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mrblisterdundee
10-12-2016, 05:40 PM
I have yet another new take on the all-time franchise team.
Create a 12-player roster from what you think are the best players your franchise could have drafted but didn't, or traded before they ever played a game.
Please follow these rules:
1. Your team must have been able to draft the player. This includes players your team could have drafted, had they not made a draft-day trade changing their position in the draft. For instance, the Trailblazers could have drafted Chris Paul, had they not traded picks in 2005 and ended up taking Martell Webster.
2. The players cannot have played a single game for your franchise, even if they were traded two or three games into their first season.
Beyond basic draft research, this will challenge you to find the best players who went later in the draft guys like Manu Ginobili and Draymond Green. A lot of people's teams will be similar, but there will be key differences.
3. You can only have as many players from a draft as your team had picks in that draft that were higher than where the player you want was selected. For example, the Blazers selected Meyers Leonard with the 11th pick in the 2012 draft. They could have taken Green (35th pick) in 2012, but not along with Khris Middleton (39th pick), because the Blazers' next pick after 11th was the 40th. This rule helps prevent someone from stacking up a ton if missed opportunities from a stacked draft.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2016, 05:43 PM
as a Wolves fan, this will send me into rehab, no can do

mrblisterdundee
10-12-2016, 05:51 PM
as a Wolves fan, this will send me into rehab, no can do

You're saying this to a Trailblazers fan?

valade16
10-12-2016, 07:32 PM
Your saying this to a Trailblazers fan?

:laugh2: ... :(

JAZZNC
10-12-2016, 08:02 PM
Chris Paul
Kawhi
Paul George
Nique

I know that's only 4 but that's the ones that come to mind immediately for the Jazz. Although PG instead of Hayward is to me kind of a wash.

tredigs
10-12-2016, 08:35 PM
This revisionist history obviously looks worse today than it did at the time for all parties (drafting is extremely hard), but here it is with some research help for a little fun...

'95 the Warriors took Joe Smith #1 overall. Could've gone with a similar style prospect in one Kevin Garnett (went 5th).
'96 they went with Todd Fuller at #11. Kobe went 15th.
'97 they opted for Adonal Foyle at #7 one spot ahead of T-Mac.
'98 they actually drafted Vince Carter 5th then immediately traded him for Antawn Jamison.

They've been much better drafting in recent years but yeah, those ones are tough to swallow.

Scoots
10-12-2016, 10:06 PM
Warriors fan ... we effectively traded McHale and Parrish to the Celtics for Joe Barry Carrol, traded Webber after 1 year, Mitch Richmond after 3 years, lost Gilbert Arenas after 2, let Tim Hardaway leave after 5 seasons. And if we look at the draft, the Warriors picked Todd Fuller over Kobe Bryant and Adonal Foyle over Tracy McGrady in back to back years. This thread is not for me either.

mrblisterdundee
10-12-2016, 11:44 PM
My Trailblazers:

PG: Chris Paul, Tony Parker
SG: Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Manu Ginobili
SF: Kevin Durant, Julius Erving, Alex English
PF: Larry Bird, Draymond Green
C: Robert Parish, Moses Malone

I didn't realize it, but in 1978, the Blazers traded up from No. 3 to No. 1, and took Mychal Thompson over Larry Bird!

valade16
10-13-2016, 12:12 PM
My Trailblazers:

PG: Chris Paul, Tony Parker
SG: Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Manu Ginobili
SF: Kevin Durant, Julius Erving, Alex English
PF: Larry Bird, Draymond Green
C: Robert Parish, Moses Malone

I didn't realize it, but in 1978, the Blazers traded up from No. 3 to No. 1, and took Mychal Thompson over Larry Bird!

We have a great history of coming close and not taking the best players.

We took LaRue Martin 1st overall over Bob McAdoo who went 2nd in 1972.
We took Mychal Thompson 1st overall over Larry Bird who went 6th in 1978.
We drafted Moses Malone in the ABA supplemental draft and then traded him.
We drafted Sam Bowie 2nd overall over Michael Jordan who went 3rd in 1984.
We drafted Greg Oden 1st overall over Kevin Durant who went 2nd in 2007.

That right there is enough for probably the best "what if" team of all-time. I mean, these aren't like we drafted a guy 4th and 27th was a guy it turns out everyone should have drafted. These were prime draft spots and the HOF guy was taken almost immediately after our pick in every case.

Our 4 #1 overall picks through history were:

LaRue Martin
Bill Walton
Mychal Thompson
Greg Oden

Even the one who "panned out" got hurt almost immediately. Our 4 #1 overall picks provided 1 1/2 years of elite level play. That is abysmal.

PhillyFaninLA
10-13-2016, 12:34 PM
My Trailblazers:

PG: Chris Paul, Tony Parker
SG: Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Manu Ginobili
SF: Kevin Durant, Julius Erving, Alex English
PF: Larry Bird, Draymond Green
C: Robert Parish, Moses Malone

I didn't realize it, but in 1978, the Blazers traded up from No. 3 to No. 1, and took Mychal Thompson over Larry Bird!

wow my sincere sympathies, that is tough

FlashBolt
10-13-2016, 02:17 PM
I kinda want Blazers to win now lol

KnicksorBust
10-13-2016, 02:19 PM
Yeah I don't want to hear it from Warriors fans and your current dream team. No one is going to cry for you. :laugh:

Some of us have been suffering since we were born. I'm not going to bother posting my Knicks missed-opportunities team because that Blazers lineup is just terrifying. BTW start Moses Malone. You'd have top 6 GOAT players at every position starting. That's insane.

JAZZNC
10-13-2016, 03:20 PM
I'm still having nightmares over taking Alec Burkes over Kawhi....the defense the current Jazz squad would have would be absolutely filthy.

And yeah, seeing these Blazer fans posts makes me sad haha! That is just tough to look at.

Jeffy25
10-13-2016, 03:52 PM
Is there any team with not at least 3 regrets?

YAALREADYKNO
10-13-2016, 03:55 PM
The mavs back in the day smh

1. Isiah Thomas in '81. Took Mark Aguirre #1 (got Rolando Blackman at #9)
2. Clyde Drexler in '83. Had not 1 but 2 chances to draft him. Instead took Dale Ellis at #9 and Derrick Harper at #11 Clyde went #14
3.Charles Barkley in '84. Took Sam Perkins at #3 instead
4.John Stockton in '84. Took Terence Stansbury at #15 Stockton went #16
5.Karl Malone in '85 took Detlef Schremph at #8 and Karl said in one interview that he was mad at the mavs because the mavs had told him they were gonna draft him at that spot. He ended up going #13
6.Joe Dumars in '85 took Bill Wennington at #16 Dumars went 2 spots later to Detroit at #18
7.Dennis Rodman in '86. Took Roy Tarpley at #7. It wasn't a playing issue with Tarpley but he had drug and alcohol abuse and was banned by the NBA. Rodman went #27
8.Tim Hardaway in '89 took Randy White at #8. Hardaway went #14
9.Kobe Bryant in '96 took samaki walker at #9 Kobe went #13
10.Jermaine O'Neal in '96 too

Damn they could've been the bad boy Pistons instead of the bad boy Pistons smh

celticsman2009
10-13-2016, 04:34 PM
Boston

97 Draft (Got porked by the ping pong balls and lost out on Duncan)

Took Ron Mercer at #6 T-Mac went #9

1989

Took Michael Smith #13 Tim Hardaway went #14 Kemp went #17

2008

Took JR Giddens #30 Deandre Jordan went #35

2011

Traded with Brooklyn and drafted JuJuan Johnson #25/27 Jimmy Butler went #30

2013

Took Kelly Olynyk #13 Greek Freak went #15


Can we also talk about how the 2000 draft might have been the worst draft ever?

JasonJohnHorn
10-13-2016, 07:23 PM
Chris Paul
Kawhi
Paul George
Nique

I know that's only 4 but that's the ones that come to mind immediately for the Jazz. Although PG instead of Hayward is to me kind of a wash.

A lot of people passed on Kawhi....and George... those were tough calls.

Nique... I'm not crazy about. I think the Hawks wasted a lot of time trying to build around him, and the Jazz would have as well. If not simply traded him.

But the name that sticks out on your list is Chris Paul.

To think that Jerry Sloan could have been coaching Chris Paul instead of D-Will? FAWK!!!! Look at how AMAZING D-Will looked under Sloan, and how $#!T he's been since (relatively speaking of course). If he's had Paul....


That would have been a helluva team... and Boozer would have looked even better.

JasonJohnHorn
10-13-2016, 07:25 PM
I'm not a Warriors fan... but I always think back to taking Billy Owens over Mutumbo. I mean... that team still would have been in a position to draft Sprewell....

Tim Hardaway, Sprewell, Mullen, Hill and Mutumbo? That would have been a pretty impressive line-up. Two hardnosed rebounders/defenders in the front, and three great perimiter players, one of whom was a stellar defender himself in Sprewell.

Crazy what could have been.

As a Pistons fan, though... I wish we had taken Wade over Darko.... the Pistons would have won back-to-back at least and would have been in a position for a threesome of titles. After that... any number of things could have happened with Wade on board, including luring in key free agents to extend what was already the longest streak of conference finals appearances in decades.

mrblisterdundee
10-13-2016, 11:03 PM
A lot of people passed on Kawhi....and George... those were tough calls.

That's the trick in this thread. Find the guys like Manu Ginibili and Draymond Green who went way too low. My strategy is to look at Basketball-Reference's draft history, and rank the players each year by win shares. Look for the highest-ranked player who was picked after where your franchise picked.

mrblisterdundee
10-13-2016, 11:06 PM
We have a great history of coming close and not taking the best players.

We took LaRue Martin 1st overall over Bob McAdoo who went 2nd in 1972.
We took Mychal Thompson 1st overall over Larry Bird who went 6th in 1978.
We drafted Moses Malone in the ABA supplemental draft and then traded him.
We drafted Sam Bowie 2nd overall over Michael Jordan who went 3rd in 1984.
We drafted Greg Oden 1st overall over Kevin Durant who went 2nd in 2007.

That right there is enough for probably the best "what if" team of all-time. I mean, these aren't like we drafted a guy 4th and 27th was a guy it turns out everyone should have drafted. These were prime draft spots and the HOF guy was taken almost immediately after our pick in every case.

Our 4 #1 overall picks through history were:

LaRue Martin
Bill Walton
Mychal Thompson
Greg Oden

Even the one who "panned out" got hurt almost immediately. Our 4 #1 overall picks provided 1 1/2 years of elite level play. That is abysmal.

You wouldn't believe how many hall-of-famers I left out.

warfelg
10-14-2016, 08:07 AM
Since 01 for the Sixers:
PG: Tony Parker, Jrue Holiday*
SG: Jimmy Butler, Thabo Sefolosha
SF: Paul George, Giannis Antetokoumpo, Wilson Chandler
PF: Draymond Green, Dario Saric*, Thad Young*
C: Nerlens Noel*, Joel Embiid*, Kristaps Porzingis

I cheated a little and kept some guys we drafted anyways. Still...that starting 5 is stuff of wet dreams.

YAALREADYKNO
10-14-2016, 12:28 PM
I'd put the mavs up there with anybody as far as missed oppurtunities goes

mrblisterdundee
10-14-2016, 01:20 PM
Since 01 for the Sixers:
PG: Tony Parker, Jrue Holiday*
SG: Jimmy Butler, Thabo Sefolosha
SF: Paul George, Giannis Antetokoumpo, Wilson Chandler
PF: Draymond Green, Dario Saric*, Thad Young*
C: Nerlens Noel*, Joel Embiid*, Kristaps Porzingis

I cheated a little and kept some guys we drafted anyways. Still...that starting 5 is stuff of wet dreams.

Come on man; just do a little more research, and you can fill out that roster without cheating.
I would consider taking Willie Hernangomez last year over Josh Richardson a missed opportunity. In 2014, the Sixers took Elfrid Payton at 10th, when they could have had Rodney Hood or Nikola Jokic same deal with Dario Saric.
You can replace Jrue Holiday with Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague both have had better careers so far. Thaddeus Young was taken before Marc Gasol. And do you know how many great players the Sixers could have had instead of Marreese Speights? DeAndre Jordan, George Hill, Serge Ibaka, Nic Batum, Goran Dragic, among others.

warfelg
10-14-2016, 01:44 PM
Come on man; just do a little more research, and you can fill out that roster without cheating.
I would consider taking Willie Hernangomez last year over Josh Richardson a missed opportunity. In 2014, the Sixers took Elfrid Payton at 10th, when they could have had Rodney Hood or Nikola Jokic same deal with Dario Saric.
You can replace Jrue Holiday with Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague both have had better careers so far. Thaddeus Young was taken before Marc Gasol. And do you know how many great players the Sixers could have had instead of Marreese Speights? DeAndre Jordan, George Hill, Serge Ibaka, Nic Batum, Goran Dragic, among others.

I did the research. Out of the last 4ish drafts I only consider Porzingis as a missed opportunity. Also I think Jrue/Teague is a wash. I originally had Hibbert as opposed to Speights, but decided against it. I guess maybe George Hill in place to have another guard.

But since the time we did this we've actually had some good other picks to mix in like Iggy, Jrue, Thad, Korver.

I mean what fun is this if you can't at least keep a few guys you thought were good picks?

mrblisterdundee
10-15-2016, 03:52 AM
I did the research. Out of the last 4ish drafts I only consider Porzingis as a missed opportunity. Also I think Jrue/Teague is a wash. I originally had Hibbert as opposed to Speights, but decided against it. I guess maybe George Hill in place to have another guard.

But since the time we did this we've actually had some good other picks to mix in like Iggy, Jrue, Thad, Korver.

I mean what fun is this if you can't at least keep a few guys you thought were good picks?

To each their own, but there are more talented players being left out.

tredigs
10-15-2016, 12:14 PM
Yeah I don't want to hear it from Warriors fans and your current dream team. No one is going to cry for you. :laugh:

Some of us have been suffering since we were born. I'm not going to bother posting my Knicks missed-opportunities team because that Blazers lineup is just terrifying. BTW start Moses Malone. You'd have top 6 GOAT players at every position starting. That's insane.

Lol well I grew up watching a completely inept team for the vast majority of my childhood and young-adulthood, I'd say Warriors fans earned their dues.

TheMightyHumph
10-16-2016, 09:11 PM
My Trailblazers:

PG: Chris Paul, Tony Parker
SG: Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Manu Ginobili
SF: Kevin Durant, Julius Erving, Alex English
PF: Larry Bird, Draymond Green
C: Robert Parish, Moses Malone

I didn't realize it, but in 1978, the Blazers traded up from No. 3 to No. 1, and took Mychal Thompson over Larry Bird!

You'll have to explain Erving and Gervin, and the Bird draft had special circumstances.

And really, what were you going to do with Walton, Mo Lucas and Moses Malone in the same frontcourt?

TheMightyHumph
10-16-2016, 09:12 PM
Chris Paul
Kawhi
Paul George
Nique

I know that's only 4 but that's the ones that come to mind immediately for the Jazz. Although PG instead of Hayward is to me kind of a wash.

Nique made it REALLY clear that he did not want to play for the Jazz.

KnickNyKnick
10-17-2016, 12:17 AM
Lol well I grew up watching a completely inept team for the vast majority of my childhood and young-adulthood, I'd say Warriors fans earned their dues.

yes i remember over the years saying damn i feel bad for the Warriors, always way out of contention.

damn 180 at this point lol. so screw you all!

warfelg
10-17-2016, 09:22 AM
To each their own, but there are more talented players being left out.

Also to be fair: Outside of Nerlens, the guys I kept were pushed to backup roles. Not like I kept Thad and started him over someone better.

Missing56&33
10-18-2016, 01:44 AM
As a Knicks fan, I don't think this thread applies to me. As missed opportunities go...Portland Trailblazers could've had Michael Jordan or Hakeem Olajuwon(chose Sam Bowie) Kevin Durant(chose Greg Oden)

Chose Taurean Green over Marc Gasol in the second round....so missed out on Kevin Durant and Marc Gasol in 2007 :facepalm:

At least 10 Championships missed out on.

All time draft blunder

mrblisterdundee
10-19-2016, 08:50 PM
You'll have to explain Erving and Gervin, and the Bird draft had special circumstances.
And really, what were you going to do with Walton, Mo Lucas and Moses Malone in the same frontcourt?

Portland had the first pick in 1972 and took LaRue Martin. They could have taken Bob McAdoo or Julius Erving. In 1974, the Blazers took Bill Walton with the first. They could have taken George Gervin, who was taken 40th. Even the Lucas pick at 14th could have gotten them Gervin.
I imagine they could do a lot with Malone, Irving, Gervin and Lucas.
In the case of Larry Bird, the Pacers traded the first pick in 1978 to the Blazers. They could have drafted Bird, but took Mychal Thompson pretty simple.

valade16
10-19-2016, 09:36 PM
I think when playing a "what if" game like this it should be players they reasonably were looking at?

I mean, if every team had taken Kawhi in the draft they'd be better off but how many teams at the time were considering Kawhi with the 2nd overall pick? Nobody. I like to restrict it to guys who were picked after but around the time the team was drafting as they would have likely considered them.

That's what makes the Blazers far and away the most excruciating. They picked all their busts a pick or two before so many all-timers.

TheMightyHumph
10-19-2016, 10:07 PM
Portland had the first pick in 1972 and took LaRue Martin. They could have taken Bob McAdoo or Julius Erving. In 1974, the Blazers took Bill Walton with the first. They could have taken George Gervin, who was taken 40th. Even the Lucas pick at 14th could have gotten them Gervin.
I imagine they could do a lot with Malone, Irving, Gervin and Lucas.
In the case of Larry Bird, the Pacers traded the first pick in 1978 to the Blazers. They could have drafted Bird, but took Mychal Thompson pretty simple.

Erving and Gervin never played for the NBA teams that drafted them.

You would have picked Gervin over Walton?

Larry Bird played for another season in college after Celts drafted him 6th in 1978. If Bird hadn't signed with Celts before the 1979 draft, he would have went back into the draft. Celts would no longer have held his draft rights. That's why 5 teams passed on Bird in 1978. Not that simple.

mrblisterdundee
10-19-2016, 11:49 PM
Erving and Gervin never played for the NBA teams that drafted them.
You would have picked Gervin over Walton?
Larry Bird played for another season in college after Celts drafted him 6th in 1978. If Bird hadn't signed with Celts before the 1979 draft, he would have went back into the draft. Celts would no longer have held his draft rights. That's why 5 teams passed on Bird in 1978. Not that simple.

Who can say whether Julius Erving's agent would have prevented him from playing with the Blazers, or whether George Gervin would have left the Spurs after the NBA draft? That's all part of the chaos theory.
If you want a replacement for Erving, how about Bob McAdoo? If Gervin can't be taken, how about Jamaal Wilkes? Even he had a better career than Walton. My team already has multiple other centers who were better than Walton, and much healthier.
Drafting Larry Bird over LaRue Martin in 1978 would have still made sense, even if he played another season in college and demanded a higher salary. He's Larry Mother-****ing Bird really simple.

thenaj17
10-20-2016, 05:28 AM
This revisionist history obviously looks worse today than it did at the time for all parties (drafting is extremely hard), but here it is with some research help for a little fun...

'95 the Warriors took Joe Smith #1 overall. Could've gone with a similar style prospect in one Kevin Garnett (went 5th).
'96 they went with Todd Fuller at #11. Kobe went 15th.
'97 they opted for Adonal Foyle at #7 one spot ahead of T-Mac.
'98 they actually drafted Vince Carter 5th then immediately traded him for Antawn Jamison.

They've been much better drafting in recent years but yeah, those ones are tough to swallow.

This has to be 1 of the worst ever. Jordan and Durant were huge misses for Portland but were years apart. 95-97 for Warriors is painful. Could have been Garnett, Kobe & Tmac on the same team? Game over!

Obviously had they drafted those players they may not have been drafting 11th and 7th in 96 & 97 but this has to 1 of the worst 3 year stretch for missing on players

Hawkeye15
10-20-2016, 10:07 AM
I think when playing a "what if" game like this it should be players they reasonably were looking at?

I mean, if every team had taken Kawhi in the draft they'd be better off but how many teams at the time were considering Kawhi with the 2nd overall pick? Nobody. I like to restrict it to guys who were picked after but around the time the team was drafting as they would have likely considered them.

That's what makes the Blazers far and away the most excruciating. They picked all their busts a pick or two before so many all-timers.

yeah, I mean every team can make a list of players who were picked after they selected and make it look bad. But whether or not during that time frame the player they passed on was looked at as a valid selection there matters. Meaning, a ton of teams passed on Manu, or Draymond for example. But at the time, it wasn't considered anything odd. Those shouldn't count in a thread like this.

mrblisterdundee
10-20-2016, 12:47 PM
yeah, I mean every team can make a list of players who were picked after they selected and make it look bad. But whether or not during that time frame the player they passed on was looked at as a valid selection there matters. Meaning, a ton of teams passed on Manu, or Draymond for example. But at the time, it wasn't considered anything odd. Those shouldn't count in a thread like this.

The thread is about being a Monday Morning Quarterback and creating the best possible team from your team's missed opportunities. So the players that everybody passed on should count, simply because they're better. That's part of the strategy.

TheMightyHumph
10-20-2016, 12:51 PM
Who can say whether Julius Erving's agent would have prevented him from playing with the Blazers, or whether George Gervin would have left the Spurs after the NBA draft? That's all part of the chaos theory.
If you want a replacement for Erving, how about Bob McAdoo? If Gervin can't be taken, how about Jamaal Wilkes? Even he had a better career than Walton. My team already has multiple other centers who were better than Walton, and much healthier.
Drafting Larry Bird over LaRue Martin in 1978 would have still made sense, even if he played another season in college and demanded a higher salary. He's Larry Mother-****ing Bird really simple.

Bird could have done anything he wanted as 1979 draft approached.

And without Walton, Blazers don't have a championship banner.

When the NBA drafted Erving and Gervin, they were BOTH under contract with the ABA, having been drafted as underclassmen, which the NBA did not allow at the time the ABA drafted them.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-21-2016, 12:13 PM
Bucks win coin toss between Suns for draft rights to Dr J. Dr J goes to ABA instead. If he played for the Bucks that would of been a few more rings easily.

TheMightyHumph
10-21-2016, 12:29 PM
Bucks win coin toss between Suns for draft rights to Dr J. Dr J goes to ABA instead. If he played for the Bucks that would of been a few more rings easily.

Bucks won the coin toss with Suns for Lew Alcindor. Let's not revise history.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-21-2016, 01:15 PM
My bad. But we still owned the draft rights to Dr J. He just picked ABA. We ended up with compensation of like $200K.

TheMightyHumph
10-21-2016, 02:28 PM
My bad. But we still owned the draft rights to Dr J. He just picked ABA. We ended up with compensation of like $200K.

Erving came out of college early. Only place he could play was the ABA.

He tried to break his contract in '72 and played 3 exhibition games for the Hawks. A three judge panel said he had to go back to the Virginia Squires. Hawks were fined $25K per game that Julius played.

Where did you find that $200K figure?

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-21-2016, 02:41 PM
Some old article. Just snooped around and found this link. It wasn't the one I remember reading long time ago but I guess Bucks got $150K.


June 5, 1975: Newly appointed Commissioner Larry O'Brien ruled that the Hawks must pay a $250,000 fine to the league and $150,000 to the Milwaukee Bucks in addition to two second round picks in the 1976 draft. (The league fine was later reduced to $100,000.)

http://www.nba.com/hawks/drj

TheMightyHumph
10-21-2016, 03:43 PM
Some old article. Just snooped around and found this link. It wasn't the one I remember reading long time ago but I guess Bucks got $150K.



http://www.nba.com/hawks/drj

Thanks, I didn't realize that. Bucks got a reduced $100,000 and two 2nd rd picks from Hawks.

I wonder who the two 2nd rd picks turned out to be.

valade16
10-22-2016, 07:16 PM
I still haven't seen any team come close to as many big time whiffs as Portland.