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Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 01:29 AM
Game 1: Drew Pomeranz vs Justin Verlander

Game 2: Stephen Wright vs Mike Pelfrey

Game 3: Michael Fulmer vs Eduardo Rodriguez

The Allen
07-26-2016, 02:34 AM
Pom looked very good in his second start. We just couldn't capitalize unfortunately.

Fla.SticKy
07-26-2016, 03:06 AM
Clay makes me wanna puke, can't stand that dude. Trade him for whatever, Cracker Jacks, T-shirt, bobble head, whatever.......Just get him gone. Not making any excuses, but during that bases loaded situation in the 8th did you guys see the bad called strikes?

NateWall
07-26-2016, 06:57 AM
Clay makes me wanna puke, can't stand that dude. Trade him for whatever, Cracker Jacks, T-shirt, bobble head, whatever.......Just get him gone. Not making any excuses, but during that bases loaded situation in the 8th did you guys see the bad called strikes?

Yes, specifically the 2-0 pitch that was clearly a ball to Mookie that was called a strike. A call like that definitely changes that at bat and the game.

Bo Sox Fan
07-26-2016, 08:59 AM
Taking the bat off your shoulders and protecting the plate when down 2 strikes helps to. Looking at you Brock Holt.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 09:40 AM
We couldn't get a hit with men on base last night.

Pomeranz looked good. People are awfully quite on that trade now. This is why we don't judge after 1 inning, 1 start, or even 2 starts.

BoSox47
07-26-2016, 11:33 AM
I seriously cant stand Farrell, i know i ***** about him every day but its because he gives us something of not multiple things to complain about.

1. Pomeranz throws a great game, leaves 2-1. The next two pitchers you put in are Joe Kelly and Clay Buccholz? Ill give him a SLIGHT pass because we were losing the game, not as bad as the other night putting in Clay(who didnt do bad at all, still wouldnt have put him out there) instead of Barnes. Then instead of going to Barnes for a possible second time he puts in Heath Embree who had allowed 16 of his las 26 batter to reach base.

2. Bases loaded and he puts Bryce Brentz up to pinch hit instead of aaron hill? Rather put the more experienced guy in during that situation.

bosox1899
07-26-2016, 11:47 AM
I seriously cant stand Farrell, i know i ***** about him every day but its because he gives us something of not multiple things to complain about.

1. Pomeranz throws a great game, leaves 2-1. The next two pitchers you put in are Joe Kelly and Clay Buccholz? Ill give him a SLIGHT pass because we were losing the game, not as bad as the other night putting in Clay(who didnt do bad at all, still wouldnt have put him out there) instead of Barnes. Then instead of going to Barnes for a possible second time he puts in Heath Embree who had allowed 16 of his las 26 batter to reach base.

2. Bases loaded and he puts Bryce Brentz up to pinch hit instead of aaron hill? Rather put the more experienced guy in during that situation.

I agree but I think the Bryce Brentz move was alright, he should have PH Hill for Holt since Holt sucks against lefties. That was a pathetic AB by Holt nonetheless

RedSoxtober
07-26-2016, 02:27 PM
"He pitched as we had anticipated at the time of the trade," manager John Farrell said. "Likely a six-inning pitcher. Chance to go [deeper] if the pitch count is a little bit shortened from where it was. Don't want to start him with an inning at over 100 pitches. I thought a very good curveball tonight compared to his last time out. A number of swing-and-miss to it. Unfortunately, the one pitch that cost us was a fastball that stayed up over the plate to Iglesias. He was very good, I thought for the six innings of work."

It was the 12th time over his 18 starts this season where he's allowed four or fewer hits, which lead the majors. He's also allowed three or fewer earned runs in 22 of his 28 starts since 2015, including two earned runs or fewer in 17 of them. He's also been very impressive with runners in scoring position, as opponents are batting just .137 against him.

Pomeranz noted the 10-day layoff between starts after the trade may have impacted his performance last week against the Giants and it felt good to get back into a routine.weei.com

This is what I was suggesting about his last start. It wasn't nerves but rust. Hopefully this is the guy that we see for the rest of the season.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 02:34 PM
Meanwhile, Anderson Espinoza has a 7.04 ERA in his first two starts with his new team. I think we can cool off on calling this a terrible trade for now, and reevaluate later.

RedSoxtober
07-26-2016, 02:47 PM
Meanwhile, Anderson Espinoza has a 7.04 ERA in his first two starts with his new team. I think we can cool off on calling this a terrible trade for now, and reevaluate later.

I'll give the 18yr old who was just traded while still adjusting to life in the US (let alone professional baseball) a bit more slack. There's a reason why he was ranked in the top 20 prospects and it's not diminished by a slow transition. If you doubt it, check Urias' lines.

Also, beware the trap of aggregate stats. He had a rough first outing but his last start was 4.2IP, 4H, 2ER. Not terrible, especially since he's blowing past his previous usage limits.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 02:51 PM
I'll give the 18yr old who was just traded while still adjusting to life in the US (let alone professional baseball) a bit more slack. There's a reason why he was ranked in the top 20 prospects and it's not diminished by a slow transition. If you doubt it, check Urias' lines.

Sure, but that's not really what I was pointing too.

The forum went crazy after Pomeranz made his first start. All it took was one inning for people to call this a terrible trade. He pitched well last night and almost none of those people are seen.

RedSoxtober
07-26-2016, 03:15 PM
Sure, but that's not really what I was pointing too.

The forum went crazy after Pomeranz made his first start. All it took was one inning for people to call this a terrible trade. He pitched well last night and almost none of those people are seen.

The eruption had far less to do with Pomeranz being bad (he was once regarded in a similar way to Espinoza which is why he was dealt for Ubaldo when Jiminez went on his crazy streak a few years ago) than it did with Pomeranz being overvalued. I think that he was overvalued. The reaction that you mention is a bit different, too. The people most vocal about the last start such as myself and j-bay were also vocal about it being a bad (overvalued) deal at the time of the trade. The results matched the concerns.

Feel free to re-read what I posted on his previous effort. While I was upset about how much we gave up, I still suggested that he could be good (offering a favorable comp for him finishing with a 120ish ERA+). I worry about the lack of established track record as a SP and potential durability issues for this year. His first start fit the potential. I've commented on his good start as well. In fact, I came into this thread specifically because of my comments on his last start.

You may disagree but I find this "one bad inning" theme to be very misdirected. He didn't have "one bad inning" like Price and Porcello have done several times, stutter-stepping through the first or second inning and then pitching well thereafter. He could not get an out the second time through the order. That's pretty significant context. Having enough weapons to survive multiple turns through the lineup is what separates starters from relievers.

Station 13
07-26-2016, 03:50 PM
Why must they suck so bad with the bases loaded no outs? Easily 3 games worst because they can't buy a hit or sac fly

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 04:21 PM
The eruption had far less to do with Pomeranz being bad (he was once regarded in a similar way to Espinoza which is why he was dealt for Ubaldo when Jiminez went on his crazy streak a few years ago) than it did with Pomeranz being overvalued. I think that he was overvalued. The reaction that you mention is a bit different, too. The people most vocal about the last start such as myself and j-bay were also vocal about it being a bad (overvalued) deal at the time of the trade. The results matched the concerns.

Feel free to re-read what I posted on his previous effort. While I was upset about how much we gave up, I still suggested that he could be good (offering a favorable comp for him finishing with a 120ish ERA+). I worry about the lack of established track record as a SP and potential durability issues for this year. His first start fit the potential. I've commented on his good start as well. In fact, I came into this thread specifically because of my comments on his last start.

You may disagree but I find this "one bad inning" theme to be very misdirected. He didn't have "one bad inning" like Price and Porcello have done several times, stutter-stepping through the first or second inning and then pitching well thereafter. He could not get an out the second time through the order. That's pretty significant context. Having enough weapons to survive multiple turns through the lineup is what separates starters from relievers.

His bad inning revamped their thoughts that the trade was bad. In reality, one inning doesn't give anyone the right to say "see, I told you this was a bad trade!"

They used that bad inning to vent their anger. It's silly. You can say you didn't like the trade or it was "bad", but one inning doesn't confirm that. What if I think the trade was amazing (which I do not) and I came into this thread praising Dombrowski for making such a clutch move to help us win a WS? I would hope people on the opposite side of the spectrum would call me out for looking too much into one start.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 04:23 PM
Why must they suck so bad with the bases loaded no outs? Easily 3 games worst because they can't buy a hit or sac fly

It's brutal to watch when it bites us, but their numbers with the bases loaded throughout the season are actually good. I'm pretty sure someone posted a stat recently showing that.

Bo Sox Fan
07-26-2016, 04:27 PM
His bad inning revamped their thoughts that the trade was bad. In reality, one inning doesn't give anyone the right to say "see, I told you this was a bad trade!"

They used that bad inning to vent their anger. It's silly. You can say you didn't like the trade or it was "bad", but one inning doesn't confirm that. What if I think the trade was amazing (which I do not) and I came into this thread praising Dombrowski for making such a clutch move to help us win a WS? I would hope people on the opposite side of the spectrum would call me out for looking too much into one start.

This

As I was in the minority of defending the trade.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 04:41 PM
I didn't love it but I was okay with it after everything calmed down and I looked at the context. The market is absolutely brutal. Look at what the Cubs just gave up for three months of Chapman.

bosox1899
07-26-2016, 04:46 PM
It's brutal to watch when it bites us, but their numbers with the bases loaded throughout the season are actually good. I'm pretty sure someone posted a stat recently showing that.

I'm willing to bet many of those times came when they were in the lead by a wide margin. I don't know if they have a stat for it but they seem to choke when they are trailing and are in those situations. It's almost a guaranteed double play or strike out.

RedSoxtober
07-26-2016, 06:53 PM
His bad inning revamped their thoughts that the trade was bad. In reality, one inning doesn't give anyone the right to say "see, I told you this was a bad trade!"

They used that bad inning to vent their anger. It's silly. You can say you didn't like the trade or it was "bad", but one inning doesn't confirm that. What if I think the trade was amazing (which I do not) and I came into this thread praising Dombrowski for making such a clutch move to help us win a WS? I would hope people on the opposite side of the spectrum would call me out for looking too much into one start.

"revamp" means to renovate or revise. I don't think that that is what you mean. I was one of the people who disliked the value of the trade and made several similar comments in the IGT. My position did not change and has not changed. I know that the same was true of one or two of the others who made comments. The bad start exemplified the concerns that were voiced earlier.

On April 8 Joe Kelly gave up 7ER and recorded 9 outs. Was that a bad start or just "one bad inning"? I'm not going to bother to check but I'll bet that there was not one single person in this forum who suggested that he had just one bad inning. Kelly was ripped for being a crappy pitcher and for giving us more of what we saw last year. But you know what? His start was pretty similar to what Pomeranz threw the last time out -- got through three innings in good shape (1ER, 2H) and unraveled in the fourth, failing to record an out while yielding 6 runs (vs 5 for Pomeranz).

The only reason Pomeranz got the benefit of this silly "one bad inning" argument is because people wanted to defend him. On any other day and with any other pitcher it was "one bad start". When you cannot record an out the second time through the batting order then you had a bad start. Period.

RedSoxtober
07-26-2016, 07:02 PM
I'm willing to bet many of those times came when they were in the lead by a wide margin. I don't know if they have a stat for it but they seem to choke when they are trailing and are in those situations. It's almost a guaranteed double play or strike out.

Unfortunately the criteria that you're trying to set up are just way too narrow to be meaningful. They've had only 38PA with the bases loaded and no outs all year. Slicing that down to PA after the 6th inning when they're trailing by 3 runs or less... I mean there's just not going to be many of those out there.

If you want to look at some of their "clutch" stats for this year then you can find them here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=BOS&year=2016#clutc). By and large they perform pretty well for most of the "clutch" stats -- very consistent at each slice. They do, however, tail off "Late & Close". What you're looking at is more related to that than the specific scenario of bases loaded, trailing, after the sixth...

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 07:26 PM
"revamp" means to renovate or revise. I don't think that that is what you mean. I was one of the people who disliked the value of the trade and made several similar comments in the IGT. My position did not change and has not changed. I know that the same was true of one or two of the others who made comments. The bad start exemplified the concerns that were voiced earlier.

On April 8 Joe Kelly gave up 7ER and recorded 9 outs. Was that a bad start or just "one bad inning"? I'm not going to bother to check but I'll bet that there was not one single person in this forum who suggested that he had just one bad inning. Kelly was ripped for being a crappy pitcher and for giving us more of what we saw last year. But you know what? His start was pretty similar to what Pomeranz threw the last time out -- got through three innings in good shape (1ER, 2H) and unraveled in the fourth, failing to record an out while yielding 6 runs (vs 5 for Pomeranz).

The only reason Pomeranz got the benefit of this silly "one bad inning" argument is because people wanted to defend him. On any other day and with any other pitcher it was "one bad start". When you cannot record an out the second time through the batting order then you had a bad start. Period.

Revamp: give new and improved form.

Revamped is exactly what I meant. The argument before was just that they didn't like the trade. After his first start they added that he had a bad start to the reasons why they didn't like the trade. Anyone who overreacts to one game (inning) and tries to prove a point that they stated earlier is clearly hot on their seat and ready to jump at anything. Not exactly the people I'd have any faith in making decisions. It's irrelevant how you felt after the trade was made. If you watch one game and then say, "I knew this was a bad trade", you're overreacting to a small sample size. There's no way around that.

Kelly's start was obviously bad. That's a terrible comparison. Kelly hasn't been a good pitcher since he got here, none of us had high expectations. Pomeranz was having a great year and we just traded a top prospect for him. People were expecting him to come out firing (which he did) and they only spoke after THE BAD INNING. Then he has a good start and they disappear. I'm baffled as to why this is hard to understand.

Those pitchers have been here for a while and can be looked at in a wider spectrum. Pomeranz had one start to get judged by, and in that start, he had one bad inning.

Bo Sox Fan
07-26-2016, 07:36 PM
If DD gets swept by his old team in Detroit here you gotta think he's not gonna sleep well, wake up one morning and decide to do something BIG.

Chris Sale talk may become real talk.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 07:42 PM
If DD gets swept by his old team in Detroit here you gotta think he's not gonna sleep well, wake up one morning and decide to do something BIG.

Chris Sale talk may become real talk.

I wonder if Wright feels uneasy with Leon catching him. Hanigan has been catching him for a while now and he was in a nice grove.

I'll admit Hanigan has gotten better as the year has gone on at catching Wright. He's still awful with the bat but he's fitting nicely into his role of the backup catcher who catches the knuckleballer.

Soxfan85
07-26-2016, 08:02 PM
I wonder if Wright feels uneasy with Leon catching him. Hanigan has been catching him for a while now and he was in a nice grove.

I'll admit Hanigan has gotten better as the year has gone on at catching Wright. He's still awful with the bat but he's fitting nicely into his role of the backup catcher who catches the knuckleballer.



C Ryan Hanigan was scratched from tonight's starting lineup with flu-like symptoms. He is day to day. #RedSox

@RedSox

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 08:04 PM
@RedSox

Yeah I saw that and immediately tried to remember the last time he caught him. I honestly don't remember if he did more than a time or two. With a knuckleballer, experience and chemistry is pretty important.

Soxfan85
07-26-2016, 08:24 PM
Yeah I saw that and immediately tried to remember the last time he caught him. I honestly don't remember if he did more than a time or two. With a knuckleballer, experience and chemistry is pretty important.

He hasn't. Looking at ESPN game logs the dates he didn't play was Wright pitching.

bosox1899
07-26-2016, 08:55 PM
well any talk of wright winning the cy young went out the window after tonight. i know it's only one start but this is going to kill his stats and most voters look at that when they vote. his era jumped up to over 3 now.

bosox1899
07-26-2016, 08:56 PM
Unfortunately the criteria that you're trying to set up are just way too narrow to be meaningful. They've had only 38PA with the bases loaded and no outs all year. Slicing that down to PA after the 6th inning when they're trailing by 3 runs or less... I mean there's just not going to be many of those out there.

If you want to look at some of their "clutch" stats for this year then you can find them here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=BOS&year=2016#clutc). By and large they perform pretty well for most of the "clutch" stats -- very consistent at each slice. They do, however, tail off "Late & Close". What you're looking at is more related to that than the specific scenario of bases loaded, trailing, after the sixth...

It seems like they are relatively consistent in all aspects but it is alarming that their worse stats are when it's late and close. I guess it just boils down to common sense when there's 0 outs and bases loaded and they're trailing, they need to get at least 2 runs out of that

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 09:13 PM
He hasn't. Looking at ESPN game logs the dates he didn't play was Wright pitching.

Ah, okay. Wright got smashed tonight.

Fla.SticKy
07-26-2016, 09:32 PM
Let's gooooo

bosox1899
07-26-2016, 09:57 PM
this bullpen blows. of course they would allow a run when there's no one on base with 2 outs. **** ross

Bo Sox Fan
07-26-2016, 10:12 PM
If I had more time I'd look it up, but we must lead the majors in losses by a landslide when scoring 8+ runs.

******* joke.

Fla.SticKy
07-27-2016, 08:51 AM
If I had more time I'd look it up, but we must lead the majors in losses by a landslide when scoring 8+ runs.

******* joke.

Unreal......I can't even stomach these games, I'd rather get blown the **** out.

Soxfan85
07-27-2016, 12:13 PM
Some Stats as we go into August

Bullpen Ranks 16th with 3.86 ERA ( Source ESPN)

Starting Pitching Ranks 21st with 4.72 ERA ( Source ESPN)

Fielding Ranks 11th. (Source Fangraphs)

Batting Ranks 1st (Source Fangraphs)

Batting cannot win you all the games when your pitching is atrocious. And showed last night, We were trailing 4-0 into the 3rd came back within a run. Gave up 5 runs in the 4th. Scored 3rd runs in the 6th. It was back and forth. We lost by 1 run that's why are batting is 1st place. But Pitching is the problem and is ranked that far down.

RedSoxtober
07-27-2016, 03:37 PM
Revamp: give new and improved form.

Revamped is exactly what I meant. The argument before was just that they didn't like the trade. After his first start they added that he had a bad start to the reasons why they didn't like the trade. Anyone who overreacts to one game (inning) and tries to prove a point that they stated earlier is clearly hot on their seat and ready to jump at anything. Not exactly the people I'd have any faith in making decisions. It's irrelevant how you felt after the trade was made. If you watch one game and then say, "I knew this was a bad trade", you're overreacting to a small sample size. There's no way around that.
If you think that that's what happened then you're simply wrong. When the trade was made the consensus of those who opposed it was "we don't like this because we overpaid for this pitcher". There were some specific reasons why the value was said to be too high. The bad start was an example of it. It's just one argument with additional evidence. If you don't like it, too bad.


Kelly's start was obviously bad. That's a terrible comparison. Kelly hasn't been a good pitcher since he got here, none of us had high expectations. Pomeranz was having a great year and we just traded a top prospect for him. People were expecting him to come out firing (which he did) and they only spoke after THE BAD INNING. Then he has a good start and they disappear. I'm baffled as to why this is hard to understand.
OMG, did you even check? This is exactly what I thought. Kelly's first start with the Sox this year was NEARLY IDENTICAL to Pomeranz' first start with the Sox this year. Kelly gave up 2 hits and 1 run through three innings and was actually pitching well. When the lineup reset, he couldn't get an out and gave up 6ER in the fourth. Hell, he finished with nearly an identical line.

Kelly: 3.0IP, 7H, 7ER, 7R, 3BB, 4K
Pomeranz: 3.0IP, 8H, 5ER, 5R, 2BB, 4K

You've proven my point.

RedSoxtober
07-27-2016, 03:56 PM
Buchholz? Seriously? Multiple hits in his last couple shots out of the BP. 3 and 1 ER respectively. Yeah, that's an 8th inning guy after you cut the gap.

Good gracious I hope that they're showcasing him.

The Allen
07-27-2016, 04:28 PM
This team just isn't right at the moment. Something is off.

Fla.SticKy
07-27-2016, 04:36 PM
Smh

TragicallyHip
07-27-2016, 04:39 PM
This bullpen is a ****ing embarrassment. These home series with Minnesota and Detroit were almost must win games facing an extended west coast trip.

2 of 4 against the ****ing Twins and getting swept by Detroit is less than ideal. Farrell's gotta go, this team needs a shakeup.

bosox1899
07-27-2016, 04:39 PM
3rd straight game the bullpen blew a tie or lead. i guess this team is close but definitely not a WS caliber team yet

NateWall
07-27-2016, 04:43 PM
3rd straight game the bullpen blew a tie or lead. i guess this team is close but definitely not a WS caliber team yet

Once Kimbrel comes back in assuming Taz will man the 7th again and Ziegler will go back to being the SU guy. We definitely need to make another splash for a bp arm or two because we can't rely on these guys to be healthy for these last couple months.

bosox1899
07-27-2016, 04:50 PM
Once Kimbrel comes back in assuming Taz will man the 7th again and Ziegler will go back to being the SU guy. We definitely need to make another splash for a bp arm or two because we can't rely on these guys to be healthy for these last couple months.

might work out perfectly for Koji since he's 42, don't think he's an everyday reliever anymore. maybe 2 to 3 games per week. I don't have any faith in Taz either, he's been overused and looks to be wearing out every year. it seems like taz has been with the sox forever now haha

The Allen
07-27-2016, 04:56 PM
We really need a new pitching coach as well as firing JF. The pitching has been very meh all this year outside a few arms.

Green_Monster
07-27-2016, 05:00 PM
If you think that that's what happened then you're simply wrong. When the trade was made the consensus of those who opposed it was "we don't like this because we overpaid for this pitcher". There were some specific reasons why the value was said to be too high. The bad start was an example of it. It's just one argument with additional evidence. If you don't like it, too bad.

No. You saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. You were one of the ones who trashed him after a bad inning. I'll see you and the others after his next start if it goes bad, I assume.

You're wrong. I can do it to.


OMG, did you even check? This is exactly what I thought. Kelly's first start with the Sox this year was NEARLY IDENTICAL to Pomeranz' first start with the Sox this year. Kelly gave up 2 hits and 1 run through three innings and was actually pitching well. When the lineup reset, he couldn't get an out and gave up 6ER in the fourth. Hell, he finished with nearly an identical line.

Kelly: 3.0IP, 7H, 7ER, 7R, 3BB, 4K
Pomeranz: 3.0IP, 8H, 5ER, 5R, 2BB, 4K

You've proven my point.

Why would I need to check? Pomeranz had a bad inning and you overreacted. Deal with it. You can call it whatever you want, you overreacted.

You're so hellbent on being right that you can't ever admit when you made a mistake. I've never seen anything like it. You're the only one who even cares about this, seeing that the other people who trashed the trade after the bad inning are nowhere to be seen.

By the way, it looks like Hanigan is the backup catcher who catches the knuckleballer. At least I can admit I underrated his defensive capabilities.

Bo Sox Fan
07-27-2016, 05:12 PM
This team is soo inconsistent and off balance it isn't funny anymore.

When the offence is usually on, the pitching usually blows it. When the pitching finally shows up, the offence decides to take a night off. When our most unreliable players finally have a good game, our most trusted and reliable players blow it.

Terry Lovullo me, and can that piece of trash pitching coach we picked up from the scrap heap when this team was a bigger joke last year. How he still has a job with this pitching staffs consistent struggles is beyond me.

Green_Monster
07-27-2016, 05:30 PM
This team is soo inconsistent and off balance it isn't funny anymore.

When the offence is usually on, the pitching usually blows it. When the pitching finally shows up, the offence decides to take a night off. When our most unreliable players finally have a good game, our most trusted and reliable players blow it.

Terry Lovullo me, and can that piece of trash pitching coach we picked up from the scrap heap when this team was a bigger joke last year. How he still has a job with this pitching staffs consistent struggles is beyond me.

We just keep finding ways to lose. It's not like in 2014/15 when we didn't have the talent. We have the talent now and we just aren't winning games we should.

Farrell should've been gone a while ago. It's too bad that we're wasting Ortiz's last year with him as the manager.

RedSoxtober
07-27-2016, 05:37 PM
No. You saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. You were one of the ones who trashed him after a bad inning. I'll see you and the others after his next start if it goes bad, I assume.
What I did was explain why I didn't like the trade in the trade thread and then pointed out the bad start as an example. I did not use the IGT to trash him.


Why would I need to check? Pomeranz had a bad inning and you overreacted. Deal with it. You can call it whatever you want, you overreacted.
You should check because the start in question so closely paralleled Pomeranz. I held it up as an example where, depending on your perspective, you would call it a "bad start" if you didn't like the pitcher but try to make it sound better by calling it "one bad inning" if you liked him. Dismissing it as a horrible comparison because Kelly is a bad pitcher just confirms what I said. "bad start" = "bad pitcher"

"one bad inning" = one lousy argument


You're so hellbent on being right that you can't ever admit when you made a mistake. I've never seen anything like it. You're the only one who even cares about this, seeing that the other people who trashed the trade after the bad inning are nowhere to be seen.
We disagree, but our disagreement does not make my comments a mistake. I just happen to be one of the few people who cares to defend their perspective. It used to be a dynamic, active forum that way but I guess it's out of vogue.


By the way, it looks like Hanigan is the backup catcher who catches the knuckleballer. At least I can admit I underrated his defensive capabilities.
Yes, he is.

RedSoxtober
07-27-2016, 05:53 PM
FWIW, I just re-read the IGT. One long-time poster had a couple of angry posts but mostly said "I wanted him to do well but this was the worst possible thing that could have happened." My comments re Pomeranz and the trade were only that no one should have blindly given him adulation. There were a couple of stray comments from newbies. That was it. I actually had more to say about whether we should attribute his bad start, er, excuse me, one bad inning (despite never locating his curve) to something other than nerves.

Green_Monster
07-27-2016, 06:05 PM
What I did was explain why I didn't like the trade in the trade thread and then pointed out the bad start as an example. I did not use the IGT to trash him.

You should check because the start in question so closely paralleled Pomeranz. I held it up as an example where, depending on your perspective, you would call it a "bad start" if you didn't like the pitcher but try to make it sound better by calling it "one bad inning" if you liked him. Dismissing it as a horrible comparison because Kelly is a bad pitcher just confirms what I said. "bad start" = "bad pitcher"

"one bad inning" = one lousy argument

Inning 1: 0 runs
Inning 2: 0 runs
Inning 3: 0 runs
Inning 4: 5 runs

That is one bad inning after three good innings. I'm so done with this. It's right there and you're refusing to acknowledge to it.


We disagree, but our disagreement does not make my comments a mistake. I just happen to be one of the few people who cares to defend their perspective. It used to be a dynamic, active forum that way but I guess it's out of vogue.

That was in regard to Hanigan.


Yes, he is.

Never thought I'd see the day.

BoSox47
07-27-2016, 10:52 PM
Meanwhile, Anderson Espinoza has a 7.04 ERA in his first two starts with his new team. I think we can cool off on calling this a terrible trade for now, and reevaluate later.

Why? Espinoza is pitching to playrs 2-3 years older than him on average. Pomeranz has a 6.36 ERA with Boston right now.

Petertherock
07-27-2016, 11:14 PM
Take yesterday's game...He leaves Wright in too long and blows the game...we come back and he leaves Ross in the game too long...Farrell blows the game twice in the same game. Granted we had E-Rod pitching today so we can't expect him to have a quality start but even with Price pitching we are giving up 3-4 runs over 6 innings. We have no ace and we have no pitchers that can give the pen a night off every once in a while.


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Bo Sox Fan
07-27-2016, 11:43 PM
Why? Espinoza is pitching to playrs 2-3 years older than him on average. Pomeranz has a 6.36 ERA with Boston right now.

FFS give up on the Pomeranz hate. He hasn't been here for any length of time to even pretend to judge him or his numbers.

Pull your bottom lip over your head and swallow. Get over it.

Bo Sox Fan
07-27-2016, 11:46 PM
Take yesterday's game...He leaves Wright in too long and blows the game...we come back and he leaves Ross in the game too long...Farrell blows the game twice in the same game. Granted we had E-Rod pitching today so we can't expect him to have a quality start but even with Price pitching we are giving up 3-4 runs over 6 innings. We have no ace and we have no pitchers that can give the pen a night off every once in a while.


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Yeah, ummm, Stephen Wright is that guy and has been all season. But of course, like so many others in this forum, you only remember the "1" bad outing.

RedSoxtober
07-28-2016, 08:47 AM
Inning 1: 0 runs
Inning 2: 0 runs
Inning 3: 0 runs
Inning 4: 5 runs

That is one bad inning after three good innings. I'm so done with this. It's right there and you're refusing to acknowledge to it.

How does it compare to Kelly's first start?
Inning 1: 1 run
Inning 2: 0 runs
Inning 3: 0 runs
Inning 4: 6 runs

Pretty similar but you use different language to describe the one I posted as compared to Pomeranz'. Why?

I choose to use the same language to describe them because they stem from the same problem -- the inability to work through a lineup more than once. They also shared a similar cause -- the inability to control the signature pitch (Pomeranz' curve and Kelly's FB which was thrown through the heart of the plate). The lack of control over multiple pitches is the reason why the second turn through the lineup was disastrous. That's what made it a bad start. It didn't just unravel but rather all the hitters saw what he had that day and knew what they could focus on.

Pomeranz had a bad start that was made obvious by a bad inning. Same with Kelly on April 8. Same with Price on more than one occasion. It's not uncommon for a bad start to manifest in a bad inning, but the causes are often seen earlier as was the case for Pomeranz. Is it possible to acknowledge that, or is "calling it whatever you want" just a cheap way out?

Green_Monster
07-28-2016, 10:30 AM
Why? Espinoza is pitching to playrs 2-3 years older than him on average. Pomeranz has a 6.36 ERA with Boston right now.

Why? Because you don't evaluate a trade after two starts. Well, not reasonably at least.

All this forum does is overreact. Things could be better, things could be worse.

We can talk about how we should've done much better this past week and stuff like that. But trashing a trade after each pitcher has had two starts? Actually, it was trashed after the first start, about one person commented after the second. Oops.

Green_Monster
07-28-2016, 10:36 AM
How does it compare to Kelly's first start?
Inning 1: 1 run
Inning 2: 0 runs
Inning 3: 0 runs
Inning 4: 6 runs

Pretty similar but you use different language to describe the one I posted as compared to Pomeranz'. Why?

I choose to use the same language to describe them because they stem from the same problem -- the inability to work through a lineup more than once. They also shared a similar cause -- the inability to control the signature pitch (Pomeranz' curve and Kelly's FB which was thrown through the heart of the plate). The lack of control over multiple pitches is the reason why the second turn through the lineup was disastrous. That's what made it a bad start. It didn't just unravel but rather all the hitters saw what he had that day and knew what they could focus on.

Pomeranz had a bad start that was made obvious by a bad inning. Same with Kelly on April 8. Same with Price on more than one occasion. It's not uncommon for a bad start to manifest in a bad inning, but the causes are often seen earlier as was the case for Pomeranz. Is it possible to acknowledge that, or is "calling it whatever you want" just a cheap way out?

I said I was done but I'll give it one more post.

Kelly has been bad for us for three years now. He's made several starts and can be looked at in a wider spectrum.

Pomeranz had just made his first start and that's all people wanted to judge him on. He let up all of his runs in one inning. That is a bad inning. Like I said, you can call it what you want. If you show that to anyone, he had 3 good innings followed by a bad one.

I'm done with this.

Pittz
07-28-2016, 11:16 AM
I said I was done but I'll give it one more post.

Kelly has been bad for us for three years now. He's made several starts and can be looked at in a wider spectrum.

Pomeranz had just made his first start and that's all people wanted to judge him on. He let up all of his runs in one inning. That is a bad inning. Like I said, you can call it what you want. If you show that to anyone, he had 3 good innings followed by a bad one.

I'm done with this.

You guys are funny. Emotions are high!

What about: It was a bad start, where Pomeranz did not have his best stuff in any of the innings, but the bad results were limited to one inning.

GM - I see exactly where you're coming from that you want to give Pomeranz a fair shot, but you're smart enough to know that good results don't necessarily mean a pitcher is actually pitching well. For the record, I don't think it's fair to say it was "one bad inning" when his best pitch was off for the entirety of his start, and, more importantly, that he didn't record a single out in the inning. Normally, the one bad inning label is reserved for a pitcher who sucks in one inning, but actually rebounds to some capacity.

You're clinging to this "one bad inning" like it makes a difference in how anyone is evaluating Pomeranz. Whether it's a bad inning or a bad start, **** happens, it's too small of a sample size to make any concrete evaluations.

This is a debate in semantics where you're both right. And you're both in agreement that one bad inning or one bad start is not enough to judge a pitcher, whichever you prefer to call it. So let's kiss and make up and hope Pomeranz never has a bad inning/start again :)

Green_Monster
07-28-2016, 01:09 PM
That's fair. I just hate seeing a newly acquired pitcher get **** on before he's even given a good chance to prove himself. It was one bad inning (or game, whatever) and he followed it up with a good start.

Let's not judge the trade fully yet.

RedSoxtober
07-28-2016, 04:18 PM
What about: It was a bad start, where Pomeranz did not have his best stuff in any of the innings, but the bad results were limited to one inning.
Exactly so and I tried to say the same. The semantic debate is actually what I'm trying to point out.


GM - I see exactly where you're coming from that you want to give Pomeranz a fair shot, but you're smart enough to know that good results don't necessarily mean a pitcher is actually pitching well. For the record, I don't think it's fair to say it was "one bad inning" when his best pitch was off for the entirety of his start, and, more importantly, that he didn't record a single out in the inning. Normally, the one bad inning label is reserved for a pitcher who sucks in one inning, but actually rebounds to some capacity.
This, well said. I definitely think Pomeranz deserves his shot. Admittedly, I went to the IGT to make a snarky comment but the worst that I got was saying that we should not have been too quick to throw him blind adulation; it's the other side of the coin for evaluating the trade over time. I even suggested the likely reason why his performance failed -- not because he sucked but because the long lay off between starts likely disrupted his feel for the CB. Pomeranz made the same comment himself after his very solid outing against DET.


So let's kiss and make up and hope Pomeranz never has a bad inning/start again :)
Ew, I've never kissed a green monster but I guess it's legal in all 50 states now so :love: