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spreadeagle
09-19-2016, 05:13 PM
Giannis Antetokounmpo has agreed on a four-year, $100 million contract extension with the Milwaukee Bucks.

The deal is nearly a maximum contract for Antetokounmpo.

Antetokounmpo was selected with the 15th overall pick in the 2013 NBA draft and averaged 16.9 points, 7.7 rebounds. 4.3 assists and 1.4 blocks in 80 games last season.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2016, 05:18 PM
why not give him 5?

dhopisthename
09-19-2016, 06:15 PM
why not give him 5?

yeah I was reading that espn article and it said they were saving it for Jabari which seems stupid since Giannis is already a stud.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-19-2016, 06:21 PM
He took $6M less. Also left $44M on the table not taking year 5. Curious if Parker takes 4 or 5 years? I would of preferred Giannis taking 5. Oh well we will have full Bird rights for a super max. Also reports Giannis working late nights at practice.

kingkenny01
09-19-2016, 07:58 PM
All I have to say is "bucks in 6"

FlashBolt
09-19-2016, 09:01 PM
All I have to say is "bucks in 6"

Against who? They're still very young but unless Parker+Giannis take their game to All-Star levels, they'll be a 1st/2nd round exit. They're all still too raw.

MU and UW Fan
09-19-2016, 10:00 PM
Against who? They're still very young but unless Parker+Giannis take their game to All-Star levels, they'll be a 1st/2nd round exit. They're all still too raw.

For the most part, only Bucks fans understand the "Bucks in 6". Brandon Jennings said that during his last year with the team during first round series against Miami Heat. Even though he had a serious look on his face, he was joking because was he really going to say, yeah we are going to get swept in front of the media.

Dade County
09-19-2016, 10:01 PM
Good for the Bucks...

I will watch him this season & see if all the hype is true.

Shammyguy3
09-19-2016, 11:09 PM
Giannis > anyone they've had since Ray Allen. Should've given him the years. Similar thing with Kevin Love only getting 4 in Minny because they were saving it for Rubio

More-Than-Most
09-19-2016, 11:35 PM
I am just so jealous... Is he even 20 yet? 20 years old and has 100 million dollars : (

FlashBolt
09-20-2016, 01:21 AM
I am just so jealous... Is he even 20 yet? 20 years old and has 100 million dollars : (

22 in a few months.. which is crazy money. Hope it doesn't steer him towards the wrong direction. He has an opportunity to get two max contracts after this contract is over.. Easily looking at $300-400 million career earnings.

McAllen Tx
09-20-2016, 05:36 AM
This signing, just like McCollums, has me wondering why now? They both would've been RFAs so there was no worries about another team stealing them.

What if either player has a serious injury this season? Too much of a risk IMO to only save $6 million over the 4 years.

Great signing, definately worth it but just think its an unnecessary risk signing him right now.

HandsOnTheWheel
09-20-2016, 12:58 PM
^Still has to play out the length of the contract for 100M..


22 in a few months.. which is crazy money. Hope it doesn't steer him towards the wrong direction. He has an opportunity to get two max contracts after this contract is over.. Easily looking at $300-400 million career earnings.

Agreed, especially if the cap balloons again.

HandsOnTheWheel
09-20-2016, 01:06 PM
The agent probably has it in mind that he can get Conley-esque money being that he's playing for a small market in Milwaukee. By 2020-21, he could very well be getting 40M per depending on how he fulfills his potential as well as how the league increases the cap.

valade16
09-20-2016, 01:33 PM
This signing, just like McCollums, has me wondering why now? They both would've been RFAs so there was no worries about another team stealing them.

What if either player has a serious injury this season? Too much of a risk IMO to only save $6 million over the 4 years.

Great signing, definately worth it but just think its an unnecessary risk signing him right now.

The cap is expected to rise by a fairly big margin again next year I believe, so had they waited and someone signed them to a max RFA contract next season they'd lost a lot more than $6 mil.

beasted86
09-20-2016, 07:20 PM
The cap is early projected to fall again 2 years from now. But so many fans just think the cap will keep going up indefinitely. We really have no clue what another lockout will do to salaries.

McAllen Tx
09-20-2016, 07:30 PM
The cap is expected to rise by a fairly big margin again next year I believe, so had they waited and someone signed them to a max RFA contract next season they'd lost a lot more than $6 mil.
The cap is projected to go up $8 million to $102 million. The extension The Freak signed is based off that projection.

McCollum also signed an extension a year early but he signed for max money starting at $23.8 million. All the same slotted players who signed max contracts this season (Whiteside, Parsons, Barnes etc etc...) all started at $22.1 million. The 1st year of The Freaks contract starts at $22.5. So if a team would have signed him to a max contract next summer it would've been for the same amount as this just signed contract.

The only way he could've gotten more is if this next CBA raises his slotted free agents from 25% of the max salary to either 27.5 or 30% of the salary cap. In that case it would bee a very smart move on Milwaukees part. If it stays at 25% then it was an unnecessary risk IMO.

HandsOnTheWheel
09-20-2016, 09:39 PM
The cap is early projected to fall again 2 years from now. But so many fans just think the cap will keep going up indefinitely. We really have no clue what another lockout will do to salaries.

Link?

kobe4thewinbang
09-20-2016, 11:47 PM
Giannis

My two cents:

Time for him to earn that salary. Bucks are in the eastern conference which I think everybody agrees is "stronger", but it's still the weaker conference. LeBron James carried some decent, but far from amazing Cavaliers teams into the playoffs and he did a bit of everything like people say Giannis can do. Coach Kidd and the front office must think it's likely he starts producing more rather than taper off and underwhelm. People are wondering why 4 years instead of 5, maybe it's for leverage later on, or maybe Bucks FO isn't quite sold on him just yet. Bear in mind they went big for Monroe and can't even find a trade for him. In closing, the "Greek Freek" needs to start a Cavs/LeBron or Warriors/Curry type of resurgence in Milwaukee. Reaching the playoffs is the minimum he's got to do. I'm not saying he's LeBron, but he's got to start making waves if he's really this terrific prodigy/point forward sensation.

tredigs
09-21-2016, 11:46 AM
Giannis

My two cents:

Time for him to earn that salary. Bucks are in the eastern conference which I think everybody agrees is "stronger", but it's still the weaker conference. LeBron James carried some decent, but far from amazing Cavaliers teams into the playoffs and he did a bit of everything like people say Giannis can do. Coach Kidd and the front office must think it's likely he starts producing more rather than taper off and underwhelm. People are wondering why 4 years instead of 5, maybe it's for leverage later on, or maybe Bucks FO isn't quite sold on him just yet. Bear in mind they went big for Monroe and can't even find a trade for him. In closing, the "Greek Freek" needs to start a Cavs/LeBron or Warriors/Curry type of resurgence in Milwaukee. Reaching the playoffs is the minimum he's got to do. I'm not saying he's LeBron, but he's got to start making waves if he's really this terrific prodigy/point forward sensation.

Lol he could be FAR worse than a legend-level/MVP player and still easily earn every penny on this contract and then some. He has already far surpassed his draft-day expectations (A mid 1st round pick in a draft whose top 5 were Anthony Bennett, Oladipo, Otto Porter, Cody Zeller and Alex Len. Worst top-5 ever?). The Freak has a lot of game and more untapped potential, but he needs to focus on improving his shot. I'm not sure people realize how rim-centric his game is. He's amazing at the rim and using his length/athleticism, but scoring wise he's a zero everywhere else. Unless that improves (which is very hard to improve), it puts a significant cap on his ceiling as a player.

kobe4thewinbang
09-21-2016, 04:49 PM
You lost me when you said he could earn that money without leading the Bucks to any legit success. Dude's making 20+ million and if he can't average at least 20/12/10 and get deep in the playoffs, I'd want my money back. Sure, these owners might rake in more dough just because of the name and interest, but basketball is about winning. I'd rather give a max deal to Paul George, but honestly, neither one's done enough to earn a max deal. Getting that money should be contingent on future success/stipulations. If Pacers or Bucks ain't contending with Cavaliers/Raptors soon, it wasn't worth it. Empty stats is empty, to anyone but rich owners.

Bruno
09-21-2016, 04:58 PM
Lol he could be FAR worse than a legend-level/MVP player and still easily earn every penny on this contract and then some. He has already far surpassed his draft-day expectations (A mid 1st round pick in a draft whose top 5 were Anthony Bennett, Oladipo, Otto Porter, Cody Zeller and Alex Len. Worst top-5 ever?). The Freak has a lot of game and more untapped potential, but he needs to focus on improving his shot. I'm not sure people realize how rim-centric his game is. He's amazing at the rim and using his length/athleticism, but scoring wise he's a zero everywhere else. Unless that improves (which is very hard to improve), it puts a significant cap on his ceiling as a player.

post all-star break numbers: 18.8 points, 8.6 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 steals on a TS% of .56.

according to BBRs player finder, there hasn't been a single player in NBA history to put up those averages over the course of a whole season. he hasn't either, but the writing is on the wall. I'm quite bullish, I expect him to be one of the ten or so players who walks away with a MVP award share this season. I think their Westgate 41.5 u/o is an obvious bet.

Bruno
09-21-2016, 05:00 PM
You lost me when you said he could earn that money without leading the Bucks to any legit success. Dude's making 20+ million and if he can't average at least 20/12/10 and get deep in the playoffs, I'd want my money back. Sure, these owners might rake in more dough just because of the name and interest, but basketball is about winning. I'd rather give a max deal to Paul George, but honestly, neither one's done enough to earn a max deal. Getting that money should be contingent on future success/stipulations. If Pacers or Bucks ain't contending with Cavaliers/Raptors soon, it wasn't worth it. Empty stats is empty, to anyone but rich owners.

I don't know, times have changed. Mike Conley and DeMar Derozen just signed two of the biggest contracts in NBA history. Nobody has ever averaged your prerequisite, not even when teams averaged 120 possessions a game.

Bruno
09-21-2016, 05:07 PM
the bucks are pretty fortunate that he didn't insist on the full max or the 5th year. but it seems, thats just Giannis. guy came from nothing. Back when he was Giannis Adetokunbo, he casually declared that he will be a NBA player. He has that rare mix of humility, talent, vision, extreme physical gifts and malleability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaw0_zw9LGs

Bruno
09-21-2016, 05:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUznksmYx1g

Analysis of point Giannis by coach Mike and BBBD.

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 05:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUznksmYx1g

Analysis of point Giannis by coach Mike and BBBD.

People can call hype all they want. That video is both impressive and scary.

tredigs
09-21-2016, 05:59 PM
You lost me when you said he could earn that money without leading the Bucks to any legit success. Dude's making 20+ million and if he can't average at least 20/12/10 and get deep in the playoffs, I'd want my money back. Sure, these owners might rake in more dough just because of the name and interest, but basketball is about winning. I'd rather give a max deal to Paul George, but honestly, neither one's done enough to earn a max deal. Getting that money should be contingent on future success/stipulations. If Pacers or Bucks ain't contending with Cavaliers/Raptors soon, it wasn't worth it. Empty stats is empty, to anyone but rich owners.

What are you talking about man? It just seems to me that you don't have an understanding of the salary cap or his market value. There are now 30 players making 20 million+ a year, and that number will only go up by this time next year. Every GM who could would pay him that money. Harrison Barnes and Nic Batum make 23 million a year in this market dude. You have to disassociate from the sheer amount itself and focus on what players of his caliber command in the current climate. It's not even a max deal, and he did them a huge favor in agreeing to sign for what he did.

tredigs
09-21-2016, 06:12 PM
post all-star break numbers: 18.8 points, 8.6 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 steals on a TS% of .56.

according to BBRs player finder, there hasn't been a single player in NBA history to put up those averages over the course of a whole season. he hasn't either, but the writing is on the wall. I'm quite bullish, I expect him to be one of the ten or so players who walks away with a MVP award share this season. I think their Westgate 41.5 u/o is an obvious bet.

I'm a fan of the Freak and there is clearly a lot that he does well, but it's just a fact that he would be considerably more deadly if he had any semblance of a shot. Similar to if Kevin Durant did not have a shot. In the 2 months with Westbrook out back in 2014 when he played point-forward KD dropped 35/8/6 on 54/40/88. Very similar talents in a lot of respects, and the Freak should be awesome, but KD's shooting ability is what puts him in another stratosphere than what we could ever hope to expect from Giannis. Here's his shot-chart: http://nbasavant.com/player.php?player_id=203507

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 06:42 PM
I'm a fan of the Freak and there is clearly a lot that he does well, but it's just a fact that he would be considerably more deadly if he had any semblance of a shot. Similar to if Kevin Durant did not have a shot. In the 2 months with Westbrook out back in 2014 when he played point-forward KD dropped 35/8/6 on 54/40/88. Very similar talents in a lot of respects, and the Freak should be awesome, but KD's shooting ability is what puts him in another stratosphere than what we could ever hope to expect from Giannis. Here's his shot-chart: http://nbasavant.com/player.php?player_id=203507

Giannis is more athletic and explosive than KD ever was. If he develops a KD type shot, then he would be a better player than KD. Of course, I don't think he'll ever develop such a consistent shot so he'll have to make up for it using other skillsets.

tredigs
09-21-2016, 06:49 PM
Giannis is more athletic and explosive than KD ever was. If he develops a KD type shot, then he would be a better player than KD. Of course, I don't think he'll ever develop such a consistent shot so he'll have to make up for it using other skillsets.

The difference in explosiveness and athleticim between the two is not even in the same ballpark as is the difference in their shooting ability, nor is it nearly important enough to compare to having Durant's shot (which is not attainable at this point in his career, which is why I said he has a lower ceiling than we might hope of him). I don't think Durant would see a significant uptick in his game if he had Giannis' athleticism (KD also has Giannis beat athletically in certain regards, specifically body-control in his ability to get off tough shots while off balance), while if Giannis had KD's shot he would be a top player in the NBA.

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 07:02 PM
The difference in explosiveness and athleticim between the two is not even in the same ballpark as is the difference in their shooting ability, nor is it nearly important enough to compare to having Durant's shot (which is not attainable at this point in his career, which is why I said he has a lower ceiling than we might hope of him). I don't think Durant would see a significant uptick in his game if he had Giannis' athleticism (KD also has Giannis beat athletically in certain regards, specifically body-control in his ability to get off tough shots while off balance), while if Giannis had KD's shot he would be a top player in the NBA.

Agreed. Curious to see where Ingram goes from here because he's another guy as well.

kobe4thewinbang
09-21-2016, 07:55 PM
What are you talking about man? It just seems to me that you don't have an understanding of the salary cap or his market value. There are now 30 players making 20 million+ a year, and that number will only go up by this time next year. Every GM who could would pay him that money. Harrison Barnes and Nic Batum make 23 million a year in this market dude. You have to disassociate from the sheer amount itself and focus on what players of his caliber command in the current climate. It's not even a max deal, and he did them a huge favor in agreeing to sign for what he did.I agree, him taking a bit less was a gesture of good faith and selflessness. I know the salary cap went nuts, but I'm still gonna cross my arms and see what he produces on the court. DeRozan and George (should he sign the deal from Indy) will probably have more success next season and 'lead' their team better. Not sure about Batum or Barnes. I know guys like Bazemore and Evan Turner went to the bank grinning, but I'm saying it's not out of the question that Giannis becomes another one of them rather than this big hero he *could* become. I hope he does, but I ain't gonna say he's earned it yet and my criteria for him 'earning' it is definitely more than the revenue he brings in or what you see as him doing his part. Dude's gotta bring it.

kobe4thewinbang
09-21-2016, 07:57 PM
I don't know, times have changed. Mike Conley and DeMar Derozen just signed two of the biggest contracts in NBA history. Nobody has ever averaged your prerequisite, not even when teams averaged 120 possessions a game.Nobody's ever had 20/12/10?

Bruno
09-21-2016, 09:49 PM
Nobody's ever had 20/12/10?

Oscar in '62. Cracked the 12 rebound a game mark, didn't think he did.

Magics highest rebounding mark was 9.6, but he also averaged less than 10 rpg that season.

Bruno
09-21-2016, 09:50 PM
Middleton injury is huge.

Chronz
09-21-2016, 10:20 PM
Middleton injury is huge.
He's Shane Battier if Shane Battier had 1v1 skills. I guess we find out what Giannis has when fed to the Wolves cuz hes without the teams best player from here on out. Middleton has improved so much and hes doing it while taking a back seat to flawed players, hes the 1 guy you could throw into any lineup and expect it to succeed, its why he led the team in Minutes.

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 11:07 PM
He's Shane Battier if Shane Battier had 1v1 skills. I guess we find out what Giannis has when fed to the Wolves cuz hes without the teams best player from here on out. Middleton has improved so much and hes doing it while taking a back seat to flawed players, hes the 1 guy you could throw into any lineup and expect it to succeed, its why he led the team in Minutes.

KM is not the best player on the Bucks and he'll be the first to tell you that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ROY 2 MVP Braun
09-22-2016, 08:36 AM
KM is not the best player on the Bucks and he'll be the first to tell you that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

he may not be the best player but outt of anyone getting a injry that will hurt the team most its losing him

Chronz
09-22-2016, 09:54 AM
KM is not the best player on the Bucks and he'll be the first to tell you that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hes easily the best player on the Bucks and part of the reason hes their best is because of his humility. Look at a guy like Giannis who explodes because he was finally allowed to dominate the ball, Middleton can play both with and without the ball. Best defender, best shooter and could definitely do more if his teammates weren't so inept without the ball that he has to take a backseat. Imagine you're the best shooter on the team, definitely its best 1v1 scorer but you aren't allowed to handle the rock because it means you have bricklayers like Giannis and co for outlet options. You'll see how important KM is next year.

Bruno
09-22-2016, 04:32 PM
I'm a fan of the Freak and there is clearly a lot that he does well, but it's just a fact that he would be considerably more deadly if he had any semblance of a shot. Similar to if Kevin Durant did not have a shot. In the 2 months with Westbrook out back in 2014 when he played point-forward KD dropped 35/8/6 on 54/40/88. Very similar talents in a lot of respects, and the Freak should be awesome, but KD's shooting ability is what puts him in another stratosphere than what we could ever hope to expect from Giannis. Here's his shot-chart: http://nbasavant.com/player.php?player_id=203507
Thanks for the link. He's pretty dominant in the restricted area.

LBJ has shot 28% from three in the post-season since returning to the Cavs, and he's widely accepted as the best player. If the team is built properly, a non-shooter can dominant the league. Giannis has a flaw in the sense that he hasn't shot well from three over a full 82 game season yet, but it doesn't change the fact that he dominates aspects of the game in a way that most of the league can not.

And I'd remind everybody that the three point shooting saw a major uptick in attempts and accuracy after the all-star break. Which is interesting.

I don't expect KD shooting but the kid has better vision and has a better intuition when it comes to keeping aggressive smaller guards on his hip. KD did a pretty good job as point forward but Giannis is a natural in the role. Not saying he's a better overall player or ever can be, just that he has a higher ceiling as a distributing forward.



He's Shane Battier if Shane Battier had 1v1 skills.
I can get behind that.


I guess we find out what Giannis has when fed to the Wolves cuz hes without the teams best player from here on out. But we could say that about any great player with a flaw, who's team is built around hiding that flaw. Would we say "now we get to see the real LeBron James" two days after all his best floor spreaders go down with knee injuries? Probably not, but we'd note the drop off in production that would come with defensives packing the paint. It wouldn't be a definition of what the player is, more so of what he can accomplish within a given dynamic. Things just got a lot harder for the Bucks, it will reflect build and circumstance more than anything, but naturally it's going to be interesting to see what Giannis does without Middletons floor spreading and intelligence.


Middleton has improved so much and hes doing it while taking a back seat to flawed players, hes the 1 guy you could throw into any lineup and expect it to succeed, its why he led the team in Minutes.
In which way is he taking a back seat? Middleton lead the Bucks in FGA, minutes and USG%.

I understand where you're going with this. Because of the build, Middleton is the most intricate to the five man dynamic. But thats more related to the fact that they have had non shooters at the PG and other F position, and less related to Middleton being a better or more talented player than Giannis. Middleton is great, but he doesn't bend defenses to his well or change the gravitational pull of the defense in the way that Giannis can because of his ability to finish at a very high rate near the basket. you're making note of flawed team building.

FlashBolt
09-23-2016, 12:06 AM
Thanks for the link. He's pretty dominant in the restricted area.

LBJ has shot 28% from three in the post-season since returning to the Cavs, and he's widely accepted as the best player. If the team is built properly, a non-shooter can dominant the league. Giannis has a flaw in the sense that he hasn't shot well from three over a full 82 game season yet, but it doesn't change the fact that he dominates aspects of the game in a way that most of the league can not.

And I'd remind everybody that the three point shooting saw a major uptick in attempts and accuracy after the all-star break. Which is interesting.

I don't expect KD shooting but the kid has better vision and has a better intuition when it comes to keeping aggressive smaller guards on his hip. KD did a pretty good job as point forward but Giannis is a natural in the role. Not saying he's a better overall player or ever can be, just that he has a higher ceiling as a distributing forward.



I can get behind that.

But we could say that about any great player with a flaw, who's team is built around hiding that flaw. Would we say "now we get to see the real LeBron James" two days after all his best floor spreaders go down with knee injuries? Probably not, but we'd note the drop off in production that would come with defensives packing the paint. It wouldn't be a definition of what the player is, more so of what he can accomplish within a given dynamic. Things just got a lot harder for the Bucks, it will reflect build and circumstance more than anything, but naturally it's going to be interesting to see what Giannis does without Middletons floor spreading and intelligence.


In which way is he taking a back seat? Middleton lead the Bucks in FGA, minutes and USG%.

I understand where you're going with this. Because of the build, Middleton is the most intricate to the five man dynamic. But thats more related to the fact that they have had non shooters at the PG and other F position, and less related to Middleton being a better or more talented player than Giannis. Middleton is great, but he doesn't bend defenses to his well or change the gravitational pull of the defense in the way that Giannis can because of his ability to finish at a very high rate near the basket. you're making note of flawed team building.

I hate having to explain that because it's pretty obvious that Giannis has the capability of doing what Middleton can't. Middleton is a very good player but he's not going to lead the Bucks. Bucks go as far as Giannis takes them.

Chronz
09-23-2016, 02:55 AM
But we could say that about any great player with a flaw, who's team is built around hiding that flaw. Would we say "now we get to see the real LeBron James" two days after all his best floor spreaders go down with knee injuries? Probably not, but we'd note the drop off in production that would come with defensives packing the paint. It wouldn't be a definition of what the player is, more so of what he can accomplish within a given dynamic. Things just got a lot harder for the Bucks, it will reflect build and circumstance more than anything, but naturally it's going to be interesting to see what Giannis does without Middletons floor spreading and intelligence.

This would be more like Wade losing LeBron or vice versa if you want to imagine him as Bron lite but what we would expect of the star is exactly what they did throughout their tenure. For a few years there, Wade essentially returned to pre-Bron form with a +30 PER and if Bron weren't there full time, I would fully expect him to up his individual output, so long as he stayed healthy of course. The team results are another thing entirely, Giannis taking the leap is just one factor now. Let me put it this way, its not like losing Middleton exonerates any and all loss of respectable efficacy given his usage. We'll see what hes made of because this would be the biggest test of all, a test Bron-Wade have already passed. He doesn't need to get on their level but if hes as good as PSD projected, he better have a huge year.


In which way is he taking a back seat? Middleton lead the Bucks in FGA, minutes and USG%.

In the sense that hes sacrifices for the team defensively, offensively hes proficient in multiple areas but is relegated into a smaller role/part time spot shooter in order to maximize 2 inferior offensive players, like hes their best 1v1 scorer but he handles the ball less than both Giannis and MCW. He leads the team in minutes because hes their most indispensable player who makes everyone better and can thrive with ANYONE.


I understand where you're going with this. Because of the build, Middleton is the most intricate to the five man dynamic. But thats more related to the fact that they have had non shooters at the PG and other F position, and less related to Middleton being a better or more talented player than Giannis. Middleton is great, but he doesn't bend defenses to his well or change the gravitational pull of the defense in the way that Giannis can because of his ability to finish at a very high rate near the basket. you're making note of flawed team building.

Yeah and Giannis is part of that flawed construct, your excuse ignores the point that Middleton can play with ANYONE whereas players who cant shoot but dominate the ball have a significantly harder time meshing with players of similar skill. Like a team full of Middletons would be better than a team full of Giannis's IMO, I do know I could plug Middleton into just about any situation and expect him to be the glue hes always been whereas you have to be careful with who you play with GA as hes likely to stunt the production of certain players. If hes putting up triple doubles with great efficiency its all for the best, but you still cant deny the greatness of Middleton. This season will truly show us his value.

Personally, its hard for me to envision many builds where Middleton sacrifices this much, like if he plays in Cleveland with more ball dominant players, at least hes the recipient of far better looks. On other flawed teams maybe he gets to handle the ball more than ****ing MCW ffs, maybe not. I agree the shooters in Milwaukee will get a bump like Mayo did simply from it being a starved resource, but the trend continues when you look at those same shooters and see that the team is still more effective with Middleton than anyone else.

Giannis94
09-23-2016, 11:10 AM
Most underrated player in the NBA. Cant believe he is so underpaid.

tredigs
09-23-2016, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the link. He's pretty dominant in the restricted area.

LBJ has shot 28% from three in the post-season since returning to the Cavs, and he's widely accepted as the best player. If the team is built properly, a non-shooter can dominant the league. Giannis has a flaw in the sense that he hasn't shot well from three over a full 82 game season yet, but it doesn't change the fact that he dominates aspects of the game in a way that most of the league can not.

And I'd remind everybody that the three point shooting saw a major uptick in attempts and accuracy after the all-star break. Which is interesting.

I don't expect KD shooting but the kid has better vision and has a better intuition when it comes to keeping aggressive smaller guards on his hip. KD did a pretty good job as point forward but Giannis is a natural in the role. Not saying he's a better overall player or ever can be, just that he has a higher ceiling as a distributing forward.



You're probably stretching a bit here. Saying he had a "major uptick in attempts and accuracy post ASB, which is interesting". I mean he made a total of 12 threes post ASB on an abysmal 28.6% Not much to work with there. The more stark contrast of his shooting post ASB was that his FT shooting dropped from a reasonable 75% to 67%. Range was something 'Bron had to work on early on, but it's apples to oranges as a comparison between the two. At Giannis' age he was already taking ~3x the attempts and hitting them in the low 30's. Also, their instincts are on a different level. When 'Bron is not shooting well it is a huge hamper on his game and his percentages as a whole, but he could always tap into different aspects of his game that were other-worldly.

I'm not saying Giannis can't be a great player, and frankly I expect him to be, but rather that he is just very likely to never be MVP caliber due to his lack of a shot. And that's going to show up more so this season without his floor spacer and release-valve Middleton running next to him. They're also likely to lose a lot of games in the early going, so we'll see how he handles that pressure as the newly minted franchise man over in Milwaukee.

Bruno
09-23-2016, 05:33 PM
You're probably stretching a bit here. Saying he had a "major uptick in attempts and accuracy post ASB, which is interesting". I mean he made a total of 12 threes post ASB on an abysmal 28.6% Not much to work with there. The more stark contrast of his shooting post ASB was that his FT shooting dropped from a reasonable 75% to 67%. Range was something 'Bron had to work on early on, but it's apples to oranges as a comparison between the two. At Giannis' age he was already taking ~3x the attempts and hitting them in the low 30's. Also, their instincts are on a different level. When 'Bron is not shooting well it is a huge hamper on his game and his percentages as a whole, but he could always tap into different aspects of his game that were other-worldly.
You're right, i meant to say over the final 12 games. 2.7 attempts on 37.5%. Which was interesting to me because over the first 70 games he only attempted 1.1 on 20%. I'm less interested with the 37.5% over the last 12 games because its mostly from a single game when he shot 4/5 from three, and more interested in the attempts. I just thought it displayed a different philosophy for Giannis from Kidd, and while I don't expect good three point shooting I expect improvements based on the philosophy. You can stand five feet back on a guy who shoots 20%, but you have to close out on a guy who even flirts with 33%. LeBron of course was a drastic comparison on my part, I was more trying to make a general point that team build can impact which parts of players skill sets can thrive.


I'm not saying Giannis can't be a great player, and frankly I expect him to be, but rather that he is just very likely to never be MVP caliber due to his lack of a shot. And that's going to show up more so this season without his floor spacer and release-valve Middleton running next to him. They're also likely to lose a lot of games in the early going, so we'll see how he handles that pressure as the newly minted franchise man over in Milwaukee.

right. I mean its interesting that Delly could see major minutes for the Bucks. If he can be a solid 40% three point shooter in a derek fisheresque role it could help mitigate the Middleton injury from a spacing perspective. Jabari is going to pick up on some of that Middleton USG%. If he can develop into a quality third year player with the added opportunity and Middleton comes back strong, it could end up paying dividends the year after this season. I'm not necessarily bullish on a Giannis for MVP in his career, but I'd bet on the idea of him walking away with some award shares by the time his career is over.

Chronz
09-23-2016, 05:52 PM
Most underrated player in the NBA. Cant believe he is so underpaid.

Isn't this an awkward position? You want the world to recognize his importance but if his team numbers are true, it means your squad is in for another horrid year..... unless GA BLOWS up Tmac style. Not likely but some are hopeful and even then it might not be enough to make the playoffs but if you compete, its a very good sign moving forward IMO.

What do you realistically expect at this point? I already took the under on you guys, no offense of course.

Bruno
09-23-2016, 06:08 PM
This would be more like Wade losing LeBron or vice versa if you want to imagine him as Bron lite but what we would expect of the star is exactly what they did throughout their tenure. For a few years there, Wade essentially returned to pre-Bron form with a +30 PER and if Bron weren't there full time, I would fully expect him to up his individual output, so long as he stayed healthy of course. The team results are another thing entirely, Giannis taking the leap is just one factor now. Let me put it this way, its not like losing Middleton exonerates any and all loss of respectable efficacy given his usage. We'll see what hes made of because this would be the biggest test of all, a test Bron-Wade have already passed. He doesn't need to get on their level but if hes as good as PSD projected, he better have a huge year.
right. so I guess it's just up to the leap because he doesn't have a long enough track record for us to know what he could look like before and after.

if he averages his post asg averages for the season would you consider that to be a huge year?



In the sense that hes sacrifices for the team defensively,
Maybe I'm too deep into the Last Season atm, but you usually don't hear a guy mention defensive when the idea of sacrifice is brought up. haha, but no I buy this because of the effort it takes to guard the perimeter over switches today.


offensively hes proficient in multiple areas but is relegated into a smaller role/part time spot shooter in order to maximize 2 inferior offensive players, like hes their best 1v1 scorer but he handles the ball less than both Giannis and MCW.
MCW needs to get traded. Middleton should be the secondary ball handler and Parker should play off ball.

Middleton also gets a lot of quality open looks in those corners and wings. Unless Middleton has the ability to be the primary ball handler and strike threes off the dribble at a high percentage, I'd suggest that the percentages that we praise are related to his role. How sure are we that Middletons dominance as a three point shooter wasn't related to playing off the ball? In that sense the build that damns him also made him. Middleton shoots 31% on 1.7 attempt per game as a rookie with Detroit, and 32% over three seasons at Texas A&M, including 20% in his junior season coming into the draft. Since joining the Bucks he's been a 40% three point shooter.

A lot of that is natural development, but I think this route was better for a player like Middleton. I'm not sure he ever becomes this type of player if he's expected to dominate the ball. I'm not saying you'd like to have him dominate the ball, because you praise his ability to fit. I understand you'd like to see a little more emphasis on allowing his strengths to be of emphasis, but to be the 'off ball' player who also leads the team in minutes, USG and FGA shows that he's still very much included and of central importance. Look at Nic Batum, he can't make the same claim, he was 5th in USG% for the Hornets. Is he marginalized? So what matters in defining what makes a player marginalized? USG, FGA, and minutes or the more intricate nature of if the players skill set is being fully implemented. Maybe Nic Batum is allowed to be more Nic Batum in how he was used (despite lower USG%) than Middleton was allowed to be as Middleton as possible, despite the USG. I could see that too, I could understand that Middleton doesn't get to play as close to his essence as Batum does even though the hard numbers suggest otherwise.


He leads the team in minutes because hes their most indispensable player who makes everyone better and can thrive with ANYONE.[QUOTE]
All things being equal, what qualities make for the more valuable player? Player A who can bend defenses and is naturally built around, or a player B who can fit into any system and thrive in any circumstance, who doesn't need to be built around to contribute. Its an interesting discussion and I definitely see where you're coming from.


[QUOTE]Yeah and Giannis is part of that flawed construct, your excuse ignores the point that Middleton can play with ANYONE whereas players who cant shoot but dominate the ball have a significantly harder time meshing with players of similar skill. Like a team full of Middletons would be better than a team full of Giannis's IMO, I do know I could plug Middleton into just about any situation and expect him to be the glue hes always been whereas you have to be careful with who you play with GA as hes likely to stunt the production of certain players. If hes putting up triple doubles with great efficiency its all for the best, but you still cant deny the greatness of Middleton. This season will truly show us his value.
haha, I got ya. I think it will. I don't I think Middleton is a top 35 player and one of the best SGs in the league.


Personally, its hard for me to envision many builds where Middleton sacrifices this much, like if he plays in Cleveland with more ball dominant players, at least hes the recipient of far better looks. On other flawed teams maybe he gets to handle the ball more than ****ing MCW ffs, maybe not. I agree the shooters in Milwaukee will get a bump like Mayo did simply from it being a starved resource, but the trend continues when you look at those same shooters and see that the team is still more effective with Middleton than anyone else.

That's interesting. I mean what do you think it would look like if Middleton had Batums role in Charlotte? I don't mean to downplay how good Middleton is, I've been following the Bucks for years, I added him off the wire in a legacy league two years ago haha. Ive been on board.

I know it'd be impossible to build but putting ace shooters at the PG and C for this Bucks team with a healthy Middleton would be dangerous. You some how get one of those Kristaps, Myles Turner type unicorns and it forgives the non shooting from the forward position. I'm really high on the Delly signing.

Bruno
09-23-2016, 06:13 PM
Isn't this an awkward position? You want the world to recognize his importance but if his team numbers are true, it means your squad is in for another horrid year..... unless GA BLOWS up Tmac style. Not likely but some are hopeful and even then it might not be enough to make the playoffs but if you compete, its a very good sign moving forward IMO.

What do you realistically expect at this point? I already took the under on you guys, no offense of course.

you took the under for 39.5 before the injury?

tredigs
09-23-2016, 09:08 PM
Where are you guys booking the bets with current lines? I can't find anywhere online and the William-Hill sportsbook I use for live betting only has championship odds available.

5ass
09-23-2016, 10:04 PM
you took the under for 39.5 before the injury?

Why not? Why do you think they would've won over 40? There are like 10 teams in the east that could easily be better than them.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-28-2016, 02:27 PM
Giannis grew over the summer. He mentioned on media day he's 6'11.5" now, with shoes 7' and in high heels 7'2". Jokingly about the heels.

Bruno
09-28-2016, 03:14 PM
Why not? Why do you think they would've won over 40? There are like 10 teams in the east that could easily be better than them.

with a healthy Middleton? totally, they could have coasted to 40 wins.