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View Full Version : 23rd Best Player in the NBA TIEBREAKER: Wade vs. M. Gasol



Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 11:45 AM
Tiebreaking time!!! .. Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. James Harden
10. Draymond Green
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Blake Griffin
13. Jimmy Butler
14. Klay Thompson
15. Damian Lillard
16. LaMarcus Aldridge
17. Kyrie Irving
18. Carmelo Anthony
19. Kyle Lowry
20. John Wall
21. Karl-Anthony Towns
22. Paul Millsap
23. ???

Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 12:01 PM
Marc Gasol is just as efficient as Dwyane Wade, without having to dominate the ball. There's no question that his defense is superior, and he plays a more important defensive position to boot.

Wade will score more points, simply because he will take more shots. Gasol will not give up the points on the other end though.

Give me the better 2 way player.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2016, 12:09 PM
Only because I don't trust Gasol coming back and being the 2 way player he was, I am going Wade. I will for sure admit I am wrong (and that Gasol should be higher) if he returns to form.

6man
08-29-2016, 01:08 PM
Wade, I've explained my stance multiple times. Gasol isn't going to lead you to post season success. He can't take over a game and go for 30+ when needed and he's been out with injury.

Heediot
08-29-2016, 02:17 PM
Only because I don't trust Gasol coming back and being the 2 way player he was, I am going Wade. I will for sure admit I am wrong (and that Gasol should be higher) if he returns to form.

If i were to bet on who would miss more games next season, I would go Wade. So the argument works against both guys. Throw in Wade's age and I feel Gasol is the more logical pick from my perspective.

I also have a mad bias for guys like Marc Gasol so that also influences my choice here.

6man
08-29-2016, 02:52 PM
Unbelievable lol!

Giannis94
08-29-2016, 02:59 PM
why isn't giannis an option.

Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 03:16 PM
why isn't giannis an option.

This is a tie breaker thread, Gasol and Wade had same number of votes so we need to vote again with my these guys as options. Then the #24 thread will have everyone on it again

FlashBolt
08-29-2016, 03:32 PM
Marc didn't go through a career ending injury. It's very likely he will return to the same form. His impact on the court is significant. As for not being able to carry a team to the postseason, how many centers can these days? He plays his role very well. Defends, passes, scores, and makes the right plays. Going with Marc here even though I think Giannis is better than both.

Ebbs
08-29-2016, 03:54 PM
Wade shouldn't be in the top 30.

He's terrible on defense at this point, he isn't good off-ball, and he takes away from better on-ball players.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2016, 04:16 PM
If i were to bet on who would miss more games next season, I would go Wade. So the argument works against both guys. Throw in Wade's age and I feel Gasol is the more logical pick from my perspective.

I also have a mad bias for guys like Marc Gasol so that also influences my choice here.

I generally take the 2 way big over the wing too, but Gasol was already slow. I just need to see him play and prove he is still in the running for a top 5 center before I give him a vote this early. On top of his injury, you have someone like KAT who will surpass him anyways soon enough, if not this year. Games missed is not indicative, that could be strategy at this point to rest the older guys.

DanG
08-29-2016, 04:20 PM
Marc Gasol? Lullz.

His brother is probably the best passing big man in the game, much better rebounder than him, better post scorer and a slightly better shooter. He got 0 votes. The only thing Marc does better is defend.

Grizzlies went 7-2 without Gasol before losing Conley&Randolph.

Isiah Thomas led his team to a 47-35 record as the best player on the team and a #1 scoring option, put up 22/3/6

DeMar DeRozan (alongside Kyle Lowry) led his team to a 56-26 record as the #1 scoring option, put up 23/4/4

Both are easily more efficient than Gasol.

Pau, DeRozan and Thomas combined for 0 votes and Marc got 6? Talk about overrated.

Wade here just based off his last playoff performance, where Marc has sucked the last two times.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2016, 04:22 PM
Marc Gasol? Lullz.

His brother is probably the best passing big man in the game, much better rebounder than him, better post scorer and a slightly better shooter. He got 0 votes. The only thing Marc does better is defend.

Grizzlies went 7-2 without Gasol before losing Conley&Randolph.

Isiah Thomas led his team to a 47-35 record as the best player on the team and a #1 scoring option, put up 22/3/6

DeMar DeRozan (alongside Kyle Lowry) led his team to a 56-26 record as the #1 scoring option, put up 23/4/4

Both are easily more efficient than Gasol.

Pau, DeRozan and Thomas combined for 0 votes and Marc got 6? Talk about overrated.

Wade here just based off his last playoff performance, where Marc has sucked the last two times.

Marc had a 3 year run as the maybe the best overall defender at his position though..

DanG
08-29-2016, 04:35 PM
Marc had a 3 year run as the maybe the best overall defender at his position though..

Sure, but that isn't enough to convince me he's better than those players I mentioned before. He isn't a good rebounder, he isn't very efficient. He's a good player who has found the right system. The center position isn't very strong anyway so all the best center talk years ago isn't saying much.

Would you take Gasol (before his injury) over this upcoming seasons KAT?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2016, 05:06 PM
Sure, but that isn't enough to convince me he's better than those players I mentioned before. He isn't a good rebounder, he isn't very efficient. He's a good player who has found the right system. The center position isn't very strong anyway so all the best center talk years ago isn't saying much.

Would you take Gasol (before his injury) over this upcoming seasons KAT?

No, I was clamoring for KAT around #15

6man
08-29-2016, 05:10 PM
Wade shouldn't be in the top 30.

He's terrible on defense at this point, he isn't good off-ball, and he takes away from better on-ball players.

Wade is hyper efficient off the ball so that's false and he hasn't played with anyone in his career better than him on the ball except LeBron so thats not true as well.

Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 06:09 PM
Wade is hyper efficient off the ball so that's false and he hasn't played with anyone in his career better than him on the ball except LeBron so thats not true as well.

Wade is not hyperefficiwnt off ball. That's been explained multiple times in these threads

6man
08-29-2016, 06:30 PM
Wade is not hyperefficiwnt off ball. That's been explained multiple times in these threads

It hasn't been explained. Wade shot 55% from the field playing off the ball and averaged 19. That's ridiculous for a guard. I believe the year before that was 21 on 53% and so on. You're letting your hate for Wade cloud your judgement. In no way are those not very efficient numbers, those are ridiculous percentages for a guard who many say can't shoot although he is a pretty good mid range shooter.

naps
08-29-2016, 06:56 PM
Marc Gasol is just as efficient as Dwyane Wade, without having to dominate the ball. There's no question that his defense is superior, and he plays a more important defensive position to boot.

Wade will score more points, simply because he will take more shots. Gasol will not give up the points on the other end though.

Give me the better 2 way player.

Just as efficient? I didnt check the numbers but taking your statement a bigman and a guard are similar on efficiency means the guard is on another level. Bigmen will always have MUCH MUCH better efficiency than guards for obvious reasons.

Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 08:36 PM
Just as efficient? I didnt check the numbers but taking your statement a bigman and a guard are similar on efficiency means the guard is on another level. Bigmen will always have MUCH MUCH better efficiency than guards for obvious reasons.

The league is past the point of having a ridiculous disparity between positions correlate with efficiency. The most efficient players in the league are not all of the same position.

Being more efficient in comparison to your position, if you really want to argue that, doesn't mean you earn brownie points. If you score two points, it is two points.

JordansBulls
08-29-2016, 09:25 PM
Wade for sure especially in the playoffs.

Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 11:14 PM
It hasn't been explained. Wade shot 55% from the field playing off the ball and averaged 19. That's ridiculous for a guard. I believe the year before that was 21 on 53% and so on. You're letting your hate for Wade cloud your judgement. In no way are those not very efficient numbers, those are ridiculous percentages for a guard who many say can't shoot although he is a pretty good mid range shooter.

First off, where are you getting that 55% playing off the ball? Provide a link because nothing i find comes close

Dwyane Wade
true usage percentage was 45.5%
Total field goal attempts 1,183
Total possessions used 1,527 (*Possessions below)
5.0% cuts (77 )
4.5% hand-offs (68 )
5.7% off screens (87 )
7.3% spot ups (112 )
10.3% post-ups (158 )
11% on Isolation (168 )
35% P&R ball handler (529 )

855/1527 possessions were him on the ball (post-ups, isolation, P&R Ball handler), 56% of the time. Without including transition plays. or his possessions resulting in turnovers. If you factor those in, it's higher.


That doesn't make him good at playing off the ball. And when you want to talk about him being a pretty good mid-range shooter, that is a lie. He's a career 38.9% shooter from mid-range, and his numbers the last two years are even slightly below that. Him shooting from 10-15 feet is actually worse, only 38.5% career and the last two years combined.


Dragic for comparison's sake

Goran Dragic
true usage percentage was 38.1%
Total field goal attempts 875
Total possessions used 1,103 (*Possessions below)
2.8% were on cuts (31 )
5.8% hand-offs (64 )
3.8% were off screens (42 )
16.1% off of spot ups (178 )
0.4% post-ups (4 )
6% on Isolation (66 )
38% P&R Ball handler (415 )

all from Nylon calculus http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/true-usage/

Dade County
08-29-2016, 11:55 PM
First off, where are you getting that 55% playing off the ball? Provide a link because nothing i find comes close

Dwyane Wade
true usage percentage was 45.5%
Total field goal attempts 1,183
Total possessions used 1,527 (*Possessions below)
5.0% cuts (77 )
4.5% hand-offs (68 )
5.7% off screens (87 )
7.3% spot ups (112 )
10.3% post-ups (158 )
11% on Isolation (168 )
35% P&R ball handler (529 )

855/1527 possessions were him on the ball (post-ups, isolation, P&R Ball handler), 56% of the time. Without including transition plays. or his possessions resulting in turnovers. If you factor those in, it's higher.


That doesn't make him good at playing off the ball. And when you want to talk about him being a pretty good mid-range shooter, that is a lie. He's a career 38.9% shooter from mid-range, and his numbers the last two years are even slightly below that. Him shooting from 10-15 feet is actually worse, only 38.5% career and the last two years combined.


Dragic for comparison's sake

Goran Dragic
true usage percentage was 38.1%
Total field goal attempts 875
Total possessions used 1,103 (*Possessions below)
2.8% were on cuts (31 )
5.8% hand-offs (64 )
3.8% were off screens (42 )
16.1% off of spot ups (178 )
0.4% post-ups (4 )
6% on Isolation (66 )
38% P&R Ball handler (415 )

all from Nylon calculus http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/true-usage/

I think you should let someone else take over until Wade is off the list.

Lmao

Shammyguy3
08-30-2016, 12:01 AM
I think you should let someone else take over until Wade is off the list.

Lmao

What great detailed insight

Dade County
08-30-2016, 12:35 AM
What great detailed insight

:)

Giannis94
08-30-2016, 01:12 AM
What great detailed insight

Giannis works for me. Hbu?

Shammyguy3
08-30-2016, 02:56 AM
Giannis works for me. Hbu?

Yeah his time will be coming up. I think between him Horford And Hayward for the next three spots, although I do wonder how far DeAndre will fall

Hawkeye15
08-30-2016, 09:41 AM
It hasn't been explained. Wade shot 55% from the field playing off the ball and averaged 19. That's ridiculous for a guard. I believe the year before that was 21 on 53% and so on. You're letting your hate for Wade cloud your judgement. In no way are those not very efficient numbers, those are ridiculous percentages for a guard who many say can't shoot although he is a pretty good mid range shooter.

Wade's offensive ratings have dropped into the meh area the last 2 years. His overall scoring effectiveness is far from elite at this point. I seriously can't believe he has never even been able to become even a poor three point shooter, versus a terrible one.

Wade is no longer an efficient scorer. Hasn't been for a couple of years now.

FlashBolt
08-30-2016, 11:39 AM
As usual, Wade fans are having a tough time defending him but they sure as hell chose him from the top 5 all the way to here...

6man
08-30-2016, 12:05 PM
First off, where are you getting that 55% playing off the ball? Provide a link because nothing i find comes close

Dwyane Wade
true usage percentage was 45.5%
Total field goal attempts 1,183
Total possessions used 1,527 (*Possessions below)
5.0% cuts (77 )
4.5% hand-offs (68 )
5.7% off screens (87 )
7.3% spot ups (112 )
10.3% post-ups (158 )
11% on Isolation (168 )
35% P&R ball handler (529 )

855/1527 possessions were him on the ball (post-ups, isolation, P&R Ball handler), 56% of the time. Without including transition plays. or his possessions resulting in turnovers. If you factor those in, it's higher.


That doesn't make him good at playing off the ball. And when you want to talk about him being a pretty good mid-range shooter, that is a lie. He's a career 38.9% shooter from mid-range, and his numbers the last two years are even slightly below that. Him shooting from 10-15 feet is actually worse, only 38.5% career and the last two years combined.


Dragic for comparison's sake

Goran Dragic
true usage percentage was 38.1%
Total field goal attempts 875
Total possessions used 1,103 (*Possessions below)
2.8% were on cuts (31 )
5.8% hand-offs (64 )
3.8% were off screens (42 )
16.1% off of spot ups (178 )
0.4% post-ups (4 )
6% on Isolation (66 )
38% P&R Ball handler (415 )

all from Nylon calculus http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/true-usage/

What season are you talking about?

6man
08-30-2016, 12:08 PM
Wade's offensive ratings have dropped into the meh area the last 2 years. His overall scoring effectiveness is far from elite at this point. I seriously can't believe he has never even been able to become even a poor three point shooter, versus a terrible one.

Wade is no longer an efficient scorer. Hasn't been for a couple of years now.

Yes but this is to be expected when you play most of the last 2 years without your only other consistent scoring option and without a great playmaker. We focused our entire defense on Wade in the playoffs, had Bosh been out there were probably toast. I'm predicting Wade will become much more efficient shooting right at or a little over 50% now that he has another consistent scoring option and an elite playmaker on his team.

6man
08-30-2016, 12:11 PM
As usual, Wade fans are having a tough time defending him but they sure as hell chose him from the top 5 all the way to here...

I'm not a Wade fan but for some reason am the only person in here voting for him bring an argument to the table lol. The way I see it is that he's better than Lowry and he went awhile ago, I would have him right in front of Lowry pushing the rest back a spot.

Shammyguy3
08-30-2016, 12:19 PM
You aren't the only one voting for him actually

Hawkeye15
08-30-2016, 12:21 PM
Yes but this is to be expected when you play most of the last 2 years without your only other consistent scoring option and without a great playmaker. We focused our entire defense on Wade in the playoffs, had Bosh been out there were probably toast. I'm predicting Wade will become much more efficient shooting right at or a little over 50% now that he has another consistent scoring option and an elite playmaker on his team.

he has been on decline for years now. The dude is no longer a top 20 player in the game. His last 2 years, he has started to really fall. Expect that to continue.

I would have voted Gasol, I just hate lower body injuries on big men who are older, and carry weight...

6man
08-30-2016, 12:28 PM
You aren't the only one voting for him actually

The only one voting for him bringing an argument to the table. You going to nitpick everything I say lol?

6man
08-30-2016, 12:35 PM
he has been on decline for years now. The dude is no longer a top 20 player in the game. His last 2 years, he has started to really fall. Expect that to continue.

I would have voted Gasol, I just hate lower body injuries on big men who are older, and carry weight...

It remains to be seen but I think he could up his play next year being the 2nd option and playing with a PG like Rondo. Trust me I'll admit if I'm wrong, I don't have an ego like that but I feel pretty confident with this decision.

Shammyguy3
08-30-2016, 12:54 PM
The only one voting for him bringing an argument to the table. You going to nitpick everything I say lol?

lol sorry if it seems that way, i'm not trying to nitpick. Yes you are the only one making an argument.


http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?913730-24th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA

24th slot is up

6man
08-30-2016, 01:46 PM
lol sorry if it seems that way, i'm not trying to nitpick. Yes you are the only one making an argument.


http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?913730-24th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA

24th slot is up

All good lol, just messing with you.

FlashBolt
08-30-2016, 03:26 PM
I'm not a Wade fan but for some reason am the only person in here voting for him bring an argument to the table lol. The way I see it is that he's better than Lowry and he went awhile ago, I would have him right in front of Lowry pushing the rest back a spot.

You're fine. My comment was directed towards the Wade fans who have been voting for him since the top five spot and yet, nearly 20 spots past and I've yet to see anyone besides you provide an argument for Wade. Kinda odd too considering you've been here for a few weeks while some of these Wade fans have been on his jock for the past two years. I have Wade in my top 30 range but let's be honest here, do you really see the Bulls fitting his style of play? He'll have less opportunities and there is zero floor spacing outside of Mirotic. I'm having a difficult time seeing how he will be as good as you say. Talent alone might get them into the playoffs but Boston, Hawks, Pacers, Cavs, Raptors, Detroit, and New York Knicks are better teams.

6man
08-30-2016, 03:44 PM
You're fine. My comment was directed towards the Wade fans who have been voting for him since the top five spot and yet, nearly 20 spots past and I've yet to see anyone besides you provide an argument for Wade. Kinda odd too considering you've been here for a few weeks while some of these Wade fans have been on his jock for the past two years. I have Wade in my top 30 range but let's be honest here, do you really see the Bulls fitting his style of play? He'll have less opportunities and there is zero floor spacing outside of Mirotic. I'm having a difficult time seeing how he will be as good as you say. Talent alone might get them into the playoffs but Boston, Hawks, Pacers, Cavs, Raptors, Detroit, and New York Knicks are better teams.

I guess it just remains to be seen. I believe they will give Wade many opportunities this year as he will be the 2nd option. I feel like this summer could've lit a fire under him and he may take the regular season more serious but it remains to be seen. I feel very confident in him shooting 50% though with the weaker defender guarding him as well as Rondos playmaking ability. Wade was pretty damn good for a 34 year old being checked by the opposing teams best perimeter defender every night in my opinion. I have a feeling him and Jimmy average 20-24 and I think Jimmy will become more efficient as well. I'm curious to see what Mirotic does and if he isn't playing up to par Doug may take his spot unless he's too small, idk his height and weight but I believe he's a big dude.