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View Full Version : Would Kawhi be a better fit in GSW than KD?



JasonJohnHorn
08-30-2016, 05:53 PM
Obviously KD is the better player. But I wonder if having 3 guys on the same team who are all good enough to lead the league in scoring (Curry, KD, and Klay-though some might debate the last one) is a good idea. Kawhi, though not a high volume scorer like KD, can shoot the 3-ball very well, but is a juggernaut on defense. So he wouldn't take as a many shots away from Curry and Klay, and would turn up the defense on the other end of the court. Now KD holds his own defensively, but he's no Kawhi.

Chemistry wise, and in terms of what the team needs, do you think Kawhi might be a better fit? Might this even be a possible trade should chemistry issues arise in Goldenstate?



Thoughts?

tredigs
08-30-2016, 06:13 PM
Chemistry wise he probably would be, but I'd still probably rather have KD for the fact that he's one of the few players in the league who can just catch fire and win you a playoff game on his back. With Klay and Curry being two other guys who can pull that off, it's just a nightmare having to fade all three every single night.

IKnowHoops
08-30-2016, 07:02 PM
Yeah I'd also stick with KD. I'd trade Klay for Leonard in a heartbeat though.

s3antana5757
08-30-2016, 07:57 PM
I firmly believe that KD is the perfect fit for GS. Not to take anything away from Leonard, but the shooting ability of those 3 in the back court is unprecedented. They should be fine defensively, especially when you add in Draymond and all he does.

I'd also trade Klay for Leonard though.

Shammyguy3
08-30-2016, 08:26 PM
I'm gonna say yes. Why? It is not because I think Kawhi is better than Durant (however, I think that is totally reasonable). It has to do with this

Curry - 32.6usg%
Thompson - 26.3usg%
Green - 18.8usg%

That's similar to Miami's Lebron (31.1%), Wade (30.2%), Bosh (23.2%). Now, we're adding another crazy high usage player in Durant (career 30.5%). Leonard the last couple years has been at 24.5%. I think it would be easier to fit Leonard into the mix, especially considering he's a career 39.1% shooter from deep which is on par with Durant's rate (although not volume).

Leonard's the better defender, an equal rebounder, and not quite the passer that Durant is. However, Leonard wouldn't need to worry about the passing so much because he's never had to facilitate, so it would be a seamless transition. Durant will have to accommodate his playing style entirely, less shooting and ball-handling.


If Durant doesn't accommodate, then we take away Draymond Green's tremendous impact in ball-handling situations.

I don't think Durant vs Kawhi changes the record in this hypothetical, nor the end result. But i think Kawhi would fit easier.

IndyRealist
08-30-2016, 08:33 PM
I think their defense takes a significant hit without Barnes and Bogut, and Igoudala being a year older. There's diminishing returns on offense, because there simply aren't enough shots to go around.

europagnpilgrim
08-30-2016, 09:05 PM
In the type of style/offense Warriors run they like to strike quick/fast/early and that seems to fit KD more better who is an assassin when it comes to getting buckets in a hurry, and all by default everybody will take a hit usage wise but will reap the benefits of having easier looks with Curry-Klay-KD who all can draw a double which keeps the defense on its toes and scrambling and somebody is always open like last year with Barnes and Green who did whatever he wanted since all the attention was on Klay-Curry coming off screens, KD wont miss those wide open 3's like Barnes and he can also get to the bucket and finish better also

Leonard no doubt is a better team-individual defender but KD is who I would prefer to roll with if I had to choose between the two, on any team for that matter, defense is nice but buckets-offense wins games/ships regardless how the media feeds you the nonsense about defense wins ships

JordansBulls
08-30-2016, 09:26 PM
Only because he can lock up Lebron.

mavwar53
08-30-2016, 09:54 PM
As of right now yes because the defense is needed more than the offense, but I think the Warriors staff and players could help Durant become a much better defender, not an All defensive team kind of guy, but above average and able to use his length much better.

mrblisterdundee
08-30-2016, 11:00 PM
Yeah I'd also stick with KD. I'd trade Klay for Leonard in a heartbeat though.

Who the hell would ever make that trade? Do you just like contradicting your profile name?

mrblisterdundee
08-30-2016, 11:05 PM
I think Kawhi Leonard would be a better fit. With him, Draymond Green and Klay Thompson, you have the best perimeter defense in the league and two players who can guard all five positions. And it's not like Leonard can't drill threes, move the ball and score 20 a game, which is all you need him to do.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 08:27 AM
Who the hell would ever make that trade? Do you just like contradicting your profile name?

Easy there big shooter.

Scoots
08-31-2016, 09:40 AM
I think KD is the better fit because the best inside iso scorer on the Warriors was Shaun Livingston ... by far the best. KD gives the Warriors their only real post option, a guy who means defenses will have to cover inside AND outside. Kawhi would fit great too, but on a team that focuses more on O than D the better offensive player makes sense.

ewing
08-31-2016, 09:41 AM
Only because he can lock up Lebron.

^^^ this

JasonJohnHorn
08-31-2016, 10:00 AM
Only because he can lock up Lebron.

This is a great point. And he can also give KD a lot of trouble.

I think a KD/Kawhi trade would make both teams better.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2016, 10:08 AM
Yes, he is a better fit for what they eventually meet in the finals, LeBron James.

He doesn't "lock him up", give me a break, but he makes life much more difficult

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=LeBron+James&player_id1_select=LeBron+James&player_id1=jamesle01&hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2_select=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2=leonaka01

kdspurman
08-31-2016, 10:45 AM
Yes, he is a better fit for what they eventually meet in the finals, LeBron James.

He doesn't "lock him up", give me a break, but he makes life much more difficult

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=LeBron+James&player_id1_select=LeBron+James&player_id1=jamesle01&hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2_select=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id2=leonaka01

He definitely does make it difficult for Lebron. But even those stats are deceiving, cause it specify whether Kawhi was guarding him or not. (Green/Diaw each got their share of time guarding him too) What he did very well was prevent Lebron from even getting the ball or forcing him to pass

Hawkeye15
08-31-2016, 10:55 AM
He definitely does make it difficult for Lebron. But even those stats are deceiving, cause it specify whether Kawhi was guarding him or not. (Green/Diaw each got their share of time guarding him too) What he did very well was prevent Lebron from even getting the ball or forcing him to pass

oh the stats need perspective, especially in the 2014 finals. LeBron got a lot of numbers when the game was already over.

But nobody can "lock" LeBron up. KL does indeed make it much more difficult, because he can crowd LeBron's drive space, and deny him the ball better than anyone I have seen, and is strong enough to not get brushed away. He is also long, and can impact passing lanes.

da ThRONe
08-31-2016, 11:01 AM
Call me crazy but I don't think Kawhi is that far behind Durant. I think he's definitely a better fit for GS. I'm really starting to have some concerns about this superteam. Warriors players are going to have to drastically change their play styles for this to work. GS has taken a hit to it's defense and flexible for more scoring something that was never an issue.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2016, 11:03 AM
Call me crazy but I don't think Kawhi is that far behind Durant. I think he's definitely a better fit for GS. I'm really starting to have some concerns about this superteam. Warriors players are going to have to drastically change their play styles for this to work. GS has taken a hit to it's defense and flexible for more scoring something that was never an issue.


I just want to see Green have to be option #1 and carry a team offensively for some time, before I throw him with the elite of the elite.

da ThRONe
08-31-2016, 11:10 AM
I just want to see Green have to be option #1 and carry a team offensively for some time, before I throw him with the elite of the elite.

I hate to say it because I Iove what Green brings to a team but he's vastly overrated. Nothing about his game so far makes me believe he can be "that guy" for a playoff team let alone a contender.

Scoots
08-31-2016, 11:40 AM
I just want to see Green have to be option #1 and carry a team offensively for some time, before I throw him with the elite of the elite.

I'm a big fan of Draymond, but he will NEVER carry a team. Last year he learned how to make a layup for the first time. As a rookie I think he shot like 18% from 3-10' from the rim and now it's above 40%. He's a LONG LONG LONG way from carrying anything offensively.

But, he works extremely hard and thinks basketball at the very top level, at a LeBron level.

I have no problem calling Green one of the top 10 players in the NBA, but he's not a #1 on a team.

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 11:46 AM
Warriors would probably be better just for fit purposes. Packing all these high USG% players together is detrimental to their maximum output. One possession is one possession regardless of how good you are. Kawhi's ability to play off-ball and defend coupled with Draymond Green? That's two back-to-back 1a/1b DPOY on the same team.

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 11:47 AM
Green's a system player. Not everyone can dominate and carry a team. Nothing wrong with it because players like him are just as valuable. Low USG%, makes the right plays, elite defensively. Those are tough to find.

IndyRealist
08-31-2016, 11:48 AM
I think KD is the better fit because the best inside iso scorer on the Warriors was Shaun Livingston ... by far the best. KD gives the Warriors their only real post option, a guy who means defenses will have to cover inside AND outside. Kawhi would fit great too, but on a team that focuses more on O than D the better offensive player makes sense.

I don't think it's fair to say they focus more on offense than defense. Last year they were 3rd Drtg, the year before they were 1st. FANS focus more on offense, but the team is pretty well balanced. Or was before they let half their rotation go this summer.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2016, 11:51 AM
I hate to say it because I Iove what Green brings to a team but he's vastly overrated. Nothing about his game so far makes me believe he can be "that guy" for a playoff team let alone a contender.


I'm a big fan of Draymond, but he will NEVER carry a team. Last year he learned how to make a layup for the first time. As a rookie I think he shot like 18% from 3-10' from the rim and now it's above 40%. He's a LONG LONG LONG way from carrying anything offensively.

But, he works extremely hard and thinks basketball at the very top level, at a LeBron level.

I have no problem calling Green one of the top 10 players in the NBA, but he's not a #1 on a team.

crap, I meant KL, not sure why I typed Green...

however I agree with both of you. Green is not a #1, but he is ideal for a contender as a core player.

JAZZNC
08-31-2016, 12:08 PM
I'm a big fan of Draymond, but he will NEVER carry a team. Last year he learned how to make a layup for the first time. As a rookie I think he shot like 18% from 3-10' from the rim and now it's above 40%. He's a LONG LONG LONG way from carrying anything offensively.

But, he works extremely hard and thinks basketball at the very top level, at a LeBron level.

I have no problem calling Green one of the top 10 players in the NBA, but he's not a #1 on a team.

That's why I think it's a complete joke that he's considered a top 10 player in the league. If he is your best player you ain't making the playoffs. He is Lance Stephenson in a much better situation with really good players/coaching to keep him somewhat under control. Dude is completely bat **** crazy and that WILL rear its ugly head at some point. He has to be the most overrated guy in the league right now. I literally can't wait till he has to be "The guy"......

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 12:19 PM
That's why I think it's a complete joke that he's considered a top 10 player in the league. If he is your best player you ain't making the playoffs. He is Lance Stephenson in a much better situation with really good players/coaching to keep him somewhat under control. Dude is completely bat **** crazy and that WILL rear its ugly head at some point. He has to be the most overrated guy in the league right now. I literally can't wait till he has to be "The guy"......

How many players can actually lead you to the playoffs regardless of team?

1) LeBron
2) KD
3) Curry
4) MAYBE Westbrook (that one season he didn't)
5) CP3?
6) Harden
7) Kawhi? (not sure yet)
8) Anthony Davis (injury prone but has the talent)
9) Paul George
10) ???????

There aren't many players who can. For what Draymond brings to that team in being a triple double threat and 2nd in DPOY for two years in a row (should have won it when Kawhi was out for many games), he's an essential to championship contenders. He's that one player Cleveland wants and would elevate their team to probably the best team in the NBA right now. Yes, he's a system player but who cares? He makes nearly all teams better and that's a fact.

PowerHouse
08-31-2016, 12:22 PM
But is Leonard tall enough to play the 4? I've heard thats where GS wants to put Durant.

mrblisterdundee
08-31-2016, 12:22 PM
Easy there big shooter.

Why don't you answer my question? How exactly in your head does it make sense to trade Klay Thompson straight up for Kawhi Leonard, when any logical NBA fan knows Leonard is significantly much more valuable.

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 12:24 PM
Why don't you answer my question? How exactly in your head does it make sense to trade Klay Thompson straight up for Kawhi Leonard, when any logical NBA fan knows Leonard is significantly much more valuable.

He's just stating it casually. There's no need for you to be that upset.

da ThRONe
08-31-2016, 01:08 PM
crap, I meant KL, not sure why I typed Green...

however I agree with both of you. Green is not a #1, but he is ideal for a contender as a core player.

I think what Leonard did this season was carry the team as the #1 option. LaMarcus got his looks, but Kawhi was clearly the "man" on offense.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2016, 01:13 PM
I think what Leonard did this season was carry the team as the #1 option. LaMarcus got his looks, but Kawhi was clearly the "man" on offense.

I am still not convinced KL can take a game over with his offensive ability. But then again, the Spurs are such a team it might be hard to identify when guys are doing it.

Giannis94
08-31-2016, 01:21 PM
Giannis is a better fit. Better than both of the guys listed in the title and still gets no love. SMH.

JAZZNC
08-31-2016, 01:21 PM
How many players can actually lead you to the playoffs regardless of team?

1) LeBron
2) KD
3) Curry
4) MAYBE Westbrook (that one season he didn't)
5) CP3?
6) Harden
7) Kawhi? (not sure yet)
8) Anthony Davis (injury prone but has the talent)
9) Paul George
10) ???????

There aren't many players who can. For what Draymond brings to that team in being a triple double threat and 2nd in DPOY for two years in a row (should have won it when Kawhi was out for many games), he's an essential to championship contenders. He's that one player Cleveland wants and would elevate their team to probably the best team in the NBA right now. Yes, he's a system player but who cares? He makes nearly all teams better and that's a fact.
Did you see that pile of crap that Lillard drug to the second round? How about Griffin?

And how many assists does he NOT get if he's not passing to the best shooting back court in NBA history? How many wide *** open looks does he NOT get if he's not playing with the best shooting back court in the history of the NBA? Dude can't keep players with size off the glass, just look at this past years finals and WCF. Would he look as good handling the ball if guys were even remotely concerned with him offensively? I just don't consider a 3rd or 4th option offensively a top 10 player. He's a talent but I just feel like he is vastly overrated because of his situation. Yes, he's a great addition to a contender, but he doesn't make a team a contender. You need a damn squad first and then you add a guy like Draymond to play d and hit open shots.

kdspurman
08-31-2016, 01:23 PM
I am still not convinced KL can take a game over with his offensive ability. But then again, the Spurs are such a team it might be hard to identify when guys are doing it.

He has many times over the past year or so

da ThRONe
08-31-2016, 01:32 PM
Did you see that pile of crap that Lillard drug to the second round? How about Griffin?

And how many assists does he NOT get if he's not passing to the best shooting back court in NBA history? How many wide *** open looks does he NOT get if he's not playing with the best shooting back court in the history of the NBA? Dude can't keep players with size off the glass, just look at this past years finals and WCF. Would he look as good handling the ball if guys were even remotely concerned with him offensively? I just don't consider a 3rd or 4th option offensively a top 10 player. He's a talent but I just feel like he is vastly overrated because of his situation. Yes, he's a great addition to a contender, but he doesn't make a team a contender. You need a damn squad first and then you add a guy like Draymond to play d and hit open shots.

Yeah Lillard and Griffin should be on that list. Not sure how Anthony Davis makes it. In 4 years 1 post season and that was because Dragic forced Phoenix to blow up their team mid season, Durant was injured, and Tyreke Evans went crazy and we still barely got in.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 01:41 PM
crap, I meant KL, not sure why I typed Green...

however I agree with both of you. Green is not a #1, but he is ideal for a contender as a core player.

I really didnt think you were talking about Draymond. I thought you were talking about Leonard, but maybe Danny Green got in your head. I knew you already knew Draymond isn't carrying a team offensively like that.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 01:43 PM
He's just stating it casually. There's no need for you to be that upset.

Kids got a rocket up his a-- for no apparent reason.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 01:51 PM
Why don't you answer my question? How exactly in your head does it make sense to trade Klay Thompson straight up for Kawhi Leonard, when any logical NBA fan knows Leonard is significantly much more valuable.

I would say that its 50/50 that GS would make that trade. I'd also suspect that 50% of there fans would not want to make that trade. Klay does have the all-time record for points in a quarter and will probably go down as a top three 3pt shooter of all time. Klay gets crazy crazy hot, and the floor spacing he gives is something that only he and Curry can replicate at this time. Why so serious though? The next poster after me said the exact same thing. Get a grip buddy.

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 02:21 PM
Did you see that pile of crap that Lillard drug to the second round? How about Griffin?

And how many assists does he NOT get if he's not passing to the best shooting back court in NBA history? How many wide *** open looks does he NOT get if he's not playing with the best shooting back court in the history of the NBA? Dude can't keep players with size off the glass, just look at this past years finals and WCF. Would he look as good handling the ball if guys were even remotely concerned with him offensively? I just don't consider a 3rd or 4th option offensively a top 10 player. He's a talent but I just feel like he is vastly overrated because of his situation. Yes, he's a great addition to a contender, but he doesn't make a team a contender. You need a damn squad first and then you add a guy like Draymond to play d and hit open shots.

You're telling me Lillard and Griffin can take any team to the playoffs? Give me a break, dude. They are great players but top ten is reserved for the elite players and you won't find many putting either of those guys in the top ten. Pile of crap? Sorry but Lillard had a terrible series so I can't for the life of me understand your assumption that he played with a pile of crap when he played like doodoo that series.

My argument isn't that Draymond CAN be the first option on a team. I said he wasn't and he will never be. I never said he can make any team a contender and listed players who have that potential. There are realistically only five to ten guys capable of doing that. What Draymond provides is the next step to being championship contenders. That's his value and that's what he is good at. So if you can't equate that to being the tenth best player in the world, then I don't know what to tell you. I can guarantee you that any elite team would love to have Draymond as their PF. He's a difference-maker. Sorry you can't see that.

Shammyguy3
08-31-2016, 02:30 PM
Giannis is a better fit. Better than both of the guys listed in the title and still gets no love. SMH.

i love your love for Giannis :laugh2: i hope he explodes this year just to see more of your posts


You're telling me Lillard and Griffin can take any team to the playoffs? Give me a break, dude. They are great players but top ten is reserved for the elite players and you won't find many putting either of those guys in the top ten. Pile of crap? Sorry but Lillard had a terrible series so I can't for the life of me understand your assumption that he played with a pile of crap when he played like doodoo that series.

My argument isn't that Draymond CAN be the first option on a team. I said he wasn't and he will never be. I never said he can make any team a contender and listed players who have that potential. There are realistically only five to ten guys capable of doing that. What Draymond provides is the next step to being championship contenders. That's his value and that's what he is good at. So if you can't equate that to being the tenth best player in the world, then I don't know what to tell you. I can guarantee you that any elite team would love to have Draymond as their PF. He's a difference-maker. Sorry you can't see that.

I think offensive output is still grossly overvalued. For example, we all know those star players that can score 30 a game (insert Allen Iverson), but if that is all they are doing it isn't that valuable. If that player also facilitates, his value explodes (insert James Harden). If a player cannot score 30 a game, but can rebound/defend/facilitate, how is that not as valuable as someone that simply shoots the ball?


Draymond Green cannot be an offensive focal point when it comes to scoring, but he absolutely can run a good offense (evidence by his pick & roll/pop game and his high assist numbers); when you add his versality and defense, and then add in the mismatches he provides, his value is so high.


With a player like Lebron, he doesn't need another elite talent to win. With a player like Anthony Davis, he does need a lot of talent to make up for the gap. Draymond Green is close to Anthony Davis, in that he needs other high quality players to make his team great.

If you had a team of
Goran Dragic
Danny Green
Jimmy Butler
Draymond Green
Marcin Gortat

I think that team is a contender, and it's arguable that Draymond Green is the best player

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 02:42 PM
i love your love for Giannis :laugh2: i hope he explodes this year just to see more of your posts



I think offensive output is still grossly overvalued. For example, we all know those star players that can score 30 a game (insert Allen Iverson), but if that is all they are doing it isn't that valuable. If that player also facilitates, his value explodes (insert James Harden). If a player cannot score 30 a game, but can rebound/defend/facilitate, how is that not as valuable as someone that simply shoots the ball?


Draymond Green cannot be an offensive focal point when it comes to scoring, but he absolutely can run a good offense (evidence by his pick & roll/pop game and his high assist numbers); when you add his versality and defense, and then add in the mismatches he provides, his value is so high.


With a player like Lebron, he doesn't need another elite talent to win. With a player like Anthony Davis, he does need a lot of talent to make up for the gap. Draymond Green is close to Anthony Davis, in that he needs other high quality players to make his team great.

If you had a team of
Goran Dragic
Danny Green
Jimmy Butler
Draymond Green
Marcin Gortat

I think that team is a contender, and it's arguable that Draymond Green is the best player

I don't know why it's such a tough subject to grasp, though. Kevin Love is probably a better player if you stick him on a team to be the first option but Draymond Green is a better player if you stick him on a team as a second/third option. Neither though, are great first option players. So I'd rather have the guy who plays the second/third option role behind someone who can legitimately play the first option role.

europagnpilgrim
08-31-2016, 02:56 PM
Only because he can lock up Lebron.

but he wont and cant attack Lebron like KD could and would, KD would make Lebron spend way more energy on the that side of the ball while Lebron could more so coast on the defensive end on Kawhi outside of a few times where Leonard may look to attack but KD is always in attack mode and a threat from anywhere within the offense which would keep Lebron on his A game at all times and we all know Lebron likes to coast at times during games

europagnpilgrim
08-31-2016, 03:02 PM
i love your love for Giannis :laugh2: i hope he explodes this year just to see more of your posts



I think offensive output is still grossly overvalued. For example, we all know those star players that can score 30 a game (insert Allen Iverson), but if that is all they are doing it isn't that valuable. If that player also facilitates, his value explodes (insert James Harden). If a player cannot score 30 a game, but can rebound/defend/facilitate, how is that not as valuable as someone that simply shoots the ball?


Draymond Green cannot be an offensive focal point when it comes to scoring, but he absolutely can run a good offense (evidence by his pick & roll/pop game and his high assist numbers); when you add his versality and defense, and then add in the mismatches he provides, his value is so high.


With a player like Lebron, he doesn't need another elite talent to win. With a player like Anthony Davis, he does need a lot of talent to make up for the gap. Draymond Green is close to Anthony Davis, in that he needs other high quality players to make his team great.

If you had a team of
Goran Dragic
Danny Green
Jimmy Butler
Draymond Green
Marcin Gortat

I think that team is a contender, and it's arguable that Draymond Green is the best player

do yourself a favor and go look at those players who played with The Answer pre Philly stats and then you will see his true value

from E Snow to A Mckie to K Thomas to Dalambert and even Iggy best scoring seasons came with playing on that squad with The Answer, its only so much you can do to make 3ppg career scorers more valuable than that, all had career years and got paid and I bet none of those players mentioned rank in yours or any sane person list of lets say top 100 best all time to ever step on the hardwood

scoring 30ppg for the best case of the team trying to win or trying to get 30ppg to prove that you are capable(rather win or lose) are two diff. scenarios

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 03:13 PM
do yourself a favor and go look at those players who played with The Answer pre Philly stats and then you will see his true value

from E Snow to A Mckie to K Thomas to Dalambert and even Iggy best scoring seasons came with playing on that squad with The Answer, its only so much you can do to make 3ppg career scorers more valuable than that, all had career years and got paid and I bet none of those players mentioned rank in yours or any sane person list of lets say top 100 best all time to ever step on the hardwood

scoring 30ppg for the best case of the team trying to win or trying to get 30ppg to prove that you are capable(rather win or lose) are two diff. scenarios

Lots of players today can probably score 30 PPG with 28 SHOTS per game but it was counterproductive to the Sixers success. Sixers during AI's reign were winning games due to their defense and not necessarily AI's offense. Again, not difficult to score 30 PPG when you're taking 28 shots per game. That's terrible efficiency. Curry scores 30 on 20 shots. Give him 8 more shots and he'll likely be at the 40 points per game average at the least. That Sixers team was just poorly designed. Too much focus on one guy dominating the ball while having the rest of the team make up for it defensively. Compare that with the Spurs.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 03:21 PM
Lots of players today can probably score 30 PPG with 28 SHOTS per game but it was counterproductive to the Sixers success. Sixers during AI's reign were winning games due to their defense and not necessarily AI's offense. Again, not difficult to score 30 PPG when you're taking 28 shots per game. That's terrible efficiency. Curry scores 30 on 20 shots. Give him 8 more shots and he'll likely be at the 40 points per game average at the least. That Sixers team was just poorly designed. Too much focus on one guy dominating the ball while having the rest of the team make up for it defensively. Compare that with the Spurs.

To be fair he also scored 33 on 25 shots while dishing 7.5 asst a game. Something Kobe could never do.

Scoots
08-31-2016, 03:48 PM
I don't think it's fair to say they focus more on offense than defense. Last year they were 3rd Drtg, the year before they were 1st. FANS focus more on offense, but the team is pretty well balanced. Or was before they let half their rotation go this summer.

I think their D was still good, but the offense, while explosive, let them down too often. So they went into this offseason looking for offense rather than defense.

Scoots
08-31-2016, 03:56 PM
That's why I think it's a complete joke that he's considered a top 10 player in the league. If he is your best player you ain't making the playoffs. He is Lance Stephenson in a much better situation with really good players/coaching to keep him somewhat under control. Dude is completely bat **** crazy and that WILL rear its ugly head at some point. He has to be the most overrated guy in the league right now. I literally can't wait till he has to be "The guy"......

Not that it's much of a sample size, but in the game last year when Curry got hurt and Barnes and Ezeli were out Draymond got 29 pts (on 16 shots), 17 rebs, 14 ast, 4 stl. I don't think anybody expected it, but what Green does well is find what needs to be done and do that. He's an incredible player ... but he's never going to look particularly good. He's top 10 ... but he's never going to get into the top 5.

JAZZNC
08-31-2016, 04:08 PM
You're telling me Lillard and Griffin can take any team to the playoffs? Give me a break, dude. They are great players but top ten is reserved for the elite players and you won't find many putting either of those guys in the top ten. Pile of crap? Sorry but Lillard had a terrible series so I can't for the life of me understand your assumption that he played with a pile of crap when he played like doodoo that series.

My argument isn't that Draymond CAN be the first option on a team. I said he wasn't and he will never be. I never said he can make any team a contender and listed players who have that potential. There are realistically only five to ten guys capable of doing that. What Draymond provides is the next step to being championship contenders. That's his value and that's what he is good at. So if you can't equate that to being the tenth best player in the world, then I don't know what to tell you. I can guarantee you that any elite team would love to have Draymond as their PF. He's a difference-maker. Sorry you can't see that.

Dude, can you even read? Where did I say "any team"? I'll wait. And yes Lillard had a crap team and took them to the playoffs (unless you think the likes of Aminu/Plumlee are anything more than average). And if you don't think that a healthy Griffin is a better player than Green I have no idea what to tell you.

You could actually try to answer any of my questions regarding his perfect situation. And seriously what am I saying that you aren't? No kidding he makes most teams better, it doesn't take rocket surgeon to figure that out! He's a great addition to a really good team, he has obvious talent, he's good defensively, but he can't lead a team and if he is your best player you aren't contending for anything other than a first round exit. I think he's overrated and you don't, pretty much as simple as that.

You said it yourself, he needs an elite team to be effective and that to me precludes you from being a top 10 player. Sorry you can't see that.

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 04:20 PM
Dude, can you even read? Where did I say "any team"? I'll wait. And yes Lillard had a crap team and took them to the playoffs (unless you think the likes of Aminu/Plumlee are anything more than average). And if you don't think that a healthy Griffin is a better player than Green I have no idea what to tell you.

You could actually try to answer any of my questions regarding his perfect situation. And seriously what am I saying that you aren't? No kidding he makes most teams better, it doesn't take rocket surgeon to figure that out! He's a great addition to a really good team, he has obvious talent, he's good defensively, but he can't lead a team and if he is your best player you aren't contending for anything other than a first round exit. I think he's overrated and you don't, pretty much as simple as that.

You said it yourself, he needs an elite team to be effective and that to me precludes you from being a top 10 player. Sorry you can't see that.

So why are you responding to me with the Lillard situation when the subject of Lillard being able to carry any team is the discussion? I said he needs to be in a secondary role to excel. By your logic, Nick Young is better than Green because he can be effective with or without an elite team. He can be effective as a first option but his game takes a huge step when he isn't. Some players work that way. Joakim Noah ring a bell to you? He's not a first option player but was the best player for the Bulls for a year or two. Was voted as a top ten player those two years. What's your argument against Noah?

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 04:27 PM
To be fair he also scored 33 on 25 shots while dishing 7.5 asst a game. Something Kobe could never do.

Something lots of players haven't done:

LeBron
Wade
Durant
Curry
McGrady

I'm not saying Iverson wasn't great but the majority of his career, he had the ultimate green light to stack up his scoring numbers. I don't like to look at assists emptily because you'll rack assists up if you have the ball more. His assist to turnover ratio is incredibly pathetic throughout his career. And yeah, you can compare Westbrook to Iverson in terms of heart but Westbrook does EVERYTHING on the court. Allen Iverson does one thing: Score.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 05:02 PM
Something lots of players haven't done:

LeBron
Wade
Durant
Curry
McGrady

I'm not saying Iverson wasn't great but the majority of his career, he had the ultimate green light to stack up his scoring numbers. I don't like to look at assists emptily because you'll rack assists up if you have the ball more. His assist to turnover ratio is incredibly pathetic throughout his career. And yeah, you can compare Westbrook to Iverson in terms of heart but Westbrook does EVERYTHING on the court. Allen Iverson does one thing: Score.

I'll tell you what, the way Curry has been shut down in the finals, you could not stop AI from getting buckets. To fast, to quick and to high a motor. 41% from the field isn't great, but no matter what kind of D you threw at him, you could not stop him from getting 35pts on 41% if he wanted to get that. He averaged 33 on 44% for a season. Dude was 5'11. You could not clamp him up no matter how hard you tried. You could not shut him down. He was like Barry Sanders on the b-ball court.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 05:04 PM
Jordan/Kobe/Lebron/Tmac all had the same green light Ivo had. Plus he got 7.5 assists. Thats still very good, and more than most of those guys who had the same light, with worse finishers on his team.

mrblisterdundee
08-31-2016, 07:56 PM
I would say that its 50/50 that GS would make that trade. I'd also suspect that 50% of there fans would not want to make that trade. Klay does have the all-time record for points in a quarter and will probably go down as a top three 3pt shooter of all time. Klay gets crazy crazy hot, and the floor spacing he gives is something that only he and Curry can replicate at this time. Why so serious though? The next poster after me said the exact same thing. Get a grip buddy.

I have a total grip on what I'm saying, regardless of FlashBolt piling on. I'm just wondering what goes through your head with some of the things you post. San Antonio would obviously laugh their ***** off if Golden State tried to get Leonard for Thompson straight up. They're not even close.

JordansBulls
08-31-2016, 11:48 PM
How many players can actually lead you to the playoffs regardless of team?

1) LeBron
2) KD
3) Curry
4) MAYBE Westbrook (that one season he didn't)
5) CP3?
6) Harden
7) Kawhi? (not sure yet)
8) Anthony Davis (injury prone but has the talent)
9) Paul George
10) ???????

There aren't many players who can. For what Draymond brings to that team in being a triple double threat and 2nd in DPOY for two years in a row (should have won it when Kawhi was out for many games), he's an essential to championship contenders. He's that one player Cleveland wants and would elevate their team to probably the best team in the NBA right now. Yes, he's a system player but who cares? He makes nearly all teams better and that's a fact.

Dwyane Wade should be at the top of this list and he will be this season.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 02:51 AM
I have a total grip on what I'm saying, regardless of FlashBolt piling on. I'm just wondering what goes through your head with some of the things you post. San Antonio would obviously laugh their ***** off if Golden State tried to get Leonard for Thompson straight up. They're not even close.

But GS may not meke that trade either. Plus I never said it should happen. This whole scenario is made up. I suspect GS would laugh there ----- off if San Antonio offered Leonard for Durant, yet were still talking about those two aren't we. You don't have a grip on ----. You woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something. Crying and moaning for no apparent reason.

FlashBolt
09-01-2016, 03:16 AM
I'll tell you what, the way Curry has been shut down in the finals, you could not stop AI from getting buckets. To fast, to quick and to high a motor. 41% from the field isn't great, but no matter what kind of D you threw at him, you could not stop him from getting 35pts on 41% if he wanted to get that. He averaged 33 on 44% for a season. Dude was 5'11. You could not clamp him up no matter how hard you tried. You could not shut him down. He was like Barry Sanders on the b-ball court.

Production is production and AI wasn't efficient in his production. Curry had a much better season than AI ever did... You couldn't stop AI? First off, there are always going to be a few players every year you just can't stop. Curry is one of them and I refuse to believe he was stopped. Zero evidence suggests he was other than him missing wide open shots and making terrible plays theoughout the series. Secondly, his low FG% for much of his career is evidence that he was stopped somehow. With most players today, it's just terrible shot selection and a lack of awareness on the court. That matches what AI has been his entire career. For someone who likes to rate D. Rob highly due to his statistical dominance, you sure don't use that for AI. Why? Nearly every advanced statistic out there shows that he is not an elite player. Contrary to what you think, 7.5 assists is an empty stat if you don't account for how those assists are being obtained. AI played nearly 43 minutes per game for many seasons. If the ball is running through him more than 75% of the time and be is taking 25+ shots, he better be averaging 30 points/7.5 assists. For comparison sake, compare Westbrook's numbers with AI. Westbrook beats him at nearly every statistic both advanced and marginal. Keep in mind Russ played only 34 minutes -- nearly ten less minutes than AI.

Hopper15
09-01-2016, 09:34 AM
Durant's shooting, passing and size makes him the better fit to me. When the Warriors run that 1-4 pick&roll with Curry&Durant in crunch time it's literally going to be pick your poison.

YAALREADYKNO
09-01-2016, 09:37 AM
To be fair he also scored 33 on 25 shots while dishing 7.5 asst a game. Something Kobe could never do.

Why even bring up Kobe?

YAALREADYKNO
09-01-2016, 09:39 AM
Only because he can lock up Lebron.

...right...

IndyRealist
09-01-2016, 10:32 AM
Durant's shooting, passing and size makes him the better fit to me. When the Warriors run that 1-4 pick&roll with Curry&Durant in crunch time it's literally going to be pick your poison.

Specifically as a roll man I'd rather have Leonard. Finishing through traffic is not Durant's strength, especially if he's going against PFs.

Scoots
09-01-2016, 10:46 AM
Specifically as a roll man I'd rather have Leonard. Finishing through traffic is not Durant's strength, especially if he's going against PFs.

I have been openly questioning the KD to Warriors idea for a long time now ... and him at PF is part of it. He has said he doesn't want to play PF on offense or on defense ... his stats have been good against PFs but he wants to avoid it which makes me wonder how engaged he will be in the Warriors small ball lineups where he is the PF. I have a feeling the Warriors have 5 centers for the regular season when KD is not going to play much PF at all. I think they are going to save it for closing out big games and for the playoffs. They are more conscious of wearing down than they were last year.

The Warriors have to scheme to keep people out of KD and Curry's bodies as much as possible since it's the best way to stop both of them. Then they have to get so automatic at it that they can still run it in the playoffs when those windows get smaller and the whistles come far less frequent.

One advantage of him at PF is his passing ... in general I think he will benefit from having fewer decisions to make at critical times in games, but his passing is far better than most PFs and him in the post with Green at the opposite foul-line extended and Curry, Thompson, and Iguodala/Livingston/Clark/McCaw running around setting and using (illegal) screens for each other and with/for Green is going to make the offense harder to stop and less stressful for KD. I'm sure they are already working on all kinds of switch post motions and back screens on the baseline and corner to corner action to free somebody up for a 3 or a layup. I do wonder how long it will take to iron out the kinks that are going to happen though.

I think it's in these ways that KD fits the Warriors offensive plans better than Kawhi.

My guess is KD ends up leading the Warriors in scoring.

IndyRealist
09-01-2016, 10:50 AM
I have been openly questioning the KD to Warriors idea for a long time now ... and him at PF is part of it. He has said he doesn't want to play PF on offense or on defense ... his stats have been good against PFs but he wants to avoid it which makes me wonder how engaged he will be in the Warriors small ball lineups where his is the PF. I have a feeling the Warriors have 5 centers for the regular season when KD is not going to play much PF at all. I think they are going to save it for closing out big games and for the playoffs. They are more conscious of wearing down than they were last year.

Paul George refused to play PF, and CJ Miles had a host of injuries last year from it. I can't see Durant willingly playing there much, if at all.

Scoots
09-01-2016, 10:59 AM
Paul George refused to play PF, and CJ Miles had a host of injuries last year from it. I can't see Durant willingly playing there much, if at all.

KD is 6 inches taller and bigger and a more skilled player than CJ so that should make some difference ... but I agree that they need to limit his minutes. But in the pitch meeting from the Warriors to KD they had Curry, Thompson, Iguodala and Green at the meeting ... I'm sure KD can do that math and figure out that he's not going to play 1, 2, or 3. But the Warriors offense doesn't really have a typical role for a big they are just looking for open shots and matchup advantages.

Defense is a different story, and KD won't be able to avoid defending in the post if the opposing team has 2 capable bigs ... ironically a likely problem for the Warriors against the Spurs, Clippers, and Thunder.

Hopper15
09-01-2016, 12:08 PM
"He has said he doesn't want to play PF on offense or on defense"

I've never heard him say anything like that publicly. In fact some of OKC's best lineups against us was with Durant at PF and Ibaka at Center in the conference finals and he never complained one bit.

Hopper15
09-01-2016, 12:10 PM
BTW Kerr chimed in on Durant at PF.
http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/steve-kerr-kevin-durant-play-lot-power-forward-golden-state/319616

Bowman53
09-01-2016, 12:18 PM
"He has said he doesn't want to play PF on offense or on defense"

I've never heard him say anything like that publicly. In fact some of OKC's best lineups against us was with Durant at PF and Ibaka at Center in the conference finals and he never complained one bit.

Neither have I heard anything close to him refusing to play to PF. He's not going to play 30 plus minutes at PF but he definitely will see some time there.

Bowman53
09-01-2016, 12:20 PM
Specifically as a roll man I'd rather have Leonard. Finishing through traffic is not Durant's strength, especially if he's going against PFs.

It sure as heck isn't a weakness.

tredigs
09-01-2016, 12:21 PM
Sort of a silly thread topic though. The real question is, "will Kevin Durant, David West and Zaza be a better fit for GS than Harrison Barnes, Mo Speights and Bogut?". To that I can say that at the very least, it is a worthy experiment. And one that I am so glad has happened, specifically considering H Barnes commanded max level money in free agency and the Warriors would not have been able to keep both him and Bogut regardless.

He'll play the 4 at times for sure, just as he did for OKC.

SeoulBeatz
09-01-2016, 12:38 PM
Yes.

Scoots
09-01-2016, 02:13 PM
Neither have I heard anything close to him refusing to play to PF. He's not going to play 30 plus minutes at PF but he definitely will see some time there.

I've never heard of him refusing to do anything ... but players don't generally refuse ... they whine and complain and maybe don't give it their all. KD said a few years ago when asked about playing PF that he didn't feel PF was the best place to maximize his skills ... you have to read between the lines a little.

I think the Warriors will work very hard to limit his PF minutes during the regular season.

Scoots
09-01-2016, 02:20 PM
Sort of a silly thread topic though. The real question is, "will Kevin Durant, David West and Zaza be a better fit for GS than Harrison Barnes, Mo Speights and Bogut?". To that I can say that at the very least, it is a worthy experiment. And one that I am so glad has happened, specifically considering H Barnes commanded max level money in free agency and the Warriors would not have been able to keep both him and Bogut regardless.

He'll play the 4 at times for sure, just as he did for OKC.

I said mid-season last year that I felt Mo was on the way out regardless ... Kerr was tired of his erratic play, and they were high on Looney at the time ... then Looney had a second surgery and his issues being chronic are more concerning now. But I'm happy to go into the season with Speights production being replaced by KD and a lesser role for Looney and JMM

Barnes at a max vs KD at a max is REALLY obvious.
Bogut at $12M vs Zaza at $3M is probably about a wash overall with a loss on the defensive end and a big gain on the offensive end.

There is also the fact that the team lost Ezeli and Barbosa and they are just hoping and praying Varejao, McGee, Jones, Clark, and McCaw can make up for their loss.

Bowman53
09-01-2016, 03:03 PM
I've never heard of him refusing to do anything ... but players don't generally refuse ... they whine and complain and maybe don't give it their all. KD said a few years ago when asked about playing PF that he didn't feel PF was the best place to maximize his skills ... you have to read between the lines a little.

I think the Warriors will work very hard to limit his PF minutes during the regular season.

KD hasn't even whined and complained about playing PF in the past. He's not a selfish malcontent that puts himself before the team.

TBH I think you're grasping at straws here.

Scoots
09-01-2016, 03:23 PM
KD hasn't even whined and complained about playing PF in the past. He's not a selfish malcontent that puts himself before the team.

TBH I think you're grasping at straws here.

I didn't say he whined or complained, but he did talk a little negatively about the effect of playing extended minutes at PF would have on his body. But that was like 2012.

It's not grasping at straws that PF is a more physically demanding position and one which KD has managed to not play often to this point in his career.

In addition to the Warriors wanting to keep the physical load down on KD, Green playing C is rough physically too and they want to keep those minutes down.

So KD getting limited time at the 4 makes sense all over the place.

This all came up because someone else said Kawhi couldn't play the 4, not because I'm trying to convince anyone of anything.

Hopper15
09-01-2016, 04:40 PM
I didn't say he whined or complained, but he did talk a little negatively about the effect of playing extended minutes at PF would have on his body. But that was like 2012.

It's not grasping at straws that PF is a more physically demanding position and one which KD has managed to not play often to this point in his career.

In addition to the Warriors wanting to keep the physical load down on KD, Green playing C is rough physically too and they want to keep those minutes down.

So KD getting limited time at the 4 makes sense all over the place.

This all came up because someone else said Kawhi couldn't play the 4, not because I'm trying to convince anyone of anything.

“He’s a really good rim protector, in a non-traditional way,” Kerr said of the seven-time All-Star. “When he played the ‘four’ against us in the playoffs, he was brilliant. He blocked some shots and he scored a bunch of times. So he’ll play a lot of ‘four’ for us, for sure.”

What part of this quote did you miss in the link I provided? I guess you aren't paying attention because your so busy reading between the lines. lol

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 06:10 PM
Why even bring up Kobe?

He's the only other player Ive seen that was so reckless with his shot selection. He and AI are in a league of there own when it comes to "Gun Mode"

Scoots
09-01-2016, 06:33 PM
“He’s a really good rim protector, in a non-traditional way,” Kerr said of the seven-time All-Star. “When he played the ‘four’ against us in the playoffs, he was brilliant. He blocked some shots and he scored a bunch of times. So he’ll play a lot of ‘four’ for us, for sure.”

What part of this quote did you miss in the link I provided? I guess you aren't paying attention because your so busy reading between the lines. lol

So NBA coaches always tell the absolute truth to the press? And what is "a lot"? Is it 1500 minutes in the season? Or is it 300? I didn't say he wouldn't play the 4, I said they would try to keep it to a minimum during the season.

Chronz
09-01-2016, 07:22 PM
Paul George refused to play PF, and CJ Miles had a host of injuries last year from it. I can't see Durant willingly playing there much, if at all.

Its part of the new look death lineup, isn't it? They will unleash it when its not so taxing or when they need to enforce their spacing will against teams to the fullest.


One thing I wonder, how much longer can Draymond keep this up? Being the kind of guy who can guard 1-5 doesn't last very long and hes not particularly young. Rodman is the guy hes always compared to but Rodman evolved into a true 4 who could defend 3-5. When is Dray gonna lose that slight step on the perimeter?

Raps18-19 Champ
09-01-2016, 09:03 PM
Easily.

Kawhi and Draymond would be :drool:

IKnowHoops
09-02-2016, 12:05 AM
Easily.

Kawhi and Draymond would be :drool:

So are you saying that you would rather have Kawhi as the GS GM over Durant?

And if so do you think Kawhi is a better fit for GS than Lebron is?

And if yes, would you rather have Kawhi over Lebron if you are the GS GM too?

lol, please
09-02-2016, 02:48 AM
Chemistry wise he probably would be, but I'd still probably rather have KD for the fact that he's one of the few players in the league who can just catch fire and win you a playoff game on his back. With Klay and Curry being two other guys who can pull that off, it's just a nightmare having to fade all three every single night.

Great post. I agree.

Hopper15
09-02-2016, 09:20 AM
So NBA coaches always tell the absolute truth to the press? And what is "a lot"? Is it 1500 minutes in the season? Or is it 300? I didn't say he wouldn't play the 4, I said they would try to keep it to a minimum during the season.

Kerr is not an idiot. If he wanted this to be discreet he wouldn't have said this to the press.

This whole thing started because you said Durant doesn't want to play PF on offense or on defense which is utter BS.

FlashBolt
09-02-2016, 12:22 PM
I personally think LeBron is a better defender than Kawhi when he is engaged. Sadly, that's something he can't do at this point of his career so he chooses the team/scenario to do so.

tredigs
09-04-2016, 12:26 AM
I personally think LeBron is a better defender than Kawhi when he is engaged. Sadly, that's something he can't do at this point of his career so he chooses the team/scenario to do so.

Nah. Kawh I is never disengaged, for one. Which is 90% of D truly. Beyond that, he is just a better perimeter defender against any player in the game than anyone. Bron may be better against some 4s, but frankly none come to mind. Only more "dynamic" defender is Draymond, not Bron. Despite his popularity the DPOY voting has it right.

Vee-Rex
09-04-2016, 12:35 AM
I personally think LeBron is a better defender than Kawhi when he is engaged. Sadly, that's something he can't do at this point of his career so he chooses the team/scenario to do so.

Bron defends the paint much better than Kawhi, and defends the mid-range evenly if not a little better, but Kawhi is superior on the perimeter (according to SportVu anyway).

I think a fully engaged LeBron is a better overall defender but I honestly don't think LeBron can keep up that long for long, whereas Kawhi can just keep it going non-stop at this point.

Scoots
09-04-2016, 12:49 AM
Bron defends the paint much better than Kawhi, and defends the mid-range evenly if not a little better, but Kawhi is superior on the perimeter (according to SportVu anyway).

I think a fully engaged LeBron is a better overall defender but I honestly don't think LeBron can keep up that long for long, whereas Kawhi can just keep it going non-stop at this point.

On the Truehoop podcast they asked the question "If you could have 12 copies of any player in NBA history for your team who would you choose" and about 10 seconds later after they all chose LeBron the question asker said "Okay, what if you can't choose LeBron" :)

flea
09-04-2016, 12:51 AM
Bron defends the paint much better than Kawhi, and defends the mid-range evenly if not a little better, but Kawhi is superior on the perimeter (according to SportVu anyway).

I think a fully engaged LeBron is a better overall defender but I honestly don't think LeBron can keep up that long for long, whereas Kawhi can just keep it going non-stop at this point.

Kawhi is just better on the ball than Lebron ever was. Lebron was always overrated as an on-ball defender, mostly because he's spent his career hidden on non-offensive wings and shied away from any post defense. Yes he has had spurts in key moments where he defends slashers and was good at it, but he if he even does that for a quarter in the playoffs it's unique.

Kawhi spends the majority of games on the toughest on-ball assignment, whether it's a roll man or a ballhandler. It's nothing to do with energy, he's just better at it than Lebron (who was rarely, if ever, his team's best on-ball defender). The idea that any NBA player can be a good or great defender if they just "try" is just as moronic as saying Lebron could be as good of a shooter as Curry if he just "tried."

tredigs
09-04-2016, 01:09 AM
On the Truehoop podcast they asked the question "If you could have 12 copies of any player in NBA history for your team who would you choose" and about 10 seconds later after they all chose LeBron the question asker said "Okay, what if you can't choose LeBron" :)

Bron's the clear answer (especially as far as relevance goes) for how versatile he is on both ends and how large he is. The true-hoopers in the off-season are a silly bunch and missed some mentions though. First that came to mind for me after Bron was peak KG, and Wilt should have been brought up for sure. We're talking about one of the largest/strongest/fastest players in history who was dynamic enough to be the leader in assists for the season when he saw it fit. I'd feel content with 5 Wilt's against 5 Bron's.

@Vee-Rex, Bron rarely if ever defends the paint, so that is largely moot, no? They're both perimeter defenders at their core, and Kawhi is MUCH better at it day in/day out.

FlashBolt
09-04-2016, 01:21 AM
Nah. Kawh I is never disengaged, for one. Which is 90% of D truly. Beyond that, he is just a better perimeter defender against any player in the game than anyone. Bron may be better against some 4s, but frankly none come to mind. Only more "dynamic" defender is Draymond, not Bron. Despite his popularity the DPOY voting has it right.

That's why I said when LeBron is engaged, he is a better defender. Kawhi might be the better perimeter defender but he's also had the luxury of having Duncan behind him so that also helps. Overall, I like LeBron's versatility on the defensive end more. And I disagree with Draymond being a better defender than when LeBron is engaged. Unless nutkicking is a skill these days?

tredigs
09-04-2016, 01:37 AM
That's why I said when LeBron is engaged, he is a better defender. Kawhi might be the better perimeter defender but he's also had the luxury of having Duncan behind him so that also helps. Overall, I like LeBron's versatility on the defensive end more. And I disagree with Draymond being a better defender than when LeBron is engaged. Unless nutkicking is a skill these days?

Hilarious take as usual Flash you nut-buster-you, and while nut-kicking is not a requisite, anchoring center at the 5 on the best 5-man lineup of the past 2 seasons certainly is.

I feel like you'd have to add the caveat of "when Lebron is engaged and has enough energy". Because he entered the Finals in 2015 with literally the longest break in NBA history, and although he certainly had to carry the offense, he simply did nothing defensively of note all series. Let's not pretend otherwise if we're going to sit here and laud him as the preeminent defender of our generation "when he wants that to be". He's not. Kawhi is the best. And Draymond is the most dynamic.

FlashBolt
09-04-2016, 01:57 AM
Hilarious take as usual Flash you nut-buster-you, and while nut-kicking is not a requisite, anchoring center at the 5 on the best 5-man lineup of the past 2 seasons certainly is.

I feel like you'd have to add the caveat of "when Lebron is engaged and has enough energy". Because he entered the Finals in 2015 with literally the longest break in NBA history, and although he certainly had to carry the offense, he simply did nothing defensively of note all series. Let's not pretend otherwise if we're going to sit here and laud him as the preeminent defender of our generation "when he wants that to be". He's not. Kawhi is the best. And Draymond is the most dynamic.

Yes, they are now. But LeBron in 2012-2013 was an elitoption defender. At any case, who you decide to pick is irrelevant. How much better of a defender can one be? Like I said, for versatility purposes, I like LeBron. Lets not act like Kawhi didn't have the luxury of playing with a defensive genius in Pop. When has a team of his not ranked top 5 in defense? Draymond most dynamic? Idk, they didn't put him on Bron even when Iggy was on a broken back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IndyRealist
09-04-2016, 07:38 AM
Bron defends the paint much better than Kawhi, and defends the mid-range evenly if not a little better, but Kawhi is superior on the perimeter (according to SportVu anyway).

I think a fully engaged LeBron is a better overall defender but I honestly don't think LeBron can keep up that long for long, whereas Kawhi can just keep it going non-stop at this point.

SportVU might be a little skewed in his case, because Lebron is about the only player in the league who decides who he guards. But I still think it's Lebron.

ewing
09-04-2016, 10:27 AM
Kawhi is just better on the ball than Lebron ever was. Lebron was always overrated as an on-ball defender, mostly because he's spent his career hidden on non-offensive wings and shied away from any post defense. Yes he has had spurts in key moments where he defends slashers and was good at it, but he if he even does that for a quarter in the playoffs it's unique.

Kawhi spends the majority of games on the toughest on-ball assignment, whether it's a roll man or a ballhandler. It's nothing to do with energy, he's just better at it than Lebron (who was rarely, if ever, his team's best on-ball defender). The idea that any NBA player can be a good or great defender if they just "try" is just as moronic as saying Lebron could be as good of a shooter as Curry if he just "tried."

thanks i don't have to respond to this stupid debate now

kdspurman
09-04-2016, 11:51 AM
Nah. Kawh I is never disengaged, for one. Which is 90% of D truly. Beyond that, he is just a better perimeter defender against any player in the game than anyone. Bron may be better against some 4s, but frankly none come to mind. Only more "dynamic" defender is Draymond, not Bron. Despite his popularity the DPOY voting has it right.


Kawhi is just better on the ball than Lebron ever was. Lebron was always overrated as an on-ball defender, mostly because he's spent his career hidden on non-offensive wings and shied away from any post defense. Yes he has had spurts in key moments where he defends slashers and was good at it, but he if he even does that for a quarter in the playoffs it's unique.

Kawhi spends the majority of games on the toughest on-ball assignment, whether it's a roll man or a ballhandler. It's nothing to do with energy, he's just better at it than Lebron (who was rarely, if ever, his team's best on-ball defender). The idea that any NBA player can be a good or great defender if they just "try" is just as moronic as saying Lebron could be as good of a shooter as Curry if he just "tried."

Yes...

Scoots
09-04-2016, 12:50 PM
Kawhi's D is understated and not showy. He's a silent assassin. His on-ball defense is the best overall in the NBA, and his team defense is also superb. Head to head with LeBron, LeBron is only better inside, but only because of mass, and not by much.

Vee-Rex
09-04-2016, 01:26 PM
@Vee-Rex, Bron rarely if ever defends the paint, so that is largely moot, no? They're both perimeter defenders at their core, and Kawhi is MUCH better at it day in/day out.

(disclaimer: following stats are for the 2015-16 regular season only)

As far as frequency goes, approximately 27% of when LeBron is contesting shots is in the paint. LeBron does play a lot at the PF position. I think it's still impressive that while his opponents usually average 60% FG in the paint, they only average 48% FG when LeBron is guarding/contesting their shots in the paint.

Compare that to someone like Paul George who holds his opponents to a MUCH lower FG% than their usual at the 3-point line (even more than Kawhi does), you'll see that opponents are a net positive (have a higher FG% than their usual FG%) when they're being defended by Paul George in the paint.

It really goes a long way to show us one reason for Paul George's woes at the PF position, since he's a below average defender there (just barely though).

Comparing Kawhi to LeBron in the regular season... their defensive stats (at the 3-point line, from 2-point range, and in the paint) are very similar, with LeBron having the edge at all 3. However, if we look at LeBron's playoff defensive numbers... they're absolutely ABSURD. I just did a double-take while looking at them. But here's what it looks like...

2015-16 PLAYOFFS LeBron:

The opponents usual overall FG% that he guarded was at 45.9%.
The opponents overall FG% WHEN he guarded them was at 31.9%

-14.0 difference

The opponents usual 3-point% that he guarded was at 36.7%
The opponents 3-point% WHEN he guarded them was at 24.1%

-12.6 difference

The opponents usual 2pt% that he guarded was at 50.5%
The opponents 2pt% WHEN he guarded them was at 36.6%

-13.9 difference

The opponents usual in-the-paint% that he guarded was at 61.3%
The opponents in-the-paint% WHEN he guarded them was 37.9%

A WHOPPING -23.4 difference

Regular season:

LeBron at 3-point line: -2.6 difference
Kawhi at 3-point line: -1.3 difference

LeBron 2pters: -8.2 difference
Kawhi 2ptsers: -7.2 difference

LeBron in-paint: -11.3 difference
Kawhi in-paint: -7.0 difference

Kawhi's defensive numbers in these past playoffs don't even lick the bottom of LeBron's shoes (I didn't list them but they're nowhere near LeBron's), whereas during the regular season they were pretty even on the perimeter, mid-range, and in the paint (with LeBron having a slight edge on every single one).

I imagine LeBron's playoff defense in 2015-16 probably measures up as one of the best of all time.

Edit: Just wanted to clarify that I'm not claiming LeBron is a better perimeter defender than Kawhi. LeBron's overall defense in 2014-15 was worse. But this 2015-16 playoffs was truly a historical defensive performance by LeBron.

tredigs
09-04-2016, 01:31 PM
Nice rundown. Are those numbers comparative to the average player in those spots, or his mark at that exact times numbers in that position? Essentially are they comp-adjusted? What's the link... I want to scour through a little bit when I get a chance.

Vee-Rex
09-04-2016, 01:36 PM
Nice rundown. Are those numbers comparative to the average player in those spots, or his mark at that exact times numbers in that position? Essentially are they comp-adjusted? What's the link... I want to scour through a little bit when I get a chance.

Comparative to the regular/usual FG% of the people he's defending (I'm assuming they combine them all to determine one number).

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202695/tracking/defense/?p=kawhi-leonard&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/tracking/defense/?p=lebron-james&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

First is Kawhi, 2nd is LeBron. It's utilizing SportVu player tracking. Those are for the regular season but you can adjust it to show for a variety of things.

IndyRealist
09-04-2016, 05:21 PM
Comparative to the regular/usual FG% of the people he's defending (I'm assuming they combine them all to determine one number).

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202695/tracking/defense/?p=kawhi-leonard&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/tracking/defense/?p=lebron-james&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

First is Kawhi, 2nd is LeBron. It's utilizing SportVu player tracking. Those are for the regular season but you can adjust it to show for a variety of things.

For Paul George specifically, the numbers are skewed because their defense for the last several years was designed for wing players to funnel the wings into the shot blockers, first Roy Hibbert then Ian Mahimni. If Paul George was defending someone in the paint it was either a jumper where he was recovering from chasing someone off the 3pt line or something had gone horribly wrong.

tredigs
09-04-2016, 05:53 PM
Comparative to the regular/usual FG% of the people he's defending (I'm assuming they combine them all to determine one number).

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202695/tracking/defense/?p=kawhi-leonard&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/tracking/defense/?p=lebron-james&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

First is Kawhi, 2nd is LeBron. It's utilizing SportVu player tracking. Those are for the regular season but you can adjust it to show for a variety of things.

OK cool figured it was from SportsVu. These are really fun to scour through. LBJ's D stats in both reg and post season this year were certainly amazing. Muchhh better than holding them to just 1.5% worse in the reg season last year, and 2.2% in 14/15's Finals run. Without getting into the nitty gritty of defensive systems and how often a player is actually guarding another teams top-option, etc, it's definitely a good one to reference.

Was curious about Draymond's and Curry's. Curry consistently holds his opponent to about 3.5% worse than their average in both regular and post-season in each of the 3 years they have tracked. Draymond holds them to about 6% worse in the regular season and up to a fantastic 8.4% in the playoffs. That's definitely much better than we see from Kawhi's numbers as it relates to opponent FG%. Kawhi held opponents to a very strong -6% this past season, but in the 14/15 year (his first DPOY), he actually did not even hold opponents below their average (well -0.4%), and it has the Clips torching him in the playoffs. Pretty interesting actually. Granted he likely has to work harder than just about any other defender in the game.

For fun I looked up Whiteside just now too, simply because I don't think he's a very good defender and some wanted to pencil him in as a legit DPOY candidate this past season. In 15/16 he held opponents to -2.3% lower than their reg season average (45.5% from their standard 47.8%), but in the 2014/15 season and in this years playoffs they scored at their standard rate against him that they did the rest of the year. So, not very impressive in the least as far as this shows.

Another stat I'd like to see them add to this though would be the difference in shooting frequency from their average to when they are guarded by X player.

tredigs
09-04-2016, 06:29 PM
Kevin Durant: Held opponents to 38.5% reg season (-6.3%), 38.3% playoffs (-7.7%) this past year. Ditto his last full season in 13/14 (38.5%). Defensive juggernaut confirmed ; )

In none of the three prior reg seasons (only available back to 2013/14) did Westbrook hold opponents to below their average. Though he did in the past playoffs for the first time (did not in 13/14 playoffs). Overrated defender confirmed.

H Barnes opponents all three seasons all scored above their average btw.

Vee-Rex
09-04-2016, 09:04 PM
For Paul George specifically, the numbers are skewed because their defense for the last several years was designed for wing players to funnel the wings into the shot blockers, first Roy Hibbert then Ian Mahimni. If Paul George was defending someone in the paint it was either a jumper where he was recovering from chasing someone off the 3pt line or something had gone horribly wrong.

Yep. I know there's definitely circumstances that affect a player's numbers (like defensive schemes that you mentioned), so I definitely wouldn't recommend relying solely on those numbers. Not to mention stuff like fighting around screens and preventing backdoor cuts. There's just stuff that can't be accounted for.

Tredigs: Yeah, Durant is confirmed to be an elite man-to-man defender. No questions asked.

I looked at Draymond's numbers too - dude is incredible on the defensive end. I think he might be the most well-rounded I've seen out of everybody. He defends the perimeter, 2pt, and paint consistently good and has done it the previous year too. He doesn't have a defensive weakness at any spot on the floor unlike the others.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2016, 09:21 PM
Nah. Kawh I is never disengaged, for one. Which is 90% of D truly. Beyond that, he is just a better perimeter defender against any player in the game than anyone. Bron may be better against some 4s, but frankly none come to mind. Only more "dynamic" defender is Draymond, not Bron. Despite his popularity the DPOY voting has it right.

This is false, Lebron is the only player in the game that makes that block to win the game in the finals. Furthermore, Lebron is just better because he's quicker, faster, stronger jumps higher and is just a better athlete. You are knowledgable, but you are quite the homer. Plus you have built up disdain for Lebron. When engaged Lebron can stop pretty much anyone. He just stuck doing everything on the court so he has to do things in spurts. If he had the responsibilities of these lesser players, he could buckle down and stop anyone. Hebron can make plays that Draymond, nor Leonard can make because he is a different breed of human. Lebron would have a much harder time scoring against himself than Leonard. Against himself, no move he has would work, especially the bully.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2016, 09:26 PM
On the Truehoop podcast they asked the question "If you could have 12 copies of any player in NBA history for your team who would you choose" and about 10 seconds later after they all chose LeBron the question asker said "Okay, what if you can't choose LeBron" :)

LOL, yeah its a beyond obvious answer. I was talking with this developmental league guy and he said the same thing. He said if he could have one player it would be Mike, but if he could have five players he'd want five Lebrons.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2016, 09:30 PM
Kawhi is just better on the ball than Lebron ever was. Lebron was always overrated as an on-ball defender, mostly because he's spent his career hidden on non-offensive wings and shied away from any post defense. Yes he has had spurts in key moments where he defends slashers and was good at it, but he if he even does that for a quarter in the playoffs it's unique.

Kawhi spends the majority of games on the toughest on-ball assignment, whether it's a roll man or a ballhandler. It's nothing to do with energy, he's just better at it than Lebron (who was rarely, if ever, his team's best on-ball defender). The idea that any NBA player can be a good or great defender if they just "try" is just as moronic as saying Lebron could be as good of a shooter as Curry if he just "tried."

Never saw anyone guard a guy as quick as Prime D-Rose like Bron was. He was quick enough to stay in front and if on the chance Rose got by him, his recover speed and athletic ability allowed him to catch up and pat his shot. No way Leonard could of given Rose the problems that Lebron did. Leonard doesn't have that dumb explosion off one foot that Lebron has. Thats really his secret weapon that makes him the best defender in my mind. He's just superhuman compared to the rest of the league physically.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2016, 09:39 PM
(disclaimer: following stats are for the 2015-16 regular season only)

As far as frequency goes, approximately 27% of when LeBron is contesting shots is in the paint. LeBron does play a lot at the PF position. I think it's still impressive that while his opponents usually average 60% FG in the paint, they only average 48% FG when LeBron is guarding/contesting their shots in the paint.

Compare that to someone like Paul George who holds his opponents to a MUCH lower FG% than their usual at the 3-point line (even more than Kawhi does), you'll see that opponents are a net positive (have a higher FG% than their usual FG%) when they're being defended by Paul George in the paint.

It really goes a long way to show us one reason for Paul George's woes at the PF position, since he's a below average defender there (just barely though).

Comparing Kawhi to LeBron in the regular season... their defensive stats (at the 3-point line, from 2-point range, and in the paint) are very similar, with LeBron having the edge at all 3. However, if we look at LeBron's playoff defensive numbers... they're absolutely ABSURD. I just did a double-take while looking at them. But here's what it looks like...

2015-16 PLAYOFFS LeBron:

The opponents usual overall FG% that he guarded was at 45.9%.
The opponents overall FG% WHEN he guarded them was at 31.9%

-14.0 difference

The opponents usual 3-point% that he guarded was at 36.7%
The opponents 3-point% WHEN he guarded them was at 24.1%

-12.6 difference

The opponents usual 2pt% that he guarded was at 50.5%
The opponents 2pt% WHEN he guarded them was at 36.6%

-13.9 difference

The opponents usual in-the-paint% that he guarded was at 61.3%
The opponents in-the-paint% WHEN he guarded them was 37.9%

A WHOPPING -23.4 difference

Regular season:

LeBron at 3-point line: -2.6 difference
Kawhi at 3-point line: -1.3 difference

LeBron 2pters: -8.2 difference
Kawhi 2ptsers: -7.2 difference

LeBron in-paint: -11.3 difference
Kawhi in-paint: -7.0 difference

Kawhi's defensive numbers in these past playoffs don't even lick the bottom of LeBron's shoes (I didn't list them but they're nowhere near LeBron's), whereas during the regular season they were pretty even on the perimeter, mid-range, and in the paint (with LeBron having a slight edge on every single one).

I imagine LeBron's playoff defense in 2015-16 probably measures up as one of the best of all time.

Edit: Just wanted to clarify that I'm not claiming LeBron is a better perimeter defender than Kawhi. LeBron's overall defense in 2014-15 was worse. But this 2015-16 playoffs was truly a historical defensive performance by LeBron.

You don't have to but I will. This is what I saw when he D's up. Only known Bron haters and Team Homers are really saying anything different. Hebron has physical tools that make scoring on him way harder than anyone else. And these numbers absolutely prove it. Especially when Lebron doesn't have a defensive team to help him out like the Spurs and Dubs do.

Vee-Rex
09-05-2016, 11:43 AM
You don't have to but I will. This is what I saw when he D's up. Only known Bron haters and Team Homers are really saying anything different. Hebron has physical tools that make scoring on him way harder than anyone else. And these numbers absolutely prove it. Especially when Lebron doesn't have a defensive team to help him out like the Spurs and Dubs do.

Well of course YOU would throw your weight behind anything that paints LeBron in a positive light. The numbers paint a picture, but they don't account for every little detail. There's a myriad of variables that come into play that prevents us from using numbers such as those as the be-all and end-all.

Those numbers deal specifically with when shots are defended/contested, and do not reflect an individual driving around another and getting a wide open layup. I can say this with 100% certainty - during the regular season LeBron is far more likely to give up on a play (and allow his man to drive around and lay it up) than Kawhi, and that sort of thing isn't accounted for in these stats.

It's why Kyrie Irving's numbers are decent. He's literally an average man-to-man defender according to these numbers, but everyone and their grandma knows that he can't guard a pick-n-roll well at all and it sometimes results in the opponent getting easier, uncontested/undefended buckets.

Again... they paint a picture but they don't account for everything.

Edit (because I always have more to say lol!): The numbers reveal that LeBron is a terrific defender, perhaps a little better than we give him credit for (at least this past year anyway). They don't necessarily prove he's a better perimeter defender than Kawhi, though IMO. I'm personally cool with an argument for both, especially since I don't like to hand over crowns after just one year.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2016, 12:07 PM
Well of course YOU would throw your weight behind anything that paints LeBron in a positive light. The numbers paint a picture, but they don't account for every little detail. There's a myriad of variables that come into play that prevents us from using numbers such as those as the be-all and end-all.

Those numbers deal specifically with when shots are defended/contested, and do not reflect an individual driving around another and getting a wide open layup. I can say this with 100% certainty - during the regular season LeBron is far more likely to give up on a play (and allow his man to drive around and lay it up) than Kawhi, and that sort of thing isn't accounted for in these stats.

It's why Kyrie Irving's numbers are decent. He's literally an average man-to-man defender according to these numbers, but everyone and their grandma knows that he can't guard a pick-n-roll well at all and it sometimes results in the opponent getting easier, uncontested/undefended buckets.

Again... they paint a picture but they don't account for everything.

Edit (because I always have more to say lol!): The numbers reveal that LeBron is a terrific defender, perhaps a little better than we give him credit for (at least this past year anyway). They don't necessarily prove he's a better perimeter defender than Kawhi, though IMO. I'm personally cool with an argument for both, especially since I don't like to hand over crowns after just one year.

And I 100% agree with this, thats why I preface it by saying when he actual tries to defend. I mean the guy averaged what 30/11/9. Putting up those kind at the age of 31, your gonna need to find time to rest don't you think. But he still managed to log those ridiculous defensive stats...thats what I saw with the eye test. When he locks in on someone, they are forced to put up an off balanced fadeaway prayer because he just out athletes them in every phase. Saw it tons in the Raptors series when he would find himself on Derozen.

Lets say all he had to do on offense was average 18/7/5, like Draymond or Leonard. Then think about how much more he could focus his energies on defense.

But still those numbers do tell a story. Is there a stat that shows how often someone gets beat by there man they are guarding? That could help put some overall perspective on both stats.

And common V-Rex lets be real. Every Stat paints Lebron in a good light lol.