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nycericanguy
09-30-2016, 02:56 PM
Pretty much every article I've read talks about how Rose was not a starting caliber PG last year and how awful his numbers were.

But no one actually talks about what happened last year.

Day 1 of training camp he was hit in the eye and had double vision for the following 3 months or so. He had surgery on the eye the next day and missed all of training camp. Rose probably needed that camp more than anyone to shake off the rust.

So yes he was absolutely AWFUL the first 8-10 weeks of the season. To me the eye was a freak injury though, not something to worry about. His knees have been good for a while now.

But Rose after the all star break

17.4ppg, 4.6apg 3.1rpg. A shooting line of 47/38/78 in 30mpg.

Are those the numbers of a "horrible" PG? A non starting caliber PG? He actually scored more on a per minute basis and more efficiently than his career numbers post all star break.

Now of course the first 8-10 weeks when he was shooting around 33% really drag all his numbers and advanced stats down.

I don't think anyone expects MVP Rose again, nor do the Knicks need him to be, but this idea that he is one of the worst PG's in the league and not starting caliber is really overblown and not within context of what happened last year.

cmellofan15
09-30-2016, 03:04 PM
I don't doubt he will find a way to get hurt again this year, so no.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2016, 03:09 PM
if he is healthy, he still can be a good drive and kick guard who can score at an above average efficiency rate. His all star days are probably long gone, but he could still be a top half of the league PG for sure. Just needs to stay healthy, or relatively anyways.

LanceUpperCut
09-30-2016, 03:10 PM
His defense was horrible last year all season.

nycericanguy
09-30-2016, 03:23 PM
if he is healthy, he still can be a good drive and kick guard who can score at an above average efficiency rate. His all star days are probably long gone, but he could still be a top half of the league PG for sure. Just needs to stay healthy, or relatively anyways.

reasonable... he's healthy as of now, and it's been well over a year since he's had knee issues. So I wont predict injuries for him. He's actually had time to train this summer and he'll actually have a training camp. Should do well for him. Plus I think this roster suits him better. KP & Melo can spread the floor better than Pau/Noah/Gibson in CHI. I think that should open things up for him more.

nycericanguy
09-30-2016, 03:25 PM
His defense was horrible last year all season.

ehh... I think people complain about PG defense now more than ever. It seems every team thinks their PG defense sucks... but the reality is there are so many dynamic PG's in the league now that it makes it seem like PG defense is bad.

Even a great defensive PG like CP3 isn't going to really stop opposing PG's. that's why a good defensive, rim protecting center is so important now. One that can step out on the perimeter too.

Shammyguy3
09-30-2016, 03:28 PM
His box score numbers were better after the season. But, he still wasn't that efficient:
52.1ts%
49.5efg%
101 ORtg
27.8usg%


so he used up a lot of shots, didn't get to the line, and didn't really create well for others considering his usage was so high. That 101 ORtg says a lot, because while he was no longer abysmal in scoring efficiency, he wasn't making the offense much better either. He simply got his, and the shots he took he actually made over those 21 games s/p all-star break. Which isn't a large sample, and the shots he finally made over that stretch he hasn't shown to be able to make consistently since 2012.

Plus he was really disinterested, passionless, and didn't want to guard pick & rolls.

Shammyguy3
09-30-2016, 03:32 PM
reasonable... he's healthy as of now, and it's been well over a year since he's had knee issues. So I wont predict injuries for him. He's actually had time to train this summer and he'll actually have a training camp. Should do well for him. Plus I think this roster suits him better. KP & Melo can spread the floor better than Pau/Noah/Gibson in CHI. I think that should open things up for him more.

He should have a more open paint, but that wasn't really the problem with him. He had a lot of opportunities to drive, and he instead took long jumpers. He never pushed the ball on offense in transition last year.


ehh... I think people complain about PG defense now more than ever. It seems every team thinks their PG defense sucks... but the reality is there are so many dynamic PG's in the league now that it makes it seem like PG defense is bad.

Even a great defensive PG like CP3 isn't going to really stop opposing PG's. that's why a good defensive, rim protecting center is so important now. One that can step out on the perimeter too.

That doesn't have anything to do with what Rose's defense is though. Rose had trouble guarding guys that shouldn't give you THAT much trouble. He couldn't guard anybody man.

IndyRealist
09-30-2016, 03:33 PM
He was horrible the year before, too, when he played 1500 minutes.

mudvayne387
09-30-2016, 03:33 PM
I don't know, but I need to vent. As a lifelong Knicks fan could somebody please tell me what the **** Phil Jackson was doing when he traded for Rose ? According to reports, he knew full well that Rose was going to be involved in a trial. Now I am not saying Rose is innocent or guilty, but to take on something like this when you are rebuilding a basketball team is insanity. Although I am leaning on the side that this is an extortion case, the text messages that went public makes Rose look like a complete scumbag no matter how this shakes out. So now instead of us talking about Porzingis in year two and the addition of Courtney Lee and Noah, we have to talk about a rape trial. It's almost too wacky to be true, surreal.

nycericanguy
09-30-2016, 03:40 PM
His box score numbers were better after the season. But, he still wasn't that efficient:
52.1ts%
49.5efg%
101 ORtg
27.8usg%


so he used up a lot of shots, didn't get to the line, and didn't really create well for others considering his usage was so high. That 101 ORtg says a lot, because while he was no longer abysmal in scoring efficiency, he wasn't making the offense much better either. He simply got his, and the shots he took he actually made over those 21 games s/p all-star break. Which isn't a large sample, and the shots he finally made over that stretch he hasn't shown to be able to make consistently since 2012.

Plus he was really disinterested, passionless, and didn't want to guard pick & rolls.

I'm sure you saw a lot of him.

that being said, 52.1 TS and 49.5eFG is ABOVE his career averages. Even MVP Rose eFG was .485%. He's never been a high volume 3pt shooter, but I don't think that makes him inefficient or a huge FT guy.

If your shooting line is 47/38/78 that's pretty damn good.

also it seems the entire culture in CHI went down the shoot after Thibs left, so if you say he looked disinterested and passionless, well then I look forward to seeing him rejuvenated in NY.

Captain Moroni
09-30-2016, 03:47 PM
I don't know, but I need to vent. As a lifelong Knicks fan could somebody please tell me what the **** Phil Jackson was doing when he traded for Rose ? According to reports, he knew full well that Rose was going to be involved in a trial. Now I am not saying Rose is innocent or guilty, but to take on something like this when you are rebuilding a basketball team is insanity. Although I am leaning on the side that this is an extortion case, the text messages that went public makes Rose look like a complete scumbag no matter how this shakes out. So now instead of us talking about Porzingis in year two and the addition of Courtney Lee and Noah, we have to talk about a rape trial. It's almost too wacky to be true, surreal.

I'm with you on this. I actually believe Rose will have a great year while he reinvents parts of his game to fit with a roster more suited to his needs. He is also playing for his next contract. Which ironically will allow him to afford his misguided sexual appetite.

ewing
09-30-2016, 03:53 PM
i hope so

Chronz
09-30-2016, 03:55 PM
I forget the injury situation in Chicago, I remember Butler getting hurt and I think Rose took it upon himself to pick up some of the slack, whether Butler wanted that or not but what worries looking at the splits is how much better the team played when he himself was limited and holding back. Could just be coincidence or scheduling but when he had his 18PPG stretch in January and the 22-6-6 stretch in February the Bulls were just abysmal when he was out on the floor and those were the only 2 months he was actually efficient.

I know those numbers look ok at first glance but if he repeats the same level of efficiency, he better be accruing more assists, making Melo more efficient or opening up offensive rebounding chances for Noah/KP because post All-Star break his O-RTG is a lowly 102. Just for some statistical perspective, here are the only G last year who had a usage% above 24 and an O-RTG below 102: http://bkref.com/tiny/W7QUe

You'll see rooks, old gunslinging Kobe, an injured Knight and the only shining beacon of hope is Dennis Shroeder but hes coming off the bench and had a down year so he should be better next year as the full-time starter. I dont know how good they are defensively but I have a feeling Rose is among the bottom of the barrel here, as he was never an intuitive defender even at his peak but I could be wrong here. So among high usage guys, Rose is in bad company even if we focus solely on his 2nd half splits. If we eliminate the usage standard entirely, there were 69 other players as inefficient all year as he was in that stretch : http://bkref.com/tiny/JMsWH


Run through that hodge podge of mostly low ring role players and tell me in whos company would you be proud to see him with? Tony Allen makes his name with D so him being as inefficient as Rose is something you can live with, with Rose he has to make up for his own deficiencies by bringing the best in others, it remains to be seen if he can do that.

You see 3-D guys like Danny Green, Bazemore, Shump who all had down years but I wager they command attention regardless so they still help their teams. I never realized how inefficient some of these guys were but a guy like OJ Mayo really helped his teams lack of spacing regardless.

Monta Ellis would be his closest comp and hes on the downside of his career and not someone I look forward to seeing on the court.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2016, 03:56 PM
reasonable... he's healthy as of now, and it's been well over a year since he's had knee issues. So I wont predict injuries for him. He's actually had time to train this summer and he'll actually have a training camp. Should do well for him. Plus I think this roster suits him better. KP & Melo can spread the floor better than Pau/Noah/Gibson in CHI. I think that should open things up for him more.

well, you wisely got a plan B at PG, so Rose can be rested if necessary.

bucketss
09-30-2016, 03:59 PM
i hope to god he is, for his own sake.

Green_Monster
09-30-2016, 04:01 PM
He was one of the worst starting PG's in the league last year. If you believe he's going to be THAT bad again, then yeah, he's probably better than you think. He's not going to suddenly become very good again though.

Chronz
09-30-2016, 04:04 PM
ehh... I think people complain about PG defense now more than ever. It seems every team thinks their PG defense sucks... but the reality is there are so many dynamic PG's in the league now that it makes it seem like PG defense is bad.

Even a great defensive PG like CP3 isn't going to really stop opposing PG's. that's why a good defensive, rim protecting center is so important now. One that can step out on the perimeter too.

But over the course of an entire RS those seemingly minuscule stops/deflections/bumps/switches add up, like at his peak CP3 was both decreasing his counterparts usage/efficiency via some funk stat company.

And its not just about defending your 1 man, its ultimately how active you are at help and recovery. Some of the worst defenders of all-time were actually pretty decent on sticking with their own assignment.

TotesMagotes
09-30-2016, 04:05 PM
I always thought the best way to utilize Rose was to have him drive to the lane, then either shoot or kick the ball out to the perimeter. The problem last season was that he settled for far too many jump shots, seemingly afraid to risk injury by going to the paint.

He's inefficient as a shooter, so if you see him starting the season with a lot of jump shots, you have reason to be concerned.

5ass
09-30-2016, 04:45 PM
His box score numbers were better after the season. But, he still wasn't that efficient:
52.1ts%
49.5efg%
101 ORtg
27.8usg%


so he used up a lot of shots, didn't get to the line, and didn't really create well for others considering his usage was so high. That 101 ORtg says a lot, because while he was no longer abysmal in scoring efficiency, he wasn't making the offense much better either. He simply got his, and the shots he took he actually made over those 21 games s/p all-star break. Which isn't a large sample, and the shots he finally made over that stretch he hasn't shown to be able to make consistently since 2012.

Plus he was really disinterested, passionless, and didn't want to guard pick & rolls.

So he basically just got hot from the perimeter? I keep seeing his post all-star stats and really that's just a small sample size of 21 games. Rose shooting 38% from three means nothing for such a small sample size. I'm sure even some of the leagues worst shooters have done that at one point. Can he do it over a full season? I doubt it. It's more likely he shoots in the low 30's.

Scoots
09-30-2016, 05:20 PM
Rose is better than SOME people think ... and he's worse than some people think. The same as every player in the league.

nycericanguy
09-30-2016, 05:23 PM
So he basically just got hot from the perimeter? I keep seeing his post all-star stats and really that's just a small sample size of 21 games. Rose shooting 38% from three means nothing for such a small sample size. I'm sure even some of the leagues worst shooters have done that at one point. Can he do it over a full season? I doubt it. It's more likely he shoots in the low 30's.

more than 21 games, you can go back really to Dec and he shot over 45%. it was really just the first month where he was in the 30's.

Last 50 games or so he was over 45% from the field which is certainly respectable and in line with his career average.

5ass
09-30-2016, 06:52 PM
more than 21 games, you can go back really to Dec and he shot over 45%. it was really just the first month where he was in the 30's.

Last 50 games or so he was over 45% from the field which is certainly respectable and in line with his career average.
45% from the field still doesn't mean he'll be an efficient scorer, which isn't good for a scoring PG who doesn't play much defense. He likely won't be getting to the FT line much and wont be making many threes. Look at his numbers in Feb. which was one of his best months. He averaged 22 PPG and shot 44% from the field. That looks good, but its actually just a 50.8 TS% on 33% USG. So really its not that impressive. I think the most realistic best case scenario for Rose is to be a similar player to Reggie Jackson, who I consider an average PG.

Stunner
09-30-2016, 06:52 PM
So he basically just got hot from the perimeter? I keep seeing his post all-star stats and really that's just a small sample size of 21 games. Rose shooting 38% from three means nothing for such a small sample size. I'm sure even some of the leagues worst shooters have done that at one point. Can he do it over a full season? I doubt it. It's more likely he shoots in the low 30's.

Rose actually been playing decent since Jan 1st , everyone just brings up Post all star because that's what the media choose and when Butler went out .

Shammyguy3
09-30-2016, 08:02 PM
I'm sure you saw a lot of him.

that being said, 52.1 TS and 49.5eFG is ABOVE his career averages. Even MVP Rose eFG was .485%. He's never been a high volume 3pt shooter, but I don't think that makes him inefficient or a huge FT guy.

If your shooting line is 47/38/78 that's pretty damn good.

also it seems the entire culture in CHI went down the shoot after Thibs left, so if you say he looked disinterested and passionless, well then I look forward to seeing him rejuvenated in NY.

But that's not all there is to his efficiency. Also if you ignore his post ACL, meniscus seasons his numbers are much better. You can't go by his career numbers because he's had really good seasons and really bad seasons.

That line is good overall for scoring but offensive production from a point guard is a lot more than hash lines. You have to factor in three point and free throw rates, assists and turnovers etc

Captain Moroni
09-30-2016, 08:22 PM
He was one of the worst starting PG's in the league last year. If you believe he's going to be THAT bad again, then yeah, he's probably better than you think. He's not going to suddenly become very good again though.

Well last year we had Jose Calderon and Langston Galloway running the Point. So if you truly believe Derrick Rose was that bad, you don't know what the word "worst" means.

Captain Moroni
09-30-2016, 08:24 PM
I always thought the best way to utilize Rose was to have him drive to the lane, then either shoot or kick the ball out to the perimeter. The problem last season was that he settled for far too many jump shots, seemingly afraid to risk injury by going to the paint.

He's inefficient as a shooter, so if you see him starting the season with a lot of jump shots, you have reason to be concerned.

I agree 100% with this. The offense the Knicks will run is not conducive to a jump shooting PG.

Captain Moroni
09-30-2016, 08:28 PM
Rose is better than SOME people think ... and he's worse than some people think. The same as every player in the league.

Yup. It's all about how you fit your skill set into your teams offense. Not one Knicks fan I know is even remotely thinking DRose is an MVP caliber player. As a matter of fact, we didn't think he was MVP when he won it!

Captain Moroni
09-30-2016, 08:34 PM
I will say this, Rose is still deadly penetrating the lane, his God given talent is still there. He is trying to prove himself to an entire city, while playing for his next big contract at age 27. All things considered, he is primed for a good season. Bottom line is that no one really knows until tipoff.

KG2TB
09-30-2016, 08:38 PM
He was decent the second half the season and I think he'll be decent if he stays healthy. The biggest problem to me is he just seemed completely disinterested and was just going through the motions. He rarely attacked, did not push the ball in transition, and took a ton of games off (even ones he played). He made a comment after his 2nd knee injury that basketball was becoming a job to him where before it was something he loved. Well, it's shown ever since. The guy doesn't have the same zest for the game and while he'll string together some solid performances (on prime time or against LeBron or an elite PG), he'll by an large give you 75% effort at best.

Vee-Rex
09-30-2016, 09:02 PM
I think the change in scenery should help Rose out. If he stays healthy (really big if), I can see him being an average point guard, which would be a pretty big upgrade over what the Knicks had last year.

I'm looking forward to seeing how their pieces fit together.

europagnpilgrim
10-01-2016, 02:03 AM
I don't know, but I need to vent. As a lifelong Knicks fan could somebody please tell me what the **** Phil Jackson was doing when he traded for Rose ? According to reports, he knew full well that Rose was going to be involved in a trial. Now I am not saying Rose is innocent or guilty, but to take on something like this when you are rebuilding a basketball team is insanity. Although I am leaning on the side that this is an extortion case, the text messages that went public makes Rose look like a complete scumbag no matter how this shakes out. So now instead of us talking about Porzingis in year two and the addition of Courtney Lee and Noah, we have to talk about a rape trial. It's almost too wacky to be true, surreal.

i see where you coming from but when you have the Jerry Jones NBA version in Dolan running the show as far as ownership/money then any publicity is good for the Knicks since they haven't been talked about in the media for winning in quite some time so they want to control the headlines by having this type of coverage to go along with a for once decent off season, but the main headlines will be once again will Melo want out if they don't pan out plus the Rose trial along with will Phil step down anyday now, those 3 topics will be the biggest storylines of the Knicks season, unless they actually stay healthy and play up to potential and make a postseason run, I hope the Knicks do well since its good for the league as a whole but going off of past few years its not looking good

like the old saying goes, good or bad publicity reigns supreme

NYC is the king of publicity or queen depending how the LA/Hollywood market feels

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-01-2016, 08:27 AM
Rose is known to have a injury history as well as Noah.

nycericanguy
10-01-2016, 11:08 AM
But that's not all there is to his efficiency. Also if you ignore his post ACL, meniscus seasons his numbers are much better. You can't go by his career numbers because he's had really good seasons and really bad seasons.

That line is good overall for scoring but offensive production from a point guard is a lot more than hash lines. You have to factor in three point and free throw rates, assists and turnovers etc

i get what you're saying, but Rose's game has never been about efficiency. he's always been meh... he's an attacking PG that pressures defense, in the mold of Westbrook.

Westbrook's career eFG is only 46% and his career TS% is also around 52% like Rose was last year after the eye injury.

KnickNyKnick
10-01-2016, 12:57 PM
I will say this, Rose is still deadly penetrating the lane, his God given talent is still there. He is trying to prove himself to an entire city, while playing for his next big contract at age 27. All things considered, he is primed for a good season. Bottom line is that no one really knows until tipoff.

thats what im saying, we really dont know anything about Rose right now. Aside from the fact that things were looking up last season for him.

Thats the only evidence we have of anything right now. And it points to a positive future if thats indeed the real path he's stays on.

we can only go by that for now, but we really dont know.

but hes only been in the league 8 years, didnt play for 2 of them, and 2 more with only playing half the season. its not like yes worn out and broken.. we forget the man is still pretty young, and young bodies recover quite well.

28 in a few days,

funny thing about this Oct 4th

1-First preseason game with the Knicks
2-Date of court trial of sexual "assault"
3- His Birthday... LoL!

Happy 28th Birthday Rose..the planets are aligning for you.

kozelkid
10-01-2016, 01:34 PM
I really just don't get the move if Knicks intend to continue to run the triangle. The guy is the polar opposite of a floor spacer/3pt threat which is what you need at the pg position for said system.

To put it bluntly, the most irritating thing with Rose is just how low his BBIQ really is. He is the classic example of someone who had RIDICULOUS athleticism, but was never able to continue to grow mentally enough to supplant that once it started to go away.

His injuries aside, his athleticism isn't quite there anymore yet he has struggled to accept that and still chucks way too many shots and refuses to accept the fact that he isn't a number one anymore. It's why he and Jimmy failed last year. It's also magnified by the fact that he is a pg in the first place and never was very good at making his teammates better either.

Ideally, he'd accept all this and become a bonafide 6th man, because frankly, I don't think he'd have the IQ or court awareness/vision at this point to become a complete, smart, big pg who doesn't have that same speed anymore but still is stronger than 90% of pg's (ala Andre Miller or Chauncey Billups).

kozelkid
10-01-2016, 01:39 PM
i get what you're saying, but Rose's game has never been about efficiency. he's always been meh... he's an attacking PG that pressures defense, in the mold of Westbrook.

Westbrook's career eFG is only 46% and his career TS% is also around 52% like Rose was last year after the eye injury.

That's a fair point. His game mirrored AI's game a lot in his prime. However, that gives your team a very limited ceiling. In other words, your best bet is to surround him with shooters at the wings and great offensive rebounds and defensive oriented big men. That's what made the 2001 Sixers work and similarly the 2010 Bulls (though their shooting at the wings was still too limited). Unfortunately, that type of game plan completely contrasts the triangle so unless Knicks are going to scrap that... Furthermore, it really negates Melo's value. Not to mention aside from that gameplan, Rose was almost worthless whenever he played off the ball. And finally, I don't think Rose has the stamina to do that consistently anymore anyway.

nycericanguy
10-01-2016, 02:08 PM
That's a fair point. His game mirrored AI's game a lot in his prime. However, that gives your team a very limited ceiling. In other words, your best bet is to surround him with shooters at the wings and great offensive rebounds and defensive oriented big men. That's what made the 2001 Sixers work and similarly the 2010 Bulls (though their shooting at the wings was still too limited). Unfortunately, that type of game plan completely contrasts the triangle so unless Knicks are going to scrap that... Furthermore, it really negates Melo's value. Not to mention aside from that gameplan, Rose was almost worthless whenever he played off the ball. And finally, I don't think Rose has the stamina to do that consistently anymore anyway.

knicks arent going to run much triangle, jeff wants to run and use a lot of P&R with Rose & KP that should be deadly.

Rose has alot more offensive talent around him than AI did. Melo shot over 49% the 1 full season he played with AI... I think he'll be more efficient finally having someone else that can create offense for him and others.

Lee, KP & Melo are all good floor spacers too. I don't see why Rose would play off the ball much.

IndyRealist
10-01-2016, 03:19 PM
i get what you're saying, but Rose's game has never been about efficiency. he's always been meh... he's an attacking PG that pressures defense, in the mold of Westbrook.

Westbrook's career eFG is only 46% and his career TS% is also around 52% like Rose was last year after the eye injury.

First, Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%, so if you're going to round, round up.

Last year Westbrook shot 48.9% eFG and 55.4% TS. If you're taking the most recent healthy Derrick Rose vs. the most recent healhty Russell Westbrook, it's not even close. You can't compare someone's entire career, including rookie season and injured seasons, to a cherry-picked subset of one season.

And Rose does not provide anything else that Westbrook does, defense, rebounding, etc. Rose is a scoring guard who doesn't score well. Westbrook is a two-way player who blows Rose out of the water in scoring.

Your best bet is if Rose works almost exclusively on his 3pt shooting and uses the threat of the 3 to open up the paint for himself. He's not beating people off the dribble consistently anymore. Whether that's physical or mental is known to Rose, no one else.

nycericanguy
10-01-2016, 03:24 PM
First, Westbrook's career TS% is 52.9%, so if you're going to round, round up.

Last year Westbrook shot 48.9% eFG and 55.4% TS. If you're taking the most recent healthy Derrick Rose vs. the most recent healhty Russell Westbrook, it's not even close. You can't compare someone's entire career, including rookie season and injured seasons, to a cherry-picked subset of one season.

And Rose does not provide anything else that Westbrook does, defense, rebounding, etc. Rose is a scoring guard who doesn't score well. Westbrook is a two-way player who blows Rose out of the water in scoring.

Your best bet is if Rose works almost exclusively on his 3pt shooting and uses the threat of the 3 to open up the paint for himself. He's not beating people off the dribble consistently anymore. Whether that's physical or mental is known to Rose, no one else.

did i offend you by not rounding up?

Last year Westbrook was one of the best players in teh NBA, so no I'm not going to compare Rose to that. But my point was both play the same attacking style and neither have been all that efficient due to their lack of 3 balls.

Rose after ASB had an eFG of 49% and a TS of 52%. Yea theres some cherry picking there, but the point is that Rose seemed to find his form after the eye injury. and if the Knicks can get that 2nd half of last season Rose, then it's a huge upgrade for them.

IndyRealist
10-01-2016, 03:37 PM
did i offend you by not rounding up?

Last year Westbrook was one of the best players in teh NBA, so no I'm not going to compare Rose to that. But my point was both play the same attacking style and neither have been all that efficient due to their lack of 3 balls.

Rose after ASB had an eFG of 49% and a TS of 52%. Yea theres some cherry picking there, but the point is that Rose seemed to find his form after the eye injury. and if the Knicks can get that 2nd half of last season Rose, then it's a huge upgrade for them.

Well, kinda :P 1% is a lot in career TS%. It's misleading to say player A was at 52% and player B was ~around~ 52%, even ignoring the time frames.

Outside of the last two years, RWB hasn't been a great or even good scorer. His value was in everything else he did. The last two he went berserk. So comparing part of one season to a career meh scorer just means you have a meh scorer if he holds par, who doesn't do anything else.

Is he an upgrade? Maybe, maybe not. But some people have them a lock in the playoffs, while others think 39 wins is optimistic. I lean toward overrated, and i think there's a certain amount of "at least he's not Jose Calderon" which has nothing to do with how Rose will actually perform.

Shammyguy3
10-01-2016, 04:41 PM
i get what you're saying, but Rose's game has never been about efficiency. he's always been meh... he's an attacking PG that pressures defense, in the mold of Westbrook.

Westbrook's career eFG is only 46% and his career TS% is also around 52% like Rose was last year after the eye injury.


Rose's game was pretty darn efficient before, here are offensive ratings by year
2009 108
2010 106
2011 113
2012 112
average 110

post injury offensive ratins
2014 88
2015 97
2016 96
average 96


that is a tremendous difference. For comparison, here's Russell Westbrook
2009 99
2010 105
2011 110
2012 108
2013 111
2014 108
2015 111
2016 115
average 109

see the difference? prime Rose, pre-injury, was just as good as this Westbrook in terms of efficiency (for comparison, Allen Iverson in his first stint with Philly had a 104 ORtg).

nycericanguy
10-01-2016, 06:10 PM
Rose's game was pretty darn efficient before, here are offensive ratings by year
2009 108
2010 106
2011 113
2012 112
average 110

post injury offensive ratins
2014 88
2015 97
2016 96
average 96


that is a tremendous difference. For comparison, here's Russell Westbrook
2009 99
2010 105
2011 110
2012 108
2013 111
2014 108
2015 111
2016 115
average 109

see the difference? prime Rose, pre-injury, was just as good as this Westbrook in terms of efficiency (for comparison, Allen Iverson in his first stint with Philly had a 104 ORtg).

how does ORTG measure an individuals efficiency? isnt that a team stat?

also what was his ORTG post ASB? because I think we can all agree Rose was HORRENDOUS early in 2016.

Shammyguy3
10-01-2016, 06:27 PM
how does ORTG measure an individuals efficiency? isnt that a team stat?

also what was his ORTG post ASB? because I think we can all agree Rose was HORRENDOUS early in 2016.

""Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"

The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers."


Scoring possessions include made field goals and assists, factors in offensive rebounding because it increases the likelihood of scoring on subsequent possessions, etc. It encompasses everything that goes into an offense. It is both for overall team offensive ratings, but is also an individual stat (like how field goal percentage is calculated for a team, but also is something you can quantify for individual players).

I already posted his ORtg post all-star break in this thread. It was 101 (his offensive rating pre all-star break was 93). The average offensive rating for last season was ~103

jimm120
10-01-2016, 07:54 PM
Pretty much every article I've read talks about how Rose was not a starting caliber PG last year and how awful his numbers were.

But no one actually talks about what happened last year.

Day 1 of training camp he was hit in the eye and had double vision for the following 3 months or so. He had surgery on the eye the next day and missed all of training camp. Rose probably needed that camp more than anyone to shake off the rust.

So yes he was absolutely AWFUL the first 8-10 weeks of the season. To me the eye was a freak injury though, not something to worry about. His knees have been good for a while now.

But Rose after the all star break

17.4ppg, 4.6apg 3.1rpg. A shooting line of 47/38/78 in 30mpg.

Are those the numbers of a "horrible" PG? A non starting caliber PG? He actually scored more on a per minute basis and more efficiently than his career numbers post all star break.

Now of course the first 8-10 weeks when he was shooting around 33% really drag all his numbers and advanced stats down.

I don't think anyone expects MVP Rose again, nor do the Knicks need him to be, but this idea that he is one of the worst PG's in the league and not starting caliber is really overblown and not within context of what happened last year.

He was one of the worst players in the league the first 2 months.
His offense improved a lot from Jan-Mar. His defense somehow got even worse.

So, while his offense improved, his defense went from bad to worse.

Sadds The Gr8
10-01-2016, 09:09 PM
I'm not buying the cherry-picked Jan-Mar stats. I think he'll be mediocre at best just like he's been every since he's been injured.

More-Than-Most
10-01-2016, 11:36 PM
No... No he isn't. He is quite literally one of the worst defenders IN BASKETBALL... Not just at his position... He couldn't just not defend PG but guys who were terrible would blow by him like there was no tomorrow... I can live with mediocrity on offense at the PG position but if we even consider him that how god awful he is on defense makes him a negative value player and the sad part is they gave up a really good underrated player to get him.

I actually feel bad for Melo because Rose is gonna go to make a move and instead of dishing out to the open man he will just pull up and take a low percentage shot and normally again as bad as this is only he could find a way to make it worse by standing there/reacting late and being completely useless when the other team goes on a fastbreak.

I am sorry... Its not because he joined new york and simply his game for the past few years.

ewing
10-02-2016, 01:26 AM
No... No he isn't. He is quite literally one of the worst defenders IN BASKETBALL... Not just at his position... He couldn't just not defend PG but guys who were terrible would blow by him like there was no tomorrow... I can live with mediocrity on offense at the PG position but if we even consider him that how god awful he is on defense makes him a negative value player and the sad part is they gave up a really good underrated player to get him.

I actually feel bad for Melo because Rose is gonna go to make a move and instead of dishing out to the open man he will just pull up and take a low percentage shot and normally again as bad as this is only he could find a way to make it worse by standing there/reacting late and being completely useless when the other team goes on a fastbreak.

I am sorry... Its not because he joined new york and simply his game for the past few years.


So you're a Rose fan?

More-Than-Most
10-02-2016, 03:14 AM
So you're a Rose fan?

Sure when he was good and fun to watch... And even when he was at his best he wasnt good defensively :shrug:

If you are the knicks Rubio would have been a much better route than Rose.

Crackadalic
10-02-2016, 06:19 AM
As long as Rose is decent on offense and attacks IDC really. You still need a guard that penetrates even if he doesn't pass to the open man.

Crackadalic
10-02-2016, 06:21 AM
Sure when he was good and fun to watch... And even when he was at his best he wasnt good defensively :shrug:

If you are the knicks Rubio would have been a much better route than Rose.

I got bash by some knick fans for being on the rubio train. One of the best defensive point guards right now

KnicksorBust
10-02-2016, 10:00 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17686241/best-training-camp-my-career

Derrick Rose is having the best training camp of his career. He is young (27), in shape, and and on a team full of floor spacers so he can attack the basket. I think Nycericanguy is right that we are more likely to see the end of the year Rose than the beginning of the year and when you consider the upgrade of that player vs calderon/galloway/grant it is a no brainer. I just hope he shares the ball. Porzingis is really the player that will decide if we are a 50 win team vs a 40 win team.

ewing
10-02-2016, 10:02 AM
Sure when he was good and fun to watch... And even when he was at his best he wasnt good defensively :shrug:

If you are the knicks Rubio would have been a much better route than Rose.

********

nycericanguy
10-02-2016, 10:08 AM
was looking at his injury history, the last knee injury he had was the torn right meniscus in feb 2015. So almost 2 years ago. since then it was just the eye thing.

Really hoping its behind him at this point. and really hoping he comes out of the gate better than last year now that he had a training camp and no eye issues.

nycericanguy
10-02-2016, 10:11 AM
I'm not buying the cherry-picked Jan-Mar stats. I think he'll be mediocre at best just like he's been every since he's been injured.

its not really cherry picked, it makes sense that he would have struggled early last year with no training camp, and double vision. Especially considering how little he had played prior to that. He needed that training camp more than anyone! Seems once the rust came off he got into a nice rhythm.

northsider
10-02-2016, 10:55 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17686241/best-training-camp-my-career

Derrick Rose is having the best training camp of his career. He is young (27), in shape, and and on a team full of floor spacers so he can attack the basket. I think Nycericanguy is right that we are more likely to see the end of the year Rose than the beginning of the year and when you consider the upgrade of that player vs calderon/galloway/grant it is a no brainer. I just hope he shares the ball. Porzingis is really the player that will decide if we are a 50 win team vs a 40 win team.

Nice that would make that 4 years in a row he's stated the same ****.

KnicksorBust
10-02-2016, 11:26 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17686241/best-training-camp-my-career

Derrick Rose is having the best training camp of his career. He is young (27), in shape, and and on a team full of floor spacers so he can attack the basket. I think Nycericanguy is right that we are more likely to see the end of the year Rose than the beginning of the year and when you consider the upgrade of that player vs calderon/galloway/grant it is a no brainer. I just hope he shares the ball. Porzingis is really the player that will decide if we are a 50 win team vs a 40 win team.

Nice that would make that 4 years in a row he's stated the same ****.

He has missed 2 training camps in the last 5 years. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

nycericanguy
10-02-2016, 11:35 AM
Nice that would make that 4 years in a row he's stated the same ****.

last year when he got hit in the eye on day 1 of camp and needed surgery the next day and missed the rest of camp, he said it was the best training camp ever?...lol

KnicksorBust
10-02-2016, 11:44 AM
I'm not buying the cherry-picked Jan-Mar stats. I think he'll be mediocre at best just like he's been every since he's been injured.

its not really cherry picked, it makes sense that he would have struggled early last year with no training camp, and double vision. Especially considering how little he had played prior to that. He needed that training camp more than anyone! Seems once the rust came off he got into a nice rhythm.

We also shouldn't ignore the fans that got to watch him play everyday. They know the difference between MVP Rose and the player that was on the court at the end of last season.

Redrum187
10-02-2016, 11:50 AM
I'd easily take Jrue Holiday over D Rose.

Shammyguy3
10-02-2016, 12:47 PM
Sure when he was good and fun to watch... And even when he was at his best he wasnt good defensively :shrug:

If you are the knicks Rubio would have been a much better route than Rose.

Rose was really good defensively in 2011/2012 under Thibs actually. Nobody could kick the stigma that he was a poor defender though (his rookie season and sophomore year)


I'd easily take Jrue Holiday over D Rose.

Me too

Stunner
10-02-2016, 01:19 PM
He has missed 2 training camps in the last 5 years. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Don't mind him [emoji24][emoji24]

effen5
10-02-2016, 02:27 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17686241/best-training-camp-my-career

Derrick Rose is having the best training camp of his career. He is young (27), in shape, and and on a team full of floor spacers so he can attack the basket. I think Nycericanguy is right that we are more likely to see the end of the year Rose than the beginning of the year and when you consider the upgrade of that player vs calderon/galloway/grant it is a no brainer. I just hope he shares the ball. Porzingis is really the player that will decide if we are a 50 win team vs a 40 win team.

He seriously says this every year.

Just wait for the article where he says he's improved his jumpshot and added more to his game and how nobody on his team can stop him.

Same **** different year different team. Glad he's finally off the Bulls.

Stunner
10-02-2016, 03:04 PM
Well Rose last year said this was the best off season he had since his MVP year and prob true seeing he didn't have to rehab anything . Then first day he gets hit in his eye and everything goes out the window and he has no rhythm and playing with a bad eye half the year.




Rose prob is having a great training Camp and working out with melo and his other teammates. Who are we to question him ? As long as he doesn't have any setbacks this pre season he will be ok

effen5
10-02-2016, 10:22 PM
Rose is probably having a great training camp because he knows this is his last chance for a contract. We know he doesn't give a **** about basketball.

nycericanguy
10-02-2016, 10:31 PM
Well Rose last year said this was the best off season he had since his MVP year and prob true seeing he didn't have to rehab anything . Then first day he gets hit in his eye and everything goes out the window and he has no rhythm and playing with a bad eye half the year.




Rose prob is having a great training Camp and working out with melo and his other teammates. Who are we to question him ? As long as he doesn't have any setbacks this pre season he will be ok

when was the last time Rose had a rehab free summer AND a training camp? This might be the first time since 2011? I think he showed flashes last year of old Rose, but I don't think he attacks like he used to. Maybe that will come with time. Hoping he's ultra motivated this year.

I honestly expect great bounce back years from Rose & Noah next season... but the following 3 years scare me with Noah. And obviously resigning Rose to big money would scare me too.

nycericanguy
10-02-2016, 10:33 PM
Rose is probably having a great training camp because he knows this is his last chance for a contract. We know he doesn't give a **** about basketball.

ehh, he says some reallllly dumb stuff. He has to have an IQ of like 75... honestly one of the dumbest sounding players I've ever heard. It's early in his Knick career, but I've already learned not to listen to anything he says...lol. But I don't know how you could say he doesnt care about basketball... seems ball is all he's ever known.

Sadds The Gr8
10-03-2016, 01:28 AM
I'd easily take Jrue Holiday over D Rose.

both play like 12 games per season

xxplayerxx23
10-03-2016, 02:14 AM
When you have noah and Kp down low I'm not highly concered with his defense. He can't be any worse than Calderon on that end. Just Need him to attack the rim and play above average ball

More-Than-Most
10-03-2016, 02:20 AM
When you have noah and Kp down low I'm not highly concered with his defense. He can't be any worse than Calderon on that end. Just Need him to attack the rim and play above average ball

Welp this is 100 percent true and something I honestly didnt think about.

IndyRealist
10-03-2016, 11:25 AM
When you have noah and Kp down low I'm not highly concered with his defense. He can't be any worse than Calderon on that end. Just Need him to attack the rim and play above average ball

If he could play above average ball this wouldn't be a discussion. But he hasn't been above average in a long time.

tredigs
10-03-2016, 11:39 AM
At KnicksorBust, if you think the Knicks are a 40-50 win team, you should jump all over their Vegas over/under at 38.5 wins (personally I'd have the under).

DRose, the only MVP who will never make the Hall. No, I don't predict a great year for him. Too fragile. No jumper, and a lack of his early years explosion. He's just not an elite player. If he stays healthy he'll be serviceable and offer some highlight-reel plays for the fans at MSG, but he's definitely not a game changer in the league at this point. I think we've seen enough of a sample size over the last half decade.

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 01:24 PM
At KnicksorBust, if you think the Knicks are a 40-50 win team, you should jump all over their Vegas over/under at 38.5 wins (personally I'd have the under).

DRose, the only MVP who will never make the Hall. No, I don't predict a great year for him. Too fragile. No jumper, and a lack of his early years explosion. He's just not an elite player. If he stays healthy he'll be serviceable and offer some highlight-reel plays for the fans at MSG, but he's definitely not a game changer in the league at this point. I think we've seen enough of a sample size over the last half decade.

I put $50 on it for kicks. I'm a teacher and a dad to twins so I'm not exactly riding in jets and limos high roller style. :laugh: If you are feeling confident I'd definitely be up for a sig bet on it. I'll take over 38.5 wins for the Knicks.

nycericanguy
10-03-2016, 01:40 PM
At KnicksorBust, if you think the Knicks are a 40-50 win team, you should jump all over their Vegas over/under at 38.5 wins (personally I'd have the under).

DRose, the only MVP who will never make the Hall. No, I don't predict a great year for him. Too fragile. No jumper, and a lack of his early years explosion. He's just not an elite player. If he stays healthy he'll be serviceable and offer some highlight-reel plays for the fans at MSG, but he's definitely not a game changer in the league at this point. I think we've seen enough of a sample size over the last half decade.

i'm def putting a few G's on OVER.

Rose may not be a good 3pt shooter but he did shoot 48% last year midrange (10-15 feet) which is helpful in halfcourt triangle.

tredigs
10-03-2016, 01:54 PM
i'm def putting a few G's on OVER.

Rose may not be a good 3pt shooter but he did shoot 48% last year midrange (10-15 feet) which is helpful in halfcourt triangle.

And 28% from 10-15 the 50 games the year prior. He's an OK pull and pop guy from there but without his early-years explosion it's just not something defenses have to worry about. Even if he maintained the 48% (he probably won't) it's a shot teams deal with. To be honest I wouldn't actually bet the under on them, but a .500 team battling for the 8th seed does seem to be on the higher end of a scenario to me. I could very easily see 40-42 and missing the playoffs (which is better than Vegas projects).

nycericanguy
10-03-2016, 01:58 PM
And 28% from 10-15 the 50 games the year prior. He's an OK pull and pop guy from there but without his early-years explosion it's just not something defenses have to worry about. Even if he maintained the 48% (he probably won't) it's a shot teams deal with. To be honest I wouldn't actually bet the under on them, but a .500 team battling for the 8th seed does seem to be on the higher end of a scenario to me. I could very easily see 40-42 and missing the playoffs (which is better than Vegas projects).

not putting too much stock into his numbers during his injury years TBH. Knicks have to hope they are getting post ASB Rose. which I think is a reasonable expectation. He's usually been very good from mid range.

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 02:24 PM
And 28% from 10-15 the 50 games the year prior. He's an OK pull and pop guy from there but without his early-years explosion it's just not something defenses have to worry about. Even if he maintained the 48% (he probably won't) it's a shot teams deal with. To be honest I wouldn't actually bet the under on them, but a .500 team battling for the 8th seed does seem to be on the higher end of a scenario to me. I could very easily see 40-42 and missing the playoffs (which is better than Vegas projects).

I'll give you 41.5 as the line. Considering you seemed tempted by 38.5 as the line then this should be a no brainer. :)

tredigs
10-03-2016, 03:59 PM
I'll give you 41.5 as the line. Considering you seemed tempted by 38.5 as the line then this should be a no brainer. :)
Still not a bet that particularly appeals to me, nor do I think you'd be willing to wager an amount that I'd care about and beyond that it's not as if I trust you to actually pay out.

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 04:34 PM
Still not a bet that particularly appeals to me, nor do I think you'd be willing to wager an amount that I'd care about and beyond that it's not as if I trust you to actually pay out.

I was going to say we do a sig bet for life not money. I would never trust an actual money bet with someone from ProSportsDaily. :laugh: You don't seem confident in your side at all anymore though even after I bumped the line a full 3 wins.

tredigs
10-03-2016, 04:41 PM
I was going to say we do a sig bet for life not money. I would never trust an actual money bet with someone from ProSportsDaily. :laugh: You don't seem confident in your side at all anymore though even after I bumped the line a full 3 wins.

Well I'm not 11, so I don't bother with sig-bets. Sorry dude.

I will say that I think reaching .500 would be a win for the franchise at this point. I'm skeptical that they can make it there.

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 04:55 PM
Well I'm not 11, so I don't bother with sig-bets. Sorry dude.

I will say that I think reaching .500 would be a win for the franchise at this point. I'm skeptical that they can make it there.

Oh we will hit over .500 friend. Don't you worry. Thanks for setting the low bar for us. :)

You've always been a little condescending to people on this forum. Would have been fun to own your sig for eternity. Oh well. You ran pretty quickly from taking under on the Vegas line 38.5 to being afraid of 41.5. Can't believe I gave you 3 free wins and you still backed out. But of course it's because it would be such an 11 year old bet! soooo childish! We're all so mature on PSD. :laugh:

tredigs
10-03-2016, 05:04 PM
Oh we will hit over .500 friend. Don't you worry. Thanks for setting the low bar for us. :)

You've always been a little condescending to people on this forum. Would have been fun to own your sig for eternity. Oh well. You ran pretty quickly from taking under on the Vegas line 38.5 to being afraid of 41.5. Can't believe I gave you 3 free wins and you still backed out. But of course it's because it would be such an 11 year old bet! soooo childish! We're all so mature on PSD. :laugh:

The original condescending here is all on you man. I don't have a sig and don't care enough to sig-bet the Knicks on whether they'll be terrible or just OK. Sorry. If 41.5 was a legit line at the book I would probably place some money on them failing to reach .500. It's a **** roster.

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 05:19 PM
The original condescending here is all on you man.

Don't really see how that's true. :confused:



I don't have a sig and don't care enough to sig-bet the Knicks on whether they'll be terrible or just OK. Sorry. If 41.5 was a legit line at the book I would probably place some money on them failing to reach .500. It's a **** roster.

Baiting much? :laugh: You liked the under at 38.5 and now admit if 41.5 was the real line you'd back it up with cash. If it's such a **** roster let's make a sig bet on it. It's just a friendly internet forum. Nothing to lose. It'll make the season more interesting. Give you an excuse to watch more Porzingis. I'm just trying to persuade you because there's not a doubt in my mind that I will win that bet and own your sig for life. But you don't seem so sure anymore... even though you are still taking cheap shots.

tredigs
10-03-2016, 05:26 PM
Don't really see how that's true. :confused:




Baiting much? :laugh: You liked the under at 38.5 and now admit if 41.5 was the real line you'd back it up with cash. If it's such a **** roster let's make a sig bet on it. It's just a friendly internet forum. Nothing to lose. It'll make the season more interesting. Give you an excuse to watch more Porzingis. I'm just trying to persuade you because there's not a doubt in my mind that I will win that bet and own your sig for life. But you don't seem so sure anymore... even though you are still taking cheap shots.

I just read back on the thread and saw your initial reply to my post. We're fine dude. I'm not going to let you "have my sig for life" if the Knicks happen to luck into ~43 wins, and I truly could not care less about having your sig either. I understand you're a Knick fan and probably don't like the way I am objectively talking about the team IMO (it's not a bait, I think that roster is very poorly constructed... granted, options were limited), but I just don't care about them enough to make this any more than a few random comments on PSD.

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 05:32 PM
Don't really see how that's true. :confused:




Baiting much? :laugh: You liked the under at 38.5 and now admit if 41.5 was the real line you'd back it up with cash. If it's such a **** roster let's make a sig bet on it. It's just a friendly internet forum. Nothing to lose. It'll make the season more interesting. Give you an excuse to watch more Porzingis. I'm just trying to persuade you because there's not a doubt in my mind that I will win that bet and own your sig for life. But you don't seem so sure anymore... even though you are still taking cheap shots.

I just read back on the thread and saw your initial reply to my post. We're fine dude. I'm not going to let you "have my sig for life" if the Knicks happen to luck into ~43 wins, and I truly could not care less about having your sig either. I understand you're a Knick fan and probably don't like the way I am objectively talking about the team IMO (it's not a bait, I think that roster is very poorly constructed... granted, options were limited), but I just don't care about them enough to make this any more than a few random comments on PSD.

Still thinking calling another teams roster "****" without any actual arguments is kind of a troll move. :laugh: anyway...

Hoped you would bite on the bet. Would have been fun and felt I had the edge. Oh well. Moving on.

tredigs
10-03-2016, 05:47 PM
Still thinking calling another teams roster "****" without any actual arguments is kind of a troll move. :laugh: anyway...

Hoped you would bite on the bet. Would have been fun and felt I had the edge. Oh well. Moving on.

The continuity adjustments and more so the offensive adjustments for a PG in a brand new system, the injury liabilities, the complete fall of Noah in the past year and half+, the aging of Melo (32 going on 33 year old wings really start to show their age, especially with the miles he logged). I like Porzingis, and really nothing else. I will say this, I just got my League Pass set up and will add the Knicks to my 8 (just used it to watch Oladipo smash on a Spaniard in their Real Madrid matchup today... could be a fun addition with Russy in their backcourt... maybe the most athletic 1-2 all time).

KnicksorBust
10-03-2016, 07:42 PM
Still thinking calling another teams roster "****" without any actual arguments is kind of a troll move. :laugh: anyway...

Hoped you would bite on the bet. Would have been fun and felt I had the edge. Oh well. Moving on.

The continuity adjustments and more so the offensive adjustments for a PG in a brand new system, the injury liabilities, the complete fall of Noah in the past year and half+, the aging of Melo (32 going on 33 year old wings really start to show their age, especially with the miles he logged). I like Porzingis, and really nothing else. I will say this, I just got my League Pass set up and will add the Knicks to my 8 (just used it to watch Oladipo smash on a Spaniard in their Real Madrid matchup today... could be a fun addition with Russy in their backcourt... maybe the most athletic 1-2 all time).

Well that is rational and logical. So irritating. I think I liked it better when you said the roster was ****. Let's go back to that.

tredigs
10-03-2016, 09:11 PM
Well that is rational and logical. So irritating. I think I liked it better when you said the roster was ****. Let's go back to that.

Upside is Porz going god-mode and winning 5-7 games they have no business in. That's their best chance at 43+ I think. I truly don't love their chances at .500 as is.

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 09:16 AM
Upside is Porz going god-mode and winning 5-7 games they have no business in. That's their best chance at 43+ I think. I truly don't love their chances at .500 as is.

KP goes god mode and you think they are still barely a .500 team?... wow...

If KP turns into a beast is there a better duo in the east than Melo & KP outside of CLE? Surrounded by good role players and good depth.

tredigs
10-04-2016, 09:55 AM
KP goes god mode and you think they are still barely a .500 team?... wow...

If KP turns into a beast is there a better duo in the east than Melo & KP outside of CLE? Surrounded by good role players and good depth.

By "God-Mode" I'm speaking in psycophant NYC fan standards. His apex potential next year would be becoming a top 20 player in the game (hint: most teams have one). I can see him shifting 5-7 games in their favor in a best case scenario, but again this is a team the objective experts have pegged at 35-39 wins. You're not making the ECF's dude.

ewing
10-04-2016, 10:17 AM
By "God-Mode" I'm speaking in psycophant NYC fan standards. His apex potential next year would be becoming a top 20 player in the game (hint: most teams have one). I can see him shifting 5-7 games in their favor in a best case scenario, but again this is a team the objective experts have pegged at 35-39 wins. You're not making the ECF's dude.

the knicks are a super team

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 10:41 AM
By "God-Mode" I'm speaking in psycophant NYC fan standards. His apex potential next year would be becoming a top 20 player in the game (hint: most teams have one). I can see him shifting 5-7 games in their favor in a best case scenario, but again this is a team the objective experts have pegged at 35-39 wins. You're not making the ECF's dude.

but most teams dont have TWO top 20 players along with a cast of role players. and the ones that do, are certainly better than .500.

Shammyguy3
10-04-2016, 11:07 AM
but most teams dont have TWO top 20 players along with a cast of role players. and the ones that do, are certainly better than .500.

But the Knicks have zero top 20 players :shrug:

effen5
10-04-2016, 12:52 PM
But the Knicks have zero top 20 players :shrug:

Well i would still consider melo a top 20 but outside that they still have a below average team.

tredigs
10-04-2016, 12:57 PM
but most teams dont have TWO top 20 players along with a cast of role players. and the ones that do, are certainly better than .500.

You have one top of 25 player on the decline and one top 50 player you hope makes the leap. Not a fan of the role players or the massive adjustments they have to make. GL though.

Shammyguy3
10-04-2016, 01:36 PM
Well i would still consider melo a top 20 but outside that they still have a below average team.

he's likely considered that high by a good portion of people, but he doesn't really deserve it. I'd give him top-25 but could see him lower depending on what you value

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 02:02 PM
Well i would still consider melo a top 20 but outside that they still have a below average team.

I was responding to tredigs who said even if KP turns into a top 20 player next year the KNicks will still be barely .500

as of now yes Melo is the only top 20 guy on the roster. I mean you can rank him anywhere from 15-25, but he's def around top 20 by almost anyone account.

LoveCaliFan
10-04-2016, 02:11 PM
I've said it before, Rose will be 18ppg/ 5rpg/ 8apg imo..

effen5
10-04-2016, 02:43 PM
I've said it before, Rose will be 18ppg/ 5rpg/ 8apg imo..

How? Rose has NEVER had 5 rebounds or 8 assists per game a year in his ENTIRE career. HE was close to average 8 once but has never had 8 EVER.

Sofnr
10-04-2016, 03:06 PM
How? Rose has NEVER had 5 rebounds or 8 assists per game a year in his ENTIRE career. HE was close to average 8 once but has never had 8 EVER.

But now that he's a Knick he's clearly headed for his best year ever.

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 03:19 PM
How? Rose has NEVER had 5 rebounds or 8 assists per game a year in his ENTIRE career. HE was close to average 8 once but has never had 8 EVER.

not to mention the days of him playing 36+mpg are probably over.

Hornacek does want to run though, and he got career years out of his PG's in PHO. But even with all that it's unlikely.

LoveCaliFan
10-04-2016, 03:43 PM
How? Rose has NEVER had 5 rebounds or 8 assists per game a year in his ENTIRE career. HE was close to average 8 once but has never had 8 EVER.

Melo, KP, Lee, Noah that's how.

Shammyguy3
10-04-2016, 03:49 PM
Melo, KP, Lee, Noah that's how.

Have you watched Joakim Noah the last 4 years? Even if he returns to his scoring form from 3 years ago (the last couple years he's really struggled with layups, even with his better left hand), he still is a big that prefers to operate out of the high post for passing. That takes the ball out of Rose's hands. Melo is an isolation player that will take the ball out of Rose's hands.


Rose didn't average anywhere near 8 assists a game last year, and he played with Jimmy Butler who is better than Carmelo Anthony and Pau Gasol who was still a very productive, top 35ish big man. Courtney Lee being a reason why Rose averages 8 assists doesn't help your argument, because Rose has played with guys like Kyle Korver who are spoon fed shots and prime Rose didn't average that many assists.

smith&wesson
10-04-2016, 04:05 PM
16,4, & 3 and he played 66 games... That's not bad.. I think he will have a similar season this year. His assist numbers will have to go up playing with Melo, and Proz

Stunner
10-04-2016, 04:11 PM
But the Knicks have zero top 20 players :shrug:

Eh melo is top 20

5ass
10-04-2016, 04:39 PM
Yeah I don't think Rose is going to be good this season. Its a good gamble for the knicks, and so is Jennings. The problem is the Knicks picked up two PGs who struggled last year and they're betting on them improving significantly. I would've added a solid, healthy back up PG as well. Someone like Trey Burke. Jennings sucked *** last season.

nycericanguy
10-04-2016, 04:54 PM
Yeah I don't think Rose is going to be good this season. Its a good gamble for the knicks, and so is Jennings. The problem is the Knicks picked up two PGs who struggled last year and they're betting on them improving significantly. I would've added a solid, healthy back up PG as well. Someone like Trey Burke. Jennings sucked *** last season.

not really... I think we're ok with Rose who finished last season.

Now Jennings I do expect improvement... it usually takes a year to come back from the injury he had, so him being bad last year wasn't that much of a surprise. Also curious to see Jennings on a veteran team. I don't think Noah & Co will let any BS fly. And I think the attention that Melo, KP & Rose command will give Jennings lots of good looks.

Crackadalic
10-04-2016, 10:32 PM
Besides his defense Rose look solid

JAZZNC
10-05-2016, 12:48 AM
Yeah I don't think Rose is going to be good this season. Its a good gamble for the knicks, and so is Jennings. The problem is the Knicks picked up two PGs who struggled last year and they're betting on them improving significantly. I would've added a solid, healthy back up PG as well. Someone like Trey Burke. Jennings sucked *** last season.

You obviously have no idea how terrible Trey Burke is. The dude is just plain awful. He's a nice guy but a horrible NBA player.

Stunner
10-05-2016, 06:16 AM
Rose first knick game https://youtu.be/oSy9iuo5J90

nycericanguy
10-05-2016, 09:16 AM
Rose first knick game https://youtu.be/oSy9iuo5J90

our entire defense sucked last night, but two things stuck out at me... KP's shot release and handle look much better, he looked insane last night... and Rose... he's incredibly fast!

Maybe because i'm used to watching Calderon bring it up...lol. but Rose was fast AF!

Stunner
10-05-2016, 09:51 AM
Yea Rose still one of the fastest PGs in the league even after the lower body injuries . He was a bit slower a few years ago when he was carrying more mass .