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View Full Version : Who was more valuable in the 2000 Finals, Kobe or Glen Rice?



Chronz
07-21-2016, 10:30 PM
Im going through the archives watching Kobes playoff runs on my favorite youtube channel and I finally got to the 2000 season. Kobe was without a doubt the better player but he suffered a deliberate ankle sprain at the feet of Jalen Rose in G2 and was hobbled much of the way. Its a decent debate for the simple fact that Kobe shot 36% whereas Glen shot 63% from 3 which was key. Neither was particularly excellent but with Shaq in full on beast mode it didn't matter much.

Kobe had that great moment where he took over once Shaq fouled out and everyone remembers that, but Rice's moment is much less heralded. Few talk about the game where Kobe plays 9 minutes and Rice steps up to drop 21-4-3 and hits 5-6 from distance to punish the doubles on Shaq. Without that performance, do the Lakers win such a close game? Heres the quick run down:

G1: Rice sucks balls but the Lakers win in a route with Rice not being needed. Kobe goes for 14-3-5 vs 3-3-1 for Rice.

G2: Kobe gets injured and Rice outplays Reggie Miller in a close win for LAL. Kobe posts 2-1-4 vs 21-3-6 for Rice.

G3: A loss for the Lakers with Kobe missing the game entirely and Rice plays awful on both ends posting 7-1-1.

G4: Kobe returns and has his "moment" in OT. Posts 28-4-5 vs 11-1-1 for Rice.

G5: Lakers get blown out and Kobe invokes his inner stoner by going 4-20. Kobe posts 8-5-3 vs 11-0-2 for Rice.

G6: Lakers win their first title of the decade, Shaq is rightfully the MVP. Kobe posts 26-10-4 but shoots 8-27 whereas Rice puts up 16PTS hits all his 3's and commits zero turnovers.

For the series;
Kobe avg 15.6 PTS - 4.6 REB - 4.2 AST (.36FG%/.200 3P%/.411 TS%) in 5 games
Glen avg 11.5 PTS - 2.5 REB - 1.7 AST (.40FG%/.632 3P%/.541 TS% ) in 6 games

If we remove the game Kobe didn't play and look at Rice's averages through 5 games he averages 12.4 - 2.8 - 1.8 AST (FG%: 410 / .687 3P%)



Who you got?

McAllen Tx
07-21-2016, 10:40 PM
Gary Vitti

Tony_Starks
07-21-2016, 11:06 PM
AC Green

Chronz
07-21-2016, 11:10 PM
Gary Vitti
lol, funny.

AC Green
Not Funny.

FlashBolt
07-22-2016, 12:34 AM
If we're being honest, Kobe has had three rather horrible NBA Finals. I don't know why it's never mentioned when people say he has five rings.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 01:28 AM
If we're being honest, Kobe has had three rather horrible NBA Finals. I don't know why it's never mentioned when people say he has five rings.

chilling take... is that a thing?

europagnpilgrim
07-22-2016, 02:31 AM
Have to say Kobe, he was more valuable to the team as the mighty Robin to Shaq's Batman, Rice was similar to Horry and Fisher in that Lakers version but prior to that with Hornets he could drop 40 in a heartbeat , he was always a sniper from long range and that carried over nicely to fit with that team led by Shaq and also by the pct you posted him shooting from deep, didn't know he shot that well from range that series, no matter the sample size

IKnowHoops
07-22-2016, 02:45 AM
Kobe. It was Kobe.

thenaj17
07-22-2016, 04:41 AM
my favorite youtube channel

Can i have a link please Chronz?

As for the most valuable, Lakers don't win game 2 without Rice, game 4 without Kobe and game 6 without either of them.

It's a push outside of Shaq in 2000 really but the edge has to go to Kobe as he had more defensive attention. Nobody was keying in on Glen Rice with Shaq and Kobe on the court. Obviously 2000 was Kobe's least influential Finals but with a really bad ankle injury, he still outperformed Rice

PowerHouse
07-22-2016, 08:26 AM
It was easily Kobe simply because he had more to be responsible for. He was a primary ball handler and ran the Laker offense while Rice was just a catch and shoot guy mostly hanging around the perimeter. Kobe had to guard the other team's best player and was able to contain him to a .413 fg% for the series whereas Rose was allowed to play higher than his usual capabilities due to Rice's lackluster defense to the tune of 23 per game and .467%.

Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 09:07 AM
Kobe Bryant 2000 WCF average against Portland

20points 5 rebounds 6 assist 1 st 2 blocks fg43% 3pt 52%, ortng 109 ( Shaq 111) drtng 108 ( Shaq 108)

Led the team in assist, steals, and Blocks ( yes more than Shaq).

All while taking turns defending Steve Smith, Bonzi Wells, and Scottie Pippen. Played the second most minutes on the team. Game winning break down drive to the rack, assist to Shaq.

At 21 years old.

Facts.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 09:42 AM
Kobe, he actually guarded people during that run.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 12:20 PM
You made a side note for Rice to ignore the game that Kobe missed, but forgot to make a side note on how the 9 minute game affected Kobe's per game average for the series. Even so, it's easily Kobe as he did far more for the team on both ends of the court. Rice may have been super efficient from 3 that series but he still scored just 11.5 PPG and did little else. This thread is glorifying a spot up shooter who wasn't even the 3rd most valuable player for the Lakers that series IMO. That would go to Ron Harper.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 12:26 PM
You made a side note for Rice to ignore the game that Kobe missed, but forgot to make a side note on how the 9 minute game affected Kobe's per game average for the series. Even so, it's easily Kobe as he did far more for the team on both ends of the court. Rice may have been super efficient from 3 that series but he still scored just 11.5 PPG and did little else. This thread is glorifying a spot up shooter who wasn't even the 3rd most valuable player for the Lakers that series IMO. That would go to Ron Harper.
Thanks for summing it up. /thread.

You made a side note for Rice to ignore the game that Kobe missed, but forgot to make a side note on how the 9 minute game affected Kobe's per game average for the series. Even so, it's easily Kobe as he did far more for the team on both ends of the court. Rice may have been super efficient from 3 that series but he still scored just 11.5 PPG and did little else. This thread is glorifying a spot up shooter who wasn't even the 3rd most valuable player for the Lakers that series IMO. That would go to Ron Harper.


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Jewelz0376
07-22-2016, 12:56 PM
Who was rice guarding??

What was Kobe guarding??

Rice was a spot up shooter. How many of Rices open looks were due to the attention Shaq and Kobe were getting?

LA4life24/8
07-22-2016, 02:12 PM
Yeah I'd have to say kobe. He did it on both ends of the court. And honestly without kobe they may not have won the series. Obviously without Shaq they woulda never made it there though

rhymeratic
07-22-2016, 02:34 PM
Honestly I'm 32 and I don't remember how Glen Rice played during that run. I felt like he sacrificed his game to blend in to that team. He just provided spacing and outside shooting. They were equal, they won, does this really matter???

Bruno
07-22-2016, 06:53 PM
I mean from a certain point of view I can buy an argument for Rice. the three point shooting was huge, especially in a post-season where Horry shot 29%, Shaw shot 32% and Harper shot 23% from three.

I think the game four heroics from Kobe and Rices generally mediocre post-season (12.1 PER in the post-season, less than half his regular season WS/48) skew the memory strongly in favor of Kobe. Rice disappeared from three games of the WCF and Kobe really became Kobe in that series. If we consider the defensive role Kobe was playing in 2000, arguably the height of his defensive powers I think its probably Kobe but Rice is always understated. Two years away from his last all-star nod at 32 years old, he was either a legit #2 or #3 options or a role player from game to game.

So maybe I can buy an argument that Rice was the #2 option in the finals. but being the #2 option is an offensive thing, it doesn't always guarantee that were also talking about the teams second best player, overall. maybe the presence of Rice and the less concentrated offense is why Kobe could be such a defensive presence in 2000, less heavy lifting on offense. overall impact could have been huge, from that perspective.

More-Than-Most
07-22-2016, 08:06 PM
Honestly I'm 32 and I don't remember how Glen Rice played during that run. I felt like he sacrificed his game to blend in to that team. He just provided spacing and outside shooting. They were equal, they won, does this really matter???

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO your avatar :cheers:

JasonJohnHorn
07-23-2016, 03:45 PM
Hard to say. I think offensively, Rice was important to spreading the floor in the triangle, so while Kobe was the better player, Phil really needed to spread the floor if he was going to make the triangle work with a big man instead of perimeter players.

Also, they needed somebody to drop bomb like Reggie to keep pace.

So in that respect, one could argue that while Kobe was the better player, Rice was more important that series.

savvy1803
07-23-2016, 08:12 PM
Gary Vitti

Yup another straw for the straw man OP , his obsession with Kobe is laughable at this point and don't forget the narrative must be kept up at all cost lol . His poll won't even show the 5 Mensa members who voted for Rice , enjoy the chuckle at this point ... i always do . Oh and by the way Chris Paul needs more help immediately !

Bruno
07-23-2016, 08:32 PM
Yup another straw for the straw man OP , his obsession with Kobe is laughable at this point and don't forget the narrative must be kept up at all cost lol . His poll won't even show the 5 Mensa members who voted for Rice , enjoy the chuckle at this point ... i always do . Oh and by the way Chris Paul needs more help immediately !

we can entertain ideas without accepting them, thats where all the fun is in sports comparisons.

Kevj77
07-23-2016, 09:45 PM
Kobe's "moment came at an important time in the series. He took over late in the 4th and OT with Shaq fouled out. It put the Lakers up 3-1 instead of a series tied at 2-2. Kobe also fought through injury to do it.

Tony_Starks
07-25-2016, 09:29 AM
I can't believe people even took this "question" seriously. Kobe played on a bum ankle and had the signature take over moment of the Finals with Shaq fouled out that swung a series that was up for grabs in our favor.

He played great defense.

Glen Rice shot wide open uncontested jumpers as a result of the attention of Shaq/ Kobe.

He did not play even good defense.

As a matter of fact we didn't even bring Rice back after that chip, Fox was better in that spot.

thenaj17
07-25-2016, 10:14 AM
I can't believe people even took this "question" seriously. Kobe played on a bum ankle and had the signature take over moment of the Finals with Shaq fouled out that swung a series that was up for grabs in our favor.

He played great defense.

Glen Rice shot wide open uncontested jumpers as a result of the attention of Shaq/ Kobe.

He did not play even good defense.

As a matter of fact we didn't even bring Rice back after that chip, Fox was better in that spot.

The lengths some people go to when they want to discredit any of Kobe's achievements is astonishing. How anyone can think Rice was more important is beyond a joke.

The same is starting to happen to LeBron and that is getting embarrassing too

Tony_Starks
07-25-2016, 10:21 AM
The lengths some people go to when they want to discredit any of Kobe's achievements is astonishing. How anyone can think Rice was more important is beyond a joke.

The same is starting to happen to LeBron and that is getting embarrassing too


It's beyond astonishing, Kobe gets a special category of hate/ discrediting. Like "which one of his rings actually count" type hate/ discrediting.

At the end of the day I'm just glad all the accomplishments are there on his resume. All the discrediting and backhanded complimenting revisionist history in the world can't take those away.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 04:11 PM
Can i have a link please Chronz?

As for the most valuable, Lakers don't win game 2 without Rice, game 4 without Kobe and game 6 without either of them.

It's a push outside of Shaq in 2000 really but the edge has to go to Kobe as he had more defensive attention. Nobody was keying in on Glen Rice with Shaq and Kobe on the court. Obviously 2000 was Kobe's least influential Finals but with a really bad ankle injury, he still outperformed Rice

Youtube channel is NBAShowtime: https://www.youtube.com/user/sera7ares
Immense library and hes still adding to it.

I thought about the defensive attention argument but I wonder how much of a difference it really makes when the gameplan was to stop Shaq at all costs. Like its hard to shade a perimeter player consistently when you're already loading up on their center, I mean would anyone make the argument that Kobe wouldn't be anywhere near as productive if he didn't have Shaq drawing so much attention? Why would it hold much sway here?

I feel like Shaq absorbed so much of the attention that whatever was left wasn't that significant in this series but I will admit it is in Kobe's advantage.


It was easily Kobe simply because he had more to be responsible for. He was a primary ball handler and ran the Laker offense while Rice was just a catch and shoot guy mostly hanging around the perimeter. Kobe had to guard the other team's best player and was able to contain him to a .413 fg% for the series whereas Rose was allowed to play higher than his usual capabilities due to Rice's lackluster defense to the tune of 23 per game and .467%.
Its not that simple tho, having the greater responsibility doesn't completely exonerate your deficiencies in a comparison. Its the classic Tmac vs Shane Battier debate I had when Tmac was on the decline with the Rockets. Its clear that Tmac had more responsibilities because that was his game but as his talent diminished, his style of play wasn't more influential than just having Battier out there. What Battier provided was more valuable to a team that could already gear its offense towards a star bigman (Yao).

That said, Glen Rice is no Battier defensively and your point about Rose playing above his standards is likely a testament to that lack of defense. I honestly dont remember how he defended but I do remember coming away thinking Rose might become a player. Ill check the tape but was Kobe really defending at a high level after his injury?



You made a side note for Rice to ignore the game that Kobe missed, but forgot to make a side note on how the 9 minute game affected Kobe's per game average for the series. Even so, it's easily Kobe as he did far more for the team on both ends of the court. Rice may have been super efficient from 3 that series but he still scored just 11.5 PPG and did little else. This thread is glorifying a spot up shooter who wasn't even the 3rd most valuable player for the Lakers that series IMO. That would go to Ron Harper.
Why Ron? And yeah he was a spot up shooter, dude was excelling at that role at a pretty high level and Kobe was having an awful series. I do think Kobe was better but I wondered if anyone thought it would be a debate.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 04:17 PM
Who was rice guarding??

What was Kobe guarding??

Rice was a spot up shooter. How many of Rices open looks were due to the attention Shaq and Kobe were getting?
Well he had his best stretch in the minutes Kobe wasn't around to take his touches/shot attempts but it was a very short sample so I am curious as well, gonna take a look at Rice's shot chart and see how many were off Kobe's penetration vs Shaq's post ups.

And one thing I dislike is the idea that spot up shooters dont help stars. Its always, oh they drew attention and kicked it out and rarely do you hear the same people mention when the shooter prevented the help attention by his mere presence or acknowledge that he made the defense pay for disrespecting his skill.

I get that the star has it harder but there are circumstances where a limited role exceeds its own value.

As for Kobe's defense, I remember thinking back then that he CLAMPED DOWN on Reggie that first game but in this the announcers seemed to agree he was just bricking open shots and Reggie cosigned. Thats one thing the highlights dont show, the shot prevention and the shots forced.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 04:32 PM
Yup another straw for the straw man OP , his obsession with Kobe is laughable at this point and don't forget the narrative must be kept up at all cost lol . His poll won't even show the 5 Mensa members who voted for Rice , enjoy the chuckle at this point ... i always do . Oh and by the way Chris Paul needs more help immediately !

I dont think you know what a strawman is. Obsession? Sounds like a preemptive excuse to start your agenda. Hate to break the news to you but its not offensive to recognize how poorly Kobe played in this Finals. And obviously CP3 needs more help, do you not pay attention to the teams hes lost to and what it takes for them to win? Lemme guess, CP3 is suppose to anchor the paint on top of being the games best floor general. LMFAO


Kobe's "moment came at an important time in the series. He took over late in the 4th and OT with Shaq fouled out. It put the Lakers up 3-1 instead of a series tied at 2-2. Kobe also fought through injury to do it.

You dont get extra credit for fighting through injury tho. The baskets are still worth the same amount of points so I dont see the point here. Nobody is saying he wasn't injured, just recognizing the consequences of that reality.

Kobe was better for his play throughout but if you ask me which moment was greater, it was Rice for the fact that he had to fill in for his fallen teammate for much longer

There is some extra value in going up 3-1 vs 2-2 but is it that different from going up 2-0 vs 1-1. I suppose it is but I would argue it was more relevant that Kobe filled in for Shaq whereas Glen filled in as a #2.


I can't believe people even took this "question" seriously. Kobe played on a bum ankle and had the signature take over moment of the Finals with Shaq fouled out that swung a series that was up for grabs in our favor.

He played great defense.

Glen Rice shot wide open uncontested jumpers as a result of the attention of Shaq/ Kobe.

He did not play even good defense.

As a matter of fact we didn't even bring Rice back after that chip, Fox was better in that spot.
LOL, I knew you would fall to the trap of going OFF TOPIC by bringing up what Kobe did in another series. Glad to see your so offended by a truly logical question. Dont be such a fan boy, everyone knows Kobe was injured, thats kind of why the topic exists. You think this topic gets made if Kobe is healthy? LMFAO


It's beyond astonishing, Kobe gets a special category of hate/ discrediting. Like "which one of his rings actually count" type hate/ discrediting.

At the end of the day I'm just glad all the accomplishments are there on his resume. All the discrediting and backhanded complimenting revisionist history in the world can't take those away.
Feel free to post in those threads. Its not revisionist history to highlight Kobe's poor showing in a Finals win LOL, its almost as if you want people to disregard standards and context.

Tony_Starks
07-25-2016, 04:44 PM
You just said Kobe doesn't get extra credit for playing through injury.

In the Finals.

That says all that needs to be said about your take on that Finals, perhaps you really should go back and watch the tape I still got it on VHS I'll send it to you!

Chronz
07-25-2016, 06:31 PM
You just said Kobe doesn't get extra credit for playing through injury.

In the Finals.

That says all that needs to be said about your take on that Finals, perhaps you really should go back and watch the tape I still got it on VHS I'll send it to you!
Do his dunks count for 3 points because hes injured? Hate to break the news to you but those are the breaks of the game. That he was injured explains why he sucked for long stretches of play it doesn't change the reality of it. Theres a significant difference you seem to not understand.

Put it this way, if Kobe were healthy, do you think he plays better? No ****, which of the 2 outcomes would you say helps his legacy more? The answers are obvious, the reasons they are obvious is the exact reason we make these distinctions. Context matters.

savvy1803
07-25-2016, 08:40 PM
What is this so-called agenda Straw boy , i need another good laugh ?

Chronz
07-25-2016, 08:49 PM
What is this so-called agenda Straw boy , i need another good laugh ?
You are no fan of Wilt Chamberlain.

savvy1803
07-25-2016, 09:09 PM
You are no fan of Wilt Chamberlain.

Already on the record stating that Wilt was my favorite player ... no debate there , but you were going to point out my so-called agenda ... remember agenda Straw boy try to stay focused and lets get to the rat killing ... no hiding behind stats on this one ... if you need to go to your safe place before you answer feel free , either way feel free to tell us this agenda .

Bostonjorge
07-25-2016, 09:33 PM
The NBA made a list of 60 greatest finals moments and Kobe's 2000 finals performance is on it.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 11:30 PM
Already on the record stating that Wilt was my favorite player ... no debate there , but you were going to point out my so-called agenda ... remember agenda Straw boy try to stay focused and lets get to the rat killing ... no hiding behind stats on this one ... if you need to go to your safe place before you answer feel free , either way feel free to tell us this agenda .
Sure, just as soon as you explain what a strawman implies and how it applies here.

savvy1803
07-26-2016, 02:02 AM
Sure, just as soon as you explain what a strawman implies and how it applies here.

Wrong Straw boy nice try though LMAO , answering a question with a question is the weakest of sauces which seems to be all you have available at this time , so i will try this again .

You meaning you ( The Straw boy ) accused me of having an Agenda , i have asked you twice now to define this so-called Agenda to which you replied with the eloquence of a drunken sailor " You are no fan of Wilt Chamberlain . " , which not only doesn't define it or answer the question but just provides more weak sauce for other members to see and read . Now you are telling people what they think versus what they know to be the truth and that never ends well ... for you that is lol .

Now i hear the 3rd time is the charm so here we go , would you care to define this so-called Agenda you have accused me of having so that all members who are unfortunate enough to have entered this joke of a thread can finally learn your position on this matter , or would you prefer to scurry off into the mist without replying like the last time we engaged in banter ... your choice now Straw boy , i am patient and can do this all day everyday :) !!!!!

FOXHOUND
07-26-2016, 02:46 AM
Why Ron? And yeah he was a spot up shooter, dude was excelling at that role at a pretty high level and Kobe was having an awful series. I do think Kobe was better but I wondered if anyone thought it would be a debate.

Ron was better at him that series in everything but 3 point shooting. He scored very similar and at similar efficiency, only he had a team high 4.8 APG for the series to Rice's 1.7. He played better D, he grabbed more boards despite being a PG and game by game he kind of outplayed him throughout.

You mentioned Rice's performance in game 2 stepping up with his 21 on 7-15/5-6/2-2 with 3 assists, but that same game Harper stepped up with 21 on 8-12/1-2/4-5 with 6 assists.

In game 1, Harper had 12 points (3rd on team) and 5 assists on 4-6/1-2/3-5 while Rice had 3 points on 1-8/0-2/1-2

In game 3, Harper had 14 points (2nd) and 5 steals on 6-14/2-3 while Rice had 7 points on 3-9/1-3

In game 4, Harper had 4 points on 2-6/0-2 while Rice had 11 points (4th) on 3-8/2-3/3-3. Horry had 17 points (3rd) on 6-10/0-2/5-7, so he greatly outdid both that game.

In game 5, Harper had 8 points (3rd) on 3-8/2-4, 5 assists and 5 rebounds while Rice had 11 points (2nd) on 3-8/1-2/4-7 with 2 assists.

In game 6, Harper had 6 points on 3-10/0-2 with 9 assists while Rice had 16 points (3rd) on 5-7/3-3/3-6

Really, the only game that Rice was better than Harper was game 3. Game 6 is moot, but I think they were pretty similar while impacting the game in different ways. Rose killed Rice all series, but that was just the reality of his lack of defense and utter mismatch there.

Either way, neither of the two had close to the impact of Kobe so the question in the thread title is not valid. They were just role players.

thenaj17
07-26-2016, 06:44 AM
Youtube channel is NBAShowtime: https://www.youtube.com/user/sera7ares
Immense library and hes still adding to it.

I thought about the defensive attention argument but I wonder how much of a difference it really makes when the gameplan was to stop Shaq at all costs. Like its hard to shade a perimeter player consistently when you're already loading up on their center, I mean would anyone make the argument that Kobe wouldn't be anywhere near as productive if he didn't have Shaq drawing so much attention? Why would it hold much sway here?

I feel like Shaq absorbed so much of the attention that whatever was left wasn't that significant in this series but I will admit it is in Kobe's advantage.



That's great thanks!! Love watching old footage. There are very limited DVD's in the UK and i've only got a Jordan boxset and a couple Lakers ones.

As for the defensive attention, of course it's concentrated on Shaq. But the 1st people you edge away from are the lesser talents. It's definitely Kobe's worst Finals including 2004 and 2008 despite how much Kobe gets slated for them but i'm not buying that he isn't more valuable.

I just think that saying an outside shooter spreading the floor is more valuable to a series than a number 2, who is also the team's best defensive player and main ball handler, is crazy talk. The responsibility of guarding the opposition number 1 and facilitating the triangle is automatically more valuable before you take into account the stats. Even then with a bum ankle, Kobe's stats are still superior.

Interesting thought but i can't agree with it and can't believe 1/3 of people have voted Rice

McAllen Tx
07-26-2016, 07:06 AM
Yup another straw for the straw man OP , his obsession with Kobe is laughable at this point and don't forget the narrative must be kept up at all cost lol . His poll won't even show the 5 Mensa members who voted for Rice , enjoy the chuckle at this point ... i always do . Oh and by the way Chris Paul needs more help immediately !

I'm not too familiar with the OP but from this thread which is an obvious attempt to besmirch Kobes legacy even after he's retired is laughable.

I think "obsession with Kobe" is a good way to describe the OP. Think about it, who else in the entire world was thinking about Kobes play in the 2000 Finals.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 10:40 AM
I'm not too familiar with the OP but from this thread which is an obvious attempt to besmirch Kobes legacy even after he's retired is laughable.

I think "obsession with Kobe" is a good way to describe the OP. Think about it, who else in the entire world was thinking about Kobes play in the 2000 Finals.

LMFAO, who else in the world was thinking about what Melo could have accomplished in Denver? I made that thread and I dgaf about Melo. What about that time I ranked the most overrated seasons in NBA history and I ranked Tmac at the top, which since you dont know, is my favorite player of all time.

The obsession is with context, the guys who are obsessed with Kobe are the ones who want to give him extra credit for being hurt when what matters is what it took for your team to win, its BECAUSE hes retired that we look back on his career


Ron was better at him that series in everything but 3 point shooting. He scored very similar and at similar efficiency, only he had a team high 4.8 APG for the series to Rice's 1.7. He played better D, he grabbed more boards despite being a PG and game by game he kind of outplayed him throughout.

You mentioned Rice's performance in game 2 stepping up with his 21 on 7-15/5-6/2-2 with 3 assists, but that same game Harper stepped up with 21 on 8-12/1-2/4-5 with 6 assists.

In game 1, Harper had 12 points (3rd on team) and 5 assists on 4-6/1-2/3-5 while Rice had 3 points on 1-8/0-2/1-2

In game 3, Harper had 14 points (2nd) and 5 steals on 6-14/2-3 while Rice had 7 points on 3-9/1-3

In game 4, Harper had 4 points on 2-6/0-2 while Rice had 11 points (4th) on 3-8/2-3/3-3. Horry had 17 points (3rd) on 6-10/0-2/5-7, so he greatly outdid both that game.

In game 5, Harper had 8 points (3rd) on 3-8/2-4, 5 assists and 5 rebounds while Rice had 11 points (2nd) on 3-8/1-2/4-7 with 2 assists.

In game 6, Harper had 6 points on 3-10/0-2 with 9 assists while Rice had 16 points (3rd) on 5-7/3-3/3-6

Really, the only game that Rice was better than Harper was game 3. Game 6 is moot, but I think they were pretty similar while impacting the game in different ways. Rose killed Rice all series, but that was just the reality of his lack of defense and utter mismatch there.
Thats a damn fine argument. I honestly dont remember how he scored, instead of watching the highlights I should've checked the game footage but that would've taken too long. Rather have someone like you present a case and give me something to zero in on. You're right tho, Harper was more productive than Rice and he was probably a much better defender.


Either way, neither of the two had close to the impact of Kobe so the question in the thread title is not valid. They were just role players.

I disagree, Kobe played so below his standards that it opens up the possibility. Being "just role players" isn't something I respect because I've been watching the game too long to ignore the fact that role players have in fact impacted the game at a level beyond their higher profile teammates. I gave Shane Battier vs Tmac (I think it was the year they hired Adelman) as an example but you could easily point to a guy like Iggy over Curry or Cornbread winning it over Larry Bird.

Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 10:50 AM
Can you make a thread about how Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in 2011 to the extent that Lebron actually cost his team a championship? Let's debate how Terry proved to be more valuable, especially during the 4th quarter, to his team than Lebron did.

I mean, since we're taking random shots at the greatest players ever and comparing them to past their prime all stars....

YAALREADYKNO
07-26-2016, 11:34 AM
Another thread of Kobe getting downplayed???

Chronz
07-26-2016, 11:45 AM
Can you make a thread about how Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in 2011 to the extent that Lebron actually cost his team a championship? Let's debate how Terry proved to be more valuable, especially during the 4th quarter, to his team than Lebron did.

I mean, since we're taking random shots at the greatest players ever and comparing them to past their prime all stars....
Because they were on separate teams and in this one the Lakers won despite Kobe playing worse than even Bron did in that Finals. Thats pretty crazy IMO, goes to show just how much of a team game this is.

And Jason Terry was fire that series, I actually think he, Tyson and Dirk would be a better comparison for most valuable player of the series. Now thats a good thread and you got me thinking but I think given the fact that Dirk still played at a star level whereas Kobe wasn't even at an All-Star level for the majority of these Finals (when he was able to play at all) will get people to vote for him unanimously. With this comparison its at least between guys we knew WERENT the best players of their series.


Wrong Straw boy nice try though LMAO , answering a question with a question is the weakest of sauces which seems to be all you have available at this time , so i will try this again .
You can try as often as you want but if you go back and actually read my posts, you will see that I called you out on not knowing what the expression meant from the moment you used it.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 11:45 AM
Another thread of Kobe getting downplayed???

In what way?

savvy1803
07-26-2016, 12:44 PM
I'm not too familiar with the OP but from this thread which is an obvious attempt to besmirch Kobes legacy even after he's retired is laughable.

I think "obsession with Kobe" is a good way to describe the OP. Think about it, who else in the entire world was thinking about Kobes play in the 2000 Finals.

Bingo !

savvy1803
07-26-2016, 12:47 PM
Can you make a thread about how Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in 2011 to the extent that Lebron actually cost his team a championship? Let's debate how Terry proved to be more valuable, especially during the 4th quarter, to his team than Lebron did.

I mean, since we're taking random shots at the greatest players ever and comparing them to past their prime all stars....

But but but ... it doesn't fit the narrative ... it's all about context LMAO .

savvy1803
07-26-2016, 01:11 PM
I will take Straw boy for 200 Alex ... still no answer ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wi8Fv0AJA4cue the music LMAO

FOXHOUND
07-26-2016, 01:59 PM
Thats a damn fine argument. I honestly dont remember how he scored, instead of watching the highlights I should've checked the game footage but that would've taken too long. Rather have someone like you present a case and give me something to zero in on. You're right tho, Harper was more productive than Rice and he was probably a much better defender.

Thanks. From what I remember, it was similar to Rice. A mix of creating by himself and being fed by Shaq and Kobe. He did a lot more playmaking though, obviously as the PG.



I disagree, Kobe played so below his standards that it opens up the possibility. Being "just role players" isn't something I respect because I've been watching the game too long to ignore the fact that role players have in fact impacted the game at a level beyond their higher profile teammates. I gave Shane Battier vs Tmac (I think it was the year they hired Adelman) as an example but you could easily point to a guy like Iggy over Curry or Cornbread winning it over Larry Bird.

I agree that there are some cases, but I don't think this was one of them. When you watch those games, Kobe is just still doing far more than either to make a case for them. If you take out Kobe's game 2, he averaged 19 PPG, 4.2 APG, 5.5 RPG, 1.2 STL, 1.5 BLK and just 1.5 TO in his other 4 games while being their best defender. Those guys just really have nothing on Kobe beyond efficiency.

Personally, I don't think Iggy deserved it over Curry by a long shot, but he had the narrative of defending LeBron on top of his efficient 16 PPG. Maxwell averaged more points than Bird that Finals and was far more efficient, but I have never seen that Finals and would like to to see how he was scoring.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 02:10 PM
So Im speed watching the first quarter of G1 and made some quick notes, I cant believe how I dont even remember it wasn't even Kobe defending Reggie to start the series. Ron Harper was draped all over him and funneling him right into Shaq. Superb defense on one end and then on the other he assisted on like 5 buckets (mostly post feeds to Shaq) and scored a spot up 3 and an off the bounce midrange shot, his kind of post entree passing is a lost art today, he was making some pretty awkward angle passes work and its why he was able to play in the triangle despite not being a great 3pt shooting PG.

Glen Rice hasn't yet been exposed defensively but Im assuming thats coming soon, the help has been pretty good behind him and hes gotten a steal and drawn a charge. Surprisingly enough, its Kobe whos been getting worked. The main reason Phil loves big point guards is because he wants completely flexibility for the perimeter players to track someone in defensive transition. The triangle can leave you vulnerable with regards to transition balance, the guy getting back has to be able to defend 1-3 and stop the ball. So while Harper was designated to stop Reggie and Kobe was put on Mark Jackson, there were plenty of cross matches and thats when you saw the versatility of the trio. But so far, Kobe was the least successful defender, he gets worked by Mark Jackson in this and Jalen scored the only bucket I saw on him thus far.

savvy1803
07-27-2016, 12:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wi8Fv0AJA4

Still crickets from the Strawboy LMAO .

Hawkeye15
07-27-2016, 01:11 PM
Kobe was terrible in the 2000 finals. He was hurt, but anyone who thinks he even contributed as anything more than a negative to that finals squad is wrong.

It just shows how much of a team game it really is. I won't even rope LeBron in here, what is the point?

Tony_Starks
07-27-2016, 01:18 PM
Kobe was terrible in the 2000 finals. He was hurt, but anyone who thinks he even contributed as anything more than a negative to that finals squad is wrong.

It just shows how much of a team game it really is. I won't even rope LeBron in here, what is the point?

I know you're a Kobe hater but to say Kobes contribution was a "negative" when he had the undisputed signature moment of the Finals with Shaq fouled out is a all time low attempt of discrediting....even for you.

But then again you actually still consider his game 7 against Boston a negative even though he grabbed like 16 boards, scored 10 points in the fourth, and assisted to Ron Ron for the go ahead 3.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2016, 01:26 PM
I know you're a Kobe hater but to say Kobes contribution was a "negative" when he had the undisputed signature moment of the Finals with Shaq fouled out is a all time low attempt of discrediting....even for you.

But then again you actually still consider his game 7 against Boston a negative even though he grabbed like 16 boards, scored 10 points in the fourth, and assisted to Ron Ron for the go ahead 3.

You are looking at a single play. For the series, Kobe was not a positive for the Lakers. Ron Harper contributed just as much. Hell it was really Shaq, and then all the role players played positively. Kobe's offensive rating was 96. That means you weren't even scoring a point per possession with him on the floor in that series. And the other team was scoring 116 per 100 possessions. That is called a negative.

I never said he was a negative in that game 7. I am saying his performance didn't warrant him anything special. He and Gasol were pretty much equals as the top dog in that playoff run. Kobe had the name, hence the MVP.

Part of my overlooking of Kobe in 2000, is even if he WERE healthy, the dude was 21, and playing his first long playoff run. You aren't expected to dominate that usually..

Hawkeye15
07-27-2016, 01:27 PM
eh

Tony_Starks
07-27-2016, 02:19 PM
You are looking at a single play. For the series, Kobe was not a positive for the Lakers. Ron Harper contributed just as much. Hell it was really Shaq, and then all the role players played positively. Kobe's offensive rating was 96. That means you weren't even scoring a point per possession with him on the floor in that series. And the other team was scoring 116 per 100 possessions. That is called a negative.

I never said he was a negative in that game 7. I am saying his performance didn't warrant him anything special. He and Gasol were pretty much equals as the top dog in that playoff run. Kobe had the name, hence the MVP.

Part of my overlooking of Kobe in 2000, is even if he WERE healthy, the dude was 21, and playing his first long playoff run. You aren't expected to dominate that usually..

It wasn't a play he took over the entire OT. Was the difference between the series going 2-2 and 3-1. On a bum ankle at that.

That's at maximum pretty legendary at minimum FAR from being a negative for the series.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2016, 02:58 PM
It wasn't a play he took over the entire OT. Was the difference between the series going 2-2 and 3-1. On a bum ankle at that.

That's at maximum pretty legendary at minimum FAR from being a negative for the series.

it still doesn't change his production. It just doesn't. He just wasn't good in his first finals, at 21. I won't hold it against him. 15-4-4 on 37% shooting and meh defense as baseline numbers isn't good. When we dig in deeper, he was hurting his team at points.

Bostonjorge
07-27-2016, 04:23 PM
So Im speed watching the first quarter of G1 and made some quick notes, I cant believe how I dont even remember it wasn't even Kobe defending Reggie to start the series. Ron Harper was draped all over him and funneling him right into Shaq. Superb defense on one end and then on the other he assisted on like 5 buckets (mostly post feeds to Shaq) and scored a spot up 3 and an off the bounce midrange shot, his kind of post entree passing is a lost art today, he was making some pretty awkward angle passes work and its why he was able to play in the triangle despite not being a great 3pt shooting PG.

Glen Rice hasn't yet been exposed defensively but Im assuming thats coming soon, the help has been pretty good behind him and hes gotten a steal and drawn a charge. Surprisingly enough, its Kobe whos been getting worked. The main reason Phil loves big point guards is because he wants completely flexibility for the perimeter players to track someone in defensive transition. The triangle can leave you vulnerable with regards to transition balance, the guy getting back has to be able to defend 1-3 and stop the ball. So while Harper was designated to stop Reggie and Kobe was put on Mark Jackson, there were plenty of cross matches and thats when you saw the versatility of the trio. But so far, Kobe was the least successful defender, he gets worked by Mark Jackson in this and Jalen scored the only bucket I saw on him thus far.

Game 1

Kobe guarded Miller most and almost the whole game. You trying to make it seem like Kobe was guarding mark Jackson the whole game is just laughable. Kobe had a good first quarter scoring also but no mention of that. Kobe defense on Miller forced one of the worst shooting games in finals history. Held him to 7 points. Shaq went off that game for 43 and almost 20 rebounds. Lakers won that game soundly.

Shaq dominated the game
Kobe dominated Miller

Game 2

Kobe got hurt early in the second quarter and never came back that game. Played 9 minutes.

Game 3

Kobe did not play

Game 4

After the lakers lost in game 3 Kobe was back and playing hurt. This game for Kobe was one of the most clutch games for any player ever. Playing hurt Kobe had 5 fouls in the 3rd quarter. This game went to over time and Shaq fouled out. Kobe scored 6 straight and hit the game winning basket.

Kobe hits game winner
Kobes 8 overtime points is second all time

Game 5

Kobe was off this game. Kobe was still hurt and just came off a 47 minute game playing on a hurt ankle.


Game 6

Lakers closed the series out and Kobe had 26 points 10 rebounds 4 assist. Kobe hit 5 straight free throws to close out the game.


Out of the 4 games kobe played not (counting his 9 minutes in game 2) Kobe had one bad game. So how is it that Kobe had a bad series because of one bad game? Like I said before.

The NBA has list of the 60 greatest finals moments in NBA history for the 60th anniversary and kobes clutch play in game 4 is on the list.

Bostonjorge
07-27-2016, 05:03 PM
it still doesn't change his production. It just doesn't. He just wasn't good in his first finals, at 21. I won't hold it against him. 15-4-4 on 37% shooting and meh defense as baseline numbers isn't good. When we dig in deeper, he was hurting his team at points.
Holding Miller to one of the worst shooting games in finals history is meh defense?

Hawkeye15
07-27-2016, 05:09 PM
Holding Miller to one of the worst shooting games in finals history is meh defense?

Miller averaged 24.6 ppg on 55.8% TS, an offensive rating of 116, and a game score of 17.6
Kobe averaged 15.4 ppg on 41.1% TS, and offensive rating of 96, and a game score of 9.7 (Harper equaled him)

For the series, Miller outplayed him badly.

Again, if you Laker fans want to base your opinion on a few moments/quarters, instead of the whole series, go for it.

Kobe was bad in his first finals, for many reasons. Some out of his control. Guess what, injuries happen..

Chronz
07-27-2016, 05:44 PM
Kobe was terrible in the 2000 finals. He was hurt, but anyone who thinks he even contributed as anything more than a negative to that finals squad is wrong.

It just shows how much of a team game it really is. I won't even rope LeBron in here, what is the point?

Chill with this net negative stuff man, no one should be going there.

Chronz
07-27-2016, 05:54 PM
Game 1

Kobe guarded Miller most and almost the whole game. You trying to make it seem like Kobe was guarding mark Jackson the whole game is just laughable. Kobe had a good first quarter scoring also but no mention of that. Kobe defense on Miller forced one of the worst shooting games in finals history. Held him to 7 points. Shaq went off that game for 43 and almost 20 rebounds. Lakers won that game soundly.

Good to see you finally respond to one of my posts but I just got done saying how I only saw 1Q. Harper was the guy assigned to Reggie and Kobe was assigned to Jackson. If you wish Ill do a complete touches count but I was just speed watching this while taking a few notes. But Ill do the entire quarter, complete with links and all and if even then you wont admit you were wrong, I'll officially make you the first person I've ever decided to block for a whole week. After that, you're on my **** list.


PS. Of course I dont mention a healthy Kobe scoring, Im talking about things I didn't remember/expect. Kobe before his ankle injury wasn't surprising me with his scoring ability guy.

Bostonjorge
07-27-2016, 06:24 PM
Miller averaged 24.6 ppg on 55.8% TS, an offensive rating of 116, and a game score of 17.6
Kobe averaged 15.4 ppg on 41.1% TS, and offensive rating of 96, and a game score of 9.7 (Harper equaled him)

For the series, Miller outplayed him badly.

Again, if you Laker fans want to base your opinion on a few moments/quarters, instead of the whole series, go for it.

Kobe was bad in his first finals, for many reasons. Some out of his control. Guess what, injuries happen..

When you go game by game Kobe only had one bad game. Out of 6 games Kobe only played 4. In those 4 games Kobe shot Miller down one game. Left a historic mark in a second game. Then played solid in the deciding game for the title. One bad game out of three does not equal a bad series.

You even try to claim he even hurt the lakers. Didn't have many turnovers and played great defense. No way was Kobe even close to being a liability. Especially after game 4 when the lakers lost and showed even Shaq averaging close to 40 points and 20 rebounds that the lakers needed Kobe to tip the balance.

Tony_Starks
07-27-2016, 09:46 PM
Game 1

Kobe guarded Miller most and almost the whole game. You trying to make it seem like Kobe was guarding mark Jackson the whole game is just laughable. Kobe had a good first quarter scoring also but no mention of that. Kobe defense on Miller forced one of the worst shooting games in finals history. Held him to 7 points. Shaq went off that game for 43 and almost 20 rebounds. Lakers won that game soundly.

Shaq dominated the game
Kobe dominated Miller

Game 2

Kobe got hurt early in the second quarter and never came back that game. Played 9 minutes.

Game 3

Kobe did not play

Game 4

After the lakers lost in game 3 Kobe was back and playing hurt. This game for Kobe was one of the most clutch games for any player ever. Playing hurt Kobe had 5 fouls in the 3rd quarter. This game went to over time and Shaq fouled out. Kobe scored 6 straight and hit the game winning basket.

Kobe hits game winner
Kobes 8 overtime points is second all time

Game 5

Kobe was off this game. Kobe was still hurt and just came off a 47 minute game playing on a hurt ankle.


Game 6

Lakers closed the series out and Kobe had 26 points 10 rebounds 4 assist. Kobe hit 5 straight free throws to close out the game.


Out of the 4 games kobe played not (counting his 9 minutes in game 2) Kobe had one bad game. So how is it that Kobe had a bad series because of one bad game? Like I said before.

The NBA has list of the 60 greatest finals moments in NBA history for the 60th anniversary and kobes clutch play in game 4 is on the list.


Evidently you actually watched that series.

As did I.

It is mind boggling how someone can look at this, coupled with the list that the actual NBA has of great Finals moments, and dispute that Kobe had a legendary performance. I've NEVER seen the need to unnecessarily take jabs at any other great player like they do Kobe.

Ironically hawk is often the ringleader, a person that claims he put the cape on for Lebron becuase of all the unnecessary hate he gets.

This is a perfect example of people putting stats in a vacuum as opposed to what actually happened in context.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 11:10 AM
Evidently you actually watched that series.

As did I.

Then can either of you explain how he got the first quarter of g1 totally wrong? Shouldn't that be the easiest part to verify? Its the first ****ing quarter and the announcers pretty much tell you the gameplan they see. Im still waiting for his answer but if anyone wants, Ill gladly do a touches count.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with this thread, feel free to explain this "context" you think people are missing if you want tho. Glen Rice had a great moment in the NBA Finals too, only his lasted longer. Do define legendary because there is nothing legendary about limping around and struggling for most of a series.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 11:17 AM
Especially after game 4 when the lakers lost and showed even Shaq averaging close to 40 points and 20 rebounds that the lakers needed Kobe to tip the balance.
Wouldn't you expect ANY 2nd All-Star to make a difference? Are you saying this in response to the notion that Kobe hurt the team or are you trying to make the case that Kobe's load is somehow so large that his team not being able to continue winning NBA FINALS games without him is suppose be indicative of something? LOL, can you imagine how much more Kobe would be discredited if he didn't just win a Finals playing so poorly for a #2 standards but was actually carried through even more of the Finals?

Tony_Starks
07-28-2016, 11:25 AM
Then can either of you explain how he got the first quarter of g1 totally wrong? Shouldn't that be the easiest part to verify? Its the first ****ing quarter and the announcers pretty much tell you the gameplan they see. Im still waiting for his answer but if anyone wants, Ill gladly do a touches count.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with this thread, feel free to explain this "context" you think people are missing if you want tho. Glen Rice had a great moment in the NBA Finals too, only his lasted longer. Do define legendary because there is nothing legendary about limping around and struggling for most of a series.


I define 8 crucial points in OT of a pivotal swing game of the series on a bum ankle while still defending and rebounding with the best player on the team fouled out legendary. I define his play to close out game 6 when it counted and seal the chip legendary.

That's legendary.

But hey that's just me.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 11:40 AM
Holding Miller to one of the worst shooting games in finals history is meh defense?
He helped is more fitting I think, it wasn't like when Tayshaun was the designated stopper against a scorer.
How do you split the credit between Ron Harper/Kobe/Glen/Shaw (the guys most likely to match up with him) and the backline defense designed to funnel into Shaq?

Ignoring the help defense part, just how would you split the man2man credit between the players I mentioned? Cuz Harper was most definitely the designated defender in the first Q I saw yesterday. I found this vid(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3J-6SNoBGQ) of Kobes defense on Reggie Miller but in the description he even states theres not much footage because he didn't guard him the whole game, which runs contrary to what you were trying to convey. I've been watching this guys defensive tapes for awhile now, he does a good job of capturing the most significant footage and with so little possessions to show for a 48 minute game, it isn't the best sign.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 11:45 AM
I define 8 crucial points in OT of a pivotal swing game of the series on a bum ankle while still defending and rebounding with the best player on the team fouled out legendary. I define his play to close out game 6 when it counted and seal the chip legendary.

That's legendary.

But hey that's just me.

Does Shaq fouling out really make it much different than Glen Rice having to fill in for Kobe for an entire game as opposed to just a quarter?

I guess you're right cuz its Shaq but OK, so legendary moments, sure, there have been lots of those but a legendary game / finals? Definitely not even even close. Hell, its much more likely that Kobe had one of the worst Finals showing from any secondary star in the past 2 decades much less history.

Bostonjorge
07-28-2016, 12:21 PM
Wouldn't you expect ANY 2nd All-Star to make a difference? Are you saying this in response to the notion that Kobe hurt the team or are you trying to make the case that Kobe's load is somehow so large that his team not being able to continue winning NBA FINALS games without him is suppose be indicative of something? LOL, can you imagine how much more Kobe would be discredited if he didn't just win a Finals playing so poorly for a #2 standards but was actually carried through even more of the Finals?

The rest of that post clearly shows I was saying Kobe far from hurt the team. Kobe was the closer for that team and he closed out NBA final games. If that's not the standard for a number #2 then I guess you can only imagine another #2 who was doing that, that year.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-28-2016, 12:26 PM
Who was more impressive with that second heat run. Ray Allen or D Wade?? /Thread.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

Chronz
07-28-2016, 12:44 PM
The rest of that post clearly shows I was saying Kobe far from hurt the team. Kobe was the closer for that team and he closed out NBA final games. If that's not the standard for a number #2 then I guess you can only imagine another #2 who was doing that, that year.
F no the standard isn't to just play well in the closing minutes, I expect guys to play at a high level well before that moment, its no wonder the Lakers were able to win a game without Kobe if thats all he was expected to do. This same team doesn't win if Kobe doesn't improve to the superstar point in a year, he was expected to have great series not just great moments.

LOL at other #2's doing that, umm hate to break the news to you but there is only 1 champion a year and not every #2 gets the advantage of playing alongside the best player in the game and the best team in the league. Therefore the standards aren't just against his league, but against history. So yeah, if you want to completely ignore history then everyones standards are the same so long as they win right. Yeah, cling to your final moments (even though the Lakers already proved capable of winning a game without them so its obviously not more important than how you play ALL GAME), Ill cling to the entirety of a series.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 12:47 PM
Who was more impressive with that second heat run. Ray Allen or D Wade?? /Thread.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

Umm there were moments in that Finals when the team actually played better without Wade, he was hobbled and the added spacing gave Bron more options. That said, I dont think its as close a comparison because Wade was still posting like 20-5-5 on much better efficiency than Kobe and I dont recall Ray being overly productive but I could be wrong.

Tony_Starks
07-28-2016, 01:04 PM
Does Shaq fouling out really make it much different than Glen Rice having to fill in for Kobe for an entire game as opposed to just a quarter?

I guess you're right cuz its Shaq but OK, so legendary moments, sure, there have been lots of those but a legendary game / finals? Definitely not even even close. Hell, its much more likely that Kobe had one of the worst Finals showing from any secondary star in the past 2 decades much less history.

As an aside what is your response to Kobes performance against Portland in the WCF? Led team in assist steals blocks. Ortng just below Shaq, drtng same as Shaq.

One could easily say that was more impressive against Portland, a team that would've stomped a mud hole in Indiana.

For a 21 year old wet behind the ears dude?THAT should be a thread.

Chronz
07-28-2016, 02:12 PM
As an aside what is your response to Kobes performance against Portland in the WCF? Led team in assist steals blocks. Ortng just below Shaq, drtng same as Shaq.

One could easily say that was more impressive against Portland, a team that would've stomped a mud hole in Indiana.

For a 21 year old wet behind the ears dude?THAT should be a thread.

Make it if you want, its certainly one of the best series a 21 year old has ever had. I'd love to see a comparison but we should do it for each age/stage, from 19 to 23

Tony_Starks
07-28-2016, 02:31 PM
Make it if you want, its certainly one of the best series a 21 year old has ever had. I'd love to see a comparison but we should do it for each age/stage, from 19 to 23

My biased standing in the Laker community prohibits me from creating such a thread.

I agree, best series by a 21 yr old could be a thing. I'm betting Rondo and D Rose would be in that conversation too...

savvy1803
07-31-2016, 10:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YyMsE16b2Y

Chronz
07-31-2016, 12:41 PM
Yo do know its against the rules to embed vids right? I dont care enough to report you but just know, if you do, it wasn't me. We need more Wilt fans around here, even if they dont know what the **** they talking about

Bruno
07-31-2016, 04:26 PM
Yo do know its against the rules to embed vids right? I dont care enough to report you but just know, if you do, it wasn't me. We need more Wilt fans around here, even if they dont know what the **** they talking about

another reason why reddit has blown places like PSD out of the ****ing water. this server can hardly handle over sized sigs, let alone embedded videos. way better than it was years ago but its still cheap in comparison.

imagine what kind of posts we could build if we could embed videos? 3k works stacked with vids, graphs and other add ons. there's a ceiling on how clean the information can be received here, PSD is still very 2000's in that sense. kind of love how **** it is though.

Chronz
07-31-2016, 06:00 PM
another reason why reddit has blown places like PSD out of the ****ing water. this server can hardly handle over sized sigs, let alone embedded videos. way better than it was years ago but its still cheap in comparison.

imagine what kind of posts we could build if we could embed videos? 3k works stacked with vids, graphs and other add ons. there's a ceiling on how clean the information can be received here, PSD is still very 2000's in that sense. kind of love how **** it is though.

Yeah, its kind of how I felt driving around in my 86 Celica. I rode that **** to the point where I had no choice but to upgrade. Hate my newer car, cant wait to trade it in and get an old Supra.

Bruno
07-31-2016, 06:10 PM
Yeah, its kind of how I felt driving around in my 86 Celica. I rode that **** to the point where I had no choice but to upgrade. Hate my newer car, cant wait to trade it in and get an old Supra.

haha, exactly.

i voted Jalen Rose.

savvy1803
08-01-2016, 12:43 PM
Good to see you finally respond to one of my posts but I just got done saying how I only saw 1Q. Harper was the guy assigned to Reggie and Kobe was assigned to Jackson. If you wish Ill do a complete touches count but I was just speed watching this while taking a few notes. But Ill do the entire quarter, complete with links and all and if even then you wont admit you were wrong, I'll officially make you the first person I've ever decided to block for a whole week. After that, you're on my **** list.


PS. Of course I dont mention a healthy Kobe scoring, Im talking about things I didn't remember/expect. Kobe before his ankle injury wasn't surprising me with his scoring ability guy.

The sheer hypocrisy of the Straw boy ... pot meet kettle and still no answer LMAO .

Chronz
08-01-2016, 07:38 PM
The sheer hypocrisy of the Straw boy ... pot meet kettle and still no answer LMAO .

I called you out from the beginning and you ignored the post.

savvy1803
08-01-2016, 09:05 PM
I called you out from the beginning and you ignored the post.

Poor Straw boy , you're not doing well with this so let me help you , you never inferred a question in your original post to me about the Straw man subject ( Let alone call anybody out ) you simply made a blanket statement is all .... here it is for you in quotes so you don't get confused again .

" I don't think you know what a Strawman is . "

Now did you notice there was no question mark present after this statement , it was only after failing to answer my question about my so - called agenda did you ask your question on the Straw man subject , do you get it now Straw boy ? ... my question still stands over your head like the proverbial written guillotine ... as of now it remains unanswered even though i have asked you no less then 3 times , surely you can provide a truthful answer so we may move the discussion forward as i have so much more to discuss with you .

I don't expect to hear a real answer though cause you are after all The Straw boy :D LMAO .

Chronz
08-01-2016, 09:33 PM
So when I call you out for not knowing what a strawman is, you dont even see the challenge? LOL, K

savvy1803
08-02-2016, 01:30 AM
So when I call you out for not knowing what a strawman is, you dont even see the challenge? LOL, K

You answer with yet another question but once again offer no real and truthful answer to my original question about my so - called Agenda you accused me of having , you are exposing yourself one post at a time now and i will continue to provide you the rope to allow you to carry out this self - induced assault on your own character no matter how much you avoid the topic .

Still waiting Straw boy :D lol .

Chronz
08-02-2016, 09:59 AM
You answer with yet another question but once again offer no real and truthful answer to my original question about my so - called Agenda you accused me of having , you are exposing yourself one post at a time now and i will continue to provide you the rope to allow you to carry out this self - induced assault on your own character no matter how much you avoid the topic .

Still waiting Straw boy :D lol .

Ive been waiting since the moment I called you out, prove you know what the words you use mean.

savvy1803
08-02-2016, 04:32 PM
Ive been waiting since the moment I called you out, prove you know what the words you use mean.

Be happy to Straw boy but only after you give a real and honest answer to my original question but we all know you won't do that so we will continue to go round and round until you scrape up the courage to answer ... here's some more rope for you and the avoidance continues LMAO :D .