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Shammyguy3
07-30-2016, 11:33 AM
Here we go, kicking off #13. Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. James Harden
10. Draymond Green
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Blake Griffin
13. ????

LivinLakers
07-30-2016, 11:37 AM
Klay Thompson. He should already be up there, but oh well.

Tony_Starks
07-30-2016, 11:47 AM
Kevin Love

Shammyguy3
07-30-2016, 11:49 AM
Here's a comparison of Butler, Lillard, Irving, Melo, Aldridge, and Klay

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=butleji01&y2=2016&p2=lillada01&y3=2016&p3=thompkl01&y4=2016&p4=irvinky01&y5=2016&p5=aldrila01&y6=2016&p6=anthoca01

Butler is first in BPM (2nd in both OBPM and DBPM)
Butler is first in ORtg
Butler is second in WS/48, behind LMA who plays for a far better team
Butler is 2nd in VORP
Butler is 3rd in PER
Butler is the best defender of that group (some people might think Klay, and while Butler didn't defend as well as he did the years previously, it's only because he had to take on a much increased role offensively)
The only player who really is a superior passer is Lillard
Butler can carry a greater minutes load than any of these players as well


This has to be Butler here

HOLD_THIS_L
07-30-2016, 12:26 PM
Kevin Love
Lol.

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Chronz
07-30-2016, 01:09 PM
What are people expecting of Marc Gasol? Cuz if hes at 100% health and has one of his best years, hes easily above many already listed IMO, I think a more realistic expectation is hoping he reverts to form and just continues with a ho hum prime year, in which case he should be getting some love. He was the difference between the lottery and a HCA caliber team for Memphis.

Chronz
07-30-2016, 01:16 PM
What do we make of Lillard vs Aldridge? When they were on the same team, the pecking order was clear in terms of shots but Portland has always had Lillard as the face and exciting player to watch.

smith&wesson
07-30-2016, 02:28 PM
Jimmy

Dade County
07-30-2016, 03:08 PM
This one is tough, i have to place,LMA, Klay, Irving, butler & Lillard on a bottom 3 team; & think about who would make that team actually better. In wins & team play.

Bruno
07-30-2016, 03:49 PM
What are people expecting of Marc Gasol? Cuz if hes at 100% health and has one of his best years, hes easily above many already listed IMO, I think a more realistic expectation is hoping he reverts to form and just continues with a ho hum prime year, in which case he should be getting some love. He was the difference between the lottery and a HCA caliber team for Memphis.

hell be 32 by January and is recovering from a broken foot. I've been a huge Marc fan for years but it's going to require a healthy season by him and Chandler Parsons and the revival of Randolph next to them for Memphis to return to form. if either of those guys are injures it's over. and they get injured. I think last season was the beginning of Marcs post-prime.

when Marc passed Dwight years ago I was there arguing for it. But at this point, I'm going to lean the other way and suggest that his days of dominance are over. he'll remain around all-star caliber if he recovers and strings together a successful season or two, but at this point Karl Anthony Towns is a better basketball player. He should be nominated, his numbers blow Gasols out of the water, even as a rookie when comparing him to Marc pre broken foot stat lines.

http://bkref.com/tiny/iTHS0

Really like Marc though.

I mean statistically, there is zero argument for Dwight or Gasol over Towns in 2016.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zsbmj

Shammy, what say you? Am I drinking that statistical kool aid too hard here? Them are the numbers.

Bruno
07-30-2016, 03:53 PM
Nominate: Karl Towns

Vote: Klay Thompson or Jimmy Butler.

Damian Lillard is a one way basketball player. Brilliant of offense (you have to respect how he managed his TS% last season on that team of over achievers. .56 TS% with that little talent is really impressive for a PG).

But he's a one way basketball player. he is a liability in 50% of the game.

Bruno
07-30-2016, 03:55 PM
vote Butler. i think he could be just slightly better than Klay, and it looks like Butler will challenge the Damian vote here.

Bruno
07-30-2016, 03:58 PM
I start voting Towns as soon as Klay and Buckets are off the board. he's going to have an incredible season- its going to look dumb to leave him out of the top 20.

Vee-Rex
07-30-2016, 04:30 PM
I'm pretty big on Klay but I completely forgot about Butler and I took a look at the numbers again and I gotta go with Butler right here. Perhaps Klay on the next one.

LaLa_Land
07-30-2016, 04:40 PM
Butler vs Klay here.

Butler is stronger and I place him in that rare, monster on-ball defender category. With the likes of Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green, and LeBron. But he's an inconsistent shooter at best.

Klay's shooting - whether it be spotting up or off the dribble - is positively transcendent. He's also in the nearby, subsequent category of stout defenders with Nic Batum, Paul George and Victor Oladipo.

I say Klay. Though Butler had a higher PER, I think Klay's attritbutes allow for him to seamlessly become a feature player on any team in the league. He was the playing-time-adjusted league leader in "points per touch" with .468. Jimmy Butler was way lower at .306.

If you consider their defensive capabilities to be a wash, it's quite clear Klay is the better player.

Shammyguy3
07-30-2016, 05:13 PM
hell be 32 by January and is recovering from a broken foot. I've been a huge Marc fan for years but it's going to require a healthy season by him and Chandler Parsons and the revival of Randolph next to them for Memphis to return to form. if either of those guys are injures it's over. and they get injured. I think last season was the beginning of Marcs post-prime.

when Marc passed Dwight years ago I was there arguing for it. But at this point, I'm going to lean the other way and suggest that his days of dominance are over. he'll remain around all-star caliber if he recovers and strings together a successful season or two, but at this point Karl Anthony Towns is a better basketball player. He should be nominated, his numbers blow Gasols out of the water, even as a rookie when comparing him to Marc pre broken foot stat lines.

http://bkref.com/tiny/iTHS0

Really like Marc though.

I mean statistically, there is zero argument for Dwight or Gasol over Towns in 2016.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zsbmj

Shammy, what say you? Am I drinking that statistical kool aid too hard here? Them are the numbers.

definitely think you can argue for him soon; i left him off this poll but the next one i can definitely put him up there


Butler vs Klay here.

Butler is stronger and I place him in that rare, monster on-ball defender category. With the likes of Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green, and LeBron. But he's an inconsistent shooter at best.

Klay's shooting - whether it be spotting up or off the dribble - is positively transcendent. He's also in the nearby, subsequent category of stout defenders with Nic Batum, Paul George and Victor Oladipo.

I say Klay. Though Butler had a higher PER, I think Klay's attritbutes allow for him to seamlessly become a feature player on any team in the league. He was the playing-time-adjusted league leader in "points per touch" with .468. Jimmy Butler was way lower at .306.

If you consider their defensive capabilities to be a wash, it's quite clear Klay is the better player.

Butler is a better playmaker and rebounder, and you yourself agree he's a tick above Klay defensively. He doesn't have the shooting capability that Klay does, but let's remember who Klay has around him for those open shots:

Green 7.4apg
Curry 6.7apg
Iguodala 3.4apg
Livingston 3.0apg
Bogut 2.3apg

all players with higher assists totals for the year. If you want to look at assist rates, Klay comes in at 11th on the team. It's a team of gifted passers which helps Klay out a lot. Klay was assisted on 80.8% of his made field goals this season. He's perhaps the greatest catch & shoot player of all time.

Butler doesn't have the skillset at shooting as Klay, but he definitely doesn't have teammates capable of taking stress off of him. This past year, Butler lead the team in assists per game and was 5th in assist rate. He was only assisted on 47.8% of his made shots last year.

All of that, plus Butler was more efficient than Klay:

Butler: 56.2ts% 116 ORtg 21.3 PER 3.7 VORP 0.177 WS/48 3.6 OBPM 4.0 BPM
Klay: 59.7ts% 112 ORtg 18.6 PER 1.8 VORP 0.144 WS/48 2.9 OBPM 0.7 BPM


Butler's last month of play really brings those numbers down too (he rushed back to try and get the Bulls to the playoffs); before his injury he was posting 22.4/5.2/4.3 56.9ts% 117 ORtg

So, taking everything into account I take Butler easily. If I simply need a player that can fit into an offensive system that has multiple ball-handlers, then it's Klay rather easily. Klay is better at what the Warriors need out of their shooting guard than what Butler would provide them, but I don't think Klay could match Butler's production without that amazing cast of passers.

Vee-Rex
07-30-2016, 06:47 PM
definitely think you can argue for him soon; i left him off this poll but the next one i can definitely put him up there



Butler is a better playmaker and rebounder, and you yourself agree he's a tick above Klay defensively. He doesn't have the shooting capability that Klay does, but let's remember who Klay has around him for those open shots:

Green 7.4apg
Curry 6.7apg
Iguodala 3.4apg
Livingston 3.0apg
Bogut 2.3apg

all players with higher assists totals for the year. If you want to look at assist rates, Klay comes in at 11th on the team. It's a team of gifted passers which helps Klay out a lot. Klay was assisted on 80.8% of his made field goals this season. He's perhaps the greatest catch & shoot player of all time.

Butler doesn't have the skillset at shooting as Klay, but he definitely doesn't have teammates capable of taking stress off of him. This past year, Butler lead the team in assists per game and was 5th in assist rate. He was only assisted on 47.8% of his made shots last year.

All of that, plus Butler was more efficient than Klay:

Butler: 56.2ts% 116 ORtg 21.3 PER 3.7 VORP 0.177 WS/48 3.6 OBPM 4.0 BPM
Klay: 59.7ts% 112 ORtg 18.6 PER 1.8 VORP 0.144 WS/48 2.9 OBPM 0.7 BPM


Butler's last month of play really brings those numbers down too (he rushed back to try and get the Bulls to the playoffs); before his injury he was posting 22.4/5.2/4.3 56.9ts% 117 ORtg

So, taking everything into account I take Butler easily. If I simply need a player that can fit into an offensive system that has multiple ball-handlers, then it's Klay rather easily. Klay is better at what the Warriors need out of their shooting guard than what Butler would provide them, but I don't think Klay could match Butler's production without that amazing cast of passers.

This.

Also, if we go by DBPM numbers (since we like to use that to massacre certain players defensive efforts), Klay Thompson is a worse defender than Kyrie Irving over the last 2 years.

We know that's not true, but I do think Butler is a bit more than just a "tick" better defensively than Klay. He's just not surrounded by people like Iggy/Green/Bogut to clean up after him.

Butler > Klay, and that's with Butler playing off a pretty bad injury which lowered his stats, and that's with Butler being the first banana on his team.

Chronz
07-30-2016, 06:55 PM
Voting Butler then

HOLD_THIS_L
07-30-2016, 08:25 PM
Klay Thompson's D reminds me of Kobe's. Good yes but not elite as made out to be.

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cmellofan15
07-30-2016, 11:34 PM
Paul George for me

ewing
07-31-2016, 02:33 AM
Klay Thompson's D reminds me of Kobe's. Good yes but not elite as made out to be.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


i disagree Kobe was an elite defender. he didn't always it but when he did i think he went from really good to pretty special/ PG is not the defender that Kobe was. unfortunately injury has has got in the way for him

NYKnickFanatic
07-31-2016, 02:43 AM
I meant to click Klay but accidentally clicked Melo.

Anyway a mod could change that?

allSUAVE
07-31-2016, 12:07 PM
Jimmy butler is better than Carmelo Now , lmaoo

Shammyguy3
07-31-2016, 12:13 PM
I meant to click Klay but accidentally clicked Melo.

Anyway a mod could change that?

Sure

Chronz
07-31-2016, 12:39 PM
Jimmy butler is better than Carmelo Now , lmaoo

Well hes better than Klay and you voted for him above Melo

allSUAVE
07-31-2016, 03:55 PM
I'm convinced Psd users Don't play or watch Basketball

Chronz
07-31-2016, 07:02 PM
I'm convinced Psd users Don't play or watch Basketball

Im convinced you dont watch or understand NBA basketball. The rest doesn't matter since you're not in the NBA.

allSUAVE
07-31-2016, 08:20 PM
Im convinced you dont watch or understand NBA basketball. The rest doesn't matter since you're not in the NBA.

Well u guys are ****ing dum , half the guys voted above melo shouldnt b , like seriously draymond green top 10 over Melo ****ing laughable ..Only PSD I SWEARR....in what way is Blake griffin and green better???

Chronz
07-31-2016, 08:25 PM
Well u guys are ****ing dum , half the guys voted above melo shouldnt b , like seriously draymond green top 10 over Melo ****ing laughable ..Only PSD I SWEARR....in what way is Blake griffin and green better???

In ways that are objective and not homerish. It must be hard but I implore you to watch basketball when the Knicks aren't playing, you wont be so blind if you open your horizons.

allSUAVE
07-31-2016, 09:36 PM
In ways that are objective and not homerish. It must be hard but I implore you to watch basketball when the Knicks aren't playing, you wont be so blind if you open your horizons.

I watch alot of NBA basketball man , and its no way in HELL green, klay thompson , blake griffin and butler better than Melo 😂😂

Chronz
07-31-2016, 10:10 PM
I watch alot of NBA basketball man , and its no way in HELL green, klay thompson , blake griffin and butler better than Melo 😂😂

I watch even more, you're wrong

Shammyguy3
08-01-2016, 09:20 AM
I watch alot of NBA basketball man , and its no way in HELL green, klay thompson , blake griffin and butler better than Melo 😂😂

want to try explaining why those players aren't better?

Chronz
08-01-2016, 10:05 AM
If we just discount Gasol returning to form, we should start debating the Lillard, Irving, Klay bunch. I would have Lowry on there but I will give Irving his playoff due. Im assuming he sustains his level of play all year by this point next season and I hope that Lowry finally has a good playoff run to make it a debate again.

Vee-Rex
08-01-2016, 01:33 PM
I watch alot of NBA basketball man , and its no way in HELL green, klay thompson , blake griffin and butler better than Melo 😂😂

I'm a pretty big Melo fan but I don't think he's better than any of those guys. I'd love for you to explain how Melo is better.

Gone are the days where we rank players solely based on the "eye-test" and how versatile their scoring ability is.

Tony_Starks
08-01-2016, 02:33 PM
I'm convinced Psd users Don't play or watch Basketball

I believe the vast majority probably just check highlights, stat sheets, and maybe do the tnt games.

That being said you'd still be very hard pressed to sell me Melo over somebody like Dray or Jimmy Butler.

This isn't the good ol Denver Nugget, lackluster D but may bust you for 40 plus Melo.

This is the can't even make the Knicks respectable in the JV league, even more lackluster D give you the occasional low percentage 30 plus Melo.

Those other guys bring it on both ends on a nightly basis, plus the occasional explosion.

DR_1
08-01-2016, 02:57 PM
Blake before Butler? Come on guys :)

Chronz
08-01-2016, 03:53 PM
Blake before Butler? Come on guys :)
Hes never had as good of a RS. Hes never had as good of a post season, both in terms of wins and individual play.

Bigbadmoffo
08-01-2016, 04:43 PM
hell be 32 by January and is recovering from a broken foot. I've been a huge Marc fan for years but it's going to require a healthy season by him and Chandler Parsons and the revival of Randolph next to them for Memphis to return to form. if either of those guys are injures it's over. and they get injured. I think last season was the beginning of Marcs post-prime.

when Marc passed Dwight years ago I was there arguing for it. But at this point, I'm going to lean the other way and suggest that his days of dominance are over. he'll remain around all-star caliber if he recovers and strings together a successful season or two, but at this point Karl Anthony Towns is a better basketball player. He should be nominated, his numbers blow Gasols out of the water, even as a rookie when comparing him to Marc pre broken foot stat lines.

http://bkref.com/tiny/iTHS0

Really like Marc though.

I mean statistically, there is zero argument for Dwight or Gasol over Towns in 2016.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zsbmj

Shammy, what say you? Am I drinking that statistical kool aid too hard here? Them are the numbers.

The guy that made the list needs to actually do research. Derozan is over a few of these guys for sure.

latinofire21
08-02-2016, 11:19 AM
I agree with you allsuave. I don't even take this poll seriously because the OP listed the guys he felt should be in the category to be voted upon. Melo wasn't even a poll option until this round. I do agree Melo is better than Blake Griffin. Klay Thompson is a stretch but they play different styles. Saying Melo cant carry a team into the playoffs as an argument should be countered by Blake having Paul and Jordan with a solid role player squad added around them. Klay has Curry, Draymond, and now Durant.

Melo creates his opportunities, he can spot up, he has been a better passer this past year setting up teammates and hes picked it up on the defensive end. A lot of the reason why he wasn't even a poll option is the Knick bias on these forums. Everyone wants to through out analytics to argue their points but they are arguing players who are on already stacked teams. Same reason why a guy like Lillard and John Wall are getting no votes. If you wanted to make this a legit poll their should be 25 options from the very first ranking and continued down. The logical choices from each team should be listed regardless of how you may personally feel about their ranking.
To me this poll is a complete joke so don't sweat it suave I am sure when the Knicks start winning a lot of games this season the argument for Melo is he had Noah, Rose, and Porzingis carry him all the way to the finish line so its w/e at this point.

Chronz
08-02-2016, 12:08 PM
I agree with you allsuave. I don't even take this poll seriously because the OP listed the guys he felt should be in the category to be voted upon. Melo wasn't even a poll option until this round. I do agree Melo is better than Blake Griffin. Klay Thompson is a stretch but they play different styles. Saying Melo cant carry a team into the playoffs as an argument should be countered by Blake having Paul and Jordan with a solid role player squad added around them. Klay has Curry, Draymond, and now Durant.
Has anyone even mentioned leading your team to the playoffs? I must've missed it but I thought we were just talking about talent and production but of course how they have proven to lead teams still matters. Put it this way, you want to bring up wins and losses so you can discount their superior teammates, but then we look at the stats and we see that those individual players are putting better individual numbers. So then you might want to blame their teammates again, only the numbers these players put up tend to go up when they are on their own. Really what your left with is the opinion that Melo COULD possibly accomplish something as impressive in either a team or individual context. BTW, did you see that stretch where Blake played without CP3? Did you see us losing the way the Knicks have been?


Melo creates his opportunities, he can spot up, he has been a better passer this past year setting up teammates and hes picked it up on the defensive end.
Melo creates more misses as well, other guys can spot up better or are even better outlet options without the range, him being a better passer ignores his decline in other areas, particularly with his waning athleticism and spare me the talk of his improved defense, hes still EASILY the least impressive defender I've seen covered here.


A lot of the reason why he wasn't even a poll option is the Knick bias on these forums. Everyone wants to through out analytics to argue their points but they are arguing players who are on already stacked teams.
Im confused, on one hand you argue its a Knicks bias on the other its the stats. Are you saying the 2 groups are both fighting to keep the Knicks down, I really dont see why you have a problem with people using more information to form their opinion. Like look at your excuse, stacked teams? Some guys numbers go up when they play with less talented teammates dont they? Stick to the alleged "Knick bias" and keep the objective analysis out of your complaint because nobody is going to believe your word over theirs and the numbers that back them. Especially when you're not really refuting stats to begin with.


Same reason why a guy like Lillard and John Wall are getting no votes.
Lillard is getting votes but maybe its because they are not worthy and superior players lay ahead of them.


If you wanted to make this a legit poll their should be 25 options from the very first ranking and continued down. The logical choices from each team should be listed regardless of how you may personally feel about their ranking.
To me this poll is a complete joke so don't sweat it suave I am sure when the Knicks start winning a lot of games this season the argument for Melo is he had Noah, Rose, and Porzingis carry him all the way to the finish line so its w/e at this point.

Whats your excuse going to be that even on the off chance that the Knicks do start winning, that Melo still isn't producing at a level on par with Blake? I find your preemptive whining hilarious, you began this very thread by using teammates against guys who are in fact winning AND producing at a higher level but you're gonna play the victim in the hypothetical situation where Melo is being unfairly punished for his teammates?



Melo isn't that good and the guys not on the list yet are not there for a reason, you guys need to catch up and stop being homers. Blake doesn't have to apologize for being more productive/efficient, more of a winner, beasting in the playoffs and receiving just due in his accolades (when was the last time Melo made an All-League team or got an MVP vote?).

Come up with something better than, "dont pay attention to W's or the numbers, IM telling YOU whats wat"

WaDe03
08-02-2016, 05:01 PM
I'm convinced Psd users Don't play or watch Basketball

I agree with this, people who played definitely have a different mindset and understanding of the game but it is what it is. I think Melo is better than both Klay and Green but the excel in their situation so they are viewed as better than players they really aren't better than.

cmellofan15
08-02-2016, 06:55 PM
I agree with this, people who played definitely have a different mindset and understanding of the game but it is what it is. I think Melo is better than both Klay and Green but the excel in their situation so they are viewed as better than players they really aren't better than.

LMAO yeah your guys' pick up games at the YMCA make you guys NBA gurus hahahaha

latinofire21
08-02-2016, 09:43 PM
Has anyone even mentioned leading your team to the playoffs? I must've missed it but I thought we were just talking about talent and production but of course how they have proven to lead teams still matters. Put it this way, you want to bring up wins and losses so you can discount their superior teammates, but then we look at the stats and we see that those individual players are putting better individual numbers. So then you might want to blame their teammates again, only the numbers these players put up tend to go up when they are on their own. Really what your left with is the opinion that Melo COULD possibly accomplish something as impressive in either a team or individual context. BTW, did you see that stretch where Blake played without CP3? Did you see us losing the way the Knicks have been?


Melo creates more misses as well, other guys can spot up better or are even better outlet options without the range, him being a better passer ignores his decline in other areas, particularly with his waning athleticism and spare me the talk of his improved defense, hes still EASILY the least impressive defender I've seen covered here.


Im confused, on one hand you argue its a Knicks bias on the other its the stats. Are you saying the 2 groups are both fighting to keep the Knicks down, I really dont see why you have a problem with people using more information to form their opinion. Like look at your excuse, stacked teams? Some guys numbers go up when they play with less talented teammates dont they? Stick to the alleged "Knick bias" and keep the objective analysis out of your complaint because nobody is going to believe your word over theirs and the numbers that back them. Especially when you're not really refuting stats to begin with.


Lillard is getting votes but maybe its because they are not worthy and superior players lay ahead of them.


Whats your excuse going to be that even on the off chance that the Knicks do start winning, that Melo still isn't producing at a level on par with Blake? I find your preemptive whining hilarious, you began this very thread by using teammates against guys who are in fact winning AND producing at a higher level but you're gonna play the victim in the hypothetical situation where Melo is being unfairly punished for his teammates?



Melo isn't that good and the guys not on the list yet are not there for a reason, you guys need to catch up and stop being homers. Blake doesn't have to apologize for being more productive/efficient, more of a winner, beasting in the playoffs and receiving just due in his accolades (when was the last time Melo made an All-League team or got an MVP vote?).

Come up with something better than, "dont pay attention to W's or the numbers, IM telling YOU whats wat"

I am sorry Chronz. I have a job and dont waste my time looking up situational stats to validate my opinion on a forum. It is different when you play the game then when you sit behind your keyboard and look up Efficiency stats. But I will bite anyway and answer your useless statements point by point.

1) Read the whole thread. There are posters arguing Melos lack of skill because he was unable to carry his roster into the playoffs. Maybe you didnt personally make that statement but that was a point made. So dont get your panties in a bunch. The comment about Melo could be doing better with the talent around him is ludicrous. Its a fact. If the knicks actually traded Melo to the Clippers for Blake they probably wouldnt have had the worst playoff meltdowns in history against the Rockets. To your point about Paul going out and them still winning games. That goes to show you how deep the team is not how great Blake is. You still have Reddick Crawford Jordan Pierce. Players all better than everyone on the knicks team outside of Melo and Porzingis. So I am sorry I am not ready to hail Blake Griffin high and mighty.

2) All your opinion. Where is the advanced stats supporting your arguement. How is what you said any different then my whole post that you decide to dissect line by line? Melo has the offensive load on his shoulders because the team sucked. I guarantee he would have a higher efficiency in Blakes position.

3) This paragraph makes no sense. I clearly stated there is a huge Knicks Bias here. Its obvious. I could careless what a Clippers fan thinks about my team. You are no more educated in this discussion than I. We get Rose and Noah and people slate us to be worst than last year. Pure Bias. That is something that has been on these boards for years. Its not anything new. Only difference we as Knicks fans take it. The Rockets fan base got a taste of what we got and there was advisory boards warning people to stop making fun of the Rockets. Halarious.

As to the use of advanced stats I am a proponent of the people like Mightybosstone that use it like its the only form of comparison when talking sports. There isnt an algebra equation for everything basketball I am sorry to upset the nerds on this board. You guys get a new formula and run with it like its one of the 10 commandments. If I wanted to write a thesis paper I would fall in line with you and mightbosstones methodologies but I will pass.

Lillard is a very special player. He lost Aldridge and still did a great job with that team. Hes more deserving than any of the players on the Clippers by pure virtue that the Clippers are loaded and the Blazers are not. We are talking pure talent right? You put Blake Griffin on that team and they dont make the playoffs. Yet Griffin is better than Lillard?

What I said wasnt a whine session its the truth. People like you turn a blind eye because it doesnt effect your agenda. I dont really care otherwise I just decided to reply to your ignorant commentary because you called me a whiner. Real mature buddy. I am looking forward to another Clipper meltdown this season.

WaDe03
08-02-2016, 11:30 PM
LMAO yeah your guys' pick up games at the YMCA make you guys NBA gurus hahahaha

Or playing for actual teams and being in actual in game situations. I'll take someone's opinion who actually played the game over someone who never has any day. Just because we didn't play in the NBA means that this is invalid?

Shammyguy3
08-02-2016, 11:50 PM
Or playing for actual teams and being in actual in game situations. I'll take someone's opinion who actually played the game over someone who never has any day. Just because we didn't play in the NBA means that this is invalid?

Michael Jordan making awful personnel moves shows that just because you play and we're great doesn't mean you are good at evaluating talent or explaining the game

cmellofan15
08-03-2016, 12:03 AM
Or playing for actual teams and being in actual in game situations. I'll take someone's opinion who actually played the game over someone who never has any day. Just because we didn't play in the NBA means that this is invalid?

The NBA isn't even remotely close to whatever game you played, or any game that I've played or coached.

The logical conclusion to your argument would be that only NBA players and coaches can evaluate the game well; and everybody knows that's bull by seeing how some superstars pan out as coaches and GMs. So your argument is pretty much invalidated by your own lack of experience.

More-Than-Most
08-03-2016, 12:47 AM
I agree with this, people who played definitely have a different mindset and understanding of the game but it is what it is. I think Melo is better than both Klay and Green but the excel in their situation so they are viewed as better than players they really aren't better than.

Really? Because I can point out several superstar athletes who are moronic about the sport they play and you think the vast majority of these guys understand basketball better because they play the sport? If that is the case why do they need trainers/asst? The trainers that are helping them work on their game never played the sport right? The notion that playing the sport makes someone an expert over other people that havent is a lazy stupid argument esp now when we have so much information and so many ways to watch and follow the sport and the metrics we have of understanding the sport.

http://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/onair/fox-sports-daybreak-46874/oscar-robertson-todays-nba-players-dont-14389829/

Oscar robinson complaining about players not knowing basketball today :shrug:


Him on coaches who are former players and played the sport

"If I've got a guy who's great shooting the ball outside, don't you want to extend your defense out a little bit?" the 77-year-old Big O said Thursday during a phone interview on ESPN's Mike & Mike show. "I just don't think coaches today in basketball understand the game of basketball. They don't know anything about defenses. They don't know what people are doing on the court. They talk about analytical basketball and stuff like that."
[]
"He's shot well because of what's going on in basketball today," Robertson said. "In basketball today, it's almost like if you can dunk or make a three-point shot, you're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
"There have been some great shooters in the past. ... But here again, when I played years ago, if you shot a shot outside and hit it, the next time I'm going to be up on top of you. I'm going to pressure you with three-quarters, half-court defense. But now they don't do that. These coaches do not understand the game of basketball, as far as I'm concerned."


That is interesting... Players and coaches not understanding defenses? I can name a few people on this site who can game plan and tell you about defense and so on down the list like there is no tomorrow... Playing the sport means nothing.

More-Than-Most
08-03-2016, 12:56 AM
Did Popovich ever play in the NBA? He is literally the GOAT coach... Did he ever play? Where does the line stop? What about Pat Riley and Phil jackson who were Role players? I guess they dont understand the sport as well as someone like MJ/Kobe/Duncan/Lebron who are all time greats?

Tom Thibodeuo never played
Mike Brown never played
Mike Dantoni never played
Erik Spolstra never played


Guess all these guys know nothing about the sport huh? Such a stupid lazy argument

latinofire21
08-03-2016, 06:53 AM
Did Popovich ever play in the NBA? He is literally the GOAT coach... Did he ever play? Where does the line stop? What about Pat Riley and Phil jackson who were Role players? I guess they dont understand the sport as well as someone like MJ/Kobe/Duncan/Lebron who are all time greats?

Tom Thibodeuo never played
Mike Brown never played
Mike Dantoni never played
Erik Spolstra never played


Guess all these guys know nothing about the sport huh? Such a stupid lazy argument

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the metrics people are coming up with to analyze the sport is of any greater value the. What scouts have done in previous years scouting talent.

What you are all overlooking is the argument is playing the sport in a competitive atmosphere vs a fan just watching. Anyone who has played AAU ball at a high level, high school ball at a premiere school, any type of college ball, or overseas ball I will value their opinion more than the keyboard warriors that try to force efficiency metrics down everyone's throat like the be all end all answer of debates. You guys can save the time trying to argue with me about it because I simply don't value all the metrics being made up to determine who's better these days. Don't get the pocket protectors ruffled up. Keep the protractors nice and steady and be sure not to waste your breat arguing with me about "advanced metrics". Nothing advanced about a bored math teacher making up equations to show a players worth versus watching the game.

Shammyguy3
08-03-2016, 09:53 AM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?912917-14th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA

continue here

WaDe03
08-03-2016, 11:40 AM
You guys are the ones bringing level of play into this not me lol. I said someone who has played knows the game more than someone who hasn't. You guys point to MJ and I'll back it up by pointing to Pat Riley and Danny Ainge. You guys say Pop I'll say Phil.

cmellofan15
08-03-2016, 11:54 AM
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the metrics people are coming up with to analyze the sport is of any greater value the. What scouts have done in previous years scouting talent.

scouting isn't something that doesn't evolve. advanced metrics are pushing it forward, especially at the college and NBA levels. i'm not sure how you can deny it when it's not some internet sensation, it's advancement in NBA scouting.


What you are all overlooking is the argument is playing the sport in a competitive atmosphere vs a fan just watching. Anyone who has played AAU ball at a high level, high school ball at a premiere school, any type of college ball, or overseas ball I will value their opinion more than the keyboard warriors that try to force efficiency metrics down everyone's throat like the be all end all answer of debates.

lol. you are making baseless assumptions about people who make you look bad in disagreements. I coach high school basketball and run a youth camp every june, and have played sports all my life. that doesn't mean I can just make arguments with providing any reasoning or proof LMAO.


You guys can save the time trying to argue with me about it because I simply don't value all the metrics being made up to determine who's better these days. Don't get the pocket protectors ruffled up. Keep the protractors nice and steady and be sure not to waste your breat arguing with me about "advanced metrics". Nothing advanced about a bored math teacher making up equations to show a players worth versus watching the game.

no, what you don't value is actually backing up your opinion with any evidence and reasoning. and you make up these ridiculous scenarios of people using advance stats to try to cover up the fact that your arguments have no legs to stand on.

Chronz
08-03-2016, 01:28 PM
I am sorry Chronz. I have a job and dont waste my time looking up situational stats to validate my opinion on a forum. It is different when you play the game then when you sit behind your keyboard and look up Efficiency stats. But I will bite anyway and answer your useless statements point by point.
First of all dont be sorry, this isn't a phone conversation, you can respond back to me in a month and if you have something interesting to say, I will respond. I dont see what the difference has to do with anything, but its obviously best to use all the information you have. Like yesterday, I got to the park around 6PM left around 9:30 cuz my team went 6-2 (6 game winning streak). We were undefeated for like 5 games before I Would finally have a good scoring game (and it was clutch as hell). But on my way home Im sitting there thinking, man I wish I knew how many steals, deflections, rebounds and assists I had because it would have just given me a better perspective on my night. As it was, I went home proud that I had a great workout for the first time in weeks and that I ripped the ball away from much taller guys but mad at myself for not being able to blow bye these bigger guys that I knew ate my dust a few months back. If the stats showed that I gave my team more possessions than I cost them, I really dont mind my scoring numbers but Im not sure I did that. I have an idea that I gave them more possessions than anyone else (I really have the worlds quickest and strongest hands bro, i bent my pinky fighting for a board last night) but I dont know if I offset my stupid shots.


1) Read the whole thread. There are posters arguing Melos lack of skill because he was unable to carry his roster into the playoffs. Maybe you didnt personally make that statement but that was a point made. So dont get your panties in a bunch. The comment about Melo could be doing better with the talent around him is ludicrous. Its a fact. If the knicks actually traded Melo to the Clippers for Blake they probably wouldnt have had the worst playoff meltdowns in history against the Rockets. To your point about Paul going out and them still winning games. That goes to show you how deep the team is not how great Blake is. You still have Reddick Crawford Jordan Pierce. Players all better than everyone on the knicks team outside of Melo and Porzingis. So I am sorry I am not ready to hail Blake Griffin high and mighty.

If the Clips trade for Melo, we never get past the Spurs, hell, if we trade for Melo we probably have a lower seed and play someone else altogether. And you cannot disregard the load Blake carried in CP3's absence, the team had no depth as it was, the guy was exhausted by the end of that series. I've seen Melo go down in a whimper so Im not buying your argument.


2) All your opinion. Where is the advanced stats supporting your arguement. How is what you said any different then my whole post that you decide to dissect line by line? Melo has the offensive load on his shoulders because the team sucked. I guarantee he would have a higher efficiency in Blakes position.

Contrary to your belief, I dont have to look up numbers for certain players, it becomes ingrained in their game as everything else and I happen to have a good memory for numbers and play styles. If you wish to point to any statistical evidence to back your case then I'll play ball, until then, I know your wrong. I dont care about your guarantee, I guarantee he doesn't touch Blake's production and that our defense declines with forcing Melo to play the 4 in place of Blake and thats saying something. Even a rookie Blake surrounded by trash wasn't as inefficient as Melo is today, how is that possible if the teammates are so responsible for the difference in production?



3) This paragraph makes no sense. I clearly stated there is a huge Knicks Bias here. Its obvious. I could careless what a Clippers fan thinks about my team. You are no more educated in this discussion than I. We get Rose and Noah and people slate us to be worst than last year. Pure Bias. That is something that has been on these boards for years. Its not anything new. Only difference we as Knicks fans take it. The Rockets fan base got a taste of what we got and there was advisory boards warning people to stop making fun of the Rockets. Halarious.

While that was embarrassing, I dont agree with your Knick bias, many of your ilk have cried foul only to see what the rest of the world saw. How many guys left in your forum still admit to thinking Bargs had potential to help the team?


As to the use of advanced stats I am a proponent of the people like Mightybosstone that use it like its the only form of comparison when talking sports. There isnt an algebra equation for everything basketball I am sorry to upset the nerds on this board. You guys get a new formula and run with it like its one of the 10 commandments. If I wanted to write a thesis paper I would fall in line with you and mightbosstones methodologies but I will pass.

If you pass then please stop making silly statistical claims and just know, that nobody will ever trust your gut above theirs, particularly when the objective data backs them. Your argument is outdated by about 8 years bro, nobody uses stats as the end all be all, particularly when the creators of those very same formulas (creators who happen to work for NBA teams while you seem to think they hold very little value, hmm who should I trust on this one? lmfao) admit that they AREN'T the end all be all. The only thing worse than someone who uses stats and stats alone, is someone uses his gut and gut alone. Once you start using stats to help form your opinion, then people will care what you make of them. Otherwise, please stop your BS excuses for Melo's lack of objective backing.


Lillard is a very special player. He lost Aldridge and still did a great job with that team. Hes more deserving than any of the players on the Clippers by pure virtue that the Clippers are loaded and the Blazers are not. We are talking pure talent right? You put Blake Griffin on that team and they dont make the playoffs. Yet Griffin is better than Lillard?
LMFAO, thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Please tell me Im misunderstanding you, you're not seriously suggesting that this inane theory includes Chris Paul, right? Imagine if back in the day people were saying having the most stacked teammates DQ's Kareem, Magic, MJ, Kobe, Bron, none of you are as good as this guy whos losing and putting up worse stats. LMFAO

If Blake were on that team they easily do better than they did with Lillard, simply because hes a better player capable of more. See how easily I can counter your baseless claims. If you have nothing more than opinion to offer then lets just agree to disagree, just stop pretending its such a travesty for guys with a greater argument to go ahead of guys you need to make inane excuses for.


What I said wasnt a whine session its the truth. People like you turn a blind eye because it doesnt effect your agenda. I dont really care otherwise I just decided to reply to your ignorant commentary because you called me a whiner. Real mature buddy. I am looking forward to another Clipper meltdown this season.
LOL. Why is a Knicks fan mocking the success of another team? You're already whining that some people dont have the Knicks as an improved team or whatever, sounds like you would KILL to have a "Meltdown" like the Clips have had. Hell, Im sure you guys would have killed just to upset the defending champs.

Chronz
08-03-2016, 01:40 PM
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the metrics people are coming up with to analyze the sport is of any greater value the. What scouts have done in previous years scouting talent.

What you are all overlooking is the argument is playing the sport in a competitive atmosphere vs a fan just watching. Anyone who has played AAU ball at a high level, high school ball at a premiere school, any type of college ball, or overseas ball I will value their opinion more than the keyboard warriors that try to force efficiency metrics down everyone's throat like the be all end all answer of debates. You guys can save the time trying to argue with me about it because I simply don't value all the metrics being made up to determine who's better these days. Don't get the pocket protectors ruffled up. Keep the protractors nice and steady and be sure not to waste your breat arguing with me about "advanced metrics". Nothing advanced about a bored math teacher making up equations to show a players worth versus watching the game.

You know what I value, what the NBA values. Stats are becoming an even greater part of the game, old school coaches used to track their own stats and have their own formulas, the egg heads just took it a step further and refined their work. Those guys work for the NBA and their methods are just as important to consider in any evaluation.

I like how you depict these nerds by your own bias but you would be surprised to know that the guys with the numbers tend to be the guys who watch the most film.


But definitely agree to disagree on the playing vs watching aspect, owners wouldn't be entrusting their teams to such people if they valued the highest competition, look at the greatest player of all-time, hes been PUTRID as a gm, do you think its a coincidence that his team has risen above the ranks right as MJ empowered one of those egg heads in Rich Cho? I dont but feel free to think its not as equally important in this day and age.

I mean everyone played HS right? AAU was before my time but I went to basketball camps just the same. Its nothing special, the guy I turn to the most for gambling advice NEVER PLAYS. He knows the strengths and weaknesses of every player and hes trying to keep up with coaching strats season to season. I would ball him up 1v1, but when it comes to actually projecting the game, hes my ringer.

Chronz
08-03-2016, 01:45 PM
You guys are the ones bringing level of play into this not me lol. I said someone who has played knows the game more than someone who hasn't. You guys point to MJ and I'll back it up by pointing to Pat Riley and Danny Ainge. You guys say Pop I'll say Phil.
So whats that prove, that there is no correlation? Thats only proving their point, the numbers end up gearing against you I think, especially as more and more GM's and execs are hired who never played in the NBA.

And subjectively, even your comparisons dont sway me. Like MJ was DISASTROUS as anything other than a player. Pop was genius at both GMing and Coaching. Phil was a great coach but he wasn't an X's and O's type, that had more to do with his spiritualism and ability to bend egos to his will in one form or another. Some of the best coaches are actually guys who just connect with their guys. Phil Jackson as a basketball mind capable of team building is still in question. Its really hard to gauge GM's because even the idiots can luck into a deal, we really have to give Phil time to see how he drafts and how he deals. Ainge is solid tho, Ill give you that. In terms of basketball minds, I really value he and Bird. Which brings me to my overall point, it depends on the INDIVIDUAL. What these guys have proven is that you can reach that level of awareness without ever producing for an NBA team on the court. Guys who played do not in fact, know more about the game. We've all played the game man, some of us just dont have the genetics to make it further than our talent dictates.

I really dont think you understand how stupid some of these athletes (and coaches) can get, even the greatest ones. Personally I think great PG's make for great coaches because they do more of the thinking on the court, or if you're a bigman, its best if you were a role player who was never the **** of the walk. Just a personal theory of mine.

Let me put it this way, Wilt Chamberlain is at worst the 2nd best rebounder of all time, but even he was wrong about why rebounds have dwindled. It was obvious to every statistician what was happening but he was blind to the effects of pace and shooting %'s.

Dumbleavy earned his name when he tried referencing stats only to sound like a bumbling idiot.

Chronz
08-03-2016, 02:02 PM
Or playing for actual teams and being in actual in game situations. I'll take someone's opinion who actually played the game over someone who never has any day. Just because we didn't play in the NBA means that this is invalid?

I should've just responded to this post. Why not just agree with people you are most impressed with in terms of basketball IQ. Be it as a player, analyst, scout, GM etc...


Like I can point to idiot NBA players and genius non-NBA players. Thats why you dont live life by any extreme stance, search out the middle ground and you will be right more often than not in your estimations.

Vee-Rex
08-03-2016, 02:18 PM
Chronz just smoked some cats in this thread.

/end thread