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FlashBolt
09-15-2016, 02:37 PM
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/09/12/nba-top-100-player-rankings

Will update with the actual list if I can find one.

100. Devin Booker, SG, Suns
99. Aaron Gordon, PF, Magic
98. Brandon Knight, PG, Suns
97. Manu Ginobili, SG, Spurs
96. J.R. Smith, SG, Cavliers
95. Evan Fournier, SG, Magic
94. Cody Zeller, PF, Hornets
93. Mason Plumlee, C, Trail Blazers
92. Wesley Matthews, SG, Mavericks
91. Bismack Biyombo, C, Magic
90. Kent Bazemore, SF, Hawks
89. Ryan Anderson, PF, Rockets
88. Enes Kanter, C, Thunder
87. Kenneth Faried, PF, Nuggets
86. Amir Johnson, PF, Celtics
85. Rodney Hood, SF, Jazz
84. Nerlens Noel, PF, 76ers
83. Andrew Bogut, C, Mavericks
82. Robin Lopez, C, Bulls
81. Trevor Ariza, SF, Rockets
80. Rudy Gay, SF, Kings
79. Clint Capela, C, Rockets
78. Nikola Jokic, C, Nuggets
77. Tobias Harris, PF, Pistons
76. Ian Mahinmi, C, Wizards
75. Nikola Vucevic, C, Magic
74. Victor Oladipo, SG, Thunder
73. DeMarre Carroll, SF, Raptors
72. Avery Bradley, SG, Celtics
71. Ricky Rubio, PG, Timberwolves
70. Kyle Korver, SG, Hawks
69. Danny Green, SG, Spurs
68. Kristaps Porzingis, PF, Knicks
67. Andrew Wiggins, SF, Timberwolves
66. Thaddeus Young, PF, Pacers
65. Marvin Williams, PF, Hornets
64. Zach Randolph, PF, Grizzlies
63. Greg Monroe, PF, Bucks
62. Jonas Valanciunas, C, Raptors
61. Goran Dragic, PG, Heat
60. Luol Deng, PF, Lakers
59. J.J. Redick, SG, Clippers
58. Bradley Beal, SG, Wizards
57. Jeff Teague, PG, Pacers
56. George Hill, PG, Jazz
55. Marcin Gortat, C, Wizards
54. Reggie Jackson, PG, Pistons
53. Jae Crowder, SF, Celtics
52. Tristan Thompson, PF, Cavaliers
51. Chandler Parsons, SF, Grizzlies
50. C.J. McCollum, SG, Trail Blazers
49. Eric Bledsoe, PG, Suns
48. Giannis Antetokounmpo, SF, Bucks
47. Danilo Gallinari, SF, Nuggets
46. DeMar DeRozan, SG, Raptors
45. Isaiah Thomas, PG, Celtics
44. Andre Iguodala, SF, Warriors
43. Nicolas Batum, SF, Hornets
42. Serge Ibaka, PF, Magic
41. Pau Gasol, C, Spurs
40. Steven Adams, C, Thunder
39. Khris Middleton, SF, Bucks
38. Brook Lopez, C, Nets
37. Chris Bosh, PF, Heat
36. Kemba Walker, PG, Hornets
35. Hassan Whiteside, C, Heat
34. Dwight Howard, C, Hawks
33. Rudy Gobert, C, Jazz
32. Dwyane Wade, SG, Bulls
31. Dirk Nowitzki, PF, Mavericks
30. Kevin Love
29. Andre Drummond
28. Derrick Favors
27. Gordon Hayward
26. Mike Conley
25. Kyrie Irving
24. Carmelo Anthony
23. Karl-Anthony Towns
22. Marc Gasol
21. Damian Lillard
20. DeAndre Jordan
19. Klay Thompson
18. Al Horford
17. John Wall
16. Jimmy Butler
15. Paul Millsap
14. Kyle Lowry
13. Draymond Green
12. DeMarcus Cousins
11. LaMarcus Aldridge
10. Blake Griffin
9. Paul George
8. Anthony Davis
7. James Harden
6. Kahwi Leonard
5. Russel Westbrook
4. Chris Paul
3. Stephen Curry
2. Kevin Durant
1. LeBron James

shep33
09-15-2016, 03:48 PM
I think this list sucks

Vee-Rex
09-15-2016, 04:06 PM
To compare both lists:

PSD--------------------SPORTS ILLUSTRATED
1. LeBron James ---------------1. LeBron James
2. Stephen Curry ---------------2. Kevin Durant
3. Kevin Durant ---------------3. Stephen Curry
4. Russell Westbrook -----------4. Chris Paul
5. Kawhi Leonard ---------------5. Russell Westbrook
6. Chris Paul ---------------6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Anthony Davis ---------------7. James Harden
8. Paul George ---------------8. Anthony Davis
9. James Harden ---------------9. Paul George
10. Draymond Green ---------------10. Blake Griffin
11. DeMarcus Cousins ---------------11. LaMarcus Aldridge
12. Blake Griffin ---------------12. DeMarcus Cousins
13. Jimmy Butler ---------------13. Draymond Green
14. Klay Thompson ---------------14. Kyle Lowry
15. Damian Lillard ---------------15. Paul Millsap
16. LaMarcus Aldridge ---------------16. Jimmy Butler
17. Kyrie Irving ---------------17. John Wall
18. Carmelo Anthony ---------------18. Al Horford
19. Kyle Lowry ---------------19. Klay Thompson
20. John Wall ---------------20. Deandre Jordan
21. Karl-Anthony Towns ---------------21. Damian Lillard
22. Paul Millsap ---------------22. Marc Gasol
23. Marc Gasol ---------------23. Karl-Anthony Towns
24. Al Horford ---------------24. Carmelo Anthony
25. Dwyane Wade ---------------25. Kyrie Irving
26. Kevin Love ---------------26. Mike Conley
27. Giannis Antetokounmpo ---------------27. Gordon Hayward
28. Deandre Jordan ---------------28. Derrick Favors
29. Gordon Hayward ---------------29. Andre Drummond
30. DeMar Derozan/Isaiah Thomas ---------------30. Kevin Love

----------------------------------------- 32. Dwyane Wade
---------------------------------------- 45. Isaiah Thomas
-------------------------------------46. DeMar Derozan
-------------------------------------48. Giannis Antetokounmpo

Vee-Rex
09-15-2016, 04:11 PM
Biggest differences were (besides the un-ranking of Favors/Drummond/Conley):

1. Giannis is underrated on SI with a -21 diff
2. Derozan is underrated on SI with a -16 diff
3. Isaiah Thomas is underrated on SI with a -15 diff
4. Kyrie irving is underrated on SI with a -8 diff
5. Deandre Jordan is overrated on SI with a -8 diff

Whether SI underrated/overrated their players vs. PSD overrated/underrated is obviously debatable.

FlashBolt
09-15-2016, 04:15 PM
How did Giannis fall to 48? Just noticed that... Pretty awful list orchestrated by SI. Kyrie at 25 is pretty shameful as well.

Vee-Rex
09-15-2016, 04:20 PM
How did Giannis fall to 48? Just noticed that... Pretty awful list orchestrated by SI. Kyrie at 25 is pretty shameful as well.

What makes the Giannis placement even worse is that SI was projecting this list for next year. How in the world would Giannis be 48th? Dude could potentially crack top 5 SF this coming year behind LBJ KD KL and PG.

Chronz
09-15-2016, 04:45 PM
I like theirs better thats for sure, even if I disagree with some of the placements.


What makes the Giannis placement even worse is that SI was projecting this list for next year. How in the world would Giannis be 48th? Dude could potentially crack top 5 SF this coming year behind LBJ KD KL and PG.

The flip side is how much worse we overrated Giannis despite us not being directed to project. It really was over kill, its one thing to buy into his hype (if you're the type) but we're suppose to go off what we KNOW. And what I know is that Giannis hasn't even been his teams best player much less top-30.

Vee-Rex
09-15-2016, 04:50 PM
I like theirs better thats for sure, even if I disagree with some of the placements.



The flip side is how much worse we overrated Giannis despite us not being directed to project. It really was over kill, its one thing to buy into his hype (if you're the type) but we're suppose to go off what we KNOW. And what I know is that Giannis hasn't even been his teams best player much less top-30.

If we flipped our Giannis with their Giannis that would be closer to how we were suppose to do our lists.

nycericanguy
09-15-2016, 04:53 PM
Projecting into 2017, KP wayyyy too low. Some real average players put ahead of him.

Deng
Marvin Williams,
Monroe
Gortat
Tristan
Iggy
Thad young
old Z-bo
George Hill

those guys gonna be better than KP next year? tons more debatable too.

meanwhile Gobert as almost a top 30 player is a reach.

Devin Booker also too low, there arent 99 players that are gonna be better than him next year.

Vee-Rex
09-15-2016, 05:00 PM
Here's Bleacher Report's projected top 100 for the 2016-17 season... should give everyone a few laughs (lol @ Blake Griffin):


This is the top 100:
1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors (PG)
2. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers (SF)
3. Kawhi Leonard, San Antonio Spurs (SF)
4. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City Thunder (PG)
5. Kevin Durant, Golden State Warriors (SF)
6. Draymond Green, Golden State Warriors (PF)
7. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors (PG)
8. Paul George, Indiana Pacers (SF)
9. Chris Paul, Los Angeles Clippers (PG)
10. Paul Millsap, Atlanta Hawks (PF)
11. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors (SG)
12. Anthony Davis, New Orleans Pelicans (PF)
13. James Harden, Houston Rockets (SG)
14. DeMarcus Cousins, Sacramento Kings (C)
15. LaMarcus Aldridge, San Antonio Spurs (PF)
16. Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers (PG)
17. John Wall, Washington Wizards (PG)
18. Karl-Anthony Towns, Minnesota Timberwolves (C)
19. DeAndre Jordan, Los Angeles Clippers (C)
20. Jimmy Butler, Chicago Bulls (SG)
21. Carmelo Anthony, New York Knicks (SF)
22. Kemba Walker, Charlotte Hornets (PG)
23. Dwyane Wade, Chicago Bulls (SG)
24. Andre Drummond, Detroit Pistons (C)
25. Nicolas Batum, Charlotte Hornets (SF)
27. Marc Gasol, Memphis Grizzlies (C)
28. Al Horford, Boston Celtics (C)
29. Hassan Whiteside, Miami Heat (C)
30. Giannis Antetokounmpo, Mil. Bucks (SF/PF)
31. Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers (PG)
32. Khris Middleton, Milwaukee Bucks (SF)
33. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks (PF)
34. Kevin Love, Cleveland Cavaliers (PF)
35. Chris Bosh, Miami Heat (PF)
36. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz (SF)
37. Isaiah Thomas, Boston Celtics (PG)
38. DeMar DeRozan, Toronto Raptors (SF)
39. Jae Crowder, Boston Celtics (SF)
40. Pau Gasol, San Antonio Spurs (C)
41. Reggie Jackson, Detroit Pistons (PG)
42. Blake Griffin, Los Angeles Clippers (PF)
43. Rudy Gobert, Utah Jazz (C)
44. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies (PG)
45. C.J. McCollum, Portland Trail Blazers (SG)
46. Brook Lopez, Brooklyn Nets (C)
47. Andrew Wiggins, Min. Timberwolves (SF)
48. Eric Bledsoe, Phoenix Suns (PG)
49. Rodney Hood, Utah Jazz (SG)
50. Ricky Rubio, Minnesota Timberwolves (PG)
51. Danilo Gallinari, Denver Nuggets (SF)
52. Victor Oladipo, OKC Thunder (SG)
53. Goran Dragic, Miami Heat (PG)
54. Ryan Anderson, Houston Rockets (PF)
55. Chandler Parsons, Memphis Grizzlies (SF)
56. Brandon Knight, Phoenix Suns (SG)
57. Tim Duncan, Retired (C)
58. Marvin Williams, Charlotte Hornets (PF)
59. George Hill, Utah Jazz (PG)
60. Jonas Valanciunas, Toronto Raptors (C)
61. Andrew Bogut, Dallas Mavericks (C)
62. Jrue Holiday, New Orleans Pelicans (PG)
63. Luol Deng, Los Angeles Lakers (SF)
64. Jeff Teague, Indiana Pacers (PG)
65. Tobias Harris, Detroit Pistons (SF)
66. Aaron Gordon, Orlando Magic (SF)
67. Marcus Morris, Detroit Pistons (SF)
68. Monta Ellis, Indiana Pacers (SG)
69. Rudy Gay, Sacramento Kings (SF)
70. Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets (C)
71. Robin Lopez, Chicago Bulls (C)
72. Evan Fournier, Orlando Magic (SG)
73. Dwight Howard, Atlanta Hawks (C)
74. Zach LaVine, Min. Timberwolves (PG/SG)
75. Bradley Beal, Washington Wizards (SG)
76. Greg Monroe, Milwaukee Bucks (C)
77. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs (PG)
78. Marcin Gortat, Washington Wizards (C)
79. Joe Johnson, Utah Jazz (SF)
80. Zach Randolph, Memphis Grizzlies (CB)
81. Otto Porter, Washington Wizards (SF)
82. Steven Adams, Oklahoma City Thunder (C)
83. Kristaps Porzingis, New York Knicks (PF/C)
84. Evan Turner, Portland Trail Blazers (SF)
85. J.J. Redick, Los Angeles Clippers (SG)
86. Avery Bradley, Boston Celtics (SG)
87. Serge Ibaka, Orlando Magic (PF)
88. Nikola Vucevic, Orlando Magic (C)
89. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, D. Pistons (SG)
90. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs (SG)
91. Gorgui Dieng, Min. Timberwolves (PF/C)
92. Patrick Beverley, Houston Rockets (PG)
93. Harrison Barnes, Dallas Mavericks (SF)
94. Nerlens Noel, Philadelphia 76ers (PF/C)
95. Andre Iguodala, G.S. Warriors (SF)
96. Kent Bazemore, Atlanta Hawks (SF)
97. Tristan Thompson, Cle. Cavaliers (PF)
98. Will Barton, Denver Nuggets (SG)
99. J.R. Smith, Free Agent (SG)
100. Thaddeus Young, Indiana Pacers (PF)

Bruno
09-15-2016, 05:07 PM
The flip side is how much worse we overrated Giannis despite us not being directed to project. It really was over kill, its one thing to buy into his hype (if you're the type) but we're suppose to go off what we KNOW.
Not exactly. we were asked to rank the players based off what they are now. right now. "not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate..."

all numbers that can firmly support 'factual' arguments are in the past (or in the case of Kevin Love, the distant past). All numbers that can hypothetically be projected are a matter of the future. neither is here and now, our question was inherently abstract.


And what I know is that Giannis hasn't even been his teams best player much less top-30.

So what you're saying is we have Middleton way too low? haha

Do you view the Giannis ranking to be the single biggest mistake from the PSD vote?

FlashBolt
09-15-2016, 05:16 PM
Not exactly. we were asked to rank the players based off what they are now. right now. "not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate..."

all numbers that can firmly support 'factual' arguments are in the past (or in the case of Kevin Love, the distant past). All numbers that can hypothetically be projected are a matter of the future. neither is here and now, our question was inherently abstract.



So what you're saying is we have Middleton way too low? haha

Do you view the Giannis ranking to be the single biggest mistake from the PSD vote?

When Kidd finally decided to let Giannis abuse other PG's, we saw:

Since the All Star break, Giannis has averaged 18.8 points, 8.6 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.9 steals and 1.4 blocks while converting on 51 percent of his shots. Over this time of frame, the young forward has notched Five triple-doubles.

I refuse to believe someone who is capable of that is the "44th best player." Not after every season, he has shown improvement. KM hasn't improved much at all and you won't see a huge change in role from him because he's not a matchup nightmare Giannis can be. He's going to be a top five triple double threat in 2016-17 easily. Hell, he had five triple doubles in 28 games. That ranks only below Westbrook in triple double-games ratio. He would be second in triple doubles if Kidd had let him start the season as PG.

Chronz
09-15-2016, 05:35 PM
Projecting into 2017, KP wayyyy too low. Some real average players put ahead of him.

Deng
Marvin Williams,
Monroe
Gortat
Tristan
Iggy
Thad young
old Z-bo
George Hill

those guys gonna be better than KP next year? tons more debatable too.

meanwhile Gobert as almost a top 30 player is a reach.

Devin Booker also too low, there arent 99 players that are gonna be better than him next year.

Good catch, gotta read their justification for KP. Who knows where Booker goes next year but Im high on him, just not as a defender.

Chronz
09-15-2016, 05:45 PM
Not exactly. we were asked to rank the players based off what they are now. right now. "not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate..."
Right now, the recent past is more relevant than the unknown future, like we can all vary greatly on what we expect but what we just saw is far less subjective.


So what you're saying is we have Middleton way too low? haha

Do you view the Giannis ranking to be the single biggest mistake from the PSD vote?

Guess I have to look through the list again but I changed my mind on a few. Like maybe not put Melo up so high and its hard to say theres a mistake with a "tricky" thread topic. But out of all those we ranked, he definitely sticks out like a sore thumb because its a vote that has FAR more to do with projecting his improvements than him having proven it. Still, hes got all the tool so its not that drastic, I guess we prolly assessed him better than SI did tho. He does seem a tad low

da ThRONe
09-15-2016, 08:06 PM
Here's Bleacher Report's projected top 100 for the 2016-17 season... should give everyone a few laughs (lol @ Blake Griffin):

I think placing Blake outside of the top 10 is a gross insult to Griffin. How the hell can they justify 42!

5ass
09-15-2016, 08:58 PM
I like PSD's top 30 way more.

Giannis94
09-15-2016, 11:23 PM
y they hate on Giannis! This list sucks for that reason a lone!

ewing
09-15-2016, 11:30 PM
I think this list sucks

bingo

HandsOnTheWheel
09-16-2016, 02:38 AM
Lilliard & Kyrie are way too low.

Hawkeye15
09-16-2016, 10:17 AM
it seems as if SI, and Bleacher, rate Irving much closer to where I think he is, than PSD

The Greek Freak, I have problems ranking. I am not even sure he was the best player on his own team consistently, and I wouldn't put him top 30, so I did find it funny some argued so hard for him in the 20's here..

Shammyguy3
09-16-2016, 07:51 PM
Greek averaged 17/8/4 on good efficiency with good defense. He's a good jack of all trades guy. Anywhere from 25-40 is fair

FlashBolt
09-16-2016, 11:07 PM
Greek averaged 17/8/4 on good efficiency with good defense. He's a good jack of all trades guy. Anywhere from 25-40 is fair

19/9/7 when he started playing PG. Second best triple double % in the league. Only downside is he's too raw and has no shot. So much upside everywhere else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Raps18-19 Champ
09-16-2016, 11:14 PM
Steven Adams finally getting some respect.

LanceUpperCut
09-16-2016, 11:57 PM
Just way too much

Sadds The Gr8
09-17-2016, 01:16 AM
it seems as if SI, and Bleacher, rate Irving much closer to where I think he is, than PSD

The Greek Freak, I have problems ranking. I am not even sure he was the best player on his own team consistently, and I wouldn't put him top 30, so I did find it funny some argued so hard for him in the 20's here..

yea he has nice potential but I think he's overrated atm on here

nycericanguy
09-17-2016, 08:53 AM
Steven Adams finally getting some respect.

a little too much respect, hard for me to say he's a top 40 player and better than guys like Pau, Giannis, KP, Derozan...etc... he's never even played more than 25mpg.

Had a nice playoff run, but are there really only 39 players better than him in the entire league? Don't buy it. I think he should be closer to 75-100.

nycericanguy
09-17-2016, 08:55 AM
these rankings are just so hard because if you go off RIGHT NOW, you are ignoring that guys like KP, Towns, Giannis...etc... will be much more valuable next year. but if you go off projections then you are speculating too much. But then there always seems to be some projection anyway. I mean you have a guy like Pau who could fall off, vs a guy like Towns. Pau is probably better right now, but who wouldn't take Towns over him for next year?

5ass
09-17-2016, 03:50 PM
a little too much respect, hard for me to say he's a top 40 player and better than guys like Pau, Giannis, KP, Derozan...etc... he's never even played more than 25mpg.

Had a nice playoff run, but are there really only 39 players better than him in the entire league? Don't buy it. I think he should be closer to 75-100.

Agreed. Might as well put biyombo in the top 40 if Adams is there. He also had a good play off run, probably better than Adams'.

ManningToTyree
09-18-2016, 10:12 AM
This list is terrible the PSD list is much better actually

prodigy
09-20-2016, 05:59 AM
Al Horford is better then Kyrie Irving? ummm, no...

valade16
09-20-2016, 12:11 PM
a little too much respect, hard for me to say he's a top 40 player and better than guys like Pau, Giannis, KP, Derozan...etc... he's never even played more than 25mpg.

Had a nice playoff run, but are there really only 39 players better than him in the entire league? Don't buy it. I think he should be closer to 75-100.

Not saying this will happen to him, but remember when Hibbert had an amazing playoff run and everyone overrated him.

I think the Adams ranking is more projection than the Giannis ranking actually.

FlashBolt
09-20-2016, 12:56 PM
Al Horford is better then Kyrie Irving? ummm, no...

Exactly... Kyrie is getting underrated here. What he did in the playoffs should warrant SOMETHING. I mean, these NBA players are playing to win the championship and if someone shows up for the playoffs big-time, I think that's justification for a higher spot. Horford is irrelevant in the playoffs. It's why Hawks were never legitimate contenders despite always being in the playoffs.

Chronz
09-20-2016, 08:38 PM
Exactly... Kyrie is getting underrated here. What he did in the playoffs should warrant SOMETHING. I mean, these NBA players are playing to win the championship and if someone shows up for the playoffs big-time, I think that's justification for a higher spot. Horford is irrelevant in the playoffs. It's why Hawks were never legitimate contenders despite always being in the playoffs.
Pass on that. Without Bron, Kyrie is not doing what you stress. Besides, its not like Kyrie was that impressive, especially for someone who was holding his team back much of the year.

FlashBolt
09-20-2016, 09:17 PM
Pass on that. Without Bron, Kyrie is not doing what you stress. Besides, its not like Kyrie was that impressive, especially for someone who was holding his team back much of the year.

And many players wouldn't be doing what I stress if not for a system. Regardless, he's outperformed his expectations for the playoffs and outplayed Curry. He's heavily responsible for them being able to come back from a 1-3 deficit


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Chronz
09-20-2016, 10:42 PM
And many players wouldn't be doing what I stress if not for a system.
Rather rely on the system than a specific superstar, especially when the player in questioned is as unproven as Kyrie.


Regardless, he's outperformed his expectations for the playoffs and outplayed Curry.
So? He outplayed an injured player on a team that expected much less from him. Congrats!!! Wake me up when he does something of note.


He's heavily responsible for them being able to come back from a 1-3 deficit

Again, so what. Hes heavily responsible for his team going down 3-1 to begin with, despite his counterpart being injured. CP3 didn't make the Finals, am I suppose to be dumb enough to rank Kyrie that high cuz he could piggy back off Bron?

FlashBolt
09-20-2016, 11:15 PM
Rather rely on the system than a specific superstar, especially when the player in questioned is as unproven as Kyrie.


So? He outplayed an injured player on a team that expected much less from him. Congrats!!! Wake me up when he does something of note.


Again, so what. Hes heavily responsible for his team going down 3-1 to begin with, despite his counterpart being injured. CP3 didn't make the Finals, am I suppose to be dumb enough to rank Kyrie that high cuz he could piggy back off Bron?

When did I say Kyrie should be higher than CP3? I simply said that he should be higher than players like Al Horford. I'm sorry you place so much emphasis on regular season talent but have a disappearing act come the playoffs (Horford, Lowry, DeRozan). The ultimate goal of the NBA has always been to win the championship and if a player steps up compared to their regular season standards, then it warrants something. On a plus note, Kyrie was the second best player in the Finals. A Finals that had four NBA players ranked higher than him. He's the reason they're 3-1 but also a reason they're 4-3. Piggyback off LeBron? So I'm guessing it was LeBron who hit the gamewinning three? For all that's said about Kyrie, LeBron has never had a teammate like him other than Wade in their first year. Stop giving LeBron all the credit here. Kyrie is a beast and allowed for LeBron to dominate just as much as LeBron assisted Kyrie. What are you trying to prove here? Do you think LeBron wins without Kyrie? What is LeBron's efficiency going to be without Kyrie? If I remember correctly, it was Kyrie who was making the tough shots in game 5 and it was LeBron who said Kyrie should take the gamewinning shot in game 7. Kyrie took a lot of pressure off LeBron's shoulders.

prodigy
09-21-2016, 01:58 AM
Kyrie was very good without Lebron so not sure what you are talking about.

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 02:57 AM
Kyrie was very good without Lebron so not sure what you are talking about.

He was a 20/4/6 player for the Cavs before LeBron even came back. Yes, he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs but that doesn't mean he wasn't a good player. The Cavs literally went into full rebuild mode after they lost Big Z, Bron, and Mo along with key injuries to guys like Varejao. Simply put, Cavs were in no position to be a good team with or without Kyrie. LeBron didn't make the playoffs his first two seasons and he was the most hyped player coming into the NBA. What makes anyone think Kyrie could have lifted that Cavs team? In 12-13, Kyrie only played 59 games and Cavs were 19-40 (would have qualified for the playoffs if they kept that win %). The games he missed (23), Cavs were 5-18 (win % of 28%) --> qualifying for a 23 win record if they played 82 games without Kyrie. It was a bad team and any indication that Kyrie isn't good because he couldn't lead the Cavs anywhere before LeBron came back is false. Not many could and would have carried that Cavs team to the playoffs.. they dealt with an entire roster change, insertion of rookies, and injuries to veterans.

prodigy
09-21-2016, 04:06 AM
Right. Some people are just gonna hate. They have no facts to back anything up, they just love to be wrong.

HandsOnTheWheel
09-21-2016, 04:40 AM
Some logic SI. If you're going to include Draymond Green and Klay in the top 20 due to their winning 70+ games, I think it's safe to include Kyrie in the top 15, if not top 10 for his Finals run and WINNING a championship playing at an MVP level. Right??

And lol @ him "piggybacking off bron". He didn't do anything of note in the Finals? Lmao ok.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 09:47 AM
Kyrie was very good without Lebron so not sure what you are talking about.

he was good at getting buckets, bad at everything else.

Kyrie is not a top 20 player.

Vee-Rex
09-21-2016, 10:20 AM
The hate for Kyrie is real.


he was good at getting buckets, bad at everything else.

Kyrie is not a top 20 player.

I'm cool with Kyrie being a borderline top 20 player.

You've come a long way from saying he wasn't a top 50 player, though. I'm proud of you.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 10:27 AM
The hate for Kyrie is real.



I'm cool with Kyrie being a borderline top 20 player.

You've come a long way from saying he wasn't a top 50 player, though. I'm proud of you.

I think he can be a top 20 player this season, but it needs to build off his finals. Because his play outside that doesn't merit it. Can he consistently not be a bad defender? Will he start being more consistent in the team game? He is 24, and has the tools. So far, he hasn't realized his potential, but he has time to do it.

lakerfan85
09-21-2016, 10:56 AM
How the hell is Jordan in the top 20??

Chronz
09-21-2016, 11:32 AM
Kyrie was very good without Lebron so not sure what you are talking about.

Not Al Horford good.

Chronz
09-21-2016, 11:38 AM
Some logic SI. If you're going to include Draymond Green and Klay in the top 20 due to their winning 70+ games, I think it's safe to include Kyrie in the top 15, if not top 10 for his Finals run and WINNING a championship playing at an MVP level. Right??

And lol @ him "piggybacking off bron". He didn't do anything of note in the Finals? Lmao ok.

They based their list on transfer ability between teams , 2-way play, productive value and yeah, how they lead the team. Still too unproven, playing well in the Finals doesn't automatically elevate him above everyone, we need a significant sample. Lots of guys have played well in specific runs series only to never reach that status again, wake me up when he does something of note beyond a few games. His abysmal RS that held his teammates back, coinciding with a poor showing in the FIBA tourney where he was EASILY the worst defensive player amongst them and such a poor facilitator that KD had to basically take the reigns away from him at Coach K's behest. Hes a scorer who had a hot stretch, thats it. Tons of talent but nobody is underrating him, its just some of you dont understand the game beyond buckets.

Chronz
09-21-2016, 11:39 AM
The hate for Kyrie is real.
Its hate to prefer other players? I consider it love FOR THEM.

valade16
09-21-2016, 11:51 AM
Steph Curry injured? Sorry, I don't buy that as an excuse.

Was he injured when he was whooping and hollering about how he was back vs the Blazers? Nobody thought he was still injured then. He gets to the finals and gets outplayed and now his injury is so serious it invalidates the play of Kyrie (and Bron).

Nope, not buying it.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 12:02 PM
They based their list on transfer ability between teams , 2-way play, productive value and yeah, how they lead the team. Still too unproven, playing well in the Finals doesn't automatically elevate him above everyone, we need a significant sample. Lots of guys have played well in specific runs series only to never reach that status again, wake me up when he does something of note beyond a few games. His abysmal RS that held his teammates back, coinciding with a poor showing in the FIBA tourney where he was EASILY the worst defensive player amongst them and such a poor facilitator that KD had to basically take the reigns away from him at Coach K's behest. Hes a scorer who had a hot stretch, thats it. Tons of talent but nobody is underrating him, its just some of you dont understand the game beyond buckets.

bingo. I can't believe 3 games is getting Irving this much love. Seriously

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 12:03 PM
They based their list on transfer ability between teams , 2-way play, productive value and yeah, how they lead the team. Still too unproven, playing well in the Finals doesn't automatically elevate him above everyone, we need a significant sample. Lots of guys have played well in specific runs series only to never reach that status again, wake me up when he does something of note beyond a few games. His abysmal RS that held his teammates back, coinciding with a poor showing in the FIBA tourney where he was EASILY the worst defensive player amongst them and such a poor facilitator that KD had to basically take the reigns away from him at Coach K's behest. Hes a scorer who had a hot stretch, thats it. Tons of talent but nobody is underrating him, its just some of you dont understand the game beyond buckets.

And what kept Cleveland alive in gams 5-7? You don't think Kyrie's "buckets" had anything to do with that? You're simply putting LeBron on a high chair right now but ignoring that LeBron had the ability to the operate the way he did because of the attention Kyrie drew. And I'm sorry you put too much credit on a regular season that some players just don't have the motivation to care for. You can't possibly tell me LeBron doesn't coast in the regular season and then still tell me he isn't the best player in the NBA.

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 12:04 PM
bingo. I can't believe 3 games is getting Irving this much love. Seriously

You mean his 25 PPG on 48% shooting before the Warriors series?

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 12:17 PM
You mean his 25 PPG on 48% shooting before the Warriors series?

again, what else has he ever offered outside some scoring in hot pockets? He was horrible defensively all year (hell his whole career), doesn't create offense for anyone but himself, and hasn't lived up to his own potential.

I get called a hater, but what the hell has Irving done, outside get hot at the right time to somehow convince people that he is a great player, to warrant the love he is getting on PSD?

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 12:22 PM
again, what else has he ever offered outside some scoring in hot pockets? He was horrible defensively all year (hell his whole career), doesn't create offense for anyone but himself, and hasn't lived up to his own potential.

I get called a hater, but what the hell has Irving done, outside get hot at the right time to somehow convince people that he is a great player, to warrant the love he is getting on PSD?

You just saw what he did... He helped Cleveland win the championship by being the 2nd best player in the playoffs/2nd best player in the Finals when there were four other players ranked above him on most lists.. Okay, so what has Kyle Lowry done? Play well in the regular season and then forget how to play basketball in the playoffs? He creates offense just by being on the court, buddy. When LeBron was in Miami, the issue was Wade couldn't help him offensively because he was past his prime and can't shoot. Now when LeBron gets that player that FITS his game, you're telling me he isn't doing enough? Cavs operate better when LeBron handles the offense and Kyrie scores. That's how Cavs won and that will be how they win in the future.

valade16
09-21-2016, 01:15 PM
again, what else has he ever offered outside some scoring in hot pockets? He was horrible defensively all year (hell his whole career), doesn't create offense for anyone but himself, and hasn't lived up to his own potential.

I get called a hater, but what the hell has Irving done, outside get hot at the right time to somehow convince people that he is a great player, to warrant the love he is getting on PSD?

It's not like other players haven't had their careers defined on their performance in the playoffs. Subtract the playoffs and suddenly IKH's D-Rob > Hakeem is not so out there.

Kyrie was great in the Pistons and the Hawks series. Then he finished out strong vs GS. Yes he's a one dimensional scorer, but his ability to penetrate with his quickness/dribbling coupled with his 3pt shooting makes him a nightmare for defenses.

I mean Steven Adams is really high on this list because of a playoff run and literally nothing else. Do you share the same animosity towards his ranking?

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 01:36 PM
It's not like other players haven't had their careers defined on their performance in the playoffs. Subtract the playoffs and suddenly IKH's D-Rob > Hakeem is not so out there.

Kyrie was great in the Pistons and the Hawks series. Then he finished out strong vs GS. Yes he's a one dimensional scorer, but his ability to penetrate with his quickness/dribbling coupled with his 3pt shooting makes him a nightmare for defenses.

I mean Steven Adams is really high on this list because of a playoff run and literally nothing else. Do you share the same animosity towards his ranking?

I simply don't value guys who aren't consistent as high as others. Now, does it matter if you continually fall off come playoff time? Oh yeah. But Irving hasn't shown the body of work to include him in the list of star players. At all.

Adams comes up how often? Never sound about right? Irving is all over this site.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 01:38 PM
You just saw what he did... He helped Cleveland win the championship by being the 2nd best player in the playoffs/2nd best player in the Finals when there were four other players ranked above him on most lists.. Okay, so what has Kyle Lowry done? Play well in the regular season and then forget how to play basketball in the playoffs? He creates offense just by being on the court, buddy. When LeBron was in Miami, the issue was Wade couldn't help him offensively because he was past his prime and can't shoot. Now when LeBron gets that player that FITS his game, you're telling me he isn't doing enough? Cavs operate better when LeBron handles the offense and Kyrie scores. That's how Cavs won and that will be how they win in the future.

you are valuing 3 games in the finals, and pockets of games against the Pistons and Hawks, over his body of work.

Moving forward, he will need to prove he can consistently not hurt his team defensively, and create for others, while continuing to score efficiently, to be considered a top PG.

FlashBolt
09-21-2016, 01:40 PM
you are valuing 3 games in the finals, and pockets of games against the Pistons and Hawks, over his body of work.

Moving forward, he will need to prove he can consistently not hurt his team defensively, and create for others, while continuing to score efficiently, to be considered a top PG.

Look at who is above him in the top twenty. You can't say the same for most of those guys there. Hell, you probably have Klay above him and what has Klay done? What does Klay do so well that Kyrie can't other than defend (which Kyrie more than makes up for offensively)? And sorry I value his ENTIRE playoff history this season.. I should use his regular season.. the same numbers that put him right there with Kyle Lowry?

Hawkeye15
09-21-2016, 02:13 PM
Look at who is above him in the top twenty. You can't say the same for most of those guys there. Hell, you probably have Klay above him and what has Klay done? What does Klay do so well that Kyrie can't other than defend (which Kyrie more than makes up for offensively)? And sorry I value his ENTIRE playoff history this season.. I should use his regular season.. the same numbers that put him right there with Kyle Lowry?

Klay is a better player. So is Lowry. You are using 20 games over a career worth of evidence.

Chronz
09-21-2016, 02:37 PM
Steph Curry injured? Sorry, I don't buy that as an excuse.

Was he injured when he was whooping and hollering about how he was back vs the Blazers? Nobody thought he was still injured then. He gets to the finals and gets outplayed and now his injury is so serious it invalidates the play of Kyrie (and Bron).

Nope, not buying it.

Well he did get hurt to close the OKC series and Cleveland was strategically attacking/defending him with the vulnerability in mind.

It was definitely a factor but thems the breaks

Chronz
09-21-2016, 04:21 PM
And what kept Cleveland alive in gams 5-7? You don't think Kyrie's "buckets" had anything to do with that? You're simply putting LeBron on a high chair right now but ignoring that LeBron had the ability to the operate the way he did because of the attention Kyrie drew. And I'm sorry you put too much credit on a regular season that some players just don't have the motivation to care for. You can't possibly tell me LeBron doesn't coast in the regular season and then still tell me he isn't the best player in the NBA.
Lots of things kept Cleveland alive, some beyond their control. Im not ignoring anything, I just dont put him on the pedestal you do.

Vee-Rex
09-21-2016, 04:39 PM
Don't bother, Flash. You're arguing against dudes who have a bias against Kyrie and will value the regular season over the playoffs when it comes to that discussion. But when they argue for guys they favor, suddenly those '20 playoff games' are meaningful.

valade16
09-21-2016, 05:08 PM
Can we at least stop with this "3 games" nonsense? He had a great playoffs last year. Heck his playoff stats the last 2 seasons are exceptionally good.

prodigy
09-22-2016, 01:53 AM
again, what else has he ever offered outside some scoring in hot pockets? He was horrible defensively all year (hell his whole career), doesn't create offense for anyone but himself, and hasn't lived up to his own potential.

I get called a hater, but what the hell has Irving done, outside get hot at the right time to somehow convince people that he is a great player, to warrant the love he is getting on PSD?

WTF has Horford offered? LMAO! Other then getting smoked by Cavs every year.

Irving has been a proven scorer in this league since entering. Best ball handler in the NBA only Curry comes close. When I say proven scorer I mean pretty much all aspects of scoring. He won a 3pt contest. prob the best finishing PG around the basket in the NBA, Great FT shooter, very clutch etc... Irving the past 2 seasons has been a much improved defender. When ur on a winning team players tend to give more effort on that end.

More-Than-Most
09-22-2016, 02:51 AM
WTF has Horford offered? LMAO! Other then getting smoked by Cavs every year.

Irving has been a proven scorer in this league since entering. Best ball handler in the NBA only Curry comes close. When I say proven scorer I mean pretty much all aspects of scoring. He won a 3pt contest. prob the best finishing PG around the basket in the NBA, Great FT shooter, very clutch etc... Irving the past 2 seasons has been a much improved defender. When ur on a winning team players tend to give more effort on that end.

where the hell has he improved defensively? Please Elaborate because we are talking about one of the worst defenders at his position... He won a 3 point contest? really? I have no issues with his ball handling or being a great finisher if those are the arguments you all wanna make but when has a playoff run where he was very good for a handful of games jump someone as much as kyrie fans are trying to jump kyrie?

We are talking about someone who has a 20/5/3 on 44 percent shooting with 0 defense and trying to justify them as a top 15-20 player because of one playoff run where he was very good...

if this is the argument people are trying to make then right now who is better? Wade or Kyrie? legit curious for the kyrie people.

More-Than-Most
09-22-2016, 03:01 AM
Look at who is above him in the top twenty. You can't say the same for most of those guys there. Hell, you probably have Klay above him and what has Klay done? What does Klay do so well that Kyrie can't other than defend (which Kyrie more than makes up for offensively)? And sorry I value his ENTIRE playoff history this season.. I should use his regular season.. the same numbers that put him right there with Kyle Lowry?

Other then Defend? Literally half of what a player is asked to do? His offense makes up for how bad he is on defense but no where near where you guys want him ranked... esp over guys who are slightly worse offensively but just better defensively.

Hawkeye15
09-22-2016, 09:29 AM
WTF has Horford offered? LMAO! Other then getting smoked by Cavs every year.

Irving has been a proven scorer in this league since entering. Best ball handler in the NBA only Curry comes close. When I say proven scorer I mean pretty much all aspects of scoring. He won a 3pt contest. prob the best finishing PG around the basket in the NBA, Great FT shooter, very clutch etc... Irving the past 2 seasons has been a much improved defender. When ur on a winning team players tend to give more effort on that end.

Horford has clearly been the superior player. Love won a 3 point contest. Hell, KAT won the skills competition, maybe he is the best ball handler/passer in the league, right?

Irving has offered buckets, terrible defense (not sure what the hell you are watching), and inconsistency as a playmaker, at best. He had pockets of great offense in the playoffs, and got hot at the perfect time. Cavs fans fail to grasp, he was probably one of the biggest reasons you were down 3-1...

Vee-Rex
09-22-2016, 09:45 AM
WTF has Horford offered? LMAO! Other then getting smoked by Cavs every year.

Irving has been a proven scorer in this league since entering. Best ball handler in the NBA only Curry comes close. When I say proven scorer I mean pretty much all aspects of scoring. He won a 3pt contest. prob the best finishing PG around the basket in the NBA, Great FT shooter, very clutch etc... Irving the past 2 seasons has been a much improved defender. When ur on a winning team players tend to give more effort on that end.

Seriously - don't bother. It won't get you anywhere.

Lillard has just as many flaws as Irving, yet for some reason he's always regarded as a far superior player on here even when he was playing with LMA (and both players are statistically identical while Irving has superior playoff stats). I think they're pretty close, but that's not the view shared on here.

When it comes down to it, I've annihilated these guys with stats and all sorts of logic combined. At the end, they'll just be like, "ummm well he has a ton of potential we gotta see this next season!"

You see none of them bring up that +/- nonsense anymore and how Delly supposedly made the Cavs better than Irving because I shut that **** down and will easily do it again. It's best to agree to disagree and watch them eat a hot plate of crow next season. :laugh2:

Chronz
09-22-2016, 09:51 AM
Yeah why is anyone pointing to the 3pt competition while ignoring his FIBA play where he, again, held his team back? Someone wake me up when Irving's level of play holds steadfast for longer than one of my epic farts.

Hawkeye15
09-22-2016, 10:03 AM
Seriously - don't bother. It won't get you anywhere.

Lillard has just as many flaws as Irving, yet for some reason he's always regarded as a far superior player on here even when he was playing with LMA (and both players are statistically identical while Irving has superior playoff stats). I think they're pretty close, but that's not the view shared on here.

When it comes down to it, I've annihilated these guys with stats and all sorts of logic combined. At the end, they'll just be like, "ummm well he has a ton of potential we gotta see this next season!"

You see none of them bring up that +/- nonsense anymore and how Delly supposedly made the Cavs better than Irving because I shut that **** down and will easily do it again. It's best to agree to disagree and watch them eat a hot plate of crow next season. :laugh2:

right, and ignored the ones that don't favor your argument.

Who is talking about Lillard anyways? While I would take him personally over Irving, I am not going to go down fighting making a case. He has at least shown he doesn't need to have a mega star next to him to win.

Vee-Rex
09-22-2016, 10:31 AM
right, and ignored the ones that don't favor your argument.

Who is talking about Lillard anyways? While I would take him personally over Irving, I am not going to go down fighting making a case. He has at least shown he doesn't need to have a mega star next to him to win.

Ignored stats like your silly +/- argument? :laugh2: I'm glad you threw that away in the dumpster.

Still claiming Irving isn't a top 50 player?

Didn't think so.

Lillard is a comparison that shows the mindset about how people view both players. If you want to make the foolish argument that somehow Lillard would have taken a squad with Earl Clark, Dion Waiters, Andrew Bynum, Omri Casspi, Alonzo Gee, etc... to the playoffs then have at it.

There is absolutely no comparison you can make to Lillard's 15-16 team to any of Irving's pre-LeBron teams, so why be obtuse and bring up Lillard winning?

FlashBolt
09-22-2016, 11:59 AM
Other then Defend? Literally half of what a player is asked to do? His offense makes up for how bad he is on defense but no where near where you guys want him ranked... esp over guys who are slightly worse offensively but just better defensively.

1) Klay doesn't defend half the game.. he defends in spurts. Not every play runs through the man he is defending. Plus, he has enough elite defensive players on his team to cover for mishaps that otherwise may be exposed. Harden's defense would look better playing in the Warriors whereas Klay will have more difficulty due to Houston lacking any defensive presence outside of Beverley.
2) I get it. You want to give LeBron all the credit because you would "suck him dry" as you posted before but this is reality. Kyrie Irving had a large part in helping Cavs win the championship. Say what you want about him but that's the truth. 27 points in the NBA Finals on elite efficiency overall is nothing to scoff at. And please tell me what Klay can do in the rebounding/passing department. He's clueless and it's why his only role is to stay open and defend.
3) So can you explain to me what the great Klay Thompson did in the Finals when "guarding" Kyrie? Or how about his offensive potency? Did you see that in the NBA Finals? So why is it he gets credit for all these things done when it DIDN'T matter but doesn't get downgraded when it DOES matter? I'm not saying ignore the regular season (which is indeed a large portion of the NBA season) but some players just don't care (namely LeBron). Some of you just ignore that Kyrie Irving was a 21/4/6 player before LeBron came. He can play basketball.. and you can take Al Horford (Mr. I show up for the regular season but forget how to play in the playoffs). And Hawkeye is a complete hypocrite because in another thread, he pointed out that Joe Johnson didn't improve as a player (despite his numbers and performance increasing in Atlanta) but then said he was the same player because he caved in the playoffs.. The playoffs is only a few games according to you but enough to say Joe Johnson caved.. Good logic there. Wish you used the same for Kyrie.

All I'm saying is this: Yes, Kyrie didn't have the best regular season. But what I do know is that he will step up when it matters (which is why he makes some incredible clutch shots time and time again). You take the guy who doesn't step up when it matters... That's why your team loses. (Cough cough, Raptors/Hawks notorious losers despite great regular seasons).


Yeah why is anyone pointing to the 3pt competition while ignoring his FIBA play where he, again, held his team back? Someone wake me up when Irving's level of play holds steadfast for longer than one of my epic farts.

But the FIBA was only a few games so why are you judging him by that now? (Yeah, sarcasm buddy).

Chronz
09-22-2016, 12:59 PM
But the FIBA was only a few games so why are you judging him by that now? (Yeah, sarcasm buddy).
True, but its more noteworthy than an all-star mini game thats for sure. Especially when it continues what I consider a disturbing trend in his game, even when surrounded by the best players possible, in a role that you would think affords him enough rest to compete on BOTH ends, he remained the biggest liability defensively. It was FIBA that really compounds just how much he lacks as a facilitator/defender. Hes a good compliment for Bron but given his talent, I think he should be a GREAT compliment.

Like if Lillard or Lowry were in his steed riding the horse that is Bron, I can envision them playing within the offense he creates better. Both are better outlet options who can abuse defenses in a mad scramble, I feel like Kyrie wants to initiate the offense and create more on his own than they do and this despite them having more attention heaped on them.

Maybe if we swapped them, Kyrie leads his own team at a superior level, hard to say with this stuff but we all have our beliefs.

Vee-Rex
09-22-2016, 03:45 PM
True, but its more noteworthy than an all-star mini game thats for sure. Especially when it continues what I consider a disturbing trend in his game, even when surrounded by the best players possible, in a role that you would think affords him enough rest to compete on BOTH ends, he remained the biggest liability defensively. It was FIBA that really compounds just how much he lacks as a facilitator/defender. Hes a good compliment for Bron but given his talent, I think he should be a GREAT compliment.

Like if Lillard or Lowry were in his steed riding the horse that is Bron, I can envision them playing within the offense he creates better. Both are better outlet options who can abuse defenses in a mad scramble, I feel like Kyrie wants to initiate the offense and create more on his own than they do and this despite them having more attention heaped on them.

Maybe if we swapped them, Kyrie leads his own team at a superior level, hard to say with this stuff but we all have our beliefs.

Chronz, so you're gonna complete ignore 2 deep playoff runs ('14-15, '15-16) in which Kyrie played extremely well and was an average/plus defender in both, ignore how well he played in the 2014 FIBA tournament (and won MVP shooting 56% from the field and 60% from 3-point range on 18ppg 5apg per 36minutes and played solid defense), but bash him because of how he played in this year's Olympics??

Come on, man. No one here is claiming that Kyrie is as good as CP3 or Steph or Westy. All 3 of those guys are top 6-7 players on pretty much every legitimate list. But you can't put more weight into his last Olympics than 2 deep playoff runs and a 2014 Fiba tournament combined.

You're the same guys that want to criticize Kyrie's regular season performance while ignoring the fact that he missed 6 months due to injury, missed training camp, and was thrown back into the lineup and was completely crap in December/January*

*YET, you want excuse Curry for missing 2 weeks with a very mild strain, despite the fact that he exploded back and averaged 35/10/7 in two games against Portland and put up his normal (14-15) playoff numbers in the series vs. OKC, but because he crapped the bed in the finals it's because of injury so it's okay.

So we excuse Curry for underperforming (AFTER performing extremely well) following a mild 2-week strain, but bash Kyrie for his regular season after missing 6 months and ignore his playoff performances and ignore his terrific 2014-15 regular season?

Lol give me a break.

Vee-Rex
09-22-2016, 04:03 PM
Fun Fact: Kyrie Irving was increasing his assist total per game prior LeBron's return to Cleveland (5.4, 5.9, 6.1) and immediately dropped to 4-5apg afterwards. Interesting notation: Kyrie was passing the ball to bums who was missing open shots.

In the same manner, Dwyane Wade was averaging 6-7.5 assists per game with the Heat before LeBron went there. With LeBron, Wade's assists dropped to 4-5apg.

Anyone claiming Kyrie is a trash/terrible facilitator is flat wrong. He's not the best, and it's definitely not the focus of his game, but he's not just some kind of black-hole on offense that only shoots the ball like how people make him out to be.

Hawkeye15
09-22-2016, 04:09 PM
I think the best way to explain Kryie is,

elite talent for the PG position, but not an elite PG. With the buckets, and oh's and ah's, there still isn't consistent impact in the winning area. At times he can win a game for you, at other times he loses it for you. He is nowhere near the CP3/Curry/Westbrook level at this point. I would even take a few others over him, and then depending on team/fit, potentially even more.

Vee-Rex
09-22-2016, 05:23 PM
I think the best way to explain Kryie is,

elite talent for the PG position, but not an elite PG. With the buckets, and oh's and ah's, there still isn't consistent impact in the winning area. At times he can win a game for you, at other times he loses it for you. He is nowhere near the CP3/Curry/Westbrook level at this point. I would even take a few others over him, and then depending on team/fit, potentially even more.

See, we're not too far apart, Hawkeye. The only part I disagree with is the bolded. I think more often than not he will win games, or at least contribute in a manner necessary for a team to win. Otherwise? He would be an average player or a net-zero player if he gave up as much as he gives. No matter how high the number or how strong the force, if there is an equal and opposite/negative force, the result is zero. Kyrie is not a zero player.

He is a consistent scorer that has stepped up his offense and defense in the playoffs each time - and that's something you can't really say about a lot of talent in the NBA, let alone non-talented players.

Although the playoffs are not a large sample, the playoffs are still important. The playoffs are where defenses scheme, game-plan, lockdown, and intensify in every way possible, and Kyrie has shown time and again that he can score efficiently in the playoff atmosphere with zero to minimum help from LeBron.

People forget that Kyrie led his team to within 5 games of the playoffs in 2013-14 with a rag-tag group of players. Give him a team with Derozan + Valanciunas + 2Pat + Biyombo, or give him a team with McCollum + Aminu + Vonleh + Leonard and he'd probably be able to make the playoffs. A Kyrie-led team might not reach 56 wins like a Lowry team, but he most certainly wouldn't fall apart in the playoffs or during any of the biggest moments.

More-Than-Most
09-22-2016, 06:51 PM
1) Klay doesn't defend half the game.. he defends in spurts. Not every play runs through the man he is defending. Plus, he has enough elite defensive players on his team to cover for mishaps that otherwise may be exposed. Harden's defense would look better playing in the Warriors whereas Klay will have more difficulty due to Houston lacking any defensive presence outside of Beverley.
2) I get it. You want to give LeBron all the credit because you would "suck him dry" as you posted before but this is reality. Kyrie Irving had a large part in helping Cavs win the championship. Say what you want about him but that's the truth. 27 points in the NBA Finals on elite efficiency overall is nothing to scoff at. And please tell me what Klay can do in the rebounding/passing department. He's clueless and it's why his only role is to stay open and defend.
3) So can you explain to me what the great Klay Thompson did in the Finals when "guarding" Kyrie? Or how about his offensive potency? Did you see that in the NBA Finals? So why is it he gets credit for all these things done when it DIDN'T matter but doesn't get downgraded when it DOES matter? I'm not saying ignore the regular season (which is indeed a large portion of the NBA season) but some players just don't care (namely LeBron). Some of you just ignore that Kyrie Irving was a 21/4/6 player before LeBron came. He can play basketball.. and you can take Al Horford (Mr. I show up for the regular season but forget how to play in the playoffs). And Hawkeye is a complete hypocrite because in another thread, he pointed out that Joe Johnson didn't improve as a player (despite his numbers and performance increasing in Atlanta) but then said he was the same player because he caved in the playoffs.. The playoffs is only a few games according to you but enough to say Joe Johnson caved.. Good logic there. Wish you used the same for Kyrie.

All I'm saying is this: Yes, Kyrie didn't have the best regular season. But what I do know is that he will step up when it matters (which is why he makes some incredible clutch shots time and time again). You take the guy who doesn't step up when it matters... That's why your team loses. (Cough cough, Raptors/Hawks notorious losers despite great regular seasons).



But the FIBA was only a few games so why are you judging him by that now? (Yeah, sarcasm buddy).

Why exactly do I need to try and water down lebrons team talent? Everyone knows he does more with less than anyone... He and Kyrie carried the team against arguably a goat team last year... I think Love/Kyrie/Lebron is a horrid fit and have them behind several teams unlike others because Kyrie/Love play no defense... Esp Kyrie.

I am not watering down kyrie to up lebron... I have kyrie in the 18-25 spot but see no argument for him being top 15 like you guys do... We know what Lebron is... He is a top 3 GOAT and the best player in basketball.. My argument against Kyrie has 0 to do with lebrons standing but good try... My argument against Kyrie is his defense and the fact he is a streaky scorer who had a mediocre regular season esp if you factor in his god awful defense... Id take kyrie over almost 95 percent of the league on age and potential alone but if we are gauging him next season and we go by the bulk of what he has done and what he is I see no argument for him as a top 15 player... Very little argument for him as a top 15-20 player and a fair argument for him as a 20-30 player.... Tell me where I am wrong? Tell me how he is any better than Dwayne Wade if we are using the playoff argument you guys are basing all your arguments on? Almost Identical regular season with wade possibly being better in the playoffs and everyone knows I rank wade 25-35... So tell me what the difference is with Kyrie?

prodigy
09-23-2016, 09:18 AM
We are talking about someone who has a 20/5/3 on 44 percent shooting with 0 defense and trying to justify them as a top 15-20 player because of one playoff run where he was very good...

zero defense? so everyone who goes against Kyrie shoots 100% scoring 80pts? lol stop. only one guy who gives close to zero defense and he's prob in ur top 5 that's Harden. (BTW don't be dumb, I'm not saying Kyrie is higher then Harden, Just if ur gonna judge Kyrie solely on defense you better be fair and judge everyone.)



Right now? as in almost 2017? I'm taking Kyrie. Wade prob has a couple strong years left, Kyrie is just getting started. Wades still playing well, but he's nothing from what he was. I'm not sure why anyone would take Wade right now.

prodigy
09-23-2016, 09:22 AM
Irving is a 38% 3pt and been over 40% twice in his career. My point about 3pt contest was just saying he's a damn good shooter. Along with everything else he does extremely well.