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ewing
10-04-2016, 10:52 AM
I'm going to go with Ricky Rubio.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2016, 10:58 AM
Wade, DeRozan, Drummond, Whiteside come to mind

TheDish87
10-04-2016, 10:59 AM
Cousins.

Vee-Rex
10-04-2016, 11:22 AM
Wade, DeRozan, Drummond, Whiteside come to mind

I think Drummond is gonna have a beast year with the new hack-a-whoever changes.

This is a tough one for me. I think it depends on the context and from what perspective (a player like Derozan doesn't seem to be too overrated on these forums but to the rest of the world he does seem to be pretty overrated).

I'd probably have to go with Lowry.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2016, 11:34 AM
I think Drummond is gonna have a beast year with the new hack-a-whoever changes.

This is a tough one for me. I think it depends on the context and from what perspective (a player like Derozan doesn't seem to be too overrated on these forums but to the rest of the world he does seem to be pretty overrated).

I'd probably have to go with Lowry.

yeah, I try not to go off this forum, but what I read nationally. For this forum, I think Irving fits overrated. But public perception/sports sites he isn't really overrated. He kinda fits what you explain him as, efficient scorer, but with flaws to grow.

DeRozan, is overrated. You might be right on Drummond, but he has a long way to go defensively too. He is so slow on rim protection rotation it's painful to watch. His footwork in the post has also not gotten much better.

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 11:42 AM
Wade, DeRozan, Drummond, Whiteside come to mind

want to see how MIA does without Wade before I say he's overrated.

DMC also sticks out to me. Never have I seen a center considered to be the best in the game, yet struggles to lead his team to 30 wins. struggles to shoot over 45%. among league leaders in TO's...and just an overall bad attitude/demeanor.

Giannis94
10-04-2016, 11:45 AM
Rose, Wade come to mind.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2016, 11:50 AM
want to see how MIA does without Wade before I say he's overrated.

DMC also sticks out to me. Never have I seen a center considered to be the best in the game, yet struggles to lead his team to 30 wins. struggles to shoot over 45%. among league leaders in TO's...and just an overall bad attitude/demeanor.

they lost more than Wade though.

xxplayerxx23
10-04-2016, 12:26 PM
Rose, Wade come to mind.


Who overrated rose lol

LanceUpperCut
10-04-2016, 12:29 PM
Whiteside, CP3, Drummond.

da ThRONe
10-04-2016, 12:33 PM
Anthony Davis. His inability to consistently create for himself for me leaves him short of the superstar label he carries. I'd add Dennis Schroder. His offensive efficiency is really bad and his assist % with one of the better jumpshooting team was marginal. Not sure why people have so much faith in him.

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 12:48 PM
they lost more than Wade though.

yea, but the other guys were replaceable and were replaced.

A full season of TJ, a better winslow, a better dragic, Dwill, even waiters... if they are much worse than Wade will be the main reason why

ballallday
10-04-2016, 12:57 PM
I'm going to go with Ricky Rubio.

Can we get a list from somewhere like espn or something that we can say ok yes derozen is overrated? Example if derozen is listed at 30 then he's not overrated if he is listed at 10 then hell yes, he is overrated.

Otherwise we are just lobbing out names...

R!kSm!tz
10-04-2016, 01:51 PM
Rubio and Giannis.

LoveCaliFan
10-04-2016, 02:16 PM
Julius Randle.....

YAALREADYKNO
10-04-2016, 02:59 PM
Demarcus Cousins

Scoots
10-04-2016, 03:56 PM
Julius Randle.....

I keep going back and forth on him. He does some things very well and is underrated in those areas, but he is overrated in others.

TheDish87
10-04-2016, 04:19 PM
Randle is rated fine, prob more under than over if i had to pick. If you made a list of the top 20 most overrated players he wouldnt be on it. LoveCali just thinks hes an expert scout and keeps saying Randle isnt that good for whatever reason.

STRIKERC
10-04-2016, 08:11 PM
I can't believe nobody has brought up John Wall. I rate him the most overrated PG i have seen in a while.

ewing
10-04-2016, 09:01 PM
I can't believe nobody has brought up John Wall. I rate him the most overrated PG i have seen in a while.


i agree i also think his rating is starting to come back down to earth, he is a good ball player just not the franchise player he was billed as

ManningToTyree
10-05-2016, 12:34 AM
Whiteside

Sadds The Gr8
10-05-2016, 01:03 AM
Cousins

tredigs
10-05-2016, 01:38 AM
Generally, whoever the most popular player in New York is.

JAZZNC
10-05-2016, 08:18 AM
Demarcus Cousins. When in the history of the NBA has the league's "best center" struggled to get 30 wins? He has got to be one of the laziest, least intelligent "stars" I've ever seen.

Chris Paul. The way people talk here he's a top 2 or 3 PG of all time. He has the stats both counting and advanced, but his team's have always underwhelmed in the post season IMO (college included).

Draymond Green. He is the darling of the NBA, I just hate his face.

MonroeFAN
10-05-2016, 11:12 AM
Judging from some comments on here, it's Derrick Rose followed by Jeff Teague.

KnicksorBust
10-05-2016, 11:26 AM
want to see how MIA does without Wade before I say he's overrated.

DMC also sticks out to me. Never have I seen a center considered to be the best in the game, yet struggles to lead his team to 30 wins. struggles to shoot over 45%. among league leaders in TO's...and just an overall bad attitude/demeanor.


Anthony Davis. His inability to consistently create for himself for me leaves him short of the superstar label he carries. I'd add Dennis Schroder. His offensive efficiency is really bad and his assist % with one of the better jumpshooting team was marginal. Not sure why people have so much faith in him.

I agree. It has to be either one of these two or Wayne Ellington. I'm so sick of all the Wayne Ellington hype.

archdevil84
10-05-2016, 12:14 PM
james harden

ManningToTyree
10-05-2016, 03:02 PM
Generally, whoever the most popular player in New York is. I don't think Melo is overrated anymore but normally that would be a safe pick

R!kSm!tz
10-05-2016, 03:32 PM
Towns and Davis.

TheDish87
10-05-2016, 03:51 PM
how is Towns overrated?

valade16
10-05-2016, 04:21 PM
how is Towns overrated?

There's another thread saying he is the best Center in the league. If you disagree with that, then you could make the case he's overrated.

aman_13
10-05-2016, 04:30 PM
I think Drummond is gonna have a beast year with the new hack-a-whoever changes.

This is a tough one for me. I think it depends on the context and from what perspective (a player like Derozan doesn't seem to be too overrated on these forums but to the rest of the world he does seem to be pretty overrated).

I'd probably have to go with Lowry.

Lowry and DeRozan took a lot of heat for their playoff performances and DeRozan got destroyed on the SI ranking, not sure how they are overrated.

I guess you feel that way about Lowry because people rank him ahead of Irving?

aman_13
10-05-2016, 04:34 PM
I'm go with Cousins.

TheDish87
10-05-2016, 04:39 PM
There's another thread saying he is the best Center in the league. If you disagree with that, then you could make the case he's overrated.

yikes. ill have to take a look at that thread.

bucketss
10-05-2016, 04:49 PM
damn cousins mentioned alot, id honestly gutt my team for him.

ldawg
10-05-2016, 07:05 PM
damn cousins mentioned alot, id honestly gutt my team for him.Then you become the kings. Cousin is as good as the other 4 on his team. He is not the type of talent that can carry a team on his back. The same way Love couldn't. Having Said that Thunder should trade for him to team with Westbrook. His defense is questionable as well. This is why i was not sure why Lakers wanted him when all they had to do was Draft Okafor.

canzano55
10-07-2016, 09:28 AM
I think Drummond is gonna have a beast year with the new hack-a-whoever changes.

This is a tough one for me. I think it depends on the context and from what perspective (a player like Derozan doesn't seem to be too overrated on these forums but to the rest of the world he does seem to be pretty overrated).

I'd probably have to go with Lowry.Lowry?

He's the hardest working point guard in the league.

TheDish87
10-07-2016, 10:58 AM
yea, Lowry is far from overrated.

kdspurman
10-07-2016, 11:28 AM
Harrison Barnes

Hawkeye15
10-07-2016, 11:35 AM
Harrison Barnes

been overrated since high school

kdspurman
10-07-2016, 11:43 AM
been overrated since high school

ha, didn't realize. Welp, he got paid so I'm sure he doesn't care lol

Vee-Rex
10-07-2016, 12:10 PM
Lowry and DeRozan took a lot of heat for their playoff performances and DeRozan got destroyed on the SI ranking, not sure how they are overrated.

I guess you feel that way about Lowry because people rank him ahead of Irving?

I didn't mention Derozan, I mentioned Lowry. Derozan got killed on the SI ranking but Lowry didn't at all.

It has nothing to do with Irving and more-so to do with the fact that Lowry has consistently been bad in the playoffs. It has to do with the fact that he's highly regarded (by many) as the 4th or 5th best PG when his defense isn't as good as people make it out to be (his man-to-man defense is not good) and he may not even be the best defender at the point guard position on his team. He cannot stay in front of his man. SportVu tracking stats support this.

His passing/play-making is also overrated IMO too. He averages around 6.5-7 assists per game, which is decent but not fantastic/wonderful. His assist% is around 30 which is far, far below Westbrook and Chris Paul and below Curry as well. His assist% and play-making ability is akin to Damian Lillard, and even Kyrie Irving had similar if not better assist% (rookie year at 36 which is better than any of Lowry's entire career) prior to LeBron's return (and ball dominance).

His TOV% is also worse than Kyrie and Lillard's (a little better than Paul and Westie but both of those have a muuuuuuch higher assist% than Lowry) and worse than Curry's.

So every aspect of his game (play-making/passing and defense) that is highly touted is, IMO, overrated. The only reason his TS% shot up this year is likely due to the increase in his FTr (highest free throws per shot attempt he has had in his entire career with a minimum of 10FGA per game).

Top it all off by the fact that he consistently falls apart in the playoffs and I think he's definitely overrated. It's no insult to him or Toronto fans at all, just my opinion.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2016, 01:09 PM
ha, didn't realize. Welp, he got paid so I'm sure he doesn't care lol

if we are going of contracts, Conley wins this in a runaway. Dude hasn't made an all star team, yet makes over $30 million a year...

Hawkeye15
10-07-2016, 01:17 PM
I didn't mention Derozan, I mentioned Lowry. Derozan got killed on the SI ranking but Lowry didn't at all.

It has nothing to do with Irving and more-so to do with the fact that Lowry has consistently been bad in the playoffs. It has to do with the fact that he's highly regarded (by many) as the 4th or 5th best PG when his defense isn't as good as people make it out to be (his man-to-man defense is not good) and he may not even be the best defender at the point guard position on his team. He cannot stay in front of his man. SportVu tracking stats support this.

His passing/play-making is also overrated IMO too. He averages around 6.5-7 assists per game, which is decent but not fantastic/wonderful. His assist% is around 30 which is far, far below Westbrook and Chris Paul and below Curry as well. His assist% and play-making ability is akin to Damian Lillard, and even Kyrie Irving had similar if not better assist% (rookie year at 36 which is better than any of Lowry's entire career) prior to LeBron's return (and ball dominance).

His TOV% is also worse than Kyrie and Lillard's (a little better than Paul and Westie but both of those have a muuuuuuch higher assist% than Lowry) and worse than Curry's.

So every aspect of his game (play-making/passing and defense) that is highly touted is, IMO, overrated. The only reason his TS% shot up this year is likely due to the increase in his FTr (highest free throws per shot attempt he has had in his entire career with a minimum of 10FGA per game).

Top it all off by the fact that he consistently falls apart in the playoffs and I think he's definitely overrated. It's no insult to him or Toronto fans at all, just my opinion.

I knew Lowry didn't perform well in the playoffs, but I didn't know it was that drastic. Just checked. He is like Joe Johnson bad come playoff time, for what many consider an upper tier PG. Dang

tredigs
10-07-2016, 01:26 PM
if we are going of contracts, Conley wins this in a runaway. Dude hasn't made an all star team, yet makes over $30 million a year...

I actually totally disagree here. The ~5 mil a year difference between the two doesn't outweigh the talent disparity. Specifically since Conley is part of the heart/arguably best player of that team and they would have simply lost him with no real backup PG to take his slot. Overpaid? In a sense, clearly. But also a necessary evil for them unless they wanted to go against their core identity and willfully tank the season. He may not be an All-Star but he's in his prime and AS caliber. Barnes just sucks.

cmellofan15
10-07-2016, 01:33 PM
glad someone said harrison barnes, that dude was touted as the next lebron coming out of hs. not his fault because he is a very good role player, but nowhere near where people were saying he was. I'm actually hoping he breaks out this year for the Mavs, but I won't hold my breath lol.

benzni
10-07-2016, 04:41 PM
May be biased cuz DMC is my favorite player not on my team but he's never really had the help, only had overrated fringe stars like Rudy Gay and Rajon. Oh how they should have kept Isaiah Thomas. Outside of Brook Lopez, (oh how im so lucky to be a nets fan) and Whiteside, there really aren't any other big men who have to carry the entire team with no help. Throw in Ant Davis too. lots of overrated fodder on Nola. All of those teams struggle year in and year out.

TheDish87
10-09-2016, 01:11 AM
May be biased cuz DMC is my favorite player not on my team but he's never really had the help, only had overrated fringe stars like Rudy Gay and Rajon. Oh how they should have kept Isaiah Thomas. Outside of Brook Lopez, (oh how im so lucky to be a nets fan) and Whiteside, there really aren't any other big men who have to carry the entire team with no help. Throw in Ant Davis too. lots of overrated fodder on Nola. All of those teams struggle year in and year out.

Davis carried a team to the playoffs, a real **** team too. Cousins is an inefficient, selfish player whose never made a teammate better. He is the true definition of a team cancer.

basch152
10-09-2016, 04:44 AM
How the hell have lebron and wade not been brought up? Two most overrated players in NBA history.

Expecially wade. Dude's entire career had been made by ref bailouts.

eso
10-09-2016, 05:23 AM
I'm going with Steph Curry.

mightybosstone
10-09-2016, 10:54 AM
Wade is an easy pick for me. I loved the guy at his peak as he was unquestionably one of the five greatest SGs in NBA history. But we haven't seen prime Wade in probably 3-4 years, and we haven't seen peak Wade in even longer. For a player his age and with his skill set, you think he'd develop a 3-point shot, but he still hasn't. If anything, he's digressed even further as a shooter. Last season was easily the most inefficient of his career as he's essentially become just a volume scorer who occasionally creates plays for others. Between Wade and Rondo, that Chicago team will have the most overrated, washed-up back court in the league by a mile.

Other guys that come to mind include Davis (can't stay on the floor, overrated defensively), Irving (huge in the playoffs, but more of a role player in the regular season) and Cousins (all stats, no wins).

LanceUpperCut
10-09-2016, 11:02 AM
glad someone said harrison barnes, that dude was touted as the next lebron coming out of hs. not his fault because he is a very good role player, but nowhere near where people were saying he was. I'm actually hoping he breaks out this year for the Mavs, but I won't hold my breath lol.

Yeah Barnes is a very good pick. He's so overrated, decent player but that's about it.

mightybosstone
10-09-2016, 11:10 AM
glad someone said harrison barnes, that dude was touted as the next lebron coming out of hs. not his fault because he is a very good role player, but nowhere near where people were saying he was. I'm actually hoping he breaks out this year for the Mavs, but I won't hold my breath lol.

See, I don't know if I would really call Barnes "overrated" from a public opinion standpoint. He definitely got overpaid, so from a market value standpoint, he's unquestionably overrated. But I don't know any NBA fans who thought that was a good contract for Dallas. And most fans saw how he shrunk in the Finals last year. I think most knowledgeable fans know who Barnes is: a versatile role player with the potential to be a decent No. 3 or weak No. 2 for a a playoff team.

canzano55
10-09-2016, 01:48 PM
I didn't mention Derozan, I mentioned Lowry. Derozan got killed on the SI ranking but Lowry didn't at all.

It has nothing to do with Irving and more-so to do with the fact that Lowry has consistently been bad in the playoffs. It has to do with the fact that he's highly regarded (by many) as the 4th or 5th best PG when his defense isn't as good as people make it out to be (his man-to-man defense is not good) and he may not even be the best defender at the point guard position on his team. He cannot stay in front of his man. SportVu tracking stats support this.

His passing/play-making is also overrated IMO too. He averages around 6.5-7 assists per game, which is decent but not fantastic/wonderful. His assist% is around 30 which is far, far below Westbrook and Chris Paul and below Curry as well. His assist% and play-making ability is akin to Damian Lillard, and even Kyrie Irving had similar if not better assist% (rookie year at 36 which is better than any of Lowry's entire career) prior to LeBron's return (and ball dominance).

His TOV% is also worse than Kyrie and Lillard's (a little better than Paul and Westie but both of those have a muuuuuuch higher assist% than Lowry) and worse than Curry's.

So every aspect of his game (play-making/passing and defense) that is highly touted is, IMO, overrated. The only reason his TS% shot up this year is likely due to the increase in his FTr (highest free throws per shot attempt he has had in his entire career with a minimum of 10FGA per game).

Top it all off by the fact that he consistently falls apart in the playoffs and I think he's definitely overrated. It's no insult to him or Toronto fans at all, just my opinion.He didn't shoot the ball well in the playoffs so he's overrated?

If he doesn't play the majority of the regular season then Raps don't win 56 games - that's the plain reality.

Lowry isn't overrated or underrated - he's just rated. A leader on his team who wills the people around him to perform at a higher level and works very, very hard on both defense and offense.

nycericanguy
10-09-2016, 02:20 PM
May be biased cuz DMC is my favorite player not on my team but he's never really had the help, only had overrated fringe stars like Rudy Gay and Rajon. Oh how they should have kept Isaiah Thomas. Outside of Brook Lopez, (oh how im so lucky to be a nets fan) and Whiteside, there really aren't any other big men who have to carry the entire team with no help. Throw in Ant Davis too. lots of overrated fodder on Nola. All of those teams struggle year in and year out.

he's never made the most of his help. He had Thomas for years, IT dropped over 20ppg his final year in SAC, and they still only went 28-54.

a true young star and so called top center in the game should be able to have his team at .500 minimum. DMC has never even sniffed .500 in 8 years no matter who they put around him.

Patrick Ewing was never touted as the best C in the game, but he would take any squad you gave him to 50+ wins.

JordansBulls
10-09-2016, 03:22 PM
Wade, DeRozan, Drummond, Whiteside come to mind

Wade is the most underrated player in the league.

TheDish87
10-09-2016, 04:20 PM
no hes not. how can you be underrated when you miss 20+ games a year?

JordansBulls
10-09-2016, 04:40 PM
no hes not. how can you be underrated when you miss 20+ games a year?

No he doesn't. Not to mention led a franchise that never won to multiple titles.

TheDish87
10-09-2016, 05:18 PM
oh yea bcuz hes that same player he was in his prime lol. 6 times in his career he missed 20+ games including 3 of the last 5.

JAZZNC
10-09-2016, 07:45 PM
Wade is the most underrated player in the league.
As far as PSD is concerned (maybe more delusional Heat/Bulls fans) he is highly overrated. He is not a top 30 player in the NBA right now any way you try and spin it yet he is thought by some to be in the 15-20 range and that just isn't who he is anymore. If we are going by your logic then KG was a great player last year. This isn't about what has been done in the past, but who is overrated now and Wade most certainly is.

JAZZNC
10-09-2016, 07:46 PM
How the hell have lebron and wade not been brought up? Two most overrated players in NBA history.

Expecially wade. Dude's entire career had been made by ref bailouts.
Did you not see what LeBron did last year especially in the Finals? To say he is overrated is just ignorant. Please explain how he is overrated???

Vee-Rex
10-09-2016, 11:20 PM
He didn't shoot the ball well in the playoffs so he's overrated?

If he doesn't play the majority of the regular season then Raps don't win 56 games - that's the plain reality.

Lowry isn't overrated or underrated - he's just rated. A leader on his team who wills the people around him to perform at a higher level and works very, very hard on both defense and offense.

He never shoots the ball well in the playoffs. Ever. A team's number 1 option shouldn't be shooting a career 37% FG in the playoffs (past 3 years with Toronto). He has shot about 32% from 3pt range in the past 3 years in the playoffs.

That's a big deal, bro... no matter how much you love your guy.

Of course if he doesn't play the regular season the way he does the Raptors don't win 56 games. That goes without saying. I'm not calling Lowry a **** player at all, I'm just saying if he's considered 4th or 5th best PG and/or top 15 player then he's overrated IMO.

I love the man's passion and hard work but passion and hard work alone isn't gonna cut it.

I've been a fan of losing teams (and its players) my entire life. I KNOW what it's like to really love a player despite his flaws. The Raps are nowhere near a losing team, but it's easy to overvalue a guy when he's playing for you team. Then that player leaves and I'm like... hmm, he wasn't AS GOOD as I thought he was when he played for us.

I don't have anything personal against him and I found myself rooting for him to play well in the playoffs (except against us) because of how hard he works.

cmellofan15
10-09-2016, 11:57 PM
porzingis

GodsSon
10-10-2016, 11:01 AM
Curry hands down.

People were putting him up there with Jordan last year for being amazing on one side of the floor. Thankfully, LeBron killed all those talks.

TheDish87
10-10-2016, 11:07 AM
in no way is Curry overrated.

GodsSon
10-10-2016, 11:17 AM
in no way is Curry overrated.

Is he better than LeBron? Better than Jordan??

If not, than he's definitely overrated because TOO many people were already anointing him as the GOAT.

TheDish87
10-10-2016, 11:42 AM
thats the criteria for being overrated? lol

YAALREADYKNO
10-10-2016, 02:22 PM
thats the criteria for being overrated? lol

It is when after one year people were stating how he was up there with Jordan and is better than Kobe offensively

ewing
10-10-2016, 04:41 PM
in no way is Curry overrated.


yeah he is

TheDish87
10-10-2016, 04:46 PM
oh no are we back to you just saying player x is overrated and thats the end of it?

Heediot
10-10-2016, 05:47 PM
Demar Derozan. Harrison Barnes if u expect him to be a number one or two option.

Heediot
10-10-2016, 05:51 PM
Take away Drummond from the pistons and they challenge for the top pick. I don't think he's is over-rated. He has flaws and is still developing I'll give people that.

Vee-Rex
10-10-2016, 07:39 PM
Is he better than LeBron? Better than Jordan??

If not, than he's definitely overrated because TOO many people were already anointing him as the GOAT.

No sane person believed he was better than Jordan. Of course there's gonna be some over-hyped GS fans trying to imply it.

I did think he was better than LeBron, though, and I freely admit that. At this point I think Curry needs to get over that Finals hump to be considered best in the world. 2 straight finals he has considerably underperformed compared to the regular season and playoffs.

That OR if LeBron has a sharp decline. I still consider Curry as 2nd best in the league despite the heavy criticism he has received. LeBron had a historical/GOAT defensive performance in the entire playoffs and an amazing offensive one.

da ThRONe
10-10-2016, 08:11 PM
Take away Drummond from the pistons and they challenge for the top pick. I don't think he's is over-rated. He has flaws and is still developing I'll give people that.

Agreed if anything he may be a little underrated due to his poor FT%.

tredigs
10-11-2016, 09:13 AM
No sane person believed he was better than Jordan. Of course there's gonna be some over-hyped GS fans trying to imply it.

I did think he was better than LeBron, though, and I freely admit that. At this point I think Curry needs to get over that Finals hump to be considered best in the world. 2 straight finals he has considerably underperformed compared to the regular season and playoffs.

That OR if LeBron has a sharp decline. I still consider Curry as 2nd best in the league despite the heavy criticism he has received. LeBron had a historical/GOAT defensive performance in the entire playoffs and an amazing offensive one.

The flat out ignoring of him tearing his knee after the (epic) 1st half of the 1st game of the playoffs is amusing to me. Curry in the regular season was the focal point of every team he faced, and he destroyed all of them at a historic level. No, the only unanimous MVP in History was not overrated, sometimes **** happens.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 10:11 AM
The flat out ignoring of him tearing his knee after the (epic) 1st half of the 1st game of the playoffs is amusing to me. Curry in the regular season was the focal point of every team he faced, and he destroyed all of them at a historic level. No, the only unanimous MVP in History was not overrated, sometimes **** happens.

It was a grade 1 (mild) sprain with a maximum 2-week recovery period, all of which he served.

Stop saying he tore it or you guys wouldn't have made the finals at all.

R!kSm!tz
10-11-2016, 10:35 AM
See, I don't know if I would really call Barnes "overrated" from a public opinion standpoint. He definitely got overpaid, so from a market value standpoint, he's unquestionably overrated. But I don't know any NBA fans who thought that was a good contract for Dallas. And most fans saw how he shrunk in the Finals last year. I think most knowledgeable fans know who Barnes is: a versatile role player with the potential to be a decent No. 3 or weak No. 2 for a a playoff team.

52% in the playoffs from 3 and 5-7 from 3 through 3 preseason games. I know it's too early to tell but they look natural and he's doing them off step backs, dribble pull ups, jab steps, and catch and shoots. I follow a Chicago reporter who said Wade said the other day that he's going to show everyone that you can teach an old dog new tricks. We'll see what happens but I'm very excited to have Wade on our team. He's the greatest Chicago native of all time so it's only right.

R!kSm!tz
10-11-2016, 10:41 AM
How the hell have lebron and wade not been brought up? Two most overrated players in NBA history.

Expecially wade. Dude's entire career had been made by ref bailouts.

I'm going to guess you're a fan of an Eastern conference team that has been abused by those 2 for 13 years or a Mavericks fan.

tredigs
10-11-2016, 11:23 AM
It was a grade 1 (mild) sprain with a maximum 2-week recovery period, all of which he served.

Stop saying he tore it or you guys wouldn't have made the finals at all.
Lol what do you think a ligament "sprain" is? Hint: it's a tear. They clawed their way into the Finals but it was clear as day that by and large the team did not have the full potential of the league MVP any longer. He had his moments but the consistently was gone. I'm pointing out that this is being hilariously ignored entirely in the "overrated" comments. There is no other player in the game capable of achieving what Curry showcased pre-injury last year, so if that's overrated, then that term has lost its meaning on me.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 11:50 AM
Lol what do you think a ligament "sprain" is? Hint: it's a tear. They clawed their way into the Finals but it was clear as day that by and large the team did not have the full potential of the league MVP any longer. He had his moments but the consistently was gone. I'm pointing out that this is being hilariously ignored entirely in the "overrated" comments. There is no other player in the game capable of achieving what Curry showcased pre-injury last year, so if that's overrated, then that term has lost its meaning on me.

Come on, Tre. Don't be obtuse.

In sports if we say "tear" then we're indicating a grade 2 (partially torn) or a grade 3 (complete tear). A sprain, technically is a "tear" but that's typically not the terminology used when describing grade 1. It was a mild sprain and that's it, no need to zero in on the word "tear" to try to make it seem worse than what it was. If you're gonna use "tear" then why do you conveniently leave out that it was the mildest tear it could possibly be?

Stephen Curry's stats in the Semi-Finals and Conference finals are absolutely identical to his stats in the 2015 playoffs, so IMO there's absolutely nothing to indicate that he was as hindered by this injury as people say he was. Sure, he probably wasn't 100% but his terrible finals performance was mostly due to choking and the Cavs spectacular game-plan for him.

No player in the history of the game comes back from injury with a 35/10/7 2-game sample average then puts up 28/6/6 on good efficiency in the next series which is 7 games only to suddenly play like crap and then gets excused because of injury. That just doesn't happen. A guy isn't completely healthy and back, then injured on a bad game, then back again, then back again, then injured on another bad game, then back again!!!

The problem is people are looking at his regular season numbers and then his playoffs and because they don't match they are assuming it's because of injury.

Also, I don't think you're accusing me of calling him overrated (because I didn't).

Chronz
10-11-2016, 12:21 PM
Does health make someone underrated/overrated tho? It puts a cloud on their return to form but when they recover 100%, are they suddenly correctly rated again or were they just hurt? Are we all just blindly guessing when it comes to injuries?

Do we ignore the load they carried all year? Put it this way Vee, the same pass you give Kyrie for his abysmal RS is the same pass he wants for the Finals. Its a tricky question, how much credit do we give guys like Kyle Lowry for being superior players to the likes of Kyrie Irving for the majority of their time in the NBA/FIBA but happen to get hurt in the final days of that marathon? How do we truly know how injured these guys are if they pretty much keep it close to the chest?

Still, nobody gave Bron a pass for his "choke job" vs the Celtics back in the day even though after the series everyone around pretty much agreed had it been the RS the normally indestructible Bron would have sat for weeks with his elbow or whatever it was. There were hints that it effected him, like him playing better with more rest in between games or something. Then there are others who basically said it was only drawn attention to by Bron shooting FT's left handed, like a preemptive excuse if he were to lose or something.

With Curry, the Cavs game plan was enforced by his physical limitations and who knows how he degraded by then. I dont know how much to blame Curry for his teams loss because of the injury. I do think he shriveled but to play worse than he did last year when he had an underrated Finals, I have to think thats on the injury too.

Chronz
10-11-2016, 12:29 PM
Have any of you ever suffered a significant sprain? I feel like I have some sort of achilles tear but I hope its not serious enough to see the Doc. Lemme put it this way, I initially thought I had just sprained my ankle drinking with friends, the next day I played on it because it didn't hurt and I was good. A few days later I can barely walk without limping. Its a sporadic thing prolly based on treatment but I dont think its out of line to say you can have various levels of performance as a result of that sprain, especially if you rely mostly on skill the way Curry does. Its not like hes barreling his way to the rim on every play, where such an injury would be more glaring but the Cavs did force Curry to rely on his injured range of movement.

valade16
10-11-2016, 01:25 PM
Doesn't it work both ways in regards to Curry though? Yes he did insane things in the regular season and people proclaimed him the best in the league... but we all knew LeBron was coasting the regular season, and the LeBron we saw at the end of the season was him at his peak performance.

So if we can't use Curry's regular season to say he was the best, and we can't use LeBron's postseason... how do we possibly determine who was the best?

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 01:33 PM
Does health make someone underrated/overrated tho? It puts a cloud on their return to form but when they recover 100%, are they suddenly correctly rated again or were they just hurt? Are we all just blindly guessing when it comes to injuries?



At no point did I make the claim that Steph was overrated. I responded to the guy who made that claim specifically to tell him that I still considered Steph 2nd best in the league.




Do we ignore the load they carried all year? Put it this way Vee, the same pass you give Kyrie for his abysmal RS is the same pass he wants for the Finals. Its a tricky question, how much credit do we give guys like Kyle Lowry for being superior players to the likes of Kyrie Irving for the majority of their time in the NBA/FIBA but happen to get hurt in the final days of that marathon?



The difference is... Stephen Curry has under-performed TWICE in the finals. At some point you're going to have to acknowledge that choking or the opponents defense/game-plan is a heavy factor in that. I'm not saying that Steph wasn't impaired in some way, I'm saying that the Cavs obviously put together a strategy unlike any of the teams before them. To attribute Steph's bad finals performance to injury (which is more often the VERY FIRST response by people on these forums) is to completely disregard and discredit the Cavs for what they did to him.

Kyle Lowry has had FOUR terrible playoff performances in his career. Not one, not two... FOUR. THREE of them with Toronto. So yes, I'm willing to overlook Kyrie's bad RS when it is by far the worst regular season he has ever had and has averaged about 38% from 3-point line prior to the regular season,

Kyrie came back from a 6-month significant knee injury with no training camp, no preseason, no nothing. He missed 1/3rd the season. He didn't suffer a sore elbow or a thigh bruise or a bruised finger or a scrape on his knee (or whatever it is that Lowry 'suffers' each year).

So in no way, shape, or form can you compare the two. Now if Kyrie stinks it up in the regular season 3-straight years then you have a point - otherwise, Lowry has literally had enough opportunities to prove himself.

R!kSm!tz
10-11-2016, 01:37 PM
Have any of you ever suffered a significant sprain? I feel like I have some sort of achilles tear but I hope its not serious enough to see the Doc. Lemme put it this way, I initially thought I had just sprained my ankle drinking with friends, the next day I played on it because it didn't hurt and I was good. A few days later I can barely walk without limping. Its a sporadic thing prolly based on treatment but I dont think its out of line to say you can have various levels of performance as a result of that sprain, especially if you rely mostly on skill the way Curry does. Its not like hes barreling his way to the rim on every play, where such an injury would be more glaring but the Cavs did force Curry to rely on his injured range of movement.

I've had the same thing happen to my Achilles, I've ****ed my body playing ball basically. Have a few places I want to get MRIs on eventually. As for your injury, mine went away overtime after I laid off of it for awhile. Definitely don't want to keep playing on it though, the whole time I did I felt like I was going to tear it at any second but luckily didn't. Try getting a new pair of shoes that fit your feet well as well. That can definitely help.

R!kSm!tz
10-11-2016, 01:41 PM
Anyone who has Curry above LeBron is overrating him and yes he was pretty bad in 2 straight finals as Vee-Rex said. People call LeBron overrated as it is, could you imagine if he followed 2011 with the same exact play in 2012?Last year was the biggest choke job in NBA Finals history and Curry led the way.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 01:48 PM
Have any of you ever suffered a significant sprain? I feel like I have some sort of achilles tear but I hope its not serious enough to see the Doc. Lemme put it this way, I initially thought I had just sprained my ankle drinking with friends, the next day I played on it because it didn't hurt and I was good. A few days later I can barely walk without limping. Its a sporadic thing prolly based on treatment but I dont think its out of line to say you can have various levels of performance as a result of that sprain, especially if you rely mostly on skill the way Curry does. Its not like hes barreling his way to the rim on every play, where such an injury would be more glaring but the Cavs did force Curry to rely on his injured range of movement.

Oh yes, absolutely. I sprained my ankle (while jumping for a rebound and some guy bumped into me mid-air which caused me to lose my balance and land badly) while playing basketball. 3-4 weeks to recover. 2 weeks in I no longer needed crutches but my ankle felt like glass. Any serious weight on it was painful.

I was playing basketball again the exact same way 6 weeks after my injury. Obviously I don't have the kind of care/recovery methods as someone like Curry, but once I was back I was back. Any bad games after that were just the typical bad games.

Your example with your injury doesn't apply because you played the next day without being diagnosed. Curry was:

1. Diagnosed with a mild sprain on Apr 25th
2. Missed 2 weeks (recovery period)
3. Returned to play on May 9th against Portland
4. Torched Portland averaging 35/10/7 in 2-games while claiming he was fully back
5. Averaged 28/6/6 against OKC in a 7-game series across the time period of May 16th to May 30th

That's 3 weeks AFTER the 2-week recovery period in which he put up wonderful numbers. Then people want to claim that he was severely hindered against the Cavs? June 19th, game 7, he was severely injured enough to impact his performance as bad as it did even though it was approximately 6 weeks AFTER the 2-week recovery period?

All from a mild, non-serious grade 1 sprain?

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/stephen-curry-mri-grade-1-knee-sprain-golden-state-warriors-042516

No... it's an excuse and a BS excuse. He wasn't 100% just like everyone else. Maybe he was a little more impaired than everyone else, but the primary reason he under-performed is not because of injury, especially given that he has history of under-performing in the exact same situation.

Think, man.

Chronz
10-11-2016, 02:01 PM
Doesn't it work both ways in regards to Curry though? Yes he did insane things in the regular season and people proclaimed him the best in the league... but we all knew LeBron was coasting the regular season, and the LeBron we saw at the end of the season was him at his peak performance.

So if we can't use Curry's regular season to say he was the best, and we can't use LeBron's postseason... how do we possibly determine who was the best?

We can, we just know its not a full depiction. The way I see it, Bron was better than Curry both Finals and when you've already done what Bron has accomplished, the onus is on Curry to have his dominant Finals/playoff run to have the case sealed and shut. Sometimes we look back on things and retroactively correct our assumptions. Like if Bron hadn't gone Nova and Curry just replicated his last years Finals (win or not, though likely results in a W),I would have questioned my decision. I dont know exactly when Bron took the mantle from Kobe (or if it was even from Kobe) but I flip flopped on it many times.

valade16
10-11-2016, 02:10 PM
We can, we just know its not a full depiction. The way I see it, Bron was better than Curry both Finals and when you've already done what Bron has accomplished, the onus is on Curry to have his dominant Finals/playoff run to have the case sealed and shut. Sometimes we look back on things and retroactively correct our assumptions. Like if Bron hadn't gone Nova and Curry just replicated his last years Finals (win or not, though likely results in a W),I would have questioned my decision. I dont know exactly when Bron took the mantle from Kobe (or if it was even from Kobe) but I flip flopped on it many times.

But you'd have to think when we look back on it people will use Curry's 1st MVP season as the demarcation point when he became the best player in the league.

And that's when we start getting into production vs better. Whether Bron is a better player than Curry or not, it is irrefutable Curry was a more productive player last regular season.

I guess I concur with you in that I don't know when these seismic changes of the mantle happen, I'd listen to the arguments for a number of years regarding Kobe/Bron for example.

Still, it's very fun to speculate

Chronz
10-11-2016, 02:28 PM
The difference is... Stephen Curry has under-performed TWICE in the finals. At some point you're going to have to acknowledge that choking or the opponents defense/game-plan is a heavy factor in that. I'm not saying that Steph wasn't impaired in some way, I'm saying that the Cavs obviously put together a strategy unlike any of the teams before them. To attribute Steph's bad finals performance to injury (which is more often the VERY FIRST response by people on these forums) is to completely disregard and discredit the Cavs for what they did to him.
I feel people use the term "choking" too loosely so to me, thats brought up as much as the injury is. Like Steph played worse this year than last year despite being a better player overall and he suffered an injury. We can all connect the dots differently.


Kyle Lowry has had FOUR terrible playoff performances in his career. Not one, not two... FOUR. THREE of them with Toronto. So yes, I'm willing to overlook Kyrie's bad RS when it is by far the worst regular season he has ever had and has averaged about 38% from 3-point line prior to the regular season,
Which amount to a grand total of 11 games in 2 years, years in which Kyrie was an inferior player throughout.
And you're going overboard, he wasn't terrible, he was really only awful in his first series as a kid and in 2015 where he was definitely injured. I mean, you look at that Raps team and everyone's efficiency fell (save for Jonas who got hurt) and Biyombo, that team made the conference finals, did they all suck their way to victory? Lowry made the Raps go, they fall apart without him so its kinda hard to blame him if its helping the team so much.



Kyrie came back from a 6-month significant knee injury with no training camp, no preseason, no nothing. He missed 1/3rd the season. He didn't suffer a sore elbow or a thigh bruise or a bruised finger or a scrape on his knee (or whatever it is that Lowry 'suffers' each year).

Yeah, had Lowry suffered that injury, his team is in the toilet and he doesn't get to showcase his "worth". Not seeing how this helps his argument


So in no way, shape, or form can you compare the two. Now if Kyrie stinks it up in the regular season 3-straight years then you have a point - otherwise, Lowry has literally had enough opportunities to prove himself.

That makes no sense to me, Kyrie already proved how inefficient he was before Bron showed up. Lowry has accomplished more in that time span. Like Kyrie hasn't proven capable of leading his own team to anything either, so both still have something to prove. I could totally envision Lowry canning more 3's and attacking scrambled defensive if hes next to Bron. The numbers I've seen suggest hes the superior outlet option.


Heres a fun hypothetical, lets say you and I had the power to change history. What if we swapped Kyle and Kyrie, what if what we found was that Kyrie made the Raps better with his superior 1v1 skills and what if Lowry made the Cavs better with his superior outlet game+defense..... the end result is that Kyrie is less efficient come post season and Lowry is the guy who can cruise to the #1 seed+Finals, how would we determine whos better then?

Chronz
10-11-2016, 02:32 PM
Oh yes, absolutely. I sprained my ankle (while jumping for a rebound and some guy bumped into me mid-air which caused me to lose my balance and land badly) while playing basketball. 3-4 weeks to recover. 2 weeks in I no longer needed crutches but my ankle felt like glass. Any serious weight on it was painful.

I was playing basketball again the exact same way 6 weeks after my injury. Obviously I don't have the kind of care/recovery methods as someone like Curry, but once I was back I was back. Any bad games after that were just the typical bad games.

Your example with your injury doesn't apply because you played the next day without being diagnosed. Curry was:

1. Diagnosed with a mild sprain on Apr 25th
2. Missed 2 weeks (recovery period)
3. Returned to play on May 9th against Portland
4. Torched Portland averaging 35/10/7 in 2-games while claiming he was fully back
5. Averaged 28/6/6 against OKC in a 7-game series across the time period of May 16th to May 30th

That's 3 weeks AFTER the 2-week recovery period in which he put up wonderful numbers. Then people want to claim that he was severely hindered against the Cavs? June 19th, game 7, he was severely injured enough to impact his performance as bad as it did even though it was approximately 6 weeks AFTER the 2-week recovery period?

All from a mild, non-serious grade 1 sprain?

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/stephen-curry-mri-grade-1-knee-sprain-golden-state-warriors-042516

No... it's an excuse and a BS excuse. He wasn't 100% just like everyone else. Maybe he was a little more impaired than everyone else, but the primary reason he under-performed is not because of injury, especially given that he has history of under-performing in the exact same situation.

Think, man.
I heard he aggravated it in the OKC series but yeah it could all be excuses. And he never underperformed to this degree man. The Cavs gameplan included knowledge of his injury.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 02:46 PM
I heard he aggravated it in the OKC series but yeah it could all be excuses. And he never underperformed to this degree man. The Cavs gameplan included knowledge of his injury.

He tweaked it? When? Because his last 3 games against OKC were freaking incredible, dude. His only 2 real 'bad' game was game 4 (unless you want to include game 1 for 7 turnovers). So if he tweaked it at any point during that series he sure as hell felt good enough to decimate OKC in games 5-7. Here's a game to game breakdown of Steph's entire 2016 playoffs following his injury:

Steph Curry

vs. Blazers:

Game 4 - 40/8/9 50%FG 31%3pt 4 TO

Game 5 - 29/11/5 50%FG 45%3pt 4 TO

vs. Thunder:

Game 1 - 26/7/10 41%FG 42%3pt 7 TO

Game 2 - 28/3/2 60%FG 62%3pt 3 TO

Game 3 - 24/3/5 41%FG 27%3pt 1 TO

Game 4 - 19/5/5 30%FG 20%3pt 6 TO

Game 5 - 31/6/7 45%FG 37%3pt 5 TO

Game 6 - 31/9/10 41%FG 42%3pt 3 TO

Game 7 - 36/8/5 54%FG 58%3pt 3 TO

vs. Cavs:

Game 1 - 11/6/5 26%FG 37%3pt 5 TO

Game 2 - 18/4/9 63%FG 50%3pt 4 TO

Game 3 - 19/3/1 46%FG 33%3pt 6 TO

Game 4 - 38/6/5 44%FG 53%3pt 3 TO

Game 5 - 25/4/7 38%FG 33%3pt 4 TO

Game 6 - 30/1/2 40%FG 46%3pt 4 TO

Game 7 - 17/2/5 31%FG 28%3pt 4 TO

There is a stark difference between his series against the Cavs vs. his series against the Thunder and Blazers. If you want to say the Cavs game-plan included knowledge of some injury then go for it, but it sounds more like of a reach than anything else. OKC has better defenders at virtually every position except at the 3, yet Curry still torched them.

The Cavs game-plan was to smother Curry off the PnR and off the screen (we never ever ever ever ever ever doubled/trapped him unless a screen was involved... we played him one-on-one otherwise) and keep his assists down (and increase his turnovers) and attack him relentlessly on the opposing end.

Curry has never been played that way and the results showed. Blaming it mostly on an injury is ludicrous given the numbers he put up on others.

KnicksorBust
10-11-2016, 03:05 PM
As someone who was vigorously proclaiming Curry as the #1 player in the world in 2015, I took a lot of heat. However, I felt pretty damn smart after Curry backed up my claims by having a historic regular season. Everything was right with the world. Then the Finals. 2:30 left in the game 89-89. PnR for Curry, he gets doubled, smart pass, smart pass, missed open 3. Next play Curry helps out on Kyrie, missed shot, Iggy and Curry out in transition, Curry with a textbook bounce pass for an easy... block by LeBron. It's funny how those 2 plays Curry did the perfect basketball and if the 3 had gone in or Iggy had dunked it the Warriors still win the title... (draymond wins fMVP?)... and then does LeBron get to hold on to his crown as the best player... Did he need to win the title to take it back?

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 03:08 PM
I feel people use the term "choking" too loosely so to me, thats brought up as much as the injury is. Like Steph played worse this year than last year despite being a better player overall and he suffered an injury. We can all connect the dots differently.


Him choking is about as factual as anything else. He underperformed in the 2015 finals compared to the 2015 playoffs, and he underperformed in the 2016 finals compared to the 2016 playoffs. Game 7 of the 2016 finals he put up an abysmal 17/2/5 on 31% FG. This was literally 6 weeks after recovering for his 2-week injury.

Does that sound more like choking or injury to you? Honestly, bro?




Which amount to a grand total of 11 games in 2 years, years in which Kyrie was an inferior player throughout.
And you're going overboard, he wasn't terrible, he was really only awful in his first series as a kid and in 2015 where he was definitely injured. I mean, you look at that Raps team and everyone's efficiency fell (save for Jonas who got hurt) and Biyombo, that team made the conference finals, did they all suck their way to victory? Lowry made the Raps go, they fall apart without him so its kinda hard to blame him if its helping the team so much.



That's 31 games in 3 years. Dude, you're acting like Kyle Lowry is the only player to ever carry the load for his team and you're using that to excuse his TERRIBLE playoff performances. I don't care if you feel Lowry is better, but you cannot sit here and excuse him for his playoff performances. Yes, they have all been terrible.




Yeah, had Lowry suffered that injury, his team is in the toilet and he doesn't get to showcase his "worth". Not seeing how this helps his argument



Lowry is a really good player. But what does this have to do with his playoff performances?



That makes no sense to me, Kyrie already proved how inefficient he was before Bron showed up. Lowry has accomplished more in that time span. Like Kyrie hasn't proven capable of leading his own team to anything either, so both still have something to prove. I could totally envision Lowry canning more 3's and attacking scrambled defensive if hes next to Bron. The numbers I've seen suggest hes the superior outlet option.


When was Kyrie inefficient??? Point this out to me, please. League average TS% is usually around 52-53%. His absolute worst TS% was league average and he has always had efficient FG%. He is and has always been one of the more efficient guards in the league.






Heres a fun hypothetical, lets say you and I had the power to change history. What if we swapped Kyle and Kyrie, what if what we found was that Kyrie made the Raps better with his superior 1v1 skills and what if Lowry made the Cavs better with his superior outlet game+defense..... the end result is that Kyrie is less efficient come post season and Lowry is the guy who can cruise to the #1 seed+Finals, how would we determine whos better then?

Determining who's better is irrelevant. MY stance would be that Kyrie has to find a way to be better in the postseason.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. You don't excuse a runner for going full-speed in a marathon and being tired/hurt at the end. Maybe Lowry's regular season would be much worse if he wasn't playing 110% while other guys played 90%? Maybe Lowry's regular season would be much worse if he wasn't competing in the same division as the worst point guards in the NBA?

There's tons of variables and I call BS on even the ones I brought up. Why? Because it doesn't matter... he has to play better in the playoffs and I will criticize him for it for having 3 straight crap playoff performances no matter whose balls he have to hold during the regular season.

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 03:13 PM
As someone who was vigorously proclaiming Curry as the #1 player in the world in 2015, I took a lot of heat. However, I felt pretty damn smart after Curry backed up my claims by having a historic regular season. Everything was right with the world. Then the Finals. 2:30 left in the game 89-89. PnR for Curry, he gets doubled, smart pass, smart pass, missed open 3. Next play Curry helps out on Kyrie, missed shot, Iggy and Curry out in transition, Curry with a textbook bounce pass for an easy... block by LeBron. It's funny how those 2 plays Curry did the perfect basketball and if the 3 had gone in or Iggy had dunked it the Warriors still win the title... (draymond wins fMVP?)... and then does LeBron get to hold on to his crown as the best player... Did he need to win the title to take it back?

Eh, the historic playoffs LeBron had this year and the finals itself made me believe he was simply the better player (even if super super close).

But that's my opinion. I'm cool with viewing LeBron as 1a and Curry 1b. I'm even cool with people arguing that Curry is the best in the world - the regular season DOES make a difference. But IMO LeBron is better.

Chronz
10-11-2016, 04:04 PM
He tweaked it? When?
At some point during G7 IIRC. Ill try to find the clip or something.


There is a stark difference between his series against the Cavs vs. his series against the Thunder and Blazers. If you want to say the Cavs game-plan included knowledge of some injury then go for it, but it sounds more like of a reach than anything else. OKC has better defenders at virtually every position except at the 3, yet Curry still torched them.

Yeah, and he did so while canning tougher looks IMO. Thats the randomness of the game some times, according to NBA.com, you guys gave up more open looks to the Warriors than OKC did. Its just instead of seeing Klay Thompson hit ridiculous dagger after dagger, you had guys like Harrison Barnes going 0-22 or whatever it was.


The Cavs game-plan was to smother Curry off the PnR and off the screen (we never ever ever ever ever ever doubled/trapped him unless a screen was involved... we played him one-on-one otherwise) and keep his assists down (and increase his turnovers) and attack him relentlessly on the opposing end.

Curry has never been played that way and the results showed. Blaming it mostly on an injury is ludicrous given the numbers he put up on others.
How is that any different than what OKC did? Seems like thats pretty much par for the course against him. Clippers did it to him in R.1 several years ago and contained his touches but he enhanced the efficiency of others. We did it to Dame this year and the obvious counter to that is the pressure release from your bigs. It turns their bigmen into playmakers, which is why you saw Dame post pitiful numbers individually but you saw Plumlee average 6 assists out of nowhere. Thats why the progression of Draymond was so important for them, it gave Curry an answer to those traps.

Nobody defends Curry like any other PnR player today. What the Cavs did was no different than what every other team did, in fact, they were an absolute mess when they tried to implement the strategy the first 3 games, as if they had never practiced it before. The switching got better as the series went on obviously.

Still, I like to think Curry abuses defenders 1v1 more if hes healthy and that didn't look like much of an option these Finals. The guy struggled getting off a look against K-Love ffs.

Why do you think Im so pissed off at the Durant defection? The Dubs had so much go wrong for them this year and they were within an inch of a repeat, they didn't need KD.

Chronz
10-11-2016, 04:45 PM
Him choking is about as factual as anything else. He underperformed in the 2015 finals compared to the 2015 playoffs, and he underperformed in the 2016 finals compared to the 2016 playoffs. Game 7 of the 2016 finals he put up an abysmal 17/2/5 on 31% FG. This was literally 6 weeks after recovering for his 2-week injury.
So its about as unknown as everything else then, we can all connect the dots differently.


Does that sound more like choking or injury to you? Honestly, bro?
The guy played better the year prior, hes a better player now and he played worse? Hard to believe injury wasn't a factor there. Maybe the gameplan had more to do with it but Im not a doctor either.



That's 31 games in 3 years.Dude, you're acting like Kyle Lowry is the only player to ever carry the load for his team and you're using that to excuse his TERRIBLE playoff performances. I don't care if you feel Lowry is better, but you cannot sit here and excuse him for his playoff performances. Yes, they have all been terrible.

I dont really care about the 4 game sample where he was so awful that I have to believe the injury hampered him, its why he shed the weight this year. The year prior to that he was actually efficient but his usage was limited. Thats not awful thats just subpar for a star. Still, all that avoids the obvious, which is that they are different players since 3 years ago. Its what makes the decision so hard, not only are the environments different but anything we point to where their situations are more similar means we have to go too far back. Lowry changed his body this year, this is the player Im talking about. Similarly, Kyrie today would lead a team far better than he could as a teen.

And of course hes not the only one, but Im not comparing him to anyone BUT the man who has the luxury of never having to carry his team to such a degree. Im sorry but Im not gonna ignore the effort it takes for his team to make the Conference Finals vs the ease at which Irving is allowed to pace himself whilst holding the team back with his relative inefficiencies on both ends.


Lowry is a really good player. But what does this have to do with his playoff performances?
Because the load you've carried all year, how your team fares with/without you and the amount of defensive attention heaped upon you matters, especially when the comparison is vs a player with the luxury to not even worry about that and has proven even less as his teams best player.



When was Kyrie inefficient??? Point this out to me, please. League average TS% is usually around 52-53%. His absolute worst TS% was league average and he has always had efficient FG%. He is and has always been one of the more efficient guards in the league.

TS% is a measure of scoring efficacy that ignores turnovers, offensive rebounds, assists. Still, I should have clarified its his 2-way efficiency I speak of. A 109 ORTG while being a horrendous defender isn't that impressive outside of the fact that he was doing it as an NBA baby.


Determining who's better is irrelevant. MY stance would be that Kyrie has to find a way to be better in the postseason.
Agree to disagree but you can at least humor me and answer my hypothetical. Thats the beauty of it, what if what they need is simply a different set up around them? If you can be the same player and see drastically different results, kind of tells you how much of a team game this is.


It's a marathon, not a sprint. You don't excuse a runner for going full-speed in a marathon and being tired/hurt at the end. Maybe Lowry's regular season would be much worse if he wasn't playing 110% while other guys played 90%? Maybe Lowry's regular season would be much worse if he wasn't competing in the same division as the worst point guards in the NBA?

Yes its not a sprint but Kyrie literally doesn't even have to be involved in the marathon to win his conference. That VAST disparity in workloads is what determines how much you can afford to pace yourself. A marathon implies equal standards, these aren't equal situations, one guy has it CONSIDERABLY easier.

Lowry very well could just be a RS player, but in this particular comparison, neither is without serious questions about their ability to lead and I just dont see the point in hammering home his playoff woes when Irving hasn't even proven capable of that. And we already KNOW his team can get the 1 seed without him, hell without him even playing they went 2-3 in the Finals and that was a team that was ravaged by injuries outside his own. Hard to blame Lowry for tiring out when the guy hes being compared to can be carried to such a degree and has failed on his own to a greater degree as well. All Kyrie has proven is to be on his tier, you can still favor one over the other. So if Lowry is overrated, the same might applyu to Kyrie until proven otherwise. I wanted to buy the argument but his FIBA play pretty much sealed that for me, the guy was easily the biggest defensive liability out there and struggles to mesh when required to play like an actual playmaker.



There's tons of variables and I call BS on even the ones I brought up. Why? Because it doesn't matter... he has to play better in the playoffs and I will criticize him for it for having 3 straight crap playoff performances no matter whose balls he have to hold during the regular season.

Time will settle the debate, I have no doubt who will go down the better player/career in the long run but as of today, I've seen too much evidence that suggests Lowry is the superior player. It would be one thing if Irving were an iron man but he himself struggles with his health, who are we to say thats not just a matter of timing/luck?

Chronz
10-11-2016, 04:56 PM
As someone who was vigorously proclaiming Curry as the #1 player in the world in 2015, I took a lot of heat. However, I felt pretty damn smart after Curry backed up my claims by having a historic regular season. Everything was right with the world. Then the Finals. 2:30 left in the game 89-89. PnR for Curry, he gets doubled, smart pass, smart pass, missed open 3. Next play Curry helps out on Kyrie, missed shot, Iggy and Curry out in transition, Curry with a textbook bounce pass for an easy... block by LeBron. It's funny how those 2 plays Curry did the perfect basketball and if the 3 had gone in or Iggy had dunked it the Warriors still win the title... (draymond wins fMVP?)... and then does LeBron get to hold on to his crown as the best player... Did he need to win the title to take it back?

Agreed(sorta), which is why I dont care that some defend Durants decision by pointing out that the team lost. These were the 2 best teams in the league, neither of them need you to win. You going to either of them just stacks the deck to an unprecedented degree because they are all in prime position to win regardless.

But to me, Bron had the better playoffs/finals 2 years now and this while already having made 4 Finals to your zero. The onus is on Curry to put the nail in the coffin, his last 2 playoffs have only strengthened my belief of Brons superiority, win or lose.

RaiderKid318
10-11-2016, 05:09 PM
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Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 05:25 PM
At some point during G7 IIRC. Ill try to find the clip or something.


Yeah, and he did so while canning tougher looks IMO. Thats the randomness of the game some times, according to NBA.com, you guys gave up more open looks to the Warriors than OKC did. Its just instead of seeing Klay Thompson hit ridiculous dagger after dagger, you had guys like Harrison Barnes going 0-22 or whatever it was.


I've already posted on this 45098243x before. We gave up more open looks to everyone outside of Klay and Steph. It was part of our game-plan. The Warriors shot far more 3's in the finals than they did against any other team in the playoffs, yet both Steph and Klay shot the exact same amount of 3's in the finals as they did in the other 2 series.

In the finals, a much much higher % of the Warriors FGA were 3's, and a higher % of those 3's came from players other than Steph and Klay. I've posted the numbers on that numerous times before, as well as links to show that it was specifically the Cavs strategy. Here's an article that shows how the Cavs MADE the Warriors shoot more 3's WHILE staying glued to Steph and Klay:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2016/6/28/12051748/how-the-cavs-shut-the-warriors-down-at-the-rim-during-the-nba-finals

The Thunder did not do this and were closing out hard on shooters like Barnes and Iggy and Draymond who ended up passing the ball to a wide open Klay or Steph.



How is that any different than what OKC did? Seems like thats pretty much par for the course against him. Clippers did it to him in R.1 several years ago and contained his touches but he enhanced the efficiency of others. We did it to Dame this year and the obvious counter to that is the pressure release from your bigs. It turns their bigmen into playmakers, which is why you saw Dame post pitiful numbers individually but you saw Plumlee average 6 assists out of nowhere. Thats why the progression of Draymond was so important for them, it gave Curry an answer to those traps.



As I explained above, the strategy of the Cavs was different than that of the Thunder. Why do you think the Cavs held GS to less points than the Thunder did, despite the Thunder having better defenders?

The Cavs trapped and trapped Curry and forced all those turnovers and if he tried to feed the ball to Green they'd let Green shoot the open shot.

Also, no team (not the Clippers, not the Spurs, not the Thunder, not the Blazers, not the Rockets, not the Grizzlies) attacked Curry the same way the Cavs did. GS employs endless switching on their defense and the Cavs made that a priority. JR Smith was literally posting Curry, Kyrie Irving was posting Curry, LeBron was attacking Curry (not too much success scoring, oddly enough, but it played its part in wearing him down). I even saw a couple times when the Cavs dumped it off to Shumpert and he attacked Curry off the dribble.

Imagine having to defend guys every single time the opposing team is on offense. Hell, when I'm playing '33 I will stop and let another guy guard the ball-handler before guarding the person with the ball possession after possession after possession. Curry, surprisingly, answered the call a number of times on defense (like I said he did fairly okay when guarding LeBron), but it made him more sluggish on offense, especially late in games. Curry's best quarter in the entire finals was the 1st quarter.

Curry was attacked relentlessly and if you don't think that had any impact throughout the game I don't know what to say. And you can't sit here with a straight face and say that the Thunder or Blazers or whoever else defended them the exact same way.

tredigs
10-11-2016, 05:29 PM
Frankly it's a moot point how hampered Curry was post-injury. Injuries are often the difference makers between the good and the great, or the great and the apex. Still, as someone who has seen 90% of the games in Curry's career and knows his aptitude/motion at full strength and when he is slowed by an ankle (or in this case knee), it's pretty asinine to determine a player of his caliber to be "overrated" (and in another world where he is able to get his shot off in ISO versus a K Love that lands in the final minute of game 7 and they take the series, it's a storyline that I'm sure people just gloss over as a side note, that's how fickle these comments that turn into narratives can be).

I certainly was not one to consider LBJ overrated in 2010 after he had a few poor series and/or Finals under his belt and the overwhelming narrative of the day was that he was a choker... regardless of him not having the injury skepticism to fall back on. The point is that when you've shown to be the best player of not only the regular season but the leader of championship level teams, it's just foolish to label that player overrated (no I'm not looking at you Vee Rex).

Regardless, I wholeheartedly agree that the onus is on Curry to prove that he can have a dominant Finals run to pay claim as the leagues best player. And frankly with KD on the team and Curry showing early that he's willing to allow him to be the teams top offensive threat (at least for large stretches), I'm not sure it's a narrative he will easily shake (which is fine by me as long as it results in Warrior titles).

Vee-Rex
10-11-2016, 06:11 PM
So its about as unknown as everything else then, we can all connect the dots differently.


The guy played better the year prior, hes a better player now and he played worse? Hard to believe injury wasn't a factor there. Maybe the gameplan had more to do with it but Im not a doctor either.


Listen,

I don't think anyone can stop Curry but himself. He's probably the best offensive player in the league. But that doesn't mean that just because he played worse that it's automatically an injury. That's like saying - "oh I'm a better player now and I played worse than I did last year, so it MUST mean an injury I had previously had an impact even though I'm 3x beyond the normal recovery period for it"

Teams can influence his mindset and get in his head and he can play worse as a result. He was clearly frustrated, man. I'm sure that's due to a few ticky tack calls by the refs and the Cavs/LeBron attacking him and getting in his head. But he was clearly not there mentally.




I dont really care about the 4 game sample where he was so awful that I have to believe the injury hampered him, its why he shed the weight this year. The year prior to that he was actually efficient but his usage was limited. Thats not awful thats just subpar for a star. Still, all that avoids the obvious, which is that they are different players since 3 years ago. Its what makes the decision so hard, not only are the environments different but anything we point to where their situations are more similar means we have to go too far back. Lowry changed his body this year, this is the player Im talking about. Similarly, Kyrie today would lead a team far better than he could as a teen.



A 4-game sample isn't much but if dude continues to under-perform (that term is more friendly) in the playoffs then it's hard not to place some weight into that 4-game sample. Injury or scrape or bruise or swelling or not, at what point are you actually gonna hold Lowry accountable, Chronz?



And of course hes not the only one, but Im not comparing him to anyone BUT the man who has the luxury of never having to carry his team to such a degree. Im sorry but Im not gonna ignore the effort it takes for his team to make the Conference Finals vs the ease at which Irving is allowed to pace himself whilst holding the team back with his relative inefficiencies on both ends.



I never brought the Lowry/Irving discussion up in this thread - you did. You're the one that can't get over it. My criticism of Lowry would remain my criticism of Lowry even if Kyrie Irving never existed: He's gotta perform better in the playoffs or I'll feel he's overrated. I'm only willing to give Irving a pass on his 15-16 season because it was just one year, not three. And the injury he was recovering from was far more devastating than any Lowry has had in the playoffs.

I mean, look at it this way: at least Curry has played GREAT in all his playoff appearances even if his 2016 run didn't match his regular season (and who would expect him to be able to do that anyway? His regular season was too great). Lowry does not play well AT ALL in the playoffs and never has, and that's a 31-game sample size (not including his 1st year).




TS% is a measure of scoring efficacy that ignores turnovers, offensive rebounds, assists. Still, I should have clarified its his 2-way efficiency I speak of. A 109 ORTG while being a horrendous defender isn't that impressive outside of the fact that he was doing it as an NBA baby.

Well when you mention Kyrie was 'inefficient' before LeBron I'm thinking immediately of scoring. Lowry has the more complete offensive game, but I do not think of assists and offensive rebounds when someone mentions efficiency.




Agree to disagree but you can at least humor me and answer my hypothetical. Thats the beauty of it, what if what they need is simply a different set up around them? If you can be the same player and see drastically different results, kind of tells you how much of a team game this is.

I thought I answered it but I'll clarify: I'd criticize Irving the exact same way. Dude can't underperform (or crap the bed) in the playoffs or it'll look bad on him.



Yes its not a sprint but Kyrie literally doesn't even have to be involved in the marathon to win his conference. That VAST disparity in workloads is what determines how much you can afford to pace yourself. A marathon implies equal standards, these aren't equal situations, one guy has it CONSIDERABLY easier.


What does Lowry's failures have to do with Kyrie? Lillard is running the marathon too, yet he's not injured/worn down in the playoffs. His playoffs have been better than Lowry.

You can't seem to separate my criticisms of Lowry from my opinion that Kyrie is the better player, which is unfortunate.




Lowry very well could just be a RS player, but in this particular comparison, neither is without serious questions about their ability to lead and I just dont see the point in hammering home his playoff woes when Irving hasn't even proven capable of that. And we already KNOW his team can get the 1 seed without him, hell without him even playing they went 2-3 in the Finals and that was a team that was ravaged by injuries outside his own. Hard to blame Lowry for tiring out when the guy hes being compared to can be carried to such a degree and has failed on his own to a greater degree as well. All Kyrie has proven is to be on his tier, you can still favor one over the other. So if Lowry is overrated, the same might applyu to Kyrie until proven otherwise. I wanted to buy the argument but his FIBA play pretty much sealed that for me, the guy was easily the biggest defensive liability out there and struggles to mesh when required to play like an actual playmaker.



Time will settle the debate, I have no doubt who will go down the better player/career in the long run but as of today, I've seen too much evidence that suggests Lowry is the superior player. It would be one thing if Irving were an iron man but he himself struggles with his health, who are we to say thats not just a matter of timing/luck?

Like I said, if Kyrie didn't exist I'd still feel the same way I do about Lowry. When Kyrie has multiple bad regular seasons or playoff performances in a row, you'll see me coming down the same way on him too. Unfortunately their situations are different but we can't change that and any assumptions about how these players will perform if things were different are unproven.

Also Irving's injury history isn't great and I see why people question it, but I think his body is stronger now than it was before. Also, he missed games early in his career when the Cavs were handling him with kiddy-gloves and were shutting him down a lot.

He's visibly more beefy now. Knocking knees and breaking his kneecap in game 1 of the finals is just an unfortunate injury.

Scoots
10-11-2016, 07:09 PM
Vee, to me the biggest difference I saw in Curry in the playoffs (anybody can go cold shooting, even him) was his defense. He's a good team defender, but he just didn't have near the lateral movement (slow as he is) he usually has.

BUT, don't take that as anything against the Cavs who took the Warriors apart. Curry wasn't himself, but even if he was I'm in no way sure the Warriors win.

Vee-Rex
10-12-2016, 12:01 AM
Vee, to me the biggest difference I saw in Curry in the playoffs (anybody can go cold shooting, even him) was his defense. He's a good team defender, but he just didn't have near the lateral movement (slow as he is) he usually has.

BUT, don't take that as anything against the Cavs who took the Warriors apart. Curry wasn't himself, but even if he was I'm in no way sure the Warriors win.

I disagree with both parts. :D

I saw a guy who was mentally out of it and tired from being attacked constantly. Normally if his 3 isn't dropping he can still create. The Cavs built a wall (after game 2) and did not allow Curry to drive and when he did LeBron was there.

Ever wonder why the Warriors weren't able to dominate with their featured Curry/Green high pick-n-roll? Because the Cavs put LeBron on Green and he shut it down.

I don't think his lateral movement was hindered especially having watched pretty much the entire WCF in which he dominated 5/6 games. He was the same guy just not finishing his 2pters quite as well, likely due to the length of OKC.

For your 2nd part... I think if Curry WAS himself then the Warriors win in 4 or 5. I just think that the major reason he wasn't himself was due to the nature of the Cavs defense, due to the nature of the Cavs offense aggressively attacking him more than any other team has, due to LeBrons historical defensive performance (the stats are just insane), when guarding and trapping his pick n rolls (there's also vids of LeBron masterminding and quarterbacking the defense mid-play to keep Curry from being able to get off a shot), and due to the pressure and high expectations of the finals.

Curry was NOT 100% but I don't feel being banged up was the primary reason for his struggles. Obviously others disagree, which is the reason for the length of this conversation.

Saddletramp
10-12-2016, 04:39 AM
My man Vee Rex tearing them up (sorry to my man Chronz).

I'd say Durant. He's got all the skills in the world but man, his heart is soft as ****. He turned into just another ring chaser but he's doing it in his prime. That's embarrassing.

Miltstar
10-12-2016, 10:30 AM
I never understood the whole underrated/overrated on here. It really comes down to who you're talking to and how they value players. Who's underrated to one could be overrated to another. Demar Derozan is a great example, I for one think he's highly underrated, I can name the players on one hand who can create their own shot and score at the same rate he can, but to many on here he's overrated because they believe that's all he can do.

Scoots
10-12-2016, 10:14 PM
I never understood the whole underrated/overrated on here. It really comes down to who you're talking to and how they value players. Who's underrated to one could be overrated to another. Demar Derozan is a great example, I for one think he's highly underrated, I can name the players on one hand who can create their own shot and score at the same rate he can, but to many on here he's overrated because they believe that's all he can do.

I think the over/under rated thing has to do with a perception of "buzz" about a player. When talking heads on TV talk about a player who are they comparing him to? Does that comparison tend to be optimistic or pessimistic. There is certainly no science to it ... but what we do here is pontificate about the unknown as if it can be known and is known. Without pointless debate this place would be pointless itself :)

FlashBolt
10-13-2016, 02:42 PM
Curry's a good team defender because most "team defenders" can trust their teammates to defend. That's not the case with every team. Stick Curry to the Lakers and his "team defense' stigma will be exposed. And some of you seem to forget that Curry was also pretty crappy in last year's NBA Finals (The one where Iggy won the Finals MVP). It's pretty obvious he was affected by an injury but I just hate the narrative that an injured Curry was the reason Cavs won. I just think LeBron+Kyrie stepped up. Where's the credit for those two players? Curry had zero pressure after they were ahead 3-1. Even when it was 3-3, pressure has and will always be on LeBron. It's funny reading these injury proclamations when some of you were trash talking the Cavs and LeBron when they were down 1-3. Injuries that the Cavs had last year far outweighed the Warriors injuries, tbh.

Scoots
10-14-2016, 08:12 AM
Curry's a good team defender because most "team defenders" can trust their teammates to defend. That's not the case with every team. Stick Curry to the Lakers and his "team defense' stigma will be exposed. And some of you seem to forget that Curry was also pretty crappy in last year's NBA Finals (The one where Iggy won the Finals MVP). It's pretty obvious he was affected by an injury but I just hate the narrative that an injured Curry was the reason Cavs won. I just think LeBron+Kyrie stepped up. Where's the credit for those two players? Curry had zero pressure after they were ahead 3-1. Even when it was 3-3, pressure has and will always be on LeBron. It's funny reading these injury proclamations when some of you were trash talking the Cavs and LeBron when they were down 1-3. Injuries that the Cavs had last year far outweighed the Warriors injuries, tbh.

I've never discredited the Cavs accomplishments, and have praised LeBron a lot, last year and the year before. But I can still defend Curry's performance or lack thereof as being somewhat contributed to by his reduced lateral agility. He still had a bad performance, no question. On the Cavs being "more injured" the Warriors had 3 starters miss games in the finals ... how many did the Cavs lose? I really don't know. On top of that the Warriors players who were playing were falling apart (due in part to mis-management and in part to the Cavs defense).

Hawkeye15
10-14-2016, 11:32 AM
I've never discredited the Cavs accomplishments, and have praised LeBron a lot, last year and the year before. But I can still defend Curry's performance or lack thereof as being somewhat contributed to by his reduced lateral agility. He still had a bad performance, no question. On the Cavs being "more injured" the Warriors had 3 starters miss games in the finals ... how many did the Cavs lose? I really don't know. On top of that the Warriors players who were playing were falling apart (due in part to mis-management and in part to the Cavs defense).

the thing is, when you want to be at the top of the mountain, there are literally no excuses. LeBron has never had a pass in his life, even if he was banged up or tired. That is just how it goes when judging the best of the best.

Scoots
10-14-2016, 12:16 PM
the thing is, when you want to be at the top of the mountain, there are literally no excuses. LeBron has never had a pass in his life, even if he was banged up or tired. That is just how it goes when judging the best of the best.

So, is it not possible to discuss the situation without being called out as making excuses?

When a war is lost it is lost, there is not un-losing it and the winners won it ... but people discuss the elements of the war down to the movement of individual troops in individual battles. Any time someone says a specific troop action was less than optimal is that an excuse or just analysis?

Hawkeye15
10-14-2016, 03:38 PM
So, is it not possible to discuss the situation without being called out as making excuses?

When a war is lost it is lost, there is not un-losing it and the winners won it ... but people discuss the elements of the war down to the movement of individual troops in individual battles. Any time someone says a specific troop action was less than optimal is that an excuse or just analysis?

again, I will go back to the LeBron example. Under no circumstance, was he ever given a pass by fans, ex-players, or media. Can't win with Mo Williams as your #2? Tough ****. You are supposed to be the King, no excuses.

I am not saying it's fair. I side with providing real reasons even the best might have failed. I only mean, the masses, and haters don't. They don't care.

FlashBolt
10-14-2016, 04:13 PM
I've never discredited the Cavs accomplishments, and have praised LeBron a lot, last year and the year before. But I can still defend Curry's performance or lack thereof as being somewhat contributed to by his reduced lateral agility. He still had a bad performance, no question. On the Cavs being "more injured" the Warriors had 3 starters miss games in the finals ... how many did the Cavs lose? I really don't know. On top of that the Warriors players who were playing were falling apart (due in part to mis-management and in part to the Cavs defense).

I know you do but guys like (cough Tredigs) just refuse to accept that Warriors just choked. It wasn't just Curry, too. Key guys like Klay+Barnes were underperforming by any measure. Kerr winning COTY was laughable and it was evident in the Finals when he just couldn't find any other way to get the offense going. Like I said, yes, he was injured. But he was also playing 40 minutes per game.. he was healthy enough to win 1/3 games.. especially when two of those games are at the Oracle. I mean, he was wide open and hit backboard many times in game 7.

And yes, Cavs injuries definitely affected them more.

Delly was depended to be their 2nd option.
Mosgov had to be a scorer.
And there was no other option other than LeBron to help Cleveland win.
I just don't know how you can win with Delly as your second option. That's just absurd to think about.

The equivalent of what James had to play with is like taking out Klay+Draymond and have the rest of that Warriors roster vs a healthy Cavs. I mean Klay had a semi-concussion so IDK, maybe he gets a pass?

valade16
10-14-2016, 07:07 PM
The Cavs finals loss they were missing both Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving for the majority of the series.

That is far worse than the Warrior's injuries in last year's finals.

tredigs
10-14-2016, 07:28 PM
again, I will go back to the LeBron example. Under no circumstance, was he ever given a pass by fans, ex-players, or media. Can't win with Mo Williams as your #2? Tough ****. You are supposed to be the King, no excuses.

I am not saying it's fair. I side with providing real reasons even the best might have failed. I only mean, the masses, and haters don't. They don't care.

Disagree dude, he was given a pass by many - specifically in his first finals - as he should have. Nobody gave him a pass against the Mavs or in the ECF against the Celtics, other than that it was just Kobe stans and/or outright Bron haters who piled on.

FlashBolt
10-15-2016, 11:10 AM
Disagree dude, he was given a pass by many - specifically in his first finals - as he should have. Nobody gave him a pass against the Mavs or in the ECF against the Celtics, other than that it was just Kobe stans and/or outright Bron haters who piled on.

When people say he's 3-7 in the NBA Finals, that means he wasn't given a pass.

tredigs
10-15-2016, 12:17 PM
When people say he's 3-7 in the NBA Finals, that means he wasn't given a pass.

Why do you keep quoting me and mentioning me like I care what you have to say? I don't respect you in the least (from a personal or bbiq standpoint). I urge you to stop bothering.

valade16
10-15-2016, 12:29 PM
Disagree dude, he was given a pass by many - specifically in his first finals - as he should have. Nobody gave him a pass against the Mavs or in the ECF against the Celtics, other than that it was just Kobe stans and/or outright Bron haters who piled on.

He was given a pass for the 1st Spurs finals but then people sort of retroactively took back that pass as the years went on. His last years in Cleveland were all about how he couldn't win.

Granted I think a lot of the zero excuse mentality towards LeBron started Happening once he formed the Big 3 in Miami, and not many people want to hear excuses when you do something like that (and rightfully so in my opinion).

Still before this finals people were saying he was a loser because he had a 2-4 records in the Finals.

FlashBolt
10-15-2016, 12:37 PM
Why do you keep quoting me and mentioning me like I care what you have to say? I don't respect you in the least (from a personal or bbiq standpoint). I urge you to stop bothering.

You don't care but you're replying? Keep it up, oldie.

BlueandWhite
10-15-2016, 01:21 PM
Yeah I think people really misunderstand the term "overrated"

Take Lowry and Derozen. MOST people would say, they are above average players, that win in a weak conference, succeed in the regular season, and (though they made it to the ECF) do not play well at all in the playoffs.

They work hard, but do not have the edge or that extra gear to be elite players.

I think if you asked the majority of NBA fans, they would agree that is the general consensus.

BASED ON THAT........how are they overrated? Almost everyone believes that! thats like me saying I think Megan fox is an overrated actress.

R!kSm!tz
10-15-2016, 02:55 PM
LeBron was never given a pass stop with That nonsense.

Seizabmc
10-16-2016, 07:42 PM
Blake Griffin
James harden
White side
K love
Dj
Butler

Seizabmc
10-16-2016, 07:43 PM
Harrison Barnes
Draymond green

Scoots
10-16-2016, 08:56 PM
Harrison Barnes
Draymond green

Green maybe, but Barnes isn't rated very high by anyone but optimistic Mavs fans.

Hawkeye15
10-17-2016, 10:06 AM
He was given a pass for the 1st Spurs finals but then people sort of retroactively took back that pass as the years went on. His last years in Cleveland were all about how he couldn't win.

Granted I think a lot of the zero excuse mentality towards LeBron started Happening once he formed the Big 3 in Miami, and not many people want to hear excuses when you do something like that (and rightfully so in my opinion).

Still before this finals people were saying he was a loser because he had a 2-4 records in the Finals.

bingo.

Scoots
10-17-2016, 12:57 PM
When we find ourselves writing "people are saying" we should all say to ourselves "but people are stupid" :)