PDA

View Full Version : (67-52) Boston Red Sox vs Detroit Tigers (63-57)



Green_Monster
08-17-2016, 11:35 PM
Game 1: Thursday at 1:10pm
Clay Buchholz vs Matt Boyd

Game 2: Friday at 7:10pm
Rick Porcello vs Michael Fulmer

Game 3: Saturday at 7:10pm
Drew Pomeranz vs Daniel Norris

Game 4: Sunday at 1:10pm
TBD vs TBD

Green_Monster
08-17-2016, 11:37 PM
Should we put the brooms away yet Pittz?

NateWall
08-18-2016, 06:31 AM
"UPDATE: we still haven't left Baltimore.... And the game tomorrow is at 1:10? Awesome 👍🏻 #MLB #RedSox"
@Travis_Shaw21

This was at 1:39am.... What a joke

Pittz
08-18-2016, 08:41 AM
Should we put the brooms away yet Pittz?

Almost definitely. Not too optimistic about today's game especially.

But, here's to hoping we keep it going.

Lil Rhody
08-18-2016, 08:48 AM
When will this team start letting us down again. I love the movement we have this year but man we need some good pitching. It's crazy to think that as bad as our top guys have been we still have a good chance at the playoffs

Pats Canadiens
08-18-2016, 10:26 AM
If this team had a mediocre performance statistically from the bullpen we'd probably have a 3-5 game division lead right now.

Losing Carson Smith from day 1 didn't help matters.

BoSox47
08-18-2016, 10:30 AM
"UPDATE: we still haven't left Baltimore.... And the game tomorrow is at 1:10? Awesome 👍🏻 #MLB #RedSox"
@Travis_Shaw21

This was at 1:39am.... What a joke

Red Sox do it to themselves every opening day home game when they play on the road to open the season. First home game is ussually an afternoon game. Guys are getting paid millions and got into detroit at 3am. Gives them 10 hours to sleep and get to the ball park for game time. They can handle it.

BoSox47
08-18-2016, 10:31 AM
When will this team start letting us down again. I love the movement we have this year but man we need some good pitching. It's crazy to think that as bad as our top guys have been we still have a good chance at the playoffs

For the past 1.5 months we have had a top 5 startin rotation in the league. The bats and bullpen sucked for most of July.

Green_Monster
08-18-2016, 11:50 AM
Almost definitely. Not too optimistic about today's game especially.

But, here's to hoping we keep it going.

Agreed. Lineup is pretty weak today as well.

3B Hill
SS Bogaerts
RF Betts
1B Ramirez
CF Bradley Jr
DH Leon
C Holaday
2B Marrero
LF Benintendi

Pittz
08-18-2016, 11:54 AM
Agreed. Lineup is pretty weak today as well.

3B Hill
SS Bogaerts
RF Betts
1B Ramirez
CF Bradley Jr
DH Leon
C Holaday
2B Marrero
LF Benintendi

Yuck.

AI
08-18-2016, 12:38 PM
Oh hai pittz

Pittz
08-18-2016, 01:08 PM
Oh hai, AI. I'm trying to be active again. Want to join me?

Pittz
08-18-2016, 01:25 PM
Buchholz about to throw a gem!

AI
08-18-2016, 01:37 PM
Oh hai, AI. I'm trying to be active again. Want to join me?

In the shower? Like you even have to ask bae.

Pittz
08-18-2016, 01:42 PM
In the shower? Like you even have to ask bae.

When am I coming to visit you in Puerto Rico?

Pittz
08-18-2016, 02:00 PM
No more Farrell, our chances just improved.

Soxfan85
08-18-2016, 02:03 PM
No more Farrell, our chances just improved.

Butterfield ejected not Farrell

Pittz
08-18-2016, 02:12 PM
Butterfield ejected not Farrell

Nooo Gameday lied to me :( Thanks for the correction.

bosox1899
08-18-2016, 02:13 PM
So I just heard while listening to the game, the red sox are among the worse with the bases loaded batting at .220. Someone posted a while back that they are actually pretty solid with bases loaded IIRC. Well looks like I was right, they choke in these situations.

Pittz
08-18-2016, 02:16 PM
So I just heard while listening to the game, the red sox are among the worse with the bases loaded batting at .220. Someone posted a while back that they are actually pretty solid with bases loaded IIRC. Well looks like I was right, they choke in these situations.

Pretty sure RST responded to you at the time with, you know, facts and stats.

It's nice that your claim can now be backed up, that doesn't mean you were right at the time. Very interesting case of revisionist history.

AI
08-18-2016, 02:28 PM
When am I coming to visit you in Puerto Rico?

Come on down, I'll show you around sexy.

bosox1899
08-18-2016, 02:37 PM
Pretty sure RST responded to you at the time with, you know, facts and stats.

It's nice that your claim can now be backed up, that doesn't mean you were right at the time. Very interesting case of revisionist history.

The red sox have not been great with the bases loaded all season long. Of course, they may have gotten a hit here and there but how many times have they scored no runs with less than 2 outs and the bases loaded this season? If it's more than once than that just blows and I can think of at least 2 occasions when that happened.

BoSox47
08-18-2016, 02:49 PM
After that home run Sandy Leon is 65th in WAR out of all players this year.

bosox1899
08-18-2016, 03:18 PM
buchholtz is pitching pretty awesome today at least

Pittz
08-18-2016, 03:39 PM
Would have liked to have seen Buchholz go another inning on a short leash, but I suppose he's not fully stretched out.

RedSoxtober
08-18-2016, 03:55 PM
Even Orioles manager Buck Showalter found the Red Sox’ scheduled 1 p.m. start against the Tigers, following a night game in Baltimore, to be baffling. Showalter said that the Orioles signed off on calling Wednesday’s game after six innings in part out of recognition of what the Red Sox faced with their travel.

“Trying to be fair, ethically fair, to a team that for some reason has a game scheduled for 1 o’clock tomorrow in Detroit,” Showalter told reporters in postgame remarks. “What is the reason they’re playing at 1 o’clock tomorrow? Just another question mark of the schedule. I’m sure there’s a real good reason somewhere.”

A reporter informed Showalter that the Lions are playing an exhibition game on Thursday night.

“At the same stadium?” Showalter asked.

Next door, he was told. Showalter shook his head.

“So, one day they’ll figure out that’s where a lot of the injuries seem to be happening, with some of the schedule being a contributor to them, and all the money they lose on the disabled list,” said the O’s manager.Speier

Green_Monster
08-18-2016, 04:01 PM
:sigh:

RedSoxtober
08-18-2016, 04:02 PM
Red Sox do it to themselves every opening day home game when they play on the road to open the season. First home game is ussually an afternoon game. Guys are getting paid millions and got into detroit at 3am. Gives them 10 hours to sleep and get to the ball park for game time. They can handle it.

Rather than guess, I decided to check. Looks false.
2016: Day off before scheduled home opener
2015: Day game (Sunday) before scheduled home opener
2014: Night game (7pm, BAL) before 2pm home opener
2013: Day game before home opener
2012: Day off before home opener

RedSoxtober
08-18-2016, 04:03 PM
So that was awesome. Love me some effective Taz in the BP #JPphoneHome

bosox1899
08-18-2016, 04:04 PM
god they really need to get rid of tazawa

Soxfan85
08-18-2016, 04:05 PM
I don't get why JF is using Taz. He's broke. I hope Paps comes here cannot stand to see Taz pitch anymore

Pats Canadiens
08-18-2016, 04:08 PM
What a bloody disgrace. How do you even consider Tazawa in any relevant situations these days when he can't even get a high school girl out.

This loss is %110 on John Farrell. perfect timing too, middle of a pennant race.

bosox1899
08-18-2016, 04:11 PM
i can't take watching this bullpen anymore. it's got to be one of the worse bullpens in the mlb. we certainly could use carson smith right about now, shoot even paps would be nice right now

Green_Monster
08-18-2016, 04:12 PM
So, Papelbon anyone? It's worth a try. We can't win in the playoffs with a bullpen like this (if we get there).

Tazawa is done. We'll need Barnes to step up and Koji to pitch solid when he gets back.

Kimbrel
Papelbon
Ziegler
Koji
Barnes
Ross
Buchholz/Tazawa/Abad/etc.

It will never be pretty but we need to do something.

bosox1899
08-18-2016, 04:19 PM
So, Papelbon anyone? It's worth a try. We can't win in the playoffs with a bullpen like this (if we get there).

Tazawa is done. We'll need Barnes to step up and Koji to pitch solid when he gets back.

Kimbrel
Papelbon
Ziegler
Koji
Barnes
Ross
Buchholz/Tazawa/Abad/etc.

It will never be pretty but we need to do something.

he just needs to be off the team.

i ****ing hate all these guys. just walked the go ahead run in. i'm done watching this team, i'll set my focus on the patriots and celtics now.

Pats Canadiens
08-18-2016, 04:22 PM
Keep going to the well Farrell, the one that's backed up with sewer water.

What an albatross of a loss. Piss poor decisions that are blatantly obvious.

Station 13
08-18-2016, 07:09 PM
Fire Farrell.

Ziegler has now walked in the go ahead run a couple of times. Not what you want out your chief set up guy.

sawxfan
08-18-2016, 09:36 PM
Fire Farrell.

Ziegler has now walked in the go ahead run a couple of times. Not what you want out your chief set up guy.

I kind of agree. Farrell didn't pick up Ziegler, Dombrowski did. It is Farrell's job to use Ziegler when and where he can, but he absolutely has to use him. They have like zero other options right now.

sawxfan
08-18-2016, 09:39 PM
Can't really blame Farrell for the ****** bullpen he has to choose from. Such a bummer that they all scare the hell out of us.

soxer04
08-19-2016, 09:04 AM
So, Papelbon anyone? It's worth a try. We can't win in the playoffs with a bullpen like this (if we get there).

Tazawa is done. We'll need Barnes to step up and Koji to pitch solid when he gets back.

Kimbrel
Papelbon
Ziegler
Koji
Barnes
Ross
Buchholz/Tazawa/Abad/etc.

It will never be pretty but we need to do something.

IF IF IF IF we make the playoffs the ERod goes to the bullpen more than likely if everyone is heathly. Then we have a pretty good pen. Big problem is having a legit 8th inning guy. ERod might not be it but can be it.

Please please please no Papelbon.

Green_Monster
08-19-2016, 10:02 AM
IF IF IF IF we make the playoffs the ERod goes to the bullpen more than likely if everyone is heathly. Then we have a pretty good pen. Big problem is having a legit 8th inning guy. ERod might not be it but can be it.

Please please please no Papelbon.

That doesn't give us a pretty good pen.

BoSox47
08-19-2016, 10:13 AM
For everyone complaining about Taz over Ziegler. Here is Zieglers last 8 games:

7 2/3 IP, 12 Hits, 4 walks(2 walks with bases loaded), 1 HBP, .932 OPS by opposing batters.

Green_Monster
08-19-2016, 10:29 AM
Isn't most of that after Tazawa created a mess?

It's much easier to start a clean inning than it is to come in with the bases loaded. I'm not giving him a pass but Tazawa has been considerably worse when you look at the context.

celticsman2009
08-19-2016, 11:02 AM
Dombrowski can't put together a BP. We saw it in Detroit when they pissed down their pants in the playoffs against us.

Pats Canadiens
08-19-2016, 11:12 AM
Dombrowski can't put together a BP. We saw it in Detroit when they pissed down their pants in the playoffs against us.

This.

Sadly.

And it will cost us a World Series because everything else seems to be running on all cylinders.

Soxfan85
08-19-2016, 02:30 PM
From Fangraphs 2013 Season


Tigers Ranked 1st in SP 3.44 ERA

Sox Ranked 13th in SP 3.84 ERA
-------------------------------
Tigers Ranked 17th in RP 4.01 ERA

Sox Ranked 13th in RP 3.70 ERA
--------------------------------

RedSoxtober
08-19-2016, 03:00 PM
For everyone complaining about Taz over Ziegler. Here is Zieglers last 8 games:

7 2/3 IP, 12 Hits, 4 walks(2 walks with bases loaded), 1 HBP, .932 OPS by opposing batters.


Isn't most of that after Tazawa created a mess?

No. Of his 15 appearances for the Sox he has only inherited runners in the last three, and yesterday was the first time that he inherited any from Taz (Barnes and Abad before that).

NateWall
08-19-2016, 03:36 PM
Really hoping we kick the **** out of the Tigers tonight. Idek why I hate them, but I do lol

soxer04
08-19-2016, 10:16 PM
That doesn't give us a pretty good pen.

You're right it potentially gives us a very good bullpen. I understated my comment a bit.

Green_Monster
08-19-2016, 10:55 PM
No. Of his 15 appearances for the Sox he has only inherited runners in the last three, and yesterday was the first time that he inherited any from Taz (Barnes and Abad before that).

I was just referring to recently. I remember him coming into bad situations a couple times. Thought they were both Tazawa.

Green_Monster
08-19-2016, 10:59 PM
You're right it potentially gives us a very good bullpen. I understated my comment a bit.

We must be watching different teams. A lot of "if's" would have to go our way.

Can Koji come back and be very good?
Can Barnes step up?
Will Tazawa turn it around?
Will Abad stop being bad?

I'd be happy if two of those went our way.

papipapsmanny
08-20-2016, 12:40 PM
I still think Kelly throwing 100 needs to be given an actual chance out of the bullpen

soxer04
08-20-2016, 05:35 PM
We must be watching different teams. A lot of "if's" would have to go our way.

Can Koji come back and be very good?
Can Barnes step up?
Will Tazawa turn it around?
Will Abad stop being bad?

I'd be happy if two of those went our way.

I don't agree with how you look at this.

1-- Kimbrel is a good 9, is he not?

2-- IF we made the playoffs which I 1st replied to when the other poster spoke of what happened when we got into the playoffs, you don't think ERod could be a good 8?

3-- You don't think Barnes is a good 7? So what does he need to step up to? A 7 isn't a closer, right?

4-- You don't think Zeigler is a good situational 7/8?

5-- Ross is okay as a 6th inning or situational lefty isn't he?

6-- Buchholz has shown he has gotten his act together because of his fixing his change in delivery, right?

This isn't considered a good bullpen IF we made the playoffs? Why bring up Abad? He shouldn't be used, right? Why are you bringing up Koji and Taz? Taz shouldn't be used at all and we wouldn't need to use him if we have the 6 above, right? Aren't the pitchers I indicated above all better than Taz too? And is Koji even coming back?

If we use Taz- and we blow the game, isn't it more because the manager is an idiot rather than our bullpen stinks? I asked on another thread before -- who on this site would have brought in Taz vs the Tigers or would bring in Taz in a close game situation? But our manager does it often, right? Why should the others be blamed because our manager is an idiot? Zeigler should have ben brought in in the 8th with no one on base, right?

If you wouldn't use Taz, then why bring it up here with our discussions? And would you even want Koji, Taz or Abad on the bullpen playoffs roster over the guys I mentioned above? If so which would you replace and why? Wouldn't you use ERod out of the bullpen if we made the playoffs? Won't he probably be good?

By using Taz and Abad as examples for the playoffs, aren't you indicting the entire bullpen because of our 7th and 8th best relievers? With our starting pitching how much of an impact will the 7th and 8th best relievers be?

As for Koji-- who would you rather see in the game Koji or Kimbrel?
Koji or ERod?
Koji or Barnes?
I'd rather see Zeigler pitch to righties than Koji.

Pats Canadiens
08-20-2016, 06:06 PM
I still think Kelly throwing 100 needs to be given an actual chance out of the bullpen

Meh, he has no control of his fastball. Opponents just leave the bat on their shoulders until he rarely forces them to swing, then his fastball finds too many bat barrels. His secondary pitches are nothing to brag about, forcing him to live and die with that fastball, which like I said, lacks any control. He is what he is, nothing more than depth.

Green_Monster
08-20-2016, 07:36 PM
I don't agree with how you look at this.

1-- Kimbrel is a good 9, is he not?

2-- IF we made the playoffs which I 1st replied to when the other poster spoke of what happened when we got into the playoffs, you don't think ERod could be a good 8?

3-- You don't think Barnes is a good 7? So what does he need to step up to? A 7 isn't a closer, right?

4-- You don't think Zeigler is a good situational 7/8?

5-- Ross is okay as a 6th inning or situational lefty isn't he?

6-- Buchholz has shown he has gotten his act together because of his fixing his change in delivery, right?

This isn't considered a good bullpen IF we made the playoffs? Why bring up Abad? He shouldn't be used, right? Why are you bringing up Koji and Taz? Taz shouldn't be used at all and we wouldn't need to use him if we have the 6 above, right? Aren't the pitchers I indicated above all better than Taz too? And is Koji even coming back?

If we use Taz- and we blow the game, isn't it more because the manager is an idiot rather than our bullpen stinks? I asked on another thread before -- who on this site would have brought in Taz vs the Tigers or would bring in Taz in a close game situation? But our manager does it often, right? Why should the others be blamed because our manager is an idiot? Zeigler should have ben brought in in the 8th with no one on base, right?

If you wouldn't use Taz, then why bring it up here with our discussions? And would you even want Koji, Taz or Abad on the bullpen playoffs roster over the guys I mentioned above? If so which would you replace and why? Wouldn't you use ERod out of the bullpen if we made the playoffs? Won't he probably be good?

By using Taz and Abad as examples for the playoffs, aren't you indicting the entire bullpen because of our 7th and 8th best relievers? With our starting pitching how much of an impact will the 7th and 8th best relievers be?

As for Koji-- who would you rather see in the game Koji or Kimbrel?
Koji or ERod?
Koji or Barnes?
I'd rather see Zeigler pitch to righties than Koji.

I'll give a better response later, but all of those "don't you think they're good in this position" statements have added up to a terrible bullpen in the second half.

I'd say I'm one of the more optimistic guys around here. I can confidently say that this bullpen is very bad right now. Maybe it can get better, but it's bad currently.

Pats Canadiens
08-20-2016, 07:57 PM
I'll give a better response later, but all of those "don't you think they're good in this position" statements have added up to a terrible bullpen in the second half.

I'd say I'm one of the more optimistic guys around here. I can confidently say that this bullpen is very bad right now. Maybe it can get better, but it's bad currently.

"Bad" is a compliment, you're giving them too much credit.

Atrocious is more like it. They need a couple new faces. Sign Paps and trade for Jim Johnson of Atlanta. Outright Tazawa and put Ziegler / Abad back in their situational roles, instead of relying on them to face multiple batters at a time.

That would go a long way to improving things.

Green_Monster
08-20-2016, 09:51 PM
I don't agree with how you look at this.

1-- Kimbrel is a good 9, is he not?

2-- IF we made the playoffs which I 1st replied to when the other poster spoke of what happened when we got into the playoffs, you don't think ERod could be a good 8?

3-- You don't think Barnes is a good 7? So what does he need to step up to? A 7 isn't a closer, right?

4-- You don't think Zeigler is a good situational 7/8?

5-- Ross is okay as a 6th inning or situational lefty isn't he?

6-- Buchholz has shown he has gotten his act together because of his fixing his change in delivery, right?

This isn't considered a good bullpen IF we made the playoffs? Why bring up Abad? He shouldn't be used, right? Why are you bringing up Koji and Taz? Taz shouldn't be used at all and we wouldn't need to use him if we have the 6 above, right? Aren't the pitchers I indicated above all better than Taz too? And is Koji even coming back?

If we use Taz- and we blow the game, isn't it more because the manager is an idiot rather than our bullpen stinks? I asked on another thread before -- who on this site would have brought in Taz vs the Tigers or would bring in Taz in a close game situation? But our manager does it often, right? Why should the others be blamed because our manager is an idiot? Zeigler should have ben brought in in the 8th with no one on base, right?

If you wouldn't use Taz, then why bring it up here with our discussions? And would you even want Koji, Taz or Abad on the bullpen playoffs roster over the guys I mentioned above? If so which would you replace and why? Wouldn't you use ERod out of the bullpen if we made the playoffs? Won't he probably be good?

By using Taz and Abad as examples for the playoffs, aren't you indicting the entire bullpen because of our 7th and 8th best relievers? With our starting pitching how much of an impact will the 7th and 8th best relievers be?

As for Koji-- who would you rather see in the game Koji or Kimbrel?
Koji or ERod?
Koji or Barnes?
I'd rather see Zeigler pitch to righties than Koji.

I was planning a long response but I think my argument is simple. This bullpen has been bad. The end.

soxer04
08-21-2016, 01:04 AM
I'll give a better response later, but all of those "don't you think they're good in this position" statements have added up to a terrible bullpen in the second half.

I'd say I'm one of the more optimistic guys around here. I can confidently say that this bullpen is very bad right now. Maybe it can get better, but it's bad currently.

1-- You have to remember I'm speaking of the playoffs and with the addition of ERod to the bullpen.

2-- If you throw out Taz (never use him in close games) and add Buchholz (once Wright comes back) it might not be that bad if . . .

3--- IF IF IF IF Farrell uses Ziegler right. Zeigler is better than Barnes. Zeigler is better than Barnes. Zeigler is better than Barnes. The dumb manager doesn't realize this.

4-- It wouldn't be that bad (actually pretty good) if the idiotic manager would have used Hembree in the 6th, Barnes in the 7th, Zeigler in the 8th then Kimbrel in the 9th. OFC he keeps a minor leaguer in in the 7th inning after he got out of the 6th yet wouldn't use Ross two games ago other than one inning or waste Zeigler for just two-thrids of an inning in tonigths game instead of a full inning.

5-- The bullpen will continue to underperform if the manager remains a complete idiot. As soon as Hembree came in tonight I thought -- okay have Hembree pitch the 6th, then in the 7th we have Barnes then the 8th we have Zeigler. How can anyone explain trying to stretch Hembree in a tight game tonight while not trying to stretch Ross two games ago? Or even ATTEMPTING to stretch Hembree -- when you had much better alternatives.

This manager continues to make mind-boggling dumb moves.

soxer04
08-21-2016, 01:17 AM
I was planning a long response but I think my argument is simple. This bullpen has been bad. The end.

Way to go and completely and deceptively misrepresent the post.

Green_Monster
08-21-2016, 07:34 AM
1-- You have to remember I'm speaking of the playoffs and with the addition of ERod to the bullpen.

2-- If you throw out Taz (never use him in close games) and add Buchholz (once Wright comes back) it might not be that bad if . . .

3--- IF IF IF IF Farrell uses Ziegler right. Zeigler is better than Barnes. Zeigler is better than Barnes. Zeigler is better than Barnes. The dumb manager doesn't realize this.

4-- It wouldn't be that bad (actually pretty good) if the idiotic manager would have used Hembree in the 6th, Barnes in the 7th, Zeigler in the 8th then Kimbrel in the 9th. OFC he keeps a minor leaguer in in the 7th inning after he got out of the 6th yet wouldn't use Ross two games ago other than one inning or waste Zeigler for just two-thrids of an inning in tonigths game instead of a full inning.

5-- The bullpen will continue to underperform if the manager remains a complete idiot. As soon as Hembree came in tonight I thought -- okay have Hembree pitch the 6th, then in the 7th we have Barnes then the 8th we have Zeigler. How can anyone explain trying to stretch Hembree in a tight game tonight while not trying to stretch Ross two games ago? Or even ATTEMPTING to stretch Hembree -- when you had much better alternatives.

This manager continues to make mind-boggling dumb moves.

You used a lot of if's. When you do that, anything is possible. I already covered that so I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

Green_Monster
08-21-2016, 07:37 AM
Way to go and completely and deceptively misrepresent the post.

No, not really. You basically said "but don't you think these players are good!" several times when as a whole they've been bad.

You're basing everything off of potential and what they may have the ability to do. I'm pointing out what they've done for the past two months.

Pats Canadiens
08-21-2016, 10:14 AM
Where are all the puppets that used to hate on Pomeranz? It's been pretty quiet on that front the last couple weeks...

AI
08-21-2016, 11:23 AM
Where are all the puppets that used to hate on Pomeranz? It's been pretty quiet on that front the last couple weeks...

Pretty sure nobody hated on Pomeranz, they hated the cost it took to acquire him.

soxer04
08-21-2016, 12:40 PM
No, not really. You basically said "but don't you think these players are good!" several times when as a whole they've been bad.

You're basing everything off of potential and what they may have the ability to do. I'm pointing out what they've done for the past two months.

Has ERod been good or bad in the bullpen? Is that what you are suggesting I said?

Green_Monster
08-21-2016, 12:45 PM
Where are all the puppets that used to hate on Pomeranz? It's been pretty quiet on that front the last couple weeks...

Take out the first game and he has a 3.31 ERA with the Red Sox, and 2.25 ERA over the last four. He's been good.

The forum is very reactionary. A lot of people wait for the bad to post but stay away when the good comes.

Green_Monster
08-21-2016, 12:48 PM
Has ERod been good or bad in the bullpen? Is that what you are suggesting I said?

He hasn't pitched from the bullpen in the majors.

That's basically what you said. You're trying to say the bullpen will be good because you think those guys will be good in their roles. The worst bullpen in the league over the second half can't all be blamed on Farrell, sorry. I wish he was gone too but I won't blame it all on him.

Green_Monster
08-21-2016, 12:53 PM
Rodriguez before July (6 starts): 8.59 ERA
Rodriguez from July on (7 starts): 2.52 ERA

Such a big difference.

papipapsmanny
08-21-2016, 01:13 PM
Pretty sure nobody hated on Pomeranz, they hated the cost it took to acquire him.

Which is silly. We gave up an 18 year old one prospect. Super high potential but by no means a sure thing. We gave that up for at least 2.5 years of a guy who has been pitching like a good 2 all year.

soxer04
08-21-2016, 01:15 PM
He hasn't pitched from the bullpen in the majors.

That's basically what you said. You're trying to say the bullpen will be good because you think those guys will be good in their roles. The worst bullpen in the league over the second half can't all be blamed on Farrell, sorry. I wish he was gone too but I won't blame it all on him.

He hasn't pitched in the bullpen - you're right-- but suppose a person feels he can make the adjustment? It's not like a starter has never made the adjustment in the postseason, right? So how relevant is a reply that states they stink now - discounting the possibility that ERod can be a solid 8th inning guy? While the same person suggesting ERod potential impact also indicates that the 2 worst bullpen pitchers and any of the minor leaguers (Hembree included) wouldn't pitch in the playoffs?
And despite the mention of this, the people that are discounting ERod continue to cite how bad the bullpen is because they WANT to include the worst pitchers into the playoff discussion. DESPITE THEM KNOWING VERY WELL THEY SHOULDN"T SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY IN THE PLAYOFFS. There should be no reason to include Taz, ABad or any other minor league type guy such as Hembree/Kelly into this discussion.

Secondly, suppose that same person would stop using Taz and Ebad in the playoffs. You don't think that would help?

Third- as I've asked before and usually the ones that argue with me never answer the question-- the game we lost to the Tigers in which Farrell brought in Taz, would you have done it over Zeigler? If so why?

Fourth, what's the justification of using a minor leaguer (Hembree) in last night's game for the 2nd inning while a) Not using Ross the game they lost vs the Tigers for the 2nd inning and b.) for not using Barnes or Zeigler to start the 7th.

Fifth, when you have an experienced pitcher like Zeigler speak out and say to paraphrase he's unsure of his role -- and you see all the other blunders form Farrell-- yes the bullpen can be partially blamed on him. Unless anyone suggests that coaching has little to do with bullpen effectiveness?

AI
08-21-2016, 02:16 PM
Which is silly. We gave up an 18 year old one prospect. Super high potential but by no means a sure thing. We gave that up for at least 2.5 years of a guy who has been pitching like a good 2 all year.

Still, in an era of baseball where prospect value's are at their highest, we gave up a lot for a guy who had pitched like an all-star for half a season and was creeping up on the highest innings total of his career. Espinoza might be 18 years old and far from the majors, but we had never had an arm like him in our system.

Pats Canadiens
08-21-2016, 02:23 PM
Another failed Red Sox pitching prospect proving his non worth. Time to convert Owens from a consistent failed MLB starter into a LH relief pitcher and see if we can get any value there.

BoSox47
08-21-2016, 03:10 PM
Which is silly. We gave up an 18 year old one prospect. Super high potential but by no means a sure thing. We gave that up for at least 2.5 years of a guy who has been pitching like a good 2 all year.

He pitched like a good 2 in the National League and since coming to the Red Sox he has a 4.23 ERA, in 7 starts he has 38.1 inning pitched, or 5.5 inning per game. He has pitched better recently but still has a 3.52 BB/9 with the red sox. These are not good number 2 pitcher type numbers. While his progression has been better recently we certainly need to see much more before he is called a good number 2 pitcher. Less walks, more strikes, going longer into games, less home runs (1.88/9 innings).

His last 4 or 5 stats have been good though, especially compared to the implosion he had on the west coast. Pitched well in a rain shortened game in Detroit and in Cleveland though. Two pretty good teams.

BoSox47
08-21-2016, 03:20 PM
I would rather Bobby Valentine than John Farrell.

Pats Canadiens
08-21-2016, 03:33 PM
Hopefully this is Tazawa's last game in a Red Sox uniform.

Beyond pathetic.

papipapsmanny
08-21-2016, 03:49 PM
Still, in an era of baseball where prospect value's are at their highest, we gave up a lot for a guy who had pitched like an all-star for half a season and was creeping up on the highest innings total of his career. Espinoza might be 18 years old and far from the majors, but we had never had an arm like him in our system.

I pay that price 110% of the time. Rather that than package multiple prospects, which increases the probability that you give up someone who turns into something.

We got the same arm as him if not better in Kopech in the system right now. Espinoza has potential but lets not act like he has done anything of real substance to say he is this can't miss prospect. He hasn't pitched an inning in High A ball, and although young for the league in low A, none of his numbers say anything special about his performance this year.

Where as Kopech is 20 years old in A+ ball and absolutely tearing through that league. He will start next season in AA he imo is more valuable then Espinoza.

Fla.SticKy
08-21-2016, 06:27 PM
Not that it would've mattered, but WTF do they even pitch Tazawa? Seems like every time the guy gets his number called he gives up 2-3-4-5 runs, there's no way Pap could be this bad. I'd rather let Tazawa go and call up the batboy from Pawtucket...... This dude is terrible.

RedSoxtober
08-22-2016, 10:06 AM
3--- IF IF IF IF Farrell uses Ziegler right. Zeigler is better than Barnes. Zeigler is better than Barnes. Zeigler is better than Barnes.
I imagined you crossing your fingers and clicking the heels of your ruby red slippers when you said this.


He hasn't pitched in the bullpen - you're right-- but suppose a person feels he can make the adjustment? It's not like a starter has never made the adjustment in the postseason, right? So how relevant is a reply that states they stink now - discounting the possibility that ERod can be a solid 8th inning guy? While the same person suggesting ERod potential impact also indicates that the 2 worst bullpen pitchers and any of the minor leaguers (Hembree included) wouldn't pitch in the playoffs?
I don't get why you keep asking the same questions over and over when the answer has already been VERY simply stated: they are bad right now and he hopes they improve. Why is that so hard to agree with or accept?

The bold part is the biggest frustration I have in your debates. They tend to be based primarily on how you feel but without much appeal to anything other than your gut. I mean, if you were to say something like "EdRo has great splits in his first two innings pitched so I think that he could be an effective BP arm" then I would be much more willing to jump on board with you. (He does, by the way, I checked).

I think the discussion about moving a SP to the BP resulting in an improved BP is a red herring, however. The move primarily provides an extra long man whose primary role tends to be emergency duty in the event of a SP collapse -- think Pomeranz' falling apart in his Sox debut or Price getting lit up by the Rangers for example. Yes, the quality of the BP overall is improved but the typical late-game options generally are not.


Still, in an era of baseball where prospect value's are at their highest, we gave up a lot for a guy who had pitched like an all-star for half a season and was creeping up on the highest innings total of his career. Espinoza might be 18 years old and far from the majors, but we had never had an arm like him in our system.
Opportunity cost is an argument that is wasted here.


We got the same arm as him if not better in Kopech in the system right now. Espinoza has potential but lets not act like he has done anything of real substance to say he is this can't miss prospect. He hasn't pitched an inning in High A ball, and although young for the league in low A, none of his numbers say anything special about his performance this year.

The quoted part is just not true. I realize that this is primarily an argument of semantics but they are VERY different pitchers. They are as different as a couple of their comps -- Pedro and Strasburg. One of the things that makes Espinoza a great SP prospect is what Kopech lacks the most -- composure.

That said, I do not disagree that we have another TOTR potential prospect in Kopech. Our specific tastes may vary on which one we prefer but that's not much of a debate. That said, I'd still rather have three of those guys than two.

RedSoxtober
08-22-2016, 04:00 PM
Holt tells Britton he continues to experience dizziness related to his concussion, a symptom that has been exacerbated by the Red Sox’ challenging travel schedule and the disruption it has presented to his sleep patterns.Speier

Maybe there's a reason that Holt didn't man 2B over Marrero after all. Note every managerial decision with which we disagree is unfounded.

MG956
08-22-2016, 06:27 PM
Pretty sure nobody hated on Pomeranz, they hated the cost it took to acquire him.

I was going to respond with this EXACT quote but didn't have time.

Ya, I love how on one hand we can't count on minor leaguers so it is ok to give them up, but we are so sure the ones we kept are better. You just do not give up Espinoza, he should have been untouchable.

papipapsmanny
08-22-2016, 07:20 PM
I imagined you crossing your fingers and clicking the heels of your ruby red slippers when you said this.


I don't get why you keep asking the same questions over and over when the answer has already been VERY simply stated: they are bad right now and he hopes they improve. Why is that so hard to agree with or accept?

The bold part is the biggest frustration I have in your debates. They tend to be based primarily on how you feel but without much appeal to anything other than your gut. I mean, if you were to say something like "EdRo has great splits in his first two innings pitched so I think that he could be an effective BP arm" then I would be much more willing to jump on board with you. (He does, by the way, I checked).

I think the discussion about moving a SP to the BP resulting in an improved BP is a red herring, however. The move primarily provides an extra long man whose primary role tends to be emergency duty in the event of a SP collapse -- think Pomeranz' falling apart in his Sox debut or Price getting lit up by the Rangers for example. Yes, the quality of the BP overall is improved but the typical late-game options generally are not.


Opportunity cost is an argument that is wasted here.



The quoted part is just not true. I realize that this is primarily an argument of semantics but they are VERY different pitchers. They are as different as a couple of their comps -- Pedro and Strasburg. One of the things that makes Espinoza a great SP prospect is what Kopech lacks the most -- composure.

That said, I do not disagree that we have another TOTR potential prospect in Kopech. Our specific tastes may vary on which one we prefer but that's not much of a debate. That said, I'd still rather have three of those guys than two.

Ok not the same, but same in terms of potential. I'd rather have 3 than 2, but I am not mad about Pomeranz, and I am not mad that all we traded was 1 prospect (in Low A) as opposed to a package of prospects. If we look at it objectively and see the price for even relievers that were traded, who are worth less than an SP, we did well here.

Our risk was would Pomeranz break down and would he still pitch like a 2 in the AL. Still to be determined, as the results to really point to anything definitively. The padres risk was that they received a guy who turns into nothing. We got a good SP under control and protected our other prospects. I am okay with that