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Shammyguy3
07-25-2016, 06:51 PM
Here we go, kicking off #11. Remember, this is based on RIGHT NOW, not necessarily who was the best this past season, or who will be the best. It's a tricky debate, how much do you factor in the playoffs? Injuries? Team-fit? Etc. Here's what we have so far:

1. Lebron James
2. Stephen Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Chris Paul
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. James Harden
10. Draymond Green
11. ????

Heediot
07-25-2016, 07:21 PM
Griffin or Cousins. Voted Griffin.

More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 07:25 PM
welp im done.... Cant even believe cousins is probably going to drop out of the top 11.

Tony_Starks
07-25-2016, 08:00 PM
Neither Draymond nor Harden should've went before Cousins.

On team USA as we speak Dray is doing exactly what he usually does: he's a really good piece that's fits in.

Meanwhile Cousins is ballin out!

Chronz
07-25-2016, 08:33 PM
Neither Draymond nor Harden should've went before Cousins.

On team USA as we speak Dray is doing exactly what he usually does: he's a really good piece that's fits in.

Meanwhile Cousins is ballin out!

On team USA, James Harden was the go-to stud and Curry was the outlet. IIRC, he actually struggled in FIBA play compared to what other stars were doing. Dray and Cousins are close tho so I wont blame ya on the vote.

Im still going Blake Griffin, Cousins is unproven in playoff settings and his performance in the World Cup was nothing to brag about so might want to ease up on the FIBA factors.

tredigs
07-25-2016, 08:39 PM
A team led by Cousins has ONE time won more than 30 games and finished 16 games under .500. That's the best team he's led.

More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 08:49 PM
A team led by Cousins has ONE time won more than 30 games and finished 16 games under .500. That's the best team he's led.

I love this type of logic... We look for this excuse to negate cousins but no argument is ever made against curry/dray/klay for how stacked they are.... You cant have it both ways. How many games do the kings win if Dray is on their team and cousins isnt? I would bet my house and car it wouldnt be 30 plus games yet he is a top 10 player? This isnt a shot at your team just the logic because Id also have Dray top 10 and you know how high am on klay but its just dumb how we look for that 1 excuse to negate cousins and how great he is but for some reason that argument never comes into account for dray/klay/blake/curry/Khawi who have loaded teams around them.

More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 08:59 PM
You cant just pick and choose arguments.. Blake and CP3 for example... They have led teams to the playoffs but with all that talent have never been able to get very far with one of the most stacked teams in basketball might I add so what is worse exactly? Cousins never winning more than 30 games with 0 around him or Blake/CP3/Jordan ETC ETC ETC being ousted time and time again in the playoffs?

Its just insane that we still use the winning **** to hurt players in head to head arguments but negate fit/what they have around them and so on down the list. At times its completely understandable if a player actually had a ton of ****ing talent and still loses time and time again.

How come we have Durant top 3 when he has never been able to win the big one with more talent then just about anyone.... Hell if winning does all this kyrie------------->durant... **** context amirite?

More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 09:01 PM
Top 5 should be Lebron/Curry/Kyrie/Green/Klay

Lol winning but what in the blue hell has PG done exactly in what people love to consider a weak east?


AD in 4 seasons has won over 34 games once and that is when he won 45 games lol... Those 4 playoff games equates to him being a top 5 player in basketball... Why is AD ahead of Blake exactly then? Blake has won much much more right? Come on now we cant have double standards here

So cousins cant be top 10 or over blake because he never won over 30 games but AD is a top 5 player because he has won over 34 games once ahead of a blake who has been to the playoffs multiple times and performed rather well in the playoffs? PSD LOGIC YO

HOLD_THIS_L
07-25-2016, 09:10 PM
I love this type of logic... We look for this excuse to negate cousins but no argument is ever made against curry/dray/klay for how stacked they are.... You cant have it both ways. How many games do the kings win if Dray is on their team and cousins isnt? I would bet my house and car it wouldnt be 30 plus games yet he is a top 10 player? This isnt a shot at your team just the logic because Id also have Dray top 10 and you know how high am on klay but its just dumb how we look for that 1 excuse to negate cousins and how great he is but for some reason that argument never comes into account for dray/klay/blake/curry/Khawi who have loaded teams around them.
Agreed. And I'm a warrior fan. By this logic, Curry was putting up empty stats while playing along side Monta Ellis.

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-25-2016, 09:12 PM
A team led by Cousins has ONE time won more than 30 games and finished 16 games under .500. That's the best team he's led.
Quick question if you don't mind bro. Who'd would you picked prime Dwight or Cousins?

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More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 09:14 PM
Agreed. And I'm a warrior fan. By this logic, Curry was putting up empty stats while playing along side Monta Ellis.

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and its no slight against the warriors at all... Hell if lebron wasn't as massive as he is he would need a ton more help to do the **** he has done as well.... Lebron/Shaq are probably the only 2 guys that can win with just about anything around them because of their psychical dominance.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-25-2016, 09:14 PM
Top 5 should be Lebron/Curry/Kyrie/Green/Klay

Lol winning but what in the blue hell has PG done exactly in what people love to consider a weak east?


AD in 4 seasons has won over 34 games once and that is when he won 45 games lol... Those 4 playoff games equates to him being a top 5 player in basketball... Why is AD ahead of Blake exactly then? Blake has won much much more right? Come on now we cant have double standards here

So cousins cant be top 10 or over blake because he never won over 30 games but AD is a top 5 player because he has won over 34 games once ahead of a blake who has been to the playoffs multiple times and performed rather well in the playoffs? PSD LOGIC YO
Took Lance and Hibbert deep in the playoffs. Before the injury looked like a top 5 player IMHO. A smoother version of KL

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Chronz
07-25-2016, 09:17 PM
You cant just pick and choose arguments.. Blake and CP3 for example... They have led teams to the playoffs but with all that talent have never been able to get very far with one of the most stacked teams in basketball might I add so what is worse exactly? Cousins never winning more than 30 games with 0 around him or Blake/CP3/Jordan ETC ETC ETC being ousted time and time again in the playoffs?
Easily Cousins. The way I see it, Clips lost to better teams. Like when they lost to OKC, CP3 was arguably the 3rd best player. The years before that the Clips weren't even close to contention level given their injuries/youth and they still overachieved. The years after OKC they defeated the reigning champs and suffered an injury to their best player and that forced a shallow team to overextend itself.

I can buy an argument for Cousins over Blake tho.



Its just insane that we still use the winning **** to hurt players in head to head arguments but negate fit/what they have around them and so on down the list. At times its completely understandable if a player actually had a ton of ****ing talent and still loses time and time again.

Its all connected tho, winning, fit, role and production, they are influenced by the other to some degree. Like when people point to Cousins inefficiencies offensively compared to a guy like Blake Griffin. Some people will use Cousins lack of teammates as an excuse there when others have proven capable of producing whilst being dragged down by their teammates. Like even a rookie Blake Griffin posted impressive individual levels of efficiency and when he got a superstar to play with his efficiency didn't exactly skyrocket. I dont know if thats good or bad, I've often said Blake tends to play his game regardless but I have no doubt had we never added CP3, he would've posted a few 20-9-7 seasons, possibly more.

There is also something to be said for being playoff tested/proven. Its a sad reality but what if Cousins is a guy who typically declines at the highest level of basketball?



How come we have Durant top 3 when he has never been able to win the big one with more talent then just about anyone.... Hell if winning does all this kyrie------------->durant... **** context amirite?
Context shows the injuries to his cast and they also show hes produced at a rate that puts him in that conversation. Cousins doesn't stand out in any way, hes not on a winning team, hes not efficient, his production isn't other worldly and he quits on seasons.
Hes very valuable to a very bad team, thats all hes proven. His statistical realm isnt even on the K-Love chart of players who put up numbers on non-playoff teams and even he eventually got his team to a .500 level in a tougher West. I have Cousins tenure in Sac-Town a tier below Love in Minny.

More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 09:23 PM
Easily Cousins. The way I see it, Clips lost to better teams. Like when they lost to OKC, CP3 was arguably the 3rd best player. The years before that the Clips weren't even close to contention level given their injuries/youth and they still overachieved. The years after OKC they defeated the reigning champs and suffered an injury to their best player and that forced a shallow team to overextend itself.

I can buy an argument for Cousins over Blake tho.



Its all connected tho, winning, fit, role and production, they are influenced by the other to some degree. Like when people point to Cousins inefficiencies offensively compared to a guy like Blake Griffin. Some people will use Cousins lack of teammates as an excuse there when others have proven capable of producing whilst being dragged down by their teammates. Like even a rookie Blake Griffin posted impressive individual levels of efficiency and when he got a superstar to play with his efficiency didn't exactly skyrocket. I dont know if thats good or bad, I've often said Blake tends to play his game regardless but I have no doubt had we never added CP3, he would've posted a few 20-9-7 seasons, possibly more.

There is also something to be said for being playoff tested/proven. Its a sad reality but what if Cousins is a guy who typically declines at the highest level of basketball?


How come we have Durant top 3 when he has never been able to win the big one with more talent then just about anyone.... Hell if winning does all this kyrie------------->durant... **** context amirite?

But there could also be arguments why he declines at those moments and what if its just flat out fatique... Being the best player on the worst team or worst supporting cast in basketball while being that size... If he is a PG/SG where he can open things up more then maybe it would have merit but this is a player who flat out needs help around him and carries the bulk of the load all year.... The game plan going in to every single game is either stop cousins or let cousins get his and stop everyone else because they are so bad.... Lebron is the best of both worlds really... He is the size of a center while being like a PG but outside of him you put anyone else on the kings and I doubt they win more than 35 games...

If curry is on this kings team because of his lack of defense/size and the help around him they win 20 games because of the fit.... Same with a Kyrie/PG.. They would get destroyed.

That draining 3 points **** will be alot less efficient when you have to play both sides of the ball and have nobody else draining them for you to take the pressure off and its not a knock on curry but what the kings would have around him... His game esp would be horrid for this kings team.

tredigs
07-25-2016, 09:26 PM
Quick question if you don't mind bro. Who'd would you picked prime Dwight or Cousins?

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Prime Dwight, and it's a very easy decision. He was the most impactful defender in the NBA and drew constant double teams while still putting up highly efficient/solid scoring.

Cousins' combination of a lack of leadership and simply having a low BBIQ are imo without question part of the reason why his teams have never been able to even sniff .500. I've seen Blake absolutely carry the Clippers without CP3 (due to injury) for extended periods of time. We just don't have that with Cousins, and I'd much rather have the athletic playmaking big who can run the floor and score instead of a lumbering center who's never had even 50% FG or >56% TS.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 09:50 PM
But there could also be arguments why he declines at those moments and what if its just flat out fatique...
That usually holds true for most players who make it to the playoffs and dont quit on the season so early.


Being the best player on the worst team or worst supporting cast in basketball while being that size...
Yeah but we are assuming he has a team good enough to at least get him to the playoffs. And its because hes that size that the expectations are so great.


If he is a PG/SG where he can open things up more then maybe it would have merit but this is a player who flat out needs help around him and carries the bulk of the load all year....
Thats just another argument for his inferiority then.



The game plan going in to every single game is either stop cousins or let cousins get his and stop everyone else because they are so bad.... Lebron is the best of both worlds really... He is the size of a center while being like a PG but outside of him you put anyone else on the kings and I doubt they win more than 35 games...

Maybe the best combination of both worlds but hes definitely not the best at both (Blake is another guy, and he actually defends opposing bigmen, albeit poorly). If I put any of the players I grade higher than Cousins on his team not only do I think they do better, I think those players produce at a superior rate in his situation. I think its harder to be efficient than it is to put up huge numbers without valuing possessions and caring about wins and losses. Like Antoine Walker could put up 20-10-5 if the team was bad enough, put him on a team expected to make noise and he couldn't find a way to be efficient. Antawn Jamison was kind of the opposite, he arguably had his finest stretch of play when he came off the bench for that same Dallas team.


If curry is on this kings team because of his lack of defense/size and the help around him they win 20 games because of the fit.... Same with a Kyrie/PG.. They would get destroyed.

Thats kind of a dumb argument since you're not even allowing those players to have a team built around them by at least finding something for the incumbent PG/Swings they would be replacing, its not like they take Cousins position and have to play Center. If GS were dumb enough to trade Curry for Cousins, the Kings wouldn't just keep the same roster makeup, they would make necessary changes to find a better balance/distribution of payroll. And even if they didn't, I have a hard time believing Curry loses that many games. Lack of size and defense doesn't change the fact that hes been the best RS player for 2 years now. Did even a young Curry being shackled by Monta lose that many games?




That draining 3 points **** will be alot less efficient when you have to play both sides of the ball and have nobody else draining them for you to take the pressure off and its not a knock on curry but what the kings would have around him... His game esp would be horrid for this kings team.
Hes better suited to take harder shots than anyone in the league. He would average 35 easily if he was forced to carry a trash roster, no doubt about it.

Shammyguy3
07-25-2016, 09:53 PM
i could see any of Cousins, Griffin, or Jimmy Buckets go here. I'm not sure who i'm gonna end up voting for yet

More-Than-Most
07-25-2016, 10:26 PM
That usually holds true for most players who make it to the playoffs and dont quit on the season so early.


Yeah but we are assuming he has a team good enough to at least get him to the playoffs. And its because hes that size that the expectations are so great.


Thats just another argument for his inferiority then.



Maybe the best combination of both worlds but hes definitely not the best at both (Blake is another guy, and he actually defends opposing bigmen, albeit poorly). If I put any of the players I grade higher than Cousins on his team not only do I think they do better, I think those players produce at a superior rate in his situation. I think its harder to be efficient than it is to put up huge numbers without valuing possessions and caring about wins and losses. Like Antoine Walker could put up 20-10-5 if the team was bad enough, put him on a team expected to make noise and he couldn't find a way to be efficient. Antawn Jamison was kind of the opposite, he arguably had his finest stretch of play when he came off the bench for that same Dallas team.


Thats kind of a dumb argument since you're not even allowing those players to have a team built around them by at least finding something for the incumbent PG/Swings they would be replacing, its not like they take Cousins position and have to play Center. If GS were dumb enough to trade Curry for Cousins, the Kings wouldn't just keep the same roster makeup, they would make necessary changes to find a better balance/distribution of payroll. And even if they didn't, I have a hard time believing Curry loses that many games. Lack of size and defense doesn't change the fact that hes been the best RS player for 2 years now. Did even a young Curry being shackled by Monta lose that many games?

Even then, I disagree. Curry doesn't win 20 games.

That draining 3 points **** will be alot less efficient when you have to play both sides of the ball and have nobody else draining them for you to take the pressure off and its not a knock on curry but what the kings would have around him... His game esp would be horrid for this kings team.

Wait you think the kings.. THE KINGS would make any changes and put balance around curry? The team that has one of if not the best Center in Basketball who keeps drafting new ones? That kings team? They dont do anything for cousins.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/2/18/11046100/kings-nba-trade-rumors-pau-gasol-draft-pick-sixers-bulls

This team?

Chronz
07-25-2016, 11:28 PM
Wait you think the kings.. THE KINGS would make any changes and put balance around curry? The team that has one of if not the best Center in Basketball who keeps drafting new ones? That kings team? They dont do anything for cousins.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/2/18/11046100/kings-nba-trade-rumors-pau-gasol-draft-pick-sixers-bulls

This team?

Yes I do, because its alot easier to build with Curry that you can afford mistakes, well at least if you dont make the mistake of trading him as GS nearly did for Bogut. And I always thought Cousins had the versatility to play both PF and C, it was worth the effort and I like the fit between he and WCS. Even bad ownership can luck into a better situation, Curry gives them a better shot thats for sure.

Either way, I still disagreed with your outlook remember. Even if the Kings were dumb enough to not balance out the roster, they have plenty of bigs to replace Cousins, certainly better than the Dubs replacing Curry.

shep33
07-26-2016, 12:04 AM
Surprised Dame hasn't gotten any love. Dude is pretty great.

More-Than-Most
07-26-2016, 01:47 AM
Yes I do, because its alot easier to build with Curry that you can afford mistakes, well at least if you dont make the mistake of trading him as GS nearly did for Bogut. And I always thought Cousins had the versatility to play both PF and C, it was worth the effort and I like the fit between he and WCS. Even bad ownership can luck into a better situation, Curry gives them a better shot thats for sure.

Either way, I still disagreed with your outlook remember. Even if the Kings were dumb enough to not balance out the roster, they have plenty of bigs to replace Cousins, certainly better than the Dubs replacing Curry.

Oh I dont disagree the kings could balance out their roster much better if they had a curry instead of a cousins because they already loaded up on centers. My point was if curry was on the kings and cousins wasnt and they kept drafting PGs instead this team would be no better off right now and adding curry doesnt win them more than 30 games in my opinion in that scenario which is why wins/losses is bogus when discussing individuals. I dont disagree cousins can be better but of the top 10 players ahead of him on this list which player has had the lack of help he has had or even half of the lack of help he has had outside of PG who shouldnt be in the top 10 period?

Hell forget the top 10... Of all the players listed in the top 10 and remaining whom has had anywhere near the lack of talent around them that cousins has had while performing like Cousins has performed? Even Harden who is efficient because he gets every call in the world which is a known fact has had help around him at times

More-Than-Most
07-26-2016, 01:52 AM
Prime Dwight, and it's a very easy decision. He was the most impactful defender in the NBA and drew constant double teams while still putting up highly efficient/solid scoring.

Cousins' combination of a lack of leadership and simply having a low BBIQ are imo without question part of the reason why his teams have never been able to even sniff .500. I've seen Blake absolutely carry the Clippers without CP3 (due to injury) for extended periods of time. We just don't have that with Cousins, and I'd much rather have the athletic playmaking big who can run the floor and score instead of a lumbering center who's never had even 50% FG or >56% TS.

Yea I would rather have prime Dwight as well... Lakers fans give him a ton of **** on this site but I got laughed at when I said he still get damn near a max when people assumed he deserves 15 mill a year... Prime Dwight was amazing and Dwight is still pretty great its just when you get labeled something people stick with it and him leaving LA people scream he lacks heart but dont acknowledge he didnt want to play with Kobe.

ewing
07-26-2016, 08:23 AM
Cousins is a clown

mightybosstone
07-26-2016, 08:46 AM
I'm torn here between Lillard, Irving and Griffin. Regular season, Lillard clearly had the superior season, but it's tough to overlook Irving's dominance in the playoffs. Then again, a healthy Blake Griffin might be superior to both players. But I'm beginning to wonder if the dominant guy we saw two years ago was the anomaly, and that's the best season we're ever going to see out of Blake.

For consistency's sake, I'm going to give the slightest of edges here to Lillard. But I could have easily gone with one of the other two guys.

Green_Monster
07-26-2016, 09:31 AM
Cousins, it's a shame he dropped out of the top 10.

cmellofan15
07-26-2016, 09:52 AM
I firmly believe Kevin Love could do what Cousins does for the kings, so BG is the obvious choice here.

mavwar53
07-26-2016, 10:34 AM
Blake for me, I don't like that cousins has gotten lazy IMO. 3.2 3PA for what should be the most dominant inside presence. He's not terrible at 33% but 210 3's was shocking to see when I looked it up. Work your *** of and get down low. Plus he had a great passing PG so it should have helped his point production from the inside.

allSUAVE
07-26-2016, 11:00 AM
Cousins should get the 10th spot over Green :facepalm:

Chronz
07-26-2016, 11:23 AM
Blake for me, I don't like that cousins has gotten lazy IMO. 3.2 3PA for what should be the most dominant inside presence. He's not terrible at 33% but 210 3's was shocking to see when I looked it up. Work your *** of and get down low. Plus he had a great passing PG so it should have helped his point production from the inside.

Sounds like you'd be surprised to hear how having Rondo has stunted post play. He did it back in Boston to KG, he helps get you open Mid-range shots tho.


I'm torn here between Lillard, Irving and Griffin. Regular season, Lillard clearly had the superior season, but it's tough to overlook Irving's dominance in the playoffs. Then again, a healthy Blake Griffin might be superior to both players. But I'm beginning to wonder if the dominant guy we saw two years ago was the anomaly, and that's the best season we're ever going to see out of Blake.

For consistency's sake, I'm going to give the slightest of edges here to Lillard. But I could have easily gone with one of the other two guys.
Irving was a detriment for a big chunk of the RS before he worked himself back into game speed and he had a better playoff run that lots of superior players, that kind of happens when you have the luxury of not having to carry your team. Like why not have Kyrie above Harden if thats your reasoning?

Not quite sure I understand your Blake comment, care to reference the seasons/numbers because Blake is very much the same player so long as hes healthy.

Lillard? Hes not Blake, just lucky Blake+CP3 were injured. Lillard would prolly be my next choice, Kyrie could very well be that player but the advantages of his situation are just too hard to ignore so he needs to sustain this high level of play for more than a few stretches before I ignore that he doesnt face anywhere near the defensive pressure Lillard has in playoff series. Then again, when Lillard was playing behind LMA, I dont recall him having a burst like Irving just had.

Im gonna look that one over some more but only after Blake is off the board. Cousins is after the PG's imo

mightybosstone
07-26-2016, 11:55 AM
Irving was a detriment for a big chunk of the RS before he worked himself back into game speed and he had a better playoff run that lots of superior players, that kind of happens when you have the luxury of not having to carry your team. Like why not have Kyrie above Harden if thats your reasoning?
Sample size. I'm not necessarily going to knock a guy for underperforming for a series or two in the playoffs if he was great in the regular season, like Lillard and Harden. But if a guy steps up and has a postseason like Irving had where he stepped his game up and was a huge, integral piece in his franchise winning a championship, I think that speaks volumes to his big-game prowess and deserves a bump in reputation.

That being said, I took his subpar regular season into account, and I'd probably still rank Irving behind Lillard and Griffn.


Not quite sure I understand your Blake comment, care to reference the seasons/numbers because Blake is very much the same player so long as hes healthy.
Two years ago, Blake posted essentially 24/10/4 with a career high in TS% (58.3), PER (23.9), WS (12.2) and WS/48 (.205). And after that season, I thought he was surely going to keep seeing a steady improvement and vault himself into the role as the Clippers best player. But instead, he took a slight step back. His usage has been roughly the same and his AST% has seen a bump, but his scoring efficiency and rebounding have dropped off pretty significantly from that season. He's not getting to the line as much and his FG% and TRB% have steadily fallen over the last 4-5 seasons.

Basically, I thought he was going to be a consistent 24-25 PPG, 9-10 RPG, 4-5 APG kinda player, and he's just kinda settled into 21/8/5. That's not to suggest that he's not still fantastic. He might be the best passing big man in the league. But I just think he could be more dominant offensively and on the glass than he's shown the last two seasons.


Lillard? Hes not Blake, just lucky Blake+CP3 were injured. Lillard would prolly be my next choice, Kyrie could very well be that player but the advantages of his situation are just too hard to ignore so he needs to sustain this high level of play for more than a few stretches before I ignore that he doesnt face anywhere near the defensive pressure Lillard has in playoff series. Then again, when Lillard was playing behind LMA, I dont recall him having a burst like Irving just had.
Lillard's leap forward as a scorer last season deserved some recognition, and I think he at least belongs in the top 10 conversation. I'm just splitting hairs between he and Griffin at this point, but I just think he's improved (big spike in scoring and USG%, but no dropoff in efficiency) while Griffin has seen a slight decline or—at the very least—some stagnation.


Im gonna look that one over some more but only after Blake is off the board. Cousins is after the PG's imo
I just have a hard time voting for Cousins with his shot selection so poor and having played for a team that's been so bad for so long. I admit the guy is a remarkable offensive talent, but he's still kind of a black hole, and I have a tough time justifying a vote for him when there are still so many great players playing for great teams still on the board. And I get that basketball is a team sport, and you shouldn't downgrade a player solely because his team isn't very good. But with as many coaching and personnel changes as Sacramento has made over the years, you'd think they would have sniffed a .500 season at least once, and they haven't even come close.

Hell, even Kevin Love's Timberwolves had a 40-win season. And—like Love—I get the sense that Cousins will always just be a "great stats, bad team" or "great team, OK stats" guy. I just don't get the sense that he's ever going to be the alpha dog on a good basketball team.

Hawkeye15
07-26-2016, 05:35 PM
Quick question if you don't mind bro. Who'd would you picked prime Dwight or Cousins?

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Dwight, in a molten lava landslide...

Chronz
07-26-2016, 09:13 PM
Two years ago, Blake posted essentially 24/10/4 with a career high in TS% (58.3), PER (23.9), WS (12.2) and WS/48 (.205). And after that season, I thought he was surely going to keep seeing a steady improvement and vault himself into the role as the Clippers best player. But instead, he took a slight step back. His usage has been roughly the same and his AST% has seen a bump, but his scoring efficiency and rebounding have dropped off pretty significantly from that season. He's not getting to the line as much and his FG% and TRB% have steadily fallen over the last 4-5 seasons.


It sounds like you're punishing Blake for being a consistent power because those 2 seasons seem like the same player impact wise to me, its really nit picking considering how close his overall productive value has remained. Yes he had a career best RS the year you mentioned but he had his career best playoff showing in the following year. A dip of a single PER point isn't a big deal to me, especially if you more than make up for it with your playoff performance. I forget the circumstances behind his injuries that slight dip year but I also remember his career best season came with CP3 out for a stretch of games. Maybe the 2 help explain abit of that loss. Maybe DJ's ascension as a full time starter have dipped into Blakes rebounding as well? Like wouldn't you expect Blakes rebounding to dip if the team is improving on the glass? Hes also spacing the floor more for DJ so that hes maintained his efficiency while expanding his range is a huge boon for the offense. That added range has helped his playmaking too.

Looking at the numbers in those 2 years, he played 916 minutes without CP3 in 2014 and a mere 187 minutes in 2015. Maybe that explains some of the dip then the rest we begin to enter the realm of randomness. As for his WS drop is entirely a result of the decline of the Clippers overall unit and hes getting less credit for individual stops from his rebounding, even though I doubt hes changed much as a rebounder/defender overall. I wish we could calculate WS with play by play data, I have a feeling Blake is getting punished for the teams decline elsewhere, like mostly the lack of depth because if you look at our primary core, or basically any lineup that includes CP3+Blake, it was more successful in the year that Blake had this alleged regression. The team stats that WS relies on only sees a team decline.

Nice tidbit, Per36 his numbers jumped to 25-9-4 with improved efficiency the year with the greater sample size without CP3.



Basically, I thought he was going to be a consistent 24-25 PPG, 9-10 RPG, 4-5 APG kinda player, and he's just kinda settled into 21/8/5. That's not to suggest that he's not still fantastic. He might be the best passing big man in the league. But I just think he could be more dominant offensively and on the glass than he's shown the last two seasons.

I think hes the best offensive PF in the game, he dissects teams in multiple ways. He has tough matchups but I think everyone does these days. Its the other end I am disappointed with, in the playoffs he always tries harder and winds up running out of gas towards the end, its like clockwork with him. People have wondered about his stamina and seemingly declining motor. Hes admitted to pacing himself in the RS, CP3 does the same. Its why DJ is so important, hes the work horse who makes the game so much easier for the rest of the team.


Lillard's leap forward as a scorer last season deserved some recognition, and I think he at least belongs in the top 10 conversation. I'm just splitting hairs between he and Griffin at this point, but I just think he's improved (big spike in scoring and USG%, but no dropoff in efficiency) while Griffin has seen a slight decline or—at the very least—some stagnation.

Im expecting Blake's best year yet but my argument for his superiority has to do with him being the same player he was a year or so ago. Come playoffs, hes still the same guy who can post crazy lines and I've never seen Lillard shine that way. This past year was a throw away season, if you look at how he was playing before the injury its basically the same as he was in the playoffs the year prior. He was on route to having his best season ever only the team misdiagnosed his injury. Heres hoping we dont **** this up this time cuz talent wise, Blakes a ****ing beast.

More-Than-Most
07-26-2016, 09:20 PM
Lol Chronz I hate you.. You killed all my arguments xD

LivinLakers
07-26-2016, 09:22 PM
I heard a report on ESPN radio that Blake has injury issues that plagued him last year. It makes sense then that his numbers dipped. He has a partially torn quad muscle which would serious impact jumping and explosiveness. Both of which are Blake's strengths. Guys that are super athletic but little else always scare me because what happens if the get an injury? They become a scrub overnight. Not to say Blake is or will be a scrub, but if quad issues are really, then that would move him down on this list and reason enough for Cousins to be ahead of him.
http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/blake-griffin-leg-issues-serious/313299

Sadds The Gr8
07-27-2016, 02:03 AM
should be Blake, but Cousins the poison will prolly get it.

nycericanguy
07-27-2016, 09:52 AM
welp im done.... Cant even believe cousins is probably going to drop out of the top 11.

you sound like those posters that were saying Love was a top 5 player because he was putting up 26 & 15 on garbage teams in meaningless games.

DMC has reached 30 wins ONCE in his career, no true star struggles to get to 30 wins every year. The best C in the game should and in the past HAVE carried their teams to playoffs and 50+ wins easily.

But then you're also the guy that said Robin Lopez is better than Wade & Rose...lol

nycericanguy
07-27-2016, 09:55 AM
even though this list isn't the best, it's crazy that no team has even two players in the top 10... yet GSW has THREE! and Klay isn't far off.

Chronz
07-27-2016, 12:23 PM
Guys Cousins is not better than Blake for **** sake. Blake as a rookie on a ****** Clippers team has had a better season than any of Cousins. His numbers are better, hes a better winner, the ONLY thing Cousins has is that he can play C and actually anchor a defense when hes motivated, but hes never been motivated for long so who cares.

Vee-Rex
07-27-2016, 12:37 PM
Guys Cousins is not better than Blake for **** sake. Blake as a rookie on a ****** Clippers team has had a better season than any of Cousins. His numbers are better, hes a better winner, the ONLY thing Cousins has is that he can play C and actually anchor a defense when hes motivated, but hes never been motivated for long so who cares.

If anything I think you should be more outraged that Draymond Green is above Griffin, not Cousins. If you swap Cousins and Draymond Green do you think the Kings would ever win more than they did with Cousins, defense included? I don't think so.

Cousins has never had anything even resembling a leader/intelligent player playing beside him. Even Lillard has CJ McCollum.

IMO Cousins/Griffin is a bit of a toss-up, but Green should be directly after those guys, not before.

Chronz
07-27-2016, 12:47 PM
If anything I think you should be more outraged that Draymond Green is above Griffin, not Cousins. If you swap Cousins and Draymond Green do you think the Kings would ever win more than they did with Cousins, defense included? I don't think so.

Cousins has never had anything even resembling a leader/intelligent player playing beside him. Even Lillard has CJ McCollum.

IMO Cousins/Griffin is a bit of a toss-up, but Green should be directly after those guys, not before.

I dont like that argument because if you apply it to the Clippers, Green makes us better than Blake ever could simply because he provides EXACTLY what we need, the more I think about it, DG has become THE preeminent PF, hes in the mold of what execs want from a modern 4. I get the whole he cant carry an offense thing but no team would ever add him expecting that and I honestly do think he could make teams better than alot of #1 option types. Its sort of like the debates I've been having with people throughout DJ's development. People point to his lack of shot creation or any sort of post skill but in todays nba, giving the ball to a player on the block and watching him pound away isn't as valuable anymore, even Cousins isn't trying to do that as much anymore. Like who do you think starts for Team USA, DJ or Cousins? IIRC, during the World Cup it was DJ who was getting the important minutes.

The league has become so that its pretty easy to find scoring at other positions, what is of the utmost importance from your bigmen today is that they either protect the rim or space the floor, Green does both with the added ability to put it on the floor and survey options.

I love Green, I'd kill to have that psycho on my squad.

RB#20
07-27-2016, 12:53 PM
Meh. Russ should be 2nd behind LeBron, Curry should be 3, Durant 4, Leonard is correct at 5, Davis and CP3 should swap, George follows and the rest can go however. It's not a terrible list though, one of the better ones I've seen since you guys have been doing it.

Vee-Rex
07-27-2016, 12:55 PM
I dont like that argument because if you apply it to the Clippers, Green makes us better than Blake ever could simply because he provides EXACTLY what we need, the more I think about it, DG has become THE preeminent PF, hes in the mold of what execs want from a modern 4. I get the whole he cant carry an offense thing but no team would ever add him expecting that and I honestly do think he could make teams better than alot of #1 option types. Its sort of like the debates I've been having with people throughout DJ's development. People point to his lack of shot creation or any sort of post skill but in todays nba, giving the ball to a player on the block and watching him pound away isn't as valuable anymore, even Cousins isn't trying to do that as much anymore. Like who do you think starts for Team USA, DJ or Cousins? IIRC, during the World Cup it was DJ who was getting the important minutes.

The league has become so that its pretty easy to find scoring at other positions, what is of the utmost importance from your bigmen today is that they either protect the rim or space the floor, Green does both with the added ability to put it on the floor and survey options.

I love Green, I'd kill to have that psycho on my squad.

My beef with DG's position has nothing to do with what he's capable of (he's a true talent), but more-so with where people rate him. I love DJ's game as well but you don't see anyone calling him a top 10 player. He's not even on the list in this thread to make top 20.

DG is a better player than DJ, but he absolutely needs the perfect system/players around him to perform at the level he's performing.

Name one other top 10 player (or 20 for that matter) that absolutely needs a certain system of players/philosophy around them to be the player that they are.

Sadds The Gr8
07-27-2016, 01:06 PM
My beef with DG's position has nothing to do with what he's capable of (he's a true talent), but more-so with where people rate him. I love DJ's game as well but you don't see anyone calling him a top 10 player. He's not even on the list in this thread to make top 20.

DG is a better player than DJ, but he absolutely needs the perfect system/players around him to perform at the level he's performing.

Name one other top 10 player (or 20 for that matter) that absolutely needs a certain system of players/philosophy around them to be the player that they are.
I don't think he needs a "perfect" system/players. All he needs is a good PnR PG, and there are like 20 in the league today

Vee-Rex
07-27-2016, 01:56 PM
I don't think he needs a "perfect" system/players. All he needs is a good PnR PG, and there are like 20 in the league today

A lot of his assists don't come out of the PnR, though. GS runs such a high-octane but incredibly smooth offensive system that emphasizes sharp cuts and premier 3-point shooting.

If you give him a good PnR PG and just throw him on the 76ers his individual performance wouldn't be as good as it is now.

You look at a guy like Iguodala who has always been a gifted passer. He ranked 8th (8th!) in assists to turnover ratio in 2016 (highest ranked of his career). Draymond Green was 40th. Of those top 40 positions, only Tayshaun Prince and Al Horford were non-point guards. Prince's USG was only at 8% (compared to Green's 18.8%) and Horford was in a ball-movement/pass-heavy offense himself in Atlanta.

So what this is telling me is that Iguodala and Green are not only excelling and balling like crazy, but they're also benefiting from fluent offensive systems.

If we're not gonna hold it against Green who he needs a particular system around him to maintain his numbers, why do we criticize the likes of Deandre Jordan's deficiencies (his FTs won't be as problematic with the changes) and how he is limited offensively?

I maintain Green is a top player in the world, but in the NBA I don't think he's top 10, let alone some of the more radical assertions that he's the best PF and/or top 5-6 player in the league.

mightybosstone
07-27-2016, 01:58 PM
It sounds like you're punishing Blake for being a consistent power because those 2 seasons seem like the same player impact wise to me, its really nit picking considering how close his overall productive value has remained.
I think "punishing" is the wrong word, and it really is more "nit picking." When you have so many guys who are this close in terms of production, you have to look at something to give one guy an edge of another. And I just kind of fee like Lillard made a huge step forward last season and Blake has take a small step back. Overall, I still think they're very close, but I like what Lillard has done in becoming a versatile go-to scorer and playmaker for a feisty, overachieving Portland.


I think hes the best offensive PF in the game, he dissects teams in multiple ways. He has tough matchups but I think everyone does these days. Its the other end I am disappointed with, in the playoffs he always tries harder and winds up running out of gas towards the end, its like clockwork with him. People have wondered about his stamina and seemingly declining motor. Hes admitted to pacing himself in the RS, CP3 does the same. Its why DJ is so important, hes the work horse who makes the game so much easier for the rest of the team.
I agree with all of this. He's certainly the best offensive PF in the league, and you could make a solid case for best PF overall. And he has absolutely stepped up in the postseason over the last few years. But his so-so defense hurts his reputation a bit. That being said, defense is certainly not a strong conversation starter for Lillard, Irving or Cousins at this point either, which is why I don't think a lot of people are weighing that end of the floor too much between these guys.


Im expecting Blake's best year yet but my argument for his superiority has to do with him being the same player he was a year or so ago. Come playoffs, hes still the same guy who can post crazy lines and I've never seen Lillard shine that way. This past year was a throw away season, if you look at how he was playing before the injury its basically the same as he was in the playoffs the year prior. He was on route to having his best season ever only the team misdiagnosed his injury. Heres hoping we dont **** this up this time cuz talent wise, Blakes a ****ing beast.
He is a beast, but I think you said it best when you called last year a "throwaway season." When it comes down to these votes, we sometimes have to ask ourselves "What have you done for me lately?" I think Lillard had the more impressive overall season despite Blake being a little more consistent overall the last few years.

But I definitely think Blake is slipping a bit too far based on last year. Then again, look at Harden. The guy is a season from finishing 2nd in the MVP voting and practically being a lock for the top 5 player discussion. But he has a slightly off year and falls all the way to 9th. It is kind of ridiculous to me that Cousins is beating out Blake. Regardless of Blake's season, he is unquestionably a better basketball player than Boogie and has proven himself so, so much more.

Dade County
07-27-2016, 06:55 PM
Add Wade to the next list of options.

Shammyguy3
07-27-2016, 07:23 PM
#12 is here

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?912720-12th-Best-Player-in-the-NBA

JasonJohnHorn
07-27-2016, 07:58 PM
In my mind, Klay is the best shooting guard in the league. I don't know how he isn't top ten. I realize there is a back log of great SFs, and Klay gets gleamed over because he isn't the best player on his team, but you put him on pretty much any team with Curry, KD, or LBJ, and he's averaging close to 30 a game.

More-Than-Most
07-27-2016, 08:11 PM
There should be no *****ing about Cousins when PG is the 8th best player in the NBA.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 10:59 AM
There should be no *****ing about Cousins when PG is the 8th best player in the NBA.

Agreed but people seem to think 7 games makes a career here.

Giannis94
07-28-2016, 01:35 PM
Why isn't Giannis an option? **** like this baffles me

Vee-Rex
07-28-2016, 04:34 PM
Why isn't Giannis an option? **** like this baffles me

No worries. This time next year Giannis is gonna be plastered all over these lists. I'm predicting a beast season and him leading the Bucks to the playoffs while putting up something like 20/10/6.