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Shammyguy3
08-24-2016, 08:09 PM
Here we go, kicking off #22... Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. James Harden
10. Draymond Green
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Blake Griffin
13. Jimmy Butler
14. Klay Thompson
15. Damian Lillard
16. LaMarcus Aldridge
17. Kyrie Irving
18. Carmelo Anthony
19. Kyle Lowry
20. John Wall
21. Karl-Anthony Towns
22. ???

Bruno
08-24-2016, 09:43 PM
After the break Giannis averaged 19-9-7 w 3.2 stocks on a TS% of .56. he had an AST% of 32.2. for comparisons sake LBJ averaged an assist percentage of 32% during his last season in Miami. he's a skilled passer, a quality defender and a gifted athlete. he's a three point stroke away from sky rocketing up this list.

as far as the three point shot is concerned, its been a struggle. but something interesting started to happen towards the end of the season. in the final 12 games he attempted 2.7 per game hitting at 37.5%. 32 attempts in total over the 12 game span. He attempted 31 threes in the previous 34 games before that stretch.

So the idea is that Kidd green lighted him and we saw the shots going up later in the season when he was at the end of his junior stride. the 37.5% is over a very small sample size but the enormous uptick in attempts reveals the philosophy behind the development and as long as he can shoot 35% from the arch defenders will have to run out at him. when* that happens, he's going to be a nightmare. as it stands, I think we can already start justifying him now at # 22. the full season numbers don't back it up because half the cumulative represents what is basically a transitioning sophomore, but you'd have to assume his production post-break is what we'd see next season, if not better.

HandsOnTheWheel
08-25-2016, 12:41 AM
You should start up an all time rank thread OP

More-Than-Most
08-25-2016, 12:57 AM
Might be the best list PSD has come up with in a long ****ing time... Minus PG of course.

ewing
08-25-2016, 12:59 AM
Thomas has been the most impactful of this group over the last couple years IMO so he gets my vote. That said the Greek Freak is the best basketball player IMO and should actually show it next year.

Shammyguy3
08-25-2016, 08:09 AM
You should start up an all time rank thread OP

We will get to something like that once we are done with this;

For the third time I'm voting Millsap

nycericanguy
08-25-2016, 11:35 AM
Hayward here for me. Giannis will probably overtake him next year though.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 11:51 AM
Milsap and Horford deserve some ****ing respect as actual all-stars with 2-way ability. I get the love affair with Giannis but again, are we suppose to be projecting those leaps?

Hawkeye15
08-25-2016, 12:13 PM
Milisap for me here. I am praying my Wolves sign him next summer, regardless of his age. I can't think of a better frontcourt mate for Towns that is available.

Dade County
08-25-2016, 12:18 PM
Wade is the biggest difference maker here.

Tony_Starks
08-25-2016, 01:27 PM
Wade is the biggest difference maker here.


He's been the biggest difference maker on the board for a while tbh.....

6man
08-25-2016, 01:49 PM
He's been the biggest difference maker on the board for a while tbh.....

I agree.

Shammyguy3
08-25-2016, 02:02 PM
Millsap: 17.1/9.0/3.3/1.8spg/1.7bpg/2.4 turnovers
Wade: 19.0/4.1/4.6/1.1spg/0.6bpg/2.7 turnovers

Millsap: 47.0fg% 31.9 3pt% 50.5efg% 55.6ts%
Wade: 45.6fg% 15.9 3pt% 45.9efg% 51.7ts%

Millsap: 21.3 PER 108 ORtg 0.183 WS/48 5.3 BPM 4.9 VORP
Wade: 20.3 PER 103 ORtg 0.105 WS/48 0.8 BPM 1.6 VORP

Regular season metrics, Millsap blows Wade out of the water and that's before factoring in how much better he is defensively and how he can be relied upon to play in more games year in and year out.

There is no denying that this past playoffs, Millsap underperformed based on his regular season and Wade performed better than his regular season. Offensively at least. However, Wade didn't exactly play ELITE and Millsap didn't play like garbage.


My reasoning why Millsap is ahead of Wade without much thought, and i would take a handful of other guys ahead of Wade too

mngopher35
08-25-2016, 02:33 PM
I am kinda leaning Klove here, I think he went from overrated to underrated pretty quick due to role change. As the main focus on offense he is elite unlike anyone else left at this point, his numbers in MN were better than Cousins (honestly don't see how the gap between him and cousins is nearly this big but that has more to do with Cousins going too early).

6man
08-25-2016, 02:51 PM
Millsap: 17.1/9.0/3.3/1.8spg/1.7bpg/2.4 turnovers
Wade: 19.0/4.1/4.6/1.1spg/0.6bpg/2.7 turnovers

Millsap: 47.0fg% 31.9 3pt% 50.5efg% 55.6ts%
Wade: 45.6fg% 15.9 3pt% 45.9efg% 51.7ts%

Millsap: 21.3 PER 108 ORtg 0.183 WS/48 5.3 BPM 4.9 VORP
Wade: 20.3 PER 103 ORtg 0.105 WS/48 0.8 BPM 1.6 VORP

Regular season metrics, Millsap blows Wade out of the water and that's before factoring in how much better he is defensively and how he can be relied upon to play in more games year in and year out.

There is no denying that this past playoffs, Millsap underperformed based on his regular season and Wade performed better than his regular season. Offensively at least. However, Wade didn't exactly play ELITE and Millsap didn't play like garbage.


My reasoning why Millsap is ahead of Wade without much thought, and i would take a handful of other guys ahead of Wade too

Your signature says it all though lol. if I had to put a ranking on it I would say Wade was a top 10 best player in the playoffs easily which is pretty elite. I'm going to go with the guy I can rely on more to win games and Wade also played 74 games last year.

As a raptors fan, Wade is better than Lowry and better than anything we could throw at him in the playoffs. Thankfully we pulled it off though.

Bruno
08-25-2016, 05:22 PM
Milsap and Horford deserve some ****ing respect as actual all-stars with 2-way ability. I get the love affair with Giannis but again, are we suppose to be projecting those leaps?

It's the same as it was with Towns, you don't have to project anything. the writing is already on the wall Chronz. Post ASG game score averages:

Giannis: 17.9
Towns: 17.2
Horford:14.0
Mislap: 14.5

Horford and Milsap aren't transcendent players. I like both guys, they're respectable late career all-stars but they're over 30 and are just as likely to begin slipping as Giannis is to blow up.

If you're a GM or owner do you allow the 22nd best player in the league to walk away for nothing to a conference rival? Do you sign a washed up moron who plays his same position to take his place before he gives you a formal answer? If you're a GM or owner do you allow the 22nd best player in the league to walk, and opt to give his money to Tyler Johnson? The answer is an obvious no. we still think more highly of these players than actual GMs do. or maybe it was more about that 4th and 5th year, long term money, I could get behind that as well.

I'm not necessarily a young player homer, see my comments about Rubio and Dunn in the Rubio/Dunn thread. But Towns and Giannis are special. they've already displayed post ASG glimpses of being superior to any players left on this list. this is about right now, I opt to plant my flag firmly in the Towns/Giannis camp. :around-the-world:

Shammyguy3
08-25-2016, 05:49 PM
Your signature says it all though lol. if I had to put a ranking on it I would say Wade was a top 10 best player in the playoffs easily which is pretty elite. I'm going to go with the guy I can rely on more to win games and Wade also played 74 games last year.

As a raptors fan, Wade is better than Lowry and better than anything we could throw at him in the playoffs. Thankfully we pulled it off though.

Curry
Lebron
Irving
Green
Thompson
Westbrook
George
Leonard
Durant
Aldridge

all played better than Wade in the playoffs in their totality; excluding guys that were hurt in the playoffs (Paul, Griffin)

so i don't think that holds valid reasoning anyways; also, a top-10 player in the playoffs is not really "Elite" - and I don't think you can rely on Wade to win games more than a lot of guys on this list for the totality of an entire 82 game season and the playoffs

Chronz
08-25-2016, 06:09 PM
Your signature says it all though lol. if I had to put a ranking on it I would say Wade was a top 10 best player in the playoffs easily which is pretty elite. I'm going to go with the guy I can rely on more to win games and Wade also played 74 games last year.

As a raptors fan, Wade is better than Lowry and better than anything we could throw at him in the playoffs. Thankfully we pulled it off though.

Why would you say something like that?

Chronz
08-25-2016, 06:17 PM
It's the same as it was with Towns, you don't have to project anything. the writing is already on the wall Chronz.
If its as weak as Towns argument was, I dont see what you're talking about.


Post ASG game score averages:

Giannis: 17.9
Towns: 17.2
Horford:14.0
Mislap: 14.5


Usage driven stats on bad teams where efficiency is all but ignored. No thank you, wake me up when those guys defend at an elite level


Horford and Milsap aren't transcendent players. I like both guys, they're respectable late career all-stars but they're over 30 and are just as likely to begin slipping as Giannis is to blow up.

I would hope so, but again, we're not suppose to be projecting that. Facts are, they were least impressive all year and isolating box score metrics with no regards to team influence wont sway anyone.


[QUOTE]If you're a GM or owner do you allow the 22nd best player in the league to walk away for nothing to a conference rival? Do you sign a washed up moron who plays his same position to take his place before he gives you a formal answer? If you're a GM or owner do you allow the 22nd best player in the league to walk, and opt to give his money to Tyler Johnson? The answer is an obvious no. we still think more highly of these players than actual GMs do. or maybe it was more about that 4th and 5th year, long term money, I could get behind that as well.

The answers are entirely dependent on what they tell their GM and yes, if you feel the fit is better you make all sorts of downgrades. It could just as easily blow up in their face but Id rather judge on what we KNOW.


I'm not necessarily a young player homer, see my comments about Rubio and Dunn in the Rubio/Dunn thread. But Towns and Giannis are special. they've already displayed post ASG glimpses of being superior to any players left on this list. this is about right now, I opt to plant my flag firmly in the Towns/Giannis camp. :around-the-world:

Thats not enough

6man
08-25-2016, 06:47 PM
Curry
Lebron
Irving
Green
Thompson
Westbrook
George
Leonard
Durant
Aldridge

all played better than Wade in the playoffs in their totality; excluding guys that were hurt in the playoffs (Paul, Griffin)

so i don't think that holds valid reasoning anyways; also, a top-10 player in the playoffs is not really "Elite" - and I don't think you can rely on Wade to win games more than a lot of guys on this list for the totality of an entire 82 game season and the playoffs

Green for sure not, Aldridge and Leonard didn't either. They played good against a D-League team but when the competition got serious against OKC they didn't do much of anything. I don't even think I saw a game where Kawhi took over in the playoffs which was kind of disappointing because I wanted him to take that next step.

I agree LeBron, Curry, Durant, and Westbrook played better as they should have but I think everyone else you listed is debatable. As a Raptors fan I was much more worried about Wade than I was George. But again, I don't have a dog in this fight I just wanted to give my perspective.

I'm guessing you're a Bulls fan by your signature and if so I think you are going to like what you get from Wade, as your signature says, he'll grow on you. We will obviously have to play the Cavs in the playoffs if we make it to the ECF depending on seeding but if there's a team I don't want to play on the way there it's you guys. Wade at this age is still a great playoff performer and Butler is our kryptonite and kills us every time so that would be a very frustrating series to watch. I actually like your guys set up this year although I may be in the minority.

6man
08-25-2016, 06:50 PM
Why would you say something like that?

He dominated man. I think it's getting overlooked that he had a team without Bosh and Whiteside 1 win away from the ECF. From what I saw he picked his spots in the first round but also had some big games where he was very clutch and then killed us in the 2nd round but in the end our depth was the deciding factor becuse they had Winslow at center lol. It wouldn't have been good for us but it would've been fun to see last years heat team at full strength with Bosh and Whiteside in the ECF last year.

Bruno
08-25-2016, 07:31 PM
If its as weak as Towns argument was, I dont see what you're talking about
common.


Usage driven stats on bad teams where efficiency is all but ignored. No thank you, wake me up when those guys defend at an elite level

Ignoring their post-all star production because GMS doesn't reflect efficiency only makes sense if there was a drastic difference in their recorded scoring efficiency and USG%. I understand your criticism of the statistic but it doesn't help your point in the comparisons. Efficiency metrics like TS% say its close, advantage young guys. I'd like to think we can look at their hard USG production and balance it with what we know about their TS% and feel balanced in that union. There's also not a drastic difference between Giannis and Milsap in post ASG USG, so it wouldn't be fair to say that Giannis is bulk producing at a higher level only because he has more opportunity.

Full season TS%:
Giannis: .566
Towns: .590
Mislap: .556
Horford: .565

Post ASG USG:
Giannis: 24.2%
Towns: 25.6%
Milsap: 23.7%
Horford: 19.9%



I would hope so, but again, we're not suppose to be projecting that. Facts are, they were least impressive all year and isolating box score metrics with no regards to team influence wont sway anyone.
Again, not projecting. Their post ASG hard numbers and efficiency numbers are what they are.

This analysis is for right now, not next year, not last year. I'm being bullish on the future but you're being equally bullish on the past.



The answers are entirely dependent on what they tell their GM and yes, if you feel the fit is better you make all sorts of downgrades. It could just as easily blow up in their face but Id rather judge on what we KNOW.
Because Dwight Howard is a better fit with Atlanta than Al Horford was?

what we know is that non-transcendent all-stars see a drop off in production as they approach 31-32, Milsap is right in that age range. We also know that budding all-stars usually complete their leap in year four, Giannis is right there. we shouldn't ignore trends with high upside players, or aging players, those are things we should know and be able to predict with some accuracy.



Thats not enough
It is for me.

Ill take it easy on you in March. you're usually right you're just late to the party here. ;)

Bruno
08-25-2016, 07:33 PM
getting into a basketball debate with Chronz is like fighting with your older brother while your dads listening from the other room. sure, he's older, wiser, probably smarter, and usually right. but god damn does it feel good when he's wrong and dad approves. here, dad is time.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 07:39 PM
Good stuff Bruno, Ill check it out in abit. You prolly got me tho, sucks when the stats dont back me

Bruno
08-25-2016, 07:46 PM
Good stuff Bruno, Ill check it out in abit. You prolly got me tho, sucks when the stats dont back me

yeah but notice that I didn't offer a rebuttal to what you said about their defense. Milsap is elite and I really have nothing to stand on with that. There I am projecting. I'm going to run some numbers on Noah pre and post Thibs to try to get a grasp on what we could maybe expect from Towns next year. But maybe thats a fools errand because Noah was entering his 4th season when Thibs became coach.

With Giannis I'm fishing, although what happened to their team defensive rating between 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 with the subtraction of Zaza is fascinating. I'd like to think they can get back on the horse as a team defensively and that the versatility of Giannis as a body who can occasionally bang with bigs but more importantly switch on the perimeter ends up paying dividends. but even if it goes that way, I'm sure Id have a hard time saying he's on the same level as Milsap defensively, even with a 4th year break out, even with Milsap turning 32 before post-season.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 08:00 PM
yeah but notice that I didn't offer a rebuttal to what you said about their defense. Milsap is elite and I really have nothing to stand on with that. There I am projecting. I'm going to run some numbers on Noah pre and post Thibs to try to get a grasp on what we could maybe expect from Towns next year. But maybe thats a fools errand because Noah was entering his 4th season when Thibs became coach.

With Giannis I'm fishing, although what happened to their team defensive rating between 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 with the subtraction of Zaza is fascinating. I'd like to think they can get back on the horse as a team defensively and that the versatility of Giannis as a body who can occasionally bang with bigs but more importantly switch on the perimeter ends up paying dividends. but even if it goes that way, I'm sure Id have a hard time saying he's on the same level as Milsap defensively, even with a 4th year break out, even with Milsap turning 32 before post-season.
So many different tangents I want to go on, the best part is, I dont think I would bore you with them either. The thing is, we were too lazy back in the day. I forget who my partner was but we were trying to archive all the synergy data from the early 2010's era. It was prolly PSK or some Knicks/Celtics fan.... anyways, what I remember on Noah is that he went from a 1v1 liability who could suppress the production of all the other positions (much like a young KG) but as the league went away from brutes in the middle, Noah graded out much better. I dont know if that has to do with the revolution of the game or if it had to do with Noah bulking up.

Thats the problem we find ourselves now, what constitutes an elite defender may not have been one as recently as 2011. All I gots to say is these kids are lucky there is no Shaq on the horizon, Shaq made it so every team had to have a 7ft stiff to absorb his initial hit (PJ loved/feared Longley for that). If anyone slayed the center position, it was Shaq. Kids legit grew up in fear of having to bang down low against Shaq, IIRC, C-Webb was adamant about not defending him. If Shaq never came around, its possible we have the small ball revolution far sooner.

Shammyguy3
08-25-2016, 09:24 PM
Green for sure not, Aldridge and Leonard didn't either. They played good against a D-League team but when the competition got serious against OKC they didn't do much of anything. I don't even think I saw a game where Kawhi took over in the playoffs which was kind of disappointing because I wanted him to take that next step.

I agree LeBron, Curry, Durant, and Westbrook played better as they should have but I think everyone else you listed is debatable. As a Raptors fan I was much more worried about Wade than I was George. But again, I don't have a dog in this fight I just wanted to give my perspective.

I'm guessing you're a Bulls fan by your signature and if so I think you are going to like what you get from Wade, as your signature says, he'll grow on you. We will obviously have to play the Cavs in the playoffs if we make it to the ECF depending on seeding but if there's a team I don't want to play on the way there it's you guys. Wade at this age is still a great playoff performer and Butler is our kryptonite and kills us every time so that would be a very frustrating series to watch. I actually like your guys set up this year although I may be in the minority.

Playoffs:
Green: 15/10/6 1.6spg 1.8bpg only 2.4 turnovers, 113 ORtg 54.9ts% 0.171 WS/48 7.1 BPM 2.0 VORP 18.6 PER

Aldridge: 22/8/1 1.5 bpg only 1.2 turnovers, 117 ORtg 57.9ts% 0.223 WS/48 1.8 BPM 0.3 VORP 25.0 PER

Leonard: 22.5/6/3 2.6spg 1.4 bpg only 1.6 turnovers, 118 ORtg 59.7ts% 0.271 WS/48 10.6 BPM 1.1 VORP 28.6 PER


Wade: 21.4/5.6/4.3 0.8spg 1.0bpg 2.7 turnovers, 105 ORtg 53.2ts% 0.148 WS/48 4.0 BPM 0.7 VORP


Don't see how Wade is better in any capacity; he's the worst defender he was the least efficient by a noticeable margin (even though those other players have more help, yes i understand that), he cannot impact the game with his quickness like he used to (as evident by his free throw rate dropping):

and Wade was only THAT good in the playoffs because he was on a hot streak from 3 point land: he shot 52.2% (12/23), whereas on the regular season he shot 7/44 for 16%, the year prior 28.4%, the year prior 28.1%, the year prior 25.8%,.... i can keep going, but you understand that is the only saving grace for his efficiency in the post-season being average.

Take away 6 of those made shots and he shoots his career average, misses out on 18 points, his scoring output per game drops over 1 point, his true shooting rate drops to 49.9%, his ORtg drops to below 100, etc


So i just disagree



He dominated man. I think it's getting overlooked that he had a team without Bosh and Whiteside 1 win away from the ECF. From what I saw he picked his spots in the first round but also had some big games where he was very clutch and then killed us in the 2nd round but in the end our depth was the deciding factor becuse they had Winslow at center lol. It wouldn't have been good for us but it would've been fun to see last years heat team at full strength with Bosh and Whiteside in the ECF last year.

I explained above, he didn't. He played well, given who his teammates were (even though his team was way more talented than the Bobcats, which you don't recognize as a D-league team but say that the Grizzlies are?

6man
08-25-2016, 09:44 PM
Playoffs:
Green: 15/10/6 1.6spg 1.8bpg only 2.4 turnovers, 113 ORtg 54.9ts% 0.171 WS/48 7.1 BPM 2.0 VORP 18.6 PER

Aldridge: 22/8/1 1.5 bpg only 1.2 turnovers, 117 ORtg 57.9ts% 0.223 WS/48 1.8 BPM 0.3 VORP 25.0 PER

Leonard: 22.5/6/3 2.6spg 1.4 bpg only 1.6 turnovers, 118 ORtg 59.7ts% 0.271 WS/48 10.6 BPM 1.1 VORP 28.6 PER


Wade: 21.4/5.6/4.3 0.8spg 1.0bpg 2.7 turnovers, 105 ORtg 53.2ts% 0.148 WS/48 4.0 BPM 0.7 VORP


Don't see how Wade is better in any capacity; he's the worst defender he was the least efficient by a noticeable margin (even though those other players have more help, yes i understand that), he cannot impact the game with his quickness like he used to (as evident by his free throw rate dropping):

and Wade was only THAT good in the playoffs because he was on a hot streak from 3 point land: he shot 52.2% (12/23), whereas on the regular season he shot 7/44 for 16%, the year prior 28.4%, the year prior 28.1%, the year prior 25.8%,.... i can keep going, but you understand that is the only saving grace for his efficiency in the post-season being average.

Take away 6 of those made shots and he shoots his career average, misses out on 18 points, his scoring output per game drops over 1 point, his true shooting rate drops to 49.9%, his ORtg drops to below 100, etc


So i just disagree




I explained above, he didn't. He played well, given who his teammates were (even though his team was way more talented than the Bobcats, which you don't recognize as a D-league team but say that the Grizzlies are?

There's much more to the game than stats. You can't tell me any of those guys took over games like Wade did this last offseason.

That Grizzlies team started their 2nd maybe even 3rd string that's why I referred to them as d-league. They had a ton of injuries to their best player. That Hornets team was very solid and tied for the 3rd seed.

archdevil84
08-25-2016, 10:55 PM
Wade was a fcking beast defensively in the playoffs. I dont realy know why he's stil up on the board

HandsOnTheWheel
08-25-2016, 11:03 PM
I'll have to disagree with Shyguy here.

Shammyguy3
08-25-2016, 11:03 PM
There's much more to the game than stats. You can't tell me any of those guys took over games like Wade did this last offseason.

That Grizzlies team started their 2nd maybe even 3rd string that's why I referred to them as d-league. They had a ton of injuries to their best player. That Hornets team was very solid and tied for the 3rd seed.
That hornets team was the definition of mediocre. And yes all of those guys took games over more than Wade, they are able to do it in more ways than Wade can which isn't as flashy so many ignore it

6man
08-25-2016, 11:11 PM
Wade was a fcking beast defensively in the playoffs. I dont realy know why he's stil up on the board

A monster and I would love to see his clutch statistics on both sides of the ball.

6man
08-25-2016, 11:17 PM
That hornets team was the definition of mediocre. And yes all of those guys took games over more than Wade, they are able to do it in more ways than Wade can which isn't as flashy so many ignore it

But they really didn't lol. People can call it flashy or whatever but I think he's getting a bad rep becuse people think he's washed up due to age and that's not true. That Hornets team was tied for the 3rd seed in a tougher conference and had a pretty solid player at every position and a few off the bench. Although I think the refs were pretty one sided from what I saw in the series which helped the Hornets they are still far better than that Grizzlies team due to injury and it's not even close. What games did Kawhi or Green take over? Or Millsap, Horford, Towns, etc. I just don't believe anyone else on this list and even some that have already been picked can effect a game the way playoff Wade came. He almost single handedly beat us and I considered us a pretty damn good team.

Also lets not forget how great Wade was in late game situations. I could be wrong but I would say he was the best if I had to guess.

Bruno
08-26-2016, 03:21 PM
not looking to pick a fight with you Wade voters, but I wouldn't vote Wade in the top 40. All of the big men and a dozen other wings and small players should go before him. am i the only person who thinks Wade votes are coming 15 spots too early? he was impressive in the playoffs, but he's not the same player he was three years ago, and far removed from what he was in 2009.

6man
08-26-2016, 04:38 PM
not looking to pick a fight with you Wade voters, but I wouldn't vote Wade in the top 40. All of the big men and a dozen other wings and small players should go before him. am i the only person who thinks Wade votes are coming 15 spots too early? he was impressive in the playoffs, but he's not the same player he was three years ago, and far removed from what he was in 2009.

Just becuse he's not the same player anymore doesn't mean he's fallen off the face of the earth. Almost every player on this list is far away from what Wade used to be as well.

Bruno
08-26-2016, 05:03 PM
Just becuse he's not the same player anymore doesn't mean he's fallen off the face of the earth. Almost every player on this list is far away from what Wade used to be as well.

Right, but Luol Deng out produced Wade in every non USG based stat out there. the Heat as a team have more than one player who can say that. for example:

1) 5th on his own team in VORP
2) tied for 4th in BPM
3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)

The advanced metric that Wade did dominate was USG%, at 31.6 (seven percentage points above the second highest player, Bosh). Wade has the ball in his hand a lot, he's flashy, he has a special place in our hearts. But the reality is that his skill set isn't conducive to winning in 2017.

Pat let him walk because he knew deep down that Wade was holding back the rest of the team. he's a ball stopper who still displays moments of greatness (like many washed up transcendental players do). but the numbers, the front office decisions, and the new direction of the Miami Heat tell another story. They chose Dragic and Tyler Johnson. Why?

What I'm getting at is that Wade occasionally passes the eye test, so I get the sentiment. Especially in the playoffs he certainly did (until game 7). all the advanced metrics suggest that his style of play didn't help Miami. Pats decision suggests that as well. I just think we should consider that. I think he jumped into the time machine every other game in last years post-season and that its clouding our memory on his 95+ game season long impact, where the numbers suggest what they suggest.

Bruno
08-26-2016, 06:11 PM
So many different tangents I want to go on, the best part is, I dont think I would bore you with them either. Even your tangents are more interesting than most the published swill that mascarades as legitimate basketball writing. please do.


The thing is, we were too lazy back in the day. I forget who my partner was but we were trying to archive all the synergy data from the early 2010's era. It was prolly PSK or some Knicks/Celtics fan....
you were doing this in 2010-2012?


anyways, what I remember on Noah is that he went from a 1v1 liability who could suppress the production of all the other positions (much like a young KG) but as the league went away from brutes in the middle, Noah graded out much better. I dont know if that has to do with the revolution of the game or if it had to do with Noah bulking up.
fascinating.

unrealistic to expect a similar adjusted from a sophomore like Towns?


Thats the problem we find ourselves now, what constitutes an elite defender may not have been one as recently as 2011.This continues to blow my mind. Not just in basketball, but in life as well. worlds changed a lot the past five years.


All I gots to say is these kids are lucky there is no Shaq on the horizon, Shaq made it so every team had to have a 7ft stiff to absorb his initial hit (PJ loved/feared Longley for that). If anyone slayed the center position, it was Shaq. Kids legit grew up in fear of having to bang down low against Shaq, IIRC, C-Webb was adamant about not defending him. If Shaq never came around, its possible we have the small ball revolution far sooner.
I buy that.

Wilt is really the only player in NBA history who even had the body and skill set to slow down peak Shaq. Shaq, didn't change the game, but he kept it the same. thats just as spectacular a feat if you ask me.

jason
08-26-2016, 06:44 PM
But they really didn't lol. People can call it flashy or whatever but I think he's getting a bad rep becuse people think he's washed up due to age and that's not true. That Hornets team was tied for the 3rd seed in a tougher conference and had a pretty solid player at every position and a few off the bench. Although I think the refs were pretty one sided from what I saw in the series which helped the Hornets they are still far better than that Grizzlies team due to injury and it's not even close. What games did Kawhi or Green take over? Or Millsap, Horford, Towns, etc. I just don't believe anyone else on this list and even some that have already been picked can effect a game the way playoff Wade came. He almost single handedly beat us and I considered us a pretty damn good team.

Also lets not forget how great Wade was in late game situations. I could be wrong but I would say he was the best if I had to guess.

You obviously didn't watch Green in the playoffs or the Finals

6man
08-26-2016, 07:44 PM
You obviously didn't watch Green in the playoffs or the Finals

I watched every game of the playoffs/Finals. How many games did Green take over? IMO Green hurt the team a lot more than he helped them. Don't get me wrong they would've still got smacked in game 6 if he didn't get suspended but that was dumb of him and he should've been suspended at least 3 times. He brought a lot of negativity to the team and let his team down. I will say he was the only one who showed up in game 7 though.

jason
08-26-2016, 08:58 PM
I watched every game of the playoffs/Finals. How many games did Green take over? IMO Green hurt the team a lot more than he helped them. Don't get me wrong they would've still got smacked in game 6 if he didn't get suspended but that was dumb of him and he should've been suspended at least 3 times. He brought a lot of negativity to the team and let his team down. I will say he was the only one who showed up in game 7 though.

How are you still asking that question if you watched every game? It sounds like you only watched one games outside the Raptors and Heat series. The only series he did poorly was in OKC. It wasn't even game 6. It was game 5 and I don't being smacked since it was only 15 points without Green. He definitely would have helped. It sounds like you need to re-watch every game again outside the Wade series

6man
08-27-2016, 12:10 AM
How are you still asking that question if you watched every game? It sounds like you only watched one games outside the Raptors and Heat series. The only series he did poorly was in OKC. It wasn't even game 6. It was game 5 and I don't being smacked since it was only 15 points without Green. He definitely would have helped. It sounds like you need to re-watch every game again outside the Wade series

So no answer to my question? I believe Green is very overrated. Supposedly a top 2 PF yet can't get any clock for USA and when he does he played terrible. I watched literally every game in the playoffs and was blown away by nothing I saw Green do.

jason
08-27-2016, 12:15 AM
So no answer to my question? I believe Green is very overrated. Supposedly a top 2 PF yet can't get any clock for USA and when he does he played terrible. I watched literally every game in the playoffs and was blown away by nothing I saw Green do.
Try game 3 vs POR, game 2 & 7 vs CLE while still playing better defensively than Wade.. If anyone is being overrated it's Wade

More-Than-Most
08-27-2016, 01:23 AM
not looking to pick a fight with you Wade voters, but I wouldn't vote Wade in the top 40. All of the big men and a dozen other wings and small players should go before him. am i the only person who thinks Wade votes are coming 15 spots too early? he was impressive in the playoffs, but he's not the same player he was three years ago, and far removed from what he was in 2009.

I said he would be in the 30-40 range this year as well. I dont mind him going around 25-30 for his playoff ability but anything before 25 is just sickening.

More-Than-Most
08-27-2016, 01:26 AM
So no answer to my question? I believe Green is very overrated. Supposedly a top 2 PF yet can't get any clock for USA and when he does he played terrible. I watched literally every game in the playoffs and was blown away by nothing I saw Green do.

I hate the guy... I really really really do but how wasnt he their best player in the playoffs? He literally does everything and this is me eating crow because I thought Thad Young-----------> Green in terms of who I would want on my team 2 off seasons ago... The dude is sick.

archdevil84
08-27-2016, 08:37 AM
tbh im talking strictly playoff wade. i know that for the reg season wade probably isnt top 30-40 (even though i think he could be if he realy wanted to). for the playoffs he was certainly one of the top 10 players imo. wade basically carried us in the raptors series. Apart from deng in the first round and 2 or 3 games from dragic, nobody on the heat team had a great playoffs anyway. Also count in the factor that they played the entire raptors series basically without a center. To me, what wade did in the playoffs puts him ahead of a lot of players on this list but then again, im talking playoffs only

6man
08-27-2016, 10:38 AM
Try game 3 vs POR, game 2 & 7 vs CLE while still playing better defensively than Wade.. If anyone is being overrated it's Wade

You just mentioned 2 games they lost. I rest my case. Wade played really good defense in the playoffs as well.

6man
08-27-2016, 10:40 AM
I said he would be in the 30-40 range this year as well. I dont mind him going around 25-30 for his playoff ability but anything before 25 is just sickening.

Who left on the list do you take over Wade?

jason
08-27-2016, 02:14 PM
You just mentioned 2 games they lost. I rest my case. Wade played really good defense in the playoffs as well.
You mean like Wade did too lol

6man
08-27-2016, 02:23 PM
You mean like Wade did too lol

Your argument is terrible. You tried to point out games that Green took over and dominated and they lost the games you mentioned. As I said, I rest my case.

jason
08-27-2016, 02:33 PM
Your argument is terrible. You tried to point out games that Green took over and dominated and they lost the games you mentioned. As I said, I rest my case.
I haven't seen you back your statement other than say Wade played well in the playoffs. How about the game 7 when they got eliminated? He played terrible

6man
08-27-2016, 08:40 PM
I haven't seen you back your statement other than say Wade played well in the playoffs. How about the game 7 when they got eliminated? He played terrible

Green had multiple games worse than that one though. Another bad argument.

Shammyguy3
08-27-2016, 11:40 PM
Instead of comparing players over an entire 82-game regular season, and the playoffs, we're comparing them over a handful of really bad or really good games? what a waste of time and energy

More-Than-Most
08-27-2016, 11:51 PM
Who left on the list do you take over Wade?

Conley/Horford/Dwight/Jordan/Gasol/Millsap... Just to name a few

6man
08-28-2016, 12:12 AM
Conley/Horford/Dwight/Jordan/Gasol/Millsap... Just to name a few

That's terrible.

FlashBolt
08-28-2016, 01:22 AM
Thomas never gets any respect. Dude is largely responsible for the Celtics success. Plays with more heart than anyone outside Westbrook IMO. He should go top 25.

jason
08-29-2016, 12:22 AM
Instead of comparing players over an entire 82-game regular season, and the playoffs, we're comparing them over a handful of really bad or really good games? what a waste of time and energy
You're right. With that Green is easily better

ewing
08-29-2016, 10:11 AM
Thomas never gets any respect. Dude is largely responsible for the Celtics success. Plays with more heart than anyone outside Westbrook IMO. He should go top 25.


I voted for him