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Lionel20
08-29-2016, 11:23 PM
How would fare against the '92 Dream Team in a best of 7?

I thought to give this a quick shot using my own formula for Value Shares. I'll post the link for the details when I get chance. Basically, value shares is a player contribution metric based on Alternate Win Score and VORP, that I tweaked to create an even higher correlation with wins.

Before the linear weights are applied, all stats are adjusted for the era each player played in. Each player's box stats are denominated by a neutral era.

I decided not to factor in injuries, like Anthony Davis' shoulder and knee. For the ideal 2016 team, with everyone healthy and no player withdraws I anticipated the roster to fill as follows:

2016 Ideal Olympic Roster
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
James Harden
Chris Paul
John Wall
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Carmelo Anthony
Anthony Davis
DeMarcus Cousins
Andre Drummond

It's a roster of not necessarily the best players, but the ones most likely to make the team. For instance, my Value Shares actually scores Towns over Drummond but I see no indication that Towns would receive the invite from Olympic management. Carmelo at forward - same problem: Aldridge, George, Millsap, and Draymond Green all scored higher than Carmelo during the 2015-16 Regular Season, but I doubt the recruiters leave Carmelo off the list.

*I kept the same position ratio's as the current 2016 Olympic roster. It's likely that Davis rotates at Center to match up against the '92 Dream Team bigs.

Here are the Minutes Played Breakdowns for both the '92 Team & 2016 Ideal Olympic Squad (for the '92 team I based them on their actual GS/G % in Barcelona).
*Stockton GS/G % increases because this simulation ignores injuries


DREAM TEAM Min.
David Robinson* 89
Patrick Ewing* 54
Larry Bird* 54
Michael Jordan* 125
Scottie Pippen* 36
Karl Malone* 71
John Stockton* 36
Clyde Drexler* 36
Christian Laettner 18
Chris Mullin* 36
Charles Barkley* 89
Magic Johnson* 71



2016 US Olympic Team Min.
Russell Westbrook 36
Stephen Curry 89
James Harden 36
Chris Paul 71
John Wall 36
LeBron James 125
Kevin Durant 89
Kawhi Leonard 36
Carmelo Anthony 71
Anthony Davis 36
DeMarcus Cousins 54
Andre Drummond 36

Below are the anticipated per game player contributions determined by Values Score (Value Score X Full Game Equivalent = Value Share):
*Determined by performance levels from '92 & '16
*Laettner performance levels from '93
*Magics performance levels from '91 w/ marginal declines


DREAM TEAM V/S
David Robinson* 0.207
Patrick Ewing* 0.157
Larry Bird* 0.159
Michael Jordan* 0.209
Scottie Pippen* 0.163
Karl Malone* 0.186
John Stockton* 0.186
Clyde Drexler* 0.185
Christian Laettner 0.114
Chris Mullin* 0.155
Charles Barkley* 0.184
Magic Johnson* 0.183

2016 US Olympic Team V/S
Russell Westbrook 0.198
Stephen Curry 0.201
James Harden 0.164
Chris Paul 0.186
John Wall 0.145
LeBron James 0.208
Kevin Durant 0.197
Kawhi Leonard 0.184
Carmelo Anthony 0.135
Anthony Davis 0.176
DeMarcus Cousins 0.170
Andre Drummond 0.155

Each players MP is divided by 36 to create the Full Game Equivalent. Full Game Equivalent is multiplied by the Value Score and that equals the player contribution for the best of 7 series.

Results:


DREAM TEAM V/S
David Robinson* 0.513
Patrick Ewing* 0.233
Larry Bird* 0.236
Michael Jordan* 0.726
Scottie Pippen* 0.162
Karl Malone* 0.370
John Stockton* 0.185
Clyde Drexler* 0.184
Christian Laettner 0.056
Chris Mullin* 0.153
Charles Barkley* 0.455
Magic Johnson* 0.363
Total 3.637

2016 US Olympic Team V/S
Russell Westbrook 0.196
Stephen Curry 0.498
James Harden 0.163
Chris Paul 0.369
John Wall 0.144
LeBron James 0.723
Kevin Durant 0.488
Kawhi Leonard 0.182
Carmelo Anthony 0.267
Anthony Davis 0.175
DeMarcus Cousins 0.253
Andre Drummond 0.154
Total 3.611

Few things,

My Value Shares formula scored very high in correlation test with wins, I think it to be a fairly accurate formula, but no real way of telling how the match-ups play out. From a numbers perspective, the '16 is nearly equal in performance levels.

Both Totals can be rounded out to 4, but the '92 Team score slightly higher overall.

I know Barkely performed at extremely high level in '92, but I doubt he'd be as efficient in a best of 7 against a team of equal caliber.

If the '16 Team removes Carmelo, and opts for one of the aforementioned Fowards, it's possible that they've put together a team that best the '92 squad. But of course, if the '92 Dream Team replaces Bird/Laettner for let's say '92 Larry Johnson/Larry Nance... it's still easily the best team ever assembled regardless of what changes the '16 Team makes.

IKnowHoops
08-30-2016, 12:18 AM
Ahhh look at the Admiral

More-Than-Most
08-30-2016, 12:41 AM
i am so happy this thread is happening lol.

lakerfan85
08-30-2016, 10:05 AM
Ahh.. The good old what if threads.. Gotta love them!!

TheDish87
08-30-2016, 12:42 PM
yea um that's way too much analytical work for Olympic play. If LeBron, Curry, and Russ played we would have won gold but without them we won......wait for it............waaaait for it............GOLD!!!!!

6man
08-30-2016, 12:46 PM
But would they beat the redeem team?

IKnowHoops
08-30-2016, 01:20 PM
But would they beat the Dream team?

I got two words for you...
... THE ADMIRAL

HOLD_THIS_L
08-30-2016, 01:51 PM
How do you stop this line up

Curry
Klay
KD
Bron
DC


Sent from my N817 using Tapatalk

HOLD_THIS_L
08-30-2016, 01:53 PM
RB
JH
KL
CA
DJ

Sent from my N817 using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
08-30-2016, 03:24 PM
I got two words for you...
... THE ADMIRAL

What's with your fandom with D.Rob? He was great but he's not otherworldly.

6man
08-30-2016, 03:35 PM
I got two words for you...
... THE ADMIRAL

Never heard of her!

Redrum187
08-30-2016, 04:24 PM
PG: Stephen Curry
SG: Klay Thompson
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Kawhi Leonard
C: LeBron James

That would be my starting line-up if all players played.

FlashBolt
08-30-2016, 04:33 PM
PG: Stephen Curry
SG: Klay Thompson
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Kawhi Leonard
C: LeBron James

That would be my starting line-up if all players played.

LeBron and Kawhi have zero chance against Barkley+Robinson's size. I'll do:

PG: CP3
SG: Kawhi Leonard
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: LeBron James
C: Anthony Davis

IKnowHoops
08-30-2016, 04:50 PM
What's with your fandom with D.Rob? He was great but he's not otherworldly.

71pts
1-4 players to put up a Triple double
Top 5 ever player in best PER in a season
Top 5 ever player in Win48 in a season
Scoring Champion
Defensive player of year
MVP

I disagree. He's underatted. Name another player with this in his tool bag who is not otherworldly!!

IKnowHoops
08-30-2016, 04:53 PM
71pts
1-4 players to put up a Triple double
Top 5 ever player in best PER in a season
Top 5 ever player in Win48 in a season
Scoring Champion
Defensive player of year
MVP

I disagree. He's underatted. Name another player with this in his tool bag who is not otherworldly!!

Unfair, no one accept Drob can claim this so...yes he was otherworldly

JordansBulls
08-30-2016, 08:59 PM
Dream Team would smoke them. 2016 Team would smoke 2004 team and 2006 team as well.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 12:56 AM
Never heard of her!

She's better than your favorite player

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 11:12 AM
71pts
1-4 players to put up a Triple double
Top 5 ever player in best PER in a season
Top 5 ever player in Win48 in a season
Scoring Champion
Defensive player of year
MVP

I disagree. He's underatted. Name another player with this in his tool bag who is not otherworldly!!

Yet never won a thing until Timmy D got there.. Putting that much value on stats defeats the purpose of watching the game. David Robinson isn't even a top five center so it's not like he's on another dimension.

6man
08-31-2016, 12:11 PM
She's better than your favorite player

She ain't better than prime Damon Stoudamire!

mrblisterdundee
08-31-2016, 12:19 PM
The result would be the same.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 12:27 PM
Yet never won a thing until Timmy D got there.. Putting that much value on stats defeats the purpose of watching the game. David Robinson isn't even a top five center so it's not like he's on another dimension.

Thats like saying Lebron never won a thing till he teamed up with Wade and Bosh! Common. His teams were absolute garbage. His rookie season he lead his team to the biggest turn around in NBA history. He turned the worst team into a 50 win team. Proof of having the biggest impact in NBA history ever. Not to mention POP didnt start coaching till Tim got there either. He's underatted as I said. Statistically he is a top 5 center. Statistically he is a top five IMPACT PLAYER ever! No one can win by themselves. Jordan never won with out Pippen and Phil. And he would of been a first round exit on a team as crap as the first team he had. He got into the playoffs with a loosing record. TEAM GAME!

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 12:28 PM
Switch David's career path with Jabbar and he has the same rings if not more.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 12:29 PM
She ain't better than prime Damon Stoudamire!

She gave Damon the biz with the strap

FlashBolt
08-31-2016, 02:12 PM
Thats like saying Lebron never won a thing till he teamed up with Wade and Bosh! Common. His teams were absolute garbage. His rookie season he lead his team to the biggest turn around in NBA history. He turned the worst team into a 50 win team. Proof of having the biggest impact in NBA history ever. Not to mention POP didnt start coaching till Tim got there either. He's underatted as I said. Statistically he is a top 5 center. Statistically he is a top five IMPACT PLAYER ever! No one can win by themselves. Jordan never won with out Pippen and Phil. And he would of been a first round exit on a team as crap as the first team he had. He got into the playoffs with a loosing record. TEAM GAME!

It's not the same thing but I'll let you figure that out. Statistically doesn't mean better player.. We've gone through this many times and have seen it backfire. He has better stats than Tim Duncan but please do not tell me he is better than Tim Duncan. Just don't, please. Plus, he shrivels up in the playoffs nearly every season.

IKnowHoops
08-31-2016, 05:44 PM
It's not the same thing but I'll let you figure that out. Statistically doesn't mean better player.. We've gone through this many times and have seen it backfire. He has better stats than Tim Duncan but please do not tell me he is better than Tim Duncan. Just don't, please. Plus, he shrivels up in the playoffs nearly every season.

24/12/3 average in playoffs his first 7 seasons. If thats shriveling then that means he was otherworldy in the regular season.

And Yes, I am telling you he was better than Tim Duncan. I watched all of both of there careers. Drob was unstoppable. He just never had the coach or the players that Tim did. You give Rookie David Robinson a 3o year old David Robinson when he comes into the league and he wins a championship.

And I'm not just talking about stats. I'm talking about impact. Other than Lebron, no player has had the impact on wins that David had. He came in and took a team that was the worst in the NBA and made them a 50 win team. A 50 WIN Team. At the time it was the greatest turn around in history. It was later surpassed by Tim Duncan but that was because David didn't play that previous year either and then they both came in to play Tim's rookie Year. David took the record by himself though. Thats not stats. That is Impact. David was better offensively, defensively and whatever. Tim probably guarded Shaq better but thats it. David was a force in the middle that you could not penetrate if he was there.

I bet if you ask Spurs Fans who watched from 89 to present, you will get at least a 50/50 split when asking who was better. And I guarantee no Spur fan will say Tim would of won a ring with those Teams David had in his prime.

tredigs
09-01-2016, 11:35 AM
Thats like saying Lebron never won a thing till he teamed up with Wade and Bosh! Common. His teams were absolute garbage. His rookie season he lead his team to the biggest turn around in NBA history. He turned the worst team into a 50 win team. Proof of having the biggest impact in NBA history ever. Not to mention POP didnt start coaching till Tim got there either. He's underatted as I said. Statistically he is a top 5 center. Statistically he is a top five IMPACT PLAYER ever! No one can win by themselves. Jordan never won with out Pippen and Phil. And he would of been a first round exit on a team as crap as the first team he had. He got into the playoffs with a loosing record. TEAM GAME!


"Proving he had the biggest impact ever" lol c'mon. He was amazing as a rookie for sure, but if you think they'd have won anywhere near the 50+ games they did without also signing Terry Cummings + Mo Cheeks in the off-season you're kidding yourself. "Team game", remember. Also bear in mind that he was a fully matured 24 year old man as a rookie. MJ was the MVP and the DPOY as a 24 year old. Also alluding that he was a better player than Kareem? Nah, not buying that for a second. I remember when MJ was still in his mid-career retirement and D. Rob beasted/snagged the '95 MVP award, we're all thinking, "is he actually the face now? Is he putting it all together and becoming King?". Well, he faced off against Hakeem in the 95 playoffs and we got the answer. Dream PULVERIZED him. I'm looking back at the stats right now. Dream dropped 35/13/5 +1.3 stl and 4.2 blk (56% from the field) on D Rob, who put up 23.8/11.3/2.7 +1.5 stl and 2.2 blk (45% FG). Rodman/Elliot and Avery Johnson all had strong series (and D. Rob was OK for his standards), but it wasn't enough to stop the dominance of a motivated Hakeem Olajuwon, who shredded D Rob for 39/16 in their G6 while D Rob put up 19 on 35% from the field. Olajuwon proved he was still the leagues top center, and a good argument could be made that he was going against the #2 center not in that series, but the Finals against Shaq (who Dream/Houston mind-****ed and swept in 4). Nah, incredible player, but D. Rob isn't winning more titles than The Captain if you switch careers.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 01:11 PM
"Proving he had the biggest impact ever" lol c'mon. He was amazing as a rookie for sure, but if you think they'd have won anywhere near the 50+ games they did without also signing Terry Cummings + Mo Cheeks in the off-season you're kidding yourself. "Team game", remember. Also bear in mind that he was a fully matured 24 year old man as a rookie. MJ was the MVP and the DPOY as a 24 year old. Also alluding that he was a better player than Kareem? Nah, not buying that for a second. I remember when MJ was still in his mid-career retirement and D. Rob beasted/snagged the '95 MVP award, we're all thinking, "is he actually the face now? Is he putting it all together and becoming King?". Well, he faced off against Hakeem in the 95 playoffs and we got the answer. Dream PULVERIZED him. I'm looking back at the stats right now. Dream dropped 35/13/5 +1.3 stl and 4.2 blk (56% from the field) on D Rob, who put up 23.8/11.3/2.7 +1.5 stl and 2.2 blk (45% FG). Rodman/Elliot and Avery Johnson all had strong series (and D. Rob was OK for his standards), but it wasn't enough to stop the dominance of a motivated Hakeem Olajuwon, who shredded D Rob for 39/16 in their G6 while D Rob put up 19 on 35% from the field. Olajuwon proved he was still the leagues top center, and a good argument could be made that he was going against the #2 center not in that series, but the Finals against Shaq (who Dream/Houston mind-****ed and swept in 4). Nah, incredible player, but D. Rob isn't winning more titles than The Captain if you switch careers.

Well speaking of aborations, if you look at all of their battles besides that six game sample size, you will see that Drob played Hakeem even, and if you get down to the nitty gritty, he actually outplayed him. So yeah, one series, when Rodman metled down and refused to go on the court, Dream got David, but for their careers, David and Hakeem were as even as possible. And basically every season, David was better in every statistical category. Every Season. I'll take the career over your 6 game sample size. I guarantee you would/could never use this small of a sample size in any other argument ever. I could prove Anyone is better than anyone in this small a sample size.

Now after you documented Durant's aberrational bad ISO playoffs, don't give me one series as the end all be all.

tredigs
09-01-2016, 02:07 PM
Well speaking of aborations, if you look at all of their battles besides that six game sample size, you will see that Drob played Hakeem even, and if you get down to the nitty gritty, he actually outplayed him. So yeah, one series, when Rodman metled down and refused to go on the court, Dream got David, but for their careers, David and Hakeem were as even as possible. And basically every season, David was better in every statistical category. Every Season. I'll take the career over your 6 game sample size. I guarantee you would/could never use this small of a sample size in any other argument ever. I could prove Anyone is better than anyone in this small a sample size.

Now after you documented Durant's aberrational bad ISO playoffs, don't give me one series as the end all be all.
Lol please. With the revisionist picture you paint of D Rob you'd think he was regaled as the preeminent player of the generation, only slighted due to the shadow of Jordan. I grew up watching the game then, and it just wasn't the case. Outperformed Dream every year? Yeah, no. Absolutely not. I brought up their h2h in the WCF's because it was the peak of David's career - the potential tipping point of him becoming the leagues alpha - and he was eviscerated.

I'm not very concerned with going in depth on an irrelevant subject, but since their careers ran concurrently and we can get a feel for how they fared in the league together, let's take a cursory look at their standard career accolades/stats:

MVP's: Dream 1, DRob 1
AS Appearances: Dream 12, DRob 10 (ditto All-NBA Teams)
All-NBA 1st Teams: Dream 6, DRob 4
Finals MVP's: Dream 2, DRob 0
All-Defensive 1st Team: Dream 5, DRob 4 (9-8 total)
DPOY: Dream 2, DRob 1
Scoring title: Dream 0, DRob 1
Rebound Leader: Dream 2, DRob 1
Block Leader: Dream 3, DRob 1

Career slash:

Hakeem = 21.8/11.1/2.5 on 51.2%/71.2% + 1.7 stl / 3.1 blk.
Robinson = 21.1/10.6/2.5 on 51.8%/73.6% +1.4 stl / 3.0 blk.

Playoff Career slash:

Hakeem = 25.9/11.2/3.2 on 52.8%/71.9% + 1.7 stl /3.3 blk.
Robinson = 18.1/10.6/2.3 on 47.9%/70.8% + 1.2 stl / 2.5 blk.

Take out David's last playoff run (1 of his 2 titles mind you) and he's still just a hair over 20 ppg on even worse efficiency.

^Not exactly what I would call a "aberrations". It just so happens that at his max-peak in full health he was absolutely destroyed in a h2h playoff matchup.


And lastly, the player clearly regarded higher by peers and fans alike who actually saw the totality of their careers? Dream. You're on a WS/48 island with your Robinson take. Hakeem > Robinson. Captain > Robinson. Shaq > Robinson. Wilt > Robinson.

Chronz
09-01-2016, 02:48 PM
Switch David's career path with Jabbar and he has the same rings if not more.

How if he got into the NBA later, retired sooner and lacked the overall longevity/durability of KAJ, not to mention being an inferior player who never raised his game come playoffs....

Again, D-Rob is the greatest disappointment because no one his stature shrunk as much in the playoffs. Hes top-20 but hes not godly good.

Chronz
09-01-2016, 02:49 PM
It's not the same thing but I'll let you figure that out. Statistically doesn't mean better player.. We've gone through this many times and have seen it backfire. He has better stats than Tim Duncan but please do not tell me he is better than Tim Duncan. Just don't, please. Plus, he shrivels up in the playoffs nearly every season.

He has better RS stats but playoff stats, particularly the adjusted rates, are in clear favor of Timmay.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 02:56 PM
Lol please. With the revisionist picture you paint of D Rob you'd think he was regaled as the preeminent player of the generation, only slighted due to the shadow of Jordan. I grew up watching the game then, and it just wasn't the case. Outperformed Dream every year? Yeah, no. Absolutely not. I brought up their h2h in the WCF's because it was the peak of David's career - the potential tipping point of him becoming the leagues alpha - and he was eviscerated.

I'm not very concerned with going in depth on an irrelevant subject, but since their careers ran concurrently and we can get a feel for how they fared in the league together, let's take a cursory look at their standard career accolades/stats:

MVP's: Dream 1, DRob 1
AS Appearances: Dream 12, DRob 10 (ditto All-NBA Teams)
All-NBA 1st Teams: Dream 6, DRob 4
Finals MVP's: Dream 2, DRob 0
All-Defensive 1st Team: Dream 5, DRob 4 (9-8 total)
DPOY: Dream 2, DRob 1
Scoring title: Dream 0, DRob 1
Rebound Leader: Dream 2, DRob 1
Block Leader: Dream 3, DRob 1

Career slash:

Hakeem = 21.8/11.1/2.5 on 51.2%/71.2% + 1.7 stl / 3.1 blk.
Robinson = 21.1/10.6/2.5 on 51.8%/73.6% +1.4 stl / 3.0 blk.

Playoff Career slash:

Hakeem = 25.9/11.2/3.2 on 52.8%/71.9% + 1.7 stl /3.3 blk.
Robinson = 18.1/10.6/2.3 on 47.9%/70.8% + 1.2 stl / 2.5 blk.

Take out David's last playoff run (1 of his 2 titles mind you) and he's still just a hair over 20 ppg on even worse efficiency.

^Not exactly what I would call a "aberrations". It just so happens that at his max-peak in full health he was absolutely destroyed in a h2h playoff matchup.


And lastly, the player clearly regarded higher by peers and fans alike who actually saw the totality of their careers? Dream. You're on a WS/48 island with your Robinson take. Hakeem > Robinson. Captain > Robinson. Shaq > Robinson. Wilt > Robinson.

If you look at 7 year Peak, I'd bet Robinson is ahead of Dream in regular season stats and pretty much any advanced stat you can find. Peak David was every bit as good as Peak Hakeem. Having a diff head coach every season doesnt help

Chronz
09-01-2016, 03:02 PM
"Proving he had the biggest impact ever" lol c'mon. He was amazing as a rookie for sure, but if you think they'd have won anywhere near the 50+ games they did without also signing Terry Cummings + Mo Cheeks in the off-season you're kidding yourself. "Team game", remember. Also bear in mind that he was a fully matured 24 year old man as a rookie. MJ was the MVP and the DPOY as a 24 year old. Also alluding that he was a better player than Kareem? Nah, not buying that for a second. I remember when MJ was still in his mid-career retirement and D. Rob beasted/snagged the '95 MVP award, we're all thinking, "is he actually the face now? Is he putting it all together and becoming King?". Well, he faced off against Hakeem in the 95 playoffs and we got the answer. Dream PULVERIZED him. I'm looking back at the stats right now. Dream dropped 35/13/5 +1.3 stl and 4.2 blk (56% from the field) on D Rob, who put up 23.8/11.3/2.7 +1.5 stl and 2.2 blk (45% FG). Rodman/Elliot and Avery Johnson all had strong series (and D. Rob was OK for his standards), but it wasn't enough to stop the dominance of a motivated Hakeem Olajuwon, who shredded D Rob for 39/16 in their G6 while D Rob put up 19 on 35% from the field. Olajuwon proved he was still the leagues top center, and a good argument could be made that he was going against the #2 center not in that series, but the Finals against Shaq (who Dream/Houston mind-****ed and swept in 4). Nah, incredible player, but D. Rob isn't winning more titles than The Captain if you switch careers.

Pretty sure they also added another lotto pick, Sean Elliot that year.

tredigs
09-01-2016, 03:21 PM
If you look at 7 year Peak, I'd bet Robinson is ahead of Dream in regular season stats and pretty much any advanced stat you can find. Peak David was every bit as good as Peak Hakeem. Having a diff head coach every season doesnt help

Now it's 7 years. Why would I look at 7 years when Hakeem has a wider body of dominance than that? We're supposed to ignore that? Bear in mind, during DRob's 7 year peak in the early/mid 90's Dream has 4 top-5 MVP seasons (including an MVP), three All-NBA 1st Teams (All-NBA each year), 2 Defensive Player of the Year Awards, and 2 championships including 2 Finals MVP's. Oh, and one complete dismantling of Robinson during his peak season. Bear in mind that's after the multiple All-NBA 1st Teams and a 28/12 +2 stl/3.5 blk playoff average in >40 playoff games in the 80's before D Rob was even in the league. Both being done as marquee players at the same time by the year 2000.

Chronz
09-01-2016, 03:23 PM
24/12/3 average in playoffs his first 7 seasons. If thats shriveling then that means he was otherworldy in the regular season.
Which included many upsets, getting outplayed and represented a clear drop off from his established level of play.


And Yes, I am telling you he was better than Tim Duncan. I watched all of both of there careers. Drob was unstoppable.
But thats not true, he was stopped far more often.


He just never had the coach or the players that Tim did. You give Rookie David Robinson a 3o year old David Robinson when he comes into the league and he wins a championship.

Nah, both D-Robs see their level of play drop off drastically and get upset at some point. You needed a Duncan. We saw how D-Rob failed to lead the Spurs with a rookie Duncan when he still laid some sort of claim. Hell, you yourself included it in the first 7 seasons. It wasn't until Duncan took the mantle from D-Rob that they became champs.


And I'm not just talking about stats. I'm talking about impact. Other than Lebron, no player has had the impact on wins that David had. He came in and took a team that was the worst in the NBA and made them a 50 win team. A 50 WIN Team. At the time it was the greatest turn around in history. It was later surpassed by Tim Duncan but that was because David didn't play that previous year either and then they both came in to play Tim's rookie Year. David took the record by himself though. Thats not stats. That is Impact. David was better offensively, defensively and whatever. Tim probably guarded Shaq better but thats it. David was a force in the middle that you could not penetrate if he was there.

Thats why hes top-20. Cuz he was a legit superstar in the RS and a total failure in the playoffs. Gimme the guy who wins me slightly less RS games but will win me significantly more playoff games.


I bet if you ask Spurs Fans who watched from 89 to present, you will get at least a 50/50 split when asking who was better. And I guarantee no Spur fan will say Tim would of won a ring with those Teams David had in his prime.

You really dont. I've asked this before and have seen nothing to suggest this.


Well speaking of aborations, if you look at all of their battles besides that six game sample size, you will see that Drob played Hakeem even, and if you get down to the nitty gritty, he actually outplayed him. So yeah, one series, when Rodman metled down and refused to go on the court, Dream got David, but for their careers, David and Hakeem were as even as possible. And basically every season, David was better in every statistical category. Every Season. I'll take the career over your 6 game sample size. I guarantee you would/could never use this small of a sample size in any other argument ever. I could prove Anyone is better than anyone in this small a sample size.

Now after you documented Durant's aberrational bad ISO playoffs, don't give me one series as the end all be all.
It wasn't just Rodman melting down, D-Rob was too much of a ***** to take over control of the team. Avery Johnson told the gang that D-Rob wasn't going to carry them, prolly cuz he knew it wasn't the RS anymore. And D-Rob gets part of the blame for clashing with Rodman, couldn't stop preaching his religion to him, what kind of leader does that?

BTW, when did Rodman refuse to go on the court? I remember he refused to do was defend Hakeem, thinking that he should be used in the 2nd half for that purpose. I remember him not joining team huddles and I think I remember him refusing to defend Horry and opted to chase rebounds.

But I also remember the series was 2-2 before they benched him and Houston took full advantage early. It was a bad clash but that doesn't exonerate D-Rob from doing his part. When Duncan lost and didn't have the horses to hang, he thoroughly dominated. He didn't go out in a whimper like D-Rob.


And its not just the series vs Hakeem, its EVERY series of his career vs EVERY series of theirs.

When true goats dont have the teammates or the coaches, they dont suffer as much as D-Rob does.

tredigs
09-01-2016, 03:26 PM
Pretty sure they also added another lotto pick, Sean Elliot that year.

They did, he was a top pick. Also year 2 of Willie Anderson who was their #1 option as a rookie. Much better suited as a #3.

But yeah, clearly an entirely different team. The fact that he has this notion that D Rob is the sole catalyst for the win differential is pretty crazy, but in line with his overall take on Robinson.

Chronz
09-01-2016, 03:34 PM
Robinsons problem was that he didn't have a coast mode. Guys like Shaq, Hakeem and the rest all paced themselves and come playoffs, they cranked it up a notch. Whereas D-Rob was always going full bore, had nothing to counter when teams physically took him out of the game.

Like you guys can talk about the Hakeem series all you want but the series losses vs Karl Malone's Jazz the year prior and after were far more humiliating, not because he lost but because he was bullied. His worst series was prolly the upset at the hands of the Dubs. There are soo many disappointments to point out with David its really hard to pinpoint it but the total evisceration at the hands of Malone will always stand out most.

D-Robs lack of a post-game is what held him back come playoffs, he was basically a tall SF out there, one that relied too much on his face up game. Karl Malone defended him way better than vice versa. Hakeem abused him with his superior skill, will, leadership and mentality. Peak Shaq was just overwhelming for any 1 man.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 06:01 PM
They did, he was a top pick. Also year 2 of Willie Anderson who was their #1 option as a rookie. Much better suited as a #3.

But yeah, clearly an entirely different team. The fact that he has this notion that D Rob is the sole catalyst for the win differential is pretty crazy, but in line with his overall take on Robinson.

Jordan wouldn't win a damn thing with Sean Elliot and Willie Anderson as his 2nd and 3rd

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 06:02 PM
Robinsons problem was that he didn't have a coast mode. Guys like Shaq, Hakeem and the rest all paced themselves and come playoffs, they cranked it up a notch. Whereas D-Rob was always going full bore, had nothing to counter when teams physically took him out of the game.

Like you guys can talk about the Hakeem series all you want but the series losses vs Karl Malone's Jazz the year prior and after were far more humiliating, not because he lost but because he was bullied. His worst series was prolly the upset at the hands of the Dubs. There are soo many disappointments to point out with David its really hard to pinpoint it but the total evisceration at the hands of Malone will always stand out most.

D-Robs lack of a post-game is what held him back come playoffs, he was basically a tall SF out there, one that relied too much on his face up game. Karl Malone defended him way better than vice versa. Hakeem abused him with his superior skill, will, leadership and mentality. Peak Shaq was just overwhelming for any 1 man.

His teams were not built for championships. No player ever wins a ring with those guys. He had to ball for them to do anything.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 06:04 PM
They did, he was a top pick. Also year 2 of Willie Anderson who was their #1 option as a rookie. Much better suited as a #3.

But yeah, clearly an entirely different team. The fact that he has this notion that D Rob is the sole catalyst for the win differential is pretty crazy, but in line with his overall take on Robinson.

Yeah and Bomb --- Willie Anderson led them to the #1 pick the next year with probably the worst record in team history. When you start defending your stance with Willie Anderson, that when you need to stop.

tredigs
09-01-2016, 06:35 PM
Yeah and Bomb --- Willie Anderson led them to the #1 pick the next year with probably the worst record in team history. When you start defending your stance with Willie Anderson, that when you need to stop.

Lmao. He was a rookie bud. Hence me saying he had no business as a teams #1. The moment you don't understand that him as a rookie/#1 option is a far cry from him as a sophomore/#3 option along with Sean Elliot (who came in as a 4 year college player/runner-up to Player of the Year/top-guard in the draft), along with Terry Cummings (coming fresh off an All-NBA selection) and veteran Mo Cheeks (who was upgraded before the playoffs to Rod Strickland) YOU need to stop. You want me to gloss over Willie Anderson who fit very well as a #3 (and put up a solid 21/5/5 in the playoffs for them)? No thanks. It's very relevant. That team was NIGHT AND DAY with or without Robinson. That's what you don't seem to accept. Give me a 23 yr old Rik Smits instead of D. Rob and that team is still winning 45+ games and making the playoffs.

Chronz
09-01-2016, 06:40 PM
His teams were not built for championships. No player ever wins a ring with those guys. He had to ball for them to do anything.

Agreed, its a good thing my complaint wasn't that he should have won a championship, otherwise this would have been a great point.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 10:58 PM
Lmao. He was a rookie bud. Hence me saying he had no business as a teams #1. The moment you don't understand that him as a rookie/#1 option is a far cry from him as a sophomore/#3 option along with Sean Elliot (who came in as a 4 year college player/runner-up to Player of the Year/top-guard in the draft), along with Terry Cummings (coming fresh off an All-NBA selection) and veteran Mo Cheeks (who was upgraded before the playoffs to Rod Strickland) YOU need to stop. You want me to gloss over Willie Anderson who fit very well as a #3 (and put up a solid 21/5/5 in the playoffs for them)? No thanks. It's very relevant. That team was NIGHT AND DAY with or without Robinson. That's what you don't seem to accept. Give me a 23 yr old Rik Smits instead of D. Rob and that team is still winning 45+ games and making the playoffs.

So you bring up how he must of mattered so much as a second year guy, and Sean Elliots Rookie season, yet you LYAO at Willie as a Rookie. Dude you are being about as inconsistent as humanly possible to try and prove what exactly?

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 11:00 PM
Lmao. He was a rookie bud. Hence me saying he had no business as a teams #1. The moment you don't understand that him as a rookie/#1 option is a far cry from him as a sophomore/#3 option along with Sean Elliot (who came in as a 4 year college player/runner-up to Player of the Year/top-guard in the draft), along with Terry Cummings (coming fresh off an All-NBA selection) and veteran Mo Cheeks (who was upgraded before the playoffs to Rod Strickland) YOU need to stop. You want me to gloss over Willie Anderson who fit very well as a #3 (and put up a solid 21/5/5 in the playoffs for them)? No thanks. It's very relevant. That team was NIGHT AND DAY with or without Robinson. That's what you don't seem to accept. Give me a 23 yr old Rik Smits instead of D. Rob and that team is still winning 45+ games and making the playoffs.

Your on crack! Did you see what happened to the Spurs when David got hurt? Yeah thats right, they were so awful that they were able to get Tim Duncan the next year. David was that team. Take him off and that team is lottery and the proof is there homie because it actually happened!

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 11:02 PM
David Robinson has 10 years where his Win Share/48 is better than Hakeems best Year in the regular season!!!!!!

Hakeem has 2 years where his Win Share/48 is better than David's best year in the the playoffs

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 11:09 PM
David has 6 years where his PER is higher than Dream's best year in the regular season

Dream has 1 year where his PER is higher than Drob's best year in the playoffs

Lionel20
09-01-2016, 11:15 PM
Lol please. With the revisionist picture you paint of D Rob you'd think he was regaled as the preeminent player of the generation, only slighted due to the shadow of Jordan. I grew up watching the game then, and it just wasn't the case. Outperformed Dream every year? Yeah, no. Absolutely not. I brought up their h2h in the WCF's because it was the peak of David's career - the potential tipping point of him becoming the leagues alpha - and he was eviscerated.

I'm not very concerned with going in depth on an irrelevant subject, but since their careers ran concurrently and we can get a feel for how they fared in the league together, let's take a cursory look at their standard career accolades/stats:

MVP's: Dream 1, DRob 1
AS Appearances: Dream 12, DRob 10 (ditto All-NBA Teams)
All-NBA 1st Teams: Dream 6, DRob 4
Finals MVP's: Dream 2, DRob 0
All-Defensive 1st Team: Dream 5, DRob 4 (9-8 total)
DPOY: Dream 2, DRob 1
Scoring title: Dream 0, DRob 1
Rebound Leader: Dream 2, DRob 1
Block Leader: Dream 3, DRob 1

Career slash:

Hakeem = 21.8/11.1/2.5 on 51.2%/71.2% + 1.7 stl / 3.1 blk.
Robinson = 21.1/10.6/2.5 on 51.8%/73.6% +1.4 stl / 3.0 blk.

Playoff Career slash:

Hakeem = 25.9/11.2/3.2 on 52.8%/71.9% + 1.7 stl /3.3 blk.
Robinson = 18.1/10.6/2.3 on 47.9%/70.8% + 1.2 stl / 2.5 blk.

Take out David's last playoff run (1 of his 2 titles mind you) and he's still just a hair over 20 ppg on even worse efficiency.

^Not exactly what I would call a "aberrations". It just so happens that at his max-peak in full health he was absolutely destroyed in a h2h playoff matchup.


And lastly, the player clearly regarded higher by peers and fans alike who actually saw the totality of their careers? Dream. You're on a WS/48 island with your Robinson take. Hakeem > Robinson. Captain > Robinson. Shaq > Robinson. Wilt > Robinson.

Olajuwon, RS & PS, logged over 11,500 more minutes than Robinson -- the equivalent of about 4 full seasons. But if your criteria for the greater player only includes career totals then, no doubt, Robert Parish is a fringe top-5 Center All-time.

I prefer to combine longevity and extended peak in my metric.

Olajuwon's Single Seasons' Player Rank
*Playoff #'s included
*Based on Value Shares

'85 - 11th best player in the NBA
'86 - 2nd best player
'87 - 6th
'88 - 11th
'89 - 4th

So 5 seasons prior to Robinson's Rookie Year, Olajuwon is already arguably a top -5 NBA player. Robinson retires one season after Olajuwon. Adv = Olajuwon

Olajuwon & Robinson's Single Seasons' Player Rank

'90 Olajuwon = 9th best player in the NBA
'90 Robinson = 4th best player in the NBA

'91 Olajuwon = 34th ranked *only played the equivalent of 57 games
'91 Robinson = 5th ranked

'92 Olajuwon = 22nd
'92 Robinson = 11th

'93 Olajuwon = 3rd
'93 Robinson = 4th

'94 Olajuwon = 1st
'94 Robinson = 2nd

'95 Olajuwon = 3rd
'95 Robinson = 2nd

'96 Olajuwon = 6th
'96 Robinson = 2nd

'97 Olajuwon = 5th
'97 Robinson = 304th *Only played the equivalent of 6 games

'98 Olajuwon = 98th
'98 Robinson = 6th

'99 Olajuwon = 11th *Strike-Shortened
'99 Robinson = 5th *Strike-Shortened

'00 Olajuwon = 198th
'00 Robinson = 11th

'01 Olajuwon = 94th
'01 Robinson = 14th

'02 Olajuwon = 165th
'02 Robinson = 40th

'03 Olajuwon -- Retires --
'03 Robinson = 63rd

Olajuwon Career (1985 - 02) avg. Player Rank = 38th
Robinson Career (1990 - 03) avg. Player Rank = 34th

Seasons where Olajuwon & Robinson both active:

Olajuwon (1990 - 02) avg. Player Rank = 50th
Robinson (1990 - 02) avg. Player Rank = 31st

Adv = Robinson

But ultimately, and without all the details, when you factor in the 5 seasons Olajuwon played (1985 - 89) where his Avg. Player Rank = 7th, and the 1 Season Robinson played following Olajuwon's retirement where he ranked 63rd, Olajuwon comes out slightly ahead as the best Center.

In my all-time Rankings, Olajuwon is the 10th best player all-time, Robinson is the 11th.

Chamberlain = 9th best player all-time
Jabbar = 6th all-time
Shaq = 2nd all-time

I can explain my methodology further if you'd like, but basically Olajuwon is the 4th best Center all-time, Robinson 5th, trialing by only .71 points.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 11:18 PM
Probably can't find another player with WS and PER domination to this extent where you would say the other player is better. David at his best was better than Hakeem, but at his worst he was worse than Hakeem.

Lionel20
09-01-2016, 11:19 PM
I do think David Robinson is one of the most underrated players all-time. A lot of ppl have him high teens & Bill Russell over him -- which I think is completely misguided.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2016, 11:26 PM
Olajuwon, RS & PS, logged over 11,500 more minutes than Robinson -- the equivalent of about 4 full seasons. But if your criteria for the greater player only includes career totals then, no doubt, Robert Parish is a fringe top-5 Center All-time.

I prefer to combine longevity and extended peak in my metric.

Olajuwon's Single Seasons' Player Rank
*Playoff #'s included
*Based on Value Shares

'85 - 11th best player in the NBA
'86 - 2nd best player
'87 - 6th
'88 - 11th
'89 - 4th

So 5 seasons prior to Robinson's Rookie Year, Olajuwon is already arguably a top -5 NBA player. Robinson retires one season after Olajuwon. Adv = Olajuwon

Olajuwon & Robinson's Single Seasons' Player Rank

'90 Olajuwon = 9th best player in the NBA
'90 Robinson = 4th best player in the NBA

'91 Olajuwon = 34th ranked *only played the equivalent of 57 games
'91 Robinson = 5th ranked

'92 Olajuwon = 22nd
'92 Robinson = 11th

'93 Olajuwon = 3rd
'93 Robinson = 4th

'94 Olajuwon = 1st
'94 Robinson = 2nd

'95 Olajuwon = 3rd
'95 Robinson = 2nd

'96 Olajuwon = 6th
'96 Robinson = 2nd

'97 Olajuwon = 5th
'97 Robinson = 304th *Only played the equivalent of 6 games

'98 Olajuwon = 98th
'98 Robinson = 6th

'99 Olajuwon = 11th *Strike-Shortened
'99 Robinson = 5th *Strike-Shortened

'00 Olajuwon = 198th
'00 Robinson = 11th

'01 Olajuwon = 94th
'01 Robinson = 14th

'02 Olajuwon = 165th
'02 Robinson = 40th

'03 Olajuwon -- Retires --
'03 Robinson = 63rd

Olajuwon Career (1985 - 02) avg. Player Rank = 38th
Robinson Career (1990 - 03) avg. Player Rank = 34th

Seasons where Olajuwon & Robinson both active:

Olajuwon (1990 - 02) avg. Player Rank = 50th
Robinson (1990 - 02) avg. Player Rank = 31st

Adv = Robinson

But ultimately, and without all the details, when you factor in the 5 seasons Olajuwon played (1985 - 89) where his Avg. Player Rank = 7th, and the 1 Season Robinson played following Olajuwon's retirement where he ranked 63rd, Olajuwon comes out slightly ahead as the best Center.

In my all-time Rankings, Olajuwon is the 10th best player all-time, Robinson is the 11th.

Chamberlain = 9th best player all-time
Jabbar = 6th all-time
Shaq = 2nd all-time

I can explain my methodology further if you'd like, but basically Olajuwon is the 4th best Center all-time, Robinson 5th, trialing by only .71 points.

Probably the most accurate portrayal I've seen.
During that time nobody actual thought Dream was better than Drob till after that playoff where Dream killed. Up until then most people thought Drob was better, and he performed better up until that point. As you depicted, there was a good span where David was flat out better than Hakeem, and that was during the 24-28 year age range, when players are at there athletic peak. David was a monster.

At the end of the day you are saying what I believe, and that is Hakeem and David were about as close as any two players ever were.

FlashBolt
09-02-2016, 12:09 PM
David Robinson absolutely underperforms in the playoffs. He was known as emotionally incapable of leading a team. His teammates called him out for it during the playoffs. You used advanced statistics for D.Rob as evidence of his greatness and then proceeded to say he didn't underperform in the playoffs. Yet, why is his advanced statistics for the playoffs much lower than his regular season? D.Rob was a great regular season player but he truly never had an answer when come playoff time, he had difficulty adjusting his game instead of relying on his athleticism and power. Chronz mentioned this and it's why you saw players like Hakeem and Shaq dominate while D.Rob could not be relied on to carry you. Hakeem+Shaq were unstoppable forces. D.Rob was stoppable. Why? He lacked a legitimate post game. Again, relied heavily on his athleticism and power. He was terrible playing on his backside and usually ended up just chucking a very low percentage shot. And sorry but I really find it tough to believe that anyone would put D.Rob over Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan was consistent all over. He was a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. Tim Duncan does not shrivel up in the playoffs and during his prime when he was the 1st option, his increased level of performance in the playoffs was amazing.

IKnowHoops
09-02-2016, 01:04 PM
David Robinson absolutely underperforms in the playoffs. He was known as emotionally incapable of leading a team. His teammates called him out for it during the playoffs. You used advanced statistics for D.Rob as evidence of his greatness and then proceeded to say he didn't underperform in the playoffs. Yet, why is his advanced statistics for the playoffs much lower than his regular season? D.Rob was a great regular season player but he truly never had an answer when come playoff time, he had difficulty adjusting his game instead of relying on his athleticism and power. Chronz mentioned this and it's why you saw players like Hakeem and Shaq dominate while D.Rob could not be relied on to carry you. Hakeem+Shaq were unstoppable forces. D.Rob was stoppable. Why? He lacked a legitimate post game. Again, relied heavily on his athleticism and power. He was terrible playing on his backside and usually ended up just chucking a very low percentage shot. And sorry but I really find it tough to believe that anyone would put D.Rob over Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan was consistent all over. He was a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. Tim Duncan does not shrivel up in the playoffs and during his prime when he was the 1st option, his increased level of performance in the playoffs was amazing.

Among other things, this is a terrible statement based on the fact that he was a more prolific and more efficient scorer than Hakeem.

Both Hakeem and Shaq had great coaches, and stable coaching throughout there prime and they were both sourrounded by better talent. David never had stable coaching, and much like Lebron was too good for his own good. His presence meant you would win 50 games a year and never be able to acquire any pieces through the draft. Had Pop been coaching him his entire career and brought in championship talent, they would of won in his prime.

Oh yeah, can you give me a link where anyone beside Rodman called David out?

IKnowHoops
09-02-2016, 01:16 PM
Now here's an interesting read about DRob

David Robinson is a former NBA MVP, perennial All-Star, and a key member of the San Antonio Spurs Championship teams of 1999 and 2003, his last year in the NBA. In a 1999 Sports Illustrated article, the author gets to the heart of Robinson’s Christian faith.

David Robinson’s heart went to Jesus on June 8, 1991. He proudly notes it is “my second birthday”. Yet he is caught in this most secular of modern creations, professional sport with its instant gratification, easy adulation, and flowing beer taps. Money? It is paid for a rebound, for a jump shot, for a simple smile. Fame? Instant. Sex? Easy. Drugs? Certainly available.
Rock and Roll? Every timeout.

The door that is open here can lead to a level of hedonism that wasn’t even invented when the Old Testament prophets went to their writing tablets, an expansion of ego that the pharoahs couldn’t have imagined.

Robinson has felt himself taken by these NBA tides toward destruction, felt a loss of control. Nobody else might have noticed, but he did. He has found the answer that works for him. He is a Christian. The opponent every day and night on the schedule is sin. David Robinson versus sin. David Robinson versus all the seven deadly sins; pride, lust, greed, gluttony, sloth, anger, and envy. Every day, every night. It is a never-ending season.
“Tell me one thing” David would say to his normal friends after his trips to NBA activities right after he was drafted. “Tell me if I ever change, if my head ever starts to get bigger.” Two years into his career his head was getting bigger. His friends didn’t see it, no one said he was becoming a jerk, but he felt it. He was hanging around with people who told him only things he wanted to hear, mostly how great he was. He easily won the NBA Rookie of the Year in ‘90. He was rich. He was surely great. He believed that. In a way. “What surprised me was that I wasn’t happy. Here I had everything I ever wanted. I looked at myself and I didn’t like the person I was becoming. I felt I was so important. I had a selfishness and arrogance”.
David was neither a smoker nor a drinker. But he found himself in clubs on the road, vaguely searching for a “nice girl”. He wanted more, yet he had everything. So what was more? He didn’t know. He had felt in college that he always was learning and growing. He felt in the NBA he was regressing, forgetting lessons he had learned.
Religion had never been a big part of his life. He had been a nominal Christian, forced to go to church on Sundays by his mother, but he had never shown great interest in the faith. When Greg Ball, a locker room evangelist from the group Champions for Christ, showed up, David put him off for several months. When they finally sat down, the conversation was supposed to last several minutes. It stretched to 5 hours. “His purpose, his life focus, wasn’t established,” Ball says. “Here was this wonderful person, this superstar, but he was unhappy. He was a god of his own life. All of these guys in the NBA are gods of their own lives. I told him it doesn’t matter if you get all the Mercedes that are made, if you don’t have a focus, it’s like you’re standing in front of a painted fire, trying to keep warm.”
Robinson said; “I’d always told myself I was a good guy, no matter what I’d done. I think everybody tells himself that. The question is, whose definition of a good guy are you using? Your own?” He now had a different definition.
After being married, David enjoys spending as much time as possible at home with his wife and children. “I hear other players talking about ways to get out of the house.” He wonders about that. “I try to find ways to get back to the house. That’s where my true life is. I hear stories about the free-love life and notice that often they are followed by postscripts about domestic abuse, paternity suits, divorce and sexually transmitted diseases.”
A traditional knock against born-again athletes is that they don’t have a win-or-else passion for their games. But Robinson says his faith has helped him. He has realized that playing Basketball is his gift. His duty is to make the most of this gift that he can. “I’m not playing for the fans or the money, but to honor God. I know my motivation. I know where I’m headed.
Every night I try to go out there to honor Him and play great.”
Those around him might disagree with his beliefs and his words sometimes. But can there be disagreements with the way he lives his life? He walks through all the commercial hellfires that man has invented and comes out just fine. He prospers. I didn’t know him at all when I came here” said Will Perdue. “I’d played against him, but he never talks when he’s playing. I wondered about that. Was he stuck up? When you get here and see how he is, how he acts, how can you not like him? He doesn’t push anything on anyone, but you know exactly where he stands.”

FlashBolt
09-02-2016, 02:46 PM
Among other things, this is a terrible statement based on the fact that he was a more prolific and more efficient scorer than Hakeem.

Both Hakeem and Shaq had great coaches, and stable coaching throughout there prime and they were both sourrounded by better talent. David never had stable coaching, and much like Lebron was too good for his own good. His presence meant you would win 50 games a year and never be able to acquire any pieces through the draft. Had Pop been coaching him his entire career and brought in championship talent, they would of won in his prime.

Oh yeah, can you give me a link where anyone beside Rodman called David out?

"Avery Johnson stood up in the locker room, in front of the whole team and most of all the team's management, and said, "We can't wait for David Robinson to take us, because he ain't going to be there for us."

This is what Dennis Rodman wrote in his book. Idk how true it is but who's to question him? No one has. BTW, Avery was one of David's favorite teammates.

Secondly, more prolific scorer and efficient than Hakeem? More efficient doesn't mean you're a better scorer. D.Rob's game was geared being closer to the basket and he got to it due to his quickness and athleticism. He was Dwight Howard before Dwight Howard arrived. But Hakeem could get you anywhere on the court. He's more prolific than Hakeem? Okay, so why wasn't he more prolific in the playoffs? Can you explain the deficiencies in his "prolific" scoring when it came to the playoffs? Huge dropoff in production and results. Why?

And I'm sick of the "he would have won because of this and this."
David Robinson underperformed in the playoffs in years where he dominated in the regular season. He wasn't a player who could lead you to the championships and it's why until Tim got there, David Robinson couldn't win. Tim is a true leader by example. David Robinson didn't know where to start. The reason I'm not even going to question Rodman's claim that Avery said those things is strictly due to me knowing that David Robinson sounds like the guy who looks like the Terminator but sounds like barbie.

IKnowHoops
09-02-2016, 06:10 PM
"Avery Johnson stood up in the locker room, in front of the whole team and most of all the team's management, and said, "We can't wait for David Robinson to take us, because he ain't going to be there for us."

This is what Dennis Rodman wrote in his book. Idk how true it is but who's to question him? No one has. BTW, Avery was one of David's favorite teammates.

Secondly, more prolific scorer and efficient than Hakeem? More efficient doesn't mean you're a better scorer. D.Rob's game was geared being closer to the basket and he got to it due to his quickness and athleticism. He was Dwight Howard before Dwight Howard arrived. But Hakeem could get you anywhere on the court. He's more prolific than Hakeem? Okay, so why wasn't he more prolific in the playoffs? Can you explain the deficiencies in his "prolific" scoring when it came to the playoffs? Huge dropoff in production and results. Why?

And I'm sick of the "he would have won because of this and this."
David Robinson underperformed in the playoffs in years where he dominated in the regular season. He wasn't a player who could lead you to the championships and it's why until Tim got there, David Robinson couldn't win. Tim is a true leader by example. David Robinson didn't know where to start. The reason I'm not even going to question Rodman's claim that Avery said those things is strictly due to me knowing that David Robinson sounds like the guy who looks like the Terminator but sounds like barbie.

When PoP started coaching. He scored more than Hakeem, and he was more efficient at doing so. So yes by every statistical measure available, he was a better scorer.

You compare him to Dwight Howard? Now I have to really question your ability to rate Drob. David had the same range as Hakeem!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-NRWNX7Z7Y

What part of his game reminds you of Dwight?!?! As he unmercifully drops 52 on Zo. Please please tell me how he is like Dwight (I can't shoot from outside of 3 feet) Howard LMFAO

tredigs
09-02-2016, 11:07 PM
Lol iknowhoops. I do appreciate the love. Fact is man everyone who saw their histories unfold live and know the day to day + post season of the man know he did not approach the top 5 all time status you hold him to. Advanced Stats may not quite yet understand D Rob's fail as a pantheon great, but I witnessed his career in whole, and I sure did.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 12:58 AM
Lol iknowhoops. I do appreciate the love. Fact is man everyone who saw their histories unfold live and know the day to day + post season of the man know he did not approach the top 5 all time status you hold him to. Advanced Stats may not quite yet understand D Rob's fail as a pantheon great, but I witnessed his career in whole, and I sure did.

I don't have him top 5. Here is my list. (Based off Peak)

1.Lebron
2.Jordan
3.Shaq
4.Kareem
5.Wilt
6.Dream
7.Drob
8.Duncan
9.KJ
10.Durant

I do however believe the bold are interchangeable

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 10:20 AM
When PoP started coaching. He scored more than Hakeem, and he was more efficient at doing so. So yes by every statistical measure available, he was a better scorer.

You compare him to Dwight Howard? Now I have to really question your ability to rate Drob. David had the same range as Hakeem!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-NRWNX7Z7Y

What part of his game reminds you of Dwight?!?! As he unmercifully drops 52 on Zo. Please please tell me how he is like Dwight (I can't shoot from outside of 3 feet) Howard LMFAO

1) I never compared him to Dwight Howard in terms of playing ability. Clearly I'd rather have D.Rob over Dwight. I was comparing their physique and athleticism. Their bodies were very similar in that they were long, big, muscular, and both were exceptional at getting from one end of the basket to another.
2) When Pop started coaching or when Tim Duncan came along? Tim was the better player since year 1. He has been and will always be.
3) He wasn't a better scorer than Hakeem and even if I concede that he was, can you please explain his playoffs struggle? At least with a guy like LeBron having to carry his team, he also did so in the playoffs. Why is it D.Rob failed to keep that same level of play in the playoffs? His production and efficiency drops big time. His advanced numbers plummet. Yet, those are the two barometers you use to measure his success. Also, in regards to their range, Hakeem was more consistent and took more shots outside of the basket. D.Rob could do it too but it was nowhere the consistency Hakeem did it at. You're comparing two different players. D.Rob was not half as skilled as Hakeem at scoring. Think about it, who do players pay thousands of dollars to learn from? Certainly not D.Rob.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 10:23 AM
I don't have him top 5. Here is my list. (Based off Peak)

1.Lebron
2.Jordan
3.Shaq
4.Kareem
5.Wilt
6.Dream
7.Drob
8.Duncan
9.KJ
10.Durant

I do however believe the bold are interchangeable

You're willing to put D.Rob that high based off peak? So I'm guessing you're rating them strictly off regular season, right? Because if you add the playoffs into it, D.Rob doesn't belong in the top ten. Every single player (outside of DROB/KD/KJ) dominated and won during their prime. Is that KJ as in Kevin Johnson? Or KJ McDaniels?

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 12:41 PM
You're willing to put D.Rob that high based off peak? So I'm guessing you're rating them strictly off regular season, right? Because if you add the playoffs into it, D.Rob doesn't belong in the top ten. Every single player (outside of DROB/KD/KJ) dominated and won during their prime. Is that KJ as in Kevin Johnson? Or KJ McDaniels?
Meant KG. But it's no coincidence that all the other guys that dominated in the playoffs did so with 2 or 3 hall of famers and a hall of game coach. Let's look at who David's best player he played with

David-Sean Elliot/Coach Lucas
KG-Latrell/Cassell/

Kareem-Magic/Oscar/Worthy/Pat
Shaq-Kobe/Penny/Phil
Duncan-Drob/Parker/Manu/Pop
Dream-Clyde/Jet/Rudy T
Lebron-Wade/Kyrie/Bosh/Love

Do you see a Trend? Put David on a team with Magic and Worthy. Che may be considered the GOAT right now.

In the playoffs teams key in on you. And being a center with no playmakers around you, teams doubled and tripled David with no regard for his awful cast. Beverly team he was on was a lottery team without him. KG can probably make a similar claim. Think how many rings KG would have if he were able to play with Ray and Paul Pierce his whole career? What if David could of played with Lebron, like Kobe got to play with Shaq. I'd bet David and Bron would get 5-7 rings together through there Prime. David also missed out on 3 seasons of 24/12/4 type stats because of the Navy.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 01:06 PM
You're willing to put D.Rob that high based off peak? So I'm guessing you're rating them strictly off regular season, right? Because if you add the playoffs into it, D.Rob doesn't belong in the top ten. Every single player (outside of DROB/KD/KJ) dominated and won during their prime. Is that KJ as in Kevin Johnson? Or KJ McDaniels?

If I was going strictly off regular season, Dream may not make my top 10.

Again David Robinson has TEN seasons of WS48 that are better than Hakeems best year

Think about that

Again David had SIX seasons of PER better than Hakeems best year

Think about that

You can't find two players where the domination is that drastic from an advanced stats aspect where the lesser is better. David was on crap teams. He got keyed on, and being a center, a guy who needs the ball passed to him, and having awful coaching, where coaches can't come up with game plans, bad playoffs can happen. He had good playoff performances as well.

In the 90-91 playoffs,

David Lead the playoffs in TS% with .760, lead the Playoffs in Reb with 13.5, lead the playoffs in blocks with 3.8, yet he only averaged 25.8 pts a game.

He's your center, teamates have to pass him the ball, Coaches have to create a game plan that gets him the ball. This shows inept coaching, and inept teammates. Maybe Willie Anderson thought he was the man. Or maybe Terry Cummings thought he needed to get his shots.

I watched tons of Drob, Ive seen him be more unstoppable than any player in history. Your just not able to see what he would of been with Hall of fame talent and coaching like the other guys were afforded. He had absolute dirt coaching accept for one year of his prime with Larry Brown. He had absolute dirt supporting cast every year of his prime.

Once Tim came, he was no longer that Dominant guy. He was 30 post injury and had lost several steps by this point. Prime David with two Hall of famers in there Prime to play with like a Magic, or a Bird or a myriad of players you may have above him, would result in you putting him top 5 ever. David single handedly could make any team a 50 win team. And he proved that by coming, and by getting hurt and they fell off a freaking cliff. Only Lebron has been able to do the same. Hakeem didn't do that, even Kareem missed playoffs in his PRIME.

If I was going strictly off regular season, Drob is top 5 easily.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 01:12 PM
Meant KG. But it's no coincidence that all the other guys that dominated in the playoffs did so with 2 or 3 hall of famers and a hall of game coach. Let's look at who David's best player he played with

David-Sean Elliot/Coach Lucas
KG-Latrell/Cassell/

Kareem-Magic/Oscar/Worthy/Pat
Shaq-Kobe/Penny/Phil
Duncan-Drob/Parker/Manu/Pop
Dream-Clyde/Jet/Rudy T
Lebron-Wade/Kyrie/Bosh/Love

Do you see a Trend? Put David on a team with Magic and Worthy. Che may be considered the GOAT right now.

In the playoffs teams key in on you. And being a center with no playmakers around you, teams doubled and tripled David with no regard for his awful cast. Beverly team he was on was a lottery team without him. KG can probably make a similar claim. Think how many rings KG would have if he were able to play with Ray and Paul Pierce his whole career? What if David could of played with Lebron, like Kobe got to play with Shaq. I'd bet David and Bron would get 5-7 rings together through there Prime. David also missed out on 3 seasons of 24/12/4 type stats because of the Navy.

Barring Injury, with a Pop/Phil type coach, they would win every year of there Prime.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 01:14 PM
Meant KG. But it's no coincidence that all the other guys that dominated in the playoffs did so with 2 or 3 hall of famers and a hall of game coach. Let's look at who David's best player he played with

David-Sean Elliot/Coach Lucas
KG-Latrell/Cassell/

Kareem-Magic/Oscar/Worthy/Pat
Shaq-Kobe/Penny/Phil
Duncan-Drob/Parker/Manu/Pop
Dream-Clyde/Jet/Rudy T
Lebron-Wade/Kyrie/Bosh/Love

Do you see a Trend? Put David on a team with Magic and Worthy. Che may be considered the GOAT right now.

In the playoffs teams key in on you. And being a center with no playmakers around you, teams doubled and tripled David with no regard for his awful cast. Beverly team he was on was a lottery team without him. KG can probably make a similar claim. Think how many rings KG would have if he were able to play with Ray and Paul Pierce his whole career? What if David could of played with Lebron, like Kobe got to play with Shaq. I'd bet David and Bron would get 5-7 rings together through there Prime. David also missed out on 3 seasons of 24/12/4 type stats because of the Navy.

Except those players that I mentioned also dominated without a great team.

1) LeBron did.
2) Jordan did.
3) Shaq did.
4) Kareem did.
5) Wilt did.
6) Dream did.
7) D.Rob didn't. Sorry, history proves it.
8) Duncan did.
9) KG did to some extent.
10) KD did to some extent.

The only individual with a noticeable decline come playoff time was D.Rob.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 01:21 PM
1) I never compared him to Dwight Howard in terms of playing ability. Clearly I'd rather have D.Rob over Dwight. I was comparing their physique and athleticism. Their bodies were very similar in that they were long, big, muscular, and both were exceptional at getting from one end of the basket to another.
2) When Pop started coaching or when Tim Duncan came along? Tim was the better player since year 1. He has been and will always be.
3) He wasn't a better scorer than Hakeem and even if I concede that he was, can you please explain his playoffs struggle? At least with a guy like LeBron having to carry his team, he also did so in the playoffs. Why is it D.Rob failed to keep that same level of play in the playoffs? His production and efficiency drops big time. His advanced numbers plummet. Yet, those are the two barometers you use to measure his success. Also, in regards to their range, Hakeem was more consistent and took more shots outside of the basket. D.Rob could do it too but it was nowhere the consistency Hakeem did it at. You're comparing two different players. D.Rob was not half as skilled as Hakeem at scoring. Think about it, who do players pay thousands of dollars to learn from? Certainly not D.Rob.

Again man, I really have to question your Drob knowledge. His jumper was every bit as leethal and consistent as Hakeems. Plus he was faster and a better athlete. That's what he had on Hakeem. Hakeem had superior post moves and footwork. That's what Hakeem had on David. When David got the ball to deep on Hakeem, Hakeem was powerless to stop him.

Please check this 5 minute film...please
He drops 40/17/7/4 on the Dream
Dream could not handle Drob one on one. During those playoffs, Houston had a superior game plan, that was the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RP3SvZ4O8

David is a beast, and one series is the only difference between the two.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 01:25 PM
If I was going strictly off regular season, Dream may not make my top 10.

Again David Robinson has TEN seasons of WS48 that are better than Hakeems best year

Think about that

Again David had SIX seasons of PER better than Hakeems best year

Think about that

You can't find two players where the domination is that drastic from an advanced stats aspect where the lesser is better. David was on crap teams. He got keyed on, and being a center, a guy who needs the ball passed to him, and having awful coaching, where coaches can't come up with game plans, bad playoffs can happen. He had good playoff performances as well.

In the 90-91 playoffs,

David Lead the playoffs in TS% with .760, lead the Playoffs in Reb with 13.5, lead the playoffs in blocks with 3.8, yet he only averaged 25.8 pts a game.

He's your center, teamates have to pass him the ball, Coaches have to create a game plan that gets him the ball. This shows inept coaching, and inept teammates. Maybe Willie Anderson thought he was the man. Or maybe Terry Cummings thought he needed to get his shots.

I watched tons of Drob, Ive seen him be more unstoppable than any player in history. Your just not able to see what he would of been with Hall of fame talent and coaching like the other guys were afforded. He had absolute dirt coaching accept for one year of his prime with Larry Brown. He had absolute dirt supporting cast every year of his prime.

Once Tim came, he was no longer that Dominant guy. He was 30 post injury and had lost several steps by this point. Prime David with two Hall of famers in there Prime to play with like a Magic, or a Bird or a myriad of players you may have above him, would result in you putting him top 5 ever. David single handedly could make any team a 50 win team. And he proved that by coming, and by getting hurt and they fell off a freaking cliff. Only Lebron has been able to do the same. Hakeem didn't do that, even Kareem missed playoffs in his PRIME.

If I was going strictly off regular season, Drob is top 5 easily.

If you are basing it off advanced statistics for the REGULAR SEASON, then you have a point. Too bad the game doesn't run on advanced statistics. And even if it did, once again, you continue ignoring David's continuous history of playoff failures. He turns into a cricket come playoff time and it's not a mystery why. He was a 2nd option player who tried to win as a 1st option player. Didn't have the capacity to adjust his game against unfavorable big's and certainly didn't have the leadership to do so either. Once Tim came, you saw someone who you could build upon. Tim was a much better player than D.Rob. You can't argue against the fact that he was a better rebounder, defender, passer, and scorer. D.Rob never had that in his skillset. Again, if you're going to use the "bad teammates were responsible for D.Rob's terrible playoff success", then you're just giving him the ultimate excuse. 94 Playoffs, he was the reason they lost to the Jazz. 95 playoffs, first round, his team carried him. Hell, Rogers was having success attacking D.Rob and on the other end, D.Rob couldn't take advantage of a much smaller defender when it was given to him in Rogers. He should have dominated that weak Nuggets team but he had another terrible series. I'm sorry but the pattern is simple and it's that D.Rob was not a player you could rely on to carry a team. Avery Johnson was quoted as saying David Robinson isn't going to be there for us. What do you think that meant?

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 01:32 PM
Again man, I really have to question your Drob knowledge. His jumper was every bit as leethal and consistent as Hakeems. Plus he was faster and a better athlete. That's what he had on Hakeem. Hakeem had superior post moves and footwork. That's what Hakeem had on David. When David got the ball to deep on Hakeem, Hakeem was powerless to stop him.

Please check this 5 minute film...please
He drops 40/17/7/4 on the Dream
Dream could not handle Drob one on one. During those playoffs, Houston had a superior game plan, that was the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RP3SvZ4O8

David is a beast, and one series is the only difference between the two.

1) Find a legitimate argument that D.Rob was just as lethal and consistent as Hakeem with his range. It wasn't. Hakeem took more outside shots than D.Rob and was more consistent.
2) Faster and better athlete? Again, this is basketball. Guys like Steve Nash can dominate without being the fastest or best athlete. By your logic, we should proclaim Nate Robinson as a top ten PG.
3) "When David got the ball to deep on Hakeem." This isn't even a Hakeem vs David debate so why are you so focused on Hakeem?

You post D.Rob's one great playoff game but selectively ignore the countless terrible ones? Why? It's pretty clear you have an agenda and confirmation bias so I see no point in dragging this along. Most people would not put David Robinson that high. Most people would put Hakeem that high. I think it's time you accept that David Robinson wasn't as good as you and his regular season advanced statistics point it out to be.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 01:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3jmOpzcUy0#t=164.924968425

Last one, just check it out, look at David's skill set. There has never been a player like him. he truly is one of a kind with what he can do out there. He is easily in my top 10. You can't put 10 guys ahead of him based on how he effects a game and the dominance level at which he does it.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 01:38 PM
1) Find a legitimate argument that D.Rob was just as lethal and consistent as Hakeem with his range. It wasn't. Hakeem took more outside shots than D.Rob and was more consistent.
2) Faster and better athlete? Again, this is basketball. Guys like Steve Nash can dominate without being the fastest or best athlete. By your logic, we should proclaim Nate Robinson as a top ten PG.
3) "When David got the ball to deep on Hakeem." This isn't even a Hakeem vs David debate so why are you so focused on Hakeem?

You post D.Rob's one great playoff game but selectively ignore the countless terrible ones? Why? It's pretty clear you have an agenda and confirmation bias so I see no point in dragging this along. Most people would not put David Robinson that high. Most people would put Hakeem that high. I think it's time you accept that David Robinson wasn't as good as you and his regular season advanced statistics point it out to be.

Men lie women lie numbers don't. He was ever bit as good as his numbers say he was, otherwise he wouldn't be able to put them up.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 01:39 PM
Men lie women lie numbers don't. He was ever bit as good as his numbers say he was, otherwise he wouldn't be able to put them up.

You're right. So that explains his amazing playoff dominance. They don't lie, you said it.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 01:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3jmOpzcUy0#t=164.924968425

Last one, just check it out, look at David's skill set. There has never been a player like him. he truly is one of a kind with what he can do out there. He is easily in my top 10. You can't put 10 guys ahead of him based on how he effects a game and the dominance level at which he does it.

Nothing says "I'm biased" more than a selective video against a terrible Kings team that didn't have a strong frontcourt.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 01:59 PM
[
=FlashBolt;31154559]1)
Find a legitimate argument that D.Rob was just as lethal and consistent as Hakeem with his range. It wasn't. Hakeem took more outside shots than D.Rob and was more consistent.

Dude I'm giving you game film of a guy droping jumper after jumper after jumper from all angles as if he was MJ lol


2) Faster and better athlete? Again, this is basketball. Guys like Steve Nash can dominate without being the fastest or best athlete. By your logic, we should proclaim Nate Robinson as a top ten PG.

Or by your logic Lebron isn't s---? Don't play that stupid logic game. David had great ball skills and a great jumper for a big man, you combine that with superior speed and athletic ability then you see why he was impossible to deal with one on one.


3) "When David got the ball to deep on Hakeem." This isn't even a Hakeem vs David debate so why are you so focused on Hakeem?

Because Hakeem is perhaps the best defensive center of all time, and if David can absolutely take him apart, than he is unstoppable.


You post D.Rob's one great playoff game but selectively ignore the countless terrible ones?

Thats the thing, you don't know what your talking about. Terrible? 24/12/3 is what he averaged. He didn't play terrible. He just go beat by Hakeem a few times. Just as he beat Hakeem a few time too. Playoff or regular season they both got there licks in pretty evenly and there all time head to head backs that up. Your just not understanding this.


Why? It's pretty clear you have an agenda and confirmation bias so I see no point in dragging this along. Most people would not put David Robinson that high. Most people would put Hakeem that high. I think it's time you accept that David Robinson wasn't as good as you and his regular season advanced statistics point it out to be.

I'm giving you actual game film. I showing you what actually happened. You would rather ignore what actually happened and continue on with a theme that only started after one playoff series.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You ask for argument I give you film. In tern your answer is not proof, its just "He wasn't". Please.

Like I said, I got 10 years of regular season Win shares better than Hakeems best year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got 6 years of regular season PER better than Hakeems best year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your talking about a consistent jumper?!?!?!?! 10 years is the consistency I got. Step your game up. You have shown nothing but one 6 game series. Your argument has been pathetic full of just empty words. I got film and stats that show a dominant player. A player who has been more dominant than Hakeem.

I gave you my explanation of the playoffs. If a guy has a TS of .760, but his teammates and coaches refuse to feed him, then there is nothing he can do. Even Lebron has been stifled in the playoffs. A guy can't carry a team by himself, while getting keyed on the entire game. At some point the tire is going to pop.

David didn't have the opportunity to play with the superior talent as the guys who you may have above him. You dont understand and can't comprehend so just be a sheep bro. Its all good.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 02:03 PM
Nothing says "I'm biased" more than a selective video against a terrible Kings team that didn't have a strong frontcourt.

Nothing says I'm a hater more than when I show a film against Hakeem first and you say "why are you showing Hakeem". Doesn't matter what I show. You always got some bs to say.

You are talking out you --- on much of this debate. You have proved you don't know nearly enough about Drob to even talk about him. You've said a bunch of false and off base things that are just wrong that profile your ignorance to the Admiral. I don't mind arguing with you but since your so ignorant to what David has done on the court, ill just let you keep blind hating.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 02:05 PM
You're right. So that explains his amazing playoff dominance. They don't lie, you said it.

Same reason Lebron has been stopped. Poor coaching, poor teammates, fatigue from carrying a team on his back, and 24/12/3 isn't poor, but your a blind sheep on this topic so I'd expect nothing less than the bs you keep spewing.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 02:17 PM
David Robinson's best Playoff PER is better than the best of

Barkley
Dirk
Magic
Bird
Malone, Karl
Malone, Moses
Kobe

Just to name a few. Just stop with your playoff bashing. He was on crap teams. I guess I can easily put David ahead of all of these guys since he's got both playoffs and regular season peak above all of them.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 02:21 PM
[)

Dude I'm giving you game film of a guy droping jumper after jumper after jumper from all angles as if he was MJ lol



Or by your logic Lebron isn't s---? Don't play that stupid logic game. David had great ball skills and a great jumper for a big man, you combine that with superior speed and athletic ability then you see why he was impossible to deal with one on one.



Because Hakeem is perhaps the best defensive center of all time, and if David can absolutely take him apart, than he is unstoppable.



Thats the thing, you don't know what your talking about. Terrible? 24/12/3 is what he averaged. He didn't play terrible. He just go beat by Hakeem a few times. Just as he beat Hakeem a few time too. Playoff or regular season they both got there licks in pretty evenly and there all time head to head backs that up. Your just not understanding this.



I'm giving you actual game film. I showing you what actually happened. You would rather ignore what actually happened and continue on with a theme that only started after one playoff series.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You ask for argument I give you film. In tern your answer is not proof, its just "He wasn't". Please.

Like I said, I got 10 years of regular season Win shares better than Hakeems best year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got 6 years of regular season PER better than Hakeems best year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your talking about a consistent jumper?!?!?!?! 10 years is the consistency I got. Step your game up. You have shown nothing but one 6 game series. Your argument has been pathetic full of just empty words. I got film and stats that show a dominant player. A player who has been more dominant than Hakeem.

I gave you my explanation of the playoffs. If a guy has a TS of .760, but his teammates and coaches refuse to feed him, then there is nothing he can do. Even Lebron has been stifled in the playoffs. A guy can't carry a team by himself, while getting keyed on the entire game. At some point the tire is going to pop.

David didn't have the opportunity to play with the superior talent as the guys who you may have above him. You dont understand and can't comprehend so just be a sheep bro. Its all good.

1) You're giving me one game. LeBron had a game where he hit 8 threes in a row. I guess he's an amazing shooter, huh? One game is one game. Any player can get hot and drop 40. Ask Brandon Jennings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgeuh4FiKoY

So is this indicative of how great Brandon Jennings really is?

2) No, I never said that. What I said was you're naming attributes that doesn't exactly indicate who the better player was. D.Rob may have been faster and a better athlete but Hakeem's skill more than makes up for it. If he is as great as you say, please again, why is it he sucks in the playoffs and hasn't dominated teams during the playoffs that lacked a great frontcourt?

3) So because he can play against Hakeem meant he's better than Hakeem? I never said D.Rob wasn't great. I'm saying you're ranking him too high purely on advanced statistics. Evidence though, shows he underperformed when it mattered most.

4) His regular season averages in marginal and advanced drop significantly come playoff time. You seem to always ignore it.

5) Again, win shares and PER are a few barometers you could use but there are many more.. You're using only stats that help your argument but ignore the factual evidence of other ones. CP3 must be a better player than Magic Johnson I guess.

Btw, are you suggesting that David Robinson was a better player in 2000 than Hakeem was in 1993? Because your argument is leading towards that.

6) Again, when did I use Hakeem vs Robinson as evidence? I'm using your own arguments against you. You're saying he's so great because of advanced stats but then you ignore his playoff stats. You say he's so great because of one video but I show you a video of Brandon Jennings scoring 55 points. What does that ONE video prove?

And sorry if my proof is simply "he wasn't." It's pretty obvious to most people who are unbiased who the better player was.. You're literally the only guy who thinks D.Rob is as great as you say. What does that tell you? Are you somehow seeing something that millions of other people can't see?

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 02:26 PM
Same reason Lebron has been stopped. Poor coaching, poor teammates, fatigue from carrying a team on his back, and 24/12/3 isn't poor, but your a blind sheep on this topic so I'd expect nothing less than the bs you keep spewing.

Except, LeBron carries on that same level of performance come playoff time. In fact, they are nearly identical. In Robinson's case, his production and level of performance drops in the playoffs. I'm sorry you can't see that. Sorry you are THAT biased that you try and put Robinson in the same sentence as LeBron.


Nothing says I'm a hater more than when I show a film against Hakeem first and you say "why are you showing Hakeem". Doesn't matter what I show. You always got some bs to say.

You are talking out you --- on much of this debate. You have proved you don't know nearly enough about Drob to even talk about him. You've said a bunch of false and off base things that are just wrong that profile your ignorance to the Admiral. I don't mind arguing with you but since your so ignorant to what David has done on the court, ill just let you keep blind hating.

I'm asking why you are using specifically Hakeem vs Robinson when this has nothing to do with Hakeem but how Robinson is being ranked. We can use Hakeem but we all knew what happened when they faced in the playoffs. Should I start posting stats and videos of it or are you going to say some crap like "Horry was better than everyone on the Spurs?"


David Robinson's best Playoff PER is better than the best of

Barkley
Dirk
Magic
Bird
Malone, Karl
Malone, Moses
Kobe

Just to name a few. Just stop with your playoff bashing. He was on crap teams. I guess I can easily put David ahead of all of these guys since he's got both playoffs and regular season peak above all of them.

LMFAO, that's for ONE SEASON. Are you really being that selective? It's pathetic. Why don't you try his other seasons. Let's see how great he was compared to his regular season.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 02:32 PM
And why do you insist that I hate David Robinson? Is that what people do these days? Anyone who disagrees with them and has evidence that he isn't as great as you somehow think he is, is a hater?

I'm blindly ignorant but you're using his one season as evidence that he's an amazing playoff performer? If anything, that just shows how desperate you are to find an argument. You go on ranting about how David Robinson's regular season PER/WS is greater than Hakeem's but ignore the fact that Hakeem's playoffs PER during his peak absolutely destroys David Robinson? You do realize all you're doing is selecting data that supports your argument but ignore data that doesn't, right? Then you call me a hater?? Buddy, that's what YOU are doing. I don't even care about David Robinson. He's irrelevant to me in terms of ranking the top ten players ever.

FlashBolt
09-03-2016, 02:37 PM
I'm done with this "debate." You have a weird obsession with David Robinson. His own teammates questioned his leadership. You can't find statistical evidence that suggests David Robinson had better range than Hakeem other than a video that shows him making jumpshots. You go on and on about his regular season prowess but won't acknowledge that it drops big-time come the playoffs. You somehow think he's better than Tim Duncan. What's the point of "debating" you? You think I'm a hater when I have zero bias towards him because literally, he's that irrelevant to me. Like I said, you're literally the only guy who thinks David Robinson is as good as you believe he is. Everyone on this thread gave up because just the absurdity of it is an indication that they're dealing with someone who is biased.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 02:54 PM
And why do you insist that I hate David Robinson? Is that what people do these days? Anyone who disagrees with them and has evidence that he isn't as great as you somehow think he is, is a hater?

I'm blindly ignorant but you're using his one season as evidence that he's an amazing playoff performer? If anything, that just shows how desperate you are to find an argument. You go on ranting about how David Robinson's regular season PER/WS is greater than Hakeem's but ignore the fact that Hakeem's playoffs PER during his peak absolutely destroys David Robinson? You do realize all you're doing is selecting data that supports your argument but ignore data that doesn't, right? Then you call me a hater?? Buddy, that's what YOU are doing. I don't even care about David Robinson. He's irrelevant to me in terms of ranking the top ten players ever.

Your hating cause you have shown nothing?

Huh? How have I ignored it, when I ranked him above Admiral????? I am taking into account both regular season of 10 seasons greater than Hakeem's best, and the 2 seasons Hakeem has over David's best playoff.

What the h--- are you talking about son?

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 03:01 PM
If I was going strictly off regular season, Dream may not make my top 10.

Again David Robinson has TEN seasons of WS48 that are better than Hakeems best year

Think about that

Again David had SIX seasons of PER better than Hakeems best year

Think about that

You can't find two players where the domination is that drastic from an advanced stats aspect where the lesser is better. David was on crap teams. He got keyed on, and being a center, a guy who needs the ball passed to him, and having awful coaching, where coaches can't come up with game plans, bad playoffs can happen. He had good playoff performances as well.

In the 90-91 playoffs,

David Lead the playoffs in TS% with .760, lead the Playoffs in Reb with 13.5, lead the playoffs in blocks with 3.8, yet he only averaged 25.8 pts a game.

He's your center, teamates have to pass him the ball, Coaches have to create a game plan that gets him the ball. This shows inept coaching, and inept teammates. Maybe Willie Anderson thought he was the man. Or maybe Terry Cummings thought he needed to get his shots.

I watched tons of Drob, Ive seen him be more unstoppable than any player in history. Your just not able to see what he would of been with Hall of fame talent and coaching like the other guys were afforded. He had absolute dirt coaching accept for one year of his prime with Larry Brown. He had absolute dirt supporting cast every year of his prime.

Once Tim came, he was no longer that Dominant guy. He was 30 post injury and had lost several steps by this point. Prime David with two Hall of famers in there Prime to play with like a Magic, or a Bird or a myriad of players you may have above him, would result in you putting him top 5 ever. David single handedly could make any team a 50 win team. And he proved that by coming, and by getting hurt and they fell off a freaking cliff. Only Lebron has been able to do the same. Hakeem didn't do that, even Kareem missed playoffs in his PRIME.

If I was going strictly off regular season, Drob is top 5 easily.

He was 32 post injury and lost several steps at this point.

IKnowHoops
09-03-2016, 03:49 PM
At the end of the day, for every one time he was sub-par against all time great big man, there are 10 times where he was "otherworldly" against an all time great big. And that is something I can most definitely prove.