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View Full Version : Which adjustments throughout 'the process' could have saved Hinkies job?



Bruno
07-31-2016, 04:47 PM
You're Sam Hinkies guardian angle. It's 2012 and you're aware of the fact that the league will commit a stealth coup in the attempt to replace him in 2016. You can telecommunicate information with Sam Hinkie and make suggestions to him knowing the future. what information, hints and requests do you offer his way?

What would you have done with the 76ers starting in 2012 and how would you have done it?

#offseason****post

warfelg
07-31-2016, 05:09 PM
3 things to save his job:

1) Be more open with the media. You don't have to answer every question, but doing a few fluff interviews a year would help.

2) Not every contract has to be partially guaranteed. A few declining salary ones, and a few fully guaranteed deals would make agents happy.

3) In lots of trade talks he hardly hinted at what he wanted or what he wanted to give up. Just be straight forward from time to time. More GM's would be happy.

Honestly those 3 things are what angered Agents/GMs/The NBA. Not many people cared about the losses other than fans.

JasonJohnHorn
07-31-2016, 05:22 PM
Hinkie really just needed to be good at his job.

The bottom line is that Hinkie was TRYING to lose to get high picks. That is a problem.

Sure... he did a great job of getting assets, but the goal of basketball is not to get assets; it's to get buckets.

I get the impression that he was just doing what ownership wanted him to do, so I don't blame him, but at the end of the day, he put together the losingest three seasons in NBA history. That is historically awful. Is it any wonder he got fired?

Sure... he got some bad luck with respect to injuries and drafts without any significant depth/franchise players, but that is the gamble you take when you aim to lose.


People saw OKC and their success getting three straight top-5 picks (or wherever the picks were), and they got a great core with KD, Westy, and Harden, as well as Ibaka, but the Warriors didn't get any top five picks when they were re-building and were still able to draft the best team in the league with Curry, Klay, Dray, and Barnes. You don't need good picks, you need great scouts.

There are plenty of top-five picks who are busts. Locking up a top-five pick don't just guarantee you a shot at a franchise player; it guarantees you a shot at a high-level bust as well.

D-Leethal
07-31-2016, 05:53 PM
If his three draft choices solidified more positions. You can't draft 3 Cs in 3 drafts when you went into each season with intentions of tanking.

McAllen Tx
07-31-2016, 05:55 PM
I believe the league was good with his plan, he just overtanked. Last season was their 3rd season tanking and should've been theirs last. They had 3 years to acquire assets and the league stayed out of their way. But there comes a point when you have to start using them assets to make your team better. IMO that's where Hinkie messed up.

At the trading deadline Philly just about had the worst record locked up. It was a buyers market and Hinkie should've taken advantage of it. He could've made some deals and still ended up with the worst record, he either refused to make his team better ( that's a problem ) or he doesn't have the know how (another problem) to make his team better.

All's we read is how Hinkie has acquired all these assets but yet he hadn't put a small package together to get anybody. What good are the assets of you don't do anything with them.

Orlando gave Harris away for nothing. Hinkie couldnt of given up a late 1st for him? Atlanta just traded Teague for a draft pick. I don't want hear how he didn't fit the youth movement cause they signed Bayless whi had to be the same age. Hinkie couldnt give up the Sacremento swap or pick?

I don't think they would've had to give up any of their own picks, or LAs pick, or any of their young Cs for either of them two.

There were deals that Hinkie could've made to make Philly a better team (looking ahead to this season) last trading deadline and still finished with the worst record and he didn't do it. Why? IDK but I believe that's what costed him his job.

sjbirds
07-31-2016, 08:58 PM
Not let the nba force colanglo on the sixers

hugepatsfan
07-31-2016, 09:12 PM
Sign semi-legit talent to one year deals the way other rebuilding teams do. It makes them marginally better but not so much that it has a great effect on lottery chances. Hinkie instead signed D-League guys so he didn't risk being 2nd or 3rd worst in the lottery instead of absolute worst. That offends the league because now they basically have a wasted team on the schedule that doesn't draw at all on the road. It offends the players/agents because now there's less paying jobs for vets who deserve NBA deals.

It really just comes fown to that. Other than signing D-Leagues instead of short-term actual NBA guys he wasn't doing anything any other crappy team isn't consistently doing. Other fans make him out to be much worse and the 76ers fans make him out to be some undercover genius with method to his madness but it really wasn't much different. He just did that one thing that made him a villain to the league and to the players.

5ass
07-31-2016, 09:19 PM
Sign semi-legit talent to one year deals the way other rebuilding teams do. It makes them marginally better but not so much that it has a great effect on lottery chances. Hinkie instead signed D-League guys so he didn't risk being 2nd or 3rd worst in the lottery instead of absolute worst. That offends the league because now they basically have a wasted team on the schedule that doesn't draw at all on the road. It offends the players/agents because now there's less paying jobs for vets who deserve NBA deals.

It really just comes fown to that. Other than signing D-Leagues instead of short-term actual NBA guys he wasn't doing anything any other crappy team isn't consistently doing. Other fans make him out to be much worse and the 76ers fans make him out to be some undercover genius with method to his madness but it really wasn't much different. He just did that one thing that made him a villain to the league and to the players.

It wasn't just that one thing though. It was multiple things, some already mentioned, but i'll also add the Holiday trade to the list.

hugepatsfan
07-31-2016, 09:25 PM
It wasn't just that one thing though. It was multiple things, some already mentioned, but i'll also add the Holiday trade to the list.

The other stuff wouldn't have gotten him fired. He decided to rebuild his middling team. That happens. That's nothing that would have made him public enemy #1. He drafted guys who's games didn't mesh - that also happens. People would have laughed at him for these things but he wouldn't have drawn the venom as he did.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2016, 09:45 PM
Hinkie really just needed to be good at his job.

The bottom line is that Hinkie was TRYING to lose to get high picks. That is a problem.

Sure... he did a great job of getting assets, but the goal of basketball is not to get assets; it's to get buckets.

I get the impression that he was just doing what ownership wanted him to do, so I don't blame him, but at the end of the day, he put together the losingest three seasons in NBA history. That is historically awful. Is it any wonder he got fired?

Sure... he got some bad luck with respect to injuries and drafts without any significant depth/franchise players, but that is the gamble you take when you aim to lose.


People saw OKC and their success getting three straight top-5 picks (or wherever the picks were), and they got a great core with KD, Westy, and Harden, as well as Ibaka, but the Warriors didn't get any top five picks when they were re-building and were still able to draft the best team in the league with Curry, Klay, Dray, and Barnes. You don't need good picks, you need great scouts.

There are plenty of top-five picks who are busts. Locking up a top-five pick don't just guarantee you a shot at a franchise player; it guarantees you a shot at a high-level bust as well.

Yea but the system is flawed from the start with superstars only wanting to team up or go to great teams. You cant expect teams to keep trying and failing because of the system in place all while being stuck in mediocrity and expect them to do the same thing over and over.

Whats worse exactly? The sixers selling their tickets dirt cheap and telling people they are tanking and being open or what the lakers did where everybody knew they were tanking and they basically robbed their fans? Hinkie did what other Gms have done forever he was just open about and never lied about it. What could have saved his job? I guess not being open about it and signing a terrible player or 2 and lose anyway so they can overprice merchandise and tickets?

More-Than-Most
07-31-2016, 09:47 PM
I believe the league was good with his plan, he just overtanked. Last season was their 3rd season tanking and should've been theirs last. They had 3 years to acquire assets and the league stayed out of their way. But there comes a point when you have to start using them assets to make your team better. IMO that's where Hinkie messed up.

At the trading deadline Philly just about had the worst record locked up. It was a buyers market and Hinkie should've taken advantage of it. He could've made some deals and still ended up with the worst record, he either refused to make his team better ( that's a problem ) or he doesn't have the know how (another problem) to make his team better.

All's we read is how Hinkie has acquired all these assets but yet he hadn't put a small package together to get anybody. What good are the assets of you don't do anything with them.

Orlando gave Harris away for nothing. Hinkie couldnt of given up a late 1st for him? Atlanta just traded Teague for a draft pick. I don't want hear how he didn't fit the youth movement cause they signed Bayless whi had to be the same age. Hinkie couldnt give up the Sacremento swap or pick?

I don't think they would've had to give up any of their own picks, or LAs pick, or any of their young Cs for either of them two.

There were deals that Hinkie could've made to make Philly a better team (looking ahead to this season) last trading deadline and still finished with the worst record and he didn't do it. Why? IDK but I believe that's what costed him his job.

i would never give up that sac swap sorry.

Scoots
07-31-2016, 10:04 PM
Not let the nba force colanglo on the sixers

That was not up to Hinkie.

Scoots
07-31-2016, 10:05 PM
I think, regardless of the number of wins, he had to field a TEAM. What he did was put a bunch of mis-matched individuals on the court and there was no attempt to assemble a group that could work together.

Chronz
07-31-2016, 10:14 PM
He was used and abused, the Sixers got the start they wanted and agreed to, now they have very little chance to **** it up and the old regime took the fall.

McAllen Tx
07-31-2016, 10:19 PM
i would never give up that sac swap sorry.

Forget the Sac swap, that wasnt the point. The point was with all these so called assets he couldnt put something together to get Teague?

He did great at acquiring assets but when it was time for him to put them assets to use he bombed big time.

His 3 years of tanking was up with no interference. Last trading deadline he should've showed something going into this upcoming season. Tobias Harris wouldve easily been your 2nd best player after Okafor and he was given away. I think him alone would've saved Hinkie.

Like I said, he either refused to make deals to improve the team when it was time or he doesn't have the know how to make team improving deals. Dont know which one is worse.

5ass
07-31-2016, 10:36 PM
The other stuff wouldn't have gotten him fired. He decided to rebuild his middling team. That happens. That's nothing that would have made him public enemy #1. He drafted guys who's games didn't mesh - that also happens. People would have laughed at him for these things but he wouldn't have drawn the venom as he did.
I was referring to what made him a "villain to the league". You said it was just that one thing. I disagree.

ewing
07-31-2016, 11:32 PM
I think, regardless of the number of wins, he had to field a TEAM. What he did was put a bunch of mis-matched individuals on the court and there was no attempt to assemble a group that could work together.


agreed.

warfelg
08-01-2016, 06:04 AM
I think, regardless of the number of wins, he had to field a TEAM. What he did was put a bunch of mis-matched individuals on the court and there was no attempt to assemble a group that could work together.

This is what bothered me. He could have done that and still stunk at the same time.

IndyRealist
08-01-2016, 07:34 AM
Am I remembering wrong to think it was supposed to be a 5 year plan? Saying "his time was up" after three years seems premature. We can assume the ping pong balls would have fallen the same way, and he would have landed his star in Simmons, and then he could trade EVERYTHING away for a 2nd and 3rd star in the next two years.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 08:46 AM
Forget the Sac swap, that wasnt the point. The point was with all these so called assets he couldnt put something together to get Teague?

He did great at acquiring assets but when it was time for him to put them assets to use he bombed big time.

His 3 years of tanking was up with no interference. Last trading deadline he should've showed something going into this upcoming season. Tobias Harris wouldve easily been your 2nd best player after Okafor and he was given away. I think him alone would've saved Hinkie.

Like I said, he either refused to make deals to improve the team when it was time or he doesn't have the know how to make team improving deals. Dont know which one is worse.

WE DONT WANT TEAGUE. No one is batting an eye at not having Harris either. Why would we trade Noel or Okafor for a 28 year old Teague, who has peaked, and due to make 20+ mil a year? Yea ill take Bayless at 9mil on the short term allllll day.

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 09:52 AM
WE DONT WANT TEAGUE. No one is batting an eye at not having Harris either. Why would we trade Noel or Okafor for a 28 year old Teague, who has peaked, and due to make 20+ mil a year? Yea ill take Bayless at 9mil on the short term allllll day.

Reading comprehension homie, I clearly stated (very clearly) that you guys didnt have to give up either Okafor or Noel for Teague. I clearly stated I wouldnt have done that either. I clearly stated that dont you guys supposingly have tons and tons and tons of assets, couldnt Hinkie put something together to get Teague.

Now you guys dont want Teague - Teague>>>>>Bayless. If you guys wouldnt of wanted Teague after this season, Im 100% positive that Bayless would've AGAIN been available next summer.

The league didnt trust Hinkie was gonna be able to turn his assets into something and now he's gone. Hinkie dropped the ball by not showing an ounce of capability of being able to. If he couldn't get nothing done in a buyers market then when the hell can he?

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 10:00 AM
Am I remembering wrong to think it was supposed to be a 5 year plan? Saying "his time was up" after three years seems premature. We can assume the ping pong balls would have fallen the same way, and he would have landed his star in Simmons, and then he could trade EVERYTHING away for a 2nd and 3rd star in the next two years.
Yes it was a 5 year REBUILDING plan, not a 5 year suckfest and then BEGIN to rebuild. This would've been Hinkies 5th year of the plan. Dont forget the 1st year when he traded an all-star PG (Holiday) whom he knew was injured for Noel.

I could be wrong but when you got a 5 year REBUILDING plan and in the 5th year you're still a bottom 2 team in the league, your plan failed.

Tony_Starks
08-01-2016, 10:12 AM
His firing had nothing to do with what he actually did and everything to do with him being a pompous jerk. See his exit letter. Had he not carried himself in a such a know it all manner with the media and his peers he'd still have a job.

As far as his job the goal was the make the team as horrible as humanly possible while stockpiling picks until they lucked up on a franchise player. Simmons may very well be it plus somebody will eventually take Okafor or Noel off their hands so mission accomplished I guess.

IndyRealist
08-01-2016, 10:14 AM
Yes it was a 5 year REBUILDING plan, not a 5 year suckfest and then BEGIN to rebuild. This would've been Hinkies 5th year of the plan. Dont forget the 1st year when he traded an all-star PG (Holiday) whom he knew was injured for Noel.

I could be wrong but when you got a 5 year REBUILDING plan and in the 5th year you're still a bottom 2 team in the league, your plan failed.

Eh, once he landed Simmons it would have been a quick turnaround. Trade away just about everything for a star, then people will come in free agency.

Scoots
08-01-2016, 10:35 AM
This is what bothered me. He could have done that and still stunk at the same time.

Exactly.

I also think some of his moves were kind of thumbing his nose at the other GMs which didn't really help win him any friends. Trading for huge contracts and cutting them to collect 2nd round picks and help teams that were otherwise capped supposedly angered teams who managed their caps better.

SeoulBeatz
08-01-2016, 10:47 AM
Yes it was a 5 year REBUILDING plan, not a 5 year suckfest and then BEGIN to rebuild. This would've been Hinkies 5th year of the plan. Dont forget the 1st year when he traded an all-star PG (Holiday) whom he knew was injured for Noel.

I could be wrong but when you got a 5 year REBUILDING plan and in the 5th year you're still a bottom 2 team in the league, your plan failed.

Hinkie was hired in June of 2013. He traded Holiday for Noel and Saric in the 2013 draft. Unless my math is shoddy, that's 3 years, not 5.

And in response to this thread, the main things I think he could have done better are:

-Communicate with the press more. He seemed keen on keeping his "master plan" a complete secret and left reporters out in the cold without any hint of what he was doing. The media and casual fans in Philadelphia hate him, while diehards view him as the messiah.

-Drafted on BPA all the time, but this can go either way. At the time of the draft, I thought every pick he made was the right pick. In hindsight, some of these moves look good while other's could have been better.

-In 2013: Selling high on Jrue for Noel and Saric was a great move (and still is IMO).
-Drafting MCW at 11 was fine at the time, especially when he won ROY, but in hindsight we should have drafted the Greek Freak. Not a good move in the end.
-In 2014: Drafting Embiid was the right move and STILL is in hindsight. We had our sights set on Wiggins, but when that didn't happen I was all for Embiid. Who knows what we'll get out of him, but from all the videos I've seen and everything I've heard from this offseason he looks in fantastic shape. I would have been pissed had we reached on Aaron Gordon. He was the right pick, especially considering we only had Noel in the frontcourt at the time.
-In 2015: Jahlil was BPA at the time of the draft, obviously KP should have been the pick, but we would still have a logjam in the frontcourt had we drafted him. Obviously Hinkie could have done more research and found the value in KP, but I wasn't mad at him picking Jahlil especially with Embiid's future being up in the air.

So obviously his drafts were hit or miss, but it's not hard to see the reasoning behind the picks at the time they were made. Injuries and unlucky lottery placement played a factor but the organization knew the risks when they decided to go full-tank mode. It's called a "lottery" after all, Hinkie was just trying to give the Sixer's the best odds of getting lucky and I love the man for that.

Other moves that I disliked was trading KJ Mcdaniels for Isaiah Canaan. Every other trade he made was solid to great IMHO. Especially the Stauskus trade with rights to swap with Kings for next two years, so while BC slowly tries to improve the team we can have Sacramento tank for us, and things could get really ugly over there if DMC is shipped out.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 10:57 AM
Reading comprehension homie, I clearly stated (very clearly) that you guys didnt have to give up either Okafor or Noel for Teague. I clearly stated I wouldnt have done that either. I clearly stated that dont you guys supposingly have tons and tons and tons of assets, couldnt Hinkie put something together to get Teague.

Now you guys dont want Teague - Teague>>>>>Bayless. If you guys wouldnt of wanted Teague after this season, Im 100% positive that Bayless would've AGAIN been available next summer.

The league didnt trust Hinkie was gonna be able to turn his assets into something and now he's gone. Hinkie dropped the ball by not showing an ounce of capability of being able to. If he couldn't get nothing done in a buyers market then when the hell can he?

but we didnt want Teague at all. We offered for Schorder and they declined, cant force a team to make a trade. Not a big deal at all.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 10:59 AM
Yes it was a 5 year REBUILDING plan, not a 5 year suckfest and then BEGIN to rebuild. This would've been Hinkies 5th year of the plan. Dont forget the 1st year when he traded an all-star PG (Holiday) whom he knew was injured for Noel.

I could be wrong but when you got a 5 year REBUILDING plan and in the 5th year you're still a bottom 2 team in the league, your plan failed.

how could this have been hinkies 5th year if he only was with the team for 3? come on bro brush up on your knowledge. if you dont understand everything than dont comment. thats like me saying the Lakers have been tanking since the Howard fiasco.

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 12:22 PM
how could this have been hinkies 5th year if he only was with the team for 3? come on bro brush up on your knowledge. if you dont understand everything than dont comment. thats like me saying the Lakers have been tanking since the Howard fiasco.

Damn I was wrong, I was off by a year. This was gonna be Hinkies 4th year not 5th.

What does that say about what the league thought about Hinkie and his plan.

So Hinkie didnt even get to see his 4th offseason.... SMH

In 3 seasons the only player that Hinkie traded for to make the 76ers better was Ish Smith. He helped you guys get to an amazing 10-72 record.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 12:25 PM
cant gut a team and rebuild from the bottom and expect to win within 3 years, losing is losing so if we know we will suck why not ensure a higher draft pick? Best part is he set us up so we dont have to tank this year (still prob bottom 3 bad anyway for 1 more year) allowing us to rely on the Kings and Lakers for potentially top 5 picks. Then go look up how we acquired those picks and tell me the man isnt a evil genius.

PhillyFaninLA
08-01-2016, 12:56 PM
Elton Brand is the perfect example of what Hinkie failed to do....Hinkie did a great job tearing the team down and acquiring assets. He did not acquire vets (old vets that can and want to serve as mentors) that can show these kids how to play.

He deserved this offseason but I didn't trust him to have it.

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 12:58 PM
cant gut a team and rebuild from the bottom and expect to win within 3 years, losing is losing so if we know we will suck why not ensure a higher draft pick? Best part is he set us up so we dont have to tank this year (still prob bottom 3 bad anyway for 1 more year) allowing us to rely on the Kings and Lakers for potentially top 5 picks. Then go look up how we acquired those picks and tell me the man isnt a evil genius.

I totally agree with that, you cant rebuild from the bottom up and expect a winner in year 3. Ive never said anything contrary to that.

What Ive been saying is that after them 3 tank years are up you have to ride and die with the choices you've made. Year 4 you have to try and put a winner on the court. Last season was Hinkies 3rd tank season, at the trading deadline you guys had worst record pretty much secured so Hinkie then HAD to start putting a winning team together for this upcoming season. He didnt.

You guys keep talking about how he raped in every trade he made. Well it was his turn to grab his ankles and he refused. He left you guys in a good position but it costed him his job. I right now see why you guys like him so much, he literally took one for the team.

I really do believe he would still have his job right now if he did something last trading deadline to show he was gonna try and put a winner on the court for this upcoming season. Nothing outrageous just something.

Scoots
08-01-2016, 01:08 PM
cant gut a team and rebuild from the bottom and expect to win within 3 years, losing is losing so if we know we will suck why not ensure a higher draft pick? Best part is he set us up so we dont have to tank this year (still prob bottom 3 bad anyway for 1 more year) allowing us to rely on the Kings and Lakers for potentially top 5 picks. Then go look up how we acquired those picks and tell me the man isnt a evil genius.

Bob Myers took over the Warriors in 2011-2012, they won a title in 2014-2015 with the only players left over from the takeover being David Lee (barely playing at all) and Steph Curry (he got VERY lucky there).

By the way, that 2012 team included Ish Smith in his 2nd year :)

Hinkie made a lot of great deals, and I believe he did a reasonably good job at taking who he thought was BPA in the draft ... but BPA doesn't work if year after year the players on the board at that moment don't fit. He had a TON of assets, he could have potentially saved his job if he had traded some to move around in the draft to get players who could make a team. Also I believe his lack of communication with the players and media lead in part to the players not being particularly happy ... they KNEW they were all JUST ASSETS, also they were all looking at significant bonuses when just before the deadline he traded for a few more over-priced vets for 2nd round picks and then cut them. He didn't need the 2nd round picks, but he did need the players to feel like a team.

Hinkie did a really good job in hiring a coach and winning in trades and I think his process has real merit and will be repeated before too long ... but nobody will ever do it quite so harshly from the outside perspective.

TylerSL
08-01-2016, 01:12 PM
A couple things actually. First he shouldn't have so brazenly picked players he knew couldn't help his team the next year. Taking Noel was one thing because while he was going to miss the following season, he could really help a franchise. The same could be said for Embiid as well but he had already taken Noel, he didn't need Embiid on top of it. And the Sario Daric AND the Okafor picks was just overkill because now you have potentially 4 top picks who can only play 2 positions at most. Even if they all get healthy they would have to trade guys just to stop log jams. Taking players 2 years in a row he knew wasn't going to help him the following season really set the franchise back. Prospects have to be able to grow together you can't just put prospects on a team and make them win. So deliberately taking guys who were hurt set the franchise back a couple years. A quick review of his drafting history

2013: #5-Nerlens Noel C/PF #11-Michael Carter-Williams PG

2014: #3-Joel Embiid C #12-Dario Saric PF/C

2015 #3-Jahlil Okafor C

Here is what Philadelphia could have done had their priorities been straight

2013 #5-Nerlens Noel C/PF #11-Michael Carter-Williams PG
Again keep in this mind this was his first draft, even if there were better players these were the guys he liked.

2014 #3-Aaron Gordon PF #12-Zach Levine SG
Keep in mind Aaron Gordon went #4 to Orlando and Levine went #13 to Minnesota. These guys went 1 pick after Philly.

2015 #3-Kristaps Porzingis PF/SF
After the Lakers took D'Angelo from them Porzingis could have helped them a lot more than Okafor, especially because they already had Noel/Embiid/Saric on the team. Okafor was overkill and there were other worthy picks at much bigger positions of need.

Had they drafted those players they may not have gotten Ben Simmons this year but they would still probably would have been a lottery team (even if they were decent they could have gotten Juan Hernangomez at #15 or something). Their core for the 16-17 season could have looked something like

PG. Michael Carter-Williams
SG. Zach Levine
SF. Juan Herangomez
PF. Kristaps Porzingis/Aaron Gordon
C. Nerlens Noel

No that's not NBA championship tier but Philadelphia is MUCH worse off now for having not done this. Even if they decided they wanted to win-now they could rival the Celtics in terms of trade-able assets. They could flip two (possibly three) of those guys with some future picks and they could get any star a team is willing to trade. But as it stands nobody wants Embiid/Saric and even Okafor has low value because he's in a terrible situation. With my drafts they have talent all around the court and that was something they could have easily done because all of those players were on the board when it was their turn to pick and all of them got taken almost immediately after Philly decided not to pass on them (except for Hernangomez of course, he went #15 this year and I'm guessing that's about where Philly would have picked this year had they taken those guys).

If they had drafted the way I stated Sam Hinkie would not only still have his job, but he would be regarded as one of the better executives in the league as he oversaw a three-year rebuild that made Philly's future brighter. Instead he shamed the city of Philadelphia by tanking season after season and taking players he knew couldn't actually help the team in the short term. He kept giving away immediate assets for future ones, keeping Philly always in complete tank/rebuild mode. And I'm not certain he'll ever get another opportunity as an executive.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 01:42 PM
Bob Myers took over the Warriors in 2011-2012, they won a title in 2014-2015 with the only players left over from the takeover being David Lee (barely playing at all) and Steph Curry (he got VERY lucky there).

By the way, that 2012 team included Ish Smith in his 2nd year :)

Hinkie made a lot of great deals, and I believe he did a reasonably good job at taking who he thought was BPA in the draft ... but BPA doesn't work if year after year the players on the board at that moment don't fit. He had a TON of assets, he could have potentially saved his job if he had traded some to move around in the draft to get players who could make a team. Also I believe his lack of communication with the players and media lead in part to the players not being particularly happy ... they KNEW they were all JUST ASSETS, also they were all looking at significant bonuses when just before the deadline he traded for a few more over-priced vets for 2nd round picks and then cut them. He didn't need the 2nd round picks, but he did need the players to feel like a team.

Hinkie did a really good job in hiring a coach and winning in trades and I think his process has real merit and will be repeated before too long ... but nobody will ever do it quite so harshly from the outside perspective.

i think Hinkie had a good relationship with the players, even recently Embiid tweeted a pic of him and hinkie talking and captioned it "He died for your sins' which a lot of sixes fans have been saying since the draft. He prob should have been better with the media or had someone else represent him and the team to the media, something like that. I dont have one issue with anything he here though, yea the tank got extreme but whatever most of us knew a rebuild was coming and was needed after the Bynum crap. The dude above you is just flat out wrong thinking he had to make the team better for next season at last years trade deadline, it doesnt work that way, especially when you have at minimum 3 high caliber rookies coming in with Embiid, Saric, Simmons. In the end the league feared that this would work and how it would affect rebuilds in the future.

IndyRealist
08-01-2016, 01:43 PM
Elton Brand is the perfect example of what Hinkie failed to do....Hinkie did a great job tearing the team down and acquiring assets. He did not acquire vets (old vets that can and want to serve as mentors) that can show these kids how to play.

He deserved this offseason but I didn't trust him to have it.

I don't think he planned on keeping anyone until he landed a star. He saw them all as trade assets. Then he would trade everything away for another star, then throw a max contract at a 3rd and pick up the rest of the roster in free agency. There was no reason to coach his current players up just so they would win more games, only to increase their trade value. All of that could have happened next offseason. This summer was too screwy wih the cap jump. I've said repeatedly that's what did him in, more than anything else.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 01:45 PM
A couple things actually. First he shouldn't have so brazenly picked players he knew couldn't help his team the next year. Taking Noel was one thing because while he was going to miss the following season, he could really help a franchise. The same could be said for Embiid as well but he had already taken Noel, he didn't need Embiid on top of it. And the Sario Daric AND the Okafor picks was just overkill because now you have potentially 4 top picks who can only play 2 positions at most. Even if they all get healthy they would have to trade guys just to stop log jams. Taking players 2 years in a row he knew wasn't going to help him the following season really set the franchise back. Prospects have to be able to grow together you can't just put prospects on a team and make them win. So deliberately taking guys who were hurt set the franchise back a couple years. A quick review of his drafting history

2013: #5-Nerlens Noel C/PF #11-Michael Carter-Williams PG

2014: #3-Joel Embiid C #12-Dario Saric PF/C

2015 #3-Jahlil Okafor C

Here is what Philadelphia could have done had their priorities been straight

2013 #5-Nerlens Noel C/PF #11-Michael Carter-Williams PG
Again keep in this mind this was his first draft, even if there were better players these were the guys he liked.

2014 #3-Aaron Gordon PF #12-Zach Levine SG
Keep in mind Aaron Gordon went #4 to Orlando and Levine went #13 to Minnesota. These guys went 1 pick after Philly.

2015 #3-Kristaps Porzingis PF/SF
After the Lakers took D'Angelo from them Porzingis could have helped them a lot more than Okafor, especially because they already had Noel/Embiid/Saric on the team. Okafor was overkill and there were other worthy picks at much bigger positions of need.

Had they drafted those players they may not have gotten Ben Simmons this year but they would still probably would have been a lottery team (even if they were decent they could have gotten Juan Hernangomez at #15 or something). Their core for the 16-17 season could have looked something like

PG. Michael Carter-Williams
SG. Zach Levine
SF. Juan Herangomez
PF. Kristaps Porzingis/Aaron Gordon
C. Nerlens Noel

No that's not NBA championship tier but Philadelphia is MUCH worse off now for having not done this. Even if they decided they wanted to win-now they could rival the Celtics in terms of trade-able assets. They could flip two (possibly three) of those guys with some future picks and they could get any star a team is willing to trade. But as it stands nobody wants Embiid/Saric and even Okafor has low value because he's in a terrible situation. With my drafts they have talent all around the court and that was something they could have easily done because all of those players were on the board when it was their turn to pick and all of them got taken almost immediately after Philly decided not to pass on them (except for Hernangomez of course, he went #15 this year and I'm guessing that's about where Philly would have picked this year had they taken those guys).

If they had drafted the way I stated Sam Hinkie would not only still have his job, but he would be regarded as one of the better executives in the league as he oversaw a three-year rebuild that made Philly's future brighter. Instead he shamed the city of Philadelphia by tanking season after season and taking players he knew couldn't actually help the team in the short term. He kept giving away immediate assets for future ones, keeping Philly always in complete tank/rebuild mode. And I'm not certain he'll ever get another opportunity as an executive.

Saric is a 3/4 not a 4/5 so thats a big difference from the point you tried to make. that team you listed would suck and you wont find one person who regrets taking Embiid over the guys who went after him, the ceilings dont compare even a little. We are in way better position right now than how we would look with that group you posted, thats not even a playoff team any time soon, hell its prob not better than the starting 5 we will run this year. I dont know where you are getting no one wants Embiid, Okafor or Saric when one Saric and Embiid were never made available so you just made that up. Okafor has plenty of value but ainge tried to get cute and take advantage of our situation and BC didnt fall for it. If Boston wants to pretend they are better off with Brown than Okafor well thats on them and a big mistake

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 02:32 PM
i think Hinkie had a good relationship with the players, even recently Embiid tweeted a pic of him and hinkie talking and captioned it "He died for your sins' which a lot of sixes fans have been saying since the draft. He prob should have been better with the media or had someone else represent him and the team to the media, something like that. I dont have one issue with anything he here though, yea the tank got extreme but whatever most of us knew a rebuild was coming and was needed after the Bynum crap. The dude above you is just flat out wrong thinking he had to make the team better for next season at last years trade deadline, it doesnt work that way, especially when you have at minimum 3 high caliber rookies coming in with Embiid, Saric, Simmons. In the end the league feared that this would work and how it would affect rebuilds in the future.

You say Im flat out wrong cause I believe Hinkie was supposed to do something at the trading deadline. That it doesnt work that way.

He did get the ax a couple of weeks after the trading deadline where he didnt do anything. Not talking about a blockbuster, just something. An act of good faith that he will attempt to put a winning team on the court.

The league forced a babysitter on him for crying out loud. Apparently it does work like that.

When the league added revenue sharing its every teams business when one team isn't pulling their weight.

Tony_Starks
08-01-2016, 02:47 PM
I wish Hinkie could land in Houston in some capacity.

Him, Morey, and Antoni under one roof would be the gift that keeps on giving....maybe bring on David Kahn as special advisor/ comic relief!

TylerSL
08-01-2016, 02:56 PM
Saric is a 3/4 not a 4/5 so thats a big difference from the point you tried to make. that team you listed would suck and you wont find one person who regrets taking Embiid over the guys who went after him, the ceilings dont compare even a little. We are in way better position right now than how we would look with that group you posted, thats not even a playoff team any time soon, hell its prob not better than the starting 5 we will run this year. I dont know where you are getting no one wants Embiid, Okafor or Saric when one Saric and Embiid were never made available so you just made that up. Okafor has plenty of value but ainge tried to get cute and take advantage of our situation and BC didnt fall for it. If Boston wants to pretend they are better off with Brown than Okafor well thats on them and a big mistake

First of all you guys are **** right now. You JUST came off a 10-72 season anyway. I'm not saying you guys would be good with that scenario, but you would NOT BE 10-72. You said not one person would regret taking Embiid over Aaron Gordon??? JOEL EMBIID HAS NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN A GAME. Aaron Gordon averaged 14/10 per 36 last season and has drastically improved his game since coming into the league. Arguably the biggest thing that has held Gordon back is the lack of minutes he gets in Orlando (averages 21.3 minutes/game career) and that wouldn't be a problem with you guys, so he'd likely be even better. One thing you need to remember, you have to have a floor before you can have a ceiling. Who knows if Embiid will ever live up to his potential. Is he even going to be ready for the start of next season? Zach Lavine is also very underrated because aside from being super athletic and making the dunk contest great again/winning the dunk contest both years he's been in the league, he shot 39% from 3 last year. And don't forget how much Brett Brown would help him and he'd be able to develop his game better in Philadelphia than he will in Minnesota behind Towns and Wiggins. Both Gordon and LaVine would be better players in Philly than they are with their current teams.

I said "nobody want's Embiid and Saric" because they have never played a game in the league. I'm not saying Philly is trying to trade them, but they've been drafted for years now and have never stepped foot on the court. I agree Okafor is really good, infact I believe he's the best player you guys have drafted, but you cannot argue his value is down from what it was when he got drafted. The off-court stuff and lack of defense has affected it. I"m not saying it's right, I'm just stating it as a fact because it is. By the way, it's probably better you didn't trade Okafor to Boston because you guys are better with Simmons/Okafor/Noel than you would have been with Dunn/Simmons/Noel because Simmons can handle PG duties throughout the game. I know ultimately you guys landed Simmons, but you could have avoided being 47-199 the last 3 seasons. Unless Simmons becomes the next Lebron/KD level player he probably won't be worth 3 years of tanking.

Scoots
08-01-2016, 03:16 PM
I still can't say positive things about embiid or saris considering when they were drafted and how many nba minutes they have played. But the dream lives on.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 03:33 PM
You say Im flat out wrong cause I believe Hinkie was supposed to do something at the trading deadline. That it doesnt work that way.

He did get the ax a couple of weeks after the trading deadline where he didnt do anything. Not talking about a blockbuster, just something. An act of good faith that he will attempt to put a winning team on the court.

The league forced a babysitter on him for crying out loud. Apparently it does work like that.

When the league added revenue sharing its every teams business when one team isn't pulling their weight.

like i said why make a minor, non-impactful move and waste assets when you have youre best 3 coming in the next season? You dont lose trades just bcuz your peers dont like you, its business.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 03:36 PM
I still can't say positive things about embiid or saris considering when they were drafted and how many nba minutes they have played. But the dream lives on.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

i get it with Embiid but its not like Saric hasnt been playing some really good ball overseas. He carried is country to qualify for the Olympics. Im not even the biggest Saric fan but his play in the qualifiers def intrigued me more. for the record Embiid is healthy, cleared and expected to play on opening night.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 03:39 PM
First of all you guys are **** right now. You JUST came off a 10-72 season anyway. I'm not saying you guys would be good with that scenario, but you would NOT BE 10-72. You said not one person would regret taking Embiid over Aaron Gordon??? JOEL EMBIID HAS NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN A GAME. Aaron Gordon averaged 14/10 per 36 last season and has drastically improved his game since coming into the league. Arguably the biggest thing that has held Gordon back is the lack of minutes he gets in Orlando (averages 21.3 minutes/game career) and that wouldn't be a problem with you guys, so he'd likely be even better. One thing you need to remember, you have to have a floor before you can have a ceiling. Who knows if Embiid will ever live up to his potential. Is he even going to be ready for the start of next season? Zach Lavine is also very underrated because aside from being super athletic and making the dunk contest great again/winning the dunk contest both years he's been in the league, he shot 39% from 3 last year. And don't forget how much Brett Brown would help him and he'd be able to develop his game better in Philadelphia than he will in Minnesota behind Towns and Wiggins. Both Gordon and LaVine would be better players in Philly than they are with their current teams.

I said "nobody want's Embiid and Saric" because they have never played a game in the league. I'm not saying Philly is trying to trade them, but they've been drafted for years now and have never stepped foot on the court. I agree Okafor is really good, infact I believe he's the best player you guys have drafted, but you cannot argue his value is down from what it was when he got drafted. The off-court stuff and lack of defense has affected it. I"m not saying it's right, I'm just stating it as a fact because it is. By the way, it's probably better you didn't trade Okafor to Boston because you guys are better with Simmons/Okafor/Noel than you would have been with Dunn/Simmons/Noel because Simmons can handle PG duties throughout the game. I know ultimately you guys landed Simmons, but you could have avoided being 47-199 the last 3 seasons. Unless Simmons becomes the next Lebron/KD level player he probably won't be worth 3 years of tanking.

you are just listing a bunch of hypothetical though with only one that was realistic but again Embiids potential even after not playing for 2 years is still miles above Gordons. I much rather win 10 games and get the #1 pick then 30 and pick in the 7-10 range when the goal is to rebuild and develop talent.

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 04:33 PM
like i said why make a minor, non-impactful move and waste assets when you have youre best 3 coming in the next season? You dont lose trades just bcuz your peers dont like you, its business.
You said it - its business. Hinkie wasnt holding up his business end. Not because he couldnt, he simply refused to. Now he's out of a job.

TheDish87
08-01-2016, 04:41 PM
You said it - its business. Hinkie wasnt holding up his business end. Not because he couldnt, he simply refused to. Now he's out of a job.

he didnt quit bcuz other GM's didnt like him lol. Its not his job to help other teams who have incompetent FO's. He also did Houston a favor in the KJ for Canaan deal, only deal he lost in 3 years even though it turned out minor if not irrelevant.

McAllen Tx
08-01-2016, 05:30 PM
he didnt quit bcuz other GM's didnt like him lol. Its not his job to help other teams who have incompetent FO's. He also did Houston a favor in the KJ for Canaan deal, only deal he lost in 3 years even though it turned out minor if not irrelevant.

Where have I ever said Hinkie quit cause other GMs didnt like him. Not one of my posts even remotely says that.

There were NBA owners (not GMs) openly complaining about Philly not pulling their weight. Money was down when Philly came to town. Philly ranked dead last in road attendance.

When NBA owners are losing money cause of a specific reason (in this case Hinkies plan) they fix the problem. NBA owners are not gonna lose out on some money cause of a GM.

Hinkie had the means to fix the problem by putting a better team on the court but he refused to. Resigned my ***, they let him save face by resigning but he got canned.

KingJudah
08-01-2016, 06:24 PM
Hinkie walked away because the 76ers dumb *** owner wanted to bring in guy's to look over his shoulder. In my mind I will forever be thankful for the job hinkie did for my Sixers. He put us back on the map and set us up for a bright future because we're loaded with talent and lottery picks.

KingJudah
08-01-2016, 06:28 PM
Where have I ever said Hinkie quit cause other GMs didnt like him. Not one of my posts even remotely says that.

There were NBA owners (not GMs) openly complaining about Philly not pulling their weight. Money was down when Philly came to town. Philly ranked dead last in road attendance.

When NBA owners are losing money cause of a specific reason (in this case Hinkies plan) they fix the problem. NBA owners are not gonna lose out on some money cause of a GM.

Hinkie had the means to fix the problem by putting a better team on the court but he refused to. Resigned my ***, they let him save face by resigning but he got canned.

Too hell with what nba owners think, Hinkle did what was best for his organization and put the sixers in a position to be a dynasty going forward, had he went out and signed mediocre players and been a mediocre team the Sixers wouldn't have simmons, embid, okafor. Hinkie did the right thing and thats the bottom line.

Scoots
08-01-2016, 09:20 PM
i get it with Embiid but its not like Saric hasnt been playing some really good ball overseas. He carried is country to qualify for the Olympics. Im not even the biggest Saric fan but his play in the qualifiers def intrigued me more. for the record Embiid is healthy, cleared and expected to play on opening night.

Both were drafted in 2014 by a team in desperate need of players and talent and neither has played a minute of NBA ball. I'm not saying they suck, I'm saying I'm reserving judgement.

Embiid has be said to be healthy before, and from what I've heard this version of Embiid healthy is a strict minutes limitation and not playing back to back games.

FWIW, If I'm Hinkie in 2014 I make the same draft picks he made ... it's just been bad luck with Embiid, but Saric should have been here last year at least.

JasonJohnHorn
08-02-2016, 12:00 AM
Yea but the system is flawed from the start with superstars only wanting to team up or go to great teams. You cant expect teams to keep trying and failing because of the system in place all while being stuck in mediocrity and expect them to do the same thing over and over.

Whats worse exactly? The sixers selling their tickets dirt cheap and telling people they are tanking and being open or what the lakers did where everybody knew they were tanking and they basically robbed their fans? Hinkie did what other Gms have done forever he was just open about and never lied about it. What could have saved his job? I guess not being open about it and signing a terrible player or 2 and lose anyway so they can overprice merchandise and tickets?

What do ticket prices have to do with anything? It is market demand that sets the prices. The Lakers are the Lakers. People want to see Kobe play in his last season; that is worth a high ticket price. If people will pay, why would you lower the price? Fans set the price; not the ownership.

As for 'superstars only wanting to team up with great team', remember that the Thunders MADE a great team THROUGH the draft, and then sent players away (Harden, Sefolosha, Ibaka, Martin), and KD went to the team who kept the great team they drafted. That isn't a flawed system, that is penny-pinching ownership not wanting to pay to keep four all-star calibre players on the same team (KD, Westy, Harden and Ibaka). Had they still had Harden, they would have beat the Warriors this year. And like have already won a title. Don't blame KD going to GSW on a flawed system when it is actually just a cheap owner. The Suns did the same thing after they put together one of the best starting line-ups in league history.

The Mavs. The Spurs. The Pistons. Boston. And yes, the Warriors. Up until this past season, these teams build through the draft, trades, and mid-level free agent signings, and they have combined to win 9 of the last 16 titles. And you might as well throw one of Miami's 3 titles onto that list, because they is how they won the Shaq/Wade title. As for the Lakers, yes, they got one free agent signing (Shaq) that put them over the top, but that wasn't a super team at the time. What's more, the second set of title runs was not the result of free agent signings, but trades (Odam and Gasl) and draft picks (Kobe and Bynum). So there's another 5 titles of the last 16.

That means only 2 titles, the two Heat/LBJ titles, were the result of 'super team signings'. Every other title in the last 16 years was put together through the draft, trades, and free agent signings, and only two major free agents (LBJ signing with Cleveland and Shaq signing with LA--both of which did not sign with 'super teams') are included in there. You want to go back even further: The Bulls, Rockets, Pistons, Celtics and Lakers of the 80's and 90's were all build through the draft and trades as well.

So yeah... the system, though flawed, is not Hinkie's problem.


Super team? DRAFT IT. Then the free agents will come. The Warriors didn't just dump salaries and sign three MVP candidates like Miami did. They scouted player and drafted the best available players in every draft. The Thunder did the same, they just $#!t the bed because they were too cheap.

What would I rather him do? Sign players with all that cap space. Draft somebody other than a center with his first pick for three straight seasons. Scout players in the later first and second rounds. Make the team better.

You don't have to lose 75+ games to have a top five draft pick. That is over kill. Intentionally putting out a horrible product is against the spirit of the game.


His teams were historically bad. All he focused on was asset acquisition, and he didn't know how to use them.

TheDish87
08-02-2016, 08:37 AM
Both were drafted in 2014 by a team in desperate need of players and talent and neither has played a minute of NBA ball. I'm not saying they suck, I'm saying I'm reserving judgement.

Embiid has be said to be healthy before, and from what I've heard this version of Embiid healthy is a strict minutes limitation and not playing back to back games.

FWIW, If I'm Hinkie in 2014 I make the same draft picks he made ... it's just been bad luck with Embiid, but Saric should have been here last year at least.

actually at Hinkies post draft presser he specifically said that Saric would not be here for at least 2 years. Low and behold after 2 years he is here, we also brought in MCW that year so its not like we didnt bring in any new talent from that draft, we also found some 2nd rd and undrafted guys worthwhile. Embiids setback seemed to be growth spurt preventing the screw in his foot from staying put and if that really is true it gives a little more hope. Assuming there are no setbacks in the first half of the season the restrictions will come off for the most part post AS break. As I excited as I am for both these guys my judgement is reserved too but from what we get to hear about and see its hard not to be optimistic about both of these guys, ya know.

Ariza's Better
08-02-2016, 09:45 AM
I wish Hinkie could land in Houston in some capacity.

Him, Morey, and Antoni under one roof would be the gift that keeps on giving....maybe bring on David Kahn as special advisor/ comic relief!
Why would Hinkie coming back be so bad? He helped with the Lowry deal and signing Bevs. Everyone loved him in Houston.

Tony_Starks
08-02-2016, 10:18 AM
Why would Hinkie coming back be so bad? He helped with the Lowry deal and signing Bevs. Everyone loved him in Houston.

Didn't say it would be bad, just remarkably entertaining

Scoots
08-02-2016, 02:38 PM
draft picks (Kobe and Bynum).

Lakers didn't draft Kobe. But I agree that the Warriors built the "right" way since the system is built to build a team with draft picks and mid-grade free agents so you can build a foundation where a big name free agent puts you over the top. That said, winning teams have been built every way possible, but teams built on free agents tend to have shorter runs at the top.

STRIKERC
08-02-2016, 03:32 PM
I'm Hinkie, i'm a VISIONARY. I do not believe in doing what everyone is doing.
I dream big even if it comes at a cost of me losing my job. At the end of the day i believe in something greater an NBA career and a few more wins.

Some bozos on an Internet forum will occasionally start a thread just to talk about me. Nobody is opening up a thread to talk about Dennis Lindsey. ESPN writers aren't chasing down John Hammond for exclusive interviews . Just wait until my 30 for 30 comes out in 20 years.

Do things differently? You're kidding me?

The NBA is ridding of me? Cool...now I'm a cult hero among my fans. Chances are i get more followers when the team starts winning. I am Hinkie! I have created a lasting impression on your mind whether you choose to believe it or not.

Forever we trust the process.

Ariza's Better
08-03-2016, 01:44 AM
Didn't say it would be bad, just remarkably entertaining
Don't see how it would be entertaining then. But whatever.

BKLYNpigeon
08-03-2016, 01:55 AM
If Hinkie Drafted Porzingis over Okafor he would still have his job.

BKLYNpigeon
08-03-2016, 01:57 AM
The Sacramento Kings need to Hire Hinkie.

Vlade is a joke.

Alayla
08-03-2016, 09:10 AM
If Hinkie Drafted Porzingis over Okafor he would still have his job.

yup Porzingis or Booker he lost a lot of people with that yes it was a BPA thing but being the 3rd center it was just to much

TheDish87
08-03-2016, 09:25 AM
yup Porzingis or Booker he lost a lot of people with that yes it was a BPA thing but being the 3rd center it was just to much

double post

TheDish87
08-03-2016, 09:26 AM
yup Porzingis or Booker he lost a lot of people with that yes it was a BPA thing but being the 3rd center it was just to much

i dont think so. its not like KP is better than Oak. Thats still TBD. Also rumors went around that hinkie did want Porz and the ownership wanted Okafor. Booker was never an option and has became pretty overrated on this board. Hes gonna be a nice player, maybe a few all-star games but hes no star.

warfelg
08-03-2016, 10:50 AM
yup Porzingis or Booker he lost a lot of people with that yes it was a BPA thing but being the 3rd center it was just to much

Yup. And we've talked about it in our little nook of PSD:
Last year was not a year to go BPA. Last year was worth it to take a little risk to have a tad better long term fit.

ewing
08-04-2016, 09:09 PM
making an attempt to win basketball games