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View Full Version : Should non-U.S. teams consolidate to be more competitive?



mrblisterdundee
08-22-2016, 04:10 PM
The U.S. can't really be beat by another country in international play. They can only beat themselves, as happened in 2004 and nearly against Serbia this year.
The Ringer had a piece on the talent gap and how the U.S. is going against countries with a much lower population and talent pool to draw from:

The U.S. will be heavy favorites in 2020, regardless. The United States is a country with a population of over 300 million people. Serbia has a population of just over 7 million; Croatia has a population of 4.5 million; Lithuania checks in at a little under 3 million. Considering the talent pool through raw population numbers, a fair fight with the U.S. would mean playing a team representing the entire European Union.
- The Ringer (https://theringer.com/2016-olympics-team-usa-mens-basketball-goliath-ca3086bb1239#.vy6sefh9o)
Instead of the U.S. adjusting its roster for parity, should the rest of the world consolidate to create more competitive squads like the European Union, or team Americas (without the U.S.), Asia, Africa and Oceana? There's the matter of national pride, but how proud can you be when getting slaughtered on the regular?

Oefarmy2005
08-22-2016, 04:13 PM
The US won multiple games by less than 5 points, so they are very beatable. Quite honestly, I think Spain would have won gold this year if they were healthy.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2016, 05:19 PM
Basketball just happens to be a sport we will always be the best at. Just like the US will probably never be a soccer dominator.

bloomis1307
08-22-2016, 05:53 PM
Last time I checked, China's population dwarfs the U.S. population. By this logic you are suggesting that they should be dominating the Olympics in every sport yet they still had a lower medal and gold count than the U.S.

Simply put I disagree this should never happen and using just population doesn't even anything out.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2016, 06:19 PM
wtf?????????????

Kyben36
08-22-2016, 06:35 PM
LOL.... NO. just ****ing stupid. its the olympics, should we get to pick one soccer player cause we suck at soccer, LOL.

also, not sure if you watch this olympics, but this team sucked ( like really bad) no ball movement, no defense in the starting lineup. way to much one on one play. which made us easy to defend. its not like we blew out every team, in fact, we had our struggles.

Yes, we have the most tallented basketball team in the world, its also because we invented basketball, and the rest of the world is catching up. we should not consolidate, its an absolutely absurd idea.

ballallday
08-22-2016, 06:47 PM
LOL.... NO. just ****ing stupid. its the olympics, should we get to pick one soccer player cause we suck at soccer, LOL.

also, not sure if you watch this olympics, but this team sucked ( like really bad) no ball movement, no defense in the starting lineup. way to much one on one play. which made us easy to defend. its not like we blew out every team, in fact, we had our struggles.

Yes, we have the most tallented basketball team in the world, its also because we invented basketball, and the rest of the world is catching up. we should not consolidate, its an absolutely absurd idea.

So we are clear and please tell your US friends: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith

A Canadian invented basketball, not an american. I went to school in the US for the last 2 years of high school and its funny how they gloss over that it was invented by a Canadian...

I do however agree with your point, the rest of the world is catching up! olympic basketball will be great 4-8 years from now (hopefully).

IndyRealist
08-22-2016, 10:20 PM
LOL the reason the US has better basketball teams is because the traits that make a good basketball player are the same traits that make a good soccer player. Most countries almost exclusive feed those athletes into soccer clubs unless they're unreasonably tall. Soccer's massively more popular than basketball in the vast majority of the world.

BKLYNpigeon
08-22-2016, 10:57 PM
No.


US doesn't have a lot of Kids playing soccer and don't have the right system for it. So we Suck at it.

Same goes for the world with basketball.

Clint Olbrock
08-22-2016, 10:59 PM
So we are clear and please tell your US friends: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith

A Canadian invented basketball, not an american. I went to school in the US for the last 2 years of high school and its funny how they gloss over that it was invented by a Canadian...

I do however agree with your point, the rest of the world is catching up! olympic basketball will be great 4-8 years from now (hopefully).

Duh, lol

Sure, he was Canadian. When he invented basketball, he was living in the United States.. What is your point?

JasonJohnHorn
08-22-2016, 10:59 PM
Of course not. I appreciate what you are saying. You want to see competitive games at the Olympics. It makes sense.

But do we ask Usain Bolt to slow down when he's 3 metre ahead of the next closest guy? No.

You wouldn't let the four fastest people run against Jamaica's relay team, right?


No. The rest of the world will catch up. America has twice lost the gold in the last 30 years. It will happen again. Especially since so many top-tier athletes get tired of playing at the Olympics. The system is working well now because coach K gets a commitment form players and they play together every year, but it's going to be hard to maintain that.

ballallday
08-22-2016, 11:18 PM
Duh, lol

Sure, he was Canadian. When he invented basketball, he was living in the United States.. What is your point?

When you say "its also because we invented basketball, and the rest of the world is catching up" its false / wrong - thats my point... your wrong. Its also an absurd statement to begin with. It makes no difference where a sport was invented, most sports originated in Great Britain like hockey but the british suck at that... Its about adoption not about invention.

I heard Canadians invented baseball http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/17/first-baseball-game-canada_n_3611297.html again nothing to do with being good at a sport

NYKalltheway
08-23-2016, 05:36 AM
LOL the reason the US has better basketball teams is because the traits that make a good basketball player are the same traits that make a good soccer player. Most countries almost exclusive feed those athletes into soccer clubs unless they're unreasonably tall. Soccer's massively more popular than basketball in the vast majority of the world.

What?
In basketball you need to be at least above average height at worst, or 6"5 and over in general. The greatest football players of all time are usually average or below average height.

tredigs
08-23-2016, 06:27 AM
What?
In basketball you need to be at least above average height at worst, or 6"5 and over in general. The greatest football players of all time are usually average or below average height.

Yeah, that made absolutely no sense. Zidane was one of the taller greats in football history and he is shorter than Tony Parker.

Chronz
08-23-2016, 11:54 AM
Its an interesting proposal but I doubt it flies. One official reportedly told Coangelo that we should just start playing with only 4 players. Maybe thats what we have to do because we honestly tried to give it away this year.

We sent our least talented team, that had zero chemistry together, for a coach who couldn't find the right balance between his defensive and offensive oriented players and we crushed the Finals.

Its a 1 and done tournament, Team USA will eventually lose, it has to, how much longer can we possibly sustain this streak? The World got worse since last Olympics and the lack of a new generation is troubling but isn't Canada suppose to break out soon?

hugepatsfan
08-23-2016, 01:00 PM
It's the Olympics. You can't just consolidate. It goes by country lol

IndyRealist
08-23-2016, 01:51 PM
What?
In basketball you need to be at least above average height at worst, or 6"5 and over in general. The greatest football players of all time are usually average or below average height.

"unless they're unreasonably tall"

tredigs
08-23-2016, 02:16 PM
"unless they're unreasonably tall"

That caveat being by far the single most important attribute for NBA level talent. I highly doubt there is much NBA level talent hiding within the bodies of Lionel Messi and Luis Suarez.

The reason why the US is so far ahead of the rest of the world is because we A) Have a population of nearly 50 million African Americans in a non war-torn country, B) Have basketball ingrained in our culture, with courts strewn through every school, park, neighborhood and backyard throughout America, and C) Have top-level year round basketball leagues + elite programs at the college level.

No other nation is going to catch up to those three combined factors. Ever.

Now, we may eventually run into other nations who are able to field an 8 man rotation of elite NBA level talent that could rival whatever team we send, but barring something unforeseen, on the whole no other nation will ever have the talent pool to choose from that the US has. You could have an alternate reality where every player from every nation who has joined soccer at a young age instead pursued basketball, and this would still be the case. The tall/strong Christiano Ronaldo of soccer fame is a 6'1" pipsqueek in the association. Conversely, virtually none of these NBA players would have a shot in hell at making it in La Liga, regardless of whether that was their chosen sport from Day 1. The bodies don't translate.

tredigs
08-23-2016, 02:32 PM
^Sorry, more so than just "the bodies don't translate" for NBA to the top soccer leagues abroad (because some of them do), it's also the fact that we don't have the game ingrained in American culture, and don't have top coaches and academies throughout this country like they do elsewhere. Even if all the American NBA players chose to go with soccer from day 1, they would still have to overcome significant disadvantages from living in America to ever have a shot at making it as a top 150 player worldwide (equivalent to being an NBA level starter), let alone an All-World level talent.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 03:41 PM
If the Canadian players all played for team Canada they could compete maybe once their players are developed.

Wiggins, Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, Jamal Murray, Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Ennis.. not to bad.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 03:46 PM
If Marc Gasol was healthy, I bet Spain could have given the U.S a run for their money. Marc and Pau in the front court would be very, very good.

albertajaysfan
08-23-2016, 04:10 PM
If the Canadian players all played for team Canada they could compete maybe once their players are developed.

Wiggins, Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, Jamal Murray, Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Ennis.. not to bad.

add in Trey Lyles, Andrew Nicholson, Robert Sacre, Dwight Powell, Melvin Ejim, Olivier Hanlan, and Nik Staukas.

Canada needs some more guard depth but are starting to have a decent pool of talent to draw from. The issue they have is too many of them didn't want to play this time around or were young. Should be interesting to see what the team looks like in 2018 for FIBAs.

tredigs
08-23-2016, 04:30 PM
If the Canadian players all played for team Canada they could compete maybe once their players are developed.

Wiggins, Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, Jamal Murray, Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Ennis.. not to bad.

It's a 1 and done tournament so as far as that goes anything is possible, but that would be the worst team in the NBA, they're not anywhere close to the talent level of a non-playoff team like the Jazz, let alone Team USA. "Compete" as in not get embarrassed sure, but not a true threat.

IndyRealist
08-23-2016, 05:37 PM
^Sorry, more so than just "the bodies don't translate" for NBA to the top soccer leagues abroad (because some of them do), it's also the fact that we don't have the game ingrained in American culture, and don't have top coaches and academies throughout this country like they do elsewhere. Even if all the American NBA players chose to go with soccer from day 1, they would still have to overcome significant disadvantages from living in America to ever have a shot at making it as a top 150 player worldwide (equivalent to being an NBA level starter), let alone an All-World level talent.

That was implied in my original statement, that soccer is massively more popular than basketball in the vast majority of the world. That's where they put resources.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 05:39 PM
It's a 1 and done tournament so as far as that goes anything is possible, but that would be the worst team in the NBA, they're not anywhere close to the talent level of a non-playoff team like the Jazz, let alone Team USA. "Compete" as in not get embarrassed sure, but not a true threat.

I dunno man, teams with less talent gave the U.S a pretty good run for their money. But yeah I get what you're saying.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 05:40 PM
add in Trey Lyles, Andrew Nicholson, Robert Sacre, Dwight Powell, Melvin Ejim, Olivier Hanlan, and Nik Staukas.

Canada needs some more guard depth but are starting to have a decent pool of talent to draw from. The issue they have is too many of them didn't want to play this time around or were young. Should be interesting to see what the team looks like in 2018 for FIBAs.

depending on how some of these young players develop they can be a pretty good team. Id settle for silver :)

sep11ie
08-23-2016, 06:45 PM
Maybe we should give everybody golds.

Dade County
08-24-2016, 12:34 PM
The U.S. can't really be beat by another country in international play. They can only beat themselves, as happened in 2004 and nearly against Serbia this year.
The Ringer had a piece on the talent gap and how the U.S. is going against countries with a much lower population and talent pool to draw from:

Instead of the U.S. adjusting its roster for parity, should the rest of the world consolidate to create more competitive squads like the European Union, or team Americas (without the U.S.), Asia, Africa and Oceana? There's the matter of national pride, but how proud can you be when getting slaughtered on the regular?

I like it, but i dont know if it should be for the Olympics. But i would like for your idea to happen.

JasonJohnHorn
08-24-2016, 01:33 PM
It would be nice if at the end of the Olympics, like on close day, they had an all-world team square off against the US. I know sometimes the Olympics has stuff like that. In the winter olympics one year, the figure skaters did a show where they pull out moves they aren't allowed to use in competition. It would be interesting to see gymnasts do the same, or see the 8 fastest guys square off against each other in a relay race.

But, no... the tournament functions well as it stands.

Heediot
08-24-2016, 02:54 PM
Allow the other teams to draft 3 US players that didn't make the US team lol.

Imagine Canada being able to add Bradley Beal, Brook Lopez, and Eric Bledsoe. Maybe they can pull an upset in a one and done format.

NYKalltheway
08-25-2016, 05:45 AM
It's funny, but about 10 years ago the NBA rejected to participate in a world tournament against the best teams of each continent and inside information from the Euroleague were saying that it was because the NBA was afraid it'd be exposed as a weaker league than it markets itself to be and Stern also refused to play under FIBA rules. Sure, it's a different time now (since 2012 or so) and even European teams struggle to keep up with their former selves, so we may get something like that in the future. 5 years ago the NBA had something to be afraid of, today, meh. Euroleague has declined a lot since then. And the rest of the world never really had any chance.

IndyRealist
08-25-2016, 09:52 AM
It's funny, but about 10 years ago the NBA rejected to participate in a world tournament against the best teams of each continent and inside information from the Euroleague were saying that it was because the NBA was afraid it'd be exposed as a weaker league than it markets itself to be and Stern also refused to play under FIBA rules. Sure, it's a different time now (since 2012 or so) and even European teams struggle to keep up with their former selves, so we may get something like that in the future. 5 years ago the NBA had something to be afraid of, today, meh. Euroleague has declined a lot since then. And the rest of the world never really had any chance.

Yeah, 10 years ago Greece, Argentina, Croatia, and Spain were all powerhouses. Probabaly because those guys were the kids who watched the Dream Team 14 years earlier and wanted to be MJ instead of Pele.

NYKalltheway
08-26-2016, 01:06 PM
Yeah, 10 years ago Greece, Argentina, Croatia, and Spain were all powerhouses. Probabaly because those guys were the kids who watched the Dream Team 14 years earlier and wanted to be MJ instead of Pele.

Not really. As for Greece, it was Nick Galis, 80s and early 90s who was most influential.

Michael Jordan did have an impact with people loving the NBA, but it didn't create a basketball trend. Basketball is not a popular career choice overseas, not unless you're 6ft7 or taller. And that's a small minority.

aman_13
08-27-2016, 07:20 PM
LOL.... NO. just ****ing stupid. its the olympics, should we get to pick one soccer player cause we suck at soccer, LOL.

also, not sure if you watch this olympics, but this team sucked ( like really bad) no ball movement, no defense in the starting lineup. way to much one on one play. which made us easy to defend. its not like we blew out every team, in fact, we had our struggles.

Yes, we have the most tallented basketball team in the world, its also because we invented basketball, and the rest of the world is catching up. we should not consolidate, its an absolutely absurd idea.

It's Canada's sport lol. Well kind of...

IndyRealist
08-27-2016, 07:31 PM
Not really. As for Greece, it was Nick Galis, 80s and early 90s who was most influential.

Michael Jordan did have an impact with people loving the NBA, but it didn't create a basketball trend. Basketball is not a popular career choice overseas, not unless you're 6ft7 or taller. And that's a small minority.
Going back looking at the 2004 Olympics, I must have been thinking of Italy or Lithuania.

NYKalltheway
08-30-2016, 04:03 AM
Going back looking at the 2004 Olympics, I must have been thinking of Italy or Lithuania.

Lithuania has been basketball crazy since the 1930s. No NBA influence whatsoever.
Italy has had the best league in Europe from the late 70s till the early 90s so I don't think there's much NBA influence there either. The modern generations have that but some just grew up to a strong 90s Italian national team. Basketball in Europe is something that is sparked by the success of the national team or someone's local team usually. No one seriously grabs a ball to practice and improve himself just because he thinks he can fly like MJ.

The NBA didn't influence that many people in Europe to get a ball and play. It's a more common thing now with all the cultural melting pots and lack of conservatism. It affected kids (under 12 years old etc) but most teens+ concentrated on the domestic and continental competitions as it was peaking at the time. I'm talking about the 90s and the early 2000s. The NBA actually sort of died in Europe in 1998, just a few hardcore fans until the NBA rebranded (and most idolized players were Shaq, T-Mac, Duncan, Garnett, Vince Carter and Kobe, probably in that order) and started promoting globally through Yao Ming. Even Dirk Nowitzki was rather unknown to the average European basketball fan (Germans did know him of course) up to 2004 or something.

The NBA got big again in 2008 (Celtics vs Lakers) but still not as big as the Euroleague in the countries where it was played (so that excludes the big countries such as Germany and France) and since 2011 or so the Euroleague started to decline and clubs had shrunk their budgets by more than half so it's in a rough patch now and the NBA is gaining more fans in "Euroleague regions". You see people with Steph Curry jerseys all over the place since last year. 3 years ago, 95% of them probably never heard of the guy and were more familiar with Chris Paul, Tony Parker and guys like Diamantidis, Navarro and Teodosic who were important guards in Europe.

If anything, I remember NBA fans in (south) Europe being mocked for following it in the 2000s. For various reasons that I'd rather not point out at the moment.