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View Full Version : Starting from Scratch: Tracy McGrady vs Dwyane Wade



Shammyguy3
09-13-2016, 02:15 PM
If you were starting a team from scratch, which player would you favor and why?

KnicksorBust
09-13-2016, 02:19 PM
Wade. People on this site love to drool over T-Mac's Orlando peak but Wade post-Shaq went nova too. That plus how he showed he can elevate his game in the Finals makes the decision for me.

valade16
09-13-2016, 02:22 PM
Outside 1 year when he had a good TS% (.564) McGrady was a pretty inefficient scorer.

Career .519 TS% and his 2nd best year was .532.

KnicksorBust
09-13-2016, 02:45 PM
Outside 1 year when he had a good TS% (.564) McGrady was a pretty inefficient scorer.

Career .519 TS% and his 2nd best year was .532.

This is exactly the type of post many people hate to read because it breaks down a player's entire career to one advanced statistic. It ignores a lot of other parts of McGrady's grame such as his ball handling, passing (ast/to specifically), ability to stretch the floor, and underrated defense... so like I said... Wade. :laugh:

Federal Reserve
09-13-2016, 03:18 PM
T-mac was an inefficient chucker who was exposed during the playoffs. Dwyane Wade, with a bit of help from the refs, won a championship as the main player before reaching his prime. That's unheard of. How this is even a poll I do not understand. T-mac is remembered only for having "that one season." That's his career. Meanwhile, I could write pages about the memorable moments in Wade's career.

FlashBolt
09-13-2016, 03:49 PM
Outside 1 year when he had a good TS% (.564) McGrady was a pretty inefficient scorer.

Career .519 TS% and his 2nd best year was .532.

Oh... so now efficiency matters to you?

valade16
09-13-2016, 03:50 PM
This is exactly the type of post many people hate to read because it breaks down a player's entire career to one advanced statistic. It ignores a lot of other parts of McGrady's grame such as his ball handling, passing (ast/to specifically), ability to stretch the floor, and underrated defense... so like I said... Wade. :laugh:

It's just interesting to me that every other player who is an inefficient scorer gets endless hate for it yet T-Mac never seems to get the same criticism.

In regards to this specific debate, it's not like Wade doesn't have a great all around game himself, he was also better on defense in his prime and an equal passer. And he was a more efficient scorer who doesn't have near the injury concerns.

I'd go Wade

FlashBolt
09-13-2016, 04:06 PM
It's just interesting to me that every other player who is an inefficient scorer gets endless hate for it yet T-Mac never seems to get the same criticism.

In regards to this specific debate, it's not like Wade doesn't have a great all around game himself, he was also better on defense in his prime and an equal passer. And he was a more efficient scorer who doesn't have near the injury concerns.

I'd go Wade

Precisely because T-Mac was an all-around player with good defense. Now.. if you're referring to AI, then what did AI do better than T-Mac?

valade16
09-13-2016, 04:28 PM
Precisely because T-Mac was an all-around player with good defense. Now.. if you're referring to AI, then what did AI do better than T-Mac?

Sorry, try again...

T-Mac was also an inefficient chucker when it comes to scoring.

FlashBolt
09-13-2016, 04:33 PM
Sorry, try again...

T-Mac was also an inefficient chucker when it comes to scoring.

I have zero reason to defend T-Mac so I'm not sure why you would even suggest I am "angry." And yes, McGrady at his peak was a very good defender when he opted to be. But still, you ignore my post regarding your sudden affection for scoring effectiveness.. why is that? If you want to go back to the AI debate, you shouldn't have left that thread.

Redrum187
09-13-2016, 04:37 PM
If we were doing an All Time redraft, McGrady is on par with Kobe... =/ McGrady > Pippen... =/

I can't really think of an argument for McGrady over Wade, and I'm not a Wade fan whatsoever. It's pretty clear cut, Wade.

valade16
09-13-2016, 04:48 PM
I have zero reason to defend T-Mac so I'm not sure why you would even suggest I am "angry." And yes, McGrady at his peak was a very good defender when he opted to be. But still, you ignore my post regarding your sudden affection for scoring effectiveness.. why is that? If you want to go back to the AI debate, you shouldn't have left that thread.

The only one who brought up AI in this thread is you

FlashBolt
09-13-2016, 04:53 PM
The only one who brought up AI in this thread is you. Seems like you brought your problem with me into this thread.

Don't try to call me out for being a bad Mod by bringing an argument into a thread when you're the one who brought the argument in here.

1) The part of you trying to claim I was angry made zero sense considering my post was completely unbiased and had nothing to do with emotion.

2) Yeah, I brought AI into this to show the distinct difference between AI's and McGrady's game. McGrady was a much better player than AI all-around. I don't think that has to even be debated. Yes, both were quite inefficient in scoring but advanced numbers support McGrady all-around game and so does production.

So why is it you want to bring up inefficiency now but not during the AI thread? That's the only reason I was questioning your motive in bringing that up.

europagnpilgrim
09-13-2016, 05:12 PM
Tmac

for basketball reasons only

YAALREADYKNO
09-13-2016, 05:14 PM
I'll go with Wade

Chronz
09-13-2016, 06:31 PM
Prolly Wade but I'd LOVE to see all the current gen of wings show the skillset to thrive in the most defensively dominant era in NBA history. Its kind of sad that some of you boil down the mans entire career to "that 1" season, the guy finished his career with like the 9th most All-NBA selections or something.

Ill argue Tmac for one reason, its building from scratch and I fancy myself a great 2K GM so I would build around him abit differently, Im not inheriting all the teammates that helped or held them back. Instead of Wade having Shaq and Bron, imagine him with Grant Hill on the sidelines.

I think Tmac is the easier player to build around because of his advanced skill set.


It's just interesting to me that every other player who is an inefficient scorer gets endless hate for it yet T-Mac never seems to get the same criticism.
Its due to his offensive efficiency and superb defense. Hard to hate on a guy who posts historic stats


In regards to this specific debate, it's not like Wade doesn't have a great all around game himself, he was also better on defense in his prime and an equal passer. And he was a more efficient scorer who doesn't have near the injury concerns.
I dont believe he was better on defense and hes a better playmaker but I dont think hes a better passer. Wade is godly at his peak so we have to nit pick but his lack of range, inferior rebounding and turn over prone game kind of stunt that all-aroundness. Statistics are always kept with the league in mind, Peak v Peak, the reason Wade sports inferior PER numbers despite this superior scoring efficiency is because hes always played in the no-HC era. What do you think is more impressive, Tmac sporting an equal per possession efficiency in a significantly tougher defensive era or Wade matching him as a slasher in the newer NBA? Career wise you're prolly right tho

Shammyguy3
09-13-2016, 07:06 PM
good points Chronz, Tmac had to go up against the early/mid 00s Spurs, 00s Pistons, 00s Pacers, 00s Lakers, 00s 76ers. Not to mention the Suns, Knicks, Miami etc.

More-Than-Most
09-13-2016, 07:52 PM
Tmac... I love his all around game and he went up against much more defensive competition on top of having very little help around him... Give Tmac Shaq/Lebron and its a different story. I have no issue with someone selecting Wade though... I think Tmac would just be easily to build around

valade16
09-13-2016, 08:03 PM
Do we have any tangible evidence T-Mac was this superior defender?

JordansBulls
09-13-2016, 08:37 PM
Wade, we already know he can led a franchise to a title as the man.

Chronz
09-13-2016, 09:01 PM
Do we have any tangible evidence T-Mac was this superior defender?
Prolly but do you have any anecdotal evidence?
Quick, name the best defensive series Wade has ever had and/or who hes locked up, Tmac did it just about every year. His best defensive series was against Big Dog and Dirk but hes had multiple moments I can recall easily. With Wade, dude was usually sheltered from the job until Bron came, before that it was always Posey, Jones, Butler, Shandon, GP, Marion etc... checking the best.

Chronz
09-13-2016, 09:01 PM
Wade, we already know he can led a franchise to a title as the man.

Easily the worst argument used in this thread.

JasonJohnHorn
09-13-2016, 09:50 PM
They guy who stayed healthy and won rings, or the guy who didn't and didn't?

Hmm... tough question.

Chronz
09-13-2016, 10:00 PM
They guy who stayed healthy and won rings, or the guy who didn't and didn't?

Hmm... tough question.

Wade stayed healthy? He was injured in College, injured in his first year with Shaq when they should have beaten the Pistons, injured when he was defending the title in 07, the injuries took him out for basically a full year thereafter (when people questioned his career as a star) came back and had his peak seasons dragging bums and Bron that first year, then he was hurt every year thereafter come playoffs despite Bron carrying the load and him taking games off to rest.

Hes healthier than Tmac but if those injuries are constant, you're starting your team with a guy with a truly inconsistent history of health. Tmac wasn't much different but his skillset was such that it hindered him less and come playoffs, he absolutely raised his game.

And rings matter but its not exactly unheard of for inferior winners to be superior players so thats not going to sway anyone. Its not like we all have our list of players perfectly aligned by championships won.

Dade County
09-13-2016, 11:32 PM
In D Wade's prime, his attacking ability only comes 2nd to Jordan.

T Mac in his prime, was so F'in nice... Nice jumper, could finish with the best of them at the rim & he also didn't take **** from no one.

Both players had bad luck when it came to staying healthy. But of course I am going to go with D Wade, the way that he played just crippled the other teams defense because of the super star foul call that Jordan/Stern created.

Dade County
09-13-2016, 11:32 PM
Nice thread topic by the way Op.

YAALREADYKNO
09-14-2016, 12:34 AM
Tmac's more talented than Wade and had the better all around skill set but Wade came in as a rookie and took the heat to the playoffs, beat the Hornets, and took a tough *** Indiana Pacers team to 6 games.
But then again Tmac's skill set was just too great to ignore. This is probably the toughest one out of the 3. (Kidd/Nash, Webber/Stoudamire)

JordansBulls
09-14-2016, 08:43 PM
Easily the worst argument used in this thread.
How so? You know I am a Tmac fan, only have a few jersey's of MJ and Tmac is another I have.

xbrackattackx
09-14-2016, 08:58 PM
If I was a GM I take Mcgrady over Wade all day. Mcgrady was a 18 year old dripping with Potenial. And Wade was a senior coming in. You pretty much got what you got, which wasn't a bad thing.

IKnowHoops
09-14-2016, 09:17 PM
Prolly Wade but I'd LOVE to see all the current gen of wings show the skillset to thrive in the most defensively dominant era in NBA history. Its kind of sad that some of you boil down the mans entire career to "that 1" season, the guy finished his career with like the 9th most All-NBA selections or something.

Ill argue Tmac for one reason, its building from scratch and I fancy myself a great 2K GM so I would build around him abit differently, Im not inheriting all the teammates that helped or held them back. Instead of Wade having Shaq and Bron, imagine him with Grant Hill on the sidelines.

I think Tmac is the easier player to build around because of his advanced skill set.


Its due to his offensive efficiency and superb defense. Hard to hate on a guy who posts historic stats


I dont believe he was better on defense and hes a better playmaker but I dont think hes a better passer. Wade is godly at his peak so we have to nit pick but his lack of range, inferior rebounding and turn over prone game kind of stunt that all-aroundness. Statistics are always kept with the league in mind, Peak v Peak, the reason Wade sports inferior PER numbers despite this superior scoring efficiency is because hes always played in the no-HC era. What do you think is more impressive, Tmac sporting an equal per possession efficiency in a significantly tougher defensive era or Wade matching him as a slasher in the newer NBA? Career wise you're prolly right tho

Damn, not one mention of the playoffs. If I could hang my hat on these stats when arguing Drob I'd own the world. SMH.

IKnowHoops
09-14-2016, 09:21 PM
Prolly Wade but I'd LOVE to see all the current gen of wings show the skillset to thrive in the most defensively dominant era in NBA history. Its kind of sad that some of you boil down the mans entire career to "that 1" season, the guy finished his career with like the 9th most All-NBA selections or something.

Ill argue Tmac for one reason, its building from scratch and I fancy myself a great 2K GM so I would build around him abit differently, Im not inheriting all the teammates that helped or held them back. Instead of Wade having Shaq and Bron, imagine him with Grant Hill on the sidelines.

I think Tmac is the easier player to build around because of his advanced skill set.


Its due to his offensive efficiency and superb defense. Hard to hate on a guy who posts historic stats


I dont believe he was better on defense and hes a better playmaker but I dont think hes a better passer. Wade is godly at his peak so we have to nit pick but his lack of range, inferior rebounding and turn over prone game kind of stunt that all-aroundness. Statistics are always kept with the league in mind, Peak v Peak, the reason Wade sports inferior PER numbers despite this superior scoring efficiency is because hes always played in the no-HC era. What do you think is more impressive, Tmac sporting an equal per possession efficiency in a significantly tougher defensive era or Wade matching him as a slasher in the newer NBA? Career wise you're prolly right tho

Damn, not one mention of the playoffs. If I could hang my hat on these stats when arguing Drob I'd own the world. SMH. Can you argue against yourself for Drob using this criteria and ignore playoff success while highlighting the weak teammates Drob had like you did for Tmac.

IKnowHoops
09-14-2016, 09:26 PM
Wade stayed healthy? He was injured in College, injured in his first year with Shaq when they should have beaten the Pistons, injured when he was defending the title in 07, the injuries took him out for basically a full year thereafter (when people questioned his career as a star) came back and had his peak seasons dragging bums and Bron that first year, then he was hurt every year thereafter come playoffs despite Bron carrying the load and him taking games off to rest.

Hes healthier than Tmac but if those injuries are constant, you're starting your team with a guy with a truly inconsistent history of health. Tmac wasn't much different but his skillset was such that it hindered him less and come playoffs, he absolutely raised his game.

And rings matter but its not exactly unheard of for inferior winners to be superior players so thats not going to sway anyone. Its not like we all have our list of players perfectly aligned by championships won.

Not when it mattered, he shrank towards the end of most series, and that is largely why he never advanced. He was also pretty inefficient during the majority of those series.

Chronz
09-15-2016, 12:36 AM
Damn, not one mention of the playoffs. If I could hang my hat on these stats when arguing Drob I'd own the world. SMH. Can you argue against yourself for Drob using this criteria and ignore playoff success while highlighting the weak teammates Drob had like you did for Tmac.
Im not seeing the relevance of many of your bolds, Im responding to statistical critiques, it doesn't mean Im hanging my hat on them alone. And I did bring up the playoffs, I've asked about Wade's greatest defensive series and just who exactly he was locking up, the reason I ask is because we're speaking about his defensive impact and because I can recite Tmac's defensive success with memory (given how few series hes participated I understand its not that hard to remember) but seriously, the only time I vividly remember Wade guarding the best players was when Bron came over and he checked Rose for 3 quarters and even then all people talked about was LeBrons D in the 4th. I also compared their success/production when BOTH were on bad teams so yeah, I actually look at both sides.

You have to understand this is all relative, you expect me to believe D-Rob was better than Duncan when I already know Duncan brought the fury FAR more often even in defeat when he didn't have the horses. You keep saying how D-Rob shouldn't be expected to win but he should be expected to perform, I've seen Hakeem lose in the first round, the difference is the historical stats Dream could post for his series that D-Rob simply never could.

Its funny, I just finished rewatching his G7 against the more talented Blazers and they speak about how important it is to find D-Rob on the move as opposed to a set post up which reminded me of the GS series where the commentators talk about how quietly David was getting his points. Like a putback here, a dump off there but not really dictating the flow of the game and its partly why his team was upset. Anyways, back to G7, his teammates had carried him all game, come 4th quarter hes scored like 9PTS total to this point. Then he has his best stretch and gets a few transition buckets/dump offs and even hits a big turnaround but watching this game really highlighted his lack of a dominant go-to low post game and a mediocre floor game (poor by elite standards). The guy couldn't make himself available on the low blocks as he seemed to lack the strength, or lower center of gravity, impossible to tell.
It got to the point where the team started running more plays for everyone but him. I know its just one game and he had a pretty great playoff run overall but I want to show you a single clip and you tell me if he misses the open man on this double team.

https://youtu.be/QDzD1nNKZpk?t=1h46m14s

It was a pivotal moment in the game after they had lost their biggest lead, they double D-Rob and Willie Anderson is wide open near the rim as a result. To me thats an easy/instinctive pass to make if the double comes so quickly instead he throws the ball to a covered man and the team turns it over trying to take advantage of a scrambled defense. Anyways, just curious what you think of that single play, not that it defines anything.

Chronz
09-15-2016, 01:21 AM
Not when it mattered, he shrank towards the end of most series, and that is largely why he never advanced. He was also pretty inefficient during the majority of those series.
LOL, far from it. It had LARGELY to do with his teammates vs comp, look at Wade in the same situation, am I suppose to be more impressed that he was less productive and getting eliminated in less games?