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View Full Version : 2016 Cavs Championship: Luck, Strategy, or some of both?



Vee-Rex
08-14-2016, 01:31 AM
Alright, I was prompted because of how many people seem to believe that the Cavs only won this series due to luck. I wish to discuss that.

I'm gonna split the NBA finals into 2 sets: Games 1 and 2, and then games 3-7.

Game 1 =========> CLE ORTG = 099.5....................GSW ORTG = 116.3
Game 2 =========> CLE ORTG = 082.6....................GSW ORTG = 118.1

Game 1 =========> CLE FG% = 38%........................GSW FG% = 49%
Game 2 =========> CLE FG% = 35%........................GSW FG% = 54%


As you can see, games 1 and 2 GS dominated the Cavs.

Our ORTG and FG% was so low because of their defense. We focused heavily on trying to get open 3-point shots (like we had during the entire playoffs so far) and couldn't create space because of how fast GS moved on defense in the half-court setting. They switched and rotated 1-5 and our Kevin Love/Channing Frye big man combination was fairly ineffective. It's why our ORTG was so low and our FG% was so low.

GS's ORTG and FG% were so high because they had their way with our defense. Our communication was extremely poor and we tried switching on everything - PnR, and off-ball screens. GS slipped some of those screens, rolled to the basket and got easy points in the paint.

There are a number of reasons we got dominated, but the above numbers show that during games 1 and 2, GS's offense dominated us by having such high ORTG and FG%, and their defense dominated us by keeping our ORTG and FG% very low.

The Cavs made huge adjustments for games 3-7. So let's fast forward to that.

http://fox8.com/2016/06/07/coach-lue-lebron-james-talk-to-media-ahead-of-nba-finals-game-3/

Ahead of game 3, Lue and LeBron talked about being much more aggressive against GS. They said they wanted to push the pace, which was something (at the time) that analysts scoffed at. Why try to play GS's game? It never was about that - GS is a secretly SCARY defensive team in the half-court, and I know people praise it a lot but I dare say they are underrated.

http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2016/story/_/id/15936845/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-told-coach-tyronn-lue-play-faster-pace-golden-state-warriors-nba-finals

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/05/cleveland_cavaliers_plan_to_ru.html

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/tyronn-lue-nba-finals-adjustments-pace-transition-golden-state-warriors-lebron-james/186ixrz9zha31qcil6ws6vo90

Lue wanted the Cavs to score more in transition and run GS up and down to tire them out, making their half-court offense/defense a bit more sluggish. The result? The Cavs had nearly twice as many fast-break points as the Warriors in the Finals.

Fast-break points in the finals:

CLE == 115 (16/gm)
GSW = 066 (09/gm)

Lue also wanted the Cavs to take advantage of mismatches on GS's defensive switches.

Defensively, Lue wanted the Cavs to pack the paint more and force GS to shoot from the outside more, but NOT from Klay and Steph. Lue wanted to make the GS entire offense revolve around 3's from Draymond/Iggy/Barnes.

http://www.fearthesword.com/2016/6/28/12051748/how-the-cavs-shut-the-warriors-down-at-the-rim-during-the-nba-finals

The Warriors in the 2015-16 playoffs averaged 30 3PA per game prior to the finals. In the finals, they averaged 36 3PA. In the first 3 rounds, the % of the Warriors shot attempts that were 3-point shots was 35.6. Remember that. 35.6% of their shot attempts prior to the finals were from beyond the arc.

In the finals? A whopping 43.6% of their shot attempts were from the 3-point line.

So, we have established that the Cavs packed the paint a little more in the finals as an adjustment made by Lue. We established that the Warriors shot MANY more 3PA in the finals than they did in the previous rounds. What's the kicker?

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson BOTH averaged the same amount of 3PA per game in the finals as they did in the previous 3 rounds (Steph at 11 per game, Klay at 10 per game).

So not only did the Cavs intentionally allow GS to shoot more three's in their offense (43.6% of their shots and 36 3PA per game), but they did it while simultaneously preventing Steph and Klay from getting in on all those extra attempts.

Those are a few of the adjustments Lue and Bron made (besides attacking Curry whenever possible and besides LeBron being more aggressive) after game 2. The results?

Game 3 # =======> CLE ORTG = 128.1.....................GSW ORTG = 096.1
Game 4 =========> CLE ORTG = 115.1....................GSW ORTG = 128.2 (aberration game after Game 2)
Game 5 # =======> CLE ORTG = 113.2.....................GSW ORTG = 098.0
Game 6 # =======> CLE ORTG = 122.5.....................GSW ORTG = 107.5
Game 7 # =======> CLE ORTG = 102.5.....................GSW ORTG = 098.1

Game 3 # ========> CLE FG% = 53%........................GSW FG% = 42%
Game 4 ==========> CLE FG% = 47%........................GSW FG% = 41% (aberration game after Game 2)
Game 5 # ========> CLE FG % = 53%........................GSW FG% = 36%
Game 6 # ========> CLE FG% = 52%........................GSW FG% = 40%
Game 7 # ========> CLE FG% = 40%........................GSW FG% = 39%

The abberation game 4 signifies the one game where the Warriors simply broke the 3-pointers record made in NBA Finals history, making 17/36. 4/5 of the Warriors players shot minimally 40% from beyond the arc in that game (Iggy/Steph/Klay/Barnes) while Draymond Green did not. The Cavs held the Warriors to 34% from 2-point range... 34%! But the Warriors were simply too hot from 3-point range, shooting well beyond their normal percentages. The Cavs also made 10 less free throws (57% from the stripe), shot 25% from 3-point range, and STILL came close to winning that game 'til late in the 4th. Despite ALL of that, the Cavs shot an overall better FG%, yet the Warriors posted an eye-popping 128.2 ORTG, due to the amount of 3-pointers and free throws they hit. The numbers clearly show that it was a game unlike any other in the entire series, especially when compared to the final 5 games.

I maintain that the Cavs won the series mainly because of adjustments. Would the Warriors have won if Green played game 5? Maybe, maybe not. If Bogut didn't get hurt in game 5? Maybe, maybe not. If Iggy wasn't hobbled in the 2nd half of game 6? Maybe, maybe not. We will never know, just as there are many question marks surrounding the 2015 Finals and how it's painfully obvious that Kyrie being hurt was a huge DETRIMENT to the Cavs chances that year.

What we DO know is games 3-7, the Cavs were dominating GS, offensively and defensively. They made adjustments and the numbers show it. So IMO, the Cavs winning the championship was mostly due to strategy, with a little help from the hobbled/missing players.

I have to give kudos to HotRocks for some of this data.

JasonJohnHorn
08-14-2016, 03:09 AM
It's always a bit of both. Always.

You need the strategy. You can't win without it. But neither can you win without luck.

Whether that is your team being healthy, or getting a call or bounce go your way, or getting a lottery ball to bounce in your favour.

The Lakers got lucky in 88 when Thomas got injured for game 7. The Heat got lucky when Rose went down with an injury. There is always some form of good fortune. Maybe the Bulls in 91 and 96 didn't need luck, and maybe the 76ers didn't need it when they won. Or the KobeShaq Lakers in 01. But very few teams dominate healthy teams throughout the post season, and even those teams have the good fortune of the right draft pick, or a healthy roster.


Last year the Warriors got lucky when the Cavs had injuries. This year the Cavs got lucky when the Warriors had injuries and a suspension.

95% of winning is putting yourself in a position to winning and not giving up. It's why the Mavs eventually won. You keep a team in contention for 15 years, and you are bound to get the right set of circumstances. And it is why the Thunder didn't win, or the Suns, because both teams put $$$$ ahead of winning.


You have to give teams credit for putting themselves in the position to win, but you have to concede that their is a degree of good fortune.

It is very rare in the NBA that a team who wins isn't in contention for multiple seasons. And its why its rare that a team who wins doesn't win repeatedly (Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons, Lakers again, Spurs, Mavs, Miami, Goldenstate, and Cleveland all won repeatedly or made repeated finals appearances.

More-Than-Most
08-14-2016, 05:10 AM
Mostly luck but it pretty much happens all the time. I think Lebron james is a top 5 GOAT but even Lebron James should not have been able to play at the level he did after being down 3-1 and that isnt because Lebron James is an unstoppable beast which he is but because the warriors lost talent to injuries which happens and because they decided to game plan Lebron a bit differently maybe because of Kyrie emerging.

Now all that being said to me it was clearly alot of luck but also a pretty big choke job by the warriors players who let the cavs get in their heads which could be stated as strategy with how Lebron started to taunt players and piss green off... He was 100 percent in Currys head as well.

Then there is the attacking curry on defense almost every single time and forcing him to play both ends of the floor and actually defend at a good to high level which he just isnt capable of doing and that hurt his game..

If the warriors and cavs replay that series 10 times I fully expect the cavs to win 2 of the 8 series if both teams are fully healthy and going in I had the warriors winning in 5 or 6 with several blow outs. The cavs are a very good team but I had them behind the Spurs/Thunder/Warriors/Healthy heat team last season and had they played a healthy heat team I dont think they make the finals... You cant have Kevin Love and Kyrie irving on the same team with how bad both are on the defensive end of the court and I know stats say love is actually a good defender but that is horse ****.

The warriors lost their edge when they lost bogut and the cavs punched them in the mouth and bullied them... The warriors losing was good for the cavs but really really bad for the league but not because they went out and got Durant... Because they were an entitled team which is understandable but they were on a really tall high horse and they got knocked down and now those same players that took their competition as a joke are going to be mad and hungry and even without Durant this league is about to get turned upside down this year by the warriors because they wont allow bad luck to dictate their historic run next season.

More-Than-Most
08-14-2016, 05:18 AM
I voted both but it isnt pretty evenly... 25/75 strategy/luck

Whoops didnt see the mostly part... Can a mod swtich my answer to mostly luck.

SteBO
08-14-2016, 10:35 AM
When people say your team got lucky, fans are always gonna take it as a slight because it comes off as not giving your team credit for how well they played.

I mean, hell, I get told all the time about how lucky the Heat were that Ray Allen hit that 3 in Game 6. They're absolutely right, but there was still a Game 7 to play, and they did what they had to do. The same applies here. Sure they were fortunate Green got suspended and there were injuries their side too, but so what? The Cavs are champs now. To use luck as a means to diminish what they accomplished is a pointless and idiotic endeavor.

Vee-Rex
08-14-2016, 11:06 AM
Great opinions, and while I disagree with some, it's an interesting discussion IMO.

I think the stats show that the turning point in the series took place in game 3, rather than game 5, which is why I feel the title win was mostly strategy with some luck sprinkled in. I feel that if the Cavs had won game 4, a lot more people would view the title win more as strategy than luck. I think the aberration of that game led to a Warriors victory and so everyone honed in on game 5, which was missing Green, and so they view the whole thing as mostly luck or pretty evenly.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 11:42 AM
Mostly luck but it pretty much happens all the time. I think Lebron james is a top 5 GOAT but even Lebron James should not have been able to play at the level he did after being down 3-1 and that isnt because Lebron James is an unstoppable beast which he is but because the warriors lost talent to injuries which happens and because they decided to game plan Lebron a bit differently maybe because of Kyrie emerging.

Now all that being said to me it was clearly alot of luck but also a pretty big choke job by the warriors players who let the cavs get in their heads which could be stated as strategy with how Lebron started to taunt players and piss green off... He was 100 percent in Currys head as well.

Then there is the attacking curry on defense almost every single time and forcing him to play both ends of the floor and actually defend at a good to high level which he just isnt capable of doing and that hurt his game..

If the warriors and cavs replay that series 10 times I fully expect the cavs to win 2 of the 8 series if both teams are fully healthy and going in I had the warriors winning in 5 or 6 with several blow outs. The cavs are a very good team but I had them behind the Spurs/Thunder/Warriors/Healthy heat team last season and had they played a healthy heat team I dont think they make the finals... You cant have Kevin Love and Kyrie irving on the same team with how bad both are on the defensive end of the court and I know stats say love is actually a good defender but that is horse ****.

The warriors lost their edge when they lost bogut and the cavs punched them in the mouth and bullied them... The warriors losing was good for the cavs but really really bad for the league but not because they went out and got Durant... Because they were an entitled team which is understandable but they were on a really tall high horse and they got knocked down and now those same players that took their competition as a joke are going to be mad and hungry and even without Durant this league is about to get turned upside down this year by the warriors because they wont allow bad luck to dictate their historic run next season.

Timeout.. Are you even reading what you're saying? The Cavs are behind other teams because they have 2 poor defenders, correct? That is your opinion?

Also, to your other point.. The Warriors got beat up and bullied without Bogut, correct? That is your line of thinking?

The Warriors have 2 poor defenders in Steph and now KD and they traded Bogut so won't have him at all.. Yet they're supposed to turn the league upside down?

Man, are you really reading what you're saying/typing?

WOW, just wow. That literally makes zero sense. Pretty contradictory, don't ya think?

kobe4thewinbang
08-14-2016, 11:57 AM
The Cavaliers had a better team this time, especially Kyrie Irving, who if he had played better, might've ended the series sooner. Of course he hit THE shot that won the title, and exposed Steph Curry's defensive skill.

Also, LeBron almost beat the Warriors without Love & Irving, so many fans figured the Cavs could definitely win this time, but some fans thought they'd be worse defensively.

Other factors:

-Steph Curry's health (was he at 100%?)
-Draymond Green poor performances, except for Game 7
-Harrison Barnes poor showings
-Bogut's injury

And most of all, I think: That scoreless back-and-forth exchange in the final minutes of Game 7 during which Cavs dodged several open would-be dagger shots from GS. Curry couldn't hit a shot either!

That block by LeBron was outstanding too, and the shot defense on Curry once Kyrie hit that shot, and although it was a nice play that got Irving on Curry, getting enough space with his dribbling skill, it was still a tough shot. I think if that misses GSW finally makes a bucket on the break.

I probably sound like I'm disagreeing with you, but I'm not. I think Cleveland just won the duel so to speak and GSW ran out of steam, specifically psychologically. Next season I think Splash Bros come back down to earth, don't try to break records, and win in crunch time. Those final mad dashes to get off a shot, let alone make one, was not Warriors basketball. I think Cleveland woke up the beast, but Cavs are still formidable too.

Overall, I'd say they caught a lot of breaks but they earned this title, especially LeBron at home, and also still have the best player, despite what some people think. Curry will learn from it though.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 12:09 PM
Great opinions, and while I disagree with some, it's an interesting discussion IMO.

I think the stats show that the turning point in the series took place in game 3, rather than game 5, which is why I feel the title win was mostly strategy with some luck sprinkled in. I feel that if the Cavs had won game 4, a lot more people would view the title win more as strategy than luck. I think the aberration of that game led to a Warriors victory and so everyone honed in on game 5, which was missing Green, and so they view the whole thing as mostly luck or pretty evenly.

I don't think the stats show a turning point in game 3. Watching game three, it was an uninspired GS team vs a back to the wall Cavs, and thats what happens. I don't look at game 4 as an aberration at all. When you have the two best 3 pt shooters in the NBA and you have great ball movement, and you just got beat, you tend to play harder and more focused, and thats what they did.

To me Bogut was the biggest loss of the series. Bout in the middle kept Tristan Thompson and Love at bay on the boards, and controlled Lebron going to the hole at will. He was the biggest and most physical player in the finals. Once he was gone, Lebron was completely uncontrollable going to the hole, as was Tristan and Love rebounding the ball.

I think the statistical differentials are based on Bogut not being available.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the Cavs. And when they were hurt last year, I said I believed that the Cavs would of won with both healthy...so I can't have it both ways ya know. If I believed injuries caused the Cavs to loose, then I also gotta keep it 100 when the exact opposite happens. But more importantly than keeping it 100, its honestly the way I feel based on what I saw the last two years in the finals.

Yanks All Day
08-14-2016, 12:20 PM
It's 80/20 strategy/luck. The 20% luck came in the form of Bogut's injury, not Draymond Green getting himself suspended for Game 5 on his own home court. Honestly, the Bogut injury was bigger than the Green suspension because it gave Cleveland a big size advantage.

Otherwise, here's what Cleveland did: they took a page out of OKC's playbook and put Curry in bad situations. They isolated Kyrie on him as much as possible and made him work. They didn't leave shooters open and they made sure Tristan Thompson was in position to let his energy impact the game. Cleveland found their matchup advantages and they attacked. Kay wasn't as consistent as they needed him to be, Barnes disappeared, and Curry got sloppy with the ball. Last year, he didn't have to work defensively because he guarded Dellavedova. This year, he actually had to use energy on the defensive end, which surely impacted his offensive game. Cleveland clogged the lanes and didn't let him get any clean shots or passes off. He was a liability defensively and got sloppy offensively. So the Cavs got him to force bad shots and turn the ball over, and then they ran with it. Games 3, 5, and 6 were Cleveland blowouts, and Game 7 was a showcase of Curry's defensive weakness. That was the Cavs' strategy: Make Curry work. And it paid off.

If you attribute it to mostly luck, you have to then say Golden State's 2015 ring was mostly luck, with Love and Kyrie not playing in the Finals. And that series was MORE impacted by injuries. The Cavs had a better game plan, and LeBron played his best basketball when it counted. It was some luck, as every championship needs, but to credit it mostly to luck would be to discredit a hell of a coaching job by Ty Lue and great execution by the Cavs.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 12:24 PM
I do however think the Cavs beat every other team in the finals. And they would absolutely handle the Miami heat. I 100% disagree with the notion that MTM is going on about.

Vee-Rex
08-14-2016, 01:24 PM
It's 80/20 strategy/luck. The 20% luck came in the form of Bogut's injury, not Draymond Green getting himself suspended for Game 5 on his own home court. Honestly, the Bogut injury was bigger than the Green suspension because it gave Cleveland a big size advantage.

Otherwise, here's what Cleveland did: they took a page out of OKC's playbook and put Curry in bad situations. They isolated Kyrie on him as much as possible and made him work. They didn't leave shooters open and they made sure Tristan Thompson was in position to let his energy impact the game. Cleveland found their matchup advantages and they attacked. Kay wasn't as consistent as they needed him to be, Barnes disappeared, and Curry got sloppy with the ball. Last year, he didn't have to work defensively because he guarded Dellavedova. This year, he actually had to use energy on the defensive end, which surely impacted his offensive game. Cleveland clogged the lanes and didn't let him get any clean shots or passes off. He was a liability defensively and got sloppy offensively. So the Cavs got him to force bad shots and turn the ball over, and then they ran with it. Games 3, 5, and 6 were Cleveland blowouts, and Game 7 was a showcase of Curry's defensive weakness. That was the Cavs' strategy: Make Curry work. And it paid off.

If you attribute it to mostly luck, you have to then say Golden State's 2015 ring was mostly luck, with Love and Kyrie not playing in the Finals. And that series was MORE impacted by injuries. The Cavs had a better game plan, and LeBron played his best basketball when it counted. It was some luck, as every championship needs, but to credit it mostly to luck would be to discredit a hell of a coaching job by Ty Lue and great execution by the Cavs.

This is more in line with how I feel.

Great post.

Chronz
08-14-2016, 01:25 PM
I look at it like this, through 6 games, the 2 sides had had equally demonstrative triumphs but they weren't on equal footing through the 2nd half either. GSW dominated through 4 games like few ever had. Then G5 happened without their DPOY and Bogut+Iggy got hurt thereafter. G7 was up for grabs and anytime thats true, theres luck involved. If Bron is .2 seconds late on that block who knows what happens. Still, when both teams were healthy, they mopped the floor with you guys. I get what you're saying, Cleveland was shellshocked and took some time to adjust, thats perfectly normal but they were sooo close to being eliminated its hard to ignore the luck factor, as opposed to last year when it was over once GS adjusted, we dont know how many games Irving helps them win but a nail biting Finals where the Warriors just needed some semblance of luck to win? Thats far closer. Tho I will take this time to laugh at all the intellectuals who thought Cleveland would have a better chance to win with far inferior talent/depth just because they mucked up the game.

Speeding up the game against the Dubs was always the right thing to do, they just couldn't do it without the horses. I do believe the Cavs win last year if they're healthy but this year, I dont know man.

Lets start with your defensive gameplan, firstly I believe you faced a more hobbled Curry than OKC did and you definitely faced a less complete team given the injuries/suspensions.

According to NBA.com, the Thunder actually defended Curry tighter, in fact, the Cavs never had a single game where the tracking system logged a "very tight" possession whereas the Thunder forced Curry into at least one of those in 4 games. In terms of open and wide open shots, Curry got more vs Cleveland the difference to me seems like he made more of the harder shots vs OKC.

Ill check the numbers for Klay and co but I wouldn't be surprised to see much of the same thing, so to some effect, I do believe its luck that they missed more open shots against you guys but at the same time, high variance has always been the name of the game with regards to 3pt shooting teams. Remember when Orlando pummeled Cleveland with a barrage of 3's, most gamblers I talked to knew it was unsustainable beyond whatever defensive adjustments the Lakers made. I remember I made a thread likening 3pt shooters to a hot pitcher in the MLB playoffs. They can be HUGE game changers and the best shooting team in history happened to finally go cold against your inferior defense, at least IMO.


Some people refuse to believe in the law of averages and hold players accountable for bad games when in reality, it could simply just be a product of nature. Like when Ray Allen lit the Lakers on fire for like 10 3's or something only to shoot blanks on the next 23 3's or something, do you say Ray Allen choked even though his averages are pretty much in line with his established norms? Or do you recognize he caught fire and was bound to regress?

Chronz
08-14-2016, 01:31 PM
The only true way to answer this would be to ask yourself, of all the champions in NBA history, how many were more influenced by luck than this one? I think we all agree its not the most demonstrative championship run thats for sure(its why I laugh at the notion that Bron and Kyrie were some type of historic duo when in reality, one was a defensive liability for large portions), so by default its already on the back end IMO. While it may not be the luckiest championship ever, is it in the bottom percentile? I would think so, how many other championships have gone 7 with the opposing team suffering so many significant injuries/ejections?

Chronz
08-14-2016, 01:36 PM
It's always a bit of both. Always.

I hate this answer, its NEVER equal amounts of luck and scheme between 2 champions. I think if luck were a 50/50 proposition, we would have numerous different champs. I think Wilt ends up with 4-5 rings had he had some semblance of luck on his side, but he was always straddled with injured teammates, inept coaches (some of which would rather mock him than win) and suffered numerous losses where the error margin was incredible small.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 02:17 PM
Delete

Vee-Rex
08-14-2016, 03:21 PM
I look at it like this, through 6 games, the 2 sides had had equally demonstrative triumphs but they weren't on equal footing through the 2nd half either. GSW dominated through 4 games like few ever had.

I won't respond to the rest of your post or address your points until we clear this up. Did you read the entirety of my post?

I demonstrated through stats how CLE dominated games 3-7 when they made their adjustment, so how are you coming to the conclusion that GS dominated through 4 games???

Vee-Rex
08-14-2016, 03:23 PM
Game 3 # =======> CLE ORTG = 128.1.....................GSW ORTG = 096.1
Game 4 =========> CLE ORTG = 115.1....................GSW ORTG = 128.2 (aberration game after Game 2)
Game 5 # =======> CLE ORTG = 113.2.....................GSW ORTG = 098.0
Game 6 # =======> CLE ORTG = 122.5.....................GSW ORTG = 107.5
Game 7 # =======> CLE ORTG = 102.5.....................GSW ORTG = 098.1

Game 3 # ========> CLE FG% = 53%........................GSW FG% = 42%
Game 4 ==========> CLE FG% = 47%........................GSW FG% = 41% (aberration game after Game 2)
Game 5 # ========> CLE FG % = 53%........................GSW FG% = 36%
Game 6 # ========> CLE FG% = 52%........................GSW FG% = 40%
Game 7 # ========> CLE FG% = 40%........................GSW FG% = 39%

The above looks like domination from the Cavs games 3-7, with game 4 providing GS with an exceptional ORTG (due to breaking the finals 3-point record).

Chronz
08-14-2016, 05:46 PM
I won't respond to the rest of your post or address your points until we clear this up. Did you read the entirety of my post?

I demonstrated through stats how CLE dominated games 3-7 when they made their adjustment, so how are you coming to the conclusion that GS dominated through 4 games???

Mostly because the injuries/ejections didn't stockpile in Games 1-4 and I think if fully healthy there are counter cards Kerr could have played. I read your post man, Im not suggesting Im right, just providing the counter point we can begin from.

Chronz
08-14-2016, 05:49 PM
Game 3 # =======> CLE ORTG = 128.1.....................GSW ORTG = 096.1
Game 4 =========> CLE ORTG = 115.1....................GSW ORTG = 128.2 (aberration game after Game 2)
Game 5 # =======> CLE ORTG = 113.2.....................GSW ORTG = 098.0
Game 6 # =======> CLE ORTG = 122.5.....................GSW ORTG = 107.5
Game 7 # =======> CLE ORTG = 102.5.....................GSW ORTG = 098.1

Game 3 # ========> CLE FG% = 53%........................GSW FG% = 42%
Game 4 ==========> CLE FG% = 47%........................GSW FG% = 41% (aberration game after Game 2)
Game 5 # ========> CLE FG % = 53%........................GSW FG% = 36%
Game 6 # ========> CLE FG% = 52%........................GSW FG% = 40%
Game 7 # ========> CLE FG% = 40%........................GSW FG% = 39%

The above looks like domination from the Cavs games 3-7, with game 4 providing GS with an exceptional ORTG (due to breaking the finals 3-point record).

Yeah thats kind of why I stated that through 6 games the 2 teams had equally demonstrative efforts. Yet upon further inspection, we see that one team had a greater benefit of player health/availability.

In the end I feel the basketball gods corrected both issues, Cavs should have won last year, Dubs should have won this year, there is a rubber match to be played, except that one of the 2 best teams these last 2 years has added an MVP. Yuck

hugepatsfan
08-14-2016, 06:07 PM
It was really impressive how CLE dominated GS to the tune of a negative 11 point victory in game 4. Not sure we've ever witnessed domination like that before TBH.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 06:30 PM
It was really impressive how CLE dominated GS to the tune of a negative 11 point victory in game 4. Not sure we've ever witnessed domination like that before TBH.

Are you still mad about the sweep in 2015? Or getting eliminated before having the chance to get swept in 2016?

Probably both.

hugepatsfan
08-14-2016, 06:47 PM
Are you still mad about the sweep in 2015? Or getting eliminated before having the chance to get swept in 2016?

Probably both.

lol at thinking I'm mad about BOS losing the last two years. We haven't been very good. This year was mildly disappointing because we had a shot to maybe win a round. But the year we lost to you guys... only a damn fool would be upset we should have got swept. If anyone should be upset with that series it's CLE because the game 1-3 margins should have been more like game 4.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 06:58 PM
lol at thinking I'm mad about BOS losing the last two years. We haven't been very good. This year was mildly disappointing because we had a shot to maybe win a round. But the year we lost to you guys... only a damn fool would be upset we should have got swept. If anyone should be upset with that series it's CLE because the game 1-3 margins should have been more like game 4.
Lol yeah margin of victory is what we should be upset about from that series, SMH.

Shlumpledink
08-14-2016, 07:05 PM
I love when people say about championships "oh they were just lucky they didn't have to face..." or "because this player wasn't 100%"

That is literally every championship. Going back throughout all the years luck has factored into every championship. No championship is one without things working out in your favor through luck. No game of basketball is played in a vacuum. Who you play, and when you play is vitally important.

More-Than-Most
08-14-2016, 07:35 PM
Timeout.. Are you even reading what you're saying? The Cavs are behind other teams because they have 2 poor defenders, correct? That is your opinion?

Also, to your other point.. The Warriors got beat up and bullied without Bogut, correct? That is your line of thinking?

The Warriors have 2 poor defenders in Steph and now KD and they traded Bogut so won't have him at all.. Yet they're supposed to turn the league upside down?

Man, are you really reading what you're saying/typing?

WOW, just wow. That literally makes zero sense. Pretty contradictory, don't ya think?

Timeout.. Durant is now a bad defender? It makes 100 percent sense.. Bogut being out wasnt the only reason for why the warriors lost. This year they just added the 3rd or 4th best player in the world with a case to be made for top 2.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 07:44 PM
I love when people say about championships "oh they were just lucky they didn't have to face..." or "because this player wasn't 100%"

That is literally every championship. Going back throughout all the years luck has factored into every championship. No championship is one without things working out in your favor through luck. No game of basketball is played in a vacuum. Who you play, and when you play is vitally important.

Just to be clear, I 100% agree with you here. Cleveland are the champs and they earned it. They shut down Curry and outplayed GS to get the victory. I am not saying that there win deserves an asterisk, or anything like that. They did it, against all odds coming back down 3-1. I was rooting so hard for the victory and I am so happy they won, and am still not the high of winning. I'm happy that Bron was able to play so awesome and get the credit he deserves, because of the victory. He played a game that only he could.

All I am saying is, please do not think because you won the championship, that you need to do nothing to improve your team. Understand how fortunate you were to win this, and that you should not think you can waltz into the same situation and expect to come down from a 3-1 deficit.

I want them to win again next season. So do everything you can to improve your team. That is all.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 07:54 PM
Timeout.. Durant is now a bad defender? It makes 100 percent sense.. Bogut being out wasnt the only reason for why the warriors lost. This year they just added the 3rd or 4th best player in the world with a case to be made for top 2.

When has Durant ever been a good defender?

Okay, they added KD, who consistently gets dominated by LeBron.

Also, while adding KD they compromised their depth and also altered the entire "peking order" of their team.

Lets not forget adding one of the most incompetent coaches to their staff.. As the associate head coach!

Yup, that for sure adds up to a championship.

smh

More-Than-Most
08-14-2016, 07:59 PM
When has Durant ever been a good defender?

Okay, they added KD, who consistently gets dominated by LeBron.

Also, while adding KD they compromised their depth and also altered the entire "peking order" of their team.

Lets not forget adding one of the most incompetent coaches to their staff.. As the associate head coach!

Yup, that for sure adds up to a championship.

smh

oh boy now we using head to head as evidence? Durant gets dominated by lebron cavs and heat/thunder so that somehow diminishes him on the warriors in his picture perfect roll on a team that won 73 games without him and forced the cavs to a game 7 with all the **** that went against them? So because Durant gets owned by bron this gets watered down? My hero.

also the notion that they compromised depth isnt at all accurate seeing as how they added some pretty good players at the vet minimum... Bogut hurts but they filled voids nicely while adding KD.

Scoots
08-14-2016, 08:17 PM
It's always both. But I believe luck is the result of preparation.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 09:11 PM
oh boy now we using head to head as evidence? Durant gets dominated by lebron cavs and heat/thunder so that somehow diminishes him on the warriors in his picture perfect roll on a team that won 73 games without him and forced the cavs to a game 7 with all the **** that went against them? So because Durant gets owned by bron this gets watered down? My hero.

also the notion that they compromised depth isnt at all accurate seeing as how they added some pretty good players at the vet minimum... Bogut hurts but they filled voids nicely while adding KD.

Why wouldn't you use head to head? If KD is this great defender you make him out to be, won't he be the one shutting down LBJ so they can sweep the Cavs with ease?

His role is picture perfect on the Warriors? Can you please elaborate on that? Because IMO the fit is complete trash with the "BIG 4", but go ahead you have my attention.

They didn't lose 6 rotation players? Hmm, I believe they did. It's not like they lost 6 end of the bench guys.

Barbosa had a solid 3 or 4 games off the bench in the finals, Bogut was your starting center who without him the Cavs bullied the Warriors(by your own admission) ZaZa may be a poor man's version of Bogut but I'm not sure he can duplicate all the things Bogut gave the Warriors, Barnes was the starting SF that KD obviously replaces but his versatile defense and not needing touches is what made that "death line-up" work, especially since he did the dirty work. Ezeli didn't do a whole bunch but he did fill some gaps the past 2 seasons, Speights didn't do a whole lot but the one thing he did do is stay healthy and play games. Rush got shelved but he started 25 games for the Warriors last season, he helped make it through that regular season grind.

They brought back Andy, JMM, Looney and Clark. JMM has yet to play a full season of games with both his seasons(regular and post season combined, he is at 69 total games in the NBA). Looney has played in 5 NBA games in limited mins, he is basically a rookie. McCaw and Jones are both rookies(the NBA speed is a lot to take in for a rookie, especially with the type of pressure they will be under). Andy is a walking injury waiting to happen, if you are depending on him for big minutes just go ahead and give the Cavs the title again. Of that whole group, I actually like Clark and think he can be a solid player but he's just never really had to preform on the big stage.

Obviously bringing Iggy back is huge but you didn't lose him so that wasn't a void to be filled. Livingston has come along way but with KD he most likely gets his role cut unless you think it's livingston over Iggy, which I don't.

I wouldn't really brag about West, someone on here said he is between Speights and Ezeli and I think that is a pretty accurate description, which equals he has no fit on this team. He can't stretch it out to the 3 line and he is too short to play center, he for sure can't get up and down the court. Don't see much of a role for him unless he just over powers guys at the 5 but that is where Draymond is best utilized.

You do have Elliot Williams on a camp invite but he has never did anything to write home about in the NBA, also McGee on a camp invite which he has a lot of potential but he gets in his own way; he could barely get off the bench for the Mavs. If they can keep him under control then McGee is the best bet outta those two, or neither any maybe they go with another young guy.

Either way I think it is very accurate to say they lost a lot of depth, a lot of glue guys, a lot of chemistry, a lot of locker room presence and a lot of guys who knew their place/their role.

mngopher35
08-14-2016, 09:38 PM
The players they lost (Bogut/Barnes/Barbosa/Ezili/Speights/Rush) accounted for roughly 75.6 mpg in the finals last year. Durant/Pachulia/West can cover that time easily when they have to tighten things. Yes they have less solid bodies to throw into rs games (should be winning those by enough anyways) but overall when the playoffs hit and rotations tighten they really aren't in bad shape depth wise at all. 4 All stars who should get 35+ mpg, Iggy who should get 30ish, and role players like Livingston/Pachulia/West to clean up the remaining minutes. Many teams get down to 8 man rotations for the most part, Cavs had something like that in the finals too.

We can discuss how valuable those bottom of the roster spots after that are but I think everyone can agree it doesn't come remotely close to the value of adding a Durant level player. Not having depth is like when Miami had Bibby/Joel anthony starting with Haslem/Chalmers as the first couple off the bench. Not Klay Thompson and Zaza starting with Iggy/Livingston off the bench. GS has some solid depth just not as elite as it was, which considering they got Durant is a huge huge win.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 10:12 PM
The players they lost (Bogut/Barnes/Barbosa/Ezili/Speights/Rush) accounted for roughly 75.6 mpg in the finals last year. Durant/Pachulia/West can cover that time easily when they have to tighten things. Yes they have less solid bodies to throw into rs games (should be winning those by enough anyways) but overall when the playoffs hit and rotations tighten they really aren't in bad shape depth wise at all. 4 All stars who should get 35+ mpg, Iggy who should get 30ish, and role players like Livingston/Pachulia/West to clean up the remaining minutes. Many teams get down to 8 man rotations for the most part, Cavs had something like that in the finals too.

We can discuss how valuable those bottom of the roster spots after that are but I think everyone can agree it doesn't come remotely close to the value of adding a Durant level player. Not having depth is like when Miami had Bibby/Joel anthony starting with Haslem/Chalmers as the first couple off the bench. Not Klay Thompson and Zaza starting with Iggy/Livingston off the bench. GS has some solid depth just not as elite as it was, which considering they got Durant is a huge huge win.

That's all fine and dandy but what about the topic that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole?

Everyone is saying KD is the best player in the world or 2nd best player in the world, at worst the 3rd best player in the world.

Does that not change the dynamic of the team/offense? Does that not change how many shot attempts everyone gets?

Does Klay refusing to sacrifice become a detriment to the team since he's saying before camp even opens?

These are the real questions, the real topic no one wants to talk about or think about.

Because wasn't Steph supposed to be the best player in the world?

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 10:28 PM
That's all fine and dandy but what about the topic that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole?

Everyone is saying KD is the best player in the world or 2nd best player in the world, at worst the 3rd best player in the world.

Does that not change the dynamic of the team/offense? Does that not change how many shot attempts everyone gets?

Does Klay refusing to sacrifice become a detriment to the team since he's saying before camp even opens?

These are the real questions, the real topic no one wants to talk about or think about.

Because wasn't Steph supposed to be the best player in the world?

It will change the dynamic for the better. You saw how the Cavs were able to shut down Steph and stifle the offense? Now if they shut down Steph, the offense doesn't get stifled. If any team tries to pay as much attention to Steph as the Cavs did last year, KD is gonna have a field day.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 10:31 PM
For the record, I think it was 30% strategy 30% luck (injuries to GS) and 40% Lebron being the GOAT. I dont see any other player in history getting that win if you take Lebron off the team. To lead in all categories surpasses any cheat code I've seen on a video game.

hugepatsfan
08-14-2016, 11:09 PM
That's all fine and dandy but what about the topic that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole?

Everyone is saying KD is the best player in the world or 2nd best player in the world, at worst the 3rd best player in the world.

Does that not change the dynamic of the team/offense? Does that not change how many shot attempts everyone gets?

Does Klay refusing to sacrifice become a detriment to the team since he's saying before camp even opens?

These are the real questions, the real topic no one wants to talk about or think about.

Because wasn't Steph supposed to be the best player in the world?

No one is ignoring those questions. There's just no reason to believe it won't work. If they cared about the glory of it they wouldn't have actively recruited Durant and he wouldn't have signed there. Hopefully it does end up being an issues but there's no reason to believe it will be. It's not like these guys can't be off ball players. None of the GS players have ever shown selfish tendencies. Durant's discontent with iso ball and desire to play more team ball has long been documented. Their games mesh perfectly on paper. No reason to suspect that it won't work.

People aren't ignoring the questions you bring up. It's just that there's no reason to believe they will have a negative impact. You just want that to be the case so you're foolishly predicting it will happen. In that case, predict with your brain and not your heart. Or maybe you're just posturing and taking the stance that we can't predict what happens until it does... in that case nut up and make an actual prediction. Do you really expect those questions to be issues for GS?

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 11:12 PM
It will change the dynamic for the better. You saw how the Cavs were able to shut down Steph and stifle the offense? Now if they shut down Steph, the offense doesn't get stifled. If any team tries to pay as much attention to Steph as the Cavs did last year, KD is gonna have a field day.

I don't really agree with that. You have to make KD and Steph work on both ends, you have to bait Draymond and long as Klay is off he will just keep chucking(applies to Steph too, I'm sure KD as well).

All 4 of them are going to be willing to sacrifice if it's going to work. You can't have 4 individuals with all their own agendas, that isn't how success is built.

It's an over simplification to say KD is better than Barnes.. Warriors = title. Klay, Steph and Green all have to take on a new role.

KD isn't going to be okay with standing in the corner playing decoy for inferior players all season long. He is at his best as an ISO player, Klay and Steph aren't going to be okay with standing in the corner playing decoy for the new guy.

Clint Olbrock
08-14-2016, 11:19 PM
No one is ignoring those questions. There's just no reason to believe it won't work. If they cared about the glory of it they wouldn't have actively recruited Durant and he wouldn't have signed there. Hopefully it does end up being an issues but there's no reason to believe it will be. It's not like these guys can't be off ball players. None of the GS players have ever shown selfish tendencies. Durant's discontent with iso ball and desire to play more team ball has long been documented. Their games mesh perfectly on paper. No reason to suspect that it won't work.

People aren't ignoring the questions you bring up. It's just that there's no reason to believe they will have a negative impact. You just want that to be the case so you're foolishly predicting it will happen. In that case, predict with your brain and not your heart. Or maybe you're just posturing and taking the stance that we can't predict what happens until it does... in that case nut up and make an actual prediction. Do you really expect those questions to be issues for GS?

I've already made my prediction, the Warriors aren't going to win the 2017 NBA finals, I don't feel like that is that wild of a prediction.

The Celtics are about the only team in recent history that I can think of that formed a "super team" and won in year one.

Klay already taking his stand in the summer he won't sacrifice is enough for me to feel that way.

Add in the Mike Brown curse and I feel pretty comfortable.

mngopher35
08-14-2016, 11:46 PM
That's all fine and dandy but what about the topic that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole?

Everyone is saying KD is the best player in the world or 2nd best player in the world, at worst the 3rd best player in the world.

Does that not change the dynamic of the team/offense? Does that not change how many shot attempts everyone gets?

Does Klay refusing to sacrifice become a detriment to the team since he's saying before camp even opens?

These are the real questions, the real topic no one wants to talk about or think about.

Because wasn't Steph supposed to be the best player in the world?

Hugepats covered a good chunk but I don't think there is any reason to think this won't work. I get anything is possible but given their skill sets what is the problem you see with fit other than hoping they get mad they don't have the ball enough? I mean it isn't like they weren't aware of this when they were recruiting him or he decided to go there.

All of them add great/elite spacing on the offensive end and only one of them is used to being the main ball handler creating for others (Curry). All of them are capable passers as well, a couple even excelling at it. Having Durant there to possibly help take some of the slack when they need iso scoring is actually a good thing imo and he will excel in the type of open opportunities Barnes had when he gets them (if not it limits help on others). He will need to take a bit of a lesser role overall but he signed on for this ahead of time. On top of this Durant recently showed how incredible he can be defensively and given that plus his size/athletecism it again should help them on the other end as well (not having to do as much offensively should only further his ability on that end with more energy). Durant fits that core so well from a skill set perspective. Yes everyone on the team will need to have somewhat lesser volume but for the most part they can still do what they have always done (Klay elite 3 pt player off screens etc with good d now a 3rd scorer instead of secondary, Durant main scorer outside of the teams main playmaker kinda like with Westy, Green screens/spacing/rebounding/hustle and creating off the open opportunities from Curry specifically in P&R but others as well, Curry main playmaker still with maybe slightly less overall/scoring volume).

Outside of hoping that they totally ignored the idea of having to share the ball more when they recruited/signed there I don't see an issue with their fit/dynamic at all, I think it is actually quite good. It is why I have seen the comment "the best team on paper all time" or discussions of the like from many people on multiple sites (which I have commented on psd about even). Not that I necessarily agree with it but I feel like their fit is seen as very very good together from most. Care to explain why it wouldn't work outside of their ego's not taking the lesser volume well?

lol, please
08-15-2016, 02:29 PM
It's always a bit of both. Always.

You need the strategy. You can't win without it. But neither can you win without luck.

Whether that is your team being healthy, or getting a call or bounce go your way, or getting a lottery ball to bounce in your favour.

The Lakers got lucky in 88 when Thomas got injured for game 7. The Heat got lucky when Rose went down with an injury. There is always some form of good fortune. Maybe the Bulls in 91 and 96 didn't need luck, and maybe the 76ers didn't need it when they won. Or the KobeShaq Lakers in 01. But very few teams dominate healthy teams throughout the post season, and even those teams have the good fortune of the right draft pick, or a healthy roster.


Last year the Warriors got lucky when the Cavs had injuries. This year the Cavs got lucky when the Warriors had injuries and a suspension.

95% of winning is putting yourself in a position to winning and not giving up. It's why the Mavs eventually won. You keep a team in contention for 15 years, and you are bound to get the right set of circumstances. And it is why the Thunder didn't win, or the Suns, because both teams put $$$$ ahead of winning.


You have to give teams credit for putting themselves in the position to win, but you have to concede that their is a degree of good fortune.

It is very rare in the NBA that a team who wins isn't in contention for multiple seasons. And its why its rare that a team who wins doesn't win repeatedly (Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons, Lakers again, Spurs, Mavs, Miami, Goldenstate, and Cleveland all won repeatedly or made repeated finals appearances.

Agreed. Well said.

When people say your team got lucky, fans are always gonna take it as a slight because it comes off as not giving your team credit for how well they played.

I mean, hell, I get told all the time about how lucky the Heat were that Ray Allen hit that 3 in Game 6. They're absolutely right, but there was still a Game 7 to play, and they did what they had to do. The same applies here. Sure they were fortunate Green got suspended and there were injuries their side too, but so what? The Cavs are champs now. To use luck as a means to diminish what they accomplished is a pointless and idiotic endeavor.
It's sad, but that's the way it is, but the truth is that the best team doesn't always win the championship. An unbiased fan has no problem admitting luck comes into play, nor would he have a problem admitting his team was not the best team in a championship winning season if that was the case, for example. Of course, that doesn't matter in the long run, as a fan you always want to win regardless, but the facts remain.

Ultimately it's going to be both, as JasonJohnHorn says.

That's part of the excitment of sports - the games aren't played on paper, they are played on the court. Favorites don't always win. coaches can get outcoached. Injuries happen. Role players have career nights. Stars are absent in key games. Good players may never click and find chemistry. So many variables to consider beyond the projections and stat sheets from a previous season.

I've already made my prediction, the Warriors aren't going to win the 2017 NBA finals, I don't feel like that is that wild of a prediction.

The Celtics are about the only team in recent history that I can think of that formed a "super team" and won in year one.

Klay already taking his stand in the summer he won't sacrifice is enough for me to feel that way.

Add in the Mike Brown curse and I feel pretty comfortable.
Unfortunately I knew someone on PSD would take this out of context, and here we are.

What he meant to address with that statement is that his production isn't going to drop off just because Durant is on the team. He was speaking to how all of them will still be going off and "getting theirs". Obviously everyone outside the bay area wants to run with it and twist that into some sort of drama and "telling" statement of woes to come, but please don't hold your breathe, Durant wants to play with the splash brothers and vica versa. There isn't a Dwight Howard on this team with a history of selfishness or entitlement to where even such assumptions could be warranted.

Chronz
08-15-2016, 03:27 PM
When has Durant ever been a good defender?
A long time now.


Okay, they added KD, who consistently gets dominated by LeBron.
Everyone gets dominated by Bron. Having the guy with the best chance at neutralizing his production is a plus.


Also, while adding KD they compromised their depth and also altered the entire "peking order" of their team.

But they added KD. Why would anyone care about minuscule aspects of winning in comparison to adding an MVP caliber player?


Lets not forget adding one of the most incompetent coaches to their staff.. As the associate head coach!

Yup, that for sure adds up to a championship.

Wow we really have nothing left to hope for but that their assistant coach somehow ****s it up? LMFAO

Clint Olbrock
08-15-2016, 06:21 PM
A long time now. You have the stats to back that? I've seen people say he has improved or has the potential to be good but you have the stats yo show he isn't a lousy defender or you just going to stat it as fact without any basis behind it?


Everyone gets dominated by Bron. Having the guy with the best chance at neutralizing his production is a plus. Everyone gets dominated by LBJ, you could've and should've just left it right there. But since you didn't KD is going to neutrilize LBJ's production at who's expense? Because both Klay and Steph like to shoot or have the ball in their hands, Dray used to run that offense.. KD matching LBJ comes at who's expense?


But they added KD. Why would anyone care about minuscule aspects of winning in comparison to adding an MVP caliber player? Because those "minuscule" aspects of winning are what glued that team together and got them through the regular season grind. The Warriors are going to ride 7 or 8 guys for 82 games + the playoffs? I know that isn't their strategy but according to everyone here it is and dang I really wish it was. KD and Steph wouldn't even be around for the Finals, or completely burnt out.


Wow we really have nothing left to hope for but that their associate head coach somehow ****s it up? LMFAO You can go ahead an LYFAO, but 2 stints of that clown in CLE and I know a lot more about what he can mess up than you do, more than you can even imagine.


What he meant to address with that statement is that his production isn't going to drop off just because Durant is on the team. He was speaking to how all of them will still be going off and "getting theirs". Obviously everyone outside the bay area wants to run with it and twist that into some sort of drama and "telling" statement of woes to come, but please don't hold your breathe, Durant wants to play with the splash brothers and vice versa. There isn't a Dwight Howard on this team with a history of selfishness or entitlement to where even such assumptions could be warranted.If that is what he meant, why didn't he just say that? Also, there isn't enough ball to go around for "everyone to get theirs" there simply isn't, someone if not all 4 are going to have to be willing to sacrifice to be successful. FGA and usage rate are going to go down, all the way around.

Chronz
08-15-2016, 07:13 PM
You have the stats to back that? I've seen people say he has improved or has the potential to be good but you have the stats yo show he isn't a lousy defender or you just going to stat it as fact without any basis behind it?
Dude its defense, I would have an easier time convincing you the world is flat. But suffice it to say, yes the stats back it. Look up multiple year +/- regressions, synergy/counterpart production etc you will see they back him. The anecdotal evidence is there as well as mutliple coaches/players have spoken about how much a 7ft'er with great agility has stifled them with his length. Hes got all the tools man, and hes been great defensively throughout his prime with his apex being a Draymond-Lite of sorts. Seriously he single handedly stifled the leagues greatest play, the Curry-Green PnR because he can both operate on the perimeter AND protect the rim on drives. Very few players bring what he can bring against the best, he just needs Ron Adams and he knows where to be.


Everyone gets dominated by LBJ, you could've and should've just left it right there. But since you didn't KD is going to neutrilize LBJ's production at who's expense? Because both Klay and Steph like to shoot or have the ball in their hands, Dray used to run that offense.. KD matching LBJ comes at who's expense?

Im thinking Draymond, Klay is a toss up for me. He can either have a down year, or he can use this as an opportunity to lead the league in per possession efficiency ala Reggie Miller. Hes already the most prolific scorer who doesn't dominate the ball, imagine if he never wastes possessions? Thats truly terrifying


Because those "minuscule" aspects of winning are what glued that team together and got them through the regular season grind. The Warriors are going to ride 7 or 8 guys for 82 games + the playoffs? I know that isn't their strategy but according to everyone here it is and dang I really wish it was. KD and Steph wouldn't even be around for the Finals, or completely burnt out.

Doubtful, the reason they added an MVP caliber talent was to reduce to load on Curry. A team that was already coasting to 73 wins is about to coast even more, I doubt GS cares about their win total more than being healthy at this point so I dont envision any such environment where they are burned out. Its not like they're the Clippers relying solely on their starting 5 to carry the teams efficiency here, they are a juggernaut that just added more talent. Not a single team in league history says no to adding KD imo, the reasons are obvious. And no, those minuscule aspects didn't glue **** together, theres a reason we call them the small things, without the massive talent, those small things dont even get them in the playoffs.


You can go ahead an LYFAO, but 2 stints of that clown in CLE and I know a lot more about what he can mess up than you do, more than you can even imagine.

If 2 stints in Cleveland are all you know about him then I can imagine much more, maybe its time to watch more basketball outside the team you root for because you only have a great basis for comparison when you watch the league at large. And since you made a presumptuous claim, I will make one of my own. I watch ALOT more basketball than you do, dont take it as a slight because I watch and play more basketball than most of the mother****ers here.


If that is what he meant, why didn't he just say that? Also, there isn't enough ball to go around for "everyone to get theirs" there simply isn't, someone if not all 4 are going to have to be willing to sacrifice to be successful. FGA and usage rate are going to go down, all the way around.

I didn't say this but Ill address it anyhow. The guy just got done saying he doesn't care if he goes scoreless the rest of these Olympics so long as they win gold. The same guy also admitted he would rather not lead his own team cuz "Winning is too much fun". These guys recruited KD and you dont think they know what his addition entails in terms of shots and the pecking order?

This isn't Wilt Chamberlain going to LA and having Elgin Baylor refuse to see the truth, these are a group of betas committed to winning. And I dont think you realize what a luxury it is to not have enough balls to go around. I'd rather have not enough balls than not enough talent thats for sure and when the pieces seemingly mesh so clearly (which is why its more than just paper analysis), I just dont see a reason to bet on anyone else. Like I've literally never bet on a team this early in the year but the deal was too good to pass up IMO.

Chronz
08-15-2016, 07:18 PM
I put it this way, the sign of a team maximizing itself is one in which there is no player who maximizes his touches. Like MJ was putting up his highest scoring days on ****** teams, once he got more talent they took the ball out of his hands and the team was winning, finally.

GS just went above and beyond, adding an MVP to such a historic core, I truly hope you're right and that it all blows up but Im not seeing any reason to predict that. Its just too good of a team

Clint Olbrock
08-15-2016, 08:21 PM
Dude its defense, I would have an easier time convincing you the world is flat. But suffice it to say, yes the stats back it. Look up multiple year +/- regressions, synergy/counterpart production etc you will see they back him. The anecdotal evidence is there as well as mutliple coaches/players have spoken about how much a 7ft'er with great agility has stifled them with his length. Hes got all the tools man, and hes been great defensively throughout his prime with his apex being a Draymond-Lite of sorts. Seriously he single handedly stifled the leagues greatest play, the Curry-Green PnR because he can both operate on the perimeter AND protect the rim on drives. Very few players bring what he can bring against the best, he just needs Ron Adams and he knows where to be.


Im thinking Draymond, Klay is a toss up for me. He can either have a down year, or he can use this as an opportunity to lead the league in per possession efficiency ala Reggie Miller. Hes already the most prolific scorer who doesn't dominate the ball, imagine if he never wastes possessions? Thats truly terrifying


Doubtful, the reason they added an MVP caliber talent was to reduce to load on Curry. A team that was already coasting to 73 wins is about to coast even more, I doubt GS cares about their win total more than being healthy at this point so I dont envision any such environment where they are burned out. Its not like they're the Clippers relying solely on their starting 5 to carry the teams efficiency here, they are a juggernaut that just added more talent. Not a single team in league history says no to adding KD imo, the reasons are obvious. And no, those minuscule aspects didn't glue **** together, theres a reason we call them the small things, without the massive talent, those small things dont even get them in the playoffs.


If 2 stints in Cleveland are all you know about him then I can imagine much more, maybe its time to watch more basketball outside the team you root for because you only have a great basis for comparison when you watch the league at large. And since you made a presumptuous claim, I will make one of my own. I watch ALOT more basketball than you do, dont take it as a slight because I watch and play more basketball than most of the mother****ers here.


I didn't say this but Ill address it anyhow. The guy just got done saying he doesn't care if he goes scoreless the rest of these Olympics so long as they win gold. The same guy also admitted he would rather not lead his own team cuz "Winning is too much fun". These guys recruited KD and you dont think they know what his addition entails in terms of shots and the pecking order?

This isn't Wilt Chamberlain going to LA and having Elgin Baylor refuse to see the truth, these are a group of betas committed to winning. And I dont think you realize what a luxury it is to not have enough balls to go around. I'd rather have not enough balls than not enough talent thats for sure and when the pieces seemingly mesh so clearly (which is why its more than just paper analysis), I just dont see a reason to bet on anyone else. Like I've literally never bet on a team this early in the year but the deal was too good to pass up IMO.

Look, either provide the stats or we can agree to disagree. You're not the first to proclaim he is a good defender yet no one produces anything to back it. If he is improving cool, show the numbers. If he already improved, awesome show the numbers. IDC about guys opinions on what they said about him.

If we are going around just saying stuff to say then I'll say Kyrie and Love are both improving on their defense :facepalm:

I guess man, but the main point was and still is LBJ dominates KD. Those guys will have to sacrifice just for KD to try to be half the man LBJ is.

They coasted to 73 wins? :laugh: sure thing... You're exactly right that 73 regular season wins means nothing, they should take a page out of the Cavs book and actually rest and take games off during the regular season.

Their big 4 is their entire team though, lol outside of Iggy and possibly Livingston if he is able to turn it on again.

If I was sippin' on that GSW kool-aid, I would be saying glue guys and guys to do the dirty work didn't mean anything too :laugh2: You have no clue about the JR Smith's, the Tristan Thompson's and Richard Jefferson's of the world.

I watched him with the Lakers too, why would I give a crap about a crappy coaches resume before he was well known?

IDC how much ball you watch or play bud, i have watched ENOUGH ball at the NBA level to have seen this super team thing play out MANY times. You can watch more than me and if you had then you should probably put that GSW kool-aid down, bc I have seen this super team thing COUNTLESS times and if u watch more ball than me you have had to see it more times than that.. You figure it out.

He is playing like garbage, he better say he doesn't care if he scores anymore.

You keep referring to KD as MVP, yet Steph is the guy who just won back to back regular season MVP's and he is going to be number 2 to KD? Pretty sure if you look back, Steph had no part of getting KD there as far as recruiting.

Not having enough balls to go around is a luxury when you have Kevin Love or Chris Bosh on your team. It's not a luxury when you have a back to back MVP teaming up with an ISO "alpha" while you have the self proclaimed best SG in the NBA also in that equation. Not to mention the ball kicker, fan puncher, dong picture guy too.

It will blow up in their face, then no one will eat crow because picking a champion in the summer will be "forgotten" by next summer.

IKnowHoops
08-15-2016, 10:16 PM
I'm a Bron fan who is going hard for Cleveland, but as currently constructed, I see GS beating them. I hope I am wrong. I do give Cleveland a chance, because Lebron is unmatched with all the ways he can effect a game. And part of me wants to believe that loosing Bogut is going to hurt GS more than Durant is going to help GS when playing against Lebron.

I'll say this, if Lebron can pull off the victory against this team, and he does it in dominant fashion like last year, then he deserves co-goat acceptance status. Meaning that even if you don't believe he is as good as Mike, you should still not have a problem with him being called the GOAT, noting that he has an argument, seeing as he has proven without a shadow of a doubt he is by far the best player of his generation as he beats a team stacked with the 2nd, 3rd, 9th, and 10th best players on it. Would be like Jordan beating Magic (Curry), Bird(Durant), Reggie Miller(Klay), and Kevin Mchale(Draymond) all in there prime.:laugh:

kobe4thewinbang
08-15-2016, 10:31 PM
I forgot to mention in my first post that those clutch shots made by Kyrie in Cleveland (I think) were really tough and just flat out amazing. I think that is overlooked because he made some great shots, especially the one in game 7, but those shots came before game 7 when Cleveland was on the fringe.

kobe4thewinbang
08-15-2016, 10:33 PM
I'm a Bron fan who is going hard for Cleveland, but as currently constructed, I see GS beating them. I hope I am wrong. I do give Cleveland a chance, because Lebron is unmatched with all the ways he can effect a game. And part of me wants to believe that loosing Bogut is going to hurt GS more than Durant is going to help GS when playing against Lebron.

I'll say this, if Lebron can pull off the victory against this team, and he does it in dominant fashion like last year, then he deserves co-goat acceptance status. Meaning that even if you don't believe he is as good as Mike, you should still not have a problem with him being called the GOAT, noting that he has an argument, seeing as he has proven without a shadow of a doubt he is by far the best player of his generation as he beats a team stacked with the 2nd, 3rd, 9th, and 10th best players on it. Would be like Jordan beating Magic (Curry), Bird(Durant), Reggie Miller(Klay), and Kevin Mchale(Draymond) all in there prime.:laugh:Yeah, LeBron is an all-time great, haters are crazy. I think GS wins next year cuz of Durant being one more weapon against the competition. But if anyone can defeat them it's a team led by LBJ.

Chronz
08-16-2016, 10:24 AM
Look, either provide the stats or we can agree to disagree. You're not the first to proclaim he is a good defender yet no one produces anything to back it. If he is improving cool, show the numbers. If he already improved, awesome show the numbers. IDC about guys opinions on what they said about him.
Im cool with that. Im fine knowing the stats back me and that you could NEVER back up your assertions. If you dont care what head coaches and players have to say, why would anyone care about your unsubstantiated opinion?


If we are going around just saying stuff to say then I'll say Kyrie and Love are both improving on their defense :facepalm:


They are tho......


I guess man, but the main point was and still is LBJ dominates KD. Those guys will have to sacrifice just for KD to try to be half the man LBJ is.

They coasted to 73 wins? :laugh: sure thing... You're exactly right that 73 regular season wins means nothing, they should take a page out of the Cavs book and actually rest and take games off during the regular season.

What else do you call them winning 73 while resting so many 4th quarters? Towards the end of the season they kind of went all out for the record, I dont see that happening as they coast to 69 or something.


Their big 4 is their entire team though, lol outside of Iggy and possibly Livingston if he is able to turn it on again.

That sounds like an elite squad, especially considering that come playoffs, teams shorten their rotation anyways.
Not to mention that David West was more productive than all the bench players they lost, Bogut's defense will be missed but Zaza is a guy who could've commanded +10M and had a great year in Dallas, he signed for the min to round out the team. Who cares about depth when you just strengthened the best lineup in the league? They will be able to always have 2 All-NBA players on the court if Kerr does this right, who else has that kind of star depth? Nobody


If I was sippin' on that GSW kool-aid, I would be saying glue guys and guys to do the dirty work didn't mean anything too :laugh2: You have no clue about the JR Smith's, the Tristan Thompson's and Richard Jefferson's of the world.

Nah, you have no clue about the LeBrons, the KD's, you know, the guys who actually move the needle in a big way.


I watched him with the Lakers too, why would I give a crap about a crappy coaches resume before he was well known?

Because popularity is irrelevant, hes already won titles as an assistant so why would I care about what you think you know?


IDC how much ball you watch or play bud, i have watched ENOUGH ball at the NBA level to have seen this super team thing play out MANY times. You can watch more than me and if you had then you should probably put that GSW kool-aid down, bc I have seen this super team thing COUNTLESS times and if u watch more ball than me you have had to see it more times than that.. You figure it out.

I've seen them play out, its why I put 500 on them before the season even starts. Heres hoping I lose my money bro but the "super teams" that you named only strengthened my opinion.


He is playing like garbage, he better say he doesn't care if he scores anymore.

You keep referring to KD as MVP, yet Steph is the guy who just won back to back regular season MVP's and he is going to be number 2 to KD? Pretty sure if you look back, Steph had no part of getting KD there as far as recruiting.

They have the last 3 MVP winners, that makes KD an MVP. Dont know much about Curry's involvement but the rest of the gang dont care.


Not having enough balls to go around is a luxury when you have Kevin Love or Chris Bosh on your team. It's not a luxury when you have a back to back MVP teaming up with an ISO "alpha" while you have the self proclaimed best SG in the NBA also in that equation. Not to mention the ball kicker, fan puncher, dong picture guy too.

Disagree, having guys like Bosh and Love are actually bigger detriments because they lack the talent and they certainly aren't the same threats that KD is without the ball . In the case of Love, hes grossly exposed defensively, KD wont have that problem as hes used to dominating without pounding the rock, in a way, RWB got him ready for this.


It will blow up in their face, then no one will eat crow because picking a champion in the summer will be "forgotten" by next summer.

I dont see any contending team adding a talent the caliber of an MVP. So even if they lose, I actually think they will STILL be favored to win, its just too much talent not to man. This isn't a Dallas situation where once they won, nobody expected them to repeat.

Clint Olbrock
08-16-2016, 09:14 PM
Im cool with that. Im fine knowing the stats back me and that you could NEVER back up your assertions. If you dont care what head coaches and players have to say, why would anyone care about your unsubstantiated opinion?



They are tho......


What else do you call them winning 73 while resting so many 4th quarters? Towards the end of the season they kind of went all out for the record, I dont see that happening as they coast to 69 or something.


That sounds like an elite squad, especially considering that come playoffs, teams shorten their rotation anyways.
Not to mention that David West was more productive than all the bench players they lost, Bogut's defense will be missed but Zaza is a guy who could've commanded +10M and had a great year in Dallas, he signed for the min to round out the team. Who cares about depth when you just strengthened the best lineup in the league? They will be able to always have 2 All-NBA players on the court if Kerr does this right, who else has that kind of star depth? Nobody


Nah, you have no clue about the LeBrons, the KD's, you know, the guys who actually move the needle in a big way.


Because popularity is irrelevant, hes already won titles as an assistant so why would I care about what you think you know?


I've seen them play out, its why I put 500 on them before the season even starts. Heres hoping I lose my money bro but the "super teams" that you named only strengthened my opinion.


They have the last 3 MVP winners, that makes KD an MVP. Dont know much about Curry's involvement but the rest of the gang dont care.


Disagree, having guys like Bosh and Love are actually bigger detriments because they lack the talent and they certainly aren't the same threats that KD is without the ball . In the case of Love, hes grossly exposed defensively, KD wont have that problem as hes used to dominating without pounding the rock, in a way, RWB got him ready for this.


I dont see any contending team adding a talent the caliber of an MVP. So even if they lose, I actually think they will STILL be favored to win, its just too much talent not to man. This isn't a Dallas situation where once they won, nobody expected them to repeat.

My opinion is only unsupported once you or someone else who is claiming KD is great defender proves it. Until then what you say is no better than what I say. Stats or it's a wash. KD isn't a good defender until it is proven otherwise. By the stats Kevin Love is a better defender than KD, I think this is why most posters don't want to go down that road.

Regular season is pointless, that isn't what I care to even discuss. It's what you are skipping over, which is KD even if he tries can't match LBJ, that is a pretty big talking point, hence why LBJ dominates the kid every time.

You were saying that the Warriors weren't the Clippers, when in fact they have a similar setup of solely relying on like 4 guys and everyone else is whatever.

I've rooted for LBJ both his stints in CLE but I have no clue about him? Give me a break, you also forget I watched Kobe his entire career, along with Shaq on both the Lakers and Cavs. I know plenty about it bub.

He won ONE title with the Spurs, so that trumps the 8 seasons I watched him as head coach? LOL you just proved you know absolutely nothing about him.

Well, if you knew as much about these super teams as you say you do you would know to wait til year 2 to bet on them, if at all.

Klay does care, he already came out and said he isn't sacrificing his game for KD.

Why are you comparing KD to Bosh and Love? That clearly isn't the comparison LMAO KD as you yourself have said is compared to LBJ in both scenarios. Klay, Steph or Green, whoever you think the 3rd option on the pecking order is, is who you compare to Love and Bosh. Not the 1st option KD, lol unless you think KD is the 3rd option on the Warriors :laugh2: but then I guess you wouldn't go around calling him MVP if that was your train of thought.

This is exactly like the Dallas situation for the Cavs, FYI the Warriors didn't just win man. They lost. Steph, Klay and Green blew a 3-1 lead to the Cavs and KD blew a 3-1 lead to the Warriors, it's a a match made in heaven. Not a single dude with a clutch gene in his body, nice work.

IKnowHoops
08-16-2016, 09:44 PM
My opinion is only unsupported once you or someone else who is claiming KD is great defender proves it. Until then what you say is no better than what I say. Stats or it's a wash. KD isn't a good defender until it is proven otherwise. By the stats Kevin Love is a better defender than KD, I think this is why most posters don't want to go down that road.

Regular season is pointless, that isn't what I care to even discuss. It's what you are skipping over, which is KD even if he tries can't match LBJ, that is a pretty big talking point, hence why LBJ dominates the kid every time.

You were saying that the Warriors weren't the Clippers, when in fact they have a similar setup of solely relying on like 4 guys and everyone else is whatever.

I've rooted for LBJ both his stints in CLE but I have no clue about him? Give me a break, you also forget I watched Kobe his entire career, along with Shaq on both the Lakers and Cavs. I know plenty about it bub.

He won ONE title with the Spurs, so that trumps the 8 seasons I watched him as head coach? LOL you just proved you know absolutely nothing about him.

Well, if you knew as much about these super teams as you say you do you would know to wait til year 2 to bet on them, if at all.

Klay does care, he already came out and said he isn't sacrificing his game for KD.

Why are you comparing KD to Bosh and Love? That clearly isn't the comparison LMAO KD as you yourself have said is compared to LBJ in both scenarios. Klay, Steph or Green, whoever you think the 3rd option on the pecking order is, is who you compare to Love and Bosh. Not the 1st option KD, lol unless you think KD is the 3rd option on the Warriors :laugh2: but then I guess you wouldn't go around calling him MVP if that was your train of thought.

This is exactly like the Dallas situation for the Cavs, FYI the Warriors didn't just win man. They lost. Steph, Klay and Green blew a 3-1 lead to the Cavs and KD blew a 3-1 lead to the Warriors, it's a a match made in heaven. Not a single dude with a clutch gene in his body, nice work.

But wouldn't that mean his statement that Durant is a good defender is only unsupported when you can prove that he's not?

I guess you both are right at the moment, or you both are wrong or...:confused:

If a bear s---s in the woods and nobody hears it, did it actually happen?

jason
08-16-2016, 09:55 PM
But wouldn't that mean his statement that Durant is a good defender is only unsupported when you can prove that he's not?

I guess you both are right at the moment, or you both are wrong or...:confused:

If a bear s---s in the woods and nobody hears it, did it actually happen?

Hes just reaching as much as he can. He hasn't provided any facts but instead just stated a bunch things that could happen or what ifs.

He also seems upset that people think GS are big favorites instead of the Cavs

Clint Olbrock
08-16-2016, 10:06 PM
But wouldn't that mean his statement that Durant is a good defender is only unsupported when you can prove that he's not?

I guess you both are right at the moment, or you both are wrong or...:confused:

If a bear s---s in the woods and nobody hears it, did it actually happen?

My next line was, stats or it's a wash. Him or anyone else who is trying to proclaim KD is a good to great defender don't want to get into stats because then it ruins the narrative that the Cavs have 2 poor defenders. Love is statistically a better defender than KD and Chronz himself admitted Kyrie is an improved defender, lol

JordansBulls
08-16-2016, 10:54 PM
Well when you win due to suspension in a closing game for the other team that changes things because the series would have been over in 5.

Clint Olbrock
08-16-2016, 11:14 PM
Well when you win due to suspension in a closing game for the other team that changes things because the series would have been over in 5.
Well Warriors can hand over that 2015 title, because if it was MMA we would've went double nothing for both championships.

In reality the Cavs are back to back champs.

If Draymond was that big of a difference maker, he had game 6 and 7 to close out the series and failed.

Not to mention the knuckle head got himself suspended, if you can't control your emotions and keep hitting people in the balls, you get what you deserve. Dray is an idiot, end of story.

IKnowHoops
08-17-2016, 12:09 AM
Well when you win due to suspension in a closing game for the other team that changes things because the series would have been over in 5.

At the end of the day, the Cavs won. If GS couldn't keep their cool in a championship setting, then they were collectively not the better team. Stupidity is part of the equation on who's team is better. GS had a lot more of that and it caused them to loose. Leadership is also a part of the equation. The Cavs had a lot more of that and it caused them to win. The injury to Bogut is the only thing that you can say what if to. GS had the power to control everything else and they chose to lose there cool, hit balls, and throw mouth pieces etc. Meanwhile Bron soned each one of them, one by one.

Tony_Starks
08-17-2016, 09:09 AM
Depends on what narrative or agenda you're trying to push really.

If you're just taking it at face value Lue made some pretty good rotation adjustments throughout the series, Lebron and Kyrie took over, and Steph waned as the series went on.

Also something that goes unmentioned is that Clevelands "others" like the Richard Jeffersons and Tristian Thompsons of the world eventually outplayed the Warriors support guys and did a lot of dirty work that doesn't show on a stat sheet. That's a pretty big deal seeing as how the first couple games it looked like the Warriors were going to win a entire series with sheer depth.

The rest is injuries and of course luck but that comes with the territory.

jason
08-17-2016, 09:17 AM
Well Warriors can hand over that 2015 title, because if it was MMA we would've went double nothing for both championships.

In reality the Cavs are back to back champs.

If Draymond was that big of a difference maker, he had game 6 and 7 to close out the series and failed.

Not to mention the knuckle head got himself suspended, if you can't control your emotions and keep hitting people in the balls, you get what you deserve. Dray is an idiot, end of story.
That's not reality at all lol

Chronz
08-17-2016, 10:24 AM
That's not reality at all lol

If both teams are healthy in both series, who you got? I got Cleveland last year and GS this year. Worked out just fine for me tho