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Shammyguy3
08-16-2016, 11:23 PM
Here we go, kicking off #18... Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. James Harden
10. Draymond Green
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Blake Griffin
13. Jimmy Butler
14. Klay Thompson
15. Damian Lillard
16. LaMarcus Aldridge
17. Kyrie Irving
18. Carmelo Anthony
19. ???

JordansBulls
08-16-2016, 11:27 PM
He should have been 14 spots higher, but Dwyane Wade

Shammyguy3
08-16-2016, 11:29 PM
He should have been 14 spots higher, but Dwyane Wade

can you be serious for once?

Sadds The Gr8
08-17-2016, 12:10 AM
Lowry not in the top 20 would be ridiculous

murphturph
08-17-2016, 12:20 AM
Lowry not in the top 20 would be ridiculous

K. Towns + D. Jordan.

I take back D. Jordan. Right now Lowry is better.

HandsOnTheWheel
08-17-2016, 01:01 AM
I went Wade but Milsap deserves serious consideration

More-Than-Most
08-17-2016, 01:17 AM
Towns/Lowry/Howard/Wall would all be fine for me here... Arguments for others... Wade will likely win though because of heat and bulls fans

jimm120
08-17-2016, 07:53 AM
While I'll agree that Lowry has been more important for toronto's growth, I think derozan is the better player

jimm120
08-17-2016, 07:56 AM
Towns/Lowry/Howard/Wall would all be fine for me here... Arguments for others... Wade will likely win though because of heat and bulls fans

I don't get the wade votes. Not last round and not this round. Better than melo? 19-5-5 better than 22-8-4? Nah.

Same here.

I would have lowery nor wade win here. Wall seems like a better candidate

Tony_Starks
08-17-2016, 09:18 AM
Either Wall or Wade.

Shouldn't DJ or Drummond be getting more love at this point? I get the free throw liability part but what about their defensive impact?

Chronz
08-17-2016, 10:19 AM
While I'll agree that Lowry has been more important for toronto's growth, I think derozan is the better player

Yuck. Lowry is definitely FAR better.

Chronz
08-17-2016, 10:20 AM
Either Wall or Wade.

Shouldn't DJ or Drummond be getting more love at this point? I get the free throw liability part but what about their defensive impact?

Yeah, I got them right after Lowry.

kdspurman
08-17-2016, 10:23 AM
Either Wall or Wade.

Shouldn't DJ or Drummond be getting more love at this point? I get the free throw liability part but what about their defensive impact?

I feel like DJ gets overrated defensively, but he'll probably go soon nevertheless. Not sure about Drummond tbh..

Sadds The Gr8
08-17-2016, 01:06 PM
While I'll agree that Lowry has been more important for toronto's growth, I think derozan is the better player

trust me, he's definitely not.

5ass
08-17-2016, 01:16 PM
I feel like DJ gets overrated defensively, but he'll probably go soon nevertheless. Not sure about Drummond tbh..

I agree and feel Drummond gets overrated defensively too.

smith&wesson
08-17-2016, 01:41 PM
While I'll agree that Lowry has been more important for toronto's growth, I think derozan is the better player

I think its the exact opposite. I think Derozan has been important to Toronto's growth being that he has played his entire career in Toronto and is very loyal to the team. But Lowry is def the better, more efficient, and smarter player.

Vee-Rex
08-17-2016, 02:19 PM
I agree and feel Drummond gets overrated defensively too.

Drummond definitely isn't a good defender. Average at best, but he can definitely improve. Hard to believe he only just turned 23 a week ago.

I'm gonna vote Wall here again. I'm not mad that Melo won the last one, and there's several players left that are pretty close so you can't really go wrong here.

Chronz
08-17-2016, 02:53 PM
I feel like DJ gets overrated defensively, but he'll probably go soon nevertheless. Not sure about Drummond tbh..

Still a 1st teamer and his defense is MUCH improved. He might be a tad overrated but hes also underrated offensively so it balances out.

mrblisterdundee
08-17-2016, 04:08 PM
While I'll agree that Lowry has been more important for toronto's growth, I think derozan is the better player

They're close, but Kyle Lowry has been Toronto's captain and best player. He shoots significantly better than DeRozan, rebounds as much, runs Toronto's offense and plays defense better than any point guard not named Chris Paul. DeRozan will be the best player in Toronto when (or if) he becomes a legitimate threat from deep.

FlashBolt
08-17-2016, 04:34 PM
They're close, but Kyle Lowry has been Toronto's captain and best player. He shoots significantly better than DeRozan, rebounds as much, runs Toronto's offense and plays defense better than any point guard not named Chris Paul. DeRozan will be the best player in Toronto when (or if) he becomes a legitimate threat from deep.

You're overrating Lowry's defense. He's good on spurts and that's it.

Dade County
08-17-2016, 04:35 PM
I like Wade, Wall or Towns at this spot.

FlashBolt
08-17-2016, 04:44 PM
Can't really go wrong with any of these guys at this point. It's pretty much up for debate on how you establish their roles on the team to determine their effectiveness. I'll take Marc Gasol right now.

SportsFanatic10
08-17-2016, 06:25 PM
I don't get the wade votes. Not last round and not this round. Better than melo? 19-5-5 better than 22-8-4? Nah.

Same here.

I would have lowery nor wade win here. Wall seems like a better candidate

He led his team to within 1 win of the conference finals and had some great clutch playoff performances on top of a slightly worse but comparable regular season to Melo. I don't see what's not to get.

dhopisthename
08-17-2016, 07:14 PM
come someone explain voting for wade other then making the 2nd round of the playoffs? Compare him to Hayward who probably won't get a vote unless this goes top 30.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=wadedw01&y2=2016&p2=haywago01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

hayward averaged more points, more rebounds, much better 3pt shooter , fewer turnovers, more win shares, higher box plus minus, and will be 9 years younger next year. About the only thing wade is better at this point is passing and blocking shots.

Shammyguy3
08-17-2016, 09:09 PM
come someone explain voting for wade other then making the 2nd round of the playoffs? Compare him to Hayward who probably won't get a vote unless this goes top 30.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=wadedw01&y2=2016&p2=haywago01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=



hayward averaged more points, more rebounds, much better 3pt shooter , fewer turnovers, more win shares, higher box plus minus, and will be 9 years younger next year. About the only thing wade is better at this point is passing and blocking shots.My thoughts as well

Dade County
08-18-2016, 11:07 AM
Please, on the next poll can Whiteside be added.

I feel that he has more upside then D Jordan & Whiteside offensive game is better. He does need to get better against centers that use back to the basket hard moves; but i feel that he didnt want to get into foul trouble.

AntiG
08-18-2016, 12:35 PM
Isiah Thomas should probably be on this list at this point.

Bruno
08-18-2016, 03:22 PM
Lowry isn't top 25.

fools gold all-star. dude has been straight average in 44 career playoff games, seems like a cool dude though.

Bruno
08-18-2016, 03:24 PM
He should have been 14 spots higher, but Dwyane Wade

top 50 maybe.

Tony_Starks
08-18-2016, 04:23 PM
If I never watched a single NBA game in its entirety, especially a playoff game, and went strictly by advanced stats and fantasy numbers I may actually be of the notion that Lowry is top 20.

But alas......

nycericanguy
08-18-2016, 05:47 PM
Please, on the next poll can Whiteside be added.

I feel that he has more upside then D Jordan & Whiteside offensive game is better. He does need to get better against centers that use back to the basket hard moves; but i feel that he didnt want to get into foul trouble.

whiteside isnt even top 30... he's an athlete not a basketball player.

Vee-Rex
08-18-2016, 06:23 PM
Lowry isn't top 25.

fools gold all-star. dude has been straight average in 44 career playoff games, seems like a cool dude though.

I disagree.

Lowry has been PUTRID in his playoff career. But that doesn't seem to matter at all to a lot of people these days.

Seizabmc
08-18-2016, 07:24 PM
I have to go with kristaps porzingis here

Dade County
08-18-2016, 08:14 PM
whiteside isnt even top 30... he's an athlete not a basketball player.

I'll take him over D Jordan.

& your statement is crazy. He has soft touch around the basket, can hit free throws (got better as the year went aling).

RB#20
08-18-2016, 10:43 PM
Wow Carmelo Anthony at 18 over so many other better players? Jimmy Butler over Klay Thompson- Thompson at 14? What the hell happened here?

nycericanguy
08-19-2016, 12:24 PM
I'll take him over D Jordan.

& your statement is crazy. He has soft touch around the basket, can hit free throws (got better as the year went aling).

maybe i havent seen enough of him but everytime i see him i see very little in terms of actual basketball skills

physically he's a beast though, but skill wise? Seems very lacking. he was pretty bad at the FT line too, i know he got hot for a 15-20 game stretch late in the year, but he went back to missing them at his usual career rate in the playoffs.

he's also one of the worst passers in the history of the NBA, his assist rate is incredibly low. I cringe if teams start doubling him this year now that Wade is gone, I cringe at how or if he's going to even be able to pass. last year he had 139 turnovers and only 29 assists... that's mind boggling when u think about it.

i'd take DJ over him, but i wouldnt put DJ here in the top 20 either.

his per game averages look sexy, i mean with his size and build he's gonna get a ton of boards, but i wouldn't trust him at all in a close playoff game.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 12:31 PM
Wow Carmelo Anthony at 18 over so many other better players? Jimmy Butler over Klay Thompson- Thompson at 14? What the hell happened here?

Jimmy Butler being the better player probably had something to do with it.

Sadds The Gr8
08-19-2016, 12:36 PM
Lowry isn't top 25.

fools gold all-star. dude has been straight average in 44 career playoff games, seems like a cool dude though.

I will admit he's trash in the playoffs, but not having a player on a 2 seed in the top 25 would be stupid. The guy was the main cog in turning the Raptors from irrelevant Sac-Kings level, to a perennial playoff team. Regular season has to count for something...

JAZZNC
08-19-2016, 01:33 PM
I feel like Hayward should be getting some love here. He averaged 20/5/4 with D-League talent at PG all year. That and being the only offensive option. I think he will put up even better numbers (more efficient especially) this year with an actual NBA PG and another year of growth from the youngsters. He is a better player than he is credited before probably due to lack of team success (playing in Utah certainly doesnt help either) but that should come this season as well. I mean I'd much rather have Hayward than Lowry or Wade or DJ or Derozan and yet he is getting no love at this point.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 01:33 PM
Has Lowry ever been healthy come playoffs? And even with his inconsistencies, the team utterly falls apart without him. Whereas a guy like Kyrie Irving can miss chunks of the RS, throw the team outta wack with his return, be horrendous defender and still be on the 1 seed despite his efforts to cost them games. And then in the playoffs, yes he was great but I still dont buy his team influence, like the Cavs need him to win but they dont exactly fall apart without him, in fact he was still a minus all playoffs by raw +/- and while I'll gladly chalk that up to matchups, I chalk the same up to Lowry and the team does horrendously without him. Even an injured Lowry gets up defensively and the team misses that when hes not out there, buckets or no buckets, there is more to the game than iso scoring.

Dade County
08-19-2016, 01:37 PM
maybe i havent seen enough of him but everytime i see him i see very little in terms of actual basketball skills

physically he's a beast though, but skill wise? Seems very lacking. he was pretty bad at the FT line too, i know he got hot for a 15-20 game stretch late in the year, but he went back to missing them at his usual career rate in the playoffs.

he's also one of the worst passers in the history of the NBA, his assist rate is incredibly low. I cringe if teams start doubling him this year now that Wade is gone, I cringe at how or if he's going to even be able to pass. last year he had 139 turnovers and only 29 assists... that's mind boggling when u think about it.

i'd take DJ over him, but i wouldnt put DJ here in the top 20 either.

his per game averages look sexy, i mean with his size and build he's gonna get a ton of boards, but i wouldn't trust him at all in a close playoff game.

Why would you take D Jordan over Whiteside? Just asking.

& yes, we all know Whiteside doesn't really pass well but he did get better as the year went along.

Also, spo isn't going to put him in a bad situation more times than not.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 01:39 PM
If I never watched a single NBA game in its entirety, especially a playoff game, and went strictly by advanced stats and fantasy numbers I may actually be of the notion that Lowry is top 20.

But alas......

If I knew nothing of advanced stats and watched every game ever played, I would put Lowry in the top-20, at least if we have guys like Kyrie already here. Funny how that works huh, its almost as if different people have different opinions. Sadly, people dont have to apologize for having objective evidence backing them, just find more of your own. Like you mention the playoffs, so how come you dont mention the fact that his stats (can we please stop calling them advanced, they are all numbers) in the playoffs dont depict top-20? You see, its not a stat based argument, its a preferential based argument. You stooping to blaming objective evidence is why nobody would care what you make of the numbers.


Lowry isn't top 25.

fools gold all-star. dude has been straight average in 44 career playoff games, seems like a cool dude though.

The guy you want in had a less impressive RS and didn't get a chance to show what he can do in the playoffs. Thats even less compelling.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 01:43 PM
Why would you take D Jordan over Whiteside? Just asking.

& yes, we all know Whiteside doesn't really pass well but he did get better as the year went along.

Also, spo isn't going to put him in a bad situation more times than not.

DJ seems smarter to me, both have mental lapses defensively when they try to rely on their athletic ability too much but offensively, DJ is less selfish and is a suprisingly decent passer. Hes not a good offensive creator so he wont get many chances but a guy like Whiteside always looks to score when hes in position. He is the NBA definition of a black hole and its pretty sad that he has more passing turnovers than actual assists.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 01:46 PM
I disagree.

Lowry has been PUTRID in his playoff career. But that doesn't seem to matter at all to a lot of people these days.

Of course you disagree, but hasn't Lowry has been about at league average statistically?
Its pretty accurate to depict him as such than suggesting hes been well beneath that, particularly when you consider how he impacts the game outside his own scoring. Something that matters more than you think. And last year the dude was clearly hurting, not sure about this past year but I remember his elbow looking awful or something.

nycericanguy
08-19-2016, 03:17 PM
Why would you take D Jordan over Whiteside? Just asking.

& yes, we all know Whiteside doesn't really pass well but he did get better as the year went along.

Also, spo isn't going to put him in a bad situation more times than not.

For one DJ's teams have always been a ton better when he's on the court vs off... Whiteside for a long while MIA was actually better with him OFF the court... maybe due to his general lack of awareness or going for blocks all the time?

DJ is also a better passer and turns it over less and has a much higher fg%

overall I just think DJ is a better, more aware player and less of a black hole. not to mention more proven.

It will be interesting to see what Whiteside does this year if teams focus on him more.

No player on this list would lose their starting job for any period of time like Hassan did. theres a reason MIA only started him 43 games. he's a very interesting player because his counting stats look amazing but they don't really correlate to his impact or how good he is.

Tony_Starks
08-19-2016, 03:30 PM
I feel like Hayward should be getting some love here. He averaged 20/5/4 with D-League talent at PG all year. That and being the only offensive option. I think he will put up even better numbers (more efficient especially) this year with an actual NBA PG and another year of growth from the youngsters. He is a better player than he is credited before probably due to lack of team success (playing in Utah certainly doesnt help either) but that should come this season as well. I mean I'd much rather have Hayward than Lowry or Wade or DJ or Derozan and yet he is getting no love at this point.

Hayward is legit, unfortunately playing for the Jazz isn't going to put you on the casual fans radar unless you're on sports center highlights. He has done a lot with that cast of characters/ injuries and has a nice all around game. The stability of Snyder should help him.

I tell you what I'd take him over the Kyle Lowrys of the world without thinking twice about it.

Vee-Rex
08-19-2016, 05:48 PM
Has Lowry ever been healthy come playoffs? And even with his inconsistencies, the team utterly falls apart without him. Whereas a guy like Kyrie Irving can miss chunks of the RS, throw the team outta wack with his return, be horrendous defender and still be on the 1 seed despite his efforts to cost them games. And then in the playoffs, yes he was great but I still dont buy his team influence, like the Cavs need him to win but they dont exactly fall apart without him, in fact he was still a minus all playoffs by raw +/- and while I'll gladly chalk that up to matchups, I chalk the same up to Lowry and the team does horrendously without him. Even an injured Lowry gets up defensively and the team misses that when hes not out there, buckets or no buckets, there is more to the game than iso scoring.

The excuses for bad playoff performances need to stop. Lowry has been "injured" the last 3 playoffs now, huh? Because that's what we've heard every year.

Kyrie was visibly injured during the 2014-15 playoffs, limping and hobbling the entire Chicago and Atlanta series, and yet his 2014-15 playoffs has statistically dwarfed any and all of Lowry's playoff performances.

Go ahead and take Lowry and watch him get clamped down in the playoffs.

Go ahead and take Lowry who is probably defending the easiest divisional point guards in the league (Ish smith, Jose Calderon, jarrett Jack, etc...) in the regular season.

Go ahead and take his defense in the playoffs and watch when terrific scoring guards (playoffs is gonna be full of them) abuse him.

You say his defense in the playoffs is relied upon when he's smothered so much that he can't score? Well Irving was outright abusing him Head-2-Head so badly that the Raps tried to rely on Cory Joseph to defend Irving (and he didn't do bad outside 2 games, but he couldn't stop him either eventually).

If Irving is simply an ISO-scorer then Lowry is simply a decent defender who can only make free throws to put up points/good stats.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 07:04 PM
The excuses for bad playoff performances need to stop. Lowry has been "injured" the last 3 playoffs now, huh? Because that's what we've heard every year.

Kyrie was visibly injured during the 2014-15 playoffs, limping and hobbling the entire Chicago and Atlanta series, and yet his 2014-15 playoffs has statistically dwarfed any and all of Lowry's playoff performances.

Go ahead and take Lowry and watch him get clamped down in the playoffs.

Go ahead and take Lowry who is probably defending the easiest divisional point guards in the league (Ish smith, Jose Calderon, jarrett Jack, etc...) in the regular season.

Go ahead and take his defense in the playoffs and watch when terrific scoring guards (playoffs is gonna be full of them) abuse him.

You say his defense in the playoffs is relied upon when he's smothered so much that he can't score? Well Irving was outright abusing him Head-2-Head so badly that the Raps tried to rely on Cory Joseph to defend Irving (and he didn't do bad outside 2 games, but he couldn't stop him either eventually).

If Irving is simply an ISO-scorer then Lowry is simply a decent defender who can only make free throws to put up points/good stats.
Ill agree that Kyle isn't capable of going full bore on both ends, hes a capable defender who has shown elite rankings when his offensive load was smaller. Its why hes been so influential for team USA when he doesn't worry about scoring. That said, you seem to think defense is based on how well you defend a man rather than how you cover for your teammates. Its almost like you dont care to watch what happens with the other 4 players who dont have the ball on either end do. Put it this way, there were times when Ben Wallace(KG too) allowed his man to put up greater production than even some of the worst defenders all year, at various points getting abused by them. But it was because they actually helped their teammates and it worked within their schemes. Put Kyle on Brons team, and you see a MUCH better defensive Kyle and a better defensive team. You also get someone who can score in outlet situations from Bron at a higher level.

You're not explaining why the excuses need to stop in a comparison such as this. Im sure Lowry would have done better these playoffs had he had someone like Bron carrying the team to a 1 seed without him too. I dont care what you visibly see, its easily possible Kyle was far more injured/depleted from his superior year long work load. I honestly dont know but I've seen CP3 have the worst playoff showing of anyone at his level but it was entirely due to the year long load + injuries. If its possible for someone as skilled and intelligent as him, its possible that Kyle is simply unlucky or has a game that suffers more due to his injury. Im fine with you ranking Kyrie higher, I just laugh at the idiotic notion that its not a debate.

Not sure what you mean in some stuff here but Lowry is a great defender who can penetrate and facilitate at a superior rate, you wont convince anyone that free throws are less valuable methods of scoring, particularly when they are actually more valuable due to getting the opposing team in foul trouble.

Chronz
08-19-2016, 07:07 PM
If Kyle was relatively healthy these playoffs, I retract my statement but I know 2 years ago he was in bad shape. The reason he got into the best shape of his career was because he was trying to hold up for an 82 game season. I almost wish he didn't get the Raps the 2 seed and instead used the RS to coast defensively and not compete as hard all year.

Shammyguy3
08-19-2016, 07:47 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?913428-20th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA

#20 is open

Vee-Rex
08-20-2016, 10:15 AM
Ill agree that Kyle isn't capable of going full bore on both ends, hes a capable defender who has shown elite rankings when his offensive load was smaller. Its why hes been so influential for team USA when he doesn't worry about scoring. That said, you seem to think defense is based on how well you defend a man rather than how you cover for your teammates. Its almost like you dont care to watch what happens with the other 4 players who dont have the ball on either end do. Put it this way, there were times when Ben Wallace(KG too) allowed his man to put up greater production than even some of the worst defenders all year, at various points getting abused by them. But it was because they actually helped their teammates and it worked within their schemes. Put Kyle on Brons team, and you see a MUCH better defensive Kyle and a better defensive team. You also get someone who can score in outlet situations from Bron at a higher level.

You're not explaining why the excuses need to stop in a comparison such as this. Im sure Lowry would have done better these playoffs had he had someone like Bron carrying the team to a 1 seed without him too. I dont care what you visibly see, its easily possible Kyle was far more injured/depleted from his superior year long work load. I honestly dont know but I've seen CP3 have the worst playoff showing of anyone at his level but it was entirely due to the year long load + injuries. If its possible for someone as skilled and intelligent as him, its possible that Kyle is simply unlucky or has a game that suffers more due to his injury. Im fine with you ranking Kyrie higher, I just laugh at the idiotic notion that its not a debate.

Not sure what you mean in some stuff here but Lowry is a great defender who can penetrate and facilitate at a superior rate, you wont convince anyone that free throws are less valuable methods of scoring, particularly when they are actually more valuable due to getting the opposing team in foul trouble.

Hey, I wasn't making a comparison at all. I just made the claim that Lowry is a PUTRID playoff performer (because he is) and you come flying in like his personal hero with a bunch of excuses and bringing up Kyrie Irving (I didn't mention Kyrie at all).

We have had TONS of NBA players over the course of history who have played 82 game seasons and who have endured the wear and tear of going all out for 82 games, have had to lead their teams offensively and defensively and be the catalyst on both ends.

I don't care if Kyrie Irving plays 10 regular season games or 50... Who cares what others do? There is absolutely no excuse on Lowry's part to continue to put up putrid playoff performances.

Nowhere did I say they aren't comparable or it isn't debatable, but Chronz, how many playoff chances do you give a guy before concluding that he simply sucks in the playoffs? Do I need to post that man's advanced statistics to give you a reminder of how bad he is in the playoffs?

Chronz
08-20-2016, 10:50 AM
Hey, I wasn't making a comparison at all. I just made the claim that Lowry is a PUTRID playoff performer (because he is) and you come flying in like his personal hero with a bunch of excuses and bringing up Kyrie Irving (I didn't mention Kyrie at all).
The putrid showing is something I raised a question on, which is, isn't he closer to league average than putrid at least statistically speaking? Like he was putrid 2 years ago in that single opening round but over his entire playoff career, his PER is at exactly league average, given his superior defense, wouldn't it be more apt to describe him as average instead of putrid? I know what you mean, you're disgusted that an alleged star drops to league average and that in itself makes it putrid but technically speaking, hes been average. Thats all I was saying.

The Kyrie stuff was for more than just you.


We have had TONS of NBA players over the course of history who have played 82 game seasons and who have endured the wear and tear of going all out for 82 games, have had to lead their teams offensively and defensively and be the catalyst on both ends.

Yeah and those guys are ****ing iron men and who knows the kind of load they carry. I look at it like this, remember when the Lakers swept through the West. Well, that dominance began when Fisher came back from injury really late in the season and it carried on into the playoffs as Fisher had an uncharacteristically productive run. I refuse to believe being so fresh had nothing to do with his performance. Now it still adds to his career because the playoffs are more important but we cant lose sight of 82 games.


I don't care if Kyrie Irving plays 10 regular season games or 50... Who cares what others do? There is absolutely no excuse on Lowry's part to continue to put up putrid playoff performances.

Nowhere did I say they aren't comparable or it isn't debatable, but Chronz, how many playoff chances do you give a guy before concluding that he simply sucks in the playoffs? Do I need to post that man's advanced statistics to give you a reminder of how bad he is in the playoffs?

The reason I bring up other players is to view what they all provide, unless someone on here played all 82 games and had a better playoffs, I dont see why Lowry isn't on here.

But to answer your Q, I'd give him one more year then Ill stop defending him, or if someone tells me he really wasn't hurting these playoffs Ill take it all back right now. Whatever the case, I still vote him here despite Wade having a better playoffs and worse 82 game run. I might be wrong for it but we're at the point where we have to go with our gut because every other player is going to have their own unique case. Honestly, I would have rather voted for Conley but he went down with an injury so I have less of an idea how hes going to look next year.

Vee-Rex
08-20-2016, 11:06 AM
The putrid showing is something I raised a question on, which is, isn't he closer to league average than putrid at least statistically speaking? Like he was putrid 2 years ago in that single opening round but over his entire playoff career, his PER is at exactly league average, given his superior defense, wouldn't it be more apt to describe him as average instead of putrid? I know what you mean, you're disgusted that an alleged star drops to league average and that in itself makes it putrid but technically speaking, hes been average. Thats all I was saying.

The Kyrie stuff was for more than just you.


Yeah and those guys are ****ing iron men and who knows the kind of load they carry. I look at it like this, remember when the Lakers swept through the West. Well, that dominance began when Fisher came back from injury really late in the season and it carried on into the playoffs as Fisher had an uncharacteristically productive run. I refuse to believe being so fresh had nothing to do with his performance. Now it still adds to his career because the playoffs are more important but we cant lose sight of 82 games.


The reason I bring up other players is to view what they all provide, unless someone on here played all 82 games and had a better playoffs, I dont see why Lowry isn't on here.

But to answer your Q, I'd give him one more year then Ill stop defending him, or if someone tells me he really wasn't hurting these playoffs Ill take it all back right now. Whatever the case, I still vote him here despite Wade having a better playoffs and worse 82 game run. I might be wrong for it but we're at the point where we have to go with our gut because every other player is going to have their own unique case. Honestly, I would have rather voted for Conley but he went down with an injury so I have less of an idea how hes going to look next year.

You know, those are fair enough points (even if I disagree with a couple). I'll give Lowry one more playoffs (and I'll stop bashing him until then). IDC if he's injured or not, he's gotta perform if he's able to play. I don't even expect him to perform better than the reg season, but he should at least be able to match his regular season production. Four playoff opportunities (not counting his playoff run with Houston at 22 years old) should be more than enough to accomplish that. Although I don't care for his game at all, I like Lowry a lot as an individual.

We'll see how it goes with this next season.

FlashBolt
08-20-2016, 12:22 PM
Lowry has a reputation for sucking in the playoffs... I am sick of the "he wasn't healthy or was fat" excuses. You guys didn't give that assurance to Kyrie when you determined who was the better player based off regular season. It's easy to stop Kyle Lowry. He's not a great scorer and forces some pretty terrible shots. Force his teammates out of the game and you'll see Lowry+DeRozan play ISO all day. Neither are great ISO players and that is why you see them struggle. DeRozan's only move is a fadeaway that he tries to pretend he's Kobe when shooting it. Fine, I'll give him one more season but I'm not convinced this guy is going to be any different next year. If he's not healthy or is "fat", that's his own problem. Should be more of a reason to dislike the dude since he's getting paid millions and still can't get a healthy eating habit.

mrblisterdundee
08-20-2016, 01:00 PM
You're overrating Lowry's defense. He's good on spurts and that's it.

Kyle Lowry is possibly the best all-around point guard in the eastern conference, and until DeMar DeRozan gets better at shooting, Lowry is Toronto's best player.

Sadds The Gr8
08-20-2016, 04:18 PM
Hayward is legit, unfortunately playing for the Jazz isn't going to put you on the casual fans radar unless you're on sports center highlights. He has done a lot with that cast of characters/ injuries and has a nice all around game. The stability of Snyder should help him.

I tell you what I'd take him over the Kyle Lowrys of the world without thinking twice about it.

when he carries his team to the playoffs gimme a shout.

mike_noodles
08-20-2016, 04:56 PM
Wow, I can't believe how overrated Draymond Green is on this poll. No way is he the 10th best in the league.

Chronz
08-20-2016, 05:59 PM
Lowry has a reputation for sucking in the playoffs... I am sick of the "he wasn't healthy or was fat" excuses. You guys didn't give that assurance to Kyrie when you determined who was the better player based off regular season. It's easy to stop Kyle Lowry. He's not a great scorer and forces some pretty terrible shots. Force his teammates out of the game and you'll see Lowry+DeRozan play ISO all day. Neither are great ISO players and that is why you see them struggle. DeRozan's only move is a fadeaway that he tries to pretend he's Kobe when shooting it. Fine, I'll give him one more season but I'm not convinced this guy is going to be any different next year. If he's not healthy or is "fat", that's his own problem. Should be more of a reason to dislike the dude since he's getting paid millions and still can't get a healthy eating habit.
Hes not fat anymore tho and this isn't a career award so his fatness in the past doesn't matter, tho it should be noted that lots of fat players had better luck and less responsibility than Lowry.

Im not defending DeRozen hes clearly the inferior player here but with regards to iso scoring, lets put it this way, in the playoffs, isolation plays tend to decrease the most. As an example, when Iso-Joe was leading Atlanta to more wins, it was actually the year they lost more often that they advanced the furthest because they were more of a playoff calibre team based on the makeup of their possessions.

And Kyle is actually at his best when the defense is scrambled or when he can focus on defense, problem is, he doesn't have LeBron James on his team. He doesn't get to attack a defense skewed away from him, he doesn't get to up his defensive intensity to max levels because he has to create to make life easier for DDR.