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Im_in_Mia_bish
11-07-2016, 07:45 PM
So to encourage activity on this wasteland of a site, this thread needs to get stickied.

As of now:
1. Kwahi
2. Westbrook
3. LBJ
4. Harden
5. Durant

My top 5. And yes I'll be in this thread almost daily. So everyone add your two cents.

Let's goo! NBA season has started baby! Woo!

LoveCaliFan
11-07-2016, 08:12 PM
1. Leornard
2. Derozen
3. Westbrook
4. Harden
5. Giannis

tredigs
11-07-2016, 08:21 PM
A player could average 32/13/7 on elite efficiency and not garner top-3 MVP recognition from you guys? Lol woah.

FlashBolt
11-07-2016, 09:53 PM
1) Westbrook
He's averaging a near triple double and is leading his team despite being projected to not do very well. If he keeps this up, he's MVP.
2) LeBron
Near triple double as well. Leading his team to the best rank/best offense. If he can average a triple double, it will be interesting.
3) Kawhi
Two losses. Don't think he's played as well as the players above but IMO, he will probably be MVP.
4) Durant
He's on another level offensively.
5) Lillard/Harden
Decent record but not enough to put them above the other players. Crazy production from these two.

Htownballa1622
11-07-2016, 10:32 PM
A player could average 32/13/7 on elite efficiency and not garner top-3 MVP recognition from you guys? Lol woah.

Seriously. He's dragging a meh team to a respectable record.

tredigs
11-07-2016, 10:40 PM
Seriously. He's dragging a meh team to a respectable record.

Another 30/15/7 for him tonight yikes. MUCH better in the 2nd half to lead them to the win to boot. On pace for one of the truly great offensive seasons. He was my preseason choice for MVP and I think it's holding strong.

HandsOnTheWheel
11-07-2016, 10:50 PM
I'm gonna have to go with Curry.

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-07-2016, 11:05 PM
?

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-07-2016, 11:07 PM
That's true.. Harden def deserves some MVP praise. Idk, his defense leaves a lot to be desired.. he was awful tonight.. but if he's dropped 30 and 15.. hard not to give him his due respect.

tredigs
11-07-2016, 11:15 PM
That's true.. Harden def deserves some MVP praise. Idk, his defense leaves a lot to be desired.. he was awful tonight.. but if he's dropped 30 and 15.. hard not to give him his due respect.

He was fine defensively. Otto Porter and Beal had good games but certainly did not torch him. He leads the league in PER, WS/48, PPG and APG on elite efficiency. He's the MVP right now dude. To not have him top 3 is beyond absurd.

Htownballa1622
11-07-2016, 11:18 PM
Another 30/15/7 for him tonight yikes. MUCH better in the 2nd half to lead them to the win to boot. On pace for one of the truly great offensive seasons. He was my preseason choice for MVP and I think it's holding strong.

You sure did have him. I haven't seen this game or last but I have them on dvr. I just hope he stays durable because he has logged quite a bit of mins.

tredigs
11-07-2016, 11:19 PM
He was fine defensively. Otto Porter and Beal had good games but certainly did not torch him. He leads the league in PER, WS/48, PPG and APG on elite efficiency. He's the MVP right now dude. To not have him top 3 is beyond absurd.

Both of these would be All-Time NBA records btw.

Not top 3. Riiight.

tredigs
11-07-2016, 11:21 PM
You sure did have him. I haven't seen this game or last but I have them on dvr. I just hope he stays durable because he has logged quite a bit of mins.

Only ~36-38 a night dude. And frankly he makes it look easy (the anti-Westbrook). He's fine and this is actually sustainable (Advanced stats will fall, but he's going to average 30/11/6).

mightybosstone
11-07-2016, 11:21 PM
If we're going purely on production, it's Harden as a clear No. 1, and there is no close second. If he doesn't win the MVP award this year, it won't be because he wasn't the most productive player in the league. It will be because the Rockets don't win enough games for him to be in the conversation. But if the guy averages 30/12/6 and the Rockets crack a top 4-5 seed in the West, can voters really deny him the award? That will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

Htownballa1622
11-07-2016, 11:32 PM
Only ~36-38 a night dude. And frankly he makes it look easy (the anti-Westbrook). He's fine and this is actually sustainable (Advanced stats will fall, but he's going to average 30/11/6).

Very true. I guess I'm speaking more on his past few seasons as he led the league in mins played iirc.

Mike D has helped lower his mins some.

mightybosstone
11-07-2016, 11:38 PM
That's true.. Harden def deserves some MVP praise. Idk, his defense leaves a lot to be desired.. he was awful tonight.. but if he's dropped 30 and 15.. hard not to give him his due respect.

If you don't think Harden deserves top 3 consideration, I have no freaking clue what the guy has to do to be in that conversation. You clearly have not seen the guy play much in these seven games. And his defense wasn't that bad tonight. He was on Beal for most of the night, and it's not like Beal completely went off. Most of the Rockets defensive struggles tonight came from their inability to guard Wall, their poor transition defense on turnovers and the fact that they suck on the glass.

europagnpilgrim
11-08-2016, 12:04 AM
The MVP will go to the best player on the best record team if the funny media keeps to its criteria, but Harden/Westbrook/Lillard will keep it very interesting until the final game, especially Harden with that system which favors his entire skill set

on that note its looking like Lebron will get the MVP at this moment

tredigs
11-08-2016, 12:14 AM
The MVP will go to the best player on the best record team if the funny media keeps to its criteria, but Harden/Westbrook/Lillard will keep it very interesting until the final game, especially Harden with that system which favors his entire skill set

on that note its looking like Lebron will get the MVP at this moment

Won't happen this year as the Warriors and Cavs have the decked stacked in their respective conferences. It's a unique MVP year, so 3 of the top-5 player in the NBA are at a significant voting disadvantage, which opens the door for the outside candidates.

LA4life24/8
11-11-2016, 02:49 PM
Harden and westbrook on production alone.
Kawhi and lbj up there too
Dame in the running but likely to go to one of 4 above him.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2016, 03:01 PM
Harden is putting up video game numbers. He is the frontrunner, 8 games in, fwiw

Chronz
11-11-2016, 03:12 PM
A player could average 32/13/7 on elite efficiency and not garner top-3 MVP recognition from you guys? Lol woah.

Imagine a guy with superior production/efficiency and more wins..... LMFAO, you guys are too in love with superficial averages.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 03:15 PM
It feels like Harden/CP3/Kawhi then the rest of the pack right now (at least for guys who I think can sustain something close to their level). Their volumes and/or efficiency are through the roof (all three have a PER north of 32, WS/48 north of .300 and Orating =>125). Kawhi's got the elite team and the newfound elite scoring prowess along with maybe being a b2b2b DPOY winner on his side, CP3's efficiency is higher than ever (not sustainable but still) and the Clips are BY FAR the best team in the NBA to open the season, and Harden's just taking us on an offensive showcase the likes of which we've never seen (and wiling the rag tag group to tough wins while at it).

tredigs
11-11-2016, 03:17 PM
Imagine a guy with superior production/efficiency and more wins..... LMFAO, you guys are too in love with superficial averages.

Can I also imagine that guy with way better offensive teammates and the top defense in the NBA? Can I also imagine that guy in a very similar circumstance to his last half decade of action where we have a very good idea how he will finish and can surmise that he is currently outproducing his capabilities? Because as of now I'm not entirely positive Harden is significantly outproducing his expected level of play, where as with CP3 I am 100% certain that he can not keep this up (ditto Clippers).

Hawkeye15
11-11-2016, 03:26 PM
Imagine a guy with superior production/efficiency and more wins..... LMFAO, you guys are too in love with superficial averages.

voters can be in love with averages too though...

Chronz
11-11-2016, 03:31 PM
Can I also imagine that guy with way better offensive teammates and the top defense in the NBA? Can I also imagine that guy in a very similar circumstance to his last half decade of action where we have a very good idea how he will finish and can surmise that he is currently outproducing his capabilities? Because as of now I'm not entirely positive Harden is significantly outproducing his expected level of play, where as with CP3 I am 100% certain that he can not keep this up (ditto Clippers).

I can imagine things too, until they happen it wont influence my vote much. But yeah, some things reek of small sample size, which is why some of the other names given here are pretty lol worthy.


And I believe both will fall off but CP3 has been the better player over the last 2 years IMO so it would take serious improvement from Harden, his defense still stinks too. Any defensive contribution outside his own assignment is meek and playing in a system catered to pumping up his averages isn't going to sway much if its at the expense of team defense.

Like put it this way, if its true that he didn't want to share the spotlight with Dwight and couldn't make it work with him, then isn't he at least partly at fault for their pitiful defensive showing? Dwight has been holding it down in the ATL. Morey surrounded Harden with guys to help pump up his production at the expense of team defense from what I've seen and while its been impressive, hes going to slow down as well. With CP3, I feel comfortable with the thought that he will definitely be the superior 2-way player and lead his team through his intangibles far more than I've ever seen from Harden. If the production levels aren't drastically different, Im not voting his way. Rather stick with my Bron prediction if we're assuming things.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 03:33 PM
voters can be in love with averages too though...

As evident by Harden not making an All-NBA team last year despite gaudy per game averages as a result of little intangibles.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 03:43 PM
I can imagine things too, until they happen it wont influence my vote much. But yeah, some things reek of small sample size, which is why some of the other names given here are pretty lol worthy.


And I believe both will fall off but CP3 has been the better player over the last 2 years IMO so it would take serious improvement from Harden, his defense still stinks too. Any defensive contribution outside his own assignment is meek and playing in a system catered to pumping up his averages isn't going to sway much if its at the expense of team defense.

Like put it this way, if its true that he didn't want to share the spotlight with Dwight and couldn't make it work with him, then isn't he at least partly at fault for their pitiful defensive showing? Dwight has been holding it down in the ATL. Morey surrounded Harden with guys to help pump up his production at the expense of team defense from what I've seen and while its been impressive, hes going to slow down as well. With CP3, I feel comfortable with the thought that he will definitely be the superior 2-way player and lead his team through his intangibles far more than I've ever seen from Harden. If the production levels aren't drastically different, Im not voting his way. Rather stick with my Bron prediction if we're assuming things.

CP3 is painfully consistent and they had no moving pieces or change to his role that would indicate any sort of wild progression in his play (from the 31 yr old 12 yr NBA veteran). We KNOW what we're going to get from him. He's going to average ~19/10/4 on ~47/38/88 +2 spg, 2.5 TO and a PER of 27 and WS/48 around .270 (a bit higher this season due to them looking like an improved squad). Right now his PER is 33.9 (never been above 27 in his half decade in LA), his WS/48 is .440 (never been above .287 in LA). Even things like his steal% at 5.1 (career high 3.9 in New Orleans) are going to drop precipitously. We KNOW this. Now, I'm not saying he can't have a career year for a career team and warrant serious MVP consideration, but I'm not overly concerned with his ridiculous advanced metrics to start the year, as I know relatively exactly where they will readjust to.

Harden will fall off, but not nearly as much. 30/10/7 on elite percentages for a team who has a **** defense that he may carry to 50 wins is very much in play. It's the Harden 2015 MVP campaign all over again, only this time with even more impressive production, no top 50 player on his team, and 2 of the top 5 players in the world largely cancelling themselves out from a voters perspective (don't look now, but Curry looks back in 2015 reg season form).

TheDish87
11-11-2016, 04:00 PM
Harden
Westbrook
Leonard
James

Embiid

Hawkeye15
11-11-2016, 04:06 PM
As evident by Harden not making an All-NBA team last year despite gaudy per game averages as a result of little intangibles.

Houston was also a trainwreck last year. They lost 15 games more than the previous year. That hurt him badly.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 04:13 PM
Houston was also a trainwreck last year. They lost 15 games more than the previous year. That hurt him badly.

It was that coupled with them wanting a Raptor on one of the teams (lost the #1 seed to Cleveland by 1 game), so Lowry got that nod, and the Warriors winning 73 got them Klay on a squad over him also. While the All-NBA is less about narrative than MVP, it's still about narrative. He was certainly playing at an All-NBA level (really not that far off his MVP-runner up season the prior year), but this year he is a different beast. I think this season goes down as his finest hour from an individual standpoint (as in 08-10 for D Wade). ~27 years old is normally the year.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 04:19 PM
CP3 is painfully consistent and they had no moving pieces or change to his role that would indicate any sort of wild progression in his play (from the 31 yr old 12 yr NBA veteran).
Thats actually not true. There are 2 key developments to keep an eye on, firstly hes FINALLY being taken off primary defensive duties at the point of attack. Prince Moute and Austin Rivers are being tasked with more on that end. Secondly, Blake is at the point of his career where he needs to to do more of the heavy lifting. What these 2 shifts have done is allow CP3 more energy to expend offensively and given him more leeway with playing the passing lanes, all while simultaneously easing the burden on his own playmaking. What he has to prove is that he can continue draining shots off outlet opportunities because its never really been his game . If everything goes as planned, I wouldn't be surprised to see him have his most efficient 2-way season ever, should be his lowest turnover-highest steals rate of his career. I dont expect him to keep canning shots how he has but thus far he has, I admit it will matter more in the linear weights but in terms of efficiency, we really could see the best from him we've ever seen.




We KNOW what we're going to get from him. He's going to average ~19/10/4 on ~47/38/88 +2 spg, 2.5 TO and a PER of 27 and WS/48 around .270 (a bit higher this season due to them looking like an improved squad). Right now his PER is 33.9 (never been above 27 in his half decade in LA), his WS/48 is .440 (never been above .287 in LA). Even things like his steal% at 5.1 (career high 3.9 in New Orleans) are going to drop precipitously. We KNOW this. Now, I'm not saying he can't have a career year for a career team and warrant serious MVP consideration, but I'm not overly concerned with his ridiculous advanced metrics to start the year, as I know relatively exactly where they will readjust to.

Harden will fall off, but not nearly as much. 30/10/7 on elite percentages for a team who has a **** defense that he may carry to 50 wins is very much in play. It's the Harden 2015 MVP campaign all over again, only this time with even more impressive production, no top 50 player on his team, and 2 of the top 5 players in the world largely cancelling themselves out from a voters perspective (don't look now, but Curry looks back in 2015 reg season form).

We shall see but the utter lack of defense from that squad will and should count against him.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 04:23 PM
Houston was also a trainwreck last year. They lost 15 games more than the previous year. That hurt him badly.

As it should have, you dont get that back unless you turn it back around. Thats kind of my point

Chronz
11-11-2016, 04:33 PM
It was that coupled with them wanting a Raptor on one of the teams (lost the #1 seed to Cleveland by 1 game), so Lowry got that nod, and the Warriors winning 73 got them Klay on a squad over him also. While the All-NBA is less about narrative than MVP, it's still about narrative. He was certainly playing at an All-NBA level (really not that far off his MVP-runner up season the prior year), but this year he is a different beast. I think this season goes down as his finest hour from an individual standpoint (as in 08-10 for D Wade). ~27 years old is normally the year.
You're prolly right, with this production (30PER-.190WS), 48 wins should get the nod.

Still tho, those are absurdly high turnover numbers on the most turnover prone team in the league, surely thats not going to help his teams defensive stature.

I think hes overstepping his role to a slight degree, sorta how RWB played when KD went out with injury and he was racking up triple doubles. Its largely exonerated by his production and lack of viable options but you always got the idea that it was somewhat at the expense of establishing other players. Guys like JJ Reddick commented on it and I cant feel but think thats happening with both of them today. Its not that they have no other choice, its that their games dont lend themselves to any other choice and are built around as such.

Let me ask you guys this, would James Harden be doing this if Dwight was still around?

Hawkeye15
11-11-2016, 04:37 PM
As it should have, you dont get that back unless you turn it back around. Thats kind of my point

well yeah, that much I agree with.

It's also why I said, "to this point, 8 games in, fwiw" when I stated Harden is probably the front runner. I don't think he will be there in the end, Houston probably won't win nearly enough games. I am not sure he is one of the top 4-5 players in the game, but he is putting up some serious numbers to start the season.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 04:39 PM
Right now its CP3, Kawhi and then Harden

By the end of the year I expect to be Kawhi, Bron and then Harden.

Keep an eye on Blake the next few weeks, hes been alil inconsistent to start the season but statistically hes off to a career year.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 04:46 PM
That is a good point on him being alleviated in his defensive duties to an extent this year as far as it relates to energy for offense and leeway in the passing lanes for steals. I'm not sure it's a ringing endorsement for him as an overall talent over years past, but I buy it inflating certain aspects of his game. It's worth mentioning though that similarly to OKC, this is a team winning its games on the backs of their defense this year. Clips O is certainly far better than OKC's (and CP3's O is certainly at a higher level than Westbrook's this season), but I don't think that distinction should be overlooked when looking at the teams success. As a SG, Harden only has so much impact defensively. That team simply sucks on that end, and he can only shoulder a small small amount of that blame (and in fact in the early going opposing teams only have a 107 Orating with him on, and 115 with him off. OFFENSIVELY? They have a 118 ORating with him on, and 87 with him off. +39.2 for Harden overall. Even in the early going that seems like a typo, but those are real #'s. CP3's is amazing in its own right, and half that amount).

Chronz
11-11-2016, 04:59 PM
That is a good point on him being alleviated in his defensive duties to an extent this year as far as it relates to energy for offense and leeway in the passing lanes for steals. I'm not sure it's a ringing endorsement for him as an overall talent over years past, but I buy it inflating certain aspects of his game. It's worth mentioning though that similarly to OKC, this is a team winning its games on the backs of their defense this year. Clips O is certainly far better than OKC's (and CP3's O is certainly at a higher level than Westbrook's this season), but I don't think that distinction should be overlooked when looking at the teams success. As a SG, Harden only has so much impact defensively. That team simply sucks on that end, and he can only shoulder a small small amount of that blame (and in fact in the early going opposing teams only have a 107 Orating with him on, and 115 with him off. OFFENSIVELY? They have a 118 ORating with him on, and 87 with him off. +39.2 for Harden overall. Even in the early going that seems like a typo, but those are real #'s. CP3's is amazing in its own right, and half that amount).
Both RWB and Harden have the most on their plate, necessitated by a dearth of talent or their own play styles, I dont like either.

Historically, Harden has been a special level of bad defensively that it negatively influences the team more than his position warrants. And his impact defensively should go beyond his own contributions, it should be about setting an example that harbors a defensive culture. Even when CP3 was elite defensively on a bad defensive team, he set the tone that his teammates followed and have now grown into. Im not going to ignore the years of work CP3 has put in because hes finally getting the help on that end. He was the guy who cultivated it and is in fact contributing to that defense, I know it wont last but it was funny seeing him lead the league in DRTG right now.

Harden's lack of defense go beyond his own shortcomings but how it influences those around him and right now, Im not seeing anyone giving a **** on that end. Harden is monopolizing the ball AND not playing defense, I dont know of many players who would compete defensively in such an environment and kind of explains Dwights own rebirth in Atlanta.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 05:22 PM
Both RWB and Harden have the most on their plate, necessitated by a dearth of talent or their own play styles, I dont like either.

Historically, Harden has been a special level of bad defensively that it negatively influences the team more than his position warrants. And his impact defensively should go beyond his own contributions, it should be about setting an example that harbors a defensive culture. Even when CP3 was elite defensively on a bad defensive team, he set the tone that his teammates followed and have now grown into. Im not going to ignore the years of work CP3 has put in because hes finally getting the help on that end. He was the guy who cultivated it and is in fact contributing to that defense, I know it wont last but it was funny seeing him lead the league in DRTG right now.

Harden's lack of defense go beyond his own shortcomings but how it influences those around him and right now, Im not seeing anyone giving a **** on that end. Harden is monopolizing the ball AND not playing defense, I dont know of many players who would compete defensively in such an environment and kind of explains Dwights own rebirth in Atlanta.

Frankly I think Harden's defense has been perfectly fine this season. He has a reputation that supersedes him so it's a chore for him to even be recognized as "average", but he is not the root issue there. You're talking about a team with essentially no +defenders and a coach that's not exactly known for his prowess on that end. I would say that saying that Harden is "monopolizing" the offense is just flat out disrespect and completely false. He's BY FAR the best player on the team with the ball in his hands, but this is a guy who is proving to be entirely unselfish and simply making the best play for them time and time again (resulting in a 5-3 record despite a **** D and all road games). His USG% would not rank in the top-30 in history. His Assist% would rank #1 in NBA history by a wide margin. Doesn't strike me as a "monopolizer". Strikes me as a dominant scorer simultaneously becoming an astonishingly dominant playmaker.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 05:41 PM
Frankly I think Harden's defense has been perfectly fine this season. He has a reputation that supersedes him so it's a chore for him to even be recognized as "average", but he is not the root issue there. You're talking about a team with essentially no +defenders and a coach that's not exactly known for his prowess on that end. I would say that saying that Harden is "monopolizing" the offense is just flat out disrespect and completely false. He's BY FAR the best player on the team with the ball in his hands, but this is a guy who is proving to be entirely unselfish and simply making the best play for them time and time again (resulting in a 5-3 record despite a **** D and all road games). His USG% would not rank in the top-30 in history. His Assist% would rank #1 in NBA history by a wide margin. Doesn't strike me as a "monopolizer". Strikes me as a dominant scorer simultaneously becoming an astonishingly dominant playmaker.

I disagree on all counts, his defense is still subpar and the well deserved rep has had long lasting implications for the franchise with regards to their defensive culture.

Like do you feel the same about RWB because hes basically fulfilling the same role just with far less spacing around him but more defensive help. I see the 2 as equals and to me the Thunder are overachieving to a greater degree, granted its a result of that defense but thats the give and take given the supporting cast. RWB has it harder offensively than any other star in the league.

I just have Harden this high strictly on his output but even then Im questioning myself and it goes back to what Reddick brought up, I dont yet know if he HAS to do this because I haven't seen the long term influence on his teammates such ball hoggery will have.

Miltstar
11-11-2016, 06:01 PM
I cant take this thread seriously when Demar isn't even being discussed.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 06:08 PM
I disagree on all counts, his defense is still subpar and the well deserved rep has had long lasting implications for the franchise with regards to their defensive culture.

Like do you feel the same about RWB because hes basically fulfilling the same role just with far less spacing around him but more defensive help. I see the 2 as equals and to me the Thunder are overachieving to a greater degree, granted its a result of that defense but thats the give and take given the supporting cast. RWB has it harder offensively than any other star in the league.

I just have Harden this high strictly on his output but even then Im questioning myself and it goes back to what Reddick brought up, I dont yet know if he HAS to do this because I haven't seen the long term influence on his teammates such ball hoggery will have.

Westbrook has even less offensive help. OK, but he's also the head of a terrible offense. So? That team is a top defense this year, and Westbrook is not close to being a catalyst for that. He has fallen off (predictably to me) after his wild start, where as Harden is staying efficient and maintaining course.

BTW it is especially hilarious to me that your adjectives in describing Harden fall under "monopolizing ball-hoggery" as he single-handily (truly, no more stark contrasting offensive on/off I've ever seen, even in a ~10 game sample size) saves his team on offense every night and is dolling out THE highest assist% in NBA history. Lol the hate is real for that dude. I told you he'd be in line for MVP when he was still 20:1 (before the media heads started catching on and shifting the price). You shoulda jumped on when you had the chance.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 06:30 PM
I cant take this thread seriously when Demar isn't even being discussed.
I felt the same way when CP3 wasn't in the discussion but its sooo early that none of this talk is relevant. We're all just excited to talk about ANYTHING imo

Chronz
11-11-2016, 06:46 PM
Westbrook has even less offensive help. OK, but he's also the head of a terrible offense. So? That team is a top defense this year, and Westbrook is not close to being a catalyst for that. He has fallen off (predictably to me) after his wild start, where as Harden is staying efficient and maintaining course.

BTW it is especially hilarious to me that your adjectives in describing Harden fall under "monopolizing ball-hoggery" as he single-handily (truly, no more stark contrasting offensive on/off I've ever seen, even in a ~10 game sample size) saves his team on offense every night and is dolling out THE highest assist% in NBA history. Lol the hate is real for that dude. I told you he'd be in line for MVP when he was still 20:1 (before the media heads started catching on and shifting the price). You shoulda jumped on when you had the chance.
He has way less offensive help. Let me put it to you this way, by essentially swapping Dwight for EG/Anderson, do you feel Harden has more or less offensive help than he did last year cuz hes doing alot more statistically. There are 2 ways to view this, at this point neither is clear. Is he doing this because he has less help or is he doing this because he has more help and is therefore better able to exploit defenses with his style.

Hilarity aside, the facts are that his usage/assist/touches counts all point to the highest level of ball dominance we've ever seen in recent history, so its still ball dominance of the highest order. Its not hate to call a spade a spade and I'd pass on that bet again today so no thanks. Just like RWB and OKC, I highly doubt the Rockets will be good enough but we'll see. They've certainly overachieved by win loss and the media must love that.

Chronz
11-11-2016, 07:35 PM
Wait, what were the preseason odds on Harden to win MVP again? Were they that much lower than Bron and Kawhi? My friends and I split the bet, I went Bron-Kawhi he went Harden-Kawhi and hes yet to lord it over me at this point.

tredigs
11-11-2016, 09:15 PM
Wait, what were the preseason odds on Harden to win MVP again? Were they that much lower than Bron and Kawhi? My friends and I split the bet, I went Bron-Kawhi he went Harden-Kawhi and hes yet to lord it over me at this point.

When we first talked 'Bron was what 6:1? Not sure on him off the top of my head. But Kawhi was 10:1 most places and Harden was 20:1. But literally like a day or two after that Bill Simmons and his group started talking MVP Odds publicly, then the ESPN True Hoop guys and on down. And whether it was their influence coupled with some large bets or something else, Harden's odds started plummeting and finally rested closer to 10:1. 20:1 was pretty ridiculously great value though (that said I didn't bet it. I've never bet on a "future" other than Golden State to win the 2013/14 title at like 80:1, because I started to see the writing on the wall and it was worth $100).

Bostonjorge
11-11-2016, 09:20 PM
Kyrie is the leading scorer for the best ranked offense

Chronz
11-11-2016, 09:27 PM
Kyrie is the leading scorer for the best ranked offense

Last I checked it was actually GS with that honor and KD VASTLY outproduces the likes of Kyrie.

On Kyries own team he grades out as the 3rd most productive player there. Call whatever intangibles/contextual arguments you want, the debate starts with those facts.

europagnpilgrim
11-12-2016, 02:05 AM
Won't happen this year as the Warriors and Cavs have the decked stacked in their respective conferences. It's a unique MVP year, so 3 of the top-5 player in the NBA are at a significant voting disadvantage, which opens the door for the outside candidates.

You could be right because the funny media can do as they feel but based on it since like Nash won back to back it seems to favor the best player on the best winning team or at worst a top 2-3 record, Harden can make it very interesting if he keeps Rockets a top 4 seed in the West with his Archibald/Answer type scoring/assists numbers, as can Russ

Lebron is the favorite for now having the best w-l record with the numbers but its way too early to judge right now, Harden/KD is the co-favorite with Lillard/Russ/Curry all lurking to snatch the award also

Lebron should have at least 1 more nba mvp to his resume so they might make up for it and give him one last trophy but like I said you never know what the funny fickled media guys might do

this year isn't all that unique since you have had multiple MVP candidates in past years as well, but it came down to w-l record, TMAC was mvp candidate but his team record wasn't up to par in his Orlando days, and many more examples of outside candidates came up short also, will be the same this year as well if they stick to the script

Miltstar
11-12-2016, 10:29 AM
I know all I seem to do around here lately is preach Derozan, but I keep seeing these like top 5's, top 10's and he doesn't even seem like an afterthought. The man is leading the league in scoring, averaging 34 a game and making it look easy. What more does he have to do to get some respect? The knock on Demar has always been that he is a "chucker" but he's shooting 53% so far. I know it's SSS but he really looks to have taken the next step. He disappeared half the game last night and still wound up with 34.

I'm not trying to take anything away from any of the other candidates, Harden is playing great, Paul's got his team out to the best record, Lebron is almost averaging a triple double, Curry's breaking records as usual, Kawhi, Lillard, AD all playing great to. But for Derozan's name to consistantly not come up over and over really bothers me for some reason haha the Raptors are a top 5 team in the league and he's doing ******* that ain't been done since Jordan.

Rant over

tredigs
11-12-2016, 11:22 AM
I know all I seem to do around here lately is preach Derozan, but I keep seeing these like top 5's, top 10's and he doesn't even seem like an afterthought. The man is leading the league in scoring, averaging 34 a game and making it look easy. What more does he have to do to get some respect? The knock on Demar has always been that he is a "chucker" but he's shooting 53% so far. I know it's SSS but he really looks to have taken the next step. He disappeared half the game last night and still wound up with 34.

I'm not trying to take anything away from any of the other candidates, Harden is playing great, Paul's got his team out to the best record, Lebron is almost averaging a triple double, Curry's breaking records as usual, Kawhi, Lillard, AD all playing great to. But for Derozan's name to consistantly not come up over and over really bothers me for some reason haha the Raptors are a top 5 team in the league and he's doing ******* that ain't been done since Jordan.

Rant over
Derozan.

Bausman
11-12-2016, 02:02 PM
Dd

Miltstar
11-12-2016, 02:18 PM
Halaifreakinlooya mother trucker

Im_in_Mia_bish
11-15-2016, 10:54 PM
Top 2 so far-

Beard
Derozan

Even tho derozan was in brick mode tonight

Scoots
12-05-2016, 02:01 PM
Harden took the opportunity of his very flashy shoe launch to talk himself up for MVP. I don't know about the voters but for me I always find it distasteful when a player is quick to say he's the best.

Harden referred to himself as "The Beard" ... not just 3rd person, but 3rd person to his nickname.

Talked about his "historic performance" this season.

Called his "supporting cast" a "masterpiece".

"Iím not surprised how quickly it's come together. I was already a playmaker, I was already unselfish."

On his game "youíve got a lot of people doing my moves, going to the basket, looking for contact, all that stuff. Thatís what you call being a trendsetter"

I still think his shoe is ugly, but with typical restraint Harden said "Itís a perfect shoe."

Harden is a hell of a player ... but he just might have the biggest ego in the NBA right now. :)

Scoots
12-05-2016, 02:05 PM
NBA.com current ranks:

#1 Westbrook
#2 Harden
#3 Durant
#4 LeBron

ManRam
12-05-2016, 02:07 PM
I kinda have a hard time distinguishing the top contenders at this point, but I think Harden would be my pick right now. KD and Russ are right there. Chris Paul is in my top-5. Leonard or LeBron probably round it out.

Jimmy Butler is more of a legit candidate than DeRozan IMO.

FlashBolt
12-05-2016, 04:28 PM
Harden took the opportunity of his very flashy shoe launch to talk himself up for MVP. I don't know about the voters but for me I always find it distasteful when a player is quick to say he's the best.

Harden referred to himself as "The Beard" ... not just 3rd person, but 3rd person to his nickname.

Talked about his "historic performance" this season.

Called his "supporting cast" a "masterpiece".

"Iím not surprised how quickly it's come together. I was already a playmaker, I was already unselfish."

On his game "youíve got a lot of people doing my moves, going to the basket, looking for contact, all that stuff. Thatís what you call being a trendsetter"

I still think his shoe is ugly, but with typical restraint Harden said "Itís a perfect shoe."

Harden is a hell of a player ... but he just might have the biggest ego in the NBA right now. :)

You can't blame the guy. Dude has been getting snubbed in large part because of his lack of defense -- which is blown way out of proportion. How did this guy not make an All-NBA team but Klay Thompson did? I'm not sure what went wrong. Klay Thompson was never a better player than Harden. Not close.

rhino17
12-05-2016, 05:21 PM
2 horse race between Westbrook and harden. I think Westbrook has the edge right now, but I think Houston has a better chance of finishing with a higher seed which could give Harden the advantage down the stretch

Scoots
12-05-2016, 06:17 PM
You can't blame the guy. Dude has been getting snubbed in large part because of his lack of defense -- which is blown way out of proportion. How did this guy not make an All-NBA team but Klay Thompson did? I'm not sure what went wrong. Klay Thompson was never a better player than Harden. Not close.

I think his perceived attitude had some effect on it too, and his D is blown out of proportion, he did earn that reputation in the past and he's been paying for it since.

For me if either RW or JH get their teams into the top 4 seeds in the playoffs then they win MVP ... if both do it's probably going to go to the player with the better numbers between those 2 (I'd guess Harden by seasons end). If neither of them make it into the top half of the playoff seeds it gets a lot more complex.

Shammyguy3
12-05-2016, 10:13 PM
I kinda have a hard time distinguishing the top contenders at this point, but I think Harden would be my pick right now. KD and Russ are right there. Chris Paul is in my top-5. Leonard or LeBron probably round it out.

Jimmy Butler is more of a legit candidate than DeRozan IMO.

This says a lot because you were very critical of Butler two years ago about him being a good player especially offensively