deserve to get lambasted as a statwhore who lets the spreadsheet override rational thought. Indy deserved the hyperbole response. KP is most likely anywhere from 20-30, and he is within a very small portion of that list of 20-30 player that is still nowhere near his peak ceiling yet.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 11:34 AM
You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

I think the few that were so ridiculous, using nothing but Net RTG to prove his point, warranted the hyperbolic response.

He had a bit more but I do agree that some of his choices were off. The response to it has reached a more ridiculous tone now though IMO with what I quoted. I was all over him last year for the Calderon thing with you guys.

Players like Giannis, towns, kyrie etc fall in the bottom half of his list probably lol. You can argue them better straight up, let alone not even close to kps level.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 11:35 AM
When you create a list using advanced stats and refuse to eliminate the obvious outliers you deserve to get lambasted as a statwhore who lets the spreadsheet override rational thought. Indy deserved the hyperbole response. KP is most likely anywhere from 20-30, and he is within a very small portion of that list of 20-30 player that is still nowhere near his peak ceiling yet.

yeah, mixing stats with visual (and getting rid of the Patty Mills/Otto Porter/Cody Zellers of the stats world, cause, cmon), Porz is around 20-25 this year so far.

Towns and Porzingis will join Davis, and Embiid if he ends up staying healthy and can play real minutes, to dominate the frontcourt for years.

ewing
12-02-2016, 11:36 AM
i stand by my original statement Towns is better right now. He has the ability to get a lot more clean looks b/c of his strength and all around game. KP is a better shot maker though and if he can grow into his body more i think he can develop more of what Towns has now and pass him. Right now Towns is the better player.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 11:38 AM
been talking about this in the Wolves forum, and with my brother. We have multiple young players, who always dominated on pure talent disparity. They have never been yelled at, or told no. Winning in the NBA takes a lot more than just talent. Towns, Wiggins, Lavine, Dunn, Shabazz, etc, all need something internal to change. They need to learn how to sacrifice. How to make the right play. They are putting too much pressure on themselves as losses mount, and that does nothing but turn them more selfish.

Hell, Towns, and Wiggins don't even know how to block out yet. They never had to.

it will come. It's hard to win in the NBA. Young guys, especially super high lottery picks that have always dominated in their life, don't understand until they get knocked on their ***.

Do they really though? It's a talent league. Did Harden, Westy, and KD do all those things you mentioned? The team needs to get it from somewhere obviously, but supreme talent is what gets you to the top of the mountain in this league and you guys have that. The losses will be good for them in the long run - it will drill the intangible play into their skulls as they continue to get beat in those departments, every young team goes through that on their way to the top. You start to figure out what it takes to actually win.

I think a few roster tweaks to get the right mix of veterans will do wonders but you guys have all the grade A young talent you need - now it just needs to be cultivated which takes years when ALL the talent on the roster are babies in NBA years. I think the OKC trajectory is a realistic one for you guys. I don't think they won games until KD's third or fourth year.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 11:41 AM
You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

a few?

Monroe, Porter, Reddick, MKG... those guys dont even belong in the convo.

Then he said guys like Conley, Gobert, PG13, Dray, Drummond, Deandre, Whiteside, Howard... were "unquestionably better"... now maybe some of those would be up for debate, but by no stretch have those guys been "unquestionably better"... and there are still others that are debatable... basically half his list was BS and yet he spoke as if it was absolute truths... so no, I don't think i'm being more ridiculous than the guy that said Greg freakin Monroe was having a better year than KP...lol

KP has SO FAR been top 15-25, depending on how you want to rank him, to say "only knick fans think he's in the top 20 convo and that's a "huge reach"... come on now...

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 11:42 AM
I think it's inevitable that Minny is eventually at the top of the conference. Waiting patiently for the inevitable to unfold is sometimes one of the most frustrating things we have to do in life though.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 11:42 AM
I quite clearly pointed out that a few were only having fantastic early season success, not indicative of their normal production, which are all the guys they keep bringing up. They're relying exclusively on hype and name recognition than actual production.

For instance, Kristap's claim to fame is his massive increase in scoring efficiency coupled with high usage, because he's pretty much declined everywhere else from last year. JJ Redick has comparable points per minute on less shot attempts and is significantly more efficient, to the tune of +3.5% TS. So if what makes KP good is his scoring ability, and JJ Reddick is scoring as much with less attempts....

Context of course matters, but what you produce is what you produce. If the Hawks suddenly told Kyle Korver to stop shooting 3s, he wouldn't produce much regardless of what he could actually do. They told Kristaps to stop rebounding and block less shots. Can he rebound and block shots? Yes. IS HE DOING IT? Not like last year. Again, we are talking about WHAT HE IS DOING, not what he will do three years from now, not what he did last year, not what his ceiling is.

Is JJ Redick a better player than KP? No. Is he producing as much with less attempts than KP in a small sample size? Yes.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 11:42 AM
Do they really though? It's a talent league. Did Harden, Westy, and KD do all those things you mentioned? The team needs to get it from somewhere obviously, but supreme talent is what gets you to the top of the mountain in this league and you guys have that. The losses will be good for them in the long run - it will drill the intangible play into their skulls as they continue to get beat in those departments, every young team goes through that on their way to the top. You start to figure out what it takes to actually win.

I think a few roster tweaks to get the right mix of veterans will do wonders but you guys have all the grade A young talent you need - now it just needs to be cultivated which takes years when ALL the talent on the roster are babies in NBA years. I think the OKC trajectory is a realistic one for you guys. I don't think they won games until KD's third or fourth year.


I mean, they dominated growing up, in youth leagues, high school, and college.

Yes, you need the talent. But you also need your players to act as a unit, not as a bunch of individuals with a ton of talent. That is what I am getting at. For instance, the other night, Towns blows by his guy on the perimeter, out of control, trying to make a play, and force feed it to Dieng, turnover. He had 2 WIDE OPEN shooters on either side of him. Slow down, make the right play. Wiggins, goes hero ball iso too much. Slow down, make the right play.

It takes learning. Changing the way you think, and see the floor. Yep, young players go through this.

We have a ton of cap space this upcoming year. I would imagine we try and get a real vet to sign, and Rubio clearly isn't a Thib's PG, so I imagine he may be moved at some point next summer, or next season. He is useless if all you want from your PG is either a drive and kick (Rubio gets no respect, and rightly so, the defense won't bother collapsing on his drive), or a floor spacer. That is a joke when referring to Rubio..

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 11:43 AM
I think it's inevitable that Minny is eventually at the top of the conference. Waiting patiently for the inevitable to unfold is sometimes one of the most frustrating things we have to do in life though.

Hi, Wolves fan here. Have we met?

We have sucked for eternity. What's a few more years?

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 11:44 AM
a few?

Monroe, Porter, Reddick, MKG... those guys dont even belong in the convo.

Then he said guys like Conley, Gobert, PG13, Dray, Drummond, Deandre, Whiteside, Howard... were "unquestionably better"... now maybe some of those would be up for debate, but by no stretch have those guys been "unquestionably better"... and there are still others that are debatable... basically half his list was BS and yet he spoke as if it was absolute truths... so no, I don't think i'm being more ridiculous than the guy that said Greg freakin Monroe was having a better year than KP...lol

"Most of the list" became "more than half" and is now "basically half". You're obviously not paying attention outside of MSG if you thought Dwight Howard wasn't head and shoulders above KP in this small sample size.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 11:53 AM
I quite clearly pointed out that a few were only having fantastic early season success, not indicative of their normal production, which are all the guys they keep bringing up. They're relying exclusively on hype and name recognition than actual production.

For instance, Kristap's claim to fame is his massive increase in scoring efficiency coupled with high usage, because he's pretty much declined everywhere else from last year. JJ Redick has comparable points per minute on less shot attempts and is significantly more efficient, to the tune of +3.5% TS. So if what makes KP good is his scoring ability, and JJ Reddick is scoring as much with less attempts....

Context of course matters, but what you produce is what you produce. If the Hawks suddenly told Kyle Korver to stop shooting 3s, he wouldn't produce much regardless of what he could actually do. They told Kristaps to stop rebounding and block less shots. Can he rebound and block shots? Yes. IS HE DOING IT? Not like last year. Again, we are talking about WHAT HE IS DOING, not what he will do three years from now, not what he did last year, not what his ceiling is.

Is JJ Redick a better player than KP? No. Is he producing as much with less attempts than KP in a small sample size? Yes.

Basketball isn't measured as a compilation of individual production. Baseball is. The sooner you absorb that, the sooner you can start using stats as a complementary source of information, the sooner we can start taking your opinions on the game of basketball seriously.

What you produce is what you produce, yes, very enlightening. But what you produce doesn't solely define your status as a player.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 11:58 AM
I quite clearly pointed out that a few were only having fantastic early season success, not indicative of their normal production, which are all the guys they keep bringing up. They're relying exclusively on hype and name recognition than actual production.

For instance, Kristap's claim to fame is his massive increase in scoring efficiency coupled with high usage, because he's pretty much declined everywhere else from last year. JJ Redick has comparable points per minute on less shot attempts and is significantly more efficient, to the tune of +3.5% TS. So if what makes KP good is his scoring ability, and JJ Reddick is scoring as much with less attempts....

Context of course matters, but what you produce is what you produce. If the Hawks suddenly told Kyle Korver to stop shooting 3s, he wouldn't produce much regardless of what he could actually do. They told Kristaps to stop rebounding and block less shots. Can he rebound and block shots? Yes. IS HE DOING IT? Not like last year. Again, we are talking about WHAT HE IS DOING, not what he will do three years from now, not what he did last year, not what his ceiling is.

Is JJ Redick a better player than KP? No. Is he producing as much with less attempts than KP in a small sample size? Yes.

by "producing" I assume you are only looking at points per shot... so by that logic how has Drummond been "unquestionably better" than KP? I assume you will say because of rebounds or blocks, but I guess that doesn't apply to KP vs Reddick ey?...lol

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 12:00 PM
You are being much more ridiculous than him at this point. He had a list of top players in the game with a few bad ones mixed in (IMO).

It wasn't "random" and it takes a major homer to think most of them can't "sniff kps jock".

a few?

Monroe, Porter, Reddick, MKG... those guys dont even belong in the convo.

Then he said guys like Conley, Gobert, PG13, Dray, Drummond, Deandre, Whiteside, Howard... were "unquestionably better"... now maybe some of those would be up for debate, but by no stretch have those guys been "unquestionably better"... and there are still others that are debatable... basically half his list was BS and yet he spoke as if it was absolute truths... so no, I don't think i'm being more ridiculous than the guy that said Greg freakin Monroe was having a better year than KP...lol

KP has SO FAR been top 15-25, depending on how you want to rank him, to say "only knick fans think he's in the top 20 convo and that's a "huge reach"... come on now...

I think that's a bit high for kp but overall this post is better. I was just pointing out that you were going overboard and becoming even more ridiculous. He shouldn't have used the term unquestionably better but those names have merit on the list.

I pointed this out already but saying players like towns Giannis kyrie Lilliard etc who fall in the bottom half most likely aren't even near kp is completely ridiculous too. Not sure how you are gonna defend that but whatever. He made an ok list with a few bad choices mixed in and it could have been worded better as well (too harsh on kp like you point out with a couple comments). Yours was just completely out of whack though.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 12:02 PM
For a premier scoring prospect, a massive leap in scoring ability outweights slight decreases elsewhere. That's not even really a point worth debating, it's a tenable truth. Dennis Rodman's best individual seasons are defined by his rebounding and defense. Whether or not his scoring dipped a point or his FT shooting went down means nothing to nobody - it has no bearing on the argument when his strengths were at their peak. Dirk's best individual seasons are defined by his best combination of usage + efficiency - if his blocks and steals went down it means nothing to nobody because his strengths were at their peak.

I get sometimes these insignificant statistical decreases might have a negative impact on your favorite algorythm, but any rational mind can usually get past that.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 12:03 PM
I think that's a bit high for kp but overall this post is better. I was just pointing out that you were going overboard and becoming even more ridiculous. He shouldn't have used the term unquestionably better but those names have merit on the list.

I pointed this out already but saying players like towns Giannis kyrie Lilliard etc who fall in the bottom half most likely aren't even near kp is completely ridiculous too. Not sure how you are gonna defend that but whatever. He made an ok list with a few bad choices mixed in and it could have been worded better as well (too harsh on kp like you point out with a couple comments). Yours was just completely out of whack though.

i'm not gonna defend it because i never said that?

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:05 PM
by "producing" I assume you are only looking at points per shot... so by that logic how has Drummond been "unquestionably better" than KP? I assume you will say because of rebounds or blocks, but I guess that doesn't apply to KP vs Reddick ey?...lol

Given the positions they occupy, and the fact that KP has declined otherwise, yes. Compared to the average at their positions, Reddick is far more above the average guard than KP is the average PF.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 12:06 PM
I mean, they dominated growing up, in youth leagues, high school, and college.

Yes, you need the talent. But you also need your players to act as a unit, not as a bunch of individuals with a ton of talent. That is what I am getting at. For instance, the other night, Towns blows by his guy on the perimeter, out of control, trying to make a play, and force feed it to Dieng, turnover. He had 2 WIDE OPEN shooters on either side of him. Slow down, make the right play. Wiggins, goes hero ball iso too much. Slow down, make the right play.

It takes learning. Changing the way you think, and see the floor. Yep, young players go through this.

We have a ton of cap space this upcoming year. I would imagine we try and get a real vet to sign, and Rubio clearly isn't a Thib's PG, so I imagine he may be moved at some point next summer, or next season. He is useless if all you want from your PG is either a drive and kick (Rubio gets no respect, and rightly so, the defense won't bother collapsing on his drive), or a floor spacer. That is a joke when referring to Rubio..

Do you like Thibs as your guy long term? I could see where he is a great guy to hammer these young cats with the fundamentals, preparation and pure hard work. I could also see where he is a bit old school in his philosophy and schemes and it seems those types of coaches are getting left in the dust for new breed, evolving, pragmatic minds in the mold of Walton and Stevens (and I would like to say our guy Hornacek).

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 12:09 PM
Given the positions they occupy, and the fact that KP has declined otherwise, yes. Compared to the average at their positions, Reddick is far more above the average guard than KP is the average PF.

I wonder if college scouts that are looking at a dead eye shooting 6'3 guard say, "well, IDK if we should take this guy, he doesn't seem to rebound and block shots on an above average level".

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:11 PM
For a premier scoring prospect, a massive leap in scoring ability outweights slight decreases elsewhere. That's not even really a point worth debating, it's a tenable truth. Dennis Rodman's best individual seasons are defined by his rebounding and defense. Whether or not his scoring dipped a point or his FT shooting went down means nothing to nobody - it has no bearing on the argument when his strengths were at their peak. Dirk's best individual seasons are defined by his best combination of usage + efficiency - if his blocks and steals went down it means nothing to nobody because his strengths were at their peak.

I get sometimes these insignificant statistical decreases might have a negative impact on your favorite algorythm, but any rational mind can usually get past that.

A 54% decrease in block rate is not a "slight" decrease (at the time, he's picked it up since I said that) If you're going to be deficient in certain areas, then you'd better be stellar in others to make up for it, because you're imposing an opportunity cost on your team. KP is stellar scorer, but there's still the fact that you're losing other production you would otherwise get from another player in those minutes does drag you down. I never said he was a BAD player, I said he's not in the upper echelon yet.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:13 PM
I wonder if college scouts that are looking at a dead eye shooting 6'3 guard say, "well, IDK if we should take this guy, he doesn't seem to rebound and block shots on an above average level".

Did you not comprehend the post you quoted? Redick is further above the average guard than KP is above the average PF, in this small sample size.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 12:16 PM
A 54% decrease in block rate is not a "slight" decrease (at the time, he's picked it up since I said that) If you're going to be deficient in certain areas, then you'd better be stellar in others to make up for it, because you're imposing an opportunity cost on your team. KP is stellar scorer, but there's still the fact that you're losing other production you would otherwise get from another player in those minutes does drag you down. I never said he was a BAD player, I said he's not in the upper echelon yet.

KP was 4th among PF's in BPG even at that time, and has since climbed. to say that a guy has "declined" because he might have 2 or 3 less blocks than at the same point last year is such nonsense... you are reaching soooo hard. Sometimes its better to just say u were wrong than to keep digging your hole deeper.

And KP is around a top 5 PF this year, exactly how is Reddick better than the average shooting guard more than KP is the average PF?

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 12:21 PM
A 54% decrease in block rate is not a "slight" decrease (at the time, he's picked it up since I said that) If you're going to be deficient in certain areas, then you'd better be stellar in others to make up for it, because you're imposing an opportunity cost on your team. KP is stellar scorer, but there's still the fact that you're losing other production you would otherwise get from another player in those minutes does drag you down. I never said he was a BAD player, I said he's not in the upper echelon yet.

KP rarely plays C this year - he is always on the court with Noah, Quinn, or Willy. The amount of time he gets with Melo at PF is next to none, sans two late game stretches against Portland and CHA, of which he put up a block party in about 6 total minutes of game play combined. I'm fairly certain if you looked it up, he rarely sees the court without a C compared to last year where he always closed games at C. That takes him away from the hoop.

That aside, your agument is complete nonsense, why exactly is a 54% decrease of anything significant when were talking numbers less than ****ing 2. Were talking a decrease from 1.9 to 1.5. Is it significant because the % is high on the surface (if were talking a 54% rate decrease on 12 boards, or a 54% rate decrease on 25 points) or because blocking 1 less shot every 2 games leads to significant impact on a games bottom line?

If you want to talk rates and percentages at least acknowledge how ****ing tiny the raw number delta is and how ****ing tiny the stat delta in question (.4 blocks) could affect the outcome games. Were talking half a block per game here. Save the sensationalized rate decrease for such an insignificant raw number. This is where you need to take off your mathematics cap and put on your basketball cap.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 12:22 PM
Did you not comprehend the post you quoted? Redick is further above the average guard than KP is above the average PF, in this small sample size.

Whether or not Reddick is above the average guard in blocking ****ing shots doesn't matter to anybody, it has no bearing on his weight as a player. That is the point. It's not even worth looking at. If you want to see how Reddick is pairing up to his peers you see how he is shooting the rock and whether or not he is getting roasted on defense.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 12:24 PM
i'm not gonna defend it because i never said that?

The first thing I quoted was you saying most of his list can't hold KP's jock strap.

Lebron, Curry, Harden, cp3, Westy, Blake, AD, Butler, Kawhi, Durant are all better right? I mean at best we only can add 4 more names and then everything else is "most" of his "random" list of 30.

So that would mean you think at least some of Green, PG, Love, Towns, Giannis, Lilliard, Conley etc can't hold KP's jock strap, unless you are ready to admit that comment was completely ridiculous as I claimed...

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 12:29 PM
Do you like Thibs as your guy long term? I could see where he is a great guy to hammer these young cats with the fundamentals, preparation and pure hard work. I could also see where he is a bit old school in his philosophy and schemes and it seems those types of coaches are getting left in the dust for new breed, evolving, pragmatic minds in the mold of Walton and Stevens (and I would like to say our guy Hornacek).

I am willing to give Thib's his contract length to prove it. His year off, he spent a lot of time with other teams, learning their philosophies, etc. Meaning more modern offenses.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 12:30 PM
The first thing I quoted was you saying most of his list can't hold KP's jock strap.

Lebron, Curry, Harden, cp3, Westy, Blake, AD, Butler, Kawhi, Durant are all better right? I mean at best we only can add 4 more names and then everything else is "most" of his "random" list of 30.

So that would mean you think at least some of Green, PG, Love, Towns, Giannis, Lilliard, Conley etc can't hold KP's jock strap, unless you are ready to admit that comment was completely ridiculous as I claimed...

my god dude, you need to look up the words "hyperbole" and "exaggeration". you seriously thought I went through the entire list and picked out exactly half of them? Geesh... you are either purposely being a dick or you take things wayyy too literally and can't pick up on any hyperbole.

I simply never said what you claimed i said...

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:32 PM
KP was 4th among PF's in BPG even at that time, and has since climbed. to say that a guy has "declined" because he might have 2 or 3 less blocks than at the same point last year is such nonsense... you are reaching soooo hard. Sometimes its better to just say u were wrong than to keep digging your hole deeper.

And KP is around a top 5 PF this year, exactly how is Reddick better than the average shooting guard more than KP is the average PF?

Again, If KP was a top 20 player (at the time) then so was Myles Turner. I did the comparison a few pages back. Same TS%, KP scored marginally more, Turner rebounded marginally more, Turner was the MUCH better shot blocker and got over 50% more steals per minute. At the time, KP got 1.2 blocks per 36, per BBR. Turner was 2.9 per 36. So was Turner a top 20 player as well?

As for the Redick example, the average wing shoots 53.6% TS, the average big 55.2%. Redick shoots 63.3% right now, and KP 59.8%. Reddick is substantially better than the average wing, where KP is better but by a MUCH smaller margin. Not only is Reddick a more efficient scorer than KP in an absolute sense, on similar usage, but Reddick is light years ahead of the average wing in that regard, where KP is good bordering on great.

ewing
12-02-2016, 12:33 PM
A 54% decrease in block rate is not a "slight" decrease (at the time, he's picked it up since I said that) If you're going to be deficient in certain areas, then you'd better be stellar in others to make up for it, because you're imposing an opportunity cost on your team. KP is stellar scorer, but there's still the fact that you're losing other production you would otherwise get from another player in those minutes does drag you down. I never said he was a BAD player, I said he's not in the upper echelon yet.

How many times have you watched KP this year?

bklynny67
12-02-2016, 12:36 PM
Indyrealist got ****ing owned. He's trying to make a big deal about a difference in .4 blocks per game when he rarely even plays center. 54% difference is irrelevant when talking such small numbers. Geez. Learn something will ya.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 12:37 PM
Again, If KP was a top 20 player (at the time) then so was Myles Turner. I did the comparison a few pages back. Same TS%, KP scored marginally more, Turner rebounded marginally more, Turner was the MUCH better shot blocker and got over 50% more steals per minute. At the time, KP got 1.2 blocks per 36, per BBR. Turner was 2.9 per 36. So was Turner a top 20 player as well?

As for the Redick example, the average wing shoots 53.6% TS, the average big 55.2%. Redick shoots 63.3% right now, and KP 59.8%. Reddick is substantially better than the average wing, where KP is better but by a MUCH smaller margin. Not only is Reddick a more efficient scorer than KP in an absolute sense, on similar usage, but Reddick is light years ahead of the average wing in that regard, where KP is good bordering on great.

you HAVE to be trolling... right? I almost prefer that you are or else you are truly lost.

TS% is your big ranking? or is is steals per game for big men?...lol

and KP scores 6 more ppg than Turner, I wouldn't call that scoring "marginally more"

You must have Tyson Chandler on your top 5 players then...

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:41 PM
KP rarely plays C this year - he is always on the court with Noah, Quinn, or Willy. The amount of time he gets with Melo at PF is next to none, sans two late game stretches against Portland and CHA, of which he put up a block party in about 6 total minutes of game play combined. I'm fairly certain if you looked it up, he rarely sees the court without a C compared to last year where he always closed games at C. That takes him away from the hoop.

That aside, your agument is complete nonsense, why exactly is a 54% decrease of anything significant when were talking numbers less than ****ing 2. Were talking a decrease from 1.9 to 1.5. Is it significant because the % is high on the surface (if were talking a 54% rate decrease on 12 boards, or a 54% rate decrease on 25 points) or because blocking 1 less shot every 2 games leads to significant impact on a games bottom line?

If you want to talk rates and percentages at least acknowledge how ****ing tiny the raw number delta is and how ****ing tiny the stat delta in question (.4 blocks) could affect the outcome games. Were talking half a block per game here. Save the sensationalized rate decrease for such an insignificant raw number. This is where you need to take off your mathematics cap and put on your basketball cap.

We were actually talking about 1.2 blocks per 36 vs 2.4 per 36 last year. Up til this point you've been talking context, system, and his team, which is fine. But if you're going to talk numbers, and criticize mine, try to use relevant ones. Per game numbers obfuscate what's going on because he's playing more minutes. His block RATE was down by 54%.

If you haven't noticed, I mention small sample size ALL THE TIME. Because we're f***ing talking about less than 20 games. Claiming someone is top 20 through 14-ish games and then saying "you can't look at the numbers because it's a small sample size" is ludicrous. You're looking at a small sample size to make your judgement that he's a top 20 player. In that small sample size, he was not.

tredigs
12-02-2016, 12:42 PM
Again, If KP was a top 20 player (at the time) then so was Myles Turner. I did the comparison a few pages back. Same TS%, KP scored marginally more, Turner rebounded marginally more, Turner was the MUCH better shot blocker and got over 50% more steals per minute. At the time, KP got 1.2 blocks per 36, per BBR. Turner was 2.9 per 36. So was Turner a top 20 player as well?

As for the Redick example, the average wing shoots 53.6% TS, the average big 55.2%. Redick shoots 63.3% right now, and KP 59.8%. Reddick is substantially better than the average wing, where KP is better but by a MUCH smaller margin. Not only is Reddick a more efficient scorer than KP in an absolute sense, on similar usage, but Reddick is light years ahead of the average wing in that regard, where KP is good bordering on great.

You should also recognize that Reddick is simply a cog in a well oiled machine driven by the best playmaking PG of our generation, with a co-pilot who is a top scorer/playmaker at his position in BG. Reddick has always been lights out, but he wasn't posting these TS's in Orlando, I assure you. He's also a one dimensional player. If his shot isn't firing, there goes his impact for the game.

You also used his per-100 possession stats on your breakdown back there, not his per-36 as listed (and what you used for the others). Massive difference between the two as I'm sure you know. I'm a Reddick fan, but in a vacuum he's certainly not a more potent player than Porzingis. In his role? Yeah, you could argue that.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:43 PM
Indyrealist got ****ing owned. He's trying to make a big deal about a difference in .4 blocks per game when he rarely even plays center. 54% difference is irrelevant when talking such small numbers. Geez. Learn something will ya.

Please go back and reread the thread before jumping to conclusions.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 12:43 PM
my god dude, you need to look up the words "hyperbole" and "exaggeration". you seriously thought I went through the entire list and picked out exactly half of them? Geesh... you are either purposely being a dick or you take things wayyy too literally and can't pick up on any hyperbole.

I simply never said what you claimed i said...

Lol I came in calling that post out there was a gang mentality type thing it seemed and it was going too far imo. I would have definitely figured you didn't mean that so I thought why not call out the ridiculous bashing to calm it down. Then you defended it after that even with a post "so no, I don't think i'm being more ridiculous than the guy that said Greg freakin Monroe was having a better year than KP...lol".

I am not trying to be a dick but I also don't see the need for hyperbole to bash someone which is part of why I called it out (D-Leethal is discussing with Indy back and forth which is how that should be responded to). You defending it made me decide to just lay out how ridiculous it was because you seemed in denial with your follow up.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 12:44 PM
We were actually talking about 1.2 blocks per 36 vs 2.4 per 36 last year. Up til this point you've been talking context, system, and his team, which is fine. But if you're going to talk numbers, and criticize mine, try to use relevant ones. Per game numbers obfuscate what's going on because he's playing more minutes. His block RATE was down by 54%.

If you haven't noticed, I mention small sample size ALL THE TIME. Because we're f***ing talking about less than 20 games. Claiming someone is top 20 through 14-ish games and then saying "you can't look at the numbers because it's a small sample size" is ludicrous. You're looking at a small sample size to make your judgement that he's a top 20 player. In that small sample size, he was not.

but your argument wasn't "it's too early to discuss that"... that would have been a reasonable argument.... your argument has been that guys like Greg Monroe, MKG & Reddick have all been just as good if not better than KP this year. and that only knick fans would think KP has a top 20 case and that its a HUGE REACH.

and that somehow guys like Drummond have been "unquestionably better this year"

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:47 PM
You should also recognize that Reddick is simply a cog in a well oiled machine driven by the best playmaking PG of our generation, with a co-pilot who is a top scorer/playmaker at his position in BG. Reddick has always been lights out, but he wasn't posting these TS's in Orlando, I assure you. He's also a one dimensional player. If his shot isn't firing, there goes his impact for the game.

You also used his per-100 possession stats on your breakdown back there, not his per-36 as listed (and what you used for the others). Massive difference between the two as I'm sure you know. I'm a Reddick fan, but in a vacuum he's certainly not a more potent player than Porzingis. In his role? Yeah, you could argue that.

I used both back on page....4-ish?

As I said earlier, if the Hawks told Korver to stop shooting 3s, he's going to produce less. Is he still the same player? Yes. But his production suffers. Your production is what it is. We haven't been talking about what KP -could- do, but rather what he is actually producing in this small sample size. Does KP suffer from having Derrick Rose as his PG? Hell yes. But you can't award him extra points because his teammate sucks.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 12:47 PM
We were actually talking about 1.2 blocks per 36 vs 2.4 per 36 last year. Up til this point you've been talking context, system, and his team, which is fine. But if you're going to talk numbers, and criticize mine, try to use relevant ones. Per game numbers obfuscate what's going on because he's playing more minutes. His block RATE was down by 54%.

If you haven't noticed, I mention small sample size ALL THE TIME. Because we're f***ing talking about less than 20 games. Claiming someone is top 20 through 14-ish games and then saying "you can't look at the numbers because it's a small sample size" is ludicrous. You're looking at a small sample size to make your judgement that he's a top 20 player. In that small sample size, he was not.

Rates are not significant - at all - when the raw numbers are so small, and have such small impact on games. I know you stat guys like to think all stats are created equal or something, but a 54% decrease in blocks per game, or .8 blocks per 36 minutes does not do anything to counterract the rate increaes in scoring usage + efficiency, if we are talking impact on the bottom line of games. Deep down you know that, you are just addicted to the numbers and can't let go, they do your thinking for you. On top of that, you are severely lacking any ability whatsoever to add context to these numbers and write off the insignifance when it's warranted, like it clearly is here with regards to this "massive" decrease in block rates - to the tune of less than 1 per 36 minutes.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:58 PM
but your argument wasn't "it's too early to discuss that"... that would have been a reasonable argument.... your argument has been that guys like Greg Monroe, MKG & Reddick have all been just as good if not better than KP this year. and that only knick fans would think KP has a top 20 case and that its a HUGE REACH.

and that somehow guys like Drummond have been "unquestionably better this year"

I made the caveat that this was all small sample size talk, multiple times, because that's all we're talking about. Less than 20 games. You're saying "small sample size is ok to judge KP as a top 20 player, but for everyone else we can't talk about them because it's small sample size". I feel like you're getting into the idea of potential when you're talking about him as a top 20 player, not on what he's actually produced.

If you want to argue that Drummond isn't as good as KP so far, that's also fine. But when he's literally getting twice as many rebounds per minute....If you want to say they have different roles, that's true. But when you say "top 20 player" you're comparing across roles.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 12:59 PM
I made the caveat that this was all small sample size talk, multiple times, because that's all we're talking about. Less than 20 games. You're saying "small sample size is ok to judge KP as a top 20 player, but for everyone else we can't talk about them because it's small sample size". I feel like you're getting into the idea of potential when you're talking about him as a top 20 player, not on what he's actually produced.

If you want to argue that Drummond isn't as good as KP so far, that's also fine. But when he's literally getting twice as many rebounds per minute....If you want to say they have different roles, that's true. But when you say "top 20 player" you're comparing across roles.

Um no I never said that...?

i specifically said SO FAR this season he's been a top 20 players and you flipped your lid and bought up monroe's season...lol

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 12:59 PM
Rates are not significant - at all - when the raw numbers are so small, and have such small impact on games. I know you stat guys like to think all stats are created equal or something, but a 54% decrease in blocks per game, or .8 blocks per 36 minutes does not do anything to counterract the rate increaes in scoring usage + efficiency, if we are talking impact on the bottom line of games. Deep down you know that, you are just addicted to the numbers and can't let go, they do your thinking for you. On top of that, you are severely lacking any ability whatsoever to add context to these numbers and write off the insignifance when it's warranted, like it clearly is here with regards to this "massive" decrease in block rates - to the tune of less than 1 per 36 minutes.

If block rates do not matter in a small sample size, then why do shooting rates? Again, you're saying small sample size is fine when it makes your guy look good, but when it makes anyone else look good we can't count it.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:01 PM
You're right, you didn't say that. You're fine judging KP in a small sample size, and I made the same caveat. Small sample size. And in that small sample size, I judged he was not a top 20 player, and pointed to 30+ players I thought were better. You can't argue some of them, and you seem to be arguing the same 2 or 3 repeatedly. But can you argue enough of them to get him in the top 20?

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 01:02 PM
If block rates do not matter in a small sample size, then why do shooting rates? Again, you're saying small sample size is fine when it makes your guy look good, but when it makes anyone else look good we can't count it.

because blocks are a very small raw number... FGA and points are not. KP has taken almost 300 FG's this year. that's not a tiny sample size.

bpg, KP can go out and block 4 shots tonight and it would significantly affect his Blocks rate... it's not a big deal. He can score 0 or 40 tonight though and it won't have a huge impact on his scoring or shooting numbers.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:05 PM
because blocks are a very small raw number... FGA and points are not. KP has taken almost 300 FG's this year. that's not a tiny sample size.

bpg, KP can go out and block 4 shots tonight and it would significantly affect his Blocks rate... it's not a big deal. He can score 0 or 40 tonight though and it won't have a huge impact on his scoring or shooting numbers.

That would be true if we're comparing a single block to a single shot. But he's not going to go 0-4. He's going to go 0-17. You get more instances of shooting per minute, per game, and that will swing his shooting percentages as much as a bump in blocks will increase his block rate.

ewing
12-02-2016, 01:06 PM
it's about KP's assists.

ewing
12-02-2016, 01:06 PM
i mean do you guys really think he is top 20, like Calderon.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:10 PM
If block rates do not matter in a small sample size, then why do shooting rates? Again, you're saying small sample size is fine when it makes your guy look good, but when it makes anyone else look good we can't count it.

It's not about the small sample size. I'm talking about insignificance of calculated rates against minute raw numbers that barely have an iota of impact against the bottom line of a 48 minute basketball game. You could extrapolate this over an entire season and it will maintain the same insignficance if the raw number, per 36 delta remains as small as it is.

What the hell of a 54% decrease of 1.9?

I'll answer - insignificant.

If we were talking a 54% decrease of 20, or 15, or 10, or 12, I would say there is a significant impact on the bottom line.

Blocks are probably the most insignificant stat in the book - talk to me about opponents % at the rim if you want to talk impact in that area. Then I'll listen. But I'm not listening to you throw out 54% decrease trying to portray this massive deficiency in rim protection when the decrease is attributed to raw numbers less than 2.

Aren't you math guys supposed to understand weighted value or whatever the **** you nerds call it?

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 01:13 PM
Whiteside's block rate is down about 60%... He must really be on the decline this year...

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 01:14 PM
I am curious to know from Knicks fans if kp is the man on the team now? Looks like Melo still has top usage and I expect like vs us he is the closer with his skill set. However I also am guessing off the little I saw/stats that kp has developed some with his scoring/efficiency so am curious on his role.

From what I could tell last year it was mostly within flow, playing off teammates and hustle type plays, is he demanding attention and creating for himself/others more this year?

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:15 PM
i mean do you guys really think he is top 20, like Calderon.

LMAO, you had my dying here ewing.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:22 PM
I am curious to know from Knicks fans if kp is the man on the team now? Looks like Melo still has top usage and I expect like vs us he is the closer with his skill set. However I also am guessing off the little I saw/stats that kp has developed some with his scoring/efficiency so am curious on his role.

From what I could tell last year it was mostly within flow, playing off teammates and hustle type plays, is he demanding attention and creating for himself/others more this year?

The KP pick and roll (or pick and pop/float) has been the number 1 option IMO this season. We go to that early and often with our guards. Melo on the elbow has been our 2nd option. The amount of shots don't really tell you the whole story. I just posted this in the Knicks forum about guys dogging Melo for taking more shots and saying he was being selfish (I don't buy it - Melo looks for KP all the time and they are rarely put into 2-man sets where they can play off each other). Forgive the arbitrary numbers - they just help reinforce the idea I'm trying to get across.


KP IMO is getting way more opportunities via PnR than Melo is in iso. The difference is in the KP PnR, the PG needs to work with KP to get him open and get him the ball without a man on him. In the Melo iso he can bully his way to an entry pass and get off a shot on anybody 1 on 1. It's like a 95% chance of Melo getting the ball when we call for an elbow iso. It's like 50-50 KP will get the ball off the pick and roll and probably another 50-50 from there he will get the ball with good space or a good mismatch to either shoot or drive. Until he himself is calling for direct pass isolations in his sweet spots, it's always gonna be a little more difficult to get KP a shot every time you call his number want to get him a shot. It takes more work and creativity.

Hornacek has also staggered minutes so KP plays a lot with Jennings and gets featured in the 2nd unit so it's kind of a hybrid 1/2 punch. KP isn't really at the point where he can call for the ball and make things happen at the elbow or post, but if the ball swings his way he can take his man off the bounce and score on him and he is lights out if you find him open off pick and roll action. Melo is still the late game guy.

Rose is the biggest pain in the *** if you ask me. He needs to do better at finding KP. Jennings is the **** hoenstly. NY loves this dude.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:23 PM
I do think, all in all KP is a better player than Melo at this stage though. Melo is still better at creating for himself and that's important - especially at the end of tight games. He still deserves to be our late game closer and he will be for the forseeable future.

Melo will always be the alpha, and a lot of Knick fans might disagree but in Melo I see a guy who is going to happily hand over the reigns to KP in the next 1-2 years. Melo will always remain a "big brother" type of dude to him and will remain the late game closer but KP is going to take over the team and Melo will have no problem with it IMO. He has hinted plenty he knows it's gonna happen.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:26 PM
It's not about the small sample size. I'm talking about insignificance of calculated rates against minute raw numbers that barely have an iota of impact against the bottom line of a 48 minute basketball game. You could extrapolate this over an entire season and it will maintain the same insignficance if the raw number, per 36 delta remains as small as it is.

What the hell of a 54% decrease of 1.9?

I'll answer - insignificant.

If we were talking a 54% decrease of 20, or 15, or 10, or 12, I would say there is a significant impact on the bottom line.

Blocks are probably the most insignificant stat in the book - talk to me about opponents % at the rim if you want to talk impact in that area. Then I'll listen. But I'm not listening to you throw out 54% decrease trying to portray this massive deficiency in rim protection when the decrease is attributed to raw numbers less than 2.

Aren't you math guys supposed to understand weighted value or whatever the **** you nerds call it?

That's not how significant sample sizes are accounted for. More shots happen, yes, but more misses happen too. By your logic, you can take determine what kind of shooter someone is after 10 games (I just picked a number), because they've put up 100+ shots. Nevermind that they might go through a 7 game cold stretch like Jeff Teague did. He looked f'ing horrible for the first 2 weeks of the season. Then it just clicked and through the last 12 he's been pretty respectable. But again, by your logic he's a 27% 3pt shooter despite being substantially lower than what he did last year, and his career %. Because you're saying you can judge shooting in a small number of games.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:28 PM
I do think, all in all KP is a better player than Melo at this stage though. Melo is still better at creating for himself and that's important - especially at the end of tight games. He still deserves to be our late game closer and he will be for the forseeable future.

Melo will always be the alpha, and a lot of Knick fans might disagree but in Melo I see a guy who is going to happily hand over the reigns to KP in the next 1-2 years. Melo will always remain a "big brother" type of dude to him and will remain the late game closer but KP is going to take over the team and Melo will have no problem with it IMO. He has hinted plenty he knows it's gonna happen.
Agreed, 100%.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:32 PM
That's not how significant sample sizes are accounted for. More shots happen, yes, but more misses happen too. By your logic, you can take determine what kind of shooter someone is after 10 games (I just picked a number), because they've put up 100+ shots. Nevermind that they might go through a 7 game cold stretch like Jeff Teague did. He looked f'ing horrible for the first 2 weeks of the season. Then it just clicked and through the last 12 he's been pretty respectable. But again, by your logic he's a 27% 3pt shooter despite being substantially lower than what he did last year, and his career %. Because you're saying you can judge shooting in a small number of games.

I'm analyzing at a point in time - right now. His raw numbers could obviously fluctuate by seasons end. At that point I'll do the same thing and analyze the same way. I'm not sure how that is relevant. Large rate fluctuations in points per game (or 36) are more significant than large rate fluctuations in blocks per game (or 36) whether the sample size is small or large, because the raw number per 36 deltas in points are much larger than in blocks. 54% of 20 is more significant than 54% of 2, exponentially so by virtue that the larger raw number (points) directly impacts a games bottom line and the MUCH smaller number (blocks) does not directly impact a games bottom line.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 01:41 PM
D-Leethal I am heading out and will have to reply in a little bit but thanks for the insight!

Hawkeye15
12-02-2016, 01:43 PM
i mean do you guys really think he is top 20, like Calderon.

whoa whoa whoa, pump the brakes homie

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:45 PM
D-Leethal I am heading out and will have to reply in a little bit but thanks for the insight!

FWIW, they asked Porzingis if it was his or Melo's team and he said "doesn't matter". I thought it was pretty badass to not simply say "it's Melo's team". They also asked him if it's tough not to get the game winners and he said something along the lines of "Yea it's tough, I want one of those soon". KP is not passive and he is gonna challenge Melo for the spot if he hasn't already. Like I said earlier though, I think in a year or 2 as their career trajectories pass each other for good Melo is gonna concede and be fine with that. He talks all the time about how KP is gonna take over the league soon, I think he knows that means him included.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:46 PM
I'm analyzing at a point in time - right now. His raw numbers could obviously fluctuate by seasons end. At that point I'll do the same thing and analyze the same way. I'm not sure how that is relevant. Large rate fluctuations in points per game (or 36) are more significant than large rate fluctuations in blocks per game (or 36) whether the sample size is small or large, because the raw number deltas in points are much larger than in blocks. 54% of 20 is more significant than 54% of 2, exponentially so by virtue that the larger raw number (points) directly impacts a games bottom line and the MUCH smaller number (blocks) does not directly impact a games bottom line.

So you're saying because it's a bigger number, it's more important? That's grossly untrue. One of the most important statistics is turnovers, and only 14-ish happen a game, and the difference between the two teams might only be 4 or 5. Not accounting for turnovers and offensive rebounds, the number of possessions in a game are even for both teams, regardless of pace. So your scoring opportunities are the same. That's why turnovers, steals, blocks, and rebounds matter, because they give you MORE opportunities to score than your opponent.

Back to blocks, the block stat in and of itself suffers from being counted as an opponent miss AND a defensive rebound if you recover the ball, so it's value is spread out. But the value is there, because it causes a miss AND (potentially) leads to a rebound, ending the opponent's possession and ability to score. Just because only a few happen a game doesn't mean they aren't important.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 01:46 PM
whoa whoa whoa, pump the brakes homie
he's just trolling me. It's all good.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 01:56 PM
So you're saying because it's a bigger number, it's more important? That's grossly untrue. One of the most important statistics is turnovers, and only 14-ish happen a game, and the difference between the two teams might only be 4 or 5. Not accounting for turnovers and offensive rebounds, the number of possessions in a game are even for both teams, regardless of pace. So your scoring opportunities are the same. That's why turnovers, steals, blocks, and rebounds matter, because they give you MORE opportunities to score than your opponent.

Back to blocks, the block stat in and of itself suffers from being counted as an opponent miss AND a defensive rebound if you recover the ball, so it's value is spread out. But the value is there, because it causes a miss AND (potentially) leads to a rebound, ending the opponent's possession and ability to score. Just because only a few happen a game doesn't mean they aren't important.

I'm not just saying because it's a bigger number. I'm saying because it's a MUCH bigger number AND it directly impacts the bottom line in 1-1 fashion. There is realistic context that needs to be added - a point is a point to the bottom line. 10 points is 10 points the bottom line. 7 points to the bottom line is HUGE in basketball. 1 block is - what exactly? .8 blocks is - what exactly? It's damn near meaningless to the bottom line.

1 block is a fraction of 1 point if were talking direct bottom line impact. Now extrapolate that for .8 blocks to 5 points (average per 36). That fraction gets smaller and smaller. To the point where it's not even worth mentioning in a comparison of bottom line significance. I am not even going to mention the percentage of blocks that were going to miss even if unblocked, blocks that go out of bounds or blocks that go right back into the hands of the other team.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 02:02 PM
I'm not just saying because it's a bigger number. I'm saying because it's a MUCH bigger number AND it directly impacts the bottom line. There is realistic context that needs to be added - a point is a point to the bottom line. 10 points is 10 points the bottom line. 7 points to the bottom line is HUGE in basketball. 1 block is - what exactly? .8 blocks is - what exactly? It's damn near meaningless to the bottom line.

1 block is a fraction of 1 point if were talking direct bottom line impact. Now extrapolate that for .8 blocks to 5 points (average per 36). That fraction gets smaller and smaller. To the point where it's not even worth mentioning in a comparison of bottom line significance. I am not even going to mention the percentage of blocks that were going to miss even if unblocked, blocks that go out of bounds or blocks that go right back into the hands of the other team.

In a blowout the point differential is like 20. Yes points matter, but the fact is that 80%+ of the points are going to happen regardless. In a close game the difference might be 3 or 5 points. So if the +3 block differential in a game for the team eliminates 3 scoring opportunities, that's a big deal. That means that a 54% decline in the rate of blocks for a single player also matter, if those blocks aren't being picked up elsewhere. Just because they don't happen a lot doesn't mean they're not important. I don't know where you think a block is worth a fraction of a point, but that feels made up.

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 02:04 PM
And that doesn't even include the impact of a shot blocker forcing opponents to take lower percentage shots further away from the rim.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 02:05 PM
BPG is such an overrated stat. Rim protection is so much more than blocks.

Prime Tyson Chandler would block less shots than prime Amare, but one was an elite defender and DPOY and the other was a horrendous defender.

KP's defense has been damn good this season, he's a legit two way player and it has nothing to do with blocks per game. He's been an exponentially better player this year, to try to negate that and say he's "declined" in other areas based on such a silly stat like blocks is just delusional.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 02:11 PM
In a blowout the point differential is like 20. Yes points matter, but the fact is that 80%+ of the points are going to happen regardless. In a close game the difference might be 3 or 5 points. So if the +3 block differential in a game for the team eliminates 3 scoring opportunities, that's a big deal. That means that a 54% decline in the rate of blocks for a single player also matter, if those blocks aren't being picked up elsewhere. Just because they don't happen a lot doesn't mean they're not important. I don't know where you think a block is worth a fraction of a point, but that feels made up.

I think it is common sense.

For a block to be worth a point it needs to lead to a rebound that leads to a bucket. A block isn't guaranteed to end up in a rebound, and that rebound isn't guaranteed to end in a point. Wouldn't that alone make it worth a fraction of a point (less than 1-1) on average? The less than 1-1 probability for multiple variables to occur after the block that would make it worth a point on the scoreboard? Not including the amount of blocks that go back to the other team and get scored by the other team anyway after the block. Where a scored point on the scoreboard is a cut and dry 1-1. In a scenario of blocks worth in points vs points worth in points, wouldn't it be common sense that blocks would be worth less than (a fraction of) the 1-1 point?

That, and I'm not sure how you can write off the importance of points by the fact that 80%+ points will "happen anyway" and not write off 80%+ of blocks occured that lead to points will "happen anyway" too?

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 02:11 PM
BPG is such an overrated stat. Rim protection is so much more than blocks.

Prime Tyson Chandler would block less shots than prime Amare, but one was an elite defender and DPOY and the other was a horrendous defender.

KP's defense has been damn good this season, he's a legit two way player and it has nothing to do with blocks per game. He's been an exponentially better player this year, to try to negate that and say he's "declined" in other areas based on such a silly stat like blocks is just delusional.

He has been an exceptional player this year. He's just not top 20. Plenty of other players have been exceptional as well. That's the only point I've tried to make here.

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 02:13 PM
He has been an exceptional player this year. He's just not top 20. Plenty of other players have been exceptional as well. That's the only point I've tried to make here.

He definitely has a case for anywhere between op 15-25... to say top 20 is a HUGE REACH and that only knick fans would think that is just wrong... just admit it...

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 02:13 PM
And that doesn't even include the impact of a shot blocker forcing opponents to take lower percentage shots further away from the rim.

And it also doesn't include the amount of altered shots, which is why this debate on blocks is worthless and blocks are a pretty poorly-telling stat when it comes to impact. If someone comes into the lane and gets blocked is that any more valuable than someone coming into the lane and throwing up a ****** floater that bricks because KP was there?

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 02:17 PM
quick list so far off the top of my head in no particular order

LBJ
Khawi
Curry
KD
Butler
Giannis
Harden
Lillard
Derozan
Westbrook
AD

I would say those 11 have unquestionably been better... after that, you can make a case for a lot of guys but there is a 2nd tier of players like Love, CP3, Blake, KAT, etc... and I think KP is in that group, especially when you factor in his impact on the defensive end. You can probably rank KP as high as 15th or as low as 25th, but the general consensus would put him around top 20.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 02:22 PM
The KP pick and roll (or pick and pop/float) has been the number 1 option IMO this season. We go to that early and often with our guards. Melo on the elbow has been our 2nd option. The amount of shots don't really tell you the whole story. I just posted this in the Knicks forum about guys dogging Melo for taking more shots and saying he was being selfish (I don't buy it - Melo looks for KP all the time and they are rarely put into 2-man sets where they can play off each other). Forgive the arbitrary numbers - they just help reinforce the idea I'm trying to get across.

Hornacek has also staggered minutes so KP plays a lot with Jennings and gets featured in the 2nd unit so it's kind of a hybrid 1/2 punch. KP isn't really at the point where he can call for the ball and make things happen at the elbow or post, but if the ball swings his way he can take his man off the bounce and score on him and he is lights out if you find him open off pick and roll action. Melo is still the late game guy.

Rose is the biggest pain in the *** if you ask me. He needs to do better at finding KP. Jennings is the **** hoenstly. NY loves this dude.

Not a rose fan myself, Jennings ever get the starting nod/more playing time? Does he deserve it?

One of my issues this year is our complete misuse of Rubio. I think he and Towns should work the pick and roll a bit more like last year (actually Lavine/Dieng have been a nice duo for us in that sense, not sure why not Towns more). I think both Towns/KP have a great skill set for that. It sounds like overall though KP has been doing more damage working off people while Towns has probably been creating on his own/for others a bit more. As KP grows into his frame he likely develops a better post game etc. but for right now I think that is one of the few differences in these guys games. KP has closed the gap this year though, very impressive start.


I do think, all in all KP is a better player than Melo at this stage though. Melo is still better at creating for himself and that's important - especially at the end of tight games. He still deserves to be our late game closer and he will be for the forseeable future.

Melo will always be the alpha, and a lot of Knick fans might disagree but in Melo I see a guy who is going to happily hand over the reigns to KP in the next 1-2 years. Melo will always remain a "big brother" type of dude to him and will remain the late game closer but KP is going to take over the team and Melo will have no problem with it IMO. He has hinted plenty he knows it's gonna happen.

Ya I think it's at least close with KP's all around game, if he hasn't passed him yet. Being the closer doesn't always mean best player, Wiggins might close for us at times too (Lavine maybe for 3 even). Part of that comes with me asking about if he's creating for himself though because that's obviously important when you are talking MVP potential type guys.

As to the last post I didn't quote here I do like that response too, I think a lot of guys just say the vet. No reason not to give KP a shot or two at least in the RS, he deserves it probably.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 02:31 PM
quick list so far off the top of my head in no particular order

LBJ
Khawi
Curry
KD
Butler
Giannis
Harden
Lillard
Derozan
Westbrook
AD

I would say those 11 have unquestionably been better... after that, you can make a case for a lot of guys but there is a 2nd tier of players like Love, CP3, Blake, KAT, etc... and I think KP is in that group, especially when you factor in his impact on the defensive end. You can probably rank KP as high as 15th or as low as 25th, but the general consensus would put him around top 20.

I think calling him top 20 is a stretch but it is at least worth discussing some for sure. Is this list based off impact this season (so a little more production based)? Or is it just like top 20 players based on current ability (so players playing a little beneath themselves or like Draymond would be ranked higher)?

IndyRealist
12-02-2016, 02:31 PM
I think it is common sense.

For a block to be worth a point it needs to lead to a rebound that leads to a bucket. A block isn't guaranteed to end up in a rebound, and that rebound isn't guaranteed to end in a point. Wouldn't that alone make it worth a fraction of a point (less than 1-1) on average? The less than 1-1 probability for multiple variables to occur after the block that would make it worth a point on the scoreboard? Not including the amount of blocks that go back to the other team and get scored by the other team anyway after the block. Where a scored point on the scoreboard is a cut and dry 1-1. In a scenario of blocks worth in points vs points worth in points, wouldn't it be common sense that blocks would be worth less than (a fraction of) the 1-1 point?

That, and I'm not sure how you can write off the importance of points by the fact that 80%+ points will "happen anyway" and not write off 80%+ of blocks occured that lead to points will "happen anyway" too?
The majority of points happen because of the nature of the game. Possessions are equal (except as outlined above) and the difference between the best shooting team (GSW) and the worst shooting team (DAL) is 8.7% FG. That's why most points just happen, because defenses can't reduce your shooting percentage by 20-30%. The difference in points per 100 possessions is 113.8 (GSW again) and 95.6 (ORL). We look at per 100 possessions (otherwise known as off rating) because when those teams play, they get the same number of possessions (except as outlined above). One team forces the other to play either faster or slower. So you're actual marginal points is 18.2 for the best and worst offenses (per 100). A single block can swing 2.4 points theoretically (block an at rim 2pt shot @ 60% FG and creat a 2pt shot @60% FG, I just picked #s to illustrate).

nycericanguy
12-02-2016, 02:51 PM
I think calling him top 20 is a stretch but it is at least worth discussing some for sure. Is this list based off impact this season (so a little more production based)? Or is it just like top 20 players based on current ability (so players playing a little beneath themselves or like Draymond would be ranked higher)?

just based off this year... I don't think it's a stretch at all. Can you name 20 guys that have been flat out better than him without debate? even if you add Blake, Kat, CP3, Thomas, Love, PG13, DMC, Irving to that list, that's still only 19 guys, and most of those guys are very debateable. and you really have to factor in defense too.

So at worst i think you gotta put him at #25, but that's if you really give all the other guys the benefit of the doubt. realistically if you're being fair he's probably somewhere in the middle right around #20 so far this year.

AI
12-02-2016, 04:13 PM
The one thing I was worried about last year with KP (when we drafted him, not actual NBA performance) was his conditioning and the fact that he had never been asked to play so many games in Europe, and that all those minutes would take a toll on him and he would eventually wear down as would his efficiency/range.

So far this year, he's been extremely efficient and his shot from 3 has been money. Specifically at the end of games, I'm no longer worried that he'll be short on his shots because he has really improved.

At this point of the season, his USG% is identical to last years (24.6%) but he's much more efficient which is exactly what us Knicks fans wanted to see.

PPG are up from 14.3 to 21.3

FG% is up from 42% to 49%

3P% is up from 33% to 41%

REB and AST are identical to last season and BLK's down from 1.9 to 1.5; but as D-Leethal clearly stated, blocks per game is such a useless stat when it comes to proving to how good of a rim protector a player is. KP alters so many shots with his length and presence, that doesn't show up in the stat sheet or in the raw stats.

This is a 21 year old, 7"3 freak of nature with incredible shooting touch and athletic ability we're talking about. His body isn't even NBA ready yet, which is where Towns has the advantage right now. Towns is the better player right now because of that, but KP's ceiling is higher.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 04:18 PM
just based off this year... I don't think it's a stretch at all. Can you name 20 guys that have been flat out better than him without debate? even if you add Blake, Kat, CP3, Thomas, Love, PG13, DMC, Irving to that list, that's still only 19 guys, and most of those guys are very debateable. and you really have to factor in defense too.

So at worst i think you gotta put him at #25, but that's if you really give all the other guys the benefit of the doubt. realistically if you're being fair he's probably somewhere in the middle right around #20 so far this year.

What do you mean without debate? Like is their a tier of like 10+ players big that we are grouping him in and saying he COULD be called at the top? ok that is fine I guess but most probably have him outside 20 (and justifiably so) is why I call it a stretch.

You named 11 players and I think Draymond Green should be added pretty easily. Outside of scoring he is a better distributor and one of the best defenders in the league. Advanaced stats like BPM, RPM, WS/48 (although, duh GS) help to show this. That's 12. Then if you want to go just by this season then production is a major factor here and there have been a lot of guys playing above their level in this small sample. I will start with the pretty easy ones imo of Love, Blake, CP3, Cousins who all have been better in the past, have better production statistically this year and have proven elite skill sets to carry offenses too. Then the next tier but same applies of being more productive now, proven better before, with great skill sets and heavy responsibility of Conley, Towns, Kemba, Thomas. So far I have listed people more proven than KP who also have a pretty easy statistical edge on him this year production wise and kept it to the very talented. That is 20 players so far based off this year with other factors leaning their way too in some cases as mentioned. I don't think 15 is very realistic honestly because I haven't even gotten into some of the questionable yet very arguable guys yet and we already knocked him out of top 20 on my board.

When it comes to production this year George Hill has been playing above KP statistically. He also has a somewhat similar usage level while helping Utah to a top 10 offensive rating. On the other side Utah is ranked 6th due to Gobert who has better advanced stats like BPM, RPM, WS/48 due to this, while not being near the offensive player KP is he is very efficient in a limited role (little over half KP's usage and not the same creating wise even). Both have arguments. John Wall has been carrying a much heavier load and is close in the advanced metrics too, he has an argument. Drummond's production is right there too as is Whiteside's. Based off talent but having a little worse production currently we still have PG, Millsap, Gasol so if you don't want to give it on some of the guys producing more you have to give these talented guys credit too. Then what about defender like Jordan?

Dwight is close production wise too but even without him I have him in a range from 21-29 without looking up random lesser players who might have better stats arguments (I am trying to stick to very good proven players who are either as/close to as talented and/or have better production arguments to be fair here). I think he fits with that group more-so than the ones above this tier. So to me putting him in the top 30 sounds pretty safe and 20 is pushing it.

Edit: Looks like I left out Kyrie (I would put him over KP as of today), Lowry (arguable but I would lean him) and Klay who hasn't been as productive but is talented just in different situation. Not sure if anyone else or not but reading this again they stand out.

mngopher35
12-02-2016, 04:32 PM
I guess my point is I would call your at worst of 25 about where most people might have him probably and 20 being stretching it for him. Just outside the top 20 but obviously talented enough to keep shooting up. I don't mean this as a knock on him at all either because I think he has gotten right there behind Towns in the rankings (who I probably put around that 20 range as well).

Chronz
12-02-2016, 07:38 PM
quick list so far off the top of my head in no particular order

LBJ
Khawi
Curry
KD
Butler
Giannis
Harden
Lillard
Derozan
Westbrook
AD

I would say those 11 have unquestionably been better... after that, you can make a case for a lot of guys but there is a 2nd tier of players like Love, CP3, Blake, KAT, etc... and I think KP is in that group, especially when you factor in his impact on the defensive end. You can probably rank KP as high as 15th or as low as 25th, but the general consensus would put him around top 20.

Awful list and tiers. Man you overrate the **** out of him

Giannis94
12-02-2016, 08:11 PM
Thos comparisson is worse than BAES comparisson thread.

D-Leethal
12-02-2016, 10:39 PM
Mention Blake's name you betta believe Chronz will show up. It's like Candyman.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-02-2016, 11:03 PM
Towns is going to be a top 10 C of all time.

Chronz
12-02-2016, 11:09 PM
Mention Blake's name you betta believe Chronz will show up. It's like Candyman.
In all our years as frenemies, that's like the 4th nicest thing you've ever said about me

smood999
12-03-2016, 02:32 AM
KG did more with less?

The only time KG went to WCF is when he had Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell, other than that they were 1st round exits every year.

When did KG vs Dirk even start? I've always felt like it was always KG vs. Duncan. To me Dirk is a notch below those two.

KG didn't have help. You're stating this as if all playoff exits are created equally. The fact is that some players are just in more fortunate situations than others. We can play this game all day. What if Duncan was on the Wolves and KG on the Spurs? It's like being born into a rich family vs a poor family. You can't expect players just to win just because. As much as a basketball game can be effected by one player, it's still a team sport.

More-Than-Most
12-03-2016, 03:04 AM
Towns is going to be a top 10 C of all time.

Embiid will be top 3 :nod:


Need to stop with all this Porz/Towns talk... Embiid tonight 25/10/4 on 10 of 21 shots and 3 of 5 from the 3p putting him above 50 percent from the 3 this year.... Oh yea... IN 27 minutes of work and was a plus 3 where the majority of the sixers were negative double figures.... He is going to avg 25/10 while being a defensive monster next year if he is healthy... Its a wrap.

More-Than-Most
12-03-2016, 03:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSlAi6Zvbw4

Embiid highlights from tonight... I am pretty sure 8 of his 10 makes were all net including all 3 of his 3s

Crackadalic
12-03-2016, 08:15 AM
Embiid will be top 3 :nod:


Need to stop with all this Porz/Towns talk... Embiid tonight 25/10/4 on 10 of 21 shots and 3 of 5 from the 3p putting him above 50 percent from the 3 this year.... Oh yea... IN 27 minutes of work and was a plus 3 where the majority of the sixers were negative double figures.... He is going to avg 25/10 while being a defensive monster next year if he is healthy... Its a wrap.

Not to take anything from Embiid because he is more then likely the better player of the 3 but his usage rate is pretty ridiculous for someone playing only 23 minutes a game. Almost 38 usage is pretty damn high.

Definitely would like to see if he can maintain these numbers playing 35 minutes a game and playing back to backs without taking games off. Again not knocking him just want too see if he can do this for long periods

Giannis94
12-03-2016, 09:53 AM
Bae>

nycericanguy
12-03-2016, 10:34 AM
Not to take anything from Embiid because he is more then likely the better player of the 3 but his usage rate is pretty ridiculous for someone playing only 23 minutes a game. Almost 38 usage is pretty damn high.

Definitely would like to see if he can maintain these numbers playing 35 minutes a game and playing back to backs without taking games off. Again not knocking him just want too see if he can do this for long periods

yea the whole Embidd situation is weird, he's not injured but teams baby players so much these days. I feel like if a guy is gonna get hurt there's nothing you can do. Resting him half the games or half the season isn't gonna change that.

Right now Embid gets to play every game fresh, for 25 minutes, and basically can go out there and shoot 15 times in 25 minutes. We've never seen a situation like that. Like you said its not a knock on Embid because he WANTS to play, but we gotta see what he can do under more normal team circumstances. Dude has like the highest usage in NBA history...lol.

Part of being a great player is playing big minutes and playing b2b's and 4 games in 5 nights...etc... and still producing. PHI even lets Embid stay home sometimes so he doesn't have to go through the hassle of flying. If you play 2 games a week and don't have the normal rigors of an NBA schedule, it's going to make things a lot easier for you for sure.

TheDish87
12-03-2016, 11:37 AM
yea the whole Embidd situation is weird, he's not injured but teams baby players so much these days. I feel like if a guy is gonna get hurt there's nothing you can do. Resting him half the games or half the season isn't gonna change that.

Right now Embid gets to play every game fresh, for 25 minutes, and basically can go out there and shoot 15 times in 25 minutes. We've never seen a situation like that. Like you said its not a knock on Embid because he WANTS to play, but we gotta see what he can do under more normal team circumstances. Dude has like the highest usage in NBA history...lol.

Part of being a great player is playing big minutes and playing b2b's and 4 games in 5 nights...etc... and still producing. PHI even lets Embid stay home sometimes so he doesn't have to go through the hassle of flying. If you play 2 games a week and don't have the normal rigors of an NBA schedule, it's going to make things a lot easier for you for sure.

these are both really good posts and a legit point to use when comparing Embiid to other young greats. The training wheels are slowly coming off, hes up to 28 mins, hopefully back to backs are in play after the new year. His impact on the team is outrageous and we cold really use him more often lol.

ewing
12-03-2016, 11:58 AM
back to KP and Towns. In reference to KP block totals i remember early season last year he had a lot less block and then suddenly he starting having random 7 block games. We'll see what happens. Just something i remember from last year.

D-Leethal
12-03-2016, 12:31 PM
Pretty sure they just said he's the first player in NBA history to have 2+ threes and 2+ blocks in 4 straight games. The blocks are on the rise for sure.

nycericanguy
12-03-2016, 12:45 PM
Has a player ever led a team in blocks AND 3 pointers made?

KP has a real good chance of doing that this year.

D-Leethal
12-05-2016, 04:45 PM
For the folks trying to say KP's defense and rim protection is down by virtue of his block totals:


Porzingis currently leads the Knicks in defensive rebounds and blocks per game. More importantly, he’s holding opponents to 40.1 percent shooting from the field—a forced decline of 5.7 percent—and 41.2 percent shooting at the rim—the second-best mark in the NBA.

SeoulBeatz
12-05-2016, 05:38 PM
yea the whole Embidd situation is weird, he's not injured but teams baby players so much these days. I feel like if a guy is gonna get hurt there's nothing you can do. Resting him half the games or half the season isn't gonna change that.

Right now Embid gets to play every game fresh, for 25 minutes, and basically can go out there and shoot 15 times in 25 minutes. We've never seen a situation like that. Like you said its not a knock on Embid because he WANTS to play, but we gotta see what he can do under more normal team circumstances. Dude has like the highest usage in NBA history...lol.

Part of being a great player is playing big minutes and playing b2b's and 4 games in 5 nights...etc... and still producing. PHI even lets Embid stay home sometimes so he doesn't have to go through the hassle of flying. If you play 2 games a week and don't have the normal rigors of an NBA schedule, it's going to make things a lot easier for you for sure.

Fair points. It is indeed really hard to gauge how much he'll impact a game once he is playing 35+ mins and taken off restrictions.

His usage rate is, like you said, incredibly high (highest in the NBA) but that also makes it even more remarkable that he's able to play such efficient basketball (on both ends) while being the only offensive/defensive threat on the entire team.

He's currently leading the NBA in 3pt% and the Sixers defensive rating is 2nd in the NBA when he is on the court and drops to 30th when he is on the bench. The guy's impact is truly remarkable for someone who's only played 13 games of meaningful basketball in 750+ Days.

I have no problems keeping him on a relative restriction throughout the season, because I want to take every precaution possible to make sure he is 100% healthy.

I would love nothing more than to see him play every minute of every game and see what he's truly made of, but after all he's been through in two years I'm willing to be patient.

SeoulBeatz
12-05-2016, 05:57 PM
For the folks trying to say KP's defense and rim protection is down by virtue of his block totals:

Yup KP #2, Joel #1 :).

But this brings me to another question, how is Karl Anthony Towns defense?

We all know he is a force on offense, but how is his rim protection/man to man defense?

I thought he would crack the top 12 in rim protection but don't see his name on the list. I'm assuming this is due to him being more of a natural 4 (since he's really quick and his game is so versatile) than a 5, he might be drawn away from the basket more often than Embiid who can just sit in the paint.

Crackadalic
12-06-2016, 05:00 AM
Yup KP #2, Joel #1 :).

But this brings me to another question, how is Karl Anthony Towns defense?

We all know he is a force on offense, but how is his rim protection/man to man defense?

I thought he would crack the top 12 in rim protection but don't see his name on the list. I'm assuming this is due to him being more of a natural 4 (since he's really quick and his game is so versatile) than a 5, he might be drawn away from the basket more often than Embiid who can just sit in the paint.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1626157/defense-dash/

I won't get on him since he has to carry a load on offense but his defense isn't good.

KAT allows 48%, 42% on 3's and 50% on 2's

KP allows 40%, 33% on 3's and 42% on 2's

KP has been doing a good job in defending around the rim after his horrible start on defense to beginning of the year which shows how much he got better on that end as the season went on

Embiid is another whole another level so its really not fair lol. Lets keep it KAT vs KP for now

KAT offensive versatility is what outshines KP for now but KP efficient volume scoring from 3 closes the gap.

On defense KP is just better right now.

Hawkeye15
12-06-2016, 10:37 AM
KAT's defense has been disappointing. He shows flashes of rim protection, but is nowhere near consistent enough yet. It's been the much slower part of his game developmental wise so far.

nycericanguy
12-06-2016, 12:08 PM
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1626157/defense-dash/

I won't get on him since he has to carry a load on offense but his defense isn't good.

KAT allows 48%, 42% on 3's and 50% on 2's

KP allows 40%, 33% on 3's and 42% on 2's

KP has been doing a good job in defending around the rim after his horrible start on defense to beginning of the year which shows how much he got better on that end as the season went on

Embiid is another whole another level so its really not fair lol. Lets keep it KAT vs KP for now

KAT offensive versatility is what outshines KP for now but KP efficient volume scoring from 3 closes the gap.

On defense KP is just better right now.

his block rate though! he's declined!

Seizabmc
12-06-2016, 07:39 PM
As of right now towns has a slight edge over kp but I think kp will end up being the better all around player and have a better career than towns in the long run .

IndyRealist
12-06-2016, 10:50 PM
his block rate though! he's declined!

KP has been doing a good job in defending around the rim after his horrible start on defense
We need to talk about your reading comprehension. What happened through 14 games is different than what's happened through 21.

Crackadalic
12-06-2016, 11:18 PM
We need to talk about your reading comprehension. What happened through 14 games is different than what's happened through 21.

The fact that his numbers now is borderline elite on that end for a big after the bad start is even more impressive

Usually when your defensive numbers are bad it slowlys rounds out but the simple fact that it jump this much in such a short time is pretty damn amazing

Also I always look at a players last 10 instead of the whole season.

Rose had a bad statistical season last year but 2nd half he shot at a average level but you would never know that if your just looking at the whole season instead of the player high in which they are playing at his best

IndyRealist
12-06-2016, 11:34 PM
The fact that his numbers now is borderline elite on that end for a big after the bad start is even more impressive

Usually when your defensive numbers are bad it slowlys rounds out but the simple fact that it jump this much in such a short time is pretty damn amazing

Also I always look at a players last 10 instead of the whole season.

Rose had a bad statistical season last year but 2nd half he shot at a average level but you would never know that if your just looking at the whole season instead of the player high in which they are playing at his best
You'll get no argument from me. NOW he's looking amazing on both ends of the floor. But when this whole "KP is a top 20 player in a small sample size" nonsense started, he was not. When people post that kind of stuff in the main forum, they're likely to get called out. If I recall correctly, you agreed with me.

nycericanguy
12-06-2016, 11:54 PM
You'll get no argument from me. NOW he's looking amazing on both ends of the floor. But when this whole "KP is a top 20 player in a small sample size" nonsense started, he was not. When people post that kind of stuff in the main forum, they're likely to get called out. If I recall correctly, you agreed with me.

you're trying to save face, KP has looked like a top 20 player all year.

If anything he's had a rough stretch lately...yea your beloved block rate is up but he hasnt shot well lately.

So how did he go from "not an all star"... a "huge reach" for top 20, and Monroe, Porter & Reddick having better season than him to "amazing on both ends"?... because he's blocked some more shots lately?...lol

it really sounds like uve seen him play maybe once or twice this year

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 12:11 AM
you're trying to save face, KP has looked like a top 20 player all year.

If anything he's had a rough stretch lately...yea your beloved block rate is up but he hasnt shot well lately.

So how did he go from "not an all star"... a "huge reach" for top 20, and Monroe, Porter & Reddick having better season than him to "amazing on both ends"?... because he's blocked some more shots lately?...lol

it really sounds like uve seen him play maybe once or twice this year

Over 21 games, he's shooting 57.7% TS. Down from earlier this year, but still very good. That's how sample size works. He's blocking 1.8 per 36. Still down from last year, but a lot better than he was. It's called regressing to the mean. He didn't look like a top 20 player before, he doesn't look like a top 20 player now. But he certainly looks BETTER than he did 7 games ago.

ewing
12-07-2016, 12:18 AM
Over 21 games, he's shooting 57.7% TS. Down from earlier this year, but still very good. That's how sample size works. He's blocking 1.8 per 36. Still down from last year, but a lot better than he was. It's called regressing to the mean. He didn't look like a top 20 player before, he doesn't look like a top 20 player now. But he certainly looks BETTER than he did 7 games ago.

how many times have you seen KP play this year?

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 12:22 AM
how many times have you seen KP play this year?

4, maybe 5. How many times have you Dwight play this year? Or Harden? Or Chris Paul? Giannis? Butler? Or anyone else you're comparing him to when you say that KP is a top 20 player?

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 12:36 AM
I mean, what do you think I'm doing when I'm sitting here on the computer arguing basketball all night?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_vwhCz0VgnXZTFoQVVHRFpkbEE

FlashBolt
12-07-2016, 02:02 AM
4, maybe 5. How many times have you Dwight play this year? Or Harden? Or Chris Paul? Giannis? Butler? Or anyone else you're comparing him to when you say that KP is a top 20 player?

He is a top twenty player and that's coming from someone who hates giving young players that respect. Watch a Knicks game and you'll see just how much he can affect the team. You don't know how many times he's saved the Knicks. He's already understanding this game at a quicker pace than most people expected.

Crackadalic
12-07-2016, 07:26 AM
You'll get no argument from me. NOW he's looking amazing on both ends of the floor. But when this whole "KP is a top 20 player in a small sample size" nonsense started, he was not. When people post that kind of stuff in the main forum, they're likely to get called out. If I recall correctly, you agreed with me.

I agree with the not top 20. However its still debatable. Its not so crazy to think some people feel he's a top 20 player

I think the issue is your using stats as a end all instead of complimentary.

Using box score +/- isnt the best stat to use or even using last years sample size as we are debating THIS Years possibility if KP is a top 20 player THIS year so using a stat like blocks regressing from last year is pretty irrelevant if his overall play has put him in the conversation as a top tier player this year.

If every NBA player regress from last year its still irrelevant to this year as to choosing the 20 best players this year

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 07:33 AM
I agree with the not top 20. However its still debatable. Its not so crazy to think some people feel he's a top 20 player

I think the issue is your using stats as a end all instead of complimentary.

Using box score +/- isnt the best stat to use or even using last years sample size as we are debating THIS Years possibility if KP is a top 20 player THIS year so using a stat like blocks regressing from last year is pretty irrelevant if his overall play has put him in the conversation as a top tier player this year.

If every NBA player regress from last year its still irrelevant to this year as to choosing the 20 best players this year

See, that's where we disagree. 14 games is not a decent sample size for ANYTHING. You don't get to cherry pick and say "FG% has enough samples but net rating doesn't." The discussion assumes that we are accepting small sample size error by it's very nature.

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 07:37 AM
He is a top twenty player and that's coming from someone who hates giving young players that respect. Watch a Knicks game and you'll see just how much he can affect the team. You don't know how many times he's saved the Knicks. He's already understanding this game at a quicker pace than most people expected.

You just responded to my post stating I have watched Knicks games. I watch games from all over the league. That gives me a better perspective than some of these guys who only watch Knicks games. I don't disagree with your points, but that doesn't make him top 20 after 14 games. That makes him good.

KnicksorBust
12-07-2016, 08:43 AM
See, that's where we disagree. 14 games is not a decent sample size for ANYTHING. You don't get to cherry pick and say "FG% has enough samples but net rating doesn't." The discussion assumes that we are accepting small sample size error by it's very nature.

Staying out of this... :laugh:

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 08:50 AM
Staying out of this... :laugh:

I should be too. I left it alone for days but someone had to throw a jab after they thought I left.

Crackadalic
12-07-2016, 09:07 AM
See, that's where we disagree. 14 games is not a decent sample size for ANYTHING. You don't get to cherry pick and say "FG% has enough samples but net rating doesn't." The discussion assumes that we are accepting small sample size error by it's very nature.

Its 21 games and I think that's a decent sample size.

Again on KP being a top 20 player is debatable but saying no way that's possible is also ignorant.

Also the assumption that knick fans just watch Knicks basketball is wrong. A lot of the posters there watch a **** ton of NBA ball.

Another thing is different stats tell you different stories

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2730/defense-dash/

That's Dwight defensive stats

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/204001/defense-dash/

KP defensive stats

From looking at that shows KP could be the better defensive players base on % shot against but if you look at BPM Dwight has the edge etc


Dwight s also in the negative on offense despite shooting near 60% from the field vs KP who only shooting 48% has a much higher offensive rating

Is the stark reason that dwight offensive numbers due to the team or himself but its fun to debate

This is a perfect example of debating KP as a top 20 player where some feel Dwight is in that category

Again it depends what I'd more important. An offensive big who has shown elite rim protection or a high % rebounding big with elite defense. Also to note Dwight is shooting 44% from the line.

IndyRealist
12-07-2016, 09:10 AM
Its 21 games and I think that's a decent sample size.

Again on KP being a top 20 player is debatable but saying no way that's possible is also ignorant.

Also the assumption that knick fans just watch Knicks basketball is wrong. A lot of the posters there watch a **** ton of NBA ball.

Another thing is different stats tell you different stories

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2730/defense-dash/

That's Dwight defensive stats

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/204001/defense-dash/

KP defensive stats

From looking at that shows KP could be the better defensive players base on % shot against but if you look at BPM Dwight has the edge etc


Dwight s also in the negative on offense despite shooting near 60% from the field vs KP who only shooting 48% has a much higher offensive rating

Is the stark reason that dwight offensive numbers due to the team or himself but its fun to debate

This is a perfect example of debating KP as a top 20 player where some feel Dwight is in that category

Again it depends what I'd more important. An offensive big who has shown elite rim protection or a high % rebounding big with elite defense. Also to note Dwight is shooting 44% from the line.

It's 21 games NOW. It was 14 games when this argument started. A lot has changed in 50% more games

nycericanguy
12-07-2016, 09:18 AM
It's 21 games NOW. It was 14 games when this argument started. A lot has changed in 50% more games

not really, very little has changed other than KP's shot slumping somewhat.

and it wasn't 14 games when you said all the crazy stuff you said, it was 17 games, it's only been 4 or 5 games since and now you're claiming everything has changed...lol. but you like to use your 50% more games as hyperbole instead of just saying 5 more games. like your "54% block rate!..."....lol. you're one of those people that can just never admit you were wrong.

Crackadalic
12-07-2016, 09:29 AM
It's 21 games NOW. It was 14 games when this argument started. A lot has changed in 50% more games

Probably but isn't that what the NBA is? If KP wasn't in your mind a top 20 player first 14(was 17 when the argument started) then he is at least in the conversation recently since his defensive play has caught up despite the recent dip in scoring efficiency


Just out of curiosity is KP top 30 to you since top 20 is impossible for him base on what you explain?

nycericanguy
12-07-2016, 09:35 AM
Probably but isn't that what the NBA is? If KP wasn't in your mind a top 20 player first 14(was 17 when the argument started) then he is at least in the conversation recently since his defensive play has caught up despite the recent dip in scoring efficiency


Just out of curiosity is KP top 30 to you since top 20 is impossible for him base on what you explain?

i'm going to assume no since he named 30 "better players" earlier in a list that included Monroe, Kidd Gilchrist, & Reddick and said he could still name more after that. and said KP shouldn't make the all star team and that only Knick fans would ever think KP was in the discussion for top 20... even though quite a few non knick fans have chimed in and said KP is in the top 20 convo.

man I should just quote all the crazy things he said in one quote...lol

ewing
12-07-2016, 01:23 PM
4, maybe 5. How many times have you Dwight play this year? Or Harden? Or Chris Paul? Giannis? Butler? Or anyone else you're comparing him to when you say that KP is a top 20 player?

how can you say he has improved defensively in the last 7 games vs the previous 14 when you have seen him play 4 times? It doesn't make sense. They asked KP about his increased blocks over the last couple of games. He said "well I've haven't had to match up with as many stretch 4s"

D-Leethal
12-07-2016, 01:57 PM
I think it's time to let this portion of the thread die. I went at Indy and gained some newfound respect. He debated like a champ. He was going off stats 14 games in, and he is going off stats now, and the stats have gone up with the larger sample size, so has his opinion of KP. Leave it at that.

I just had issue with the statement that nobody in their right mind would be him at 20. I think 20-25 was a solid marker for him and still is. Hopefully he is closer to 15 by seasons end.

Chronz
12-07-2016, 02:34 PM
Jj has been fire to start the year. Y'all underrate him

ewing
12-09-2016, 11:39 PM
Jj has been fire to start the year. Y'all underrate him

Love me some jj


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ewing
12-09-2016, 11:41 PM
Remember when MJ had 7 straight triple doubles? Me either, he did a lot


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ewing
12-09-2016, 11:41 PM
Sorry wrong thread


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AI
12-12-2016, 02:11 AM
KP with 7 blocked shots tonight.

Crackadalic
12-12-2016, 09:31 AM
His defensive ability is all NBA defense good or if not not veryyyy soon. Happy for KP

KnicksorBust
12-12-2016, 11:37 AM
KP with 7 blocked shots tonight.

Yeah I think everyone agrees that this thread should updated after every game. Right? What was his true shooting percentage last night?

AI
12-12-2016, 01:08 PM
His first 18 games:
21.4 PPG, 7.2 REB, 49% FG%, 41% 3P%, 1.5 BLK

He followed that up with a 5 game stretch where he struggled offensively:
13.8 PPG, 8.8 REB, 31% FG%, 23% 3P%, 2.2 BLK

And then yesterday:
26 PTS, 12 REB, 53% FG%, 75% 3P%, 7 BLK

Hopefully yesterday's performance was him breaking out of his mini slump.

KnicksorBust
12-12-2016, 01:36 PM
His first 18 games:
21.4 PPG, 7.2 REB, 49% FG%, 41% 3P%, 1.5 BLK

He followed that up with a 5 game stretch where he struggled offensively:
13.8 PPG, 8.8 REB, 31% FG%, 23% 3P%, 2.2 BLK

And then yesterday:
26 PTS, 12 REB, 53% FG%, 75% 3P%, 7 BLK

Hopefully yesterday's performance was him breaking out of his mini slump.

I posted this in the other thread should have put it here but apparently that's like the first time someone has gone for +25 points, +12 boards, 3 threes and 7 blocks in my NBA History. Pretty epic. I hate the unicorn reference but it is appropriate with how rare a stat line he is capable of producing.

ChiSox219
12-13-2016, 04:36 PM
I took the pilgrimage to Mecca to see these guys face each other. Towns is so skilled but he left me with a bit of a Carlos Boozer vibe. Kat's obviously much MUCH better but his offense feels more hollow than the numbers suggest and his defense was underwhelming.

Porzingis reminded of Giannis in that it's very clear he is a talent way beyond what his production is now. Everyone knew Giannis would get there, and he has, I expect the same for KP.

zn23
12-13-2016, 05:51 PM
Funny story about how the Lakers passed up on Porzingis from Bleacher Report:


Kupchak structured Porzingis' private Lakers workout as essentially a challenge of his manhood rather than a validation of his gifts.

In doing so, the Lakers lost sight of how truly unique this 7'3" player could be, with skills at a size already forcing the NBA to adjust to him rather than vice versa.

The Lakers, though, wanted to test Porzingis' physicality, and especially his "bigness," in that workout. They overvalued Porzingis' need to prove he could play in the low post and wrongly equated his shaky stamina with his overall NBA readiness.

Lakers assistant coach Mark "Mad Dog" Madsen, notorious for physical play in his 2000-09 NBA career, was pushed on Porzingis in the workout. To put it in preschool-level terms, the workout looked a lot like Big Bird being pushed all around the court by his dinosaur-ish friend Snuffleupagus.

Then-Lakers head coach Byron Scott—whose outdated mindsets have been well documented—even joked with Lakers staffers after watching Porzingis wilt with exhaustion that Scott had better get a contract extension if the club decided to draft Porzingis and wait for him to grow up.

Scoots
12-13-2016, 06:03 PM
It's still so very very Towns ... but both generate regular WOW moments.

ChiSox219
12-13-2016, 11:28 PM
https://streamable.com/lmxx

Man look at how athletic KAT is, these guys are unreal.

KnicksorBust
12-14-2016, 08:52 AM
He blew by Mirotic and McDermott... I'm not impressed.

BKLYNpigeon
12-14-2016, 11:15 AM
Who Cares, they're both good.

personally I would take Towns all day.

you could say that Porzingis is playing a bit better right now because he's in a better situation.

nycericanguy
12-14-2016, 05:58 PM
Who Cares, they're both good.

personally I would take Towns all day.

you could say that Porzingis is playing a bit better right now because he's in a better situation.

he has a better roster around him now in terms of vets... but man the pressure of playing in NY, with the NY media, and a team wanting to win now, compared to MIN is like night and day.

GodsSon
12-14-2016, 09:19 PM
I like KP's mean streak. Playing with that fire is a skill in itself.

Towns is a better talent, but I'd gladly pick 2nd between the two and let someone else make the decision for me.

Romeo Naes
12-15-2016, 12:51 AM
Gonna be a great battle for years to come. Right now I would have to say Towns, but I really like a lot of things about KP.