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View Full Version : Team Magic/Tmac/Bird/Duncan/Shaq vs Team Curry/Wade/Lebron/Garnett/Hakeem, who wins?



JordansBulls
08-12-2016, 08:33 PM
Team Magic/Tmac/Bird/Duncan/Shaq
PG Magic
SG Tmac
SF Bird
PF Duncan
C Shaq

vs

Team Curry/Wade/Lebron/Garnett/Hakeem
PG Curry
SG Wade
SF Lebron
PF Garnett
C Hakeem

Which team wins in 7?

KnicksorBust
08-12-2016, 08:35 PM
Team Magic

Shammyguy3
08-12-2016, 09:04 PM
Curry/Wade/Lebron/Garnett/Hakeem

AntiG
08-12-2016, 09:13 PM
just had to throw Tmac in there didn't you lol

IKnowHoops
08-12-2016, 09:41 PM
Would be an unbelievable series to watch, but I would have to go with Curry/Wade/Bron/KG/Dream. More multi dimensional players on this team. And its a little bit more athletic.

Jayb587
08-12-2016, 09:41 PM
Lebrons team. Wade bron and kg in their primes. Too hard to score on.

kdspurman
08-12-2016, 10:30 PM
Team Magic

This for me as well.

FlashBolt
08-12-2016, 10:47 PM
Way too close to tell but I gotta go with the second team. Just a more complete team with three all-time great defenders during their prime.

europagnpilgrim
08-12-2016, 11:05 PM
1st team would win in 6 close games

KnickNyKnick
08-12-2016, 11:17 PM
Can both teams get Jordan off the bench?

More-Than-Most
08-12-2016, 11:54 PM
Lebron/Curry/Hakeem on the same team is just rediculous... Now factor in KG in his prime and how wade plays in a series like this... I gotta go with this group... I normally go any team with Shaq though.

lakerfan85
08-13-2016, 12:09 AM
Who's gonna guard Magic? Curry?

More-Than-Most
08-13-2016, 12:31 AM
Who's gonna guard Magic? Curry?

whos going to guard curry? Magic?

I am the biggest magic fan on this site and have him in my top 3-5 unlike most but Magic was a bad defender as well.. He could use his length but small/fast guards like curry were a nightmare for him and that doesnt even take into account currys entire offensive game.

Lakers + Giants
08-13-2016, 04:23 AM
After what I've seen from curry in the finals. I go team 1. Shaq/Duncan front court too, wow :drool:

JordansBulls
08-13-2016, 02:20 PM
I am not sure defense will matter much in this matchup since each player can get there own shot and create for others as well. Pretty much each player will have to stay on one guy here. I think you out Magic on Wade here and Tmac on Curry.

JAZZNC
08-13-2016, 03:13 PM
I feel like prime Duncan and Shaq in the front court absolutely ***** all over Dream and KG. Prime bird and Lebron is almost a wash but I'd lean in favor of Bird with his extremely superior outside shooting and will to win. Call me crazy but Prime T-Mac is better than Wade and let's be real Magic is the better player between he and Curry. I feel like the only position they could loose at is SF and that's an if IMO. I think that Team Magic wins it in 6.

ball4reel
08-13-2016, 04:15 PM
The Dream Owned Shaq in the Finals and Garnett and Bron would be to tough to cover. It would be close but team 2 has the edge is my opinion..

*Silver&Black*
08-13-2016, 04:24 PM
Duncan and Shaq with Magic at point? Obviously that team.

JAZZNC
08-13-2016, 06:23 PM
The Dream Owned Shaq in the Finals and Garnett and Bron would be to tough to cover. It would be close but team 2 has the edge is my opinion..

You have to put that finals domination in context though. That was Dream at his peak and Shaq didn't reach his peak until 2000 or so. I also don't get how many people think that KG would do anything other than get owned by Duncan.

hugepatsfan
08-13-2016, 06:29 PM
I think team 1 is more talented but I think team 2 is a better mix of skill sets and close enough talent wise that it actually makes a difference.

hugepatsfan
08-13-2016, 06:37 PM
You have to put that finals domination in context though. That was Dream at his peak and Shaq didn't reach his peak until 2000 or so. I also don't get how many people think that KG would do anything other than get owned by Duncan.

Well in 44 career head to head games...

Duncan: 19.0/11.9/3.2/1.9/0.5, 45.9% from the field
KG: 19.7/10.4/4.0/1.9/1.5, 45.4% from the field

So I think the main reason why people would think KG wouldn't get owned by Duncan in the hypothetical matchup was because he didn't in the real ones that actually happened. Seems like fair reasoning to me.

And those are full career head to head numbers. So they're not even reflective of how KG had a shorter prime (came out of HS rather than 4 years of college and then had a knee injury in 2008 that he was never the same peak player afterwards). I don't know how to do it but if you isolated the head to head numbers for years to the span where both were in their primes then logic would say that the change in numbers would benefit KG more than TD (though I haven't ran them for sure - just setting an expectation based on anecdotal evidence).

europagnpilgrim
08-13-2016, 06:43 PM
I feel like prime Duncan and Shaq in the front court absolutely ***** all over Dream and KG. Prime bird and Lebron is almost a wash but I'd lean in favor of Bird with his extremely superior outside shooting and will to win. Call me crazy but Prime T-Mac is better than Wade and let's be real Magic is the better player between he and Curry. I feel like the only position they could loose at is SF and that's an if IMO. I think that Team Magic wins it in 6.

That's not crazy at all to feel like a healthy Tmac is better than Wade, he trumps him in every offensive phase of the game,Wade is a better one on one defender but he wouldn't stop Tmac in that area because its too big of a height gap

europagnpilgrim
08-13-2016, 06:49 PM
The Dream Owned Shaq in the Finals and Garnett and Bron would be to tough to cover. It would be close but team 2 has the edge is my opinion..


If a guy averaged 28ppg and like 13rpg to go along with 6apg and almost 3 blocks per is getting owned then I don't know what planet of basketball you came from, his team got swept for sure but Diesel was far far far from being owned

JAZZNC
08-13-2016, 07:40 PM
Well in 44 career head to head games...

Duncan: 19.0/11.9/3.2/1.9/0.5, 45.9% from the field
KG: 19.7/10.4/4.0/1.9/1.5, 45.4% from the field

So I think the main reason why people would think KG wouldn't get owned by Duncan in the hypothetical matchup was because he didn't in the real ones that actually happened. Seems like fair reasoning to me.

And those are full career head to head numbers. So they're not even reflective of how KG had a shorter prime (came out of HS rather than 4 years of college and then had a knee injury in 2008 that he was never the same peak player afterwards). I don't know how to do it but if you isolated the head to head numbers for years to the span where both were in their primes then logic would say that the change in numbers would benefit KG more than TD (though I haven't ran them for sure - just setting an expectation based on anecdotal evidence).
When you factor in the fact that KG had to do everything all those years in Minny and Duncan had a much better supporting cast (i.e. didn't have to do as much on his own) and the numbers are still in Duncan's favor....yeah Duncan is the better player and it's not even close. Not to say KG is garbage but he is not on TDs level.

hugepatsfan
08-13-2016, 09:27 PM
When you factor in the fact that KG had to do everything all those years in Minny and Duncan had a much better supporting cast (i.e. didn't have to do as much on his own) and the numbers are still in Duncan's favor....yeah Duncan is the better player and it's not even close. Not to say KG is garbage but he is not on TDs level.

I'm failing to see your logic. First off, to say the numbers are in his favor doesn't even seem right. KG averages an extra point and an extra assist while Duncan got an extra rebound. I'd say that's playing to a statistical draw.

I really fail to see your logic of how KG having a weaker team helps him. Wouldn't that just mean that SA was free to give Duncan more help in the head to head matchup? They played the same minutes as each other in their head to heads and took the same amount of shots on the same percentages so it's not like ou can say KG just piled up counting stats.

I'm not trying to argue that KG is better because he's not but your original statement of "I also don't get how many people think that KG would do anything other than get owned by Duncan" just doesn't make any sense. Duncan didn't own KG head to head over 44 matchups in real life so it just doesn't make sense to me why you'd think he'd do it in a fantasy matchup. What you said just doesn't make any sense.

JAZZNC
08-13-2016, 09:41 PM
Because KG having a worse team helps his individual stats. Really not that hard to wrap your head around. Less help means they look for that one guy to do more (score, rebound, assist, defend).

hugepatsfan
08-13-2016, 10:14 PM
Because KG having a worse team helps his individual stats. Really not that hard to wrap your head around. Less help means they look for that one guy to do more (score, rebound, assist, defend).

He takes one extra shot per game over Duncan in their head to heads (17.4 to 16.3). And shoots the same percentage (.05% lower). He got to the free throw line 2 less times per game which translates to Duncan making that one less shot attempt up by just getting fouled on one instead.

So I don't see how your argument of how KG's worse team helped his scoring stats. Head to head TD had just as many opportunities to shoot. Difference is they were probably easier attempts due to the defensive attention his teamates could draw. But that goes against your argument. That makes KG's offensive numbers head to head being the same more impressive I would think.

I just really can't disagree more with your assessment that KG's weaker teams helped him pile up stats. He simply wasn't that type of player. He wasn't a volume guy.

Even in their 8 playoff games they have identical stats. KG's are probably a little better. Again, they take the same shots per game. Shoot roughly the same percentage. Volume wise, rate wise, they're the same player head to head. And with Duncan having better career averages than KG for them to be evne head to head would seem to imply the opposite of KD "owning him" but it seems you already have a narrative in your head that you won't be swayed from. TD is a better player but the idea that he did own or would own KG head to head simply isn't based in anything but imagination. 1,000,001 is greater than 1,000,000. Not a huge margin but there no question which number is higher. That's KG and TD. There's no question really that TD was the better player but even though the result isn't in doubt the margin isn't very sizable when you're talking about peak.

HOLD_THIS_L
08-13-2016, 10:21 PM
Because KG having a worse team helps his individual stats. Really not that hard to wrap your head around. Less help means they look for that one guy to do more (score, rebound, assist, defend).
Wouldn't it be easier to stop him since he's the main focus?


Hold This L.

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JasonJohnHorn
08-14-2016, 09:48 AM
Shaq and T-Mac love having he ball. Not sure that is good for team chemistry hear.

Also, Shaq will clog the lane, where as Hakeem can spread the floor.

I think Wade and Curry are better shooters, and Hakeem and Garnett is a better defensive duo than Duncan/Shaq.

The Bird/LBJ match-up is the most interesting to me here. I think LBJ would give Bird fits defensively, but Bird was so clutch. It kills me to vote against a team with Magic, Bird, and Duncan, but I gotta go with the other team. If they had Allen or Miller instead of T-Mac, I'd likely go with them. They may not be as good all-around players as T-Mac, but they would be better for team chemistry. Magic would have a field day with Bird and Miller to pass to on the wing.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2016, 10:30 AM
Team B.

FlashBolt
08-14-2016, 01:01 PM
Because KG having a worse team helps his individual stats. Really not that hard to wrap your head around. Less help means they look for that one guy to do more (score, rebound, assist, defend).

You're getting owned left and right here.. just stop.

Jayb587
08-14-2016, 01:41 PM
Duncan is not going to own KG. people maybe forgetting how good prime KG was. its probably an even matchup. I think the LeBron vs bird matchup is interesting. there is no way bird can stop LeBron whereas I think LeBron can stop bird.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 06:17 PM
You have to put that finals domination in context though. That was Dream at his peak and Shaq didn't reach his peak until 2000 or so. I also don't get how many people think that KG would do anything other than get owned by Duncan.

Because he more often than not outplayed both Duncan and Drob when they met in the playoffs.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2016, 06:23 PM
Because KG having a worse team helps his individual stats. Really not that hard to wrap your head around. Less help means they look for that one guy to do more (score, rebound, assist, defend).

Yes but it kills his ability to be efficient yet there efficiency was equal. If KG had better cast, he would of been more efficient than Duncan ever was.

kdspurman
08-14-2016, 09:23 PM
Because he more often than not outplayed both Duncan and Drob when they met in the playoffs.

When?

IKnowHoops
08-15-2016, 01:28 AM
When?

More often than not

thenaj17
08-15-2016, 05:17 AM
Team Magic/Tmac/Bird/Duncan/Shaq
PG Magic
SG Tmac
SF Bird
PF Duncan
C Shaq

vs

Team Curry/Wade/Lebron/Garnett/Hakeem
PG Curry
SG Wade
SF Lebron
PF Garnett
C Hakeem

Which team wins in 7?

Not sure how team B is winning this vote when team A has 4 top 12 players of all time and B has 2.

SoapySweetness
08-15-2016, 08:36 AM
Team Magic wins in 6 or 7.

Not sure Magic or Curry could shut each other down. Magic wins by the matchup simply by making his team better.
TMAC and Wade are both 5th options. I actually give TMAC the edge in this matchup because of Magic - TMAC running with Magic would be fun to watch. I'm not sure Wade would gel with Curry, but as the 5th option, I don't think it would matter that much.
LeBron would likely be too much for Bird over a seven game series, although Bird would be more than able to hold his own for enough stretches.
Duncan's Spurs made Garnett's Wolves was like big brother vs. little brother. I think Garnett's supporting casts are being unfairly discounted in this thread. Duncan wins this matchup.
Using the same logic, Hakeem took it to SHAQ in their only Finals matchup, so I'd give him the edge here. SHAQ ended up with more rings, but he didn't have to play against MJ for his entire career.

KnicksorBust
08-15-2016, 09:41 AM
Not sure how team B is winning this vote when team A has 4 top 12 players of all time and B has 2.

Completely agree. I love that in these comparisons guys like Curry and KG are equal to guys like Magic and Duncan. Makes a lot of sense.

KnicksorBust
08-15-2016, 09:42 AM
Baby Shaq dropped 28ppg on 60% shooting against Dream in that Finals... Prime Diesel? yikes...

KnicksorBust
08-15-2016, 09:43 AM
Team Magic wins in 6 or 7.

Not sure Magic or Curry could shut each other down. Magic wins by the matchup simply by making his team better.
TMAC and Wade are both 5th options. I actually give TMAC the edge in this matchup because of Magic - TMAC running with Magic would be fun to watch. I'm not sure Wade would gel with Curry, but as the 5th option, I don't think it would matter that much.
LeBron would likely be too much for Bird over a seven game series, although Bird would be more than able to hold his own for enough stretches.
Duncan's Spurs made Garnett's Wolves was like big brother vs. little brother. I think Garnett's supporting casts are being unfairly discounted in this thread. Duncan wins this matchup.
Using the same logic, Hakeem took it to SHAQ in their only Finals matchup, so I'd give him the edge here. SHAQ ended up with more rings, but he didn't have to play against MJ for his entire career.

Hakeem has the edge over Shaq? :laugh:

kdspurman
08-15-2016, 09:49 AM
More often than not

They played 8 playoff games against one another. I'm not seeing anything there to say "more often than not" anything.

Obv Robinson was at a latter point in his career, but even his numbers were stellar in those 8 playoff games.

lakerfan85
08-15-2016, 10:36 AM
Baby Shaq dropped 28ppg on 60% shooting against Dream in that Finals... Prime Diesel? yikes...

Agree 100%.. Prime Shaq would be a nightmare for the dream..

Bron > Kobe
08-15-2016, 11:38 AM
Nobody is beating Shaq, Duncan, Bird, and Magic in on the same team in their primes. Especially since I know that curry can be shut down. I'd put Magic on LeBron and Tracy on curry. At the end of the day, Shaq and Duncan are the difference. Hakeem is one of my favorite big men of all time btw. Actually, all of the bigs listed are, but Shaq and Duncan are the most dominant ever at the position.

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Chronz
08-15-2016, 11:52 AM
Shaq and T-Mac love having he ball. Not sure that is good for team chemistry hear.
Why not? Im sure everyone on the team wants Shaq to have the ball, most of all T-Mac, who Yao admits made him better and who was friends with Shaq. They would have great chemistry together, moreso than he and Kobe IMO and those 2 were the best duo ever.


Also, Shaq will clog the lane, where as Hakeem can spread the floor.
Thats true but I look at Shaq as his teams primary option and will need guys to play off him more than the alternative. Like when both were on the Dream Team, Shaq was much more dominant whereas Hakeems jumper was hit or miss as an outlet option. But yeah, with Bron and Wade, you prolly want a bigman who can space out opposing bigs but man, Hakeem and KG will struggle if they ever have to create their own simply because teams will sag off the 2 perimeter guys. Whereas with Team Shaq, its basically just Magic (who figures to be the guy feeding Shaq) who teams can play off of to dig on Shaq.


I think Wade and Curry are better shooters, and Hakeem and Garnett is a better defensive duo than Duncan/Shaq.

Wade is a better shooter than whom? Hes likely the worst shooter of them all.


The Bird/LBJ match-up is the most interesting to me here. I think LBJ would give Bird fits defensively, but Bird was so clutch. It kills me to vote against a team with Magic, Bird, and Duncan, but I gotta go with the other team. If they had Allen or Miller instead of T-Mac, I'd likely go with them. They may not be as good all-around players as T-Mac, but they would be better for team chemistry. Magic would have a field day with Bird and Miller to pass to on the wing.

He already has a shooter, he has a field day running in transition to elite athletes ala James Worthy. With Tmac, he gets a great shooter AND a great athlete. Its also not worth the drastic defensive downgrade, you need Tmacs defensive versatility with Magic and Bird, both guys were usually hidden in the 80's, where do you hide them if you surround them with scrawny defenders who cant help on the boards?

And Im not sure about them being better defensively, which Hakeem do you get and which KG? Cuz KG was always a weak post defender, his value lies in his help/screen defense. KG doesn't get to hide on the weaker frontcourt player here.

Chronz
08-15-2016, 12:01 PM
They played 8 playoff games against one another. I'm not seeing anything there to say "more often than not" anything.

Obv Robinson was at a latter point in his career, but even his numbers were stellar in those 8 playoff games.

More often than not, KG got outplayed by most opposing PF's in their series.

Chronz
08-15-2016, 12:02 PM
Duncan is not going to own KG. people maybe forgetting how good prime KG was. its probably an even matchup. I think the LeBron vs bird matchup is interesting. there is no way bird can stop LeBron whereas I think LeBron can stop bird.

Peak Pippen couldn't stop a broken down Bird, you definitely need to load up on him but he will just pick you apart with his passing. Hes basically their glue guy here whereas Bron has to find a way of getting to the rim with Shaq and Duncan down there. Far more intimidating than a skinny PF and a 6"10 Center.

JordansBulls
08-16-2016, 11:31 PM
Shaq and T-Mac love having he ball. Not sure that is good for team chemistry hear.



I'm not sure any player in NBA History likes having the ball more than Lebron with the way he dominates it.

naps
08-17-2016, 02:58 AM
Team B. Much better defense.

HOLD_THIS_L
08-17-2016, 03:47 AM
Replace Wade with Klay. Wanted to say Kobe but not efficient enough.

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HOLD_THIS_L
08-17-2016, 03:52 AM
And Tracy never hit 39% from 3 in his career. Great player though. Him and Kobe had battles!!!

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FlashBolt
08-17-2016, 12:49 PM
Curry's ability to shoot just puts team 2 on another level. I just can't see team 1 finding a way to stop him. They don't have one capable defender outside maybe T-Mac but then again, prime Wade was an absolute beast as well. The rotations would leave Hakeem+KG wide open all day. Wade is one of best at attacking the rim and there is zero chance Bad Back Larry stays in front of LeBron.

ManningToTyree
08-17-2016, 04:33 PM
Team two in 7

Shammyguy3
08-17-2016, 09:28 PM
Team 3:

Stockton - Jordan - Pippen - Dirk - Robinson


???

Sly Guy
08-17-2016, 09:55 PM
Would be an unbelievable series to watch, but I would have to go with Curry/Wade/Bron/KG/Dream. More multi dimensional players on this team. And its a little bit more athletic.

I looked at it and initially thought the opposite, but yeah, I agree with you. Matchup by matchup, I take Curry->the Dream. Tmac might go off on wade though.

kdspurman
08-17-2016, 11:09 PM
Curry's ability to shoot just puts team 2 on another level. I just can't see team 1 finding a way to stop him. They don't have one capable defender outside maybe T-Mac but then again, prime Wade was an absolute beast as well. The rotations would leave Hakeem+KG wide open all day. Wade is one of best at attacking the rim and there is zero chance Bad Back Larry stays in front of LeBron.

But would Curry show up in such a big game is the better question :) ;) lol

Chronz
08-18-2016, 01:26 AM
I looked at it and initially thought the opposite, but yeah, I agree with you. Matchup by matchup, I take Curry->the Dream. Tmac might go off on wade though.

You couldn't guard Tmac with anyone under 6"6 back in his hey.

More-Than-Most
08-18-2016, 02:11 AM
You couldn't guard Tmac with anyone under 6"6 back in his hey.

Yea but in this 7 game series hed be on the injured reserve list by game 3

Tony_Starks
08-19-2016, 12:23 PM
Magic

IKnowHoops
08-20-2016, 10:25 AM
You couldn't guard Tmac with anyone under 6"6 back in his hey.

KG played the best defense against Tmac I have ever seen. Shut him down. I would go as far as saying Prime KG is the best defender against wing players ever. But I also saw Wade give Tmac problems in the All Star game. Means nothing, but I saw him rip Tmac clean and hassle him bringing the ball up. Wade may be the perfect player to put against Tmac because he's smarter and quicker. He's not going to stop Tmac, but I think he could do a better job than anyone else 6-7 and under not named Jordan, Pippen.

Chronz
08-20-2016, 05:05 PM
KG played the best defense against KG I have ever seen. But I also all Wade give Tmac problems in the All Star game. Means nothing, but I saw him rip Tmac clean and hassle him bringing the ball up. Wade may be the perfect player to put against Tmac because he's smarter and quicker. He's not going to stop Tmac, but I think he could do a better job than anyone else 6-7 and under not named Jordan, Pippen.

What year? If it was any year after 2007 or 2008 (I forget exactly when the knee+Shoulder issues began but it was at some point during that year that he became a big injury risk) then yeah, you could D Tmac up with someone like D-Fish. But before the back, knee, shoulder issues, you couldn't get away with it.

I do remember KG and Mac having a battle for the ages back in 03. As for Wade, I dont know what to make of his 1v1 defense here, hes obviously a great helper but so was Tmac. And back in the day it was always Eddie, Posey, GP checking the best. In fact, do you remember the wheel chair game in 07 when Yao was out with injuries and GP was checking Tmac? I remember the announcers make the point that GP is far too small in the post, that the help was leaving him out to dry, that they would rather see Wade give it a try. He never did. Tmac at his best was capable of putting up huge numbers while locking down on the other end. I never saw that from Wade.



And Im convinced Tmac would guard Wade better than vice versa and he would be a better switcher as well in the team scheme. Wade is a great weakside shot blocker but Tmac would literally anchor his teams defense as a defacto center back in the day. Simply not the same level of talent here.

naps
08-21-2016, 02:03 AM
The way I just read about T-Mac here^^, one would think it's Jordan if the name was not mentioned. Oh and Wade did lock down guys plenty of times at his best and lighted up on the other end.

IKnowHoops
08-21-2016, 02:28 AM
What year? If it was any year after 2007 or 2008 (I forget exactly when the knee+Shoulder issues began but it was at some point during that year that he became a big injury risk) then yeah, you could D Tmac up with someone like D-Fish. But before the back, knee, shoulder issues, you couldn't get away with it.

I do remember KG and Mac having a battle for the ages back in 03. As for Wade, I dont know what to make of his 1v1 defense here, hes obviously a great helper but so was Tmac. And back in the day it was always Eddie, Posey, GP checking the best. In fact, do you remember the wheel chair game in 07 when Yao was out with injuries and GP was checking Tmac? I remember the announcers make the point that GP is far too small in the post, that the help was leaving him out to dry, that they would rather see Wade give it a try. He never did. Tmac at his best was capable of putting up huge numbers while locking down on the other end. I never saw that from Wade.



And Im convinced Tmac would guard Wade better than vice versa and he would be a better switcher as well in the team scheme. Wade is a great weakside shot blocker but Tmac would literally anchor his teams defense as a defacto center back in the day. Simply not the same level of talent here.

I saw KG shut TMac down. I will research and find the game. Ill try and find out when I saw Wade rip Tmac. And hassle him in the All Star game.

And prime for prime Wade and Tmac are absolutely the same level of talent. Throw Kobe in there as well. Durant probably too.

IKnowHoops
08-21-2016, 02:32 AM
I saw KG shut TMac down. I will research and find the game. Ill try and find out when I saw Wade rip Tmac. And hassle him in the All Star game.

Here it is.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/nov/02/sports/sp-nba2

http://www.theledger.com/article/20031108/news/311080410

Heediot
08-21-2016, 08:13 AM
Team magic. This team is too mentally sharp to lose. A team with Magic, Bird, and Duncan will win on sheer will want and guts.

Chronz
08-21-2016, 10:29 AM
The way I just read about T-Mac here^^, one would think it's Jordan if the name was not mentioned. Oh and Wade did lock down guys plenty of times at his best and lighted up on the other end.

MJ didn't have that versatility to defend PF's like Dirk and locked them up. I dont believe he did it "plenty", if thats the case you should be able to name a playoff series where he just eliminated guys from the picture.

Chronz
08-21-2016, 11:15 AM
I saw KG shut TMac down. I will research and find the game. Ill try and find out when I saw Wade rip Tmac. And hassle him in the All Star game.

And prime for prime Wade and Tmac are absolutely the same level of talent. Throw Kobe in there as well. Durant probably too.
Yeah he and KG had battles back in the day, not sure what you're trying to get at here but if you're putting KG on Tmac then whos checking Duncan? Bron, lol...... and whos Wade going to try and play that wont just shoot over him?

Im not seeing how they are "absolutely" the same talent level, even Kobe doesn't have Tmacs talent and I dont think his fans would find that insulting, hell IIRC even Kobe himself would agree. The guy is 6"8 with agility+mobility that complimented his guard skills. Just like KG is 7ft with elite mobility, thats talent right there. Wade at 6"4 means you cant use him in as many schemes. Like KG and Tmac used to spearhead their teams zones with them at the middle. Well KG would play that box-1 with him at the top of the key but they had the size to get away with it, it sucked having to see Tmac be the size.

Chronz
08-21-2016, 11:17 AM
Team magic. This team is too mentally sharp to lose. A team with Magic, Bird, and Duncan will win on sheer will want and guts.

Shaq would be the best player on the team, Magic and Bird just have to not get burned and sag the **** off Wade+Bron and funnel them into Shaq+Duncan while forcing them to rely on midrange jumpers from KG+Hakeem. KG is a mediocre post defender, like Wade, he always needed someone to check the big guys for him so I would attack him with Duncan.

Heediot
08-21-2016, 12:31 PM
Shaq would be the best player on the team, Magic and Bird just have to not get burned and sag the **** off Wade+Bron and funnel them into Shaq+Duncan while forcing them to rely on midrange jumpers from KG+Hakeem. KG is a mediocre post defender, like Wade, he always needed someone to check the big guys for him so I would attack him with Duncan.

When the talent is as close as it is, I go with which team I think will perform best in pressure situations. It's hard for me to go against the likes of Magic, Bird and Duncan on the same team.

Yeah Shaq is probably the best individual player on team A.

Magic/TMac can also take either Curry/Wade into the post and cause problems too. But Hakeem, KG and Bron frontcourt is a filthy pnr defense.

There are too many variables and mismatches on both sides for me to analyze who will exploit who, so I go with which team I think will win with guts and heart. It's subjective, but it is what it is.

Chronz
08-21-2016, 02:05 PM
When the talent is as close as it is, I go with which team I think will perform best in pressure situations. It's hard for me to go against the likes of Magic, Bird and Duncan on the same team.

Yeah Shaq is probably the best individual player on team A.

Magic/TMac can also take either Curry/Wade into the post and cause problems too. But Hakeem, KG and Bron frontcourt is a filthy pnr defense.

There are too many variables and mismatches on both sides for me to analyze who will exploit who, so I go with which team I think will win with guts and heart. It's subjective, but it is what it is.

Thats why we're here man. To guess a game. I must admit tho, JB has a way of constructing some great hypothetical matchups. I love how open this poll has been.

lol, please
08-21-2016, 07:24 PM
Team Magic/Tmac/Bird/Duncan/Shaq
PG Magic
SG Tmac
SF Bird
PF Duncan
C Shaq

vs

Team Curry/Wade/Lebron/Garnett/Hakeem
PG Curry
SG Wade
SF Lebron
PF Garnett
C Hakeem

Which team wins in 7?
Bird. Duncan, and Shaq on the same team? I don't think it goes to 6 honestly. Absolute dominance.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

IKnowHoops
08-21-2016, 08:59 PM
Yeah he and KG had battles back in the day, not sure what you're trying to get at here but if you're putting KG on Tmac then whos checking Duncan? Bron, lol...... and whos Wade going to try and play that wont just shoot over him?

Im not seeing how they are "absolutely" the same talent level, even Kobe doesn't have Tmacs talent and I dont think his fans would find that insulting, hell IIRC even Kobe himself would agree. The guy is 6"8 with agility+mobility that complimented his guard skills. Just like KG is 7ft with elite mobility, thats talent right there. Wade at 6"4 means you cant use him in as many schemes. Like KG and Tmac used to spearhead their teams zones with them at the middle. Well KG would play that box-1 with him at the top of the key but they had the size to get away with it, it sucked having to see Tmac be the size.

I can't really say I am trying to get at anything. Just stating facts. I love Tmac. He's on my Bench of my all time team.

PG Lebron/Magic/Curry
SG Jordan/Wade/Kobe
SF Durant/KG/Tmac
PF Drob/Duncan/Barkley
C Shaq/Dream/Kareem

GodsSon
08-21-2016, 11:45 PM
Most dominant player I've witnessed thus far has been Shaq. In his prime, nobody could stop him.

Team 1 for me.

FlashBolt
08-22-2016, 12:30 PM
Most dominant player I've witnessed thus far has been Shaq. In his prime, nobody could stop him.

Team 1 for me.

KG+Hakeem aren't scrubs and Shaq isn't going to be dominating them the way you think he did during the 2000's. Those are all-time great players.

GodsSon
08-22-2016, 05:32 PM
KG+Hakeem aren't scrubs and Shaq isn't going to be dominating them the way you think he did during the 2000's. Those are all-time great players.

Hakeem dominated a young Shaq in the 95 finals, but I give the upper hand to a prime O'Neal.

TD/KG cancel each other out IMO.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2016, 06:03 PM
Bird. Duncan, and Shaq on the same team? I don't think it goes to 6 honestly. Absolute dominance.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

I feel the same way about having Lebron, Curry, Dream. Lebron would be HITTING CURRY FROM ALL ANGLES with passes. Curry would be WET AND WIDE OPEN from 3pt land.

lol, please
08-22-2016, 07:51 PM
I feel the same way about having Lebron, Curry, Dream. Lebron would be HITTING CURRY FROM ALL ANGLES with passes. Curry would be WET AND WIDE OPEN from 3pt land.
And SHAQ would run rampant all over the paint. Bird would be nailing jumpers from everywhere and over anyone. Lebron and Garnett aren't stopping Bird.

I know your response is toungue in cheek here, but mine was dead serious.

A team of which a good percentage of the offensive output is on a "live by the 3, die by the 3" basis, or the team with the most dominant center in the history of the sport, I don't think it would be that close. Both teams can move the ball, can distribute well, I feel team A would have a greater likelyhood of maintaining composure being down in a series or game. You think really, really highly of Lebron, so I kind of assume without reading through this thread that most of your arguments will be based around what you feel is a game changing domainace he can bring, and I of course will always be skeptical and biased in the opposite direction, as well as I have the same borderline blind trust in guys like Bird, Shaq, and Duncan as you would in Lebron, so that's what it ultimately comes down to.

lol, please
08-22-2016, 07:52 PM
Most dominant player I've witnessed thus far has been Shaq. In his prime, nobody could stop him.

Team 1 for me.
x2.

Pretty much was that simple for me as well. You coulda swapped C's here and I woulda chosen the other team just as easily for the same reason.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 12:35 AM
x2.

Pretty much was that simple for me as well. You coulda swapped C's here and I woulda chosen the other team just as easily for the same reason.

Here is my order of peak player impact

1.Lebron
2.Shaq
3.Hakeem
4.Duncan
5.Curry
6.KG
7.Wade
8.Tmac
9.Magic
10.Bird

Advanced Stats back this opinion up.

I think this is an even match, but I think it would be harder to stop Lebron, Curry, and Dream, than it would be to stop Shaq, Bird, Duncan. But it would be 100% impossible to stop either. I think Bron and Dream get more buckets than Shaq and Duncan. As well as facilitate more shots for teammates. Shaq gets the most attention, then Bron, but Bron is 10x the passer that Shaq is. Dream is flat out better than Duncan. And there is no doubt about this. Shaq and Bron are pretty equal when it comes to there total impact on a game. I would take Curry over Bird personally. If you aren't doubling him he kills you from 3 way worse than Bird, and I got over 400 3's in a season to back that up. Then there is Wade and KG vs Tmac and Magic. I'd rather have Prime Wade and Prime KG over Prime Tmac and Prime Magic. Advanced stats would also agree with me here. I'm not saying I am right, but I don't think anyone is right or wrong here.

kdspurman
08-23-2016, 10:26 AM
With Duncan/Shaq in the middle, I could see Lebron struggling to get into his comfort zone (driving and dishing) and forcing him to shoot more, which is something you live with.

And idk that Hakeem "flat out" better than Duncan at all. That's a stretch to me.

TD & Shaq in the post would generate more open looks and passing lanes IMO. Neither of them could be stopped 1 on 1 in the post.

Chronz
08-23-2016, 11:41 AM
With Duncan/Shaq in the middle, I could see Lebron struggling to get into his comfort zone (driving and dishing) and forcing him to shoot more, which is something you live with.

And idk that Hakeem "flat out" better than Duncan at all. That's a stretch to me.

TD & Shaq in the post would generate more open looks and passing lanes IMO. Neither of them could be stopped 1 on 1 in the post.

A big part of the reason the Spurs could contain Shaq better than the Lakers ever could contain Duncan(before Malone at least) was the Twin Towers effect, if Shaq got Duncan on the switch it was still like playing against another Center. KG doesn't provide that for his team and Shaq would eat his skinny as up inside. A simple cross screen gets the mismatch and if they trap, Shaq spots Duncan all day. Bird and Tmac are better shooters than anyone not named Curry to provide the outlet options that TeamII lacks.

It would be a great game but ultimately, I think its one defined by Hakeem and KG being forced to settle for jumpers while Bron and Wade try to prioritize their inside game against the biggest possible wall forming duo in History. On sheer girth alone, Shaq was the master at clogging up the paint.

Personally, peak Shaq beats Hakeem silly and heres why, back when Shaq was a baby, Hakeem D'ed him up better than anyone but even then, the Rockets sent more doubles at Shaq than vice versa AND in 1v1 situations against each other, Shaq was actually more effective than Dream in terms of fg%. That was a baby Shaq, you tack on 40lbs of muscle like it was in 2000 and forget about it, we get a matchup more like the one we got in 99 when Shaq just destroyed a Hakeem who was still an All-NBA quality center.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 01:28 PM
Personally I don't think Magic would be as good in todays NBA.

Duncan and Bird would be tough to beat, but when you have Lebron, KG, Hakeem, in your front court that defense would be deadly. Then you have a natural shooter in Curry in the back court, and Wade in his prime driving to the rim... I don't know if you could stop a team that is so balanced.

If you replace Tmac with Jordan, I think it would be more even.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 01:29 PM
With Duncan/Shaq in the middle, I could see Lebron struggling to get into his comfort zone (driving and dishing) and forcing him to shoot more, which is something you live with.

And idk that Hakeem "flat out" better than Duncan at all. That's a stretch to me.

TD & Shaq in the post would generate more open looks and passing lanes IMO. Neither of them could be stopped 1 on 1 in the post.

Hakeem over Shaq
Duncan over KG

the front court would be a wash.

But I take Curry over Magic in todays game, Lebron over bird, and Wade over Tmac.

smith&wesson
08-23-2016, 01:30 PM
And SHAQ would run rampant all over the paint. Bird would be nailing jumpers from everywhere and over anyone. Lebron and Garnett aren't stopping Bird.

I know your response is toungue in cheek here, but mine was dead serious.

A team of which a good percentage of the offensive output is on a "live by the 3, die by the 3" basis, or the team with the most dominant center in the history of the sport, I don't think it would be that close. Both teams can move the ball, can distribute well, I feel team A would have a greater likelyhood of maintaining composure being down in a series or game. You think really, really highly of Lebron, so I kind of assume without reading through this thread that most of your arguments will be based around what you feel is a game changing domainace he can bring, and I of course will always be skeptical and biased in the opposite direction, as well as I have the same borderline blind trust in guys like Bird, Shaq, and Duncan as you would in Lebron, so that's what it ultimately comes down to.

Hakeem was better than Shaq.. believe it or not.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 06:01 PM
Hakeem was better than Shaq.. believe it or not.

I, don't really agree with this...against the field, I take Shaq all day...but head to head, Hakeem was one of about 3 people who could play him even or even out play him on any given day. That's why this matchup is such a good one. Shaq is not going to be the Shaq everyone fears in this matchup. In this matchup he is a guy that has to work his tail off just to break even.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 06:05 PM
In this game Lebron can get into the paint whenever he wants. Now he won't be able to score in the paint whenever he wants but once he draws Shaq and Duncan to him, Hakeem and KG are going to get easy dumpoffs for dunks or oops. And Prime Lebron is the most savage player ever on a fast break. On every miss you outlet it to a streaking Lebron and he is either going to score or get fouled, even against the best players of all time, he is way to much speed, power and athetic ability to stop on a fast break.

Chronz
08-23-2016, 07:10 PM
In this game Lebron can get into the paint whenever he wants. Now he won't be able to score in the paint whenever he wants but once he draws Shaq and Duncan to him, Hakeem and KG are going to get easy dumpoffs for dunks or oops. And Prime Lebron is the most savage player ever on a fast break. On every miss you outlet it to a streaking Lebron and he is either going to score or get fouled, even against the best players of all time, he is way to much speed, power and athetic ability to stop on a fast break.
What easy dump offs, they WANT Bron trying to score in the paint over a wall of defenders, its how hes historically struggled. You give him a big cushion, play the **** off Wade and live off the mid range jumpers that Bron will provide his bigs, hes definitely not giving them dump offs because there would be no reason to leave them, the more bodies in the paint the more clogged it is, which is exactly the way they would want it. Bron would want his bigs here to evacuate the paint for his rim attacks. The attention he draws will lead to outlet jumpers. Dumpoffs are what Tmac will create because you actually have to respect his jumper, hes got a midget on him and he has the far more dominant bigs to dump it off to.


I also see them getting CRUSHED on the glass so less transition chances in comparison. Bron is the best in the open court, but the opposition are no slouches on that front. Shaq is by far the most unstoppable player here and Duncan prolly right behind him. Have you ever seen either of them have series as bad as Bron has had?

6man
08-23-2016, 09:48 PM
I'm taking team LeBron. Their perimeter players are much better in my opinion. Magics defense isn't good, Wade is much better than T-Mac who couldn't win a series anyways, LeBron is better than Bird, Duncan and Shaq have the advantage down low but I don't think it's huge.

LeBron was a 40%+ 3 point shooter at his peak but I think the playing off of someone is pretty overrated. If that's all you had to do don't you think somebody would've been able to stop LeBron and Wade? T-Mac is definitely the weakest link in this one.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 10:30 PM
What easy dump offs, they WANT Bron trying to score in the paint over a wall of defenders, its how hes historically struggled. You give him a big cushion, play the **** off Wade and live off the mid range jumpers that Bron will provide his bigs, hes definitely not giving them dump offs because there would be no reason to leave them, the more bodies in the paint the more clogged it is, which is exactly the way they would want it. Bron would want his bigs here to evacuate the paint for his rim attacks. The attention he draws will lead to outlet jumpers. Dumpoffs are what Tmac will create because you actually have to respect his jumper, hes got a midget on him and he has the far more dominant bigs to dump it off to.


I also see them getting CRUSHED on the glass so less transition chances in comparison. Bron is the best in the open court, but the opposition are no slouches on that front. Shaq is by far the most unstoppable player here and Duncan prolly right behind him. Have you ever seen either of them have series as bad as Bron has had?

Tim is not more unstoppable than Bron. He doesn't effect the game in nearly as many ways as Bron. Both he and Shaq need someone to pass them the ball. Lets not act like Bron can't make 8 footers. Bron can decide in the air whether to shoot or pass it. He can go to the hole strong and dump it off once Shaq and or Duncan is in the air trying to contest his shot. If they don't go air born than he can just dunk it. Tracy isn't getting to whole as much as Bron is. If he could then he'd be giving 42pts a game. And KG can make life very difficult for Tmac and Bron can guard Duncan as good as KG could anyway, maybe better. Bron could give Duncan the same defense that a prime Rodman could of. Shaq in general is the most dominant, but playing against a prime Hakeem he is not. He may get outplayed from game to game, especially when he is going to have to pay so much attention to Lebron. Nobody is going to guard Lebron one on one. Prime Hakeem will battle with Shaq while Lebron abuses whoever is on him. There is nobody on the court that is going to check a prime Wade either. Tmac will make him work no doubt, but Tmac is going to have the hardest time of any player on the court getting buckets with prime KG on him. Defensively the Lebron team is superior by a good margin. Offensively its close to a draw. And KG getting wide open 12 foot jumpers all day. LOL. Thats easier than a free throw. Duncan and Shaq aren't going to be able to thwart Lebron without giving up major points to the two hall of famers that actually can shoot much better than they can.

kdspurman
08-23-2016, 10:34 PM
^Duncan most certainly was as unstoppable as LeBron, maybe more, due to his counter moves he had for every kind of defense saw. He was an absolute monster, and could handle the rock.

If the lane isn't available for LeBron and it's a slow paced game, he is relegated to more of a shooter. That's definitely not a strong suit of his

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 10:42 PM
^Duncan most certainly was as unstoppable as LeBron, maybe more, due to his counter moves he had for every kind of defense saw. He was an absolute monster, and could handle the rock.

If the lane isn't available for LeBron and it's a slow paced game, he is relegated to more of a shooter. That's definitely not a strong suit of his

No he wasn't. He was a beast no doubt, but he played even with KG when they played so I'm not to worried. Again Lebron is everywhere, and can ball from everywhere. Shaq and Duncan are only dominant in the paint. And they aren't going to create for other players the way Bron is. Lebron can be whatever a team needs him to be. Shaq and Duncan are going to be dominant, but they are who they are. They are not chameleons.

6man
08-23-2016, 10:45 PM
Here is my order of peak player impact

1.Lebron
2.Shaq
3.Hakeem
4.Duncan
5.Curry
6.KG
7.Wade
8.Tmac
9.Magic
10.Bird

Advanced Stats back this opinion up.

I think this is an even match, but I think it would be harder to stop Lebron, Curry, and Dream, than it would be to stop Shaq, Bird, Duncan. But it would be 100% impossible to stop either. I think Bron and Dream get more buckets than Shaq and Duncan. As well as facilitate more shots for teammates. Shaq gets the most attention, then Bron, but Bron is 10x the passer that Shaq is. Dream is flat out better than Duncan. And there is no doubt about this. Shaq and Bron are pretty equal when it comes to there total impact on a game. I would take Curry over Bird personally. If you aren't doubling him he kills you from 3 way worse than Bird, and I got over 400 3's in a season to back that up. Then there is Wade and KG vs Tmac and Magic. I'd rather have Prime Wade and Prime KG over Prime Tmac and Prime Magic. Advanced stats would also agree with me here. I'm not saying I am right, but I don't think anyone is right or wrong here.

Pretty good list. I would go:

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Duncan
5. Wade
6. KG
7. Curry
8. Bird
9. Magic
10. T-Mac

While T-Mac may have had a pretty good peak he couldn't win a playoff series, even with a very good Rockets team. I base mine on taking the numbers and then being able to lead your team to success in the playoffs.

6man
08-23-2016, 10:47 PM
No he wasn't. He was a beast no doubt, but he played even with KG when they played so I'm not to worried. Again Lebron is everywhere, and can ball from everywhere. Shaq and Duncan are only dominant in the paint. And they aren't going to create for other players the way Bron is. Lebron can be whatever a team needs him to be. Shaq and Duncan are going to be dominant, but they are who they are. They are not chameleons.

2012-2013 LeBron probably has an argument as the most dominant player ever.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 10:48 PM
The best playoff WS/48 in this game is Lebron, next is Hakeem. The next guy isn't close

The best PER playoff in this game is Hakeem, next is Lebron. The next guy isn't close

Chronic if your going to bring up Drob's deficiencies in the playoffs, then its gotta work both ways.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2016, 10:51 PM
Pretty good list. I would go:

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Duncan
5. Wade
6. KG
7. Curry
8. Bird
9. Magic
10. T-Mac

While T-Mac may have had a pretty good peak he couldn't win a playoff series, even with a very good Rockets team. I base mine on taking the numbers and then being able to lead your team to success in the playoffs.

Good point, one that Chronz should also respect if he's going to keep any semblance of consistency.

lol, please
08-23-2016, 11:36 PM
What easy dump offs, they WANT Bron trying to score in the paint over a wall of defenders, its how hes historically struggled. You give him a big cushion, play the **** off Wade and live off the mid range jumpers that Bron will provide his bigs, hes definitely not giving them dump offs because there would be no reason to leave them, the more bodies in the paint the more clogged it is, which is exactly the way they would want it. Bron would want his bigs here to evacuate the paint for his rim attacks. The attention he draws will lead to outlet jumpers. Dumpoffs are what Tmac will create because you actually have to respect his jumper, hes got a midget on him and he has the far more dominant bigs to dump it off to.


I also see them getting CRUSHED on the glass so less transition chances in comparison. Bron is the best in the open court, but the opposition are no slouches on that front. Shaq is by far the most unstoppable player here and Duncan prolly right behind him. Have you ever seen either of them have series as bad as Bron has had?

Well said. Great post.

:clap:

Chronz
08-23-2016, 11:52 PM
The best playoff WS/48 in this game is Lebron, next is Hakeem. The next guy isn't close

The best PER playoff in this game is Hakeem, next is Lebron. The next guy isn't close

Chronic if your going to bring up Drob's deficiencies in the playoffs, then its gotta work both ways.

Those are the unadjusted numbers tho, they dont take into account the quality of the competition. Playoff PER is calculated abit differently too. I like to investigate each individual player separately. We should all identify the years in which we're taking these players.

Chronz
08-24-2016, 12:19 AM
Tim is not more unstoppable than Bron.
Then why has no one stopped him to the degree that they have Bron has in his series losses? I admit its possible hes harder to stop, we're trying to nitpick here and I've seen Bron contained to a higher degree.


He doesn't effect the game in nearly as many ways as Bron. Both he and Shaq need someone to pass them the ball. Lets not act like Bron can't make 8 footers. Bron can decide in the air whether to shoot or pass it. He can go to the hole strong and dump it off once Shaq and or Duncan is in the air trying to contest his shot.
You make it sound hard to find a way to get the ball into Shaq or Duncan when you have 3 team oriented perimeter players looking for them. Like having the ball in his hands more didn't make Kobe Bryant more valuable than Shaq for example.


If they don't go air born than he can just dunk it. Tracy isn't getting to whole as much as Bron is. If he could then he'd be giving 42pts a game.
Him not having to get to the hole to score is a positive for a team featuring so many great interior players. You force Bron into those shots and you get a slightly less productive player IMO and that small overlap might be all it takes to win this game.


And KG can make life very difficult for Tmac and Bron can guard Duncan as good as KG could anyway, maybe better.
Thats the most laughable argument I've ever seen, there is ZERO chance that Bron can guard Duncan when he couldn't guard an old Dirk and Duncan in their finals.


Bron could give Duncan the same defense that a prime Rodman could of.
Not a chance, if he could he wouldn't have forced poor Battier to end his career by having to defend the likes of David West. Facts are, Bron has ALWAYS shied away from playing the 4 defensively, it stunted his teams growth in Cleveland and for awhile in Miami. He would utterly fail trying to defend prime Duncan IMO.


Shaq in general is the most dominant, but playing against a prime Hakeem he is not.
Except that he is.


He may get outplayed from game to game, especially when he is going to have to pay so much attention to Lebron. Nobody is going to guard Lebron one on one. Prime Hakeem will battle with Shaq while Lebron abuses whoever is on him. There is nobody on the court that is going to check a prime Wade either. Tmac will make him work no doubt, but Tmac is going to have the hardest time of any player on the court getting buckets with prime KG on him.
Nah, Tmac will feast on the perimeter and if KG is on him hes making the game easy for whoever is not defending the bigs, like who is Wade guarding in this switch?
Besides I dont buy he will have it the hardest anyways, Tmac and KG was not a 1 sided affair, Tmac lit his *** up plenty of times, KG wont have the luxury of playing the box-1 zone that popularized his stay in Minny, hes going to need to defend Duncan, which is something he always shied away from. Hakeem+KG is actually easier than some of the combinations Shaq has faced in his career. Bron and Wade as helpers obviously change things but Larry Bird was the master trapper, ask Hakeem about it and he'll tell you the same.


Defensively the Lebron team is superior by a good margin. Offensively its close to a draw.
Its definitely possible but its also about how they all mesh together and tbf, Curry is a matchup they can exploit a variety of ways, every single one of their players have a post game and/or can shoot over the top of him with ease. Regardless of what you say, the BIGGEST skillset overlap comes from Wade-Bron. So them being on the same team isn't as scary to me in this matchup.


And KG getting wide open 12 foot jumpers all day. LOL. Thats easier than a free throw.
I dont object to the idea that its a bad proposition, only that its their best chance at slowing down Bron in victory. And you really need to stop exaggerating, its literally not easier than a free throw. Its far less efficient from KG lifetime. When KG is at his best hes more of a post player and creating for the team, Bron-Wade rob him of much of that job.


Duncan and Shaq aren't going to be able to thwart Lebron without giving up major points to the two hall of famers that actually can shoot much better than they can.

KG especially, but yes that is the risk assessment you must make. Is it worthwhile to give up a 50% shot to prevent Bron's 70% shot attempt in the paint? I think so and you gotta hope the variance is high enough to sway a few games. And them shooting better is irrelevant, you wont see Shaq taking jumpers thats for sure. The primary option would be to get him the ball inside and play off that action, you cant do that with Hakeem and KG because their outlet options are inferior shooters and their counterparts are better suited to defend them.

Chronz
08-24-2016, 12:27 AM
While T-Mac may have had a pretty good peak he couldn't win a playoff series, even with a very good Rockets team. I base mine on taking the numbers and then being able to lead your team to success in the playoffs.
That doesn't make any sense. Most associate Tmac's peak with his Orlando days and you point to Houston? Well, personally it depends on what year you're talking about but by the time the Rockets had a "very good" team, Tmac was no longer in his superstar form.

Like year 1 in Houston was the closest to Tmac's peak form and he had arguably his greatest playoff series as he clamped down on Dirk while posting incredible lines. But that was not a very good Rockets team, it was an injured team that had lost its starting PF, this after having traded away the backup PF earlier, that was a baby Yao who had yet to truly enforce his will on the game with David Wesley and Bob Sura in the backcourt against a powerhouse in Dallas. And that was Tmac's BEST team at his peak, thats how dire his situation was in a stacked Western Conference.

Of all the players on this list, Tmac had BY FAR the worst support at his apex and when guys like Wade had similar support, they weren't as productive come playoff time whilst losing in the first round. I care more about how you play rather than if your team was good enough to get your further.

JAZZNC
08-24-2016, 09:11 AM
Pretty good list. I would go:

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Duncan
5. Wade
6. KG
7. Curry
8. Bird
9. Magic
10. T-Mac

While T-Mac may have had a pretty good peak he couldn't win a playoff series, even with a very good Rockets team. I base mine on taking the numbers and then being able to lead your team to success in the playoffs.
Ok, then how exactly is Bird and Magic behind KG and Wade? And Duncan behind Hakeem? Because they had the numbers and WAY more team success. So I really don't get your point at all. I feel like KG, Wade, and Curry are getting chronically overrated in this thread and Bird, Magic, and Duncan are being severely underrated. You guys must be young. KG was never capable of the dominance of Bird. T-Mac is getting killed for not winning a series (although he put up incredible numbers in the playoffs) while people make out like KG' s teams did anything other than get stomped until he was given two hall of fame players in their prime.

kdspurman
08-24-2016, 09:36 AM
No he wasn't. He was a beast no doubt, but he played even with KG when they played so I'm not to worried. Again Lebron is everywhere, and can ball from everywhere. Shaq and Duncan are only dominant in the paint. And they aren't going to create for other players the way Bron is. Lebron can be whatever a team needs him to be. Shaq and Duncan are going to be dominant, but they are who they are. They are not chameleons.

Chronz pretty much replied and said most of what I would have... We've seen different strategies work and successfully slow down Lebron on the biggest stages. We haven't seen that with TD, even as he got older. Lebron physically is built in a way where he should be more unstoppable. But it didn't always pan out that way.

And playing even with KG doesn't mean much, I've seen his numbers dip a bit come playoff time.

BTW, Shaq didn't need to be a chameleon, you knew what he was going to do and there was nothing you could do to stop him.

kdspurman
08-24-2016, 09:45 AM
A big part of the reason the Spurs could contain Shaq better than the Lakers ever could contain Duncan(before Malone at least) was the Twin Towers effect, if Shaq got Duncan on the switch it was still like playing against another Center. KG doesn't provide that for his team and Shaq would eat his skinny as up inside. A simple cross screen gets the mismatch and if they trap, Shaq spots Duncan all day. Bird and Tmac are better shooters than anyone not named Curry to provide the outlet options that TeamII lacks.

It would be a great game but ultimately, I think its one defined by Hakeem and KG being forced to settle for jumpers while Bron and Wade try to prioritize their inside game against the biggest possible wall forming duo in History. On sheer girth alone, Shaq was the master at clogging up the paint.

Personally, peak Shaq beats Hakeem silly and heres why, back when Shaq was a baby, Hakeem D'ed him up better than anyone but even then, the Rockets sent more doubles at Shaq than vice versa AND in 1v1 situations against each other, Shaq was actually more effective than Dream in terms of fg%. That was a baby Shaq, you tack on 40lbs of muscle like it was in 2000 and forget about it, we get a matchup more like the one we got in 99 when Shaq just destroyed a Hakeem who was still an All-NBA quality center.

Yea, and even then he was a nightmare to deal with haha.

But I agree about Shaq being a different animal. Using that 1 series as some sort of barometer doesn't provide a clear picture. I think he and Duncan would generate more open looks, because you'd have to start doubling eventually.

Heediot
08-24-2016, 12:03 PM
Replace Magic with Cp3 and Wade with Ray Allen and things would be more interesting in my opinion. Both teams become more balanced.

IKnowHoops
08-24-2016, 12:58 PM
Chronz pretty much replied and said most of what I would have... We've seen different strategies work and successfully slow down Lebron on the biggest stages. We haven't seen that with TD, even as he got older. Lebron physically is built in a way where he should be more unstoppable. But it didn't always pan out that way.

And playing even with KG doesn't mean much, I've seen his numbers dip a bit come playoff time.

BTW, Shaq didn't need to be a chameleon, you knew what he was going to do and there was nothing you could do to stop him.

On this topic, Lebron has had far more inferior teams, and inferior coaching, and it has been easier to key in on him than it has for Shaq and Tim.

Point two is, if your going to focus on the times he was slowed, then you have to look at the times he has exploded. And he has had exploded to a degree that Duncan has not. His peak is definitely higher, and his degree of domination has been higher.

Chronz this is to you too. You can cherry pick his games he has been slowed and then forget he has exploded to a higher degree than either Shaq or Duncan as well. Just as my PER and WS48 leader board had shown. That's not being consistent.

IKnowHoops
08-24-2016, 01:00 PM
Those are the unadjusted numbers tho, they dont take into account the quality of the competition. Playoff PER is calculated abit differently too. I like to investigate each individual player separately. We should all identify the years in which we're taking these players.

The exact same thing can be said for the games in which Lebron has been slown. We can't just look at the games he was worse, and not look at the games he was better. Common.

Hawkeye15
08-24-2016, 01:16 PM
Chronz pretty much replied and said most of what I would have... We've seen different strategies work and successfully slow down Lebron on the biggest stages. We haven't seen that with TD, even as he got older. Lebron physically is built in a way where he should be more unstoppable. But it didn't always pan out that way.

And playing even with KG doesn't mean much, I've seen his numbers dip a bit come playoff time.

BTW, Shaq didn't need to be a chameleon, you knew what he was going to do and there was nothing you could do to stop him.

Duncan also played with multiple players that could hit the 3, or put it on the deck and create shots. That means something. You really couldn't send help at Duncan until he was in the process of his move, he never really dealt with the defensive attention that someone like Shaq did for instance.

FlashBolt
08-24-2016, 01:46 PM
Are we really going to compare LeBron's 2007/2013/2014 Finals performances as evidence that he can't play against Tim Duncan? Yes, we've seen what happens when LeBron has inferior teams and has to go past Kawhi Leonard (again, is he the best defender or not? You guys give Tim Duncan the credit but then claim Kawhi is the one stopping LeBron as well?) I'm a tad bit confused on how you guys are judging these scenarios because Shaq was great... but if you think he's dominating Hakeem because he could dominate Vlade Divac, you are OUT OF YOUR MIND. And KG isn't a slouch either. Duncan has had the benefit of having a great system and players around him for 90% of his career. Again, are we not giving Pop any credit for Duncan's success? I have zero doubt Spurs will be a great team again this season with or without Duncan. That is Pop's doing. We're always giving Duncan way too much credit for winning but never any fault when he loses. It's getting quite irritating. Yes, he's great. He's an athlete who doesn't showboat. GREAT, GOOD STUFF. There's really no answer to this question. These are ten of the greatest players in the world (with six of them being in the top ten) so I'm not debating any of that. Just find it really concerning that some arguments are being made against one guy but not at the expense of another.

kdspurman
08-24-2016, 02:39 PM
Duncan also played with multiple players that could hit the 3, or put it on the deck and create shots. That means something. You really couldn't send help at Duncan until he was in the process of his move, he never really dealt with the defensive attention that someone like Shaq did for instance.

At times yes, but if we take Duncan's 03 year and KG's 04 year for example, they both had guys around them capable of knocking down the 3. KG maybe even had better shooters arguably.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2004.html

This is where Duncan needing to be doubled and KG not so much matters. KG is more like a face up guy, couple jab steps and either drive by or take the shot. He wasn't backing guys and getting deep into the paint like TD did, and forcing the help to come.

And he def did get the attention Shaq did early on in his career.

kdspurman
08-24-2016, 02:39 PM
Are we really going to compare LeBron's 2007/2013/2014 Finals performances as evidence that he can't play against Tim Duncan? Yes, we've seen what happens when LeBron has inferior teams and has to go past Kawhi Leonard (again, is he the best defender or not? You guys give Tim Duncan the credit but then claim Kawhi is the one stopping LeBron as well?) I'm a tad bit confused on how you guys are judging these scenarios because Shaq was great... but if you think he's dominating Hakeem because he could dominate Vlade Divac, you are OUT OF YOUR MIND. And KG isn't a slouch either. Duncan has had the benefit of having a great system and players around him for 90% of his career. Again, are we not giving Pop any credit for Duncan's success? I have zero doubt Spurs will be a great team again this season with or without Duncan. That is Pop's doing. We're always giving Duncan way too much credit for winning but never any fault when he loses. It's getting quite irritating. Yes, he's great. He's an athlete who doesn't showboat. GREAT, GOOD STUFF. There's really no answer to this question. These are ten of the greatest players in the world (with six of them being in the top ten) so I'm not debating any of that. Just find it really concerning that some arguments are being made against one guy but not at the expense of another.

Who did that?

6man
08-24-2016, 02:59 PM
Ok, then how exactly is Bird and Magic behind KG and Wade? And Duncan behind Hakeem? Because they had the numbers and WAY more team success. So I really don't get your point at all. I feel like KG, Wade, and Curry are getting chronically overrated in this thread and Bird, Magic, and Duncan are being severely underrated. You guys must be young. KG was never capable of the dominance of Bird. T-Mac is getting killed for not winning a series (although he put up incredible numbers in the playoffs) while people make out like KG' s teams did anything other than get stomped until he was given two hall of fame players in their prime.

Because neither could play both sides of the ball like Wade and KG and ive seen Wade take over a series that's maybe only Jordan and LeBron can compare too.

As for tmac, if you don't win anything I think you take a big hit. If he's really comparable to anyone else ok these teams then he would've at least won 1 playoff series. He even won 22 games straight in a season and couldn't win a playoff series so I don't know why he's being compared to guys that knew how to win. I will say it would've been nice for him and VC to play out their careers in Toronto.

Shlumpledink
08-24-2016, 04:08 PM
Give me the team with the 3 guys that can guard any position and the SG who plays some of the best help defense we've seen from that position. You hope those 4 can make up for the defensive mismatch for whoever Curry has to guard. I like the switching capabilities of team b, I think they can play some great defense and their offense will still be good too.

Hawkeye15
08-24-2016, 05:36 PM
At times yes, but if we take Duncan's 03 year and KG's 04 year for example, they both had guys around them capable of knocking down the 3. KG maybe even had better shooters arguably.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2004.html

This is where Duncan needing to be doubled and KG not so much matters. KG is more like a face up guy, couple jab steps and either drive by or take the shot. He wasn't backing guys and getting deep into the paint like TD did, and forcing the help to come.

And he def did get the attention Shaq did early on in his career.

I was referring more to the fact that you said Duncan may have been more unstoppable offensively than LeBron. I disagree, LeBron was the offense for many of his teams.

At any point in LeBron's career, he had to be THE best player on the floor at all times for his team to win a chip. Tim, and ****, almost nobody in history, was given that burden.


As for KG/Duncan, it took me a long time, but a handful of years ago, I agreed that Duncan is just flat out the superior player between the two. Growing up a Wolves fan, I was convinced that if you flipped them, both have the other's results. I don't think the Spurs win in 03' with Garnett, and while I don't think their success falls much, I do think the Wolves success would have been better with Duncan over that time span.

kdspurman
08-24-2016, 06:14 PM
I was referring more to the fact that you said Duncan may have been more unstoppable offensively than LeBron. I disagree, LeBron was the offense for many of his teams.

At any point in LeBron's career, he had to be THE best player on the floor at all times for his team to win a chip. Tim, and ****, almost nobody in history, was given that burden.


As for KG/Duncan, it took me a long time, but a handful of years ago, I agreed that Duncan is just flat out the superior player between the two. Growing up a Wolves fan, I was convinced that if you flipped them, both have the other's results. I don't think the Spurs win in 03' with Garnett, and while I don't think their success falls much, I do think the Wolves success would have been better with Duncan over that time span.

Ah, my bad. Figured you were referring to the KG part. Tim had that border a bit early on, but people see certain names on the team discounting the fact they were either old or very young/raw. But he's easier to build around being a 2 way dominant big.


But even still, even with Miami you saw teams successfully stop or make lebron less effective. You didn't see that with Tim at his best. You couldn't take 1 move away and force him to do something he didn't want, cause he was always ready with a counter move. Early on, he didn't handle double teams well, but he picked that up quickly and became a great passers-by.

So LeBron is more of an athletic freak, faster, etc... but teams have successfully slowed him. Pop and the Spurs gave him all the space in the world in 2013, and he struggled adjusting to that. Not to mention the Mavs series. For me,on the biggest stages, TD was more unstoppable.

6man
08-24-2016, 07:25 PM
Ah, my bad. Figured you were referring to the KG part. Tim had that border a bit early on, but people see certain names on the team discounting the fact they were either old or very young/raw. But he's easier to build around being a 2 way dominant big.


But even still, even with Miami you saw teams successfully stop or make lebron less effective. You didn't see that with Tim at his best. You couldn't take 1 move away and force him to do something he didn't want, cause he was always ready with a counter move. Early on, he didn't handle double teams well, but he picked that up quickly and became a great passers-by.

So LeBron is more of an athletic freak, faster, etc... but teams have successfully slowed him. Pop and the Spurs gave him all the space in the world in 2013, and he struggled adjusting to that. Not to mention the Mavs series. For me,on the biggest stages, TD was more unstoppable.

While they did give LeBron and Wade space they both came up huge. Wade played pretty well for being injured and LeBron dominated and the legends came up huge in game 7 as they always should if they want to be considered at a very high all time level and they won the championship. I think I'm in the minority here but I believe the playing off of someone argument is very overrated when you're talking about guys at this level.

2014 the Spurs were ridiculously hot and played like their lives depended on it. LeBron still played pretty great though and it looked like Wades career might've been coming to an end with how his knees were holding up but he seems to be fine now. (Made me hate my life in the ECSF)

That 2013 finals, or at least the last few games, were some of the best I've ever seen.

LakersEaglesLA
08-24-2016, 08:34 PM
Team Magic.. ..any team with Magic and Bird I would Never pick against!

Chronz
08-25-2016, 10:35 AM
Because neither could play both sides of the ball like Wade and KG and ive seen Wade take over a series that's maybe only Jordan and LeBron can compare too.

As for tmac, if you don't win anything I think you take a big hit. If he's really comparable to anyone else ok these teams then he would've at least won 1 playoff series. He even won 22 games straight in a season and couldn't win a playoff series so I don't know why he's being compared to guys that knew how to win. I will say it would've been nice for him and VC to play out their careers in Toronto.

LOL, that was a significantly hobbled Tmac who had to play without Yao and without his starting PG for 2 games and hes suppose to beat the Jazz? A Jazz team with far more talent? Why should he do that when this is a game where the best player can miss the playoffs. Havent we seen enough all-time greats lose in R.1 when they lacked teammates.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 10:37 AM
Give me the team with the 3 guys that can guard any position and the SG who plays some of the best help defense we've seen from that position. You hope those 4 can make up for the defensive mismatch for whoever Curry has to guard. I like the switching capabilities of team b, I think they can play some great defense and their offense will still be good too.

They cant guard any position, KG cant even guard his own position in this comp. Shaq is gonna eat this undersized frontcourt up. KG hates checking Duncan. Wade is a midget who Tmac would easily shoot over

Chronz
08-25-2016, 10:39 AM
I was referring more to the fact that you said Duncan may have been more unstoppable offensively than LeBron. I disagree, LeBron was the offense for many of his teams.

At any point in LeBron's career, he had to be THE best player on the floor at all times for his team to win a chip. Tim, and ****, almost nobody in history, was given that burden.


As for KG/Duncan, it took me a long time, but a handful of years ago, I agreed that Duncan is just flat out the superior player between the two. Growing up a Wolves fan, I was convinced that if you flipped them, both have the other's results. I don't think the Spurs win in 03' with Garnett, and while I don't think their success falls much, I do think the Wolves success would have been better with Duncan over that time span.

We can disagree until the cows come home, when have either Shaq or Duncan been as successfully contained as Bron has in his playoff defeats?

Chronz
08-25-2016, 10:41 AM
Duncan also played with multiple players that could hit the 3, or put it on the deck and create shots. That means something. You really couldn't send help at Duncan until he was in the process of his move, he never really dealt with the defensive attention that someone like Shaq did for instance.

The talent argument dies when you realize Duncan won despite not having the best talent. Who the hell were these players in 03 for example? Stephen Jackson? LOL

Chronz
08-25-2016, 10:48 AM
The exact same thing can be said for the games in which Lebron has been slown. We can't just look at the games he was worse, and not look at the games he was better. Common.
Thats the thing, when you look at their careers we see that they were better more often and slowed down to a lesser degree. Again, when have Duncan and Shaq ever looked as mortal as Bron has against a great majority of his losses. Him having the ball more is actually a detriment to your team IMO.

FlashBolt
08-25-2016, 11:56 AM
Thats the thing, when you look at their careers we see that they were better more often and slowed down to a lesser degree. Again, when have Duncan and Shaq ever looked as mortal as Bron has against a great majority of his losses. Him having the ball more is actually a detriment to your team IMO.

They don't even play the same positions... When has Shaq ever dominated the game at all facets like Bron did?

Chronz
08-25-2016, 12:09 PM
They don't even play the same positions... When has Shaq ever dominated the game at all facets like Bron did?
They dont even play the same positions? What a sad attempt from you, are you now going to admit you cant rank/assess a players all-time worth unless they play the same position? LMFAO, damn, you really have nothing to argue huh?

Am I suppose to care about arbitrary skillsets now? I dont care if Bron has to dominate the ball, Shaq scoring, defending and rebounding to a higher degree offsets any aesthetic value you prioritize. Unless you can tell me why Bron struggling to sustain his production is somehow a positive, I will continue to KNOW these guys were far less containable than Bron. A guy who you simply have to sag way the **** off of in order to get results that hamper the rest of the team. You cant sag off Shaq cuz he stays his *** in the post. Bron is a PERIMETER player whom you can totally disrespect on the perimeter and to make matters worse, his partner on the perimeter is yet another guy whos jumper you dont have to respect. Ask post players if they like having guys who cant shoot LMFAO

Hawkeye15
08-25-2016, 12:15 PM
Ah, my bad. Figured you were referring to the KG part. Tim had that border a bit early on, but people see certain names on the team discounting the fact they were either old or very young/raw. But he's easier to build around being a 2 way dominant big.

But even still, even with Miami you saw teams successfully stop or make lebron less effective. You didn't see that with Tim at his best. You couldn't take 1 move away and force him to do something he didn't want, cause he was always ready with a counter move. Early on, he didn't handle double teams well, but he picked that up quickly and became a great passers-by.

So LeBron is more of an athletic freak, faster, etc... but teams have successfully slowed him. Pop and the Spurs gave him all the space in the world in 2013, and he struggled adjusting to that. Not to mention the Mavs series. For me,on the biggest stages, TD was more unstoppable.

agreed.

And LeBron, you had to wall him up. He rarely had teammates that would step up in Cleveland, even his Miami teams were too perimeter oriented for my taste, but that is his desired build, so be it.

I think LeBron passes Timmy on the all time rankings, personally.

Hawkeye15
08-25-2016, 12:18 PM
We can disagree until the cows come home, when have either Shaq or Duncan been as successfully contained as Bron has in his playoff defeats?

They haven't really, but we also can't ignore that Tim won his last chip without even needing to be a stud, and that outside 03', his chips had players where you paid dearly for walling up around him.

Shaq couldn't be stopped until age did it for him.

Hawkeye15
08-25-2016, 12:19 PM
They cant guard any position, KG cant even guard his own position in this comp. Shaq is gonna eat this undersized frontcourt up. KG hates checking Duncan. Wade is a midget who Tmac would easily shoot over

I generally refer to the 03' chip as Duncan't most impressive. He had his least amount of help in a landslide.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 12:23 PM
agreed.

And LeBron, you had to wall him up. He rarely had teammates that would step up in Cleveland, even his Miami teams were too perimeter oriented for my taste, but that is his desired build, so be it.

I think LeBron passes Timmy on the all time rankings, personally.

Thats kind of sad tho, hes not a bigman, hes not a PF-C where you can just dismiss his lack of perimeter dominance.

Like Flash brings up all-around skillsets but why would that matter if these guys are having superior series? Far more productive, FAR greater defensive impact.

Curry- Liability against these players
Wade- Liability against the MUCH taller Tmac.
Bron - Not a liability but definitely not switching onto Duncan/Shaq here so we can stop that defensive versatility BS.
KG - Liability vs Duncan, as a TWolves fan, you should know how often he wanted his centers to defend KG. Hell, poor Ervin Johnson was overmatched yet he was invaluable because he kept KG off a real big man
Hakeem at 6-10 couldnt handle baby Shaq 1v1, imagine a MUCH stronger Shaq with greater defensive ability.

This is honestly not that close, Bron and Wade represent the worst shooting partnership and it totally stunts KG/Hakeems post game. Remember how badly KG played in the post when he had Rondo on the court, yet when Rondo was out, his post game suddenly came to life. Feeding KG nothing but mid range jumpers is not bringing out the best in him. Thats what this comes down to, Bird-Tmac-Magic ALWAYS got the best out of their post players. This team works if you get rid of Wade and replace him with someone who doesn't play exactly how Bron plays.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 12:26 PM
They haven't really, but we also can't ignore that Tim won his last chip without even needing to be a stud, and that outside 03', his chips had players where you paid dearly for walling up around him.

Shaq couldn't be stopped until age did it for him.

Nobody is using Duncan from this stage of his career so its completely irrelevant. Bron on the other hand struggling to defend an old version of Duncan only shows us how utterly incapable he would be at his apex.

I mean, when people start pretending Bron could play defense on a Rodman level, I begin to question just how honest we're being here. If we're gonna exaggerate to that degree then we can exaggerate on Bron-Wade being a horrible mix together in comparison to these players

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 01:09 PM
They cant guard any position, KG cant even guard his own position in this comp. Shaq is gonna eat this undersized frontcourt up. KG hates checking Duncan. Wade is a midget who Tmac would easily shoot over

What? In there head to heads in the playoffs, they played even, and that with KG having to contend with Drob as well. Where are you getting this from?

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 01:11 PM
Thats the thing, when you look at their careers we see that they were better more often and slowed down to a lesser degree. Again, when have Duncan and Shaq ever looked as mortal as Bron has against a great majority of his losses. Him having the ball more is actually a detriment to your team IMO.

Actually what we see is Lebron at his best being better than both Duncan and Shaq.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 01:16 PM
At there best, both Hakeem and Lebron have shown more than Shaq or Duncan in the playoffs. Wade had the best finals of all time. These are facts gentlemen.

kdspurman
08-25-2016, 01:28 PM
At there best, both Hakeem and Lebron have shown more than Shaq or Duncan in the playoffs. Wade had the best finals of all time. These are facts gentlemen.

Duncan and Shaq's best matches up with those guys for sure lol.. Shaq in 2000? Duncan in 2003?

& how about at their worst? You always knew what you would get from Duncan in the playoffs. Let's be honest, there was some doubt about Lebron after the debacle against the Celtics in 2010 (some go as far to say as he quit), the train-wreck in 2011, and even the bulk of the 2013 finals. You didn't have those questions about Duncan/Shaq on the biggest stages. They always performed at a high level.

6man
08-25-2016, 01:53 PM
Thats kind of sad tho, hes not a bigman, hes not a PF-C where you can just dismiss his lack of perimeter dominance.

Like Flash brings up all-around skillsets but why would that matter if these guys are having superior series? Far more productive, FAR greater defensive impact.

Curry- Liability against these players
Wade- Liability against the MUCH taller Tmac.
Bron - Not a liability but definitely not switching onto Duncan/Shaq here so we can stop that defensive versatility BS.
KG - Liability vs Duncan, as a TWolves fan, you should know how often he wanted his centers to defend KG. Hell, poor Ervin Johnson was overmatched yet he was invaluable because he kept KG off a real big man
Hakeem at 6-10 couldnt handle baby Shaq 1v1, imagine a MUCH stronger Shaq with greater defensive ability.

This is honestly not that close, Bron and Wade represent the worst shooting partnership and it totally stunts KG/Hakeems post game. Remember how badly KG played in the post when he had Rondo on the court, yet when Rondo was out, his post game suddenly came to life. Feeding KG nothing but mid range jumpers is not bringing out the best in him. Thats what this comes down to, Bird-Tmac-Magic ALWAYS got the best out of their post players. This team works if you get rid of Wade and replace him with someone who doesn't play exactly how Bron plays.

Magic is a liability on defense and in no way is Wade a liability going against T-Mac. Wade is the far better player. Didn't Shaq say the only player he couldn't stop was Hakeem? I could've swore I heard that somewhere.

6man
08-25-2016, 01:57 PM
LOL, that was a significantly hobbled Tmac who had to play without Yao and without his starting PG for 2 games and hes suppose to beat the Jazz? A Jazz team with far more talent? Why should he do that when this is a game where the best player can miss the playoffs. Havent we seen enough all-time greats lose in R.1 when they lacked teammates.

We didn't see all time greats never get past the first round in their careers until they were bench warmers though. A huge reason as to why T-Mac isn't considered an all time great by any means. What's the excuses for every year he never made it past the first round?

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 02:16 PM
Duncan and Shaq's best matches up with those guys for sure lol.. Shaq in 2000? Duncan in 2003?

& how about at their worst? You always knew what you would get from Duncan in the playoffs. Let's be honest, there was some doubt about Lebron after the debacle against the Celtics in 2010 (some go as far to say as he quit), the train-wreck in 2011, and even the bulk of the 2013 finals. You didn't have those questions about Duncan/Shaq on the biggest stages. They always performed at a high level.

Hihgest PER in playoffs Lebron & Hakeem,
Highest Winshares48 in playofss Lebron & Hakeem

And yes Shaq and Duncan aren't close. Go look at the actual numbers, or give me some actual numbers.

kdspurman
08-25-2016, 02:26 PM
Hihgest PER in playoffs Lebron & Hakeem,
Highest Winshares48 in playofss Lebron & Hakeem

And yes Shaq and Duncan aren't close. Go look at the actual numbers, or give me some actual numbers.

I see you didn't respond to the 2nd portion of my post, which is convenient.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

I dont know how you quantify those as not close btw.... Not that I think your argument is completely sound anyway by simply using those metrics.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 02:27 PM
Best of career WS48
Bron .3994
Dream .3885
Duncan .2792 (2003) LMAO
Shaq .2602

Lebron has 2 years better than Duncan's best and he has and 4 years better than Shaq's best so please stop.

Best Playoff PER
Dream 38.96
Bron 37.39
Tim 31.80
Shaq 31.00

So again please stop with this nonsense about them being as dominant as Lebron or Dream. Yes they are all top 10 in playoff domination, but Clearly Lebron and Dream have had higher peak dominance that Shaq and Duncan have never seen before.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 02:32 PM
I see you didn't respond to the 2nd portion of my post, which is convenient.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

I dont know how you quantify those as not close btw.... Not that I think your argument is completely sound anyway by simply using those metrics.

So based on what you just showed me, Lebron is better on average, and his peak is also better. Then considering how many more playoffs Duncan has played in, Lebron destroys him in Winshares. This isn't close

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 02:39 PM
Bron is #1 in Winshares in the playoffs ever and he is not close to done. Duncan has like what 19 straight seasons in the playoffs and Bron is still ahead of him. That should tell you all that we need to know about who has been more dominant. This argument is making less and less sense the further we keep going with this. By the time Lebron has logged as many seasons as Duncan or Shaq this will be a comically huge gap. If Duncan was as dominant, he would be destroying Lebron right now.

PLEASE JUST STOP. MATHEMATICALLY YOUR ARGUMENT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!

kdspurman
08-25-2016, 02:42 PM
Bron is #1 in Winshares in the playoffs ever and he is not close to done. Duncan has like what 19 straight seasons in the playoffs and Bron is still ahead of him. That should tell you all that we need to know about who has been more dominant. This argument is making less and less sense the further we keep going with this. By the time Lebron has logged as many seasons as Duncan or Shaq this will be a comically huge gap. If Duncan was as dominant, he would be destroying Lebron right now.

PLEASE JUST STOP. MATHEMATICALLY YOUR ARGUMENT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!

It tells me that TD plays in the far tougher conference. :crazy:

Still waiting to hear about those years of Lebron that were *ahem* less than elite, during the prime of his career, on some big stages.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 02:49 PM
It tells me that TD plays in the far tougher conference. :crazy:

Still waiting to hear about those years of Lebron that were *ahem* less than elite, during the prime of his career, on some big stages.

Oh my!!! Harder conference. OK, I know your smart enough to know how averages work, but since you want me to go there. Based on the info, no matter how low he has been, he's also been that much higher. So you low argument holds no water if on average Tim is still lower, which he is by a good margin. Thus there is no way Tim has been as dominant as Lebron has, Its impossible, and if we stick the Lebron has been lower than Tim fact, then that even strengthens my case more so that Lebron's highs have been much higher for him to be as far ahead as he is of Tim.

This reminds of when people used to knock Barry Sanders and say he's got more runs for losses than any other runningback. Yeah, but if he is still averaging 5.5 yards per carry and your guy averages 4.2, than He has still been much better.

Cherry picking at its finest. Congrats! Way to ignore the stats you want to especially when in totality Lebron has been more dominant by a good Margin.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 02:52 PM
This all comes from someone who loves Duncan and agrees he is a straight beast.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 06:23 PM
What? In there head to heads in the playoffs, they played even, and that with KG having to contend with Drob as well. Where are you getting this from?
LOL, thats with KG hiding on D-Rob. Im getting it from the games, where Duncan both outplayed and won series vs KG, not to mention KG continuously getting outplayed by every PF in his series. Maybe not Sheed but its close.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 06:24 PM
Actually what we see is Lebron at his best being better than both Duncan and Shaq.
LMFAO, not based on any objective material and thats pretty sad considering its what Bron relies on to pad his historic achievements despite lesser comp.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 06:27 PM
At there best, both Hakeem and Lebron have shown more than Shaq or Duncan in the playoffs. Wade had the best finals of all time. These are facts gentlemen.

False, at their best, Bron has had the least impressive series against top notch comp. Hakeem is different but hes no Shaq/Duncan come post season.

Wade had the best PER in the Finals, sadly I dont think you know how PER is measured, otherwise you wouldn't say he had the best series ever. As if we're suppose to ignore the quality of comp

kdspurman
08-25-2016, 06:32 PM
Oh my!!! Harder conference. OK, I know your smart enough to know how averages work, but since you want me to go there. Based on the info, no matter how low he has been, he's also been that much higher. So you low argument holds no water if on average Tim is still lower, which he is by a good margin. Thus there is no way Tim has been as dominant as Lebron has, Its impossible, and if we stick the Lebron has been lower than Tim fact, then that even strengthens my case more so that Lebron's highs have been much higher for him to be as far ahead as he is of Tim.

This reminds of when people used to knock Barry Sanders and say he's got more runs for losses than any other runningback. Yeah, but if he is still averaging 5.5 yards per carry and your guy averages 4.2, than He has still been much better.

Cherry picking at its finest. Congrats! Way to ignore the stats you want to especially when in totality Lebron has been more dominant by a good Margin.

So you picking only using 2 statistical measurements isn't cherry picking? That doesn't tell the whole story. + ignoring my argument for worst series?

Chronz
08-25-2016, 06:32 PM
Magic is a liability on defense and in no way is Wade a liability going against T-Mac. Wade is the far better player. Didn't Shaq say the only player he couldn't stop was Hakeem? I could've swore I heard that somewhere.

He also said Hakeem took the longest to slay.

You're right about Magic but not too different from Curry.

And hell no, Wade isnt the better player much less a "Far" greater player. Dude was a lesser talent in just about every way, the only thing he had on Tmac was LeBron+Shaq. We both saw what they could do when carrying garbage and only Tmac was putting up huge numbers on both ends whilst taking superior teams to the brink of elimination.

6man
08-25-2016, 07:00 PM
He also said Hakeem took the longest to slay.

You're right about Magic but not too different from Curry.

And hell no, Wade isnt the better player much less a "Far" greater player. Dude was a lesser talent in just about every way, the only thing he had on Tmac was LeBron+Shaq. We both saw what they could do when carrying garbage and only Tmac was putting up huge numbers on both ends whilst taking superior teams to the brink of elimination.

But part of how great you are is determined on being able to win and your ability to lead your teams to wins, right? Wade had LeBron and Shaq but Shaq was terrible in that finals against the Mavs and that was awarded team from the get go with those 2. IIRC wade almost carried them to the finals his 2nd year in the league until getting injured and followed it up with arguably the greatest finals performance ever in just his 3rd year.

I don't think T-Mac could match Wade if he were in Wades position by any means and I think Wades defense is being underrated a lot here. You said T-Ma couldn't be stopped by anyone 6'6 and under but Wade is right there at 6'4, elite athleticism, and I think a wingspan at 7 feet long. I've also never seen anyone that was able to stop Wade in his prime and he would go toe-to-toe with 2 of the greatest ever in Kobe and LeBron and got the best of each multiple times.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 07:14 PM
We didn't see all time greats never get past the first round in their careers until they were bench warmers though
False. Check the records.

. A huge reason as to why T-Mac isn't considered an all time great by any means. What's the excuses for every year he never made it past the first round?

Same as it was when greater players couldn't make the playoffs much less get beyond round 1. Only worse in Tmacs case as he had far worse luck with teammates+era.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 07:24 PM
But part of how great you are is determined on being able to win and your ability to lead your teams to wins, right?
Not to me, I've seen Tmac out play stars who advanced further. Tmac in his series vs Dirk's FAR superior FAR healthier Mavs is a great example. Dirk got locked down, but his teammates carried him to success as they faced a depleted Houston team. Why would I ignore the fact that Tmac was the best player in the series? Just because his team lost? LMFAO, no thank you.


Wade had LeBron and Shaq but Shaq was terrible in that finals against the Mavs and that was awarded team from the get go with those 2.
Tmac would have killed to have a "Terrible Shaq". Particularly when Wade admitted to Shaq that him being constantly doubled would lead to him being so aggressive. Not to mention how dominant Shaq was in the ECF on both ends. Again, FAR more help, we saw what both did when they were in identical situations carrying scrubs, and what we saw was Tmac lead them more impressively. We never saw Tmac with a Shaq/LeBron so Im not gonna let luck sway me here.



IIRC wade almost carried them to the finals his 2nd year in the league until getting injured and followed it up with arguably the greatest finals performance ever in just his 3rd year.

You recall incorrectly as Shaq was actually his teams MVP that year. And sure, if we ignore the bad calls made, the fact that Dallas allowed every perimeter player to abuse them all year then sure, it was arguably the greatest, but why would anyone do that?


I don't think T-Mac could match Wade if he were in Wades position by any means and I think Wades defense is being underrated a lot here. You said T-Ma couldn't be stopped by anyone 6'6 and under but Wade is right there at 6'4, elite athleticism, and I think a wingspan at 7 feet long. I've also never seen anyone that was able to stop Wade in his prime and he would go toe-to-toe with 2 of the greatest ever in Kobe and LeBron and got the best of each multiple times.

Meh, you ask Kobe and he'll tell you that Tmac was the tougher cover so no point in mentioning him here unless your purposely trying to undermine your own argument. And how is it being underrated if no one has stepped up to name these great defensive series. Wade being 6"4 doesn't impress anyone, thats exactly why he would be outmatched, Tmac would see over the top of this midget so easily. His wingspan didn't prevent guys like Jones, GP, Posey being FAR better options defensively. Even with all the HOF announcers wondering why Wade refused to check Tmac, he never stepped up to the challenge.

Wade isn't remotely the shooter Tmac is, and he lacks his defensive versatility.
Tmac is far superior to Wade in terms of skillset and production at their peak, Wade is just lucky he didn't play in the hardest defensive environment imaginable. Career worth is irrelevant, nobody is claiming Tmac to have the superior career.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 07:31 PM
So you picking only using 2 statistical measurements isn't cherry picking? That doesn't tell the whole story. + ignoring my argument for worst series?

If we're going to use stats, we should use playoff adjusted stats. They account for the strength of defense at least somewhat. Duncan, Shaq, Kobe played the hardest defenses, they did after all, play in the toughest defensive environment and made deep runs in the West. Im curious to see Brons stats once we take away his victories against the dregs of the East. Like imagine if Bron played the Spurs in R.2 instead of the Finals, I cant imagine anyone is dumb enough to think Brons stats remain the same had he played in the West.

Therefore, I say we bring up every great players best and worst series. Like what would be Duncans? Its either the Malone/Shaq series or its the win vs the Pistons where McDyess and Sheed played him with Ben helping.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 07:38 PM
LMFAO, not based on any objective material and thats pretty sad considering its what Bron relies on to pad his historic achievements despite lesser comp.

Wait what? Lebron has more playoff winshares than anyone in history. Considering how much longer Duncan has played, what is this objective material you speak of. Go back and get your math right bruh, because what you are saying is mathematically impossible.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 07:40 PM
LOL, thats with KG hiding on D-Rob. Im getting it from the games, where Duncan both outplayed and won series vs KG, not to mention KG continuously getting outplayed by every PF in his series. Maybe not Sheed but its close.

Hiding on Drob? LOLOLOLOL. This is as pathetic as you've ever been. Hiding on Drob? So then who was checking Duncan so that he statistically was equal to KG? Rahso? LMFAO. Your argument gets a hell of a lot weaker if thats the case. While KG was hiding on Drob, Rasho was giving Duncan the business apparently.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 07:44 PM
Hiding on Drob? LOLOLOLOL. This is as pathetic as you've ever been. Hiding on Drob? So then who was checking Duncan so that he statistically was equal to KG? Rahso? LMFAO. Your argument gets a hell of a lot weaker if thats the case. While KG was hiding on Drob, Rasho was giving Duncan the business apparently.

I was out of line. I honestly dont remember those series, what I remember are analysts prioritizing the importance of their bigs keeping KG off Duncan. That was never applied for Duncan because he could defend anyone, but honestly, ask Hawk if he remembers how highly people spoke of Ervin Johnson and his ability to defend Duncan.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 07:45 PM
Wait what? Lebron has more playoff winshares than anyone in history. Considering how much longer Duncan has played, what is this objective material you speak of. Go back and get your math right bruh, because what you are saying is mathematically impossible.

Oh Ill check the math alright.

IKnowHoops
08-25-2016, 07:59 PM
False, at their best, Bron has had the least impressive series against top notch comp. Hakeem is different but hes no Shaq/Duncan come post season.

Wade had the best PER in the Finals, sadly I dont think you know how PER is measured, otherwise you wouldn't say he had the best series ever. As if we're suppose to ignore the quality of comp

Lebron's highest PER and WS48 numbers in the playoffs dwarf Duncan's. Don't know what type of twisted thinking your relying on, but you sound ridiculous. Probably why you have yet to throw out one single statistic to base your claim on. Instead it just empty words. SMH

Chronz
08-25-2016, 08:08 PM
I swear if it weren't for you guys I would have gone mad waiting to talk ball. Thanks for providing me these trivial scenarios for me to obsess over.

6man
08-25-2016, 08:35 PM
Sorry man I just don't see any scenario where T-Mac is better than Wade. T-Mac had his chances and regardless if he played good none of it meant anything.

Chronz
08-25-2016, 09:57 PM
Sorry man I just don't see any scenario where T-Mac is better than Wade. T-Mac had his chances and regardless if he played good none of it meant anything.

Tmac never had Bron+Shaq chances tho. And what do you mean you dont see it, it happened in front of your eyes, remember when Wade was at this apex and was failing to get out of R1? Tmac did that too, only he did it whilst locking down and putting up monster stats whereas Wade had the luxury of the handcheck rule and still didn't match up.

If Wade is so superior, why didn't he outshine Tmac when both were in more similar environments?

lol, please
08-25-2016, 10:14 PM
We can disagree until the cows come home, when have either Shaq or Duncan been as successfully contained as Bron has in his playoff defeats?
Never. People keep evading that question.

Can you imagine prime Duncan and Shaq next to each other? It would be a treat to watch as a fan of the sport.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

6man
08-25-2016, 11:26 PM
Tmac never had Bron+Shaq chances tho. And what do you mean you dont see it, it happened in front of your eyes, remember when Wade was at this apex and was failing to get out of R1? Tmac did that too, only he did it whilst locking down and putting up monster stats whereas Wade had the luxury of the handcheck rule and still didn't match up.

If Wade is so superior, why didn't he outshine Tmac when both were in more similar environments?

Iverson didn't have LeBron or Shaq chances either but he made it to the finals and he's also not near as good as what we've seen from Wade. What Wade did in 06 outshines anything TMac has ever done. Hell Wade led them to the 2nd round and made the 2nd round interesting against the Pacers while being guarded by Ron artest who was a much better defender than TMac in his rookie season lol. Wade didn't have LeBron or Shaq or Bosh this year and led his team to 1 win away from the ECF and he's way past his prime. Honestly the only 2 years you can even bring up and 08-09 when they went against a stacked Hawks team and 09-10 when they went up against that big 3 celtics team and Wade played very good in both series. Wade was an elite defender also so idk why you're discounting his defense.

I get the feeling TMac is your favorite player so you may be biased.

6man
08-25-2016, 11:31 PM
TMac also isn't near as efficient as Wade and shot some terrible percentages. He also wasn't that good of a shooter so that's being overrated.

hugepatsfan
08-26-2016, 09:22 AM
I was out of line. I honestly dont remember those series, what I remember are analysts prioritizing the importance of their bigs keeping KG off Duncan. That was never applied for Duncan because he could defend anyone, but honestly, ask Hawk if he remembers how highly people spoke of Ervin Johnson and his ability to defend Duncan.

Well they're different players. Duncan can't defend "everyone" just like KG can't. I.E. you mentioned before KG doing a good job on T-Mac. Duncan wouldn't be able to do that. KG is more of a SF/PF that could play C in matchups because he's 7 feet. Duncan is a pure big man - PF/C.

kdspurman
08-26-2016, 09:43 AM
While they did give LeBron and Wade space they both came up huge. Wade played pretty well for being injured and LeBron dominated and the legends came up huge in game 7 as they always should if they want to be considered at a very high all time level and they won the championship. I think I'm in the minority here but I believe the playing off of someone argument is very overrated when you're talking about guys at this level.

2014 the Spurs were ridiculously hot and played like their lives depended on it. LeBron still played pretty great though and it looked like Wades career might've been coming to an end with how his knees were holding up but he seems to be fine now. (Made me hate my life in the ECSF)

That 2013 finals, or at least the last few games, were some of the best I've ever seen.

You sure follow Miami/Wade a good amount for someone who is a Raptors fan... lol

6man
08-26-2016, 01:28 PM
You sure follow Miami/Wade a good amount for someone who is a Raptors fan... lol

I'm a Raptors fan first and foremost but when our season ended I rooted for that Heat team because they were fun to watch and I thought it was fun to see 2 legends like LeBron and Wade win championships.

I like to say I follow the game as a whole pretty well, especially come playoff time where I watch every game.

mngopher35
08-26-2016, 03:06 PM
Well they're different players. Duncan can't defend "everyone" just like KG can't. I.E. you mentioned before KG doing a good job on T-Mac. Duncan wouldn't be able to do that. KG is more of a SF/PF that could play C in matchups because he's 7 feet. Duncan is a pure big man - PF/C.

Ya, when we played Dallas in the playoffs for example KG guarded the perimeter more than he did Dirk (like even Nash). Part of it was his his ability to do that and the other issue was if he didn't penetration always killed us. Dirk had a huge game to end out the series and I posted video of it before, like none of it was vs. KG because we used him in so many ways, Flip tried a bunch of zones with him at the top too. Teams just avoided going at him basically due to little resistance elsewhere and we countered by moving him around a lot. I think it had far less to do with what KG was capable of and more to do with the lack of support (same reason he would bring the ball up at times on O). Obviously KG can't guard huge centers or guys like Shaq but even against Duncan I think his success was just fine when they actually did match up against each other.

As for the thread/question I like the fit of the second team a little bit more but that first team has more talent (4 top 10 players compared to 2 in my book). If Durant were in place of Wade or Curry I think the spacing/defense might be enough to push team 2 over imo but I am leaning team 1 slightly right now.

LA_Raiders
08-27-2016, 02:49 AM
Team magic, no question. Goat at the PG & PF plus Shaq and Bird. They would make LeClown cry.