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Shammyguy3
08-27-2016, 11:33 AM
Here we go, kicking off #22... Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. James Harden
10. Draymond Green
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Blake Griffin
13. Jimmy Butler
14. Klay Thompson
15. Damian Lillard
16. LaMarcus Aldridge
17. Kyrie Irving
18. Carmelo Anthony
19. Kyle Lowry
20. John Wall
21. Karl-Anthony Towns
22. Paul Millsap
23. ???

Dade County
08-27-2016, 01:07 PM
Wade for the 5th straight time! lol

6man
08-27-2016, 02:18 PM
Wade again. People who voted Millsap and now Horford ask yourself this, would a team with 2 players better than Wade, with very solid players at every position and some solid players off the bench get swept in the playoffs? I'm almost positive Wade wouldn't have let Miami get swept against LeBron if they made the ECF, with or without Bosh and Whiteside.

Bruno
08-27-2016, 02:31 PM
Wade again. People who voted Millsap and now Horford ask yourself this, would a team with 2 players better than Wade, with very solid players at every position and some solid players off the bench get swept in the playoffs? I'm almost positive Wade wouldn't have let Miami get swept against LeBron if they made the ECF, with or without Bosh and Whiteside.

how do you reconcile this?

1) 5th on his own team in VORP
2) tied for 4th in BPM
3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)

mngopher35
08-27-2016, 02:33 PM
I am still leaning Klove, I think he would be ranked higher if not in a 3rd option type of role. For those using stats post his numbers as the main option against a lot of these guys and it would clearly show him above (although I admit slightly deceiving, still probably better than cousins who has similar situation and got voted really high here).

Bruno
08-27-2016, 02:38 PM
I am still leaning Klove, I think he would be ranked higher if not in a 3rd option type of role. For those using stats post his numbers as the main option against a lot of these guys and it would clearly show him above (although I admit slightly deceiving, still probably better than cousins who has similar situation and got voted really high here).

I really agree with the sentiment of this.

but I also think that if a blade is left unattended for too long, that the blade begins to dull. I think his circumstances is responsible for his skill set dulling more than anything else. I see a guy who doesn't even use the more dominant aspects of his offensive skill set any more, he had to sacrifice that to fit into the LeBron vortex. at this point, I'm not sure if he could just flip it back on in another environment, not sure how sharp those tools still are. two years is a long time to not implement given skills.

Bruno
08-27-2016, 02:46 PM
Not having our first life time achievement vote until #23 isn't bad, considering the forums history.

http://bkref.com/tiny/rA7KX

I love talking about non-statistical dark matter and how things we don't see impact games as much as things we can log. anyone want to sell me on Wades dark matter intangibles that I'm ignoring/dont show up in the stat sheet?

mngopher35
08-27-2016, 03:19 PM
I really agree with the sentiment of this.

but I also think that if a blade is left unattended for too long, that the blade begins to dull. I think his circumstances is responsible for his skill set dulling more than anything else. I see a guy who doesn't even use the more dominant aspects of his offensive skill set any more, he had to sacrifice that to fit into the LeBron vortex. at this point, I'm not sure if he could just flip it back on in another environment, not sure how sharp those tools still are. two years is a long time to not implement given skills.

It might take a little time to get re-adjusted but I don't think he has diminished much individually. Even if we were to like take an average of his stats between MN and last year (I know way too basic but just thinking general production) I would guess they come out similar to Cousins this season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=thompkl01&y2=2016&p2=loveke01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Here is a comparison of Klay who is in a somewhat similar situation (although actually gets to play to his strengths much more within the offense and has higher usage). Love is right there in the RS (actually leads in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, Vorp) and Klay clearly took the playoffs. Overall though not too far off especially considering who is sacrificing more individually. On top of this Love was 10th in the league in RPM which is pretty similar to his MN days and above Klay or Cousins.

I just think people went from overrating him (like Cousins is on this) to really underrating him by not even putting him within a tier or two as players he has outproduced as the man. His role definitely hinders him more than most of these top guys have to deal with.

Bruno
08-27-2016, 03:43 PM
It might take a little time to get re-adjusted but I don't think he has diminished much individually. Even if we were to like take an average of his stats between MN and last year (I know way too basic but just thinking general production) I would guess they come out similar to Cousins this season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=thompkl01&y2=2016&p2=loveke01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Here is a comparison of Klay who is in a somewhat similar situation (although actually gets to play to his strengths much more within the offense and has higher usage). Love is right there in the RS (actually leads in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, Vorp) and Klay clearly took the playoffs. Overall though not too far off especially considering who is sacrificing more individually. On top of this Love was 10th in the league in RPM which is pretty similar to his MN days and above Klay or Cousins.

I just think people went from overrating him (like Cousins is on this) to really underrating him by not even putting him within a tier or two as players he has outproduced as the man. His role definitely hinders him more than most of these top guys have to deal with.

thats my only gripe. were dealing with who's the best right now.

your make solid points. I'm curious what happens to Loves back if he's not in a luxurious enough position to play 31 mpg. theres a decent chance he would have broken down more drastically with an entire team on his back through his late 20's. another part of what if surrounding Kevin Love.

mngopher35
08-27-2016, 04:17 PM
thats my only gripe. were dealing with who's the best right now.

your make solid points. I'm curious what happens to Loves back if he's not in a luxurious enough position to play 31 mpg. theres a decent chance he would have broken down more drastically with an entire team on his back through his late 20's. another part of what if surrounding Kevin Love.

True, but he also has also proven capable of being the main option and putting up insane numbers which multiple guys picked already have not done (at least to his degree). There is some what if involved with him but given we have seen him in both roles while we haven't some others (like Klay who I mentioned in the first post), I just don't see why we give them a benefit of the doubt on something like that but have to think "but what if he is rusty or gets injured etc" for Love.

Bruno
08-27-2016, 05:09 PM
True, but he also has also proven capable of being the main option and putting up insane numbers which multiple guys picked already have not done (at least to his degree). There is some what if involved with him but given we have seen him in both roles while we haven't some others (like Klay who I mentioned in the first post), I just don't see why we give them a benefit of the doubt on something like that but have to think "but what if he is rusty or gets injured etc" for Love.

totally, I think he'd get back to a similar place. Just naturally, it would a minute to get elite at what he use to be elite at in a different environment, those tools haven't been in action for two years.

Shammyguy3
08-27-2016, 06:54 PM
i'm conflicted here; Marc Gasol, Kevin Love, Al Horford, DeAndre Jordan, Mike Conley, Gordon Hayward I can see going here (Giannias possibly too, but not for me).


I think i need a bit of time to decide

More-Than-Most
08-27-2016, 08:02 PM
lol same people voting for wade from like number 13 on

smith&wesson
08-27-2016, 08:11 PM
Marc Gasol - Healthy.

6man
08-27-2016, 08:48 PM
how do you reconcile this?

1) 5th on his own team in VORP
2) tied for 4th in BPM
3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)

Shows you numbers aren't everything, which is definitely the truth. Whats the argument for his teammates not showing up against us? I'll tell you right now if he had one teammate consistently show up every game that series they would've won in 6. You guys are overlooking intangibles such as being able to take over the game and will your team to a win as well as being as clutch as it gets. He has a clutch gene that only a few can match still to this day in my opinion.

On a side note, thoughts and prayers out to Wades family as his cousin was shot and killed while pushing her baby in a stroller. Some crazy **** going on in the world right now.

nycericanguy
08-27-2016, 09:09 PM
how do you reconcile this?

1) 5th on his own team in VORP
2) tied for 4th in BPM
3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)

I voted Hayward but Wade could go here too.

What you posted is advanced stats gone wrong...

What does Amare & Bosh having more win shares than Wade prove other than that stat is meaningless?

Shammyguy3
08-27-2016, 09:12 PM
I voted Hayward but Wade could go here too.

What you posted is advanced stats gone wrong...

What does Amare & Bosh having more win shares than Wade prove other than that stat is meaningless?

The stat is not meaningless, c'mon. Like all stats it is up to the individual to use it in proper context.

naps
08-27-2016, 10:26 PM
how do you reconcile this?

1) 5th on his own team in VORP
2) tied for 4th in BPM
3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)

That #3 clearly shows how foolish it is to look at these advanced junk to make opinions.

Ebbs
08-27-2016, 11:01 PM
Melo is overrated, he's over the hump, no longer efficient. (I'd consider that the panels first life time achievement vote here so far.)

Wade is in the same boat to a lesser extent. He was overrated last season, was IMO the fourth best player on his own team when everyone was healthy. Stepped it up in the playoffs but it's a way smaller sample size. People will pretend otherwise (like they did for Kobe the last 10 years of his career) but Wade was horrid on D last year, a sieve.

I'm tempted to take Kevin Love here based on what I believe he's capable of and not what he has been relegated to in Cleveland. But that's a reach and for the purposes of this exercise I'll hold off.

I think it's Gordon Hayward. Above average defensive player, way more efficient than comparable wings, isn't on the down swing of his career. It's a pace and space game and he's the best fit of what's left for today's NBA IMO.

Chronz
08-27-2016, 11:02 PM
Shows you numbers aren't everything, which is definitely the truth. Whats the argument for his teammates not showing up against us? I'll tell you right now if he had one teammate consistently show up every game that series they would've won in 6. You guys are overlooking intangibles such as being able to take over the game and will your team to a win as well as being as clutch as it gets. He has a clutch gene that only a few can match still to this day in my opinion.

On a side note, thoughts and prayers out to Wades family as his cousin was shot and killed while pushing her baby in a stroller. Some crazy **** going on in the world right now.

Thats the thing, how do we know if they didn't show up or if they were in roles where Wade was prioritized? Numbers aren't everything but they do mean something and when we look at Wade's intangibles, I dont think his argument gets much better anyways. Hes a non-floor spacing, ball dominant, offense only, undersized SG these days, his stats now are actually worse than when he was with Bron.

Like if we look at Dragics numbers when he gets to dominate the ball, they are actually better than Wade's. Perhaps this is partly why Riley let Wade go.... to see what the Dragon has left in the tank.

Dragic had the best year of his career a mere 2 years ago (3 seasons ago), then he was kicked off his natural position to integrate an inferior offensive PG in Bledsoe and his numbers without Bledsoe on the court were unsurprisingly as good as his career year. Then he had to make room for yet another inferior PG and his talent was stretched to the limit and he became disgruntled. I feel like he went through what Nash went through when he was forced to play with Antoine Walker and a bunch of ball dominant players. When he went back to dominating the ball in Phoenix he had an MVP year (which statistically was actually only his 2nd best season so people should stop with the whole he became a totally different player when in reality, it was only the perception of him that changed), what if that happens to Dragic this year? What if Wade is a disaster in Chi town? Would you really chalk all that up to coincidence? Look I love Wade so I would love to be wrong here, but I've laid out how much history hes going up against next year in other threads, its not that realistic to expect him to defy the odds IMO.


I dont know why Dragic and Wade couldn't find that balance from their initial half a season start, part of me thinks Bosh had something to do with it cuz when there are 3 focal points, someone is always left to suffer but here are the numbers as they were.

Last year without Dragic, Wade's production is basically par for the course, slightly better without him but the team is definitely not at its best statistically.

On the other hand, Dragic sees an EXPLOSION in his statistics without Wade, even more interesting is that we see the team was actually more productive when Wade was off the floor but Dragic was out there running the show. This happened in Phoenix with Bledsoe too, the team did just fine when Bledsoe was out with an injury because Dragic returned to his position of prominence. I see Wade having a similar influence on Dragic.


Given these facts, could we say Wade's game as currently constructed is holding his teammates back? So maybe its not that they werent showing up, maybe hes making his teammates worse? We'll find out this year thats for sure but what kind of player do you know is as bad a shooter, as lazy defensively and has this much mileage on him that really made his team significantly better? The only guy I can think of is an old Drexler and just barely.

6man
08-27-2016, 11:54 PM
The thing is, Wade is such a great playmaker, better than dragic so why take the ball out of his hands? Not to mention he scores in far more ways than Dragic. You can look at the stats, especially in our series and see no one else on his team did anything. Dragic had 1 or 2 good games and the others I can't even think of. Joe, Richardson, Dragic, Winslow, etc. couldn't hit an open shot and finish in the lane off of set ups from Wade. They made it very easy for us on the defensive end because we had to only focus on 1 guy and we were still pushed to the limit, that's how good that guy still is.

Look I'm not giving Wade a pass because he coasts at times during the regular season to preserve his body for the playoffs to do the things he did last year, but let's not act like those numbers are with Wade playing at full force, pedal to the metal all game because that's not the case. That's also another reason stats can be misleading, they don't take into account that someone is probably coasting/preserving themselves like Wade and even LeBron do in the regular season.

With the Raptors, our guys are busting it every night in hopes of getting the 1st seed which isn't going to happen. We also have 2 all stars trying to prove themselves and establish themselves as top level players. What does Wade have to prove to anyone anymore? I guarantee Wade also knows they aren't getting the first seed but I do believe he thinks if they are in the right position in the playoffs that they can knock off a LeBron led team. That's just the mindset of an all-time great player.

Now don't get me wrong, had Wade got to the playoffs and **** the bed I would be with you guys but there was multiple times I thought he was going to end our season and we somehow pulled it off. I'm basing my decision off of pretty simple logic here, there's not many players better than Wade to this day when he's going all out. As I've said before give me Wade over anything we have becuse he can still take his game to a level Lowry and DD can't. Would we have had a better record if we swapped Lowry with Wade or Derozan with Wade? Probably not but, I can tell you I would be much more confident with him headed into a playoff series.

Also any number that shows Wade is 8th best on his team behind Amare other than rebounds definitely has its flaws.

I'm taking Wade at this stage for the simple fact that I'm going to take the player who can take over a playoff series and will his team to wins over a borderline all star level player, especially players that can't get their teams to the playoffs.

Chronz
08-28-2016, 12:29 AM
The thing is, Wade is such a great playmaker, better than dragic so why take the ball out of his hands?
Because maybe hes not? Dragic sports the higher playmaking numbers and his assist skyrocket when Wade isn't out there preventing him from running the offense.


Not to mention he scores in far more ways than Dragic. You can look at the stats, especially in our series and see no one else on his team did anything. Dragic had 1 or 2 good games and the others I can't even think of. Joe, Richardson, Dragic, Winslow, etc. couldn't hit an open shot and finish in the lane off of set ups from Wade. They made it very easy for us on the defensive end because we had to only focus on 1 guy and we were still pushed to the limit, that's how good that guy still is.

The argument Im making is that maybe thats because its Wade's only way to remain relevant. Its harder to show up when a possibly inferior player is dominating the ball AND hes not much of an outlet option for you.


Look I'm not giving Wade a pass because he coasts at times during the regular season to preserve his body for the playoffs to do the things he did last year, but let's not act like those numbers are with Wade playing at full force, pedal to the metal all game because that's not the case. That's also another reason stats can be misleading, they don't take into account that someone is probably coasting/preserving themselves like Wade and even LeBron do in the regular season.

Thats exactly why we separate the playoff numbers but you're not going to convince anyone that a player not playing to his potential in the RS is a good thing. Its one thing to be LeBron and still put out numbers expected of a great, quite another when you're a fringe all-star who raises his game come playoffs and has history against him repeating the same feat this year.


With the Raptors, our guys are busting it every night in hopes of getting the 1st seed which isn't going to happen. We also have 2 all stars trying to prove themselves and establish themselves as top level players. What does Wade have to prove to anyone anymore? I guarantee Wade also knows they aren't getting the first seed but I do believe he thinks if they are in the right position in the playoffs that they can knock off a LeBron led team. That's just the mindset of an all-time great player.

Agreed. Wade is a playoff riser, sadly hes not raising his game to unbelievable levels that make us forget the importance of the RS (IMO). Imagine if Miami could coast knowing it had the 2 seed wrapped up.


Now don't get me wrong, had Wade got to the playoffs and **** the bed I would be with you guys but there was multiple times I thought he was going to end our season and we somehow pulled it off. I'm basing my decision off of pretty simple logic here, there's not many players better than Wade to this day when he's going all out. As I've said before give me Wade over anything we have becuse he can still take his game to a level Lowry and DD can't. Would we have had a better record if we swapped Lowry with Wade or Derozan with Wade? Probably not but, I can tell you I would be much more confident with him headed into a playoff series.

I guess my only complaint was that it wasn't the miracle you pretend it to be. You guys had the better team and Wade wasn't all that impressive, particularly defensively. He made the most of his 3pt shots but Im willing to wager he never shoots that well again.


Also any number that shows Wade is 8th best on his team behind Amare other than rebounds definitely has its flaws.

Every analysis has its flaws, I happen to find analysis that disregards the metrics to be the most flawed, its just a matter of what you know with regards to statistical trends. There is no flaw here, the numbers are as they are because thats exactly what transpired, its what you make of them that can be flawed and nobody has to apologize for having better numbers than Wade.


I'm taking Wade at this stage for the simple fact that I'm going to take the player who can take over a playoff series and will his team to wins over a borderline all star level player, especially players that can't get their teams to the playoffs.

I have him coming up soon but I disagree that hes as good as you suggest, there are SERIOUS holes in his game that his athleticism can no longer cover up. Hes stunting his teammates IMO and its not worth the payoff. We'll find out for sure this year for sure, heres hoping Wade defies all the odds cuz its not gonna be easy.

FlashBolt
08-28-2016, 01:06 AM
Giannis here easily at this point for me. This is for NEXT season. I don't see D-Wade playing at Giannis's level. Every stat backs that up and at this point, Giannis is only going to get better. Look into how great Giannis became during the latter part of the season when Kidd decided to take advantage of Giannis's playmaking ability. Once this guy bulks up and starts practicing his jumper, he'll be right up the top ten. I saw KD play his entire career. I think KD is only better than him shooting-wise. Overall, Giannis might be the better player very soon IMO.

*Stop with the D-Wade was dominating in the postseason. It was GOOD, not great. His numbers were on-par with his regular season numbers so you can't possibly say he took his game to another level. I can't in all honesty give Wade credit for looking good against DeRozan (who has looked God awful since the playoffs started) and fricking Jeremy Lin and Courtney Lee. I'm sorry but I can't. I think it's time for some of you guys to realize that Wade is going to be on the decline big time this season. It's going to be really interesting to see how Chicago adjusts with zero shooting outside of Mirotic in their lineup and then have Wade share the ball with two other ball dominant players.

FlashBolt
08-28-2016, 01:14 AM
K.Love? I'm not sure about most people but I'd like to think Giannis is better than him at this point in many aspects. I like K.Love and try to defend him as much as possible but Milwaukee would not be trading Giannis for K.Love while Cleveland would do so in a heartbeat.

nycericanguy
08-28-2016, 09:42 AM
The stat is not meaningless, c'mon. Like all stats it is up to the individual to use it in proper context.

the stat in THIS case is meaningless... all 4 of them are if they are going to suggest that Amare & Bosh were better than Wade, or that Wade was the 4th or 5th best player on MIA last year.

6man
08-28-2016, 10:42 AM
Wade is a hell of an off the ball player though and Rondo is a far superior playmaker than Dragic so maybe they'll connect more. I would argue that Bulls team has just as much if not more shooting than that Heat team did.

Giannis was on a team that was projected to have home court advantage but they **** the bed. I just can't pick someone who can't lead their team to the playoffs at this point. I guess it's just what you value at this point when selecting your players but like I said earlier, the Hawks apparently had 2 players better than Wade and a lot of very solid role players and couldn't win a game against the Cavs. I think we can all agree that wouldn't have happened against Wade. Wade and LeBron both ball out head to head and it's a damn shame we've never seen them in a playoff series against each other. I will also say that Miami team at full health last year would've made things very interesting in the ECF.

All this basketball talk has me hype for 2K17 right around the corner.

Shammyguy3
08-28-2016, 11:32 AM
Wade is not a good off the ball player...

6man
08-28-2016, 11:41 AM
Wade is not a good off the ball player...

Really? What do you call his time in Miami with LeBron where he was off the ball slashing most of the time and scoring very efficiently?

FlashBolt
08-28-2016, 12:02 PM
Really? What do you call his time in Miami with LeBron where he was off the ball slashing most of the time and scoring very efficiently?

Yeah, he was great at it and hopefully Rondo finds him for some easy baskets. Still, he can't shoot and most of his shots come from within the basket. Will be tough to see him being any better than he currently is.

Shammyguy3
08-28-2016, 12:44 PM
Really? What do you call his time in Miami with LeBron where he was off the ball slashing most of the time and scoring very efficiently?

That was multiple years ago... And it took a lot of time for him to figure out how to play off the ball; look at his %ast rates. His highest %ast rate was only 44% and that was with Lebron; his rate last year was less than 28% meaning he was not playing off the ball at all

kdspurman
08-28-2016, 01:11 PM
Kinda thinking Horford here

FlashBolt
08-28-2016, 01:34 PM
That was multiple years ago... And it took a lot of time for him to figure out how to play off the ball; look at his %ast rates. His highest %ast rate was only 44% and that was with Lebron; his rate last year was less than 28% meaning he was not playing off the ball at all

He couldn't play off the ball because he was the primary ballholder with Bosh gone. Bosh is also great at making the passes to cuts so more attention to Wade. From what I've seen, Wade is one of the better off-ball cutters to the rim. It's difficult to play off-ball when all eyes are on you. I mean, who is the opposing team supposed to focus on? Richardson? Winslow? Dragic was pretty lousy for half the season so there wasn't much any reason to focus him.

Shammyguy3
08-28-2016, 01:45 PM
He couldn't play off the ball because he was the primary ballholder with Bosh gone. Bosh is also great at making the passes to cuts so more attention to Wade. From what I've seen, Wade is one of the better off-ball cutters to the rim. It's difficult to play off-ball when all eyes are on you. I mean, who is the opposing team supposed to focus on? Richardson? Winslow? Dragic was pretty lousy for half the season so there wasn't much any reason to focus him.

Dragic should've been the primary ball-handler, so i don't agree with you;

Chronz has already touched on Dragic's production with Wade on vs off the floor, i think that speaks for itself.

Chronz
08-28-2016, 01:54 PM
Kinda thinking Horford here
Yup. I could never decide who was more important between he and Milsap. Hawks tried bringing back Horford and trading Milsap, maybe I should have let that be the tie breaker.

Chronz
08-28-2016, 02:03 PM
You guys have to realize that being a great off the ball cutter doesn't exonerate a lack of outlet shooting, it only helps offset it. It not like we've witnessed a massive up tick in off the ball cuts, we do however see a huge uptick in outside shooting. Thats because its easier to create that play than time a perfectly ran backpick or whatever. Like this year alone, the most prolific cutter was Horford who ALSO provides elite spacing on top of his movement off the ball. Wade scored 82PTS this year on cuts to the basket, all a great shooter has to do is hit 27 3's in a year and hes already scored more off the ball than Wade did this year on that particular play. Anytime someone says so and so sucks off the ball and all you can come up with is hes a great cutter, you better make damn sure hes an athletic beast who can command elite attention down there.

Also, its one thing when you have Bron and everyone else is spacing you out, do you guys have any idea how hard it will be to rely on backcuts with Rondo and no spacing outside of Mirotic/McD?

Heediot
08-28-2016, 03:20 PM
Marc Gasol - Healthy.

Agreed. He will bounce back next year and prove his worth.

6man
08-28-2016, 03:38 PM
That was multiple years ago... And it took a lot of time for him to figure out how to play off the ball; look at his %ast rates. His highest %ast rate was only 44% and that was with Lebron; his rate last year was less than 28% meaning he was not playing off the ball at all

Multiple years ago when he had banged up knees too though. Just because he didn't play much off the ball last year doesn't mean he forgot how to do it lol. He's also playing with the assists leader.

6man
08-28-2016, 03:42 PM
Man, nobody on the Hawks was better than Wade let alone 2 players. We're talking about Horford who averaged 2 rebounds in the Cavs series and got swept? I can understand some of the players but some of these suggestions are just downright terrible.

Chronz
08-28-2016, 04:32 PM
Man, nobody on the Hawks was better than Wade let alone 2 players. We're talking about Horford who averaged 2 rebounds in the Cavs series and got swept? I can understand some of the players but some of these suggestions are just downright terrible.
Thats just one series tho. Nobody is saying hes a dominant rebounder, just that hes better than Wade.

6man
08-28-2016, 05:10 PM
Thats just one series tho. Nobody is saying hes a dominant rebounder, just that hes better than Wade.

He's not though lol. I can't believe people can actually believe this. Playoffs he averaged 13-7, regular season he averaged 15-7. This is a center were talking about. Had Horford went to Miami and Wade stayed you can guarantee he would've been the 3rd or 4th fiddle.

5ass
08-28-2016, 06:21 PM
Went with Marc Gasol. If healthy, he's the second best center in the league IMO.

5ass
08-28-2016, 06:26 PM
I'm going with Wade after Marc. In a play off series, I want him over Hayward, horford, derozen, ect.

naps
08-28-2016, 09:14 PM
Wade is not a good off the ball player...

Lmao! This is hilarious. No guard of his caliber could play off the ball at the level he played next to LeBron James.

Vee-Rex
08-28-2016, 09:22 PM
Lmao! This is hilarious. No guard of his caliber could play off the ball at the level he played next to LeBron James.

Chronz is kinda right, though. Wade plays amazing off-the-ball for a guy that can't shoot at the perimeter. If you're talking purely off-ball then guys like Klay Thompson will give you more PPP.

It's just hard to rate Wade, man. He has his deficiencies, namely his shooting, but he just does a lot of stuff that can't be measured with stats that are just good. His ability to create his own shots and impact a defense is phenomenal.

Hard for me to pick anyone right now but I think Wade is definitely in the conversation for the next 1-5 spots.

flea
08-28-2016, 09:25 PM
The 2 best centers in the NBA haven't been voted in yet and we're already at #23? And 2 centers have been chosen ahead of them???? Please,

Gasol.

More-Than-Most
08-29-2016, 01:15 AM
What exactly is the love for Gasol? He is good and I have no issues with him in say the 15-25 range but is there really a case for him as a top 2 center?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2016, 10:16 AM
going Al Horford, I just don't know if Marc Gasol comes back and is a dominant defender/post player. Horford is the best on the board for me.

kdspurman
08-29-2016, 10:36 AM
Yup. I could never decide who was more important between he and Milsap. Hawks tried bringing back Horford and trading Milsap, maybe I should have let that be the tie breaker.

Yea.. Milsap may be more versatile of the 2, but it's close b/w them

FlashBolt
08-29-2016, 11:22 AM
What exactly is the love for Gasol? He is good and I have no issues with him in say the 15-25 range but is there really a case for him as a top 2 center?

Best defensive center when healthy. Best center a few years ago. A top passing center. Can score from pretty much anywhere on the court outside the three. Capable of guarding some guards.

Shammyguy3
08-29-2016, 11:46 AM
Tiebreaking thread is open for 24 hours:


http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?913682-23rd-Best-Player-in-the-NBA-TIEBREAKER-Wade-vs-M-Gasol