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View Full Version : KD Puts "Legacy" Talk in Perspective



Tony_Starks
07-21-2016, 10:30 AM
Obviously as fans we're always going to debate "legacy" but I felt from a players perspective he really put it in context. At the end of the day if the numbers are there, the rings are there, and he's made the moves he wanted for him and his fam what can anybody really say? That goes for him, Bron, anybody......
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“I just felt that this is where I should’ve been, where I should be, and I made the decision. And I’ll live with it. Because obviously, by making this decision, like Charles Barkley said, my legacy has dipped, I guess,” Durant told The Vertical after Wednesday’s U.S. Men’s Olympic team practice, with a hint of snark. “I don’t even know what ‘your legacy’ means. I look at legacy and I associate that with family.

“As a basketball player, what I’ve done, when I’m done playing, look at what I did. And ask yourself how you feel about it. The numbers are going to be there. Everything I’ve done, you’re going to see it. No matter if I play well or fall off, it’s your decision to tell me what my legacy is to you. That’s how it is now. Individually, what do you think Michael Jordan’s legacy is about, LeBron James’ legacy is about? That’s an individual, personal thing. I can’t control that.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-kevin-durant-isnt-worried-about-his-legacy-042210602.html

Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 10:58 AM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.

McAllen Tx
07-21-2016, 11:02 AM
If he associates legacy with family then why does he get mad when media, analysts & fans call him out.

Is he planning on moving his family to the bay area? What the hell does family have to do with this?

The fact that he even brings up family makes him look even weaker IMO. A cop out.

If he doesn't care what people say about him why does he keep responding. And then brings up family LMFAO....

BKLYNpigeon
07-21-2016, 11:12 AM
Who give a F--K when Durant is 49 years old.

Tony_Starks
07-21-2016, 11:12 AM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.


What does any of that have to do with his take on legacy?

He's basically saying people are going to say whatever they want about your legacy and the players should just do what they feel.

Tony_Starks
07-21-2016, 11:13 AM
Who give a F--K when Durant is 49 years old.

Basically.

All the rest is chitter chatter...

Oefarmy2005
07-21-2016, 11:15 AM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.

+1

I agree 100%. With everything you said including the last line. I think his move was "weak" as Steve A Smith put it, but if that's what makes him happy, who am I to say that it's wrong. It's worse than what Lebron did, but it's done and if it's what KD wants, I'm fine with that.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 11:30 AM
What does any of that have to do with his take on legacy?

He's basically saying people are going to say whatever they want about your legacy and the players should just do what they feel.

Right. And players say **** all the time I don't agree with. He can feel how he likes. He will be judged by how others feel, so he needs to get used to that.

KD is going to now have haters. Is he mentally tough enough to get through that? Guess we will see.

I simply find it absolutely fascinating that he isn't getting destroyed for this after people turned on LeBron for leaving an actual crappy team to go LEAD a team to finals, being (and needing to be) it's best player.

nycericanguy
07-21-2016, 11:56 AM
KD is kinda getting destroyed though, to me it's not about legacy though, its just these guys wanting things handed to them, wanting titles the easiest way possible, and destroying the competitive balance of the league.

You get the feeling that some of these guys, if possible would like to play on an All star team where they are virtually guaranteed a title every year.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 12:05 PM
lmfao , what a wimp. Yes, a legacy is technically what you hand down to family but with regards to sports, its what people make of your accomplishments. I forgot what coach said this but he basically says hes seen winners who never won a chip and hes seen losers win plenty. I wont say with complete certainty but KD will always be a loser no matter how many rings he cruises to.

Why would you even believe a word that comes out of this hypocrites mouth? Stay in doors KD, someone might just call you a bad name you ****ing mental midget.




Who give a F--K when Durant is 49 years old.
The casuals wont (prolly) but anyone who cares enough about the sport to debate it online is going to hear the context behind his unprecedented cowardice until the end of time. This aint the old days where history fades, the internet preserves everything. Simply put, if you care about the NBA, you wont forget. Im still here debating people who claim Wilt choked in 1970 ffs.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 12:07 PM
KD is kinda getting destroyed though, to me it's not about legacy though, its just these guys wanting things handed to them, wanting titles the easiest way possible, and destroying the competitive balance of the league.

You get the feeling that some of these guys, if possible would like to play on an All star team where they are virtually guaranteed a title every year.

well, the first UFA in modern CBA basketball was Tom Chambers in 1988. In all reality, the old timers who complain about this were never in a league where leaving and making great money was even possible. They used to just force trades....

I really don't care about Durant leaving, I just never got the venomous hate LeBron received when he left in FA, so I find it odd that Durant isn't getting it worse. I suppose people just don't see Durant on the same level as they did LeBron?

Durant can explain what his version of a "legacy" is. That doesn't mean anyone else needs to agree with it. At the end of the day legacy is subjective, everyone has a different view.

Vee-Rex
07-21-2016, 12:07 PM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.

Agree 150% with every letter in this post.

Tony_Starks
07-21-2016, 12:14 PM
Right. And players say **** all the time I don't agree with. He can feel how he likes. He will be judged by how others feel, so he needs to get used to that.

KD is going to now have haters. Is he mentally tough enough to get through that? Guess we will see.

I simply find it absolutely fascinating that he isn't getting destroyed for this after people turned on LeBron for leaving an actual crappy team to go LEAD a team to finals, being (and needing to be) it's best player.

Except he IS getting absolutely destroyed. His move is universally being called "the weakest move in sports" from analyst and legends across the board. His jersey got burned. Adam Silver himself discouraged it. Aside from death threats I'm not sure what else you want people to do? He's been getting killed on tv, message boards and social media all summer 16.

Also you insist on comparing what he did to Lebrons move and reaction, you can't. People didn't just react to Lebron tucking tail and running they reacted to HOW he did it. There's no way you can expect the same reaction, no matter how much you personally don't care about how Lebron went about things.

Lebron himself admits that he made a mistake the way he did it, not Superteaming up, but the manner in which he did it.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 12:15 PM
Right. And players say **** all the time I don't agree with. He can feel how he likes. He will be judged by how others feel, so he needs to get used to that.

KD is going to now have haters. Is he mentally tough enough to get through that? Guess we will see.

I simply find it absolutely fascinating that he isn't getting destroyed for this after people turned on LeBron for leaving an actual crappy team to go LEAD a team to finals, being (and needing to be) it's best player.

I have a feeling KD is getting crucified, at least to a degree that makes him uncomfortable, its why he hid for days after the decision. Now compared to Bron, lol, nobody takes the **** he does nor did he let it effect him to the point where he stops being a ****ing man. Hes taken some punches to his legacy tho, how could he not after such a ***** move?

JasonJohnHorn
07-21-2016, 12:25 PM
Bird got to play with two HOFers in their prime throughout his career, plus guys like DJ and Walton.

Magic got to play with two HOFers in the prime of their careers, plus his GM loaded him up every year and he had guys like Nixon, Cooper, AC Green, Byron Scott, Sam Perkins, ect, ect, ect.

LBJ left Mo Williams to play with Wade and Bosh. And he didn't have the supporting cast of guys like Cooper and Nixon and AC Green to suppliment them. KD has left Westbrook (who thought talented is a glory hound) to play on a team where EVERYBODY WANTS TO SHARE THE BALL.

I see no issue with either move.

I am excited to see a well oiled machine in Golden State next year and watch an historically amazing team tear the league apart, and it will be exciting to see who can stand up to them and give them a run for their money.

You know who stuck it out? George Gervin. Who was AMAZING. And how many people bring up his name as being among the greatest? And how was he rewarded? Traded to another team. The annals of the NBA are littered with guys like Bob Lanier, and Mitch Richmond who stayed faithful to their teams and stuck it out, and sometimes, at the end of their career, like Payton, and Richmond, they get a piece of hardware riding the pine for somebody. I don't fault LBJ or KD for not wanting that.

Not everybody can be like Kobe and Duncan and great drafted by a contender. Jordan was lucky that the Bulls were able to build around him, but had he had the good fortune that Bird and Magic had, he'd have 10 rings.



People need to chill the fawk out about this and sit back and enjoy the show.

YAALREADYKNO
07-21-2016, 12:25 PM
W
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a
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HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 12:33 PM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.
You let fans determine you're outlook? Wowzers!

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Vee-Rex
07-21-2016, 12:36 PM
Right. And players say **** all the time I don't agree with. He can feel how he likes. He will be judged by how others feel, so he needs to get used to that.

KD is going to now have haters. Is he mentally tough enough to get through that? Guess we will see.

I simply find it absolutely fascinating that he isn't getting destroyed for this after people turned on LeBron for leaving an actual crappy team to go LEAD a team to finals, being (and needing to be) it's best player.

Well, if you really look at it... most defenders of Durant are either Warriors fans or people who likely hate LeBron.

It's just that there's far more active Warriors fans now than there were 2 years ago.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 12:36 PM
You let fans determine you're outlook? Wowzers!

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huh?

Jewelz0376
07-21-2016, 12:39 PM
I don't get the people saying Durant isn't getting killed like Lebron.

I don't know what some of you are watching/reading but Durant has been getting destroyed over his decision.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 12:47 PM
huh?
The only issue you have is the fans bashing Lebron. Man up people will have opinions my friend. Don't let the next man's view sway you're opinion.

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Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 12:54 PM
The only issue you have is the fans bashing Lebron. Man up people will have opinions my friend. Don't let the next man's view sway you're opinion.

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Dude, people acted like he committed a crime haha.

Yes, fans sway other fans. I never really liked Kobe. His fans made me despise him. It's natural

When a large group becomes insufferable, it does sway.

IndyRealist
07-21-2016, 12:55 PM
lmfao , what a wimp. Yes, a legacy is technically what you hand down to family but with regards to sports, its what people make of your accomplishments. I forgot what coach said this but he basically says hes seen winners who never won a chip and hes seen losers win plenty. I wont say with complete certainty but KD will always be a loser no matter how many rings he cruises to.

Why would you even believe a word that comes out of this hypocrites mouth? Stay in doors KD, someone might just call you a bad name you ****ing mental midget.




The casuals wont (prolly) but anyone who cares enough about the sport to debate it online is going to hear the context behind his unprecedented cowardice until the end of time. This aint the old days where history fades, the internet preserves everything. Simply put, if you care about the NBA, you wont forget. Im still here debating people who claim Wilt choked in 1970 ffs.

Disagee. People have shorter attention spans now more than ever. He wins one ring and no one will care he went to GS. No one care about the Decision anymore.

GoferKing_
07-21-2016, 01:06 PM
I am excited to see a well oiled machine in Golden State next year and watch an historically amazing team tear the league apart, and it will be exciting to see who can stand up to them and give them a run for their money.

This is going to be such an exciting season... yay...

Chronz
07-21-2016, 01:13 PM
Disagee. People have shorter attention spans now more than ever. He wins one ring and no one will care he went to GS. No one care about the Decision anymore.
He wins one ring and everyone will say what they've been saying from the start, no ****ing ****. You better ****ing win with such a historic core. If blogging were as popular/available in prior eras as they are today, history would remember alot more.

The decision was derided mostly for the spectacle of it all, that aside was always defensible by pointing out the **** he left, the fact that the new roster was shallow, the fact that he and Wade had similar styles of play and was on the decline (while getting knocked in R.1 annually). Also, we saw first hand how he carried a team without Bosh + a hobbled Wade and we saw how the super team label was really over stated. Bron could have joined a number of teams and had an easier time IMO.

So yeah, if Curry and Draymond collide into each other and are out for extended playoff stretches forcing KD to carry the load he ran away from, thus prompting legends to speak so highly about his performance, then yeah, it would go a long way towards mitigating the hate.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 01:33 PM
Dude, people acted like he committed a crime haha.

Yes, fans sway other fans. I never really liked Kobe. His fans made me despise him. It's natural

When a large group becomes insufferable, it does sway.
So had people bashed kobe you'd love him and have him ranked higher? I really love reading you're post and value your opinion. With that being said, that's a weak reason bro.

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Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 01:49 PM
So had people bashed kobe you'd love him and have him ranked higher? I really love reading you're post and value your opinion. With that being said, that's a weak reason bro.

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nah, I hated Kobe right out of the gate. Something about him man, I don't know. When he waived Malone off in the ASG, that pissed me off haha.

I mean, we can hate a player for any reason we want. But we also need to try and not let that skew how we actually perceive their impact to the game. I would never leave Kobe off my all time list because I can't stand him.

Hell I didn't even care about LeBron until he started getting A-Rod hate. Then I pulled for him so everyone could shut up. After he won, I stopped caring if he won or lost.

For me, Wolves or die. That is the only team I really care about.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 01:58 PM
Respect

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aman_13
07-21-2016, 02:31 PM
[B]The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. [/kB] He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.

That's my only issue as well.

JordansBulls
07-21-2016, 03:42 PM
I like pure guys like this

Bostonjorge
07-21-2016, 04:08 PM
Like I said Durant and James are cut from the same cloth. James opened Pandora's box and Durant won't be the last one to make this move.

Just like James signing 2 year deals with player option on second is going to be the norm for these big time players. Have to keep that door open to form that next super team.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 04:17 PM
Like I said Durant and James are cut from the same cloth. James opened Pandora's box and Durant won't be the last one to make this move.

Just like James signing 2 year deals with player option on second is going to be the norm for these big time players. Have to keep that door open to form that next super team.

If you dont understand the financial prerogatives behind signing early opt outs during this phase of the CBA then nobody cares what cloth you're examining. As early as next year (as late as the year thereafter depending on if KD cares about his full Bird rights) these guys are locking in that monster money before the cap declines abit as expected.

James is the closest comparison in scope and even he pales in comparison. What Bron did is more like what KG did to form the Boston Big-3. Create a new power after years of toiling away with shoddy talent alongside you to take down the powers already at large. He didn't simply dick ride a historic core.

IndyRealist
07-21-2016, 04:33 PM
If you dont understand the financial prerogatives behind signing early opt outs during this phase of the CBA then nobody cares what cloth you're examining. As early as next year (as late as the year thereafter depending on if KD cares about his full Bird rights) these guys are locking in that monster money before the cap declines abit as expected.

James is the closest comparison in scope and even he pales in comparison. What Bron did is more like what KG did to form the Boston Big-3. Create a new power after years of toiling away with shoddy talent alongside you to take down the powers already at large. He didn't simply dick ride a historic core.

Prior to this postseason, that's EXACTLY how people thought of OKC, that they were two players and a bunch of garbage, and that letting Harden go cost them any shot ever at a ring. If OKC had been knocked out in the first or second round, everyone would be saying Durant was justified in leaving. So all of this venom is based on ONE playoff series nearly beating a team who's star was hobbled, and who didn't end up the champs.

AND by all accounts KD was prepared to stay if Westbrook verbally committed to stay, which he wouldn't. So what we're really saying is Durant should have spent ONE MORE YEAR in Oklahoma before leaving. That's it. That team was done the moment Westbrook said he's out.

If you're mad Golden State is going to steamroll the league, just say so. Don't pretend it's some moral code Durant violated.

Tony_Starks
07-21-2016, 04:35 PM
Winning cures. A lot! If he wins it all when we look back nobody is going to care how it happened, he'll just be champion. Fans will get over it and the hall of fame won't care.

It's not like he's a aging role player, if they win it all it will be because he had a major hand in it.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 04:36 PM
I like pure guys like this
Like what?

Did you hear about them kids booing KD's name? Jae Bae Crowder cosigned

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-21-2016, 04:40 PM
Durant is a big ***** plain and simple. He has zero balls. That will be his legacy.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 04:45 PM
Winning cures. A lot! If he wins it all when we look back nobody is going to care how it happened, he'll just be champion. Fans will get over it and the hall of fame won't care.

It's not like he's a aging role player, if they win it all it will be because he had a major hand in it.

for most fans, you are exactly right.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 04:46 PM
He said like KG woooooooowzers!!! KG didn't even wanna go! He had to be convinced to forgo his no trade clause. Try again bub.

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Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 04:49 PM
He said like KG woooooooowzers!!! KG didn't even wanna go! He had to be convinced to forgo his no trade clause. Try again bub.

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He initially did, but that is because KG is loyal to a fault. Once he really thought it over, he did go back to the Wolves and they basically traded him to the team of his choice. At least they realized it, and just said, "hey dude, you are still young enough to be a star contributor, where can we send you that makes sense for us too?"

Chronz
07-21-2016, 04:50 PM
Prior to this postseason, that's EXACTLY how people thought of OKC, that they were two players and a bunch of garbage, and that letting Harden go cost them any shot ever at a ring. If OKC had been knocked out in the first or second round, everyone would be saying Durant was justified in leaving. So all of this venom is based on ONE playoff series nearly beating a team who's star was hobbled, and who didn't end up the champs.
Having 2 players of that magnitude is kind of a big deal. I disagree that its how they were perceived, different analysts pegged them as a power. From intellectuals like Zach Lowe talking about how having a trio as good as theirs (not just 2) flanked by productive role players makes them a real threat to idiots like Charles Barkley saying they have the most talent of anyone in the league. Them losing Harden prevented them from being a dynasty but definitely not heavy contenders, boo hoo. So you only got to play alongside 1 other superstar and other promising pieces. So you run to a team that has already achieved historic feats without you.
All that said, I dont see why we should ignore the playoffs to begin with. Of course hes getting venom from those performances, its not the only reason.


AND by all accounts KD was prepared to stay if Westbrook verbally committed to stay, which he wouldn't. So what we're really saying is Durant should have spent ONE MORE YEAR in Oklahoma before leaving. That's it. That team was done the moment Westbrook said he's out.

Nah, Im OK with him going anywhere but the 2 Finalists given what GS accomplished in the past 2 years. I really think GS would have won had DG not gotten suspended, perhaps not but it wouldn't change the fact that they were a whisker away with their best players underperforming.
I honestly havent paid attention to OKC's side but Ill get back to you on this one but yeah, pretty much everyone expected him to give it another year given how close they were.


If you're mad Golden State is going to steamroll the league, just say so. Don't pretend it's some moral code Durant violated.

I already locked in my bets bro, Ive hidden nothing from PSD the past few weeks. Of course its because they are going to crush it, thats the moral code KD violated in my book. Its an unprecedented defection/pussification. The likes of which you would expect from someone who hides in doors playing video games to escape criticism. This context will not be lost when he wins those rings unless the events I gave transpire. Someones legacy is going to suffer, thats the entire point of the union isn't it? Individual sacrifice for TEAM glory? Why would anyone prop up KD by pointing to his wins with a team that was already winning without you?

I get that you dont subscribe to my way of thinking on some if not everything above, but you have to agree that not all rings are created equal. Brons single ring with the Cavs outweigh any with the HEAT. I'd argue he did more for his legacy this year than the 4 Finals run in Miami.

Bostonjorge
07-21-2016, 04:50 PM
If you dont understand the financial prerogatives behind signing early opt outs during this phase of the CBA then nobody cares what cloth you're examining. As early as next year (as late as the year thereafter depending on if KD cares about his full Bird rights) these guys are locking in that monster money before the cap declines abit as expected.

James is the closest comparison in scope and even he pales in comparison. What Bron did is more like what KG did to form the Boston Big-3. Create a new power after years of toiling away with shoddy talent alongside you to take down the powers already at large. He didn't simply dick ride a historic core.

What James did is nothing close to what KG was forced to do. KG didn't want to leave Minny all the way up to his press conference in Boston. James move will always be compared to Durants move. James formed the most talented team in the league in the least talented conference in any era. I'm not going to forget or start taking the Miami rings seriously now because of Durant. James showed the easiest road and now Durat is on it.

I know James would sign these one year deals to get the super max but their is more to it. James wanted to keep the door open to win another ring if he failed in Cleveland. I'm not so sure he's done forming these super teams. Next summer we will see if James signs long term in Cleveland.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 05:14 PM
What James did is nothing close to what KG was forced to do. KG didn't want to leave Minny all the way up to his press conference in Boston. James move will always be compared to Durants move. James formed the most talented team in the league in the least talented conference in any era. I'm not going to forget or start taking the Miami rings seriously now because of Durant. James showed the easiest road and now Durat is on it.

I know James would sign these one year deals to get the super max but their is more to it. James wanted to keep the door open to win another ring if he failed in Cleveland. I'm not so sure he's done forming these super teams. Next summer we will see if James signs long term in Cleveland.

false. I just addressed that a few posts up. Initially his to a fault loyalty (he was part of the reason we kept signing our average players to extensions) made him rebuff the FO. But then he got on board with management, and helped pick his destination.

Not the same as leaving in Free Agency, but for trading purposes, most times you don't get to pick your team.

FlashBolt
07-21-2016, 05:28 PM
What James did is nothing close to what KG was forced to do. KG didn't want to leave Minny all the way up to his press conference in Boston. James move will always be compared to Durants move. James formed the most talented team in the league in the least talented conference in any era. I'm not going to forget or start taking the Miami rings seriously now because of Durant. James showed the easiest road and now Durat is on it.

I know James would sign these one year deals to get the super max but their is more to it. James wanted to keep the door open to win another ring if he failed in Cleveland. I'm not so sure he's done forming these super teams. Next summer we will see if James signs long term in Cleveland.

And James has won a ring for a city/state that hasn't won a thing the past 52 years. I'm pretty sure he has the right to do what he wants with those one-year deals. Kevin Durant hasn't done a thing and he's had the tools to win the ring for many years now. I don't see how you even equate these two things. Andre Iguodala just said OKC was the best team. What are you talking about "easiest" road?

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 05:45 PM
He initially did, but that is because KG is loyal to a fault. Once he really thought it over, he did go back to the Wolves and they basically traded him to the team of his choice. At least they realized it, and just said, "hey dude, you are still young enough to be a star contributor, where can we send you that makes sense for us too?"
Still diffrent circumstances. Bron and his friends PLANED to team up. Did KG call Ray and Paul? I think not. You're reaching so hard I just learned a new stretch. I'll make sure to utilize it whenever I convince myself to work out.

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Hawkeye15
07-21-2016, 05:47 PM
Still diffrent circumstances. Bron and his friends PLANED to team up. Did KG call Ray and Paul? I think not. You're reaching so hard I just learned a new stretch. I'll make sure to utilize it whenever I convince myself to work out.

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they are absolutely different. I was clarifying that KG did eventually get onboard and assist on where he went.

Careful doing those squat thrusts!

IndyRealist
07-21-2016, 05:48 PM
Having 2 players of that magnitude is kind of a big deal. I disagree that its how they were perceived, different analysts pegged them as a power. From intellectuals like Zach Lowe talking about how having a trio as good as theirs (not just 2) flanked by productive role players makes them a real threat to idiots like Charles Barkley saying they have the most talent of anyone in the league. Them losing Harden prevented them from being a dynasty but definitely not heavy contenders, boo hoo. So you only got to play alongside 1 other superstar and other promising pieces. So you run to a team that has already achieved historic feats without you.
All that said, I dont see why we should ignore the playoffs to begin with. Of course hes getting venom from those performances, its not the only reason.


Nah, Im OK with him going anywhere but the 2 Finalists given what GS accomplished in the past 2 years. I really think GS would have won had DG not gotten suspended, perhaps not but it wouldn't change the fact that they were a whisker away with their best players underperforming.
I honestly havent paid attention to OKC's side but Ill get back to you on this one but yeah, pretty much everyone expected him to give it another year given how close they were.


I already locked in my bets bro, Ive hidden nothing from PSD the past few weeks. Of course its because they are going to crush it, thats the moral code KD violated in my book. Its an unprecedented defection/pussification. The likes of which you would expect from someone who hides in doors playing video games to escape criticism. This context will not be lost when he wins those rings unless the events I gave transpire. Someones legacy is going to suffer, thats the entire point of the union isn't it? Individual sacrifice for TEAM glory? Why would anyone prop up KD by pointing to his wins with a team that was already winning without you?

I get that you dont subscribe to my way of thinking on some if not everything above, but you have to agree that not all rings are created equal. Brons single ring with the Cavs outweigh any with the HEAT. I'd argue he did more for his legacy this year than the 4 Finals run in Miami.

Let's assume that Durant had the choice to either stay in OKC for one more year or leave, because that's how it seemed Westbrook was leaning. So he could delay leaving for a year, or leave now and make it a clean break. He chose to leave now, which isn't that much different than leaving a year from now. He was still leaving regardless.

So where was he supposed to go? Does he go to New York, collect only slightly more money (for him, compared to endorsements), and get 45-50 wins and a 2nd round exit? Go to Dallas and wait for Dirk to retire so they can actually rebuild the team? Go to the Spurs and get the EXACT same ragging he's getting now? Or does he take slightly less money and go where he has the best chance of winning a ring?

If Kevin Durant is evil for going to Golden State, exactly where should he have gone then? The 1+1 in OKC, which is what I thought was certain to happen, was predicated on waiting to see what Westbrook would do. Except Durant already knows what Westbrook is going to do. No one in the same position would have chosen differently.

Bostonjorge
07-21-2016, 06:14 PM
false. I just addressed that a few posts up. Initially his to a fault loyalty (he was part of the reason we kept signing our average players to extensions) made him rebuff the FO. But then he got on board with management, and helped pick his destination.

Not the same as leaving in Free Agency, but for trading purposes, most times you don't get to pick your team.

Boston sent a trade to Minny and they accepted. Kg then turned around and shot it down, said he would not waive his no trade clause. Reports came out that LA is the only team he would waive his no trade clause for. Boston then landed Allen in a trade for the 5th pick and young pieces. Boston then sent out another offer that minny wanted. Kevin Mchale sat with KG and got him to waive the trade clause. KG never once said he wanted to go to Boston he was swayed that way. Took a lot to get him to dress up in Green. It's was the most honorable way a player has ever left a team.

Kush McDaniels
07-21-2016, 06:28 PM
KD's legacy should take a huge hit for what he did this summer. The only way he gets credit is if there's weird scenarios where his all NBA teammates go down with huge injuries, and KD puts the team on his back and wins the chip. I don't care if they win 72 games next year - they should be that good. I don't care if they win the next 4 chips because they should. They're that good, and they're only that good bc KD made the move of the world's biggest loser.

KD is still a p---y in my eyes, and the only way he gets any sort of a pass is if weird/unlikely scenarios occur during his time with the GSW's and he plays out of his mind for an extended period of time.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 06:29 PM
Let's assume that Durant had the choice to either stay in OKC for one more year or leave, because that's how it seemed Westbrook was leaning. So he could delay leaving for a year, or leave now and make it a clean break. He chose to leave now, which isn't that much different than leaving a year from now. He was still leaving regardless.

So where was he supposed to go? Does he go to New York, collect only slightly more money (for him, compared to endorsements), and get 45-50 wins and a 2nd round exit? Go to Dallas and wait for Dirk to retire so they can actually rebuild the team? Go to the Spurs and get the EXACT same ragging he's getting now? Or does he take slightly less money and go where he has the best chance of winning a ring?

If Kevin Durant is evil for going to Golden State, exactly where should he have gone then? The 1+1 in OKC, which is what I thought was certain to happen, was predicated on waiting to see what Westbrook would do. Except Durant already knows what Westbrook is going to do. No one in the same position would have chosen differently.

Its a shame that everything he wanted in life just so happened to be available on the most stacked roster ever assembled. Like I would respect him more if he just wanted to live in GS with all its advantageous outside the roster but I honestly dont believe hes choosing GS if they aren't a contender.

Bron-Bosh had to take paycuts to unite, Wade took another on top just to resign his buddy Haslem. Part of the reason KD is getting the flack because hes going to get his cake, eat it, **** it out and have Zaza wipe his ***. Maybe alot of people are jealous but the only thing I would care about is competitive desire. I disagree that everyone would fold the way KD has, my favorite player had the choice to join 1 of 2 Texas teams so the locale is largely irrelevant. One was a contender that had already won, the other missed the playoffs but sported a promising big man. He chose to carve his own path many others have done something similar.

So yes I would do the 1+1 deal in OKC and just survey the landscape a mere year later. Its not like hes toiling away on a mediocre club, he gets the chance to bring them a title and then gets a litany of options with the cap increasing even more. Like many of the clubs were using this year to set the stage for his true free agency next year. And maybe that will still be the case, we'll see but the options were there.

Boston would've been glorious man, historic franchise and you play in the East with a squad that has plenty of intrigue if they add your talent. We could've had so many more contenders this year IMO.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-21-2016, 06:29 PM
Boston sent a trade to Minny and they accepted. Kg then turned around and shot it down, said he would not waive his no trade clause. Reports came out that LA is the only team he would waive his no trade clause for. Boston then landed Allen in a trade for the 5th pick and young pieces. Boston then sent out another offer that minny wanted. Kevin Mchale sat with KG and got him to waive the trade clause. KG never once said he wanted to go to Boston he was swayed that way. Took a lot to get him to dress up in Green. It's was the most honorable way a player has ever left a team.
This.

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Saddletramp
07-21-2016, 06:29 PM
Still diffrent circumstances. Bron and his friends PLANED to team up. Did KG call Ray and Paul? I think not. You're reaching so hard I just learned a new stretch. I'll make sure to utilize it whenever I convince myself to work out.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

Sounds like you're the one reaching so hard. KG ultimately signed off on it because he wanted to win. He couldn't do that in Minny. Same thing with James in Cleveland. Just because one guy kept his options open to where he could go (and talked it over with friends) and the other guy wouldn't get talked into leaving until a better team was formed (when Ray got dealt there) doesn't mean that the situations are different.

It boils down to: I can't win with my ****** front office so I'm going somewhere where I can win. The team up talk, the free agency/trade difference, etc is just schematics.


What Durant did was leave a great team for a record setting/title favored team without him. That's the one that doesn't equate.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 06:44 PM
Boston sent a trade to Minny and they accepted. Kg then turned around and shot it down, said he would not waive his no trade clause. Reports came out that LA is the only team he would waive his no trade clause for. Boston then landed Allen in a trade for the 5th pick and young pieces. Boston then sent out another offer that minny wanted. Kevin Mchale sat with KG and got him to waive the trade clause. KG never once said he wanted to go to Boston he was swayed that way. Took a lot to get him to dress up in Green. It's was the most honorable way a player has ever left a team.

False, LA was the one team he steadfastly refused to work with. He thought it was a circus with Kobe's trade demands. Boston was competing vs Phoenix and maybe one other team but it wasn't LA.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 06:47 PM
Still diffrent circumstances. Bron and his friends PLANED to team up. Did KG call Ray and Paul? I think not. You're reaching so hard I just learned a new stretch. I'll make sure to utilize it whenever I convince myself to work out.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

So you think its MORE admirable to not honor your contract and force a trade? He still got to choose Boston once they landed the pieces that appeased him.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 07:10 PM
If you think Durant got similar to close hate that lebron did you are insane and could easily go back and look at some of the threads then... Not to mention media and so on and this is far far worse.... I do agree with what vex said that the majority of people defending durant are warrior fans and lebron haters.... All lebron had at the time was miami fans and they at the time didnt have a nation of band wagon jumpers like the warriors now do. Not disrespecting real fans either... What I mean by that is the heat didnt have a nation wide following like the warriors have had the past 2 seasons so when lebron went to miami he literally only had heat fans defending him.

If the warriors win the next 2 rings i can tell you the majority will care and wont have durant anywhere close to a top 15 player all time because of this decision.... I dont care where Durant goes I just find this entire thing humerous with how much worse it actually is and how people on this site burn lebron but now are on THE DURANT CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS YADA YADA YADA. Its not hard to be objective except on this site for some odd reason lol.

More-Than-Most
07-21-2016, 07:12 PM
Obviously as fans we're always going to debate "legacy" but I felt from a players perspective he really put it in context. At the end of the day if the numbers are there, the rings are there, and he's made the moves he wanted for him and his fam what can anybody really say? That goes for him, Bron, anybody......
-----------------

“I just felt that this is where I should’ve been, where I should be, and I made the decision. And I’ll live with it. Because obviously, by making this decision, like Charles Barkley said, my legacy has dipped, I guess,” Durant told The Vertical after Wednesday’s U.S. Men’s Olympic team practice, with a hint of snark. “I don’t even know what ‘your legacy’ means. I look at legacy and I associate that with family.

“As a basketball player, what I’ve done, when I’m done playing, look at what I did. And ask yourself how you feel about it. The numbers are going to be there. Everything I’ve done, you’re going to see it. No matter if I play well or fall off, it’s your decision to tell me what my legacy is to you. That’s how it is now. Individually, what do you think Michael Jordan’s legacy is about, LeBron James’ legacy is about? That’s an individual, personal thing. I can’t control that.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-kevin-durant-isnt-worried-about-his-legacy-042210602.html


I like pure guys like this


Boston sent a trade to Minny and they accepted. Kg then turned around and shot it down, said he would not waive his no trade clause. Reports came out that LA is the only team he would waive his no trade clause for. Boston then landed Allen in a trade for the 5th pick and young pieces. Boston then sent out another offer that minny wanted. Kevin Mchale sat with KG and got him to waive the trade clause. KG never once said he wanted to go to Boston he was swayed that way. Took a lot to get him to dress up in Green. It's was the most honorable way a player has ever left a team.

Lol you 3 seriously should have a lawyer on call because if lebron ever accidentally dies and or goes missing I am fairly certain you 3 will be the lead suspects.

IndyRealist
07-21-2016, 07:44 PM
Its a shame that everything he wanted in life just so happened to be available on the most stacked roster ever assembled. Like I would respect him more if he just wanted to live in GS with all its advantageous outside the roster but I honestly dont believe hes choosing GS if they aren't a contender.

Bron-Bosh had to take paycuts to unite, Wade took another on top just to resign his buddy Haslem. Part of the reason KD is getting the flack because hes going to get his cake, eat it, **** it out and have Zaza wipe his ***. Maybe alot of people are jealous but the only thing I would care about is competitive desire. I disagree that everyone would fold the way KD has, my favorite player had the choice to join 1 of 2 Texas teams so the locale is largely irrelevant. One was a contender that had already won, the other missed the playoffs but sported a promising big man. He chose to carve his own path many others have done something similar.

So yes I would do the 1+1 deal in OKC and just survey the landscape a mere year later. Its not like hes toiling away on a mediocre club, he gets the chance to bring them a title and then gets a litany of options with the cap increasing even more. Like many of the clubs were using this year to set the stage for his true free agency next year. And maybe that will still be the case, we'll see but the options were there.

Boston would've been glorious man, historic franchise and you play in the East with a squad that has plenty of intrigue if they add your talent. We could've had so many more contenders this year IMO.

GS bent over backwards and turned over half of their rotation to get him there. I guess I just don't see the reason to hate a guy for going to the place where he had the best chance to win. Yes, he could have gone to Boston. But what would have been the incentive for him to a worse team for essentially the same money? I don't see people putting them in his shoes, tbh. Everyone looks at it from a perspective of a fan, not the guy making the decision.

Chronz
07-21-2016, 08:06 PM
GS bent over backwards and turned over half of their rotation to get him there. I guess I just don't see the reason to hate a guy for going to the place where he had the best chance to win. Yes, he could have gone to Boston. But what would have been the incentive for him to a worse team for essentially the same money? I don't see people putting them in his shoes, tbh. Everyone looks at it from a perspective of a fan, not the guy making the decision.

Yeah, with the knowledge that they could replace most of those fringe contributors with vets who will take paycuts to play on such a stacked team. Which wound up happening with Zaza and West. Any way you slice it, KD has a greater impact than any combination of peripheral pieces.

The incentive to go to a worse team is to create your own power and not get this sort of backlash. I mean, its not like everyone who prioritizes winning signs with the absolute best teams, I already gave you an example of someone who didn't so trust me, Im putting myself in KD's shoes. Im just of different character I suppose.

Like the Bae Crowder story just came out today, the entire organization showed the blueprint on how they beat Cleveland and the Warriors to entice him. In the words of Bae himself, "That's what made me mad. We (expletive) told him everything we do to beat these guys, and we beat them, and he went and joined them. I mean, that's part of the process, but I did not think he would go to those two teams".

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/jae-crowder-celtics-pitch-showed-kevin-durant-everything-we-had-on-warriors-and-he-went-and-joined-them-418611.html


Theres like an unwritten code for the games elite, you want to build a contender not just hop onto the team with the most talent and breaks records without you. Wheres the challenge in that?

I have a feeling more and more of these stories are going to come out. You're going to have the side that hates him for it and the side that doesn't care, what I dont think we will see is people saying he did the best thing for his legacy. And thats why you go to Boston or at least wait another year.


Should anyone who values winning just sign with Cleveland and GS? Some players value the context of winning. Id rather be a winner than a champion but thats just me.

IndyRealist
07-21-2016, 08:19 PM
Yeah, with the knowledge that they could replace most of those fringe contributors with vets who will take paycuts to play on such a stacked team. Which wound up happening with Zaza and West. Any way you slice it, KD has a greater impact than any combination of peripheral pieces.

The incentive to go to a worse team is to create your own power and not get this sort of backlash. I mean, its not like everyone who prioritizes winning signs with the absolute best teams, I already gave you an example of someone who didn't so trust me, Im putting myself in KD's shoes. Im just of different character I suppose.

Like the Bae Crowder story just came out today, the entire organization showed the blueprint on how they beat Cleveland and the Warriors to entice him. In the words of Bae himself, "That's what made me mad. We (expletive) told him everything we do to beat these guys, and we beat them, and he went and joined them. I mean, that's part of the process, but I did not think he would go to those two teams".

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/jae-crowder-celtics-pitch-showed-kevin-durant-everything-we-had-on-warriors-and-he-went-and-joined-them-418611.html


Theres like an unwritten code for the games elite, you want to build a contender not just hop onto the team with the most talent and breaks records without you. Wheres the challenge in that?

I have a feeling more and more of these stories are going to come out. You're going to have the side that hates him for it and the side that doesn't care, what I dont think we will see is people saying he did the best thing for his legacy. And thats why you go to Boston or at least wait another year.


Should anyone who values winning just sign with Cleveland and GS? Some players value the context of winning. Id rather be a winner than a champion but thats just me.

Sorry but these are the exact same things we heard about Lebron and the Decision. Lebron has rings and no one cares anymore. They stopped caring before he went back and won one in Cleveland. :shrug:

McAllen Tx
07-21-2016, 10:57 PM
Didnt have to be Boston. Noone would've said anything negative about him of he would've joined the Clippers.

FlashBolt
07-22-2016, 01:07 AM
Sorry but these are the exact same things we heard about Lebron and the Decision. Lebron has rings and no one cares anymore. They stopped caring before he went back and won one in Cleveland. :shrug:

You're not comparing two things of the same magnitude.. Yes, LeBron won rings but it wasn't with a team like the Warriors had and for sure, LeBron absolutely EARNED those rings. Durant wouldn't be earning much if this thing goes out as planned. Let's not act like the difficulty in winning the rings don't matter. People respect greatness when rings are won and at the end of the day, it remains to be seen if Durant can achieve that without the help of the Warriors. They are lightyears better than what LeBron's Heat were.

IndyRealist
07-22-2016, 06:38 AM
You're not comparing two things of the same magnitude.. Yes, LeBron won rings but it wasn't with a team like the Warriors had and for sure, LeBron absolutely EARNED those rings. Durant wouldn't be earning much if this thing goes out as planned. Let's not act like the difficulty in winning the rings don't matter. People respect greatness when rings are won and at the end of the day, it remains to be seen if Durant can achieve that without the help of the Warriors. They are lightyears better than what LeBron's Heat were.

I mean, people knock Kobe for not winning without a HOF big man, but how MUCH do they knock him? They drop him a handful of places on GOAT lists. That's it. Conversely, how much DISRESPECT does Karl Malone and John Stockon get for not having rings for no other reason than being in the league the same time as MJ?

Lebron went to form the scariest trio in the league, and a bunch of vets took less to go there for rings, including HoF Ray Allen. The only reason it's not considered the EXACT same is because time has passed. In 5 years only OKC fans, Hawkeye and Chronz will still be bashing Durant, assuming he wins rings in GS.

FraziersKnicks
07-22-2016, 07:37 AM
I mean, people knock Kobe for not winning without a HOF big man, but how MUCH do they knock him? They drop him a handful of places on GOAT lists. That's it. Conversely, how much DISRESPECT does Karl Malone and John Stockon get for not having rings for no other reason than being in the league the same time as MJ?

Lebron went to form the scariest trio in the league, and a bunch of vets took less to go there for rings, including HoF Ray Allen. The only reason it's not considered the EXACT same is because time has passed. In 5 years only OKC fans, Hawkeye and Chronz will still be bashing Durant, assuming he wins rings in GS.

When will people ****ing understand... The reason it's not the same is because KD is joining a ****ING 73 WIN TEAM. A team that was a chasedown block away from back to back titles. LeBron joined a team that was knocked out in the first round. The success of that team was then based on LEBRON. The success of this Warriors team will not be based on KD. It is well established they don't need him to have the greatest regular season of all-time. There is your difference.

Now if you still can't see that, then you're either dumb as **** or have a blind hatred for LeBron.

FraziersKnicks
07-22-2016, 07:42 AM
As for people not caring in 5 years time, that's BS. People still bring up the fact Kobe was second fiddle to Shaq for those titles. Hence why most people have Shaq above Kobe all-time with less rings. Than was nearly 15 years ago.

As Chronz said, people who care enough about the sport to debate it on forums will remember the context of any KD chips and use it accordingly. Those same people are probably gonna be knowledgable enough to understand not all rings are created equal. That's why Robert Horry isn't a top 10 player all-time and why Bill Russell struggles to make a lot of people's lists. That's why although Bron and Wade have the same amount of rings, LeBron is a top 5 player ever and Wade is top 25.

McAllen Tx
07-22-2016, 07:42 AM
There's no way the KD & LBJ situations are the same. Miami wasn't a contender before LBJ got there. The signing of LBJ & Bosh made them contenders. LBJ was the main reason Miami became a contender. GS was already favored to win the ship before KD signed there. He joined the already Vegas favored team to win the ship.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 10:08 AM
There's no way the KD & LBJ situations are the same. Miami wasn't a contender before LBJ got there. The signing of LBJ & Bosh made them contenders. LBJ was the main reason Miami became a contender. GS was already favored to win the ship before KD signed there. He joined the already Vegas favored team to win the ship.

they are both uniquely different situations. The biggest differences to me are this:

- LeBron STILL had to be the best player on the floor to win chips
- LeBron didn't leave behind a contending team and a top 5 player


Those 2 variables are what make it a little sour for me to really have much respect for any accomplishment Durant has in GS, unless Curry/Klay/Green, some portion of that combo, go down and can't play and Durant is clearly the best player leading a lesser team than he just signed up with.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 12:09 PM
Didnt have to be Boston. Noone would've said anything negative about him of he would've joined the Clippers.
That's not a super team? Paul JJ KD Griffin & Paul?

You guys are crazy. Yes it was a cop out move but to say Bron wasn't a cop out move is ludacris.

Nobody even mentions LA going to the Spurs which made them favorites on paper. The Warriors won the year before to a depleted Cav's team. Lost to a healthy super team this year with Bron, Irving and love.

So Bron can put super teams together whenever he feels the league is catching up. Teammates are declining. The Bron nut huggers are blinded by the face it's no more cake walk. No more favorites to win. As someone stated before Bron oped the door, Durant folloewd.

My apologies if any typos. I'm at work unloading cars off trains. But I can PSD without crashing!!!

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Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 12:16 PM
That's not a super team? Paul JJ KD Griffin & Paul?

You guys are crazy. Yes it was a cop out move but to say Bron wasn't a cop out move is ludacris.

Nobody even mentions LA going to the Spurs which made them favorites on paper. The Warriors won the year before to a depleted Cav's team. Lost to a healthy super team this year with Bron, Irving and love.

So Bron can put super teams together whenever he feels the league is catching up. Teammates are declining. The Bron nut huggers are blinded by the face it's no more cake walk. No more favorites to win. As someone stated before Bron oped the door, Durant folloewd.

My apologies if any typos. I'm at work unloading cars off trains. But I can PSD without crashing!!!

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk


Lol you're on a roll man. The hypocrisy is real!

It's like T Pain fans getting mad at Future for using auto tune. Forgetting their guy made it cool in the first place.

The next star is going to take it further than KD now, they're going to join a team that is the defending champs on a minimum contract then the Internet is going to explode.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 12:17 PM
they are both uniquely different situations. The biggest differences to me are this:

- LeBron STILL had to be the best player on the floor to win chips
- LeBron didn't leave behind a contending team and a top 5 player


Those 2 variables are what make it a little sour for me to really have much respect for any accomplishment Durant has in GS, unless Curry/Klay/Green, some portion of that combo, go down and can't play and Durant is clearly the best player leading a lesser team than he just signed up with.
But he went as the number 1. Self proclaimed king. Mr I'm the best in the league. Went to team up with the best sg in the league!!! Plus a top 4 pf. Stop it. You're obviously to emotionally invested with you're man crush on Lebron.

Not sure if it was you or Chronz. You guys IMO run the NBA forum (both being top notch posters) said you loved him when others were hating.

Then when Wade started his decline he ran home. To a younger tram with a bigger window. He essentially ensures he's on the easiest path year in and year out. 1 year contract king!! If I don't get my way I leave. Smh.

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 12:23 PM
Lol you're on a roll man. The hypocrisy is real!

It's like T Pain fans getting mad at Future for using auto tune. Forgetting their guy made it cool in the first place.

The next star is going to take it further than KD now, they're going to join a team that is the defending champs on a minimum contract then the Internet is going to explode.
4 real!!!!!!

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FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 12:27 PM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.

Because you're ignoring the reason why LeBron and the Heat got as much hate as they did. It was how he left and how they announced themselves that made everyone despise them. It was about more than basketball because they made it about more than basketball.

Also, the Cavs had the best record in the NBA in 2009 and 2010, while the Magic and Celtics teams they failed to beat were nowhere remotely close to that Warriors team. Cry me a river on that talk lol. It's the same crap, Durant just handled it with much more class. That's why he's not getting killed on the same level. Make no mistake though, plenty of people are giving Durant crap.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 12:29 PM
I mean, people knock Kobe for not winning without a HOF big man, but how MUCH do they knock him? They drop him a handful of places on GOAT lists. That's it. Conversely, how much DISRESPECT does Karl Malone and John Stockon get for not having rings for no other reason than being in the league the same time as MJ?

Lebron went to form the scariest trio in the league, and a bunch of vets took less to go there for rings, including HoF Ray Allen. The only reason it's not considered the EXACT same is because time has passed. In 5 years only OKC fans, Hawkeye and Chronz will still be bashing Durant, assuming he wins rings in GS.

I wasn't going to respond cuz reasons but DUDE. Its not just us, he's being bood by children ffs. I think that generation will remember more than you tbh. The situations aren't the same at all. What kd did is the ultimate puss move. It will never be topped cuz you know they already won+broke records

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 12:43 PM
I wasn't going to respond cuz reasons but DUDE. Its not just us, he's being bood by children ffs. I think that generation will remember more than you tbh. The situations aren't the same at all. What kd did is the ultimate puss move. It will never be topped cuz you know they already won+broke records

Why do you say that, when going into the offseason the Warriors weren't even the team to beat? Did you already forget that Cleveland won the championship while LeBron and Irving had arguably the most dominant two man performance in Finals history?

LeBron couldn't beat the teams that lost to the Lakers in the Finals, so he proceeded to create a team in Miami that completely dwarfed the Lakers in talent. Durant joined the team that lost to the Cavs in the Finals, but the talent level is still similar.

Now it will be KD and Curry vs LeBron and Irving. Plus Klay, Green and Livingston vs Love, Thompson and JR.


It will never be topped cuz you know they already won+broke records

How can you say that's any different than what LeBron did in Miami? Why, because his choking in 2011 and them taking time to mesh prevented them from reaching their ceiling? They went to 4 straight Finals and should have been one of the very few teams in NBA history to 3 peat. They set plenty of records, none which were surprising from day one.

Same ole double standards talk for LeBron to prop him up lol. Durant is joining LeBron at his own game.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 12:44 PM
But he went as the number 1. Self proclaimed king. Mr I'm the best in the league. Went to team up with the best sg in the league!!! Plus a top 4 pf. Stop it. You're obviously to emotionally invested with you're man crush on Lebron.

Not sure if it was you or Chronz. You guys IMO run the NBA forum (both being top notch posters) said you loved him when others were hating.

Then when Wade started his decline he ran home. To a younger tram with a bigger window. He essentially ensures he's on the easiest path year in and year out. 1 year contract king!! If I don't get my way I leave. Smh.

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what are you talking about? What team do you think I root for?

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 12:47 PM
what are you talking about? What team do you think I root for?
Wolves

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 12:50 PM
Hell I didn't even care about LeBron until he started getting A-Rod hate. Then I pulled for him so everyone could shut up. After he won, I stopped caring if he won or lost.

For me, Wolves or die. That is the only team I really care about.



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Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 12:52 PM
Because you're ignoring the reason why LeBron and the Heat got as much hate as they did. It was how he left and how they announced themselves that made everyone despise them. It was about more than basketball because they made it about more than basketball.

And I get that part. As stated by me, I hate Kobe but I never let it interfere with my understanding how great he was and put his play and achievments in the proper perspective. When we allow our personal bias to actually change our perception of their basketball ability, that is where the problem comes up. And that happened with LeBron.


Also, the Cavs had the best record in the NBA in 2009 and 2010, while the Magic and Celtics teams they failed to beat were nowhere remotely close to that Warriors team. Cry me a river on that talk lol. It's the same crap, Durant just handled it with much more class. That's why he's not getting killed on the same level. Make no mistake though, plenty of people are giving Durant crap.

how did they play without LeBron? I don't rember people arguing over who Cleveland's best player was like they did OKC...

Bron left **** to go lead a team. Durant is leaving a great roster to play with an established title contender who has won without him, and won 73 games. Without him...

If people don't get the difference, not sure how to dumb it down any further

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 12:54 PM
Wolves

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Wade's decline started before LeBron even got there. Hell, Wade was a replacement level player for that 2nd title

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 01:02 PM
And I get that part. As stated by me, I hate Kobe but I never let it interfere with my understanding how great he was and put his play and achievments in the proper perspective. When we allow our personal bias to actually change our perception of their basketball ability, that is where the problem comes up. And that happened with LeBron.

I agree, but LeBron and the Heat brought that upon themselves with how they went about it.


how did they play without LeBron? I don't rember people arguing over who Cleveland's best player was like they did OKC...

OKC missed the playoffs the year Durant hurt his foot, did they not? OKC will have a good shot at the postseason, if 41-wins is still good enough to get there, but this was a devastating blow. There's just no way you can adjust to losing someone you build your team around on the spot without a respectable replacement. Well, unless you're the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls. :smoking:

But that Cavs team had a lot more changes than just LeBron. They had a coaching change and the mental impact of how he left completely crushed that team. Still doesn't change the fact that they were great with LeBron and had far weaker competition. Back then people used to say that the Lakers were crazy stacked because of guys like Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum. A lot has changed since then, now a days a team like the Cavs has someone who was 2nd Team All-NBA the year before joining them in a role player role.


Bron left **** to go lead a team. Durant is leaving a great roster to play with an established title contender who has won without him, and won 73 games. Without him...

If people don't get the difference, not sure how to dumb it down any further

Bron left to form a team that completely dwarfed the Lakers, Celtics and Magic in talent. KD went to form a team that is comparable in talent to the NBA champion Cavs.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 01:08 PM
Wade's decline started before LeBron even got there. Hell, Wade was a replacement level player for that 2nd title
The year before Bron came he had a career high in points. The second year Bron was there career high in fg%

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 01:12 PM
And to be clear we may be debating on this subject. But I respect you're opinion so let's keep it clean. Unlike some posters when they're on opposite ends of the spectrum.

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Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 01:19 PM
The year before Bron came he had a career high in points. The second year Bron was there career high in fg%

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Do you think LeBron is on his decline?

In 2011, Wade was still an all NBA team player. His playoffs in 2012, and 2013, his body just quit on him for long stretches. Crashing style of play like he always did predicates that will happen.

Durant is joining Curry, Klay, and Green, who are all in their absolute peak, as well as Durant. They didn't even need him to win. Wade/Bosh/replacement level and whatever else Miami had? They weren't winning more than a playoff series or two in the east. At best.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 01:21 PM
In 2010 were you calling them role players

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mngopher35
07-22-2016, 01:39 PM
Wait so the heat far outmatched the initial big three plus rondo or Kobe/gasol/odom/Bynum/artest with their three great elite stars and scrubs but somehow Durant joining the most talented team in the league is somehow close to the cavs? Not sure if people are serious at this point lol. It took insane performances, a suspension, and injuries for them to just barely win in 7 games. Now the other team just added Durant. This warriors team was best around without him, heat don't win titles without James...

Anyways Durants legacy can still end up good just like lebrons did but it seems unlikely. If curry and like iggy go down to injury and he actually has to carry the team like Lebron did in 12/13 for example I can see him getting tons of credit. If he just is the secondary star to steph and they don't have major challenges like some expect then I think it will be closer to thinking of him as that secondary guy (which doesn't get the same credit in comparison to greats). The weird thing here is it could actually kinda limit stephs legacy in a way. I thought he was on track for multiple fmvps as the clear leader but now even if he gets that it might not seem quite as impressive given the context.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 01:40 PM
In 2010 were you calling them role players

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I highly doubt that. In 2011, Wade played at an all NBA level. Bosh did not. In fact, Bosh made 1 all NBA team his entire career, in 2006. Wade's playoffs in 2012, and 2013, were marred with inconsistency, and he was actually awful against the Pacers in that crucial 2013 series. Hell Bosh missed some playoff games in 2012 with injury.

Wade made a 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd team all NBA during that four year run. Bosh made 0.

Durant, is joining:
2nd team all NBA, 1st team all NBA Defensive- Green
1st team all NBA, MVP- Curry
3rd team all NBA- Klay

Durant is joining 3 guys who made all NBA teams, including the MVP. His move is unprecedented for a star player. Nothing close has happened like this. And in reality, it was because not only is he a beta, he hit free agency in the weirdest offseason we have had, where the cap exploded. Any other year, a contending team would never have this money to spend.

IndyRealist
07-22-2016, 01:59 PM
When will people ****ing understand... The reason it's not the same is because KD is joining a ****ING 73 WIN TEAM. A team that was a chasedown block away from back to back titles. LeBron joined a team that was knocked out in the first round. The success of that team was then based on LEBRON. The success of this Warriors team will not be based on KD. It is well established they don't need him to have the greatest regular season of all-time. There is your difference.

Now if you still can't see that, then you're either dumb as **** or have a blind hatred for LeBron.

The adults are having a civil conversation. If you want, you can participate too.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-22-2016, 02:20 PM
Lebron teams was supposed to net not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4......

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Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 02:26 PM
I highly doubt that. In 2011, Wade played at an all NBA level. Bosh did not. In fact, Bosh made 1 all NBA team his entire career, in 2006. Wade's playoffs in 2012, and 2013, were marred with inconsistency, and he was actually awful against the Pacers in that crucial 2013 series. Hell Bosh missed some playoff games in 2012 with injury.

Wade made a 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd team all NBA during that four year run. Bosh made 0.

Durant, is joining:
2nd team all NBA, 1st team all NBA Defensive- Green
1st team all NBA, MVP- Curry
3rd team all NBA- Klay

Durant is joining 3 guys who made all NBA teams, including the MVP. His move is unprecedented for a star player. Nothing close has happened like this. And in reality, it was because not only is he a beta, he hit free agency in the weirdest offseason we have had, where the cap exploded. Any other year, a contending team would never have this money to spend.

Bosh was a perineal allstar and widely considered the best PF in the game and only the 3rd most sought after FA behind Bron and Wade. Wade was a champ and a had one of the most impressive Finals MVPs ever under his belt. Not to mention Ray Allen, NBA champ, perineal allstar, 3 point champ, best shooter in history at the time. Not to mention Shane Battier one of the best defensive wings in the game. Not to mention not one but TWO 3 point shooting champions in James Jones and Mike Miller.

That team was stacked bruh, no matter how much you downplay it.

At the time the "not 1, not 2, not 3,...." talk was really believable and the leaguewide consensus was this wasn't fair, they just bought multiple championships, and no one else even had a chance. And it works, they got to Finals every year since the formation.

They made a entire change in the salary structure as a result of that Superteam extravaganza becuase of leaguewide outrage.

Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 02:34 PM
Wait so the heat far outmatched the initial big three plus rondo or Kobe/gasol/odom/Bynum/artest with their three great elite stars and scrubs but somehow Durant joining the most talented team in the league is somehow close to the cavs? Not sure if people are serious at this point lol. It took insane performances, a suspension, and injuries for them to just barely win in 7 games. Now the other team just added Durant. This warriors team was best around without him, heat don't win titles without James...

Anyways Durants legacy can still end up good just like lebrons did but it seems unlikely. If curry and like iggy go down to injury and he actually has to carry the team like Lebron did in 12/13 for example I can see him getting tons of credit. If he just is the secondary star to steph and they don't have major challenges like some expect then I think it will be closer to thinking of him as that secondary guy (which doesn't get the same credit in comparison to greats). The weird thing here is it could actually kinda limit stephs legacy in a way. I thought he was on track for multiple fmvps as the clear leader but now even if he gets that it might not seem quite as impressive given the context.

There are a lot of people that contend that if Kyrie plays that first Finals matchup that Cleveland wins that one as well, a fair assumption given the fact that they were up 2 games to 1 on their own home court with Lebron and the likes of Mozgov and Delly. If healthy Lebron, and a still improving Kyrie plus Love will still be more than capable of competing with the Dubs even with KD.

Anyhow I disagree that some kindof injury or spectacular circumstance will have to take place for KD to get his props. If he contributes in a large way in a championship the majority of fans will give him his due.

The fans that won't are the ones that are still upset that Lebron got vilified and in that case it doesn't matter because they'll always hold it against him anyway

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 02:39 PM
Bosh was a perineal allstar and widely considered the best PF in the game and only the 3rd most sought after FA behind Bron and Wade. Wade was a champ and a had one of the most impressive Finals MVPs ever under his belt. Not to mention Ray Allen, NBA champ, perineal allstar, 3 point champ, best shooter in history at the time. Not to mention Shane Battier one of the best defensive wings in the game. Not to mention not one but TWO 3 point shooting champions in James Jones and Mike Miller.

That team was stacked bruh, no matter how much you downplay it.

At the time the "not 1, not 2, not 3,...." talk was really believable and the leaguewide consensus was this wasn't fair, they just bought multiple championships, and no one else even had a chance. And it works, they got to Finals every year since the formation.

They made a entire change in the salary structure as a result of that Superteam extravaganza becuase of leaguewide outrage.

You are naming role players added after the initial year they came together first of all. I do agree those role players definitely helped keep them as a/the top team in the league with the issues to Wade etc. However that Heat team is far more comparable to GS last year than it is to the new group. They had the MVP and top players at multiple other positions just like the Heat (GS fits together far better as well but I can see the argument for more talent on the Heats top 3 initially, although depth was horrible at that time). Then add to this the depth that the Warriors had and fact that they already were winning titles/breaking wins records as a group as well. I think Heat vs. Warriors would have made for a good argument who was better before this, people were talking about them as an all time team until games 5-7 happened.

Durant joining the Warriors is not on the same level as the Heat coming together. It is more like Durant just jumping on the Heat team after they already had established themselves with that talent...

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 02:41 PM
LeBron and Irving just had arguably the most dominant two man Finals performance in NBA history. Irving just badly outplayed Curry in a 7-game series which included a glorious game winning 3 in the closing seconds of game 7. LeBron has a career 17-4 record vs Durant in regular season + postseason and has beaten him in an NBA Finals. LeBron fans swear up and down that he always outplays Durant and said if OKC made the Finals that they had no chance against Cleveland for that reason.

Why now, because Durant went there, are we acting like KD + Curry >>>>> LeBron + Irving? LeBron is all this, LeBron is all that but for some reason it seems like he always needs to be placed in the victim role. :laugh2:

We haven't seen this Golden State team play a single game yet. We don't know how everyone will be impacted by another high volume star. We don't know if anyone will be turned into a "Bosh/Love", so to speak. We don't know how well they will all mesh together with one ball. We don't know how the loss in role players will be replaced by the new bodies in their place.

Why is everyone already writing off the super stacked Cavs who just won an NBA championship already? Is it because they lost Matthew Dellavedova? Is that going to be the excuse?

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 02:57 PM
You are naming role players added after the initial year they came together first of all. I do agree those role players definitely helped keep them as a/the top team in the league with the issues to Wade etc. However that Heat team is far more comparable to GS last year than it is to the new group.

We haven't seen this new GS team play yet. Going from Harrison Barnes, who didn't handle or shoot the ball a lot, to Kevin Durant, who will do both of those things as much as Steph Curry does, will greatly change the entire dynamic of their team. In theory, it will be for the better, but we haven't seen that yet. Pretty hard to improve on 73-wins but they should be better in the postseason. Again, in theory.

That Miami team was one of the greatest and most stacked teams in NBA history. If not for LeBron choking in that first Finals, they would have been one of just 6 teams in history to 3peat. The other 5 are,

1952–54 Minneapolis Lakers
1959–66 Boston Celtics (8)
1991–93 Chicago Bulls
1996–98 Chicago Bulls
2000–02 Los Angeles Lakers

Of those teams, they would have joined only Russell's Celtics as a team to make 4-straight Finals. If he didn't decide to leave for greener pastures yet again, that could have been 5 or 6 by now.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 02:59 PM
There are a lot of people that contend that if Kyrie plays that first Finals matchup that Cleveland wins that one as well, a fair assumption given the fact that they were up 2 games to 1 on their own home court with Lebron and the likes of Mozgov and Delly. If healthy Lebron, and a still improving Kyrie plus Love will still be more than capable of competing with the Dubs even with KD.

I think you could definitely make an argument both teams that lost seemed to have bigger issues with their players. There are definitely arguments for the losers both years that it was in part because they weren't at full strength, agreed.

I think the old Warriors team matched up better against the Cavs and now they have Durant on top. Green/Klay is a better combo than Irving/Love imo. Their role players aren't that different in the end outside of the top guys. It was a battle likely to favor GS moving forward before adding a top 3 player (vegas already had), now it would be a big upset. The good thing for Lebron though is this will be by far the least pressure he has had in years to win and if he does it could be considered one of the best feats ever (assuming it is due to his play they win). He does have an opportunity here with that.


Anyhow I disagree that some kindof injury or spectacular circumstance will have to take place for KD to get his props. If he contributes in a large way in a championship the majority of fans will give him his due.

The fans that won't are the ones that are still upset that Lebron got vilified and in that case it doesn't matter because they'll always hold it against him anyway

Not at all. I think for many basketball fans they are capable of discussing context etc around each situation. Lebron had those incredible performances in 12/13 and even then some still tried to discredit him even with decline/injuries. This is a worse scenario so it would take even more than that imo. Unless something like that happens to a greater extent I don't see anyone on that team getting major credit. I highly doubt if fully healthy we see someone like Bird calling it the best post season run ever possibly. They simply won't need it like the Heat did is part of it.

Steph/Klay not playing up to their level or something could have a similar affect but the key is Durant would have to carry the team like Lebron did to get similar credit and I don't see it happening. Again that is a weird thing about this because if he does do that then it actually might affect Currys legacy.

To many fans rings are not the only things that matter and those are the ones worth talking to about bball anyways so in that sense I disagree. If you are saying plenty of people who don't watch much or care about basketball might look at it as close/similar just because of ringz then I would agree with that though.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 03:07 PM
We haven't seen this new GS team play yet. Going from Harrison Barnes, who didn't handle or shoot the ball a lot, to Kevin Durant, who will do both of those things as much as Steph Curry does, will greatly change the entire dynamic of their team. In theory, it will be for the better, but we haven't seen that yet. Pretty hard to improve on 73-wins but they should be better in the postseason. Again, in theory.

That Miami team was one of the greatest and most stacked teams in NBA history. If not for LeBron choking in that first Finals, they would have been one of just 6 teams in history to 3peat. The other 5 are,

1952–54 Minneapolis Lakers
1959–66 Boston Celtics (8)
1991–93 Chicago Bulls
1996–98 Chicago Bulls
2000–02 Los Angeles Lakers

Of those teams, they would have joined only Russell's Celtics as a team to make 4-straight Finals. If he didn't decide to leave for greener pastures yet again, that could have been 5 or 6 by now.

Not sure your point here? I agree those Heat teams were very good. I am saying Warriors were at that level before Durant even came basically which makes this different. People talked about them as potentially the greatest team ever during this season and they just added a top 3 player to that core. The Heat came together to create a great team that hopefully was an all time team like you mention (while not 3 peating 2/4 is a great winning % especially considering Wade's fall off in playoffs after Lebron choked in 11). Durant simply joined one already in place.

The fit issues are nothing like the Heat had and there is more talent and there is more depth. I agree it is in theory that it comes together though which is why I said we have to wait and see before saying his legacy will go either way. The key will be how he plays on the way to the title and if there was any resistance/pressure etc.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 03:33 PM
Not sure your point here? I agree those Heat teams were very good. I am saying Warriors were at that level before Durant even came basically which makes this different. People talked about them as potentially the greatest team ever during this season and they just added a top 3 player to that core. The Heat came together to create a great team that hopefully was an all time team like you mention (while not 3 peating 2/4 is a great winning % especially considering Wade's fall off in playoffs after Lebron choked in 11). Durant simply joined one already in place.

The fit issues are nothing like the Heat had and there is more talent and there is more depth. I agree it is in theory that it comes together though which is why I said we have to wait and see before saying his legacy will go either way. The key will be how he plays on the way to the title and if there was any resistance/pressure etc.

It's also a much different league. Durant was competing with that GS team plus the Cavs that beat them. LeBron was competing with the Lakers and Celtics, who were not nearly as talented as either nor the Heat team that he formed. GS is more talented than Cleveland but they are also stacked on that level.

Are Curry and Durant going to play as well as LeBron and Irving just did this playoff run? I don't know, that's pretty hard to top. Keep in mind that Irving is just 24-years old, this guy hasn't even peaked yet. I think the biggest problem for Cleveland vs Golden State will still be trying to figure out how to utilize Kevin Love vs them. But still, LeBron can handle Durant and Irving just whooped Curry's butt a month ago, so writing them off is premature.

Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 03:36 PM
I think you could definitely make an argument both teams that lost seemed to have bigger issues with their players. There are definitely arguments for the losers both years that it was in part because they weren't at full strength, agreed.

I think the old Warriors team matched up better against the Cavs and now they have Durant on top. Green/Klay is a better combo than Irving/Love imo. Their role players aren't that different in the end outside of the top guys. It was a battle likely to favor GS moving forward before adding a top 3 player (vegas already had), now it would be a big upset. The good thing for Lebron though is this will be by far the least pressure he has had in years to win and if he does it could be considered one of the best feats ever (assuming it is due to his play they win). He does have an opportunity here with that.



Not at all. I think for many basketball fans they are capable of discussing context etc around each situation. Lebron had those incredible performances in 12/13 and even then some still tried to discredit him even with decline/injuries. This is a worse scenario so it would take even more than that imo. Unless something like that happens to a greater extent I don't see anyone on that team getting major credit. I highly doubt if fully healthy we see someone like Bird calling it the best post season run ever possibly. They simply won't need it like the Heat did is part of it.

Steph/Klay not playing up to their level or something could have a similar affect but the key is Durant would have to carry the team like Lebron did to get similar credit and I don't see it happening. Again that is a weird thing about this because if he does do that then it actually might affect Currys legacy.

To many fans rings are not the only things that matter and those are the ones worth talking to about bball anyways so in that sense I disagree. If you are saying plenty of people who don't watch much or care about basketball might look at it as close/similar just because of ringz then I would agree with that though.

I think you give fans too little credit. There are many that are able to put things in context, look at the entire situation, and while rings aren't the ONLY thing that matters they are still extremely important when ranking all time greats. It's not as if there's only two groups: the rings matter group vs the context group, it's possible to take both into consideration.

That's why for example K Malone and Stockton are in nobodies consensus in top 10, from expert to casual fan to sport forums. Is it just because they don't have rings? Of course not but if they had the same stats with rings on top of it everybody's top 10 changes.

Bottom line like KD said his stats will be there. Will the rings be there to go with them? If so we'll forgive him just like Bron, and not just the causal fan either, but plenty of so called "knowledgeable" fans.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 03:48 PM
It's also a much different league. Durant was competing with that GS team plus the Cavs that beat them. LeBron was competing with the Lakers and Celtics, who were not nearly as talented as either nor the Heat team that he formed. GS is more talented than Cleveland but they are also stacked on that level.

The Heat team was more talented at the top but did not fit together nor have the depth/coaching like those other teams you mentioned. I agree that they were very good but it wasn't like they could take out Lebron and still be a top team. This GS team without Durant has already proven they can.

Also I am glad you mentioned Durant's team. Let's again point out that not only was Durant the only one of the top 3 guys to also play with a top 5 player last season. He also didn't just go and make a new powerhouse to match up with those top teams, he simply left his and joined the current favorite/potential all time team.


Are Curry and Durant going to play as well as LeBron and Irving just did this playoff run? I don't know, that's pretty hard to top. Keep in mind that Irving is just 24-years old, this guy hasn't even peaked yet. I think the biggest problem for Cleveland vs Golden State will still be trying to figure out how to utilize Kevin Love vs them. But still, LeBron can handle Durant and Irving just whooped Curry's butt a month ago, so writing them off is premature.

Even if the 2nd and 3rd best player in the league can't match up with Lebron and a top 15ish guy in Irving they still have Green/Thompson who are both arguable better than Love (especially considering fit). It isn't that Lebron and Irving have to match those two, it is that Lebron alone has to match those two now and even then who knows. This last finals with everything else going on Lebron far outplayed Curry yet it came down to a chase down block and Kyrie 3 to win it still. Now GS might be healthy, might not have a suspension, might get Curry back to his normal standard, AND added KD. Even without that last one they were the favorites to win.

I am not completely writing anything off but like you said Lebron+Kyrie had an incredible finals and they just barely squeaked out a win with everything else going on. Now they have to not only deal with that team at full strength potentially but after adding a top 3 player as well.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 03:54 PM
Bosh was a perineal allstar and widely considered the best PF in the game and only the 3rd most sought after FA behind Bron and Wade. Wade was a champ and a had one of the most impressive Finals MVPs ever under his belt. Not to mention Ray Allen, NBA champ, perineal allstar, 3 point champ, best shooter in history at the time. Not to mention Shane Battier one of the best defensive wings in the game. Not to mention not one but TWO 3 point shooting champions in James Jones and Mike Miller.

That team was stacked bruh, no matter how much you downplay it.

At the time the "not 1, not 2, not 3,...." talk was really believable and the leaguewide consensus was this wasn't fair, they just bought multiple championships, and no one else even had a chance. And it works, they got to Finals every year since the formation.

They made a entire change in the salary structure as a result of that Superteam extravaganza becuase of leaguewide outrage.

haha, by who? He made a single all NBA team (3rd) in 2006, and his Raps made the playoffs twice (both 1st round knockouts) during his tenure. He wasn't anywhere near the top PF in the game. Duncan, KG, Dirk, Amare, at the very least (doing this off the top of my head) were much better.

The team had the MVP, and a 2nd team all NBA SG on the tail end of his prime, along with an all star caliber player who didn't make all NBA teams, and a collection of minimum salary role players/rookie players.

Was it really good? Yep. Stacked? Hell no. Not if we are starting the word "Stacked" with the current Warriors.

I keep reading about what the consensus was at the time. Or preseason predictions. Who the hell cares? We now have actual results. We now know Wade's body quit for crucial periods of time. We now know Bosh was really never anything more than a good 3rd wing. Results are all that matter.

They didn't start anything. The CBA set all of that up.

Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 03:57 PM
haha, by who? He made a single all NBA team (3rd) in 2006, and his Raps made the playoffs twice (both 1st round knockouts) during his tenure. He wasn't anywhere near the top PF in the game. Duncan, KG, Dirk, Amare, at the very least (doing this off the top of my head) were much better.

The team had the MVP, and a 2nd team all NBA SG on the tail end of his prime, along with an all star caliber player who didn't make all NBA teams, and a collection of minimum salary role players/rookie players.

Was it really good? Yep. Stacked? Hell no. Not if we are starting the word "Stacked" with the current Warriors.

I keep reading about what the consensus was at the time. Or preseason predictions. Who the hell cares? We now have actual results. We now know Wade's body quit for crucial periods of time. We now know Bosh was really never anything more than a good 3rd wing. Results are all that matter.

They didn't start anything. The CBA set all of that up.


If the consensus of the Heat being super stacked and about to win multiple chips at the time doesn't matter, we had to see how it played out, then the consensus about Golden State being invincible now shouldn't matter either.

Let's see how it plays out.

That's fair right?

Hawkeye15
07-22-2016, 04:01 PM
If the consensus of the Heat being super stacked and about to win multiple chips at the time doesn't matter, we had to see how it played out, then the consensus about Golden State being invincible now shouldn't matter either.

Let's see how it plays out.

That's fair right?

It can literally play out only 3 ways, since the team is already an established powerhouse.

1- GS wins, there are no major injuries
2- GS wins, with major injuries to one of more of their 4 stars
3- GS loses

Only #2, with Durant being one of the healthy ones, and being the top dog on the team, helps him in any way. The other 2 don't do anything for his "legacy".

the facts are:

Durant had a contending roster
LeBron did not have a contending roster
the team LeBron went to, he had to be the best player for them to win
the team Durant went to, doesn't even need him to win a chip

There is no speculation, or predictions in those 4 statements.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 04:42 PM
I think you give fans too little credit. There are many that are able to put things in context, look at the entire situation, and while rings aren't the ONLY thing that matters they are still extremely important when ranking all time greats. It's not as if there's only two groups: the rings matter group vs the context group, it's possible to take both into consideration.

I agree. I am saying those that take context into each situation will see the things I have been pointing out. If Durant simply contributes in a large way to this team and everything goes as people expect I don't think context will be behind him at all. It will look like he is a top level player who simply hopped on for the ride to a title. If there were injuries or something and he was taking over in an elite way instead of just contributing as a co top or secondary type player or something it will be different though.

I think if they all have very good stats but little resistance it won't be nearly as big of a deal for him. The reason Lebron got so much credit is the pressure he had to face due to those injuries/decline and being the clear cut guy. Boston game 6, Spurs game 7 come to mind at first. If Durant is having all time great performances carrying the team to a title when it seems like it could be out of reach then he will get similar credit. If he simply is very good like his teammates and they are just clearly superior I think only the people that count rings and ignore context will see it as similar...


That's why for example K Malone and Stockton are in nobodies consensus in top 10, from expert to casual fan to sport forums. Is it just because they don't have rings? Of course not but if they had the same stats with rings on top of it everybody's top 10 changes.

Bottom line like KD said his stats will be there. Will the rings be there to go with them? If so we'll forgive him just like Bron, and not just the causal fan either, but plenty of so called "knowledgeable" fans.

Part of the reason Malone doesn't have a ring is that his individual play fell off in the playoffs on a regular basis. If Malone wins a ring in 04 with the Lakers I don't think anyone moves him top 10. If Hakeem in his prime joined the team and they won rings next to him being the man then I don't think it raises their stock like you claim. If he had some all time performances to beat MJ then ya we might be talking about it differently but again that would be based off the context of his play. Context will always matter more imo although I do think many overrate rings if that's what you are getting at.

I think my 2nd paragraph to the other response covers your last point. It would take all time performances, clearly being the #1 option, and huge pressure situations for him to get similar credit. That is the context that went into Lebron changing the script and that is without factoring in the view of Durants move being worse for the many reasons mentioned.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 04:59 PM
Doesn't it seem like at least 4x a week a new story on Durant hypocrisy comes out.

Not that it matters basketball wise but the guy just got a tupac tattoo on his leg. This after saying he wasn't a big fan... Things change but going from not a fan to printing dude on ur body? That's a pretty drastic change imo

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 05:00 PM
The Heat team was more talented at the top but did not fit together nor have the depth/coaching like those other teams you mentioned. I agree that they were very good but it wasn't like they could take out Lebron and still be a top team. This GS team without Durant has already proven they can.

I don't get why you think they weren't as good a fit as those other teams, being that they should have easily been NBA champions. Also, how do you know and why are you assuming that these Warriors won't have similar issues in fit as those Heat? :confused:

Once again, the NBA champion Cleveland Cavaliers that Durant has to beat have way more talent than those NBA champion Los Angeles Lakers did. Do you remember Pau Gasol ever averaging 27 PPG in a Finals next to Kobe with top %'s while he clearly outplayed the league MVP and hit the GW shot in game 7? Do you remember Lamar Odom ever playing as good as Tristan Thompson just did, defending Curry better than anyone on the Cavs roster? Yeah, me neither. Do you understand context?


Also I am glad you mentioned Durant's team. Let's again point out that not only was Durant the only one of the top 3 guys to also play with a top 5 player last season. He also didn't just go and make a new powerhouse to match up with those top teams, he simply left his and joined the current favorite/potential all time team.

And those Cavs teams had the best record in the NBA in 2009 and 2010. LeBron left to form a team that had by far the most talent in the NBA, with the only close team on a raw talent level being Durant's Thunder who were filled with babies. The end result is what matters. The Thunder just won 55-games, those Cavs teams won 66 and 61. Again, context.


Even if the 2nd and 3rd best player in the league can't match up with Lebron and a top 15ish guy in Irving they still have Green/Thompson who are both arguable better than Love (especially considering fit).

Again, how do you know what Green and Thompson are going to look like with their roles diminished? Kevin Love was an All-NBA 2nd Team player before he went to Cleveland, what happened? Let's see what they look like first before we crown them.



It isn't that Lebron and Irving have to match those two, it is that Lebron alone has to match those two now and even then who knows. This last finals with everything else going on Lebron far outplayed Curry yet it came down to a chase down block and Kyrie 3 to win it still. Now GS might be healthy, might not have a suspension, might get Curry back to his normal standard, AND added KD. Even without that last one they were the favorites to win.

What the hell? Why would he have to do that? LeBron AND KYRIE were by far the best two players in the 2016 NBA Finals. LeBron will play against KD, who he can outplay, yes? Kyrie just badly outplayed Curry one month ago, why can't he do it again? JR just did a great job defending Klay, why can't he do it again? Thompson can defend anyone on GS's roster, clearly, so why can't he do it again?

Did GS all of a sudden get someone who can guard Kyrie Irving? Cause he spent the 2016 NBA Finals destroying Klay, Iggy, Curry or anyone else who stepped in front of him.


I am not completely writing anything off but like you said Lebron+Kyrie had an incredible finals and they just barely squeaked out a win with everything else going on. Now they have to not only deal with that team at full strength potentially but after adding a top 3 player as well.

Cleveland could have been healthier too, Kevin Love's concussion didn't help things. He had 17 points and 13 rebounds in game 1 before being injured in game 2. There's more than he can do. We don't know what GS is going to look like or how they're going to adjust to adding a high volume player. Cleveland will be better because they had a coaching change midseason and only hit their stride by the time the postseason came around. They will have a full offseason to fully implement their new schemes and will be better prepared for matchups.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 05:16 PM
Doesn't it seem like at least 4x a week a new story on Durant hypocrisy comes out.

Not that it matters basketball wise but the guy just got a tupac tattoo on his leg. This after saying he wasn't a big fan... Things change but going from not a fan to printing dude on ur body? That's a pretty drastic change imo

LMAO, he did what!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DgbUBoxa48

Saddletramp
07-22-2016, 05:34 PM
I've seen someone call Bosh the best PF in 2010. I've seen people say Lebron went and joined guys like Battier and Ray Allen at least a year before they joined. Ive seen plenty of ridiculousness in this thread but why do I keep seeing this?:


And those Cavs teams had the best record in the NBA in 2009 and 2010. LeBron left to form a team that had by far the most talent in the NBA, with the only close team on a raw talent level being Durant's Thunder who were filled with babies. The end result is what matters. The Thunder just won 55-games, those Cavs teams won 66 and 61. Again, context.


Without Lebron, they were the worst team in the league. Maybe you should adhere to your own context policy.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 05:43 PM
I don't get why you think they weren't as good a fit as those other teams, being that they should have easily been NBA champions. Also, how do you know and why are you assuming that these Warriors won't have similar issues in fit as those Heat? :confused:

Lebron and Wade are ball dominant slashers while Bosh is not the type of player Drayomond is where he brings elite defense etc. complimentary to a star. On top of this the rest of the starting 5 next to those guys was Bibby/Joel Anthony and they didn't have as many good bench pieces either to fill in.

This Warriors core has won a championship together and 73 games already. They replaced Bogut with Zaza and Barnes with Durant sure but overall thats a huge upgrade and the core group who has shown capable is still together. It isn't a complete unknown at all like the Heat were and on top of that the skills fit together nicely (even in OKC Durant was secondary at creating to Westy). I am honestly not sure how you could think they are the same/similar?


Once again, the NBA champion Cleveland Cavaliers that Durant has to beat have way more talent than those NBA champion Los Angeles Lakers did. Do you remember Pau Gasol ever averaging 27 PPG in a Finals next to Kobe with top %'s while he clearly outplayed the league MVP and hit the GW shot in game 7? Do you remember Lamar Odom ever playing as good as Tristan Thompson just did, defending Curry better than anyone on the Cavs roster? Yeah, me neither. Do you understand context?

I remember Pau having a similar PER, WS/48, BPM for the entire 2010 playoffs compared to Kobe. Irving didn't match Lebron like that at all in fact Lebron had to lead the team in pts, reb, ast, stl, blk in the finals despite that performance and with the issues GS had too. In fact statistically Gasol was pretty similar overall in 2010 to Irving this last year in the playoffs (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2010&p1=gasolpa01&y2=2016&p2=irvinky01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=). You use ppg as evidence while ignoring the whole picture and then ask me if I understand context? lol.

Once again while on the conversation of context even with all of that Cleveland just barely pulled away with the title while GS has injuries (Bogut, somewhat Curry and maybe even Iggy) and the Green suspension as well. Not only this but Lebron didn't just jump to the Celtics to overtake the Lakers either. He created a new team to compete with both. You are overrating the Cavs support (it might be better than LA but not by much if so), ignoring what the Warriors had done before those issues (clearly better than Boston 2010 imo), and not taking into account the context of the teams each joined/left.



And those Cavs teams had the best record in the NBA in 2009 and 2010. LeBron left to form a team that had by far the most talent in the NBA, with the only close team on a raw talent level being Durant's Thunder who were filled with babies. The end result is what matters. The Thunder just won 55-games, those Cavs teams won 66 and 61. Again, context.

Honestly answer who had the best supporting cast and do you think it was that close? Lebron never had a 2nd player even near the level of Westbrook. The Cavs next to Lebron did dominate the regular season mostly due to his own play but in the playoffs when teams can just game plan and swarm one guy you need other options. Look at what Lebron did indivudally in the 09 playoffs vs. Orlando since you brought it up. Name me 5 other players to play at that level and have their team lose the series.




Again, how do you know what Green and Thompson are going to look like with their roles diminished? Kevin Love was an All-NBA 2nd Team player before he went to Cleveland, what happened? Let's see what they look like first before we crown them.

Elite defense, spacing, versatility etc. I mean we know their skill sets and have seen them in this system before. Yes adding Durant is an adjustment but I think we have seen plenty of the rest of this core together to see their skills/fit. I agree we need to see what happens still though.





What the hell? Why would he have to do that? LeBron AND KYRIE were by far the best two players in the 2016 NBA Finals. LeBron will play against KD, who he can outplay, yes? Kyrie just badly outplayed Curry one month ago, why can't he do it again? JR just did a great job defending Klay, why can't he do it again? Thompson can defend anyone on GS's roster, clearly, so why can't he do it again?

Curry and even Klay didn't play up to their normal standards in the finals, it is one series. One of them might have had injury issues he was dealing with as well. Why do you want to ignore so much context to push Kyrie's single great performance like he is now going to just be on Currys level or better? Curry>Kyrie, Klay>JR Green>Love. None of those are even questionable to the general consensus do you disagree with any of those? Lebron has to outplay Durant and make up the difference for each one of those essentially.

It isn't impossible for the Cavs to win but again you keep mentioning how well they played yet it was so close. Now the Warriors might get that health back, might not have a suspension, and added Durant. Cavs need to do everything they did this year and make up for Curry/Klay improvement, Draymond playing an extra game, and adding a top 3 player. I mean Kevin Love has room to do better but with how great Lebron and Irving played asking them to upgrade to that level almost seems crazy.



Did GS all of a sudden get someone who can guard Kyrie Irving? Cause he spent the 2016 NBA Finals destroying Klay, Iggy, Curry or anyone else who stepped in front of him.

He had a great series and even playoffs for sure but a 7 game sample size does not negate an entire career. If you really think Kyrie is better than Curry moving forward that is on you, I just definitely disagree with that idea.


Cleveland could have been healthier too, Kevin Love's concussion didn't help things. He had 17 points and 13 rebounds in game 1 before being injured in game 2. There's more than he can do. We don't know what GS is going to look like or how they're going to adjust to adding a high volume player. Cleveland will be better because they had a coaching change midseason and only hit their stride by the time the postseason came around. They will have a full offseason to fully implement their new schemes and will be better prepared for matchups.

The game Love missed they won anyways though. I mean sure they had their issues too but it wasn't quite the same effect as Curry looking much worse than normal, Green missing a game, Bogut missing over 2, and potentially Iggy being not 100% etc. Even just Curry looking/being fully healthy probably tilts it in GS favor imo even if Love never gets hurt either.

I am not saying it is impossible Cleveland wins btw, plenty can happen. I am just saying they were the favorite before Durant joined (not just me, vegas agreed too as did many ppl). He simply wanted/chose to ride the coat tails for an easy ring. It is much closer to him joining Miami after the big 3 were together than him creating his own powerhouse to compete with the best like that trio did.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 05:54 PM
LMAO, he did what!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DgbUBoxa48

You were a 90s kid huh

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 06:08 PM
I've seen someone call Bosh the best PF in 2010. I've seen people say Lebron went and joined guys like Battier and Ray Allen at least a year before they joined. Ive seen plenty of ridiculousness in this thread but why do I keep seeing this?:




Without Lebron, they were the worst team in the league. Maybe you should adhere to your own context policy.

And whenever KD has been hurt, the Thunder have been a .500 team and missed the playoffs when he had foot surgery. The Thunder won 55-games, were the 3rd seed in the west and had the 5th best record in the NBA overall. Why is that more indefensible to leave than a team that had the best record in the NBA in back to back years?

You want to pretend like the 2010-11 Cavs were the same team beyond LeBron, never mind the coaching change, other roster changes and big injuries they had? You want to pretend that a teams ability should be judged on how they look without their best player that the roster is constructed around? Is there a reason why those Heat teams only broke 60-wins once in his 4-years there, despite all of that extra talent?

You thinking that any team has the best record in the NBA, in back-to-back years no less, is because of one player is your issue to sort out. The 2008-09 Cavs weren't top 4 in offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency and rebounding differential because of one player. I understand context just fine, thanks.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 06:10 PM
You were a 90s kid huh

Of course. :laugh2:

Tony_Starks
07-22-2016, 06:14 PM
Doesn't it seem like at least 4x a week a new story on Durant hypocrisy comes out.

Not that it matters basketball wise but the guy just got a tupac tattoo on his leg. This after saying he wasn't a big fan... Things change but going from not a fan to printing dude on ur body? That's a pretty drastic change imo

At least it wasn't a lil B tattoo!

b@llhog24
07-22-2016, 06:21 PM
So to sum up this thread:

LeBron is a *****
Durant is a bigger *****

b@llhog24
07-22-2016, 06:26 PM
Wade's decline started before LeBron even got there. Hell, Wade was a replacement level player for that 2nd title

Wade was widely considered to be the 2nd best player in the league before that free agency. The only other players you could put over him would've been Dwight or Cp3.

b@llhog24
07-22-2016, 06:29 PM
It can literally play out only 3 ways, since the team is already an established powerhouse.

1- GS wins, there are no major injuries
2- GS wins, with major injuries to one of more of their 4 stars
3- GS loses

Only #2, with Durant being one of the healthy ones, and being the top dog on the team, helps him in any way. The other 2 don't do anything for his "legacy".

the facts are:

Durant had a contending roster
LeBron did not have a contending roster
the team LeBron went to, he had to be the best player for them to win
the team Durant went to, doesn't even need him to win a chip

There is no speculation, or predictions in those 4 statements.

Just curious to hear your opinion on this. What if Durant is the best player in route to a ring?

GoferKing_
07-22-2016, 06:43 PM
Why now, because Durant went there, are we acting like KD + Curry >>>>> LeBron + Irving? LeBron is all this, LeBron is all that but for some reason it seems like he always needs to be placed in the victim role. :laugh2:


Dude it actually is KD+Curry+Green+Klay>>>>>> Lebron+Irving, as Durand did not only join Curry on GSW.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 06:58 PM
Lebron and Wade are ball dominant slashers while Bosh is not the type of player Drayomond is where he brings elite defense etc. complimentary to a star. On top of this the rest of the starting 5 next to those guys was Bibby/Joel Anthony and they didn't have as many good bench pieces either to fill in.

Yes, I understand all of that just fine. It's not a matter of whether they'll still be good basketball players, it's whether or not the impact of KD over Barnes truly outweighs whatever the diminished Klay + Green looks like. Curry and KD will also have to sacrifice themselves. This GS team doesn't have to be better than the 2010-11 Miami Heat, they have to be better than the 2016-17 Spurs and then Cavs in the Finals. Clearly, on paper, this GS team is more talented than them or the 2010 Heat.

And why does that even matter? Is there some sort of imaginary cut off where doing something like this becomes acceptable? Leaving to form a superteam that could easily run on to 3peat without surprise is the same difference. You're grasping at strawmen to try and excuse LeBron for being a trendsetter and creating an NBA where Durant has to do something like this to beat LeBron's team. Could he have stayed in OKC or gone to another team like Boston? Sure, but then obviously he's not clearly favored to win the NBA title like he is now, or like LeBron was in 2010/2014. That's why it's the same.


This Warriors core has won a championship together and 73 games already. They replaced Bogut with Zaza and Barnes with Durant sure but overall thats a huge upgrade and the core group who has shown capable is still together. It isn't a complete unknown at all like the Heat were and on top of that the skills fit together nicely (even in OKC Durant was secondary at creating to Westy). I am honestly not sure how you could think they are the same/similar?

And all of that wasn't good enough to beat the 57-win Cavs from this year, so who cares? NBA teams have a ceiling, their talent isn't just going to stack because there's only one ball and so many possessions in a game. You weren't one of those people who though that LeBron, Wade and Bosh were going to be averaging 75+ PPG by themselves back in 2010, were you? You don't just stack on Durant's stats from a totally different situation, everyone is going to be affected. Will they be better? I'm sure they will be. Will that mean they automatically win? No, just like it didn't for those Heat teams.


I remember Pau having a similar PER, WS/48, BPM for the entire 2010 playoffs compared to Kobe. Irving didn't match Lebron like that at all in fact Lebron had to lead the team in pts, reb, ast, stl, blk in the finals despite that performance and with the issues GS had too. In fact statistically Gasol was pretty similar overall in 2010 to Irving this last year in the playoffs (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2010&p1=gasolpa01&y2=2016&p2=irvinky01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=). You use ppg as evidence while ignoring the whole picture and then ask me if I understand context? lol.

Yes, those baseball stats are all cute and all but mean nothing in NBA games. Kyrie Irving was dominating throughout the whole playoffs. He was their best player in plenty of games and offensively was dominating GS just as much as LeBron was. And no, Gasol never had a series close to Irving's Finals in his life. I love Pau, but that kind of dominance just isn't in his blood.

Does that whole picture include rebounding? Are you going to compare the rebounding stats between Pau Gasol and Kyrie Irving? lmao.


Once again while on the conversation of context even with all of that Cleveland just barely pulled away with the title while GS has injuries (Bogut, somewhat Curry and maybe even Iggy) and the Green suspension as well. Not only this but Lebron didn't just jump to the Celtics to overtake the Lakers either. He created a new team to compete with both. You are overrating the Cavs support (it might be better than LA but not by much if so), ignoring what the Warriors had done before those issues (clearly better than Boston 2010 imo), and not taking into account the context of the teams each joined/left.

Why does that matter? Dwyane Wade was already an NBA champion and Finals MVP. Dwyane Wade was one of the top 5 players in the world, if not top 3. Dwyane Wade was easily better than anyone on Boston's roster and could theoretically go toe to toe with Kobe Bryant if they met in an NBA Finals. Why would he join the Lakers or Boston, which wasn't financially possible of course, when he could just form a different team that far exceeds both in talent? Are you going to try and compare Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom to Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh next?

Did Durant have that option? What team was he going to that was going to leave him ahead of Cleveland or GS in talent? Right, just GS. That's why it's the same difference. In the end it's the same result.


Honestly answer who had the best supporting cast and do you think it was that close? Lebron never had a 2nd player even near the level of Westbrook.

Yes, clearly those Cavs teams were lacking in star talent. Clearly no one was as good as Westbrook. Why does that mean he had to go join Wade in Miami? Why couldn't he have gone to Chicago to join Rose, Noah, Deng and Gibson? Why couldn't he have gone to New York to join Amare, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler? Those teams still would have been super stacked and the most talented teams in the NBA.

You want to bash Durant because he went to Golden State instead of Boston or whatever, how is that any different than what LeBron did? Why, because Wade's ring came 4-years prior? Is that the acceptable clause of forgiveness? If Durant signed a 1+1 in OKC and then joined GS next year if they lost again, would it be cool?

If Durant is going to leave then why should he go to a team that still leaves him paling in comparison to Cleveland and Golden State? If he can leave to go to a better team, why stay on a team that is behind Cleveland and Golden State? Why is him doing that any different than what LeBron did? The hypocrisy is real.


Elite defense, spacing, versatility etc. I mean we know their skill sets and have seen them in this system before. Yes adding Durant is an adjustment but I think we have seen plenty of the rest of this core together to see their skills/fit. I agree we need to see what happens still though.

Yeah, I'm sure they'll be fine. Even if they start sluggishly like Miami did, I'm sure they'll be rolling by the time the postseason comes around just like they did. It's still just like the Miami team though, because we can still sit here and talk about not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6 and it wouldn't be a ridiculous thought.


Curry and even Klay didn't play up to their normal standards in the finals, it is one series. One of them might have had injury issues he was dealing with as well. Why do you want to ignore so much context to push Kyrie's single great performance like he is now going to just be on Currys level or better? Curry>Kyrie, Klay>JR Green>Love. None of those are even questionable to the general consensus do you disagree with any of those? Lebron has to outplay Durant and make up the difference for each one of those essentially.

But why not give credit to the great defense that Cleveland played? They didn't play below their standards by accident. Cleveland is still constructed the same way and those defensive role players will still be there to give them fits. They gave Klay fits in the 2015 Finals too. It's not about pushing Kyrie, it's about giving him credit for what he did. He just thoroughly outplayed Curry, why would it be hard to see him doing it again? Kyrie is 24-years old, he's only getting better.

Basketball isn't played in a series of one on ones, it's five on five. They don't have to outplay them one by one down the board, just as a team like they just did. If LeBron outplays Durant, which anyone would admit that he easily can do if not should be expected to, then what is the talk? If LeBron and Irving outplay KD and Curry, then what? Those are the only real direct matchups that are vital, even though Curry and Kyrie won't be guarding each other all that much.


It isn't impossible for the Cavs to win but again you keep mentioning how well they played yet it was so close. Now the Warriors might get that health back, might not have a suspension, and added Durant. Cavs need to do everything they did this year and make up for Curry/Klay improvement, Draymond playing an extra game, and adding a top 3 player. I mean Kevin Love has room to do better but with how great Lebron and Irving played asking them to upgrade to that level almost seems crazy.

Yeah, the Warriors are the favorites for sure but Cleveland has some good matchups on their side as well. Again, how is that any different than the 2010 Miami Heat that offseason? Was everyone not talking about how the Lakers would have no chance matching up with them? Kobe and Wade would go at it, Pau and Bosh would go at it and LeBron would demolish a joke of a SF like Ron Artest?

The Lakers went full RIP so that never happened, but how was the talk that offseason any different? The Heat demolished every eastern team in the playoffs 4-1 and should have done the same to Dallas. The only thing is that LeBron choked. Didn't Durant just choke in the WCF? What if Durant lays another egg like that? What if he follows in LeBron's footsteps to the max? lol.



He had a great series and even playoffs for sure but a 7 game sample size does not negate an entire career. If you really think Kyrie is better than Curry moving forward that is on you, I just definitely disagree with that idea.

Whoa whoa, slow down. I didn't say that Kyrie was better, I said that he whooped his butt in the Finals. That's true, so why should I act like woe is me for Cleveland at the PG position? Kyrie just had a breakout postseason and at the age of 24 is prime for a complete breakout season. Who's to say that he doesn't average 25 PPG this year and make All-NBA 2nd team? Not an outlandish thought in the slightest.


The game Love missed they won anyways though. I mean sure they had their issues too but it wasn't quite the same effect as Curry looking much worse than normal, Green missing a game, Bogut missing over 2, and potentially Iggy being not 100% etc. Even just Curry looking/being fully healthy probably tilts it in GS favor imo even if Love never gets hurt either.

Of course, it's easy to point to the Cavs health during the 2015 NBA Finals. If Cleveland is healthy then, maybe this GS team is a zero time champion. Then Durant would be totally OK going there, right?


I am not saying it is impossible Cleveland wins btw, plenty can happen. I am just saying they were the favorite before Durant joined (not just me, vegas agreed too as did many ppl). He simply wanted/chose to ride the coat tails for an easy ring. It is much closer to him joining Miami after the big 3 were together than him creating his own powerhouse to compete with the best like that trio did.

It's the same difference. What were the Thunders odds before he left vs what were the 2010 Cavs odds before LeBron left? Were the Heat not in the same pole position going into the season as Golden State is? You want to argue that Durant's is worse? OK, but it's the same type of maneuver. If Golden State actually won the title, then I think you could say it's clearly worse. Durant joined the team he couldn't beat, right? Well, LeBron formed a team that completely dwarfed the talent of the Celtics that he couldn't beat and they went on to crush them 4-1 in the 2nd round. Whoopty freaking do.

Saddletramp
07-22-2016, 07:10 PM
Oh great. Brick wall time. FML



And whenever KD has been hurt, the Thunder have been a .500 team and missed the playoffs when he had foot surgery.

Westbrook missed a chunk of games, too and this Western Conferemce has been brutal for years. Plus, the Thunder went out and traded for guys like Kanter and Oladipo. To compare the two teams is downright silly. CONTEXT


The Thunder won 55-games, were the 3rd seed in the west and had the 5th best record in the NBA overall. Why is that more indefensible to leave than a team that had the best record in the NBA in back to back years?

Again, they only had the best record because of Lebron. CONTEXT


You want to pretend like the 2010-11 Cavs were the same team beyond LeBron, never mind the coaching change, other roster changes and big injuries they had? You want to pretend that a teams ability should be judged on how they look without their best player that the roster is constructed around? Is there a reason why those Heat teams only broke 60-wins once in his 4-years there, despite all of that extra talent?

Not pretending anything. Without Lebron, those Cavs teams were awful, regardless of coaching (you think Mike ****ing Brown would have made a difference?), other roster chamges (he gave them 7 years bro), or injuries (who was injured that made a big difference? I honestly don't know). And the "never broke 60 wins but once" thing? Uhhhhh, because the Heat didn't have crazy depth? CONTEXT


You thinking that any team has the best record in the NBA, in back-to-back years no less, is because of one player is your issue to sort out.

Nah, the only thing I have to sort out is repeating what's been said countless times to people that either can't or won't understand simplistic things like this, apparently.


The 2008-09 Cavs weren't top 4 in offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency and rebounding differential because of one player. I understand context just fine, thanks.

He left, they were bad till he came back. Like, really, really bad. Even with a few #1 overall picks they were still historically bad. And no, you apparently don't know **** about using context. Add it to the list.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 07:10 PM
Dude it actually is KD+Curry+Green+Klay>>>>>> Lebron+Irving, as Durand did not only join Curry on GSW.

Did Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson and JR Smith drop dead? Those four are the key matchups, that's why I listed them and for the reasons I said. Still don't see how it's any different than what LeBron did in 2010, being that Wade was clearly better than anyone on Boston and nobody would have been shocked if he outplayed Kobe in a Finals.

The NBA champ Cavs are much closer in talent to this GS than that Laker team was to Miami. Need proof? Well, only old age catching up to that Laker team to the point that they didn't even make the Finals lol. Is anyone nervous about Cleveland losing to any of these eastern conference teams?

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 07:25 PM
FML

:laugh2:


Westbrook missed a chunk of games, too and this Western Conferemce has been brutal for years. Plus, the Thunder went out and traded for guys like Kanter and Oladipo. To compare the two teams is downright silly. CONTEXT

How many games did Durant and Oladipo play together in? They traded Ibaka for Oladipo, don't remember them getting him for free.

And to compare those Lakers or Celtics to these Warriors or Cavs is silly. If Durant stayed in OKC, where are they ranked going in? 3rd? Maybe even 4th, if you really like the Spurs after the addition of Pau? If LeBron stayed in Cleveland, where would they have ranked? 3rd? Maybe 2nd, if people expected Boston to fall behind due to age? OK then.


Again, they only had the best record because of Lebron. CONTEXT

And why have the Thunder been as good as they've been, the team mascot? You expecting them to win 55-games and reach game 7 of the WCF this year without Durant?


Not pretending anything. Without Lebron, those Cavs teams were awful, regardless of coaching (you think Mike ****ing Brown would have made a difference?), other roster chamges (he gave them 7 years bro), or injuries (who was injured that made a big difference? I honestly don't know). And the "never broke 60 wins but once thing? Uhhhhh, because the Heat didn't have crazy depth? CONTEXT

So you admit that those Cavs teams had crazy depth? Good, that's easy. The Cavs lacked star power but they were perfectly constructed for LeBron ball with their sharp shooting and PnR playing defensive role players. More so the 08-09 team, who won 66-games, than the 09-10 team, who were not as strong after trying to appease LeBron by bringing in Jamison and Shaq while breaking their more successful model.


Nah, the only thing I have to sort out is repeating what's been said countless times to people that either can't or won't understand simplistic things like this, apparently.

Simplistic like what? What do you think I'm talking about with LeBron? Him leaving? **** man, that's old news. I don't care that he left, I just think he way he left was weak. Same as Durant, thus the comparison.


He left, they were bad till he came back. Like, really, really bad. Even with a few #1 overall picks they were still historically bad. And no, you apparently don't know **** about using context. Add it to the list.

Why does what they did when he left have anything to do with when he was there? :crazy:

Saddletramp
07-22-2016, 07:26 PM
Did Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson and JR Smith drop dead? Those four are the key matchups, that's why I listed them and for the reasons I said. Still don't see how it's any different than what LeBron did in 2010, being that Wade was clearly better than anyone on Boston and nobody would have been shocked if he outplayed Kobe in a Finals.

The NBA champ Cavs are much closer in talent to this GS than that Laker team was to Miami. Need proof? Well, only old age catching up to that Laker team to the point that they didn't even make the Finals lol. Is anyone nervous about Cleveland losing to any of these eastern conference teams?

LOL to the point of WTF. If you don't get it by now, you won't. Waste of time.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 07:27 PM
Just curious to hear your opinion on this. What if Durant is the best player in route to a ring?

I don't get why other people aren't looking at this very realistic possibility. If LeBron didn't choke in 2011 then Dwayne Wade would have been Finals MVP. Durant can not only win Finals MVP, but he can win MVP next season and it wouldn't be shocking in the least.

Saddletramp
07-22-2016, 07:39 PM
:laugh2:



How many games did Durant and Oladipo play together in? They traded Ibaka for Oladipo, don't remember them getting him for free.

And to compare those Lakers or Celtics to these Warriors or Cavs is silly. If Durant stayed in OKC, where are they ranked going in? 3rd? Maybe even 4th, if you really like the Spurs after the addition of Pau? If LeBron stayed in Cleveland, where would they have ranked? 3rd? Maybe 2nd, if people expected Boston to fall behind due to age? OK then.



And why have the Thunder been as good as they've been, the team mascot? You expecting them to win 55-games and reach game 7 of the WCF this year without Durant?



So you admit that those Cavs teams had crazy depth? Good, that's easy. The Cavs lacked star power but they were perfectly constructed for LeBron ball with their sharp shooting and PnR playing defensive role players. More so the 08-09 team, who won 66-games, than the 09-10 team, who were not as strong after trying to appease LeBron by bringing in Jamison and Shaq while breaking their more successful model.



Simplistic like what? What do you think I'm talking about with LeBron? Him leaving? **** man, that's old news. I don't care that he left, I just think he way he left was weak. Same as Durant, thus the comparison.



Why does what they did when he left have anything to do with when he was there? :crazy:

They traded Ibaka who was becoming redundant and a diva for a friend of Durants that also a playmaker and would be a great 6th man and an upgrade over Waiters. Durant was on broad with the move.

You're missing the point. Durant quit trying to lead a team and just fell into line. He left a great team that even Iggy said had their number and should have beaten them. And again, Brick Wall, Lebron was the team, Durant had great players around him.

No, I don't expect the Thunder to win as much without Durant, but it's still a better team than what Lebron left. And again, that's not the point.

And when did I say the Cavs had crazy depth? Because the Heat didn't? Just awful, bro.

And it's still not the same comparison. But I don't have the time, inclination or battery power to repeat AGAIN what's been said COUNTLESS TIMES.

And that last question. Did you seriously just ask that? Holy **** you're worse than I thought and that's really saying something.


Go back, re-read everything that everyone is saying and try to understand exactly why you're wrong. Take as long as you'd like.

Saddletramp
07-22-2016, 07:42 PM
I don't get why other people aren't looking at this very realistic possibility. If LeBron didn't choke in 2011 then Dwayne Wade would have been Finals MVP. Durant can not only win Finals MVP, but he can win MVP next season and it wouldn't be shocking in the least.

Because Durant already joined a team with the MVP, runner up DPOY who averages close to a triple double and a record setting all time sharp shooter and they've already won without him. Even if he is their best player (assuming they stay healthy), it won't mean as much.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 08:14 PM
They traded Ibaka who was becoming redundant and a diva for a friend of Durants that also a playmaker and would be a great 6th man and an upgrade over Waiters. Durant was on broad with the move.

I know and I agree, still irrelevant as obviously not enough to convince him to stay. The Cavs brought in Larry Hughes as a FA coming off his All-Star season, traded for Antwan Jamison and signed Shaq coming off of an All-Star season. When has Victor Oladipo ever been a game changer? LeBron was on board with Miami drafting what's his face, he still left lol.


You're missing the point. Durant quit trying to lead a team and just fell into line. He left a great team that even Iggy said had their number and should have beaten them. And again, Brick Wall, Lebron was the team, Durant had great players around him.

Who said Durant is going to stop trying to lead? Did LeBron stop trying to lead and fall in line just because he joined up with Wade and Bosh in Miami? Wasn't that the narrative in 2010 too? If you're expecting for Durant to all of a sudden become less than he's been then you're in for a surprise. Iggy said some BS, the better team won just like the NBA Finals. I guess that was his roundabout way of saying that the Cavs didn't deserve their championship or whatever. Idk, it's BS though.

The Cavs had the best record in the NBA, that's not because of one guy. I'm sure that you're one of those people who constantly try to diminish everything around LeBron to make him look better, but the reality is that those guys did their part too.

It wasn't LeBron who was completely shutting down Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs. Did you know that Delonte West was the 3rd highest scorer in their game 7 against Boston? How did that happen? Who held Allen and KG to those pathetic point totals in game 7? Who held Ray Allen to 9 PPG on 33% for the entire series? Let me guess, LEBRAWWWWWN BROOOOOO.

Do you know why Tim Duncan didn't win Finals MVP in 2007? Who was it that held him to 6-17 for 14 points and 4-15 for 12 points in games 3 and 4? Who was guarding Manu when he went 0-7 for 3 points in 27 minutes in game 3? Let me guess, LEBRAWWWWWWWWN BROOOOOO.

I know it hurts to ever give credit to his teammates when you're trying to paint him as the Messiah, but it's OK to do it when they deserve it.


No, I don't expect the Thunder to win as much without Durant, but it's still a better team than what Lebron left. And again, that's not the point.

It's not the point? Then why did you try to make it? Is talent not relative to conference and the league at the time?


And when did I say the Cavs had crazy depth? Because the Heat didn't? Just awful, bro.

So the Heat didn't win 60-games more than once because they didn't have crazy depth, but the Cavs didn't win 60+ in back-to-back seasons because of crazy depth even though they weren't nearly as talented? Oh right, LEBRAWWWWWWWN BROOOOOOO.


And that last question. Did you seriously just ask that? Holy **** you're worse than I thought and that's really saying something.

Right, because that makes perfect sense. You should always judge a team in a particular season by what they do in completely different seasons. The reason the Cavs became the only back-to-back 60-win teams to not make a Finals appearance in NBA history is because they won 19-games the year after. Got it.

FOXHOUND
07-22-2016, 08:22 PM
Because Durant already joined a team with the MVP, runner up DPOY who averages close to a triple double and a record setting all time sharp shooter and they've already won without him. Even if he is their best player (assuming they stay healthy), it won't mean as much.

Most people didn't care about that when LeBron was winning MVPs and Finals MVPs in 2012 and 2013 and they wouldn't if Durant does the same. These are literally the same exact conversations and talking points people used against LeBron in 2010.

With Durant there, it's possible that Curry never wins a Finals MVP now. Who in their right mind is going to argue that Durant's don't mean as much if he's sitting there with two rings and two Finals MVPs while Curry has 3 rings and no Finals MVPs? Wade had 3 rings and 1 Finals MVP, and was even robbed of another one in 2011 by LeBron failing, and nobody cared about giving LeBron his due for his great postseasons in 2012 and 2013.

These are very similar situations and if Durant delivers like LeBron did then most people will give him his due. Only the crazies won't.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 08:29 PM
Yes, I understand all of that just fine. It's not a matter of whether they'll still be good basketball players, it's whether or not the impact of KD over Barnes truly outweighs whatever the diminished Klay + Green looks like. Curry and KD will also have to sacrifice themselves. This GS team doesn't have to be better than the 2010-11 Miami Heat, they have to be better than the 2016-17 Spurs and then Cavs in the Finals. Clearly, on paper, this GS team is more talented than them or the 2010 Heat.

Listen to the talk right now about the adjustments of Durant joining an amazing 73 win team and Champion the year before. Can Durant over Barnes make up for diminishing Curry+Klay+Green? Cmon man this is all I am pointing out, the hypocrisy now that Durant did it (from some). This team has far fewer fit issues considering not only style of play of each but the fact the majority of the core has already accomplished a ton together. Adding a new star to that isn't the same as creating a completely new 3 headed monster with 2 crappy players next to them. I agree that there are a few question marks still but we are talking about a top 3 player added onto a team argued at all time level without him.


And why does that even matter? Is there some sort of imaginary cut off where doing something like this becomes acceptable? Leaving to form a superteam that could easily run on to 3peat without surprise is the same difference. You're grasping at strawmen to try and excuse LeBron for being a trendsetter and creating an NBA where Durant has to do something like this to beat LeBron's team. Could he have stayed in OKC or gone to another team like Boston? Sure, but then obviously he's not clearly favored to win the NBA title like he is now, or like LeBron was in 2010/2014. That's why it's the same.

Why did it matter when Lebron did it? I am just pointing out there is a clear difference between the two and from a competitive stand point Durant is far and away looking the worst. There are tons of reasons why as have been shown it is just arguing with the few who refuse to acknowledge that (generally same group that was outraged when Lebron did it). It is the same to those people and different to the rest it seems.



And all of that wasn't good enough to beat the 57-win Cavs from this year, so who cares? NBA teams have a ceiling, their talent isn't just going to stack because there's only one ball and so many possessions in a game. You weren't one of those people who though that LeBron, Wade and Bosh were going to be averaging 75+ PPG by themselves back in 2010, were you? You don't just stack on Durant's stats from a totally different situation, everyone is going to be affected. Will they be better? I'm sure they will be. Will that mean they automatically win? No, just like it didn't for those Heat teams.

No I was not but I did think they had enough talent to match up with the best even without anything else really beside them at the time. I understand that there will be changes but this isn't the same as Miami having 3 new guys coming together. It is mainly adding one elite player to the best team in the league in many peoples eyes. It is quite literally can't beat em join em from Durant. People tried to say that about Miami too but it can actually be taken literally while it didn't quite fit then. This has put it into perspective for people though so that is nice.




Yes, those baseball stats are all cute and all but mean nothing in NBA games. Kyrie Irving was dominating throughout the whole playoffs. He was their best player in plenty of games and offensively was dominating GS just as much as LeBron was. And no, Gasol never had a series close to Irving's Finals in his life. I love Pau, but that kind of dominance just isn't in his blood.

Ahh someone who has to make a joke when someone provides stats instead of using it to further discussion. Gasol in his prime was very close to the player Kyrie is. I could agree Kyrie in the finals was as good as anything Gasol did though too. He wasn't the same type of player as Kyrie so he would never match the scoring but his all around game made his impact very high (as the stats and his efficiency reflect if you want to actually discuss). He wasn't better but even in in say 2010 finals to Kyrie last year it wasn't that far off given how the series went in that one (I believe team that rebounded the most won each game and he had a ton). Just like Kyrie he wasn't better than Kobe overall but he wasn't that far off either. He has a much different role than iso scorers though.


Does that whole picture include rebounding? Are you going to compare the rebounding stats between Pau Gasol and Kyrie Irving? lmao.

It is as ridiculous as using ppg to compare Kyrie to Gasol, you are correct.


Why does that matter? Dwyane Wade was already an NBA champion and Finals MVP. Dwyane Wade was one of the top 5 players in the world, if not top 3. Dwyane Wade was easily better than anyone on Boston's roster and could theoretically go toe to toe with Kobe Bryant if they met in an NBA Finals. Why would he join the Lakers or Boston, which wasn't financially possible of course, when he could just form a different team that far exceeds both in talent? Are you going to try and compare Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom to Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh next?

No, I would point out the depth/coaching advantage the lakers had and btw people argued Bynum as a top 3 center back then so I wouldn't just leave him out. I agree the top end talent Miami had the most but it wasn't this big of a gap and it wasn't adding one player to the top team in the league it was a new one to compete against them. Again a team that together as a core had already won a chaqmpionship and had a 73 win season while being talked about at an all time level. The issue is with those who call it the same while ignoring that it is definitely different.


Did Durant have that option? What team was he going to that was going to leave him ahead of Cleveland or GS in talent? Right, just GS. That's why it's the same difference. In the end it's the same result.

So you are saying the top team was so talented that the only way to have more talent was to join them even though his own team was up 3-1 at one point? I dunno about that. Clippers, Spurs adding him are more or as talented and even OKC would have left him as the only player with a top 5 guy next to him. There were teams where he could be a little more talented than them or just about the same but he chose to simply join the top team for less resistance and to stack it even more in their favor than it already was. It is different than creating a new team with 2 other guys to go at those top ones.



Yes, clearly those Cavs teams were lacking in star talent. Clearly no one was as good as Westbrook. Why does that mean he had to go join Wade in Miami? Why couldn't he have gone to Chicago to join Rose, Noah, Deng and Gibson? Why couldn't he have gone to New York to join Amare, Gallinari and Wilson Chandler? Those teams still would have been super stacked and the most talented teams in the NBA.

Ummm NY wasn't near the level of those top teams. Chicago actually was a solid option but there was some bad blood with Noah I think and the lack of shooting makes me believe it also was a worse option than the top teams still. These options aren't even remotely as appealing as the Clippers/Spurs btw and arguably similar to Durant just staying in OKC comparitively so you can again see there are tons of differences.


You want to bash Durant because he went to Golden State instead of Boston or whatever, how is that any different than what LeBron did? Why, because Wade's ring came 4-years prior? Is that the acceptable clause of forgiveness? If Durant signed a 1+1 in OKC and then joined GS next year if they lost again, would it be cool?

Because that Heat team wasn't winning titles without Lebron, he is what put the talent over the top. Golden State has already done this without him, he is hopping along for the ride. If Durant stayed in OKC they could have won a title this year, I think they would have been a top 4 contender just like last year (and similar to Cleveland in that sense).


If Durant is going to leave then why should he go to a team that still leaves him paling in comparison to Cleveland and Golden State? If he can leave to go to a better team, why stay on a team that is behind Cleveland and Golden State? Why is him doing that any different than what LeBron did? The hypocrisy is real.

There were tons of options close to Cleveland's level including OKC. Many had them on similar levels throughout the year. I did think Cleveland had a slight advantage due to match ups but still it was very close. I am just pointing out how different the situations are and the hypocrisy from those saying they are the same. I have not burned a Durant jersey, said his legacy is ruined forever, hated him so much I let it affect my thoughts/actions etc just like I didn't with Lebron. Some people are taking much different stances now that it is Durant doing it though which is pretty funny. I always felt like people who hated Lebron propped him up big time in comparisons as loyal competitor mentally strong etc. in conversations and that was just ripped away with his move.



Yeah, I'm sure they'll be fine. Even if they start sluggishly like Miami did, I'm sure they'll be rolling by the time the postseason comes around just like they did. It's still just like the Miami team though, because we can still sit here and talk about not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6 and it wouldn't be a ridiculous thought.

The amount of weight people have put on a pep rally is insane, not that you have a ton I just can't believe it is still mentioned. I thought GS had a chance for plenty of titles as well even without Durant. He saw that and hopped along for the ride, that is the difference. You are adding a Durant like player to a team with that top level potential in place already.



But why not give credit to the great defense that Cleveland played? They didn't play below their standards by accident. Cleveland is still constructed the same way and those defensive role players will still be there to give them fits. They gave Klay fits in the 2015 Finals too. It's not about pushing Kyrie, it's about giving him credit for what he did. He just thoroughly outplayed Curry, why would it be hard to see him doing it again? Kyrie is 24-years old, he's only getting better.

Cleveland played great but we can't ignore what happened to those players either is all I am saying. We know that each team has had a disadvantage compared to each other the last two years and that team lost. We know that GS was favored to win next year and also was the first team in history to 73 wins (which might have been the cause of some of their issues honestly). We know that Durant saw that potential and left a team that had a 3-1 lead on them this year to join them.

On top of that we need to also realize the sample size, that is very important. He played great but that doesn't change who the better players are etc. He just managed to go off in the finals and should get his credit for that accomplishment. It isn't necessarily his new floor or anything though.


Basketball isn't played in a series of one on ones, it's five on five. They don't have to outplay them one by one down the board, just as a team like they just did. If LeBron outplays Durant, which anyone would admit that he easily can do if not should be expected to, then what is the talk? If LeBron and Irving outplay KD and Curry, then what? Those are the only real direct matchups that are vital, even though Curry and Kyrie won't be guarding each other all that much.

I agree but the point is the advantage is so far in favor of GS. They already had the advantage to many and added a top 3 player on top of that. If Lebron and Kyrie outplay Curry/Durant (which means going even above the level of this finals imo especially considering circumstances) then they still have Green/Klay compared to Love/TT (win for GS). They have Iggy, Zaza, Livingston to JR, Frye?, Shump?,Dunleavy? they win again. It still could very easily not be enough due to the overall talent on GS which is what happens when the top team adds a top 3 player. It is just a huge huge advantage at this point.



Yeah, the Warriors are the favorites for sure but Cleveland has some good matchups on their side as well. Again, how is that any different than the 2010 Miami Heat that offseason? Was everyone not talking about how the Lakers would have no chance matching up with them? Kobe and Wade would go at it, Pau and Bosh would go at it and LeBron would demolish a joke of a SF like Ron Artest?

Everyone before finals and until game 5 talked about the Warriors advantage in match ups. If Lebron weren't in Miami would they have still been considered favorites with just Wade/Bosh? GS was, that is the difference. Lebron helped be the force that pushed them from good to arguably the best team at the time. Durant just joined the team already up there.


The Lakers went full RIP so that never happened, but how was the talk that offseason any different? The Heat demolished every eastern team in the playoffs 4-1 and should have done the same to Dallas. The only thing is that LeBron choked. Didn't Durant just choke in the WCF? What if Durant lays another egg like that? What if he follows in LeBron's footsteps to the max? lol.

See last post.





Whoa whoa, slow down. I didn't say that Kyrie was better, I said that he whooped his butt in the Finals. That's true, so why should I act like woe is me for Cleveland at the PG position? Kyrie just had a breakout postseason and at the age of 24 is prime for a complete breakout season. Who's to say that he doesn't average 25 PPG this year and make All-NBA 2nd team? Not an outlandish thought in the slightest.

Who is to say he continues to dominate like that every year either? Given his past that wouldn't be outlandish to say he comes back to earth a little either. I am saying remember it is a very short time frame you are relying on when talking about him and that matters.




Of course, it's easy to point to the Cavs health during the 2015 NBA Finals. If Cleveland is healthy then, maybe this GS team is a zero time champion. Then Durant would be totally OK going there, right?

I still think given last year it would have been pretty bad. It would have made it look a little better sure but if everyone was the same talent level I think plenty would still point this all out.


It's the same difference. What were the Thunders odds before he left vs what were the 2010 Cavs odds before LeBron left? Were the Heat not in the same pole position going into the season as Golden State is? You want to argue that Durant's is worse? OK, but it's the same type of maneuver. If Golden State actually won the title, then I think you could say it's clearly worse. Durant joined the team he couldn't beat, right? Well, LeBron formed a team that completely dwarfed the talent of the Celtics that he couldn't beat and they went on to crush them 4-1 in the 2nd round. Whoopty freaking do.

GS core has won a title together and also had the all time best RS while being 1 game shy of a repeat. It is not the same is the main point being made by people (mostly to the Lebron haters) and it is funny because they were the ones doing the bashing before. The way Miami joined and dwarfed talent left things much closer than what Durant/GS did and everything else mentioned makes it worse as well. Yes Lebron arguably joined a better situation than he should have but it wasn't nearly like this in comparison for many reasons. It was close and given his former team and the options out there it made sense which wasn't nearly to the extent of just joining and potentially all time great team already in place.

I get saying Lebron made a chump move (I think it was way overblown but semi agree with it) but this is drastically further than he took it and the same people whining before are arguing for it now.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 08:34 PM
if Durant delivers like LeBron did then most people will give him his due. Only the crazies won't.

I agree and I think if what he did isn't as impressive as what Lebron did many will point that out too when people say rings. Only the crazies won't agree.

Let's remember how Lebron played/carried those Heat teams and then compare what Durant does on the Warriors to that. I totally agree we have to wait and see now to decide where his legacy goes. I personally find it hard to see him dominating in the same way comparatively but it is possible. The weird thing to me is how that would probably end up hurting Curry's legacy in a sense if that happened.

ewing
07-22-2016, 09:35 PM
The only issue I have with Durant is, fans went after LeBron like he kicked their child when he left Cleveland and had to go be the man in Miami, but with better help this time around. Durant left a contender to join a team that doesn't need him to even be there to win it all. He should be getting crucified. Otherwise, most of you are flat out hypocrites.

I could care less what he does. His rings with GS won't feel as valid to me personally, but any of you here, or around the world, are free to gauge them, and his legacy, however you like.

It can't be explained to me, and make any sense, that what Durant did is not far worse than whatever you hold against LeBron for doing.

All that said, Durant did what is best for him in his mind. I can live with that.

you Sir are the hypocrite. you have defended Bron taking the easiest path possible every step of the way. Now KD does it and it will cheapen his success in your eyes. Personally, i think they are both *****es.

Bostonjorge
07-22-2016, 09:49 PM
I agree and I think if what he did isn't as impressive as what Lebron did many will point that out too when people say rings. Only the crazies won't agree.

Let's remember how Lebron played/carried those Heat teams and then compare what Durant does on the Warriors to that. I totally agree we have to wait and see now to decide where his legacy goes. I personally find it hard to see him dominating in the same way comparatively but it is possible. The weird thing to me is how that would probably end up hurting Curry's legacy in a sense if that happened.

Lebron carried the heat against OKc? So as long as curry and klay don't average what Wade and bosh averaged against Okc then only the crazies would argue Durant actually had some kind of help? Or am I crazy to think Wade and bosh and the others all played at the highest level to win a title?

Chronz
07-22-2016, 10:07 PM
Why do you say that, when going into the offseason the Warriors weren't even the team to beat?
Thats sort of like saying, why wouldn't I if at the start of the playoffs and then the actual Finals, Warriors were the team to beat? This argument is essentially asking me to ignore the 73 wins GS just racked up and I cant do that.


Did you already forget that Cleveland won the championship while LeBron and Irving had arguably the most dominant two man performance in Finals history?

Would love to see that argument but I think the fact that it went 7 is going to make it a hard sell. Especially with how porous Kyrie was on both ends for the first 4 games overall and how passive Bron was for much of the start of the series. I look at Shaq completely dominating the DPOY and the alleged MVP in 5 games after sweeping much of the conference. Its really hard to top that right off my head, Kobe was at least above a Kyrie level of play, especially since he actually put forth a ton of effort in the regular season vs Kyrie who slept walked on 1 end much of the year.



LeBron couldn't beat the teams that lost to the Lakers in the Finals, so he proceeded to create a team in Miami that completely dwarfed the Lakers in talent. Durant joined the team that lost to the Cavs in the Finals, but the talent level is still similar.

I disagree, he created a new power that could contend with theirs. I dont see how they dwarfed the Lakers in talent, championship talent matters more than who can score the most on their own squads.


Now it will be KD and Curry vs LeBron and Irving. Plus Klay, Green and Livingston vs Love, Thompson and JR.

It took a suspension and Klay and Curry to play far below their capabilities for Cleveland to squeeze out a win, and in response, GS added a player who quite honestly could be the best player in the league, well at least if he wants it. I have no idea what kind of role he will have in GS but as a competitor, I know he lacks the cojones to create his own power ala Bron.


How can you say that's any different than what LeBron did in Miami? Why, because his choking in 2011 and them taking time to mesh prevented them from reaching their ceiling? They went to 4 straight Finals and should have been one of the very few teams in NBA history to 3 peat. They set plenty of records, none which were surprising from day one.

Because Miami doesn't win a title without Bron, Miami doesn't break the RS record without Bron. The intelligent fans knew that Wade was on the decline and had overlapping skills with Bron. Bosh was no longer interested in maintaining his frame and loathed the post up game. CONTEXT is why its different.


Same ole double standards talk for LeBron to prop him up lol. Durant is joining LeBron at his own game.
There is no double standard. Bron never dick rode a historic core that had already won, he CARRIED a cast to the point where the legend of the game admitted he just witnessed one of the greatest overall playoff runs of their time.
Hate to break the news to you but Bron doesn't need any favors here, the facts speak louder than your unsubstantiated claims.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 10:14 PM
Sorry but these are the exact same things we heard about Lebron and the Decision. Lebron has rings and no one cares anymore. They stopped caring before he went back and won one in Cleveland. :shrug:
Trolls always gon troll, facts speak louder than opinions.

FACTS are that the Heat WITH Bron are maybe in contention with the historic core of the Warriors. That same core, just added a LeBron caliber player. In terms of upgrading a contender, this is unprecedented. Im sorry but the fact that they are "similar" doesn't offset the drastic difference in talent they joined/departed. Only those who dont give a **** about context will view them in the same light.

On a separate note, you cant disagree that Durant has looked soft of late.

mngopher35
07-22-2016, 10:14 PM
Lebron carried the heat against OKc? So as long as curry and klay don't average what Wade and bosh averaged against Okc then only the crazies would argue Durant actually had some kind of help? Or am I crazy to think Wade and bosh and the others all played at the highest level to win a title?

Well it depends what you are arguing. I said played/carried to try and imply what I meant easier, first option/best player/takes defensive attention etc. If you disagree with that read below. If you just don't like that word carried because he finally had good help while in that role then I apologize I wasn't trying to imply that he didn't. Just that he was the guy taking over for them. I also don't only mean statistically but overall impact as well.

First of all remember that Bosh got injured that post season so he missed part of Boston series too. In that series they were down 2-3 and it was Lebron who took over with an all time great performance game 6 while being that first option and main focus of the defense. Against OKC he lead his team in pts, reb, assists while arguably being one of if not the top defenders due to his versatility. While it was Battier on Durant much of this series Lebron was always a pseudo anchor for them in their trapping style and when things got tight he did normally switch to take on the toughest opponent. If Durant has performances like that while dominating in the same fashion under similar pressure I think he will get similar credit. I just find it hard given the situation that it all plays out like that given Curry/Draymond/Klay next to him with other good role players. It could though so gotta wait and see.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 10:23 PM
But he went as the number 1. Self proclaimed king. Mr I'm the best in the league. Went to team up with the best sg in the league!!! Plus a top 4 pf. Stop it. You're obviously to emotionally invested with you're man crush on Lebron.

Not sure if it was you or Chronz. You guys IMO run the NBA forum (both being top notch posters) said you loved him when others were hating.

Then when Wade started his decline he ran home. To a younger tram with a bigger window. He essentially ensures he's on the easiest path year in and year out. 1 year contract king!! If I don't get my way I leave. Smh.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

The best SG in the league was losing in R.1 and the alleged top-4 PF had quit on his team, basically forfeiting his playoff chances for the sake of a new contract. That same PF admitted he no longer wanted to play at the weight that sparked his career high #'s. When Bron hooked up with Miami there were SERIOUS holes in the roster that were made worse by the injuries to Haslem and Miller. With Miami the questions were, whos going to start at PG+C for them. With GS, its a question of just how many stars they should trot out at all times. They could conceivably play with at least 2 on the court at all times depending on how Kerr wants to approach the RS.

Thats ****ing nuts man, Bron was joining a declining Wade who proved to be the cripple outside 1 year and Bosh who was never that great to begin with and brought out the best 2-way play of his career. Even then, Bosh was injured in the playoffs that 1 year.

So yeah, if all that **** happens to Durant, like say Curry and Draymond go down, then yeah, I can see KD carrying a load so impressive that people forgive and forget. Honestly tho, I just think they are gonna rampage through the league and win with relative ease. I foresee a Moses to Philly type of scenario, my only hope relies in Utah and LAC. Nobody else stands a chance IMO.

Chronz
07-22-2016, 10:39 PM
Just curious to hear your opinion on this. What if Durant is the best player in route to a ring?

Aren't we all expecting that to be the case? I think the scariest proposition is if he and Curry just go nova and decimate the league as equals we've never seen together. They are literally the last 2 guys to win the the MVP for the last 3 years. This isn't a superstar creating a "super team", this is a superstar JOINING a superteam.

I fully expect him to win the championship next year and by his talent alone, hes in the running for the best player of his own team. I dont think it will help his legacy as some of you think, having a shitload of rings doesn't make Russell the best.

Saddletramp
07-23-2016, 02:00 AM
I know and I agree, still irrelevant as obviously not enough to convince him to stay. The Cavs brought in Larry Hughes as a FA coming off his All-Star season, traded for Antwan Jamison and signed Shaq coming off of an All-Star season. When has Victor Oladipo ever been a game changer? LeBron was on board with Miami drafting what's his face, he still left lol.



Who said Durant is going to stop trying to lead? Did LeBron stop trying to lead and fall in line just because he joined up with Wade and Bosh in Miami? Wasn't that the narrative in 2010 too? If you're expecting for Durant to all of a sudden become less than he's been then you're in for a surprise. Iggy said some BS, the better team won just like the NBA Finals. I guess that was his roundabout way of saying that the Cavs didn't deserve their championship or whatever. Idk, it's BS though.

The Cavs had the best record in the NBA, that's not because of one guy. I'm sure that you're one of those people who constantly try to diminish everything around LeBron to make him look better, but the reality is that those guys did their part too.

It wasn't LeBron who was completely shutting down Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett in the playoffs. Did you know that Delonte West was the 3rd highest scorer in their game 7 against Boston? How did that happen? Who held Allen and KG to those pathetic point totals in game 7? Who held Ray Allen to 9 PPG on 33% for the entire series? Let me guess, LEBRAWWWWWN BROOOOOO.

Do you know why Tim Duncan didn't win Finals MVP in 2007? Who was it that held him to 6-17 for 14 points and 4-15 for 12 points in games 3 and 4? Who was guarding Manu when he went 0-7 for 3 points in 27 minutes in game 3? Let me guess, LEBRAWWWWWWWWN BROOOOOO.

I know it hurts to ever give credit to his teammates when you're trying to paint him as the Messiah, but it's OK to do it when they deserve it.



It's not the point? Then why did you try to make it? Is talent not relative to conference and the league at the time?



So the Heat didn't win 60-games more than once because they didn't have crazy depth, but the Cavs didn't win 60+ in back-to-back seasons because of crazy depth even though they weren't nearly as talented? Oh right, LEBRAWWWWWWWN BROOOOOOO.



Right, because that makes perfect sense. You should always judge a team in a particular season by what they do in completely different seasons. The reason the Cavs became the only back-to-back 60-win teams to not make a Finals appearance in NBA history is because they won 19-games the year after. Got it.





Most people didn't care about that when LeBron was winning MVPs and Finals MVPs in 2012 and 2013 and they wouldn't if Durant does the same. These are literally the same exact conversations and talking points people used against LeBron in 2010.

With Durant there, it's possible that Curry never wins a Finals MVP now. Who in their right mind is going to argue that Durant's don't mean as much if he's sitting there with two rings and two Finals MVPs while Curry has 3 rings and no Finals MVPs? Wade had 3 rings and 1 Finals MVP, and was even robbed of another one in 2011 by LeBron failing, and nobody cared about giving LeBron his due for his great postseasons in 2012 and 2013.

These are very similar situations and if Durant delivers like LeBron did then most people will give him his due. Only the crazies won't.

Jesus ****ing Christ.

lol, please
07-23-2016, 04:53 AM
Obviously as fans we're always going to debate "legacy" but I felt from a players perspective he really put it in context. At the end of the day if the numbers are there, the rings are there, and he's made the moves he wanted for him and his fam what can anybody really say? That goes for him, Bron, anybody......
-----------------

“I just felt that this is where I should’ve been, where I should be, and I made the decision. And I’ll live with it. Because obviously, by making this decision, like Charles Barkley said, my legacy has dipped, I guess,” Durant told The Vertical after Wednesday’s U.S. Men’s Olympic team practice, with a hint of snark. “I don’t even know what ‘your legacy’ means. I look at legacy and I associate that with family.

“As a basketball player, what I’ve done, when I’m done playing, look at what I did. And ask yourself how you feel about it. The numbers are going to be there. Everything I’ve done, you’re going to see it. No matter if I play well or fall off, it’s your decision to tell me what my legacy is to you. That’s how it is now. Individually, what do you think Michael Jordan’s legacy is about, LeBron James’ legacy is about? That’s an individual, personal thing. I can’t control that.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-kevin-durant-isnt-worried-about-his-legacy-042210602.html

Well said by KD. The man is pure class and a humble guy.

He's right.

And yet despite that, the way fans are today, the way the game is talked about today, when it's all said and done, his legacy will actually be greater, when they look back at how Run CKD won championships together.

McAllen Tx
07-23-2016, 06:53 AM
That's not a super team? Paul JJ KD Griffin & Paul?

You guys are crazy. Yes it was a cop out move but to say Bron wasn't a cop out move is ludacris.

Nobody even mentions LA going to the Spurs which made them favorites on paper. The Warriors won the year before to a depleted Cav's team. Lost to a healthy super team this year with Bron, Irving and love.

So Bron can put super teams together whenever he feels the league is catching up. Teammates are declining. The Bron nut huggers are blinded by the face it's no more cake walk. No more favorites to win. As someone stated before Bron oped the door, Durant folloewd.

My apologies if any typos. I'm at work unloading cars off trains. But I can PSD without crashing!!!

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk
Yes the Clippers would've been a super team if they added KD.

Difference being ( and no disrespect to the Clippers ) Clippers aren't viewed as winners. They aren't favorites. They are going backwards right now.

If KD would've signed with the Clippers and they would've won everyone would be saying they won BECAUSE of KD. He lead them to the ship.

As far as LA going to SA, I admit I didn't say much about it cause I don't hold LA to a higher standard as I do KD. LA is not a 1st option on a championship team.

Also, I hope you don't think Im an LBJ fan and not think I didn't call him out for going to Miami cause I did. Weak *** move. But IMO KDs was way weaker. Im not defending LBJ by no means.

IMO LBJs & KDs situation were both weak but totally different. KD is a total *****. Or am I not allowed to have my own opinion and I should share yours?

McAllen Tx
07-23-2016, 07:07 AM
So to sum up this thread:

LeBron is a *****
Durant is a bigger *****

+1

b@llhog24
07-23-2016, 02:31 PM
I don't get why other people aren't looking at this very realistic possibility. If LeBron didn't choke in 2011 then Dwayne Wade would have been Finals MVP. Durant can not only win Finals MVP, but he can win MVP next season and it wouldn't be shocking in the least.

Yea. I've always felt as if Durant is the better talent so I'm not sure why people expect Curry to be the unanimous number 1. I actually expect Currys per game averages to go down.


Aren't we all expecting that to be the case? I think the scariest proposition is if he and Curry just go nova and decimate the league as equals we've never seen together. They are literally the last 2 guys to win the the MVP for the last 3 years. This isn't a superstar creating a "super team", this is a superstar JOINING a superteam.

I fully expect him to win the championship next year and by his talent alone, hes in the running for the best player of his own team. I dont think it will help his legacy as some of you think, having a shitload of rings doesn't make Russell the best.

So how would that affect your rankings? Obviously if one of the big 4 gets injured then he easily goes up. But assuming they don't and he just clearly outplays Curry.

FOXHOUND
07-23-2016, 05:36 PM
Listen to the talk right now about the adjustments of Durant joining an amazing 73 win team and Champion the year before. Can Durant over Barnes make up for diminishing Curry+Klay+Green? Cmon man this is all I am pointing out, the hypocrisy now that Durant did it (from some). This team has far fewer fit issues considering not only style of play of each but the fact the majority of the core has already accomplished a ton together. Adding a new star to that isn't the same as creating a completely new 3 headed monster with 2 crappy players next to them. I agree that there are a few question marks still but we are talking about a top 3 player added onto a team argued at all time level without him.

There's also the mindset of don't fit what isn't broke though. Adding a player of Durant's caliber is going to completely change what they do. They're going to have to start from scratch in camp and greatly adjust everything they do, but of course the GS players existing chemistry is a big bonus. I don't think anyone doubts that this GS is more talented than that Heat team, but I find talent to be relevant to the competition.


Why did it matter when Lebron did it? I am just pointing out there is a clear difference between the two and from a competitive stand point Durant is far and away looking the worst. There are tons of reasons why as have been shown it is just arguing with the few who refuse to acknowledge that (generally same group that was outraged when Lebron did it). It is the same to those people and different to the rest it seems.

I think it matters for both from purely a competitive standpoint. Just simply in the sense that Durant should want to beat Curry, not join him and the same for LeBron with Wade back then. But beyond that, yeah obviously both maximized their winning opportunity in free agency. Right now Golden State is the favorites at 2/3 odds (66%), with defending champ Cavs at 7/2 (22%). In the 2010-11 offseason Miami was favored to win it all at 9/5 (55%), with defending champ Lakers at 3/1 (33%). http://bleacherreport.com/articles/421131-nba-2010-11-oddsmaker-who-will-win-the-nba-championship-next-season

I mean, is 11% really all THAT different? At the time, plenty of people were talking about that Heat team legitimately being able to win 6 rings. The same kind of talk for this GS team is applicable. I don't see why people are retroactively trying to make it seem like it's an insane difference. Are there different circumstances? Of course, but in the end both teams at that offseason looked like they would go on to win the next 3-6 NBA championships. We know how Miami worked out, let's see how GS fares.



No I was not but I did think they had enough talent to match up with the best even without anything else really beside them at the time. I understand that there will be changes but this isn't the same as Miami having 3 new guys coming together. It is mainly adding one elite player to the best team in the league in many peoples eyes. It is quite literally can't beat em join em from Durant. People tried to say that about Miami too but it can actually be taken literally while it didn't quite fit then. This has put it into perspective for people though so that is nice.

Sure, it's more literal in the, if you can't beat them join them, sense. I don't see how you can ignore the different circumstances though. First, going to the Lakers or Celtics wasn't a financial possibility for LeBron. Second, who cares how they came about when the end result is the same? It's impossible to make a point for point comparison with a ton of situational things being different, but in the end both put themselves in a position where everyone was thinking they were going to pull a Russell Celtics.


Ahh someone who has to make a joke when someone provides stats instead of using it to further discussion. Gasol in his prime was very close to the player Kyrie is. I could agree Kyrie in the finals was as good as anything Gasol did though too. He wasn't the same type of player as Kyrie so he would never match the scoring but his all around game made his impact very high (as the stats and his efficiency reflect if you want to actually discuss). He wasn't better but even in in say 2010 finals to Kyrie last year it wasn't that far off given how the series went in that one (I believe team that rebounded the most won each game and he had a ton). Just like Kyrie he wasn't better than Kobe overall but he wasn't that far off either. He has a much different role than iso scorers though.

Apologies for my stupid joke. :D

I wasn't pooping on Pau, but the reality is that he never dominated a series like Kyrie just did. But you're right, they are very different players. Pau is a tremendous all around support guy where as Kyrie is just primarily a scorer. The thing is that Kyrie is legitimately one of the best scorers in the NBA and he was taking over and dominating in those games with LeBron. Rebounding is great, but it will never be as valuable as scoring.

There is of course the vast difference in position and role. Pau being a big has to add rebounding and rim defense, where as obviously that's irrelevant for Kyrie. It's not like Pau was that great a defender or anything either. Awesome rebounder for sure, though. But yeah, only duo in Finals history to score 40 points together in the same game. Kobe and Pau never dominated a game like that together at any point, it's just not in Pau to dominate like that. LeBron and Kyrie were getting their Durant and WB on, dominating on that level together.


It is as ridiculous as using ppg to compare Kyrie to Gasol, you are correct.

I meant it as scoring is a universal thing. Any of the five positions can be expected to score at the same rate, it makes no difference. You can't compare rebounding between a big and a guard, it's just apples and oranges. Passing they're similar, both secondary passers to their de facto PG's in Kobe and LeBron and similar production there. The Cavs are an elite rebounding team, so obviously nothing that Kyrie does there hurts them.


No, I would point out the depth/coaching advantage the lakers had and btw people argued Bynum as a top 3 center back then so I wouldn't just leave him out. I agree the top end talent Miami had the most but it wasn't this big of a gap and it wasn't adding one player to the top team in the league it was a new one to compete against them. Again a team that together as a core had already won a chaqmpionship and had a 73 win season while being talked about at an all time level. The issue is with those who call it the same while ignoring that it is definitely different.

Ugh, Bynum. He was so ridiculously overrated, especially during those Finals runs since he was playing on one leg every postseason. He averaged 7 points and 5 boards in 24 MPG during the 2010 Finals. He was never that big a factor, and really he just greatly benefitted from playing with Kobe and Pau. So did Odom, but at least he did stuff in 08 and 09. Odom was trash in the 10 Finals, though.

How can you deny the talent and depth of this Cavs team? They have Kevin Love, who was 2nd team All-NBA before joining them, chilling in a role player role during the Finals. They took Richard Jefferson and threw him into the starting lineup and he was fantastic. They had Mo Williams undressed even though he was capable of doing a solid job starting for Kyrie in the beginning of the year. Are we really going to sit here and act like guys like Ron Artest, Derek Fisher, Shannon Brown and Jordan Farmar were special by any means? Sasha Vujacic? Luke Walton? How far are we going to go?


So you are saying the top team was so talented that the only way to have more talent was to join them even though his own team was up 3-1 at one point? I dunno about that. Clippers, Spurs adding him are more or as talented and even OKC would have left him as the only player with a top 5 guy next to him. There were teams where he could be a little more talented than them or just about the same but he chose to simply join the top team for less resistance and to stack it even more in their favor than it already was. It is different than creating a new team with 2 other guys to go at those top ones.

If the argument is that the Cavs were fortunate for reasons A, B and C because Golden State was up 3-1, why do we over credit OKC for being up 3-1 when they ultimately lost? The Clippers would have had to trade Griffin or Jordan for zero and renounce every FA to afford Durant, which would leave them with a roster of 8+ vet min players. Is that great? The Spurs would have also had to gut their team a bit and would have had to force Kawhi or KD to start and heavily play PF. Again, great?

There was no situation to pull a Miami for Durant. Maybe if there was another FA of his caliber and they both went to Boston, but sorry no way does Durant-Horford-Thomas and good role players cut it when you have to deal with the Cavs and Warriors. He would still would have went into the season as the 3rd favorite, at best, just like if he stayed in OKC.

When the Cavs entered the 2009-10 season they were actually tied favorites with the Lakers for the championship. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Updated-odds-to-win-2010-championship-following-?urn=nba,174375

Before he left in FA, they were being slotted as 2nd or 3rd favorites behind LA and Boston. Still fail to see how that's any different than Durant in OKC, unless you continue to ignore the overall landscape differences in the NBA in 2010 vs 2016 and the western conference vs the eastern conference in both years. LeBron had to battle Boston and Orlando going in, Durant had to battle GS and SA plus the Clippers with their 3 All-NBA players. Why keep pointing to Westbrook and ignore how much more ridiculously talented those teams he has to compete against are?


Ummm NY wasn't near the level of those top teams. Chicago actually was a solid option but there was some bad blood with Noah I think and the lack of shooting makes me believe it also was a worse option than the top teams still. These options aren't even remotely as appealing as the Clippers/Spurs btw and arguably similar to Durant just staying in OKC comparitively so you can again see there are tons of differences.

NY with LeBron? Totally different. Amare was in his prime and coming off a year where he helped Phoenix battle the Lakers in the WCF to game 6 with old Steve Nash. LeBron and Amare running PnRs in Pringles system, plus having insane size, athletic and floor spacing mismatches with Chandler at SG and Gallinari at PF, would have been devastating. I think Chicago was a better option, but that team could have been ridiculous. LeBron was also not down with playing PF yet and he would have had to do that in NY for a good amount.

Chicago ended up getting Carlos Boozer as their big FA and went on to win 60+ games while Rose won MVP. That team was more than ripe to completely dominate with LeBron. LeBron and Noah? That's a weak excuse. How were their spats any different than what Draymond Green just did the entire WCF, other than him going to kiss Durant's *** right after because he was recruiting him? LeBron, Rose and Noah would have been an insanely dominate trio.

Of course, with the power of hindsight, the health of Amare and Rose going forward would have been a disaster for LeBron. Amare had a history, so that was a more viable reason. And, of course, neither team was as good as just joining up with Wade and Bosh. That's why he did it.


Because that Heat team wasn't winning titles without Lebron, he is what put the talent over the top. Golden State has already done this without him, he is hopping along for the ride. If Durant stayed in OKC they could have won a title this year, I think they would have been a top 4 contender just like last year (and similar to Cleveland in that sense).

How do you know what that Heat team would have done? LeBron prevented them from winning a title in 2011. Who's to say that Wade and Bosh + another FA or two instead of LeBron couldn't have won? I mean, if LeBron went to Chicago, of course it's probably them in the Finals instead but who knows? It's a big hypothetical all around.

GS won two years ago, against a Cavs team with major injuries that had plenty of people saying it wasn't legit for that reason. Now they lost, further validating those naysayers. I don't think you can say he's hopping along for the ride when they didn't even win the championship this year.


There were tons of options close to Cleveland's level including OKC. Many had them on similar levels throughout the year. I did think Cleveland had a slight advantage due to match ups but still it was very close. I am just pointing out how different the situations are and the hypocrisy from those saying they are the same. I have not burned a Durant jersey, said his legacy is ruined forever, hated him so much I let it affect my thoughts/actions etc just like I didn't with Lebron. Some people are taking much different stances now that it is Durant doing it though which is pretty funny. I always felt like people who hated Lebron propped him up big time in comparisons as loyal competitor mentally strong etc. in conversations and that was just ripped away with his move.

I agree that he should have stayed in OKC, but that would have left him as the 3rd or 4th favorite going in so it is what it is. The only way for him to go to favorite was going to GS, that's why he did. I agree that anyone defending Durant if they didn't like what LeBron did is a total crock. There are differences in many ways, but at the core of the decision it's the same mindset. Let me team up with a top 3 player and form a super team that dwarfs the NBA so that we can win a ton of championships.


The amount of weight people have put on a pep rally is insane, not that you have a ton I just can't believe it is still mentioned. I thought GS had a chance for plenty of titles as well even without Durant. He saw that and hopped along for the ride, that is the difference. You are adding a Durant like player to a team with that top level potential in place already.

I like referencing the pep rally because I think it's hilarious and hope is remains the most ridiculous thing I ever see in NBA history. :laugh2:

But I was really just talking about the fact that that Heat team was being looked at as if they would win the next 3-6 championships. Everyone was talking about how many championships they were going to win. Going the not 1, not 2 route was just a fun way of saying it. :D

I think that narrative for GS took a major blow when they lost to Cleveland. They were going to lose Bogut by sources who claimed that GS was fed up with his health and that he wanted a contract extension or to be traded. They were likely going to lose all those same role players, and even if not then age becomes a factor. Barbosa is 34, Iggy himself is 32 and turning 33 in January, Livingston turns 31 in September. It's very possible that those key role players could have fell off after a couple of long seasons and just father time doing his part. It was going to be very difficult for them to match the level of play of that 73-win season. Especially when looking at those age numbers going forward in dynasty talk.

Still great and fair bet to win it all, but they lost the right to that all-time team talk when Cleveland ripped it out of their hands. They could have regained that without Durant, but who knows if they would have beaten Cleveland.


Cleveland played great but we can't ignore what happened to those players either is all I am saying. We know that each team has had a disadvantage compared to each other the last two years and that team lost. We know that GS was favored to win next year and also was the first team in history to 73 wins (which might have been the cause of some of their issues honestly). We know that Durant saw that potential and left a team that had a 3-1 lead on them this year to join them.

For sure, but for me I like to give credit to the victors. After the 2015 season, I respected GS and denied the people who said they only won because of Cleveland's injuries. By the same token, I give Cleveland respect for winning because they deserve it. They earned it and injuries are just part of the game.

On Draymond Green's behalf, he has no one to blame for himself for his pathetic conduct. If we're talking that fair talk, he could have easily been suspended during the WCF because he kept on tripping people and did other crap when he was 1 flagrant away. Zero sympathy for that suspension and GS is fortunate that the NBA let him get away with as much garbage as they did.


On top of that we need to also realize the sample size, that is very important. He played great but that doesn't change who the better players are etc. He just managed to go off in the finals and should get his credit for that accomplishment. It isn't necessarily his new floor or anything though.

He averaged 25 PPG for the entire postseason and is 24-years old. He's been very good the past few years but he is ripe to take a jump because he has another level he can get to. We saw it during the postseason, I wouldn't doubt him doing it next year. He wasn't a #1 pick by accident, ya know?


I agree but the point is the advantage is so far in favor of GS. They already had the advantage to many and added a top 3 player on top of that. If Lebron and Kyrie outplay Curry/Durant (which means going even above the level of this finals imo especially considering circumstances) then they still have Green/Klay compared to Love/TT (win for GS). They have Iggy, Zaza, Livingston to JR, Frye?, Shump?,Dunleavy? they win again. It still could very easily not be enough due to the overall talent on GS which is what happens when the top team adds a top 3 player. It is just a huge huge advantage at this point.

That's true, but to be fair to Cleveland we have to see what Klay and Green look like in the post Durant world. Kevin Love went from 25-14-4 beast to what he is now, so let's see what they look like. That comparison may be a lot closer than we think by the time the NBA Finals rolls around.

But again, that talk just reminds me of 2010 Heat. The matchups, the overwhelming talent, how is anyone going to compete with them, etc. Dallas did it and they were far more overmatched in talent than Cleveland will ever be vs GS. I'm not going to write off Cleveland yet, just like I didn't write off the Lakers in 2010. The Lakers wrote themselves off, though lmao.



Everyone before finals and until game 5 talked about the Warriors advantage in match ups. If Lebron weren't in Miami would they have still been considered favorites with just Wade/Bosh? GS was, that is the difference. Lebron helped be the force that pushed them from good to arguably the best team at the time. Durant just joined the team already up there.

After Bosh committed, Miami's odds shot up to 7/1 to match Orlando. I can't find the link that I saw yesterday, like the others I provided, but please take my word on that lol. Miami wasn't done though and if they didn't sign LeBron then they would have signed someone else. That player would have definitely not been LeBron and I highly doubt that it would have got them over the Lakers. Let's not forget that talk about how those three were planning that since the 2008 Olympics and the way LeBron quit halfway through that series vs Boston in the 2010 playoffs. To Durant's credit, even though he made a weak competitive decision, he never remotely quit in that WCF.

Miami was gearing up for that 2010 offseason to have the cap space to do something like that so their roster was barren. It's very different to compare the pre-offseason makeup fairly. If Miami had the benefit of and knew a crazy cap spike was coming like GS did, then they could have prepared differently in the previous years. Hell, maybe they would have added a 4th big FA that offseason on top of it. :(



Who is to say he continues to dominate like that every year either? Given his past that wouldn't be outlandish to say he comes back to earth a little either. I am saying remember it is a very short time frame you are relying on when talking about him and that matters.

As a young player who had the potential to reach that level, I'm more inclined to give him his credit and give him a positive outlook.


I still think given last year it would have been pretty bad. It would have made it look a little better sure but if everyone was the same talent level I think plenty would still point this all out.

Definitely still bad, because ultimately he's still teaming up with Curry and co, but not the same narrative that everyone is talking about. In that scenario, would it be worse than LeBron joining a top 3 player who was already a champion and Finals MVP in Wade? But hypothetical, so whatever.


GS core has won a title together and also had the all time best RS while being 1 game shy of a repeat. It is not the same is the main point being made by people (mostly to the Lebron haters) and it is funny because they were the ones doing the bashing before. The way Miami joined and dwarfed talent left things much closer than what Durant/GS did and everything else mentioned makes it worse as well. Yes Lebron arguably joined a better situation than he should have but it wasn't nearly like this in comparison for many reasons. It was close and given his former team and the options out there it made sense which wasn't nearly to the extent of just joining and potentially all time great team already in place.

I get saying Lebron made a chump move (I think it was way overblown but semi agree with it) but this is drastically further than he took it and the same people whining before are arguing for it now.

More fair points, like your entire post, but I think we covered this already. :cheers:

I think we're in a similar place overall, ultimately we agree that they're both weak moves competitively speaking. These long posts are exhausting, I regret being so long winded in my initial posts. :laugh2:

FOXHOUND
07-23-2016, 05:54 PM
I agree and I think if what he did isn't as impressive as what Lebron did many will point that out too when people say rings. Only the crazies won't agree.

Let's remember how Lebron played/carried those Heat teams and then compare what Durant does on the Warriors to that. I totally agree we have to wait and see now to decide where his legacy goes. I personally find it hard to see him dominating in the same way comparatively but it is possible. The weird thing to me is how that would probably end up hurting Curry's legacy in a sense if that happened.

Well I think that's more viable for Durant vs LeBron in the all-time rankings talk. I think Wade, Bosh and those excellent role players did a whole lot more than they get credit for though. The way some people are talking, nothing Durant does will matter because of his decision. That's definitely not true, if he's winning championships, Finals MVPs and MVPs then he'll skyrocket up the all-time charts just the same as LeBron did in Miami.

Also, look at Magic and Kareem. Obviously how the team came together was different, but plenty of people put both of them top 5 all time. Nobody bickers about Magic not winning Finals MVP for his last two, nobody bickers about Kareem winning Finals MVP in 2/6. Same for Duncan, nobody cares that Parker won in 07 and Kawhi in 2014. As long as Durant and Curry are winning championships and maintaining their place as top players then no one will care when it's all said and done.

FOXHOUND
07-23-2016, 06:12 PM
Thats sort of like saying, why wouldn't I if at the start of the playoffs and then the actual Finals, Warriors were the team to beat? This argument is essentially asking me to ignore the 73 wins GS just racked up and I cant do that.

Why would I ignore who actually won the NBA championship, though? You can say that GS had a good chance to beat Cleveland without Durant, but obviously the NBA champion is always the team to beat.


Would love to see that argument but I think the fact that it went 7 is going to make it a hard sell. Especially with how porous Kyrie was on both ends for the first 4 games overall and how passive Bron was for much of the start of the series. I look at Shaq completely dominating the DPOY and the alleged MVP in 5 games after sweeping much of the conference. Its really hard to top that right off my head, Kobe was at least above a Kyrie level of play, especially since he actually put forth a ton of effort in the regular season vs Kyrie who slept walked on 1 end much of the year.

Let's not talk about the pathetic excuse of a Finals team that the 2001 76ers were. The real Finals back then were the WCF, but yeah Shaq and Kobe demolished those teams to a very high level themselves. What LeBron and Kyrie just did is on a Shaq-Kobe, Jordan-Pippen, Magic-Kareem level, etc. That's the point.

Yes, both LeBron and Kyrie didn't get off to a great start in this Finals. But then they both completely dominated in the best comeback in Finals history vs a 73-win team that included the first time teammates both scored 40 in a Finals game together in history. Look at the way game 7 ended, with LeBron's block on Curry and Kyrie ended it with a game winning 3 in Curry's face. What they did in the second half of that series easily dwarfs their slower starts, obviously since they are NBA champions.


I disagree, he created a new power that could contend with theirs. I dont see how they dwarfed the Lakers in talent, championship talent matters more than who can score the most on their own squads.

The oddsmakers had Miami at 9/5 (55%) odds vs the Lakers 1/3 (33%) odds going in. Miami went on to appear in 4 straight Finals and won 2 while the Lakers and their old age fell apart never made it back again. What part of that did you miss?


It took a suspension and Klay and Curry to play far below their capabilities for Cleveland to squeeze out a win, and in response, GS added a player who quite honestly could be the best player in the league, well at least if he wants it. I have no idea what kind of role he will have in GS but as a competitor, I know he lacks the cojones to create his own power ala Bron.

And it took injuries to Irving and Love for GS to win in 2015, no? Injuries are part of the game and Green is a dipshit who could have been suspended in the WCF and had OKC in the Finals to begin with. The Cavs played great D on Curry and Klay, it's not like they were accidentally below par. Durant choked in the WCF vs GS, he can easily choke in the Finals ala LeBron in 2011. Don't crown them before they earn it, give your boy LeBron a little more respect.



Because Miami doesn't win a title without Bron, Miami doesn't break the RS record without Bron. The intelligent fans knew that Wade was on the decline and had overlapping skills with Bron. Bosh was no longer interested in maintaining his frame and loathed the post up game. CONTEXT is why its different.

Uh, who the hell thought Wade was on decline in 2010? Did you forget that after the failure of the 2011 Finals that Wade willingly stepped back in his role to allow LeBron to be his complete self in 2011-12? Wade didn't decline until year 3, that talk is way overblown because he was still very good in year 3. Bosh was turned into a spot up shooter because of the pace and space system they developed on the spot vs Indiana. His doing that allowed LeBron to shoot 56% by pulling the C from the rim, which immediately plummeted after he went back to a more traditional system in Cleveland. Context.


There is no double standard. Bron never dick rode a historic core that had already won, he CARRIED a cast to the point where the legend of the game admitted he just witnessed one of the greatest overall playoff runs of their time.
Hate to break the news to you but Bron doesn't need any favors here, the facts speak louder than your unsubstantiated claims.

It seems like you have already written Durant's history for him, we don't know what he's going to do in GS. But no, plenty of people talked about LeBron dick riding Wade so I don't know why you said that. Those Miami teams were extremely stacked, stop trying to make it sound like he pulled a Dirk in 2011.

mngopher35
07-23-2016, 08:18 PM
There's also the mindset of don't fit what isn't broke though. Adding a player of Durant's caliber is going to completely change what they do. They're going to have to start from scratch in camp and greatly adjust everything they do, but of course the GS players existing chemistry is a big bonus. I don't think anyone doubts that this GS is more talented than that Heat team, but I find talent to be relevant to the competition.

I do too and it still paints Durant in a worse picture imo and by a pretty big margin. I might differ from other people on some things too and that could be why but overall the large majority of people I have talked to seem to agree overall. What Durant did is just much worse in an overall context than what Lebron did from a competative standpoint. From the team he was on, the team he joined, and comparatively to other teams at the time.

I want to start by saying top level talent is not all I look at to judge teams. I judge on skill sets/fit, starting talent, depth talent, coaching etc. so if just top level talent is the only criteria we will differ there. I think GS having done what they have over the last 2 years and keeping so many guys together is huge when comparing the situations. I think skill sets also play a huge role, in fact I think Lebron joining Klay+Green on the Heat in 2011 is about the same overall as Wade/Bosh despite being less talented. Green's defense/passing/spacing/versatility overall are more effective in a secondary role than Wade imo to help overcome the talent gap. Just to give an idea where I am coming from moving forward but my point is that people way way overreacted to the Heat in 2011 and now they want to brush off what Durant did when it is much worse in comparison.



I think it matters for both from purely a competitive standpoint. Just simply in the sense that Durant should want to beat Curry, not join him and the same for LeBron with Wade back then. But beyond that, yeah obviously both maximized their winning opportunity in free agency. Right now Golden State is the favorites at 2/3 odds (66%), with defending champ Cavs at 7/2 (22%). In the 2010-11 offseason Miami was favored to win it all at 9/5 (55%), with defending champ Lakers at 3/1 (33%). http://bleacherreport.com/articles/421131-nba-2010-11-oddsmaker-who-will-win-the-nba-championship-next-season

I mean, is 11% really all THAT different? At the time, plenty of people were talking about that Heat team legitimately being able to win 6 rings. The same kind of talk for this GS team is applicable. I don't see why people are retroactively trying to make it seem like it's an insane difference. Are there different circumstances? Of course, but in the end both teams at that offseason looked like they would go on to win the next 3-6 NBA championships. We know how Miami worked out, let's see how GS fares.

I think that what Durant did in that sense of jumping to the team that beat his after he had a 3-1 lead over them is much worse. Lebron joined other stars on bad teams to try to combat those top teams at the time. Much different from a competition standpoint, literally can't beat em join em.

Here is the thing though as I said earlier there was a major overreaction to the heat in 2011. I think odds will be affected by that with emotion playing a big part in perception at that time. This year with GS at -140 is one of the rare times I am going with the single player/team in bets like that. So while you see it as an 11% difference I think part of that is simply an overreaction to everything going on with the heat (loaded top talent is flashy, decision, pep rally, Cleveland reaction burning jerseys etc). It was a different way of coming together through FA instead of a team building together with mix of fa/draft too. Even with seeing those results GS managed a nice jump overall, the gap between them and the next team is double the difference from LA to Miami at the time.



Sure, it's more literal in the, if you can't beat them join them, sense. I don't see how you can ignore the different circumstances though. First, going to the Lakers or Celtics wasn't a financial possibility for LeBron. Second, who cares how they came about when the end result is the same? It's impossible to make a point for point comparison with a ton of situational things being different, but in the end both put themselves in a position where everyone was thinking they were going to pull a Russell Celtics.

The end result is not the same and it is much different to take away a powerhouse to join the top one than to leave a lesser power house (essentially a power house due to Lebron) to create a legitimate power house to compete with those teams at the top instead of just widening the gap by joining. I get that Lebron didn't have the chance to do it while getting the max but that doesn't change the fact that Durant did it. I agree these were special circumstances with the cap rising but from a competative level this is definitely a worse move.



Apologies for my stupid joke. :D

I wasn't pooping on Pau, but the reality is that he never dominated a series like Kyrie just did. But you're right, they are very different players. Pau is a tremendous all around support guy where as Kyrie is just primarily a scorer. The thing is that Kyrie is legitimately one of the best scorers in the NBA and he was taking over and dominating in those games with LeBron. Rebounding is great, but it will never be as valuable as scoring.

There is of course the vast difference in position and role. Pau being a big has to add rebounding and rim defense, where as obviously that's irrelevant for Kyrie. It's not like Pau was that great a defender or anything either. Awesome rebounder for sure, though. But yeah, only duo in Finals history to score 40 points together in the same game. Kobe and Pau never dominated a game like that together at any point, it's just not in Pau to dominate like that. LeBron and Kyrie were getting their Durant and WB on, dominating on that level together.

The thing is Pau fits next to a volume scorer and Kyrie fits next to a creator. Both were great 2nd options and played at a level near their top guy. Pau isn't going to get the same opportunities for points as Kyrie did in that role but he still had similar impact due to his overall game. That is my main point.



Ugh, Bynum. He was so ridiculously overrated, especially during those Finals runs since he was playing on one leg every postseason. He averaged 7 points and 5 boards in 24 MPG during the 2010 Finals. He was never that big a factor, and really he just greatly benefitted from playing with Kobe and Pau. So did Odom, but at least he did stuff in 08 and 09. Odom was trash in the 10 Finals, though.

How can you deny the talent and depth of this Cavs team? They have Kevin Love, who was 2nd team All-NBA before joining them, chilling in a role player role during the Finals. They took Richard Jefferson and threw him into the starting lineup and he was fantastic. They had Mo Williams undressed even though he was capable of doing a solid job starting for Kyrie in the beginning of the year. Are we really going to sit here and act like guys like Ron Artest, Derek Fisher, Shannon Brown and Jordan Farmar were special by any means? Sasha Vujacic? Luke Walton? How far are we going to go?

Is Kyrie/Kevin/TT that much better than Pau/Odom/Bynum when we consider talking perceived talent at the time? Like I said Bynum was considered a top 3 center (although I agree overrated), given the current thoughts on Love in comparison that isn't bad (despite what you say on Love he had bad averages in the finals too), Gasol lead a team as the man to the playoffs which Kyrie/Love never did. Odom to me had a similar type of impact as TT but probably had more perceived value. Then the guys you mentioned and Phil Jackson at coach you don't think that is pretty close overall (I would agree slightly favor Cavs but not far off)? I think you are downplaying the level people thought of those Lakers at the time a little bit, although I agree on Bynum being overrated (Love on Wolves was too, now maybe underrated). I think Pau was thought of very highly like Kyrie, Bynum similar to how Love is right now (which is worse than his #'s on Wolves would indicate), Odom to TT and Lakers with arguably the best coach ever and decent depth like cavs. Nothing majorly different imo although I would favor Cavs with Lebron.

To me this could be an area we see differently then. I don't think this Cleveland teams support is far far better than that lakers team at all. Better sure but it isn't some drastic difference, smaller than the difference between Cleveland and current GS for example.


If the argument is that the Cavs were fortunate for reasons A, B and C because Golden State was up 3-1, why do we over credit OKC for being up 3-1 when they ultimately lost? The Clippers would have had to trade Griffin or Jordan for zero and renounce every FA to afford Durant, which would leave them with a roster of 8+ vet min players. Is that great? The Spurs would have also had to gut their team a bit and would have had to force Kawhi or KD to start and heavily play PF. Again, great?

They would not have had to do that at all their plan was to add him to that core group. Spurs is definitely a great situation with Pop/spurs, a top 5 player in Kawhi, and Aldridge. How can you downplay these options so much? Kawhi/Durant/Aldridge in the frontcourt in small ball would be amazing. Yes there would be some things to figure out but aren't you the one saying that about GS anyways? These were great options to win and compete (I actually think there might have been some backlash with these moves although not this level at all) but he wanted by far the easiest even if it meant just joining the top team who beat him.


There was no situation to pull a Miami for Durant. Maybe if there was another FA of his caliber and they both went to Boston, but sorry no way does Durant-Horford-Thomas and good role players cut it when you have to deal with the Cavs and Warriors. He would still would have went into the season as the 3rd favorite, at best, just like if he stayed in OKC.

I agree Boston would have been a risk but LA/Spurs were arguably as good or better than a Miami type situation. He didn't want that though he wanted to make it much easier than that by just going to that top team instead.


When the Cavs entered the 2009-10 season they were actually tied favorites with the Lakers for the championship. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Updated-odds-to-win-2010-championship-following-?urn=nba,174375

Before he left in FA, they were being slotted as 2nd or 3rd favorites behind LA and Boston. Still fail to see how that's any different than Durant in OKC, unless you continue to ignore the overall landscape differences in the NBA in 2010 vs 2016 and the western conference vs the eastern conference in both years. LeBron had to battle Boston and Orlando going in, Durant had to battle GS and SA plus the Clippers with their 3 All-NBA players. Why keep pointing to Westbrook and ignore how much more ridiculously talented those teams he has to compete against are?

I will ask again for you to compare the supporting casts of Cleveland to these other teams we are talking about. Yes Cleveland was a great regular season team but it was mostly due to just Lebron there was no other star like Westy or Irving/Gasol or Green/Klay or Ray/KG/Rondo etc. Explain to me why we should ignore the post season play and talent level around him? There is a reason that Miami didn't always lead in RS and it isn't that they were less talented or less likely to win a championship.

Again I think you overrate the gap between 2010 Lakers and current Cavs. I think Cavs win but that gap is less than even the one between Cavs vs GS.




NY with LeBron? Totally different. Amare was in his prime and coming off a year where he helped Phoenix battle the Lakers in the WCF to game 6 with old Steve Nash. LeBron and Amare running PnRs in Pringles system, plus having insane size, athletic and floor spacing mismatches with Chandler at SG and Gallinari at PF, would have been devastating. I think Chicago was a better option, but that team could have been ridiculous. LeBron was also not down with playing PF yet and he would have had to do that in NY for a good amount.

Amare isn't as good as Kawhi or Paul. There was not Blake/Jordan/Aldridge or elite coaches either, it isn't close to the situations you were bashing before. It probably isn't even as good of an option as the Thunder with Westbrook, the team Durant just left. I mean Amare/Gallinari compare to Gasol/Bynum/Odom with the role players and coaching? Big advantage LA in the help still.

Again he left a worse situation for a situation no too far off from the top teams at that time (more talent but more question marks). I agree you could say he went overboard but what really happened is the people reacting to it are the ones who went overboard. It was a weak move but it was nothing like what we just saw from Durant in comparison.


Chicago ended up getting Carlos Boozer as their big FA and went on to win 60+ games while Rose won MVP. That team was more than ripe to completely dominate with LeBron. LeBron and Noah? That's a weak excuse. How were their spats any different than what Draymond Green just did the entire WCF, other than him going to kiss Durant's *** right after because he was recruiting him? LeBron, Rose and Noah would have been an insanely dominate trio.

Who are we to tell what relationships to have with players? I kinda like the idea of having a little rivalry with guys or wanting to beat those top teams etc instead of texting after the WCF games or whatever. I think Chicago was the one other good possibility for him but it was a bad fit with possible bad blood. Durant I think could have stayed with Westy, gone to LA, gone to Spurs or if we want to count the Knicks we can say gone to Boston.


How do you know what that Heat team would have done? LeBron prevented them from winning a title in 2011. Who's to say that Wade and Bosh + another FA or two instead of LeBron couldn't have won? I mean, if LeBron went to Chicago, of course it's probably them in the Finals instead but who knows? It's a big hypothetical all around.

Yup thats true we don't know for sure on any hypotheticals. Lebron deferred too much which isn't necessarily preventing the team from winning the title. I have seen players do that before and this was just him not taking over in anyway like he should have. He just became a 3rd option or something basically.


GS won two years ago, against a Cavs team with major injuries that had plenty of people saying it wasn't legit for that reason. Now they lost, further validating those naysayers. I don't think you can say he's hopping along for the ride when they didn't even win the championship this year.

It for sure is considering they have won once and were favorite to win again without him. He is hopping on to the best team in the league who won a title already and was 1 game away last year. Again both teams have now won a title while the other was at a disadvantage.


I agree that he should have stayed in OKC, but that would have left him as the 3rd or 4th favorite going in so it is what it is. The only way for him to go to favorite was going to GS, that's why he did. I agree that anyone defending Durant if they didn't like what LeBron did is a total crock. There are differences in many ways, but at the core of the decision it's the same mindset. Let me team up with a top 3 player and form a super team that dwarfs the NBA so that we can win a ton of championships.

I don't think so. I think going to Clippers or Spurs could have had him as potentially the favorite as well. I mean lets not forget what the Spurs just did or how good that Clippers group could be together (3 top 12ish players). I think it is a different mindset to just join the best team instead of wanting to go against them. I feel like cant beat em join em says it pretty well. I think the extent to which this team dwarfs the NBA is even greater than the extent Miami did it for sure as well.


I like referencing the pep rally because I think it's hilarious and hope is remains the most ridiculous thing I ever see in NBA history. :laugh2:

But I was really just talking about the fact that that Heat team was being looked at as if they would win the next 3-6 championships. Everyone was talking about how many championships they were going to win. Going the not 1, not 2 route was just a fun way of saying it. :D

I think that narrative for GS took a major blow when they lost to Cleveland. They were going to lose Bogut by sources who claimed that GS was fed up with his health and that he wanted a contract extension or to be traded. They were likely going to lose all those same role players, and even if not then age becomes a factor. Barbosa is 34, Iggy himself is 32 and turning 33 in January, Livingston turns 31 in September. It's very possible that those key role players could have fell off after a couple of long seasons and just father time doing his part. It was going to be very difficult for them to match the level of play of that 73-win season. Especially when looking at those age numbers going forward in dynasty talk.

Still great and fair bet to win it all, but they lost the right to that all-time team talk when Cleveland ripped it out of their hands. They could have regained that without Durant, but who knows if they would have beaten Cleveland.

I think you are under selling GS here, they were the favorites to win the title still despite your questions. They were considered to be a potential all time great team earlier this season as well, a few injuries/bad plays/decisions or one shot falling different and they maybe still have that going on. This is the thing though even with all that talk they now added Durant. This talk of winnings 3+ championships was going on for Golden State already just like it was for Miami at that time. This is why I think calling it hopping along for the ride is fair. This is close to Durant just joining Miami than what those 3 did on the Heat.




For sure, but for me I like to give credit to the victors. After the 2015 season, I respected GS and denied the people who said they only won because of Cleveland's injuries. By the same token, I give Cleveland respect for winning because they deserve it. They earned it and injuries are just part of the game.

On Draymond Green's behalf, he has no one to blame for himself for his pathetic conduct. If we're talking that fair talk, he could have easily been suspended during the WCF because he kept on tripping people and did other crap when he was 1 flagrant away. Zero sympathy for that suspension and GS is fortunate that the NBA let him get away with as much garbage as they did.

I like to look at the entire context as well as give that credit though. To me you can't just ignore things because a team won. Yes it was partly inflicted on themselves and there were questions the year before about Cleveland missing players too. To me that is context that is important when judging too is all I am getting at and to me they were favorites going forward still.



That's true, but to be fair to Cleveland we have to see what Klay and Green look like in the post Durant world. Kevin Love went from 25-14-4 beast to what he is now, so let's see what they look like. That comparison may be a lot closer than we think by the time the NBA Finals rolls around.

But again, that talk just reminds me of 2010 Heat. The matchups, the overwhelming talent, how is anyone going to compete with them, etc. Dallas did it and they were far more overmatched in talent than Cleveland will ever be vs GS. I'm not going to write off Cleveland yet, just like I didn't write off the Lakers in 2010. The Lakers wrote themselves off, though lmao.

That is why skill sets matter and I actually reference it in my initial response. There are less question marks not only because this team has won together basically already without him but because their skill sets match perfectly. Elite defense/Versatility/3pt shooting/rebounding are skills that translate through all roles. Ya they still have to put it together but they have a huge advantage on that even. Love was the main facilitator on our team, Westbrook actually had that role for OKC. On top of that Durant has those 4 skills I talk about that translate well while Love has 2/4 so a lesser role seems more likely to hurt him imo. Green/Thompson/Durant have all played a lot as off ball guys while Curry can be the initiator still.


After Bosh committed, Miami's odds shot up to 7/1 to match Orlando. I can't find the link that I saw yesterday, like the others I provided, but please take my word on that lol. Miami wasn't done though and if they didn't sign LeBron then they would have signed someone else. That player would have definitely not been LeBron and I highly doubt that it would have got them over the Lakers. Let's not forget that talk about how those three were planning that since the 2008 Olympics and the way LeBron quit halfway through that series vs Boston in the 2010 playoffs. To Durant's credit, even though he made a weak competitive decision, he never remotely quit in that WCF.

Miami was gearing up for that 2010 offseason to have the cap space to do something like that so their roster was barren. It's very different to compare the pre-offseason makeup fairly. If Miami had the benefit of and knew a crazy cap spike was coming like GS did, then they could have prepared differently in the previous years. Hell, maybe they would have added a 4th big FA that offseason on top of it. :(

But we are talking about just taking him off Miami their odds are now Orlando without him it seems. That seems fair to me. Without Durant the Warriors were favorites already. There is a big difference between a team with an outside chance (say Clippers for example and that might be giving Orlando credit) getting a top player to push them into that top spot than just joining that top spot. I don't get why anyone would fight that idea.

I know Miami was bear without Lebron that is kinda the point. We are taking the top players off each team and then compare where that team was expected to go without them. That is why people are pointing out what Durant did was worse, the team he joined compared to Lebron among other things.



More fair points, like your entire post, but I think we covered this already. :cheers:

I think we're in a similar place overall, ultimately we agree that they're both weak moves competitively speaking. These long posts are exhausting, I regret being so long winded in my initial posts. :laugh2:

I dunno I feel like you are downplaying and overplaying certain aspects throughout honestly. I mean in a general sense maybe that isn't drastically far off but still somewhat different I think. I think this move was much much worse than what Lebron and the Heat did for those reasons throughout. I think Miami got overreacted to for sure so I don't think people need to get crazy on Durant either. I just think it is weird that so many people are fighting how it is obviously different, especially the ones who before bashed Lebron over it. It is clearly a different situation and from what I can tell large majority see it as much worse in the competition stand point and I am arguing against those saying it is the same. To me there is are multiple clear differences in the situation that make it worse from Durants side which shouldn't just be written off/ignored when comparing like some want to.

I tried to just move on in some areas and not respond to make it shorter, if I skipped anything you wanted to go into more feel free to bring it up again.

mngopher35
07-23-2016, 08:30 PM
Well I think that's more viable for Durant vs LeBron in the all-time rankings talk. I think Wade, Bosh and those excellent role players did a whole lot more than they get credit for though. The way some people are talking, nothing Durant does will matter because of his decision. That's definitely not true, if he's winning championships, Finals MVPs and MVPs then he'll skyrocket up the all-time charts just the same as LeBron did in Miami.

haha I am definitely not one saying that. What I am saying is he needs those awards/accomplishments/stats/performances which have been mentioned. If he does that I can see the same credit given but it seems extremely unlikely to me given the team outlook. I don't think he will go down as that guy every time like Lebron did in Miami. I honestly am not sure they even face the same type of resistance/challenges Lebron had while in Miami let alone adding his impact/stats etc. I think Curry was on track for that chance individually before Durant though.


Also, look at Magic and Kareem. Obviously how the team came together was different, but plenty of people put both of them top 5 all time. Nobody bickers about Magic not winning Finals MVP for his last two, nobody bickers about Kareem winning Finals MVP in 2/6. Same for Duncan, nobody cares that Parker won in 07 and Kawhi in 2014. As long as Durant and Curry are winning championships and maintaining their place as top players then no one will care when it's all said and done.

I think people care more about who is the best player at the time carrying the load. I think it is brought up Duncan wasn't the same when Kwahi won FMVP though. It isn't the same as his 2003 ring for his legacy as an example. I agree if they go out and win like 5 championships together they will have great legacies still for sure. I do think it's possible someone takes a bit of a hit though because I feel like Curry on that GS team was headed towards that with a great opportunity at like 3-4 rings as the man with that core. It is weird how Durant just joined that group/guy to me it makes judging their legacies odd. Just gotta let it play out.

BKLYNpigeon
07-24-2016, 06:19 PM
Who gives a f--k when he's 49 years old.

naps
07-25-2016, 01:47 AM
KD is getting enough **** for his move but it's not even 10% of what LeBron got. And it's fair. LeBron is one of the most polarizing athletes of all time, and that's only a handful company, while KD is one of the hundreds of stars. Can't compare them in the same sentence.

Saddletramp
07-25-2016, 04:05 AM
Who gives a f--k when he's 49 years old.

I've seen you say this and use the age of 49 a few times now. Why? What's so important about him when he's 49?

And honestly, some will remember. Even if the Warriors win the next 4 titles, there will be some people, including me, who see these titles less than other titles for him. They'll remember the team and remember how the FO put together an amazing squad but Durant's legacy is forever tainted, win or lose. He quit. He had a monster team and he felt like he couldn't be a winner unless he hung on some coattails. Normally, that'd be excusable but only for those guys at the end like Malone and Payton (and then, their legacy is hit anyway by not being the leader of a winner-----Durant just expedited that) but Durant is what, 27? 28? That's white flag territory right there. And people will remember.

Between this and you making up **** about the Green arrest, you keep saying dumb things that are simply not true. Pure homerism at its finest(?......shittiest?).


#Kevin"RaisedtheWhiteFlag"Durant. I like it. I mean, I hate it because he showed his true b*tchboy colors, but I like the nickname for someone so deserving. I don't think anyone has ever deserved a nickname as much as he has except for maybe BKLYN "Still Owes a Link" pigeon.


And no, you're never living that down until you, you know, provide a credible source for the stuff that you made up.

Tony_Starks
07-25-2016, 09:20 AM
haha I am definitely not one saying that. What I am saying is he needs those awards/accomplishments/stats/performances which have been mentioned. If he does that I can see the same credit given but it seems extremely unlikely to me given the team outlook. I don't think he will go down as that guy every time like Lebron did in Miami. I honestly am not sure they even face the same type of resistance/challenges Lebron had while in Miami let alone adding his impact/stats etc. I think Curry was on track for that chance individually before Durant though.



I think people care more about who is the best player at the time carrying the load. I think it is brought up Duncan wasn't the same when Kwahi won FMVP though. It isn't the same as his 2003 ring for his legacy as an example. I agree if they go out and win like 5 championships together they will have great legacies still for sure. I do think it's possible someone takes a bit of a hit though because I feel like Curry on that GS team was headed towards that with a great opportunity at like 3-4 rings as the man with that core. It is weird how Durant just joined that group/guy to me it makes judging their legacies odd. Just gotta let it play out.

I give you your props for presenting your view and at least acknowledging others take on it without taking jabs. Foxhound too, you both make solid arguments.

Probably helps that you're not emotionally invested. Lol

mngopher35
07-25-2016, 04:57 PM
I give you your props for presenting your view and at least acknowledging others take on it without taking jabs. Foxhound too, you both make solid arguments.

Probably helps that you're not emotionally invested. Lol

Haha thanks and that bold is probably true, harder when it is players/teams you are really invested in. I think I have rooted for both of these guys throughout their careers at least at times (actually wanted to see them in the finals this year if I had my way).

I definitely understand that what Lebron did can be seen as weak. I think it was exaggerated at the time and people way overreacted. He had a really good team and probably the most help in the league but given fit/depth/coaching it wasn't that far off from those top teams (granted Lakers unexpectedly dropped off we are talking at FA time). They were just loaded at the top with talent. To me it was kinda weak in a way (basically a little overboard with talent) but I understood it given his limited options and the teams Cavs had surrounded him with for years and it wasn't like Miami was going to win it (or already had) if you just take him off that team.

When it comes to Durant I just think he went above and beyond to stack the deck in his favor and basically ride the coat tails of an already built core instead of having a team he could lead towards that goal. I mean like I mentioned in those other posts this isn't just creating a top team with a bit more talent than the rest but tons of issues/questions, it is joining that most talented team to create much more separation. Given the rest of the context like having Westy, being up 3-1 on said team and losing in part to his play only to just join them etc. I really have a hard time seeing how a few people can try to call it the same thing from a competitive standpoint.

Either way though he can still end up with a great legacy we just gotta see how things play out. To me it will be interesting to see how Curry's legacy gets changed as well with this move. I just think they have such high expectations now that even winning 3 rings might not be seen as incredibly impressive given it wasn't that far fetched without Durant joining.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 07:59 PM
Why would I ignore who actually won the NBA championship, though? You can say that GS had a good chance to beat Cleveland without Durant, but obviously the NBA champion is always the team to beat.
On the contrary (lol I know that sounds snide but it works too well here), I dont want to ignore anything. I would've given Durant the same crap had he joined Cleveland.

I disagree with the opinion the champ is always the team to beat tho. What if you had a feeling about the direction of the core group, what if your gut feeling was correct and the "team to beat" proves to lose in R.1? Who becomes the team to beat then? Is it the team that just beat the team to beat, do they carry around that imaginary title for as long as they keep winning? To me the team to beat is dependent on seasonal context. Like when Miami won with Shaq, I just had the feeling that core was done and that the team to beat was in San Antonio or somewhere.

With regards to Cleveland at this point in time, GS is the heavy favorite in my mind. The team barely lost an NBA Finals in controversial fashion, it took heroics from Bron and Kyrie that I simply dont think can conceivably be replicated just by the sheer law of averages and several of GS stars underperformed. I think if the exact same core plays the same series today, GS might have better health/player availability and the odds are they win. That same team just added KD. My only hope is for the experiment to unexpectedly blow up or for some other contender to mesh above and beyond their talent base, like say Cleveland gets the best out of Love in years or the Clippers Big-3 prove to be the kryptonite to GS killer but frail front court.




Let's not talk about the pathetic excuse of a Finals team that the 2001 76ers were. The real Finals back then were the WCF, but yeah Shaq and Kobe demolished those teams to a very high level themselves.
But regardless of which series you define as the real Finals, the gap only grows in my favor because those were the teams that won less than your pathetic excuse of a Finals team. Which BTW, I disagree completely with, they might be below average but history can show you far worse.


What LeBron and Kyrie just did is on a Shaq-Kobe, Jordan-Pippen, Magic-Kareem level, etc. That's the point.

But its not MY point. I would need to get an idea of your list list for such a ranking cuz I dont see the context here but I dont agree with the platform you put them on.


Yes, both LeBron and Kyrie didn't get off to a great start in this Finals. But then they both completely dominated in the best comeback in Finals history vs a 73-win team that included the first time teammates both scored 40 in a Finals game together in history. Look at the way game 7 ended, with LeBron's block on Curry and Kyrie ended it with a game winning 3 in Curry's face. What they did in the second half of that series easily dwarfs their slower starts, obviously since they are NBA champions.

Heres the thing, the other great duos dont have to apologize for not letting it get that close. Its not more impressive to barely scrape bye and its not more impressive to have lapses that dig you in the hole to begin with. Sorry but its not easily dwarfed by anything because this is a historic comparison, some guys dont need the excuses. Points are a crude barometer for a players production so color me unimpressed.


The oddsmakers had Miami at 9/5 (55%) odds vs the Lakers 1/3 (33%) odds going in. Miami went on to appear in 4 straight Finals and won 2 while the Lakers and their old age fell apart never made it back again. What part of that did you miss?

Whats this got to do with the talent argument and what we discovered to be true regarding that talent. Vegas odds are fluid so I dont see the point in your selective analysis here, like at various points Vegas had Miami pegged beneath teams they ultimately defeated just like Im sure you've experienced that when Cleveland lost to teams they were favored to defeat. Again, my point is that Bron created a new power to contend with those who had ruled the day, he didn't simply hop on an established core.


And it took injuries to Irving and Love for GS to win in 2015, no? Injuries are part of the game and Green is a dipshit who could have been suspended in the WCF and had OKC in the Finals to begin with. The Cavs played great D on Curry and Klay, it's not like they were accidentally below par. Durant choked in the WCF vs GS, he can easily choke in the Finals ala LeBron in 2011. Don't crown them before they earn it, give your boy LeBron a little more respect.

My entire point is that it boils down to such unexpected occurrences, we basically have to pray to the basketball gods that the injuries favor their opponents and even then it might not be enough.

When I feel its much more likely the team meshes and because the established bar is so low for KD that he should easily exceed what it takes to push such a historic core to the championship. He basically has to just be better than Barnes and hope Klay and Dray are true to their word about not worrying about shot attempts. And given what Klay has been saying about looking to Manu for inspiration, it appears hes serious about a reduced role. I honestly think he could have a Reggie Miller type season where the attempts go down but the efficiency shoots way up. Steph is the MVP and has plenty of room to regress, Dray can dominate the game without ever touching the ball so I dont see him as a problem. Even Zaza turned down 10M per year to play for the minimum in GS. I've just never seen a situation with this much prime talent outside the Olympics, I dont foresee any issues so I wont give Bron THAT much credit. Tho I would agree hes the best bet outside GS simply because Kyrie does have so much room to grow and appears to be ready for the challenge. Sadly I think Bron declines just a peg but yes, injuries ARE a part of the game.

But isn't it worth noting that GS dismantled Cleveland in the final games once they figured it out, whereas Cleveland squeaked by? Obviously the severity of the injuries were different but so was the outcome. I think if both teams are at full force, its GS with the repeat and now they just added KD. I get that DG deserved his suspension, Im not arguing that, Im saying he can and has made it through a Finals series without a suspension, I think the experience of this year will keep him in check, as much as possible at least.



Uh, who the hell thought Wade was on decline in 2010? Did you forget that after the failure of the 2011 Finals that Wade willingly stepped back in his role to allow LeBron to be his complete self in 2011-12? Wade didn't decline until year 3, that talk is way overblown because he was still very good in year 3. Bosh was turned into a spot up shooter because of the pace and space system they developed on the spot vs Indiana. His doing that allowed LeBron to shoot 56% by pulling the C from the rim, which immediately plummeted after he went back to a more traditional system in Cleveland. Context.

But he showed slippage from one year to the next before Bron ever showed up and everyone knew he was always an injury risk. Its kind of like looking at Bron today, knowing hes on the 2nd half of his prime and god knows how long he has in him. Wade is significantly smaller and less durable, thus given his playing style, was more susceptible to aging. He had one final peak season with Bron (which is around what I was expecting) and then 1 great RS with an injured playoff showing thereafter. Hell even in his great Finals where Bron deferred, people forget that Wade suffered an injury and was never the same. I dont think Wade had a choice but to step down and allow the team to preserve his body as best as possible. He certainly hasn't produced as well since Bron.

And Bosh did that for multiple reasons, of which because he preferred that style of play and its the direction the league was going with, these dont have to be mutually exclusive events you know. Bosh admits to shedding the weight because he didn't like banging down low and wanted to preserve his body. Its wasn't a situation like Rondo and KG, where KG has the post game but the team is optimizing the unit by utilizing his elite midrange game, then when Rondo was on the bench his inside shots skyrocketed. Bosh wants to play this style with or without Bron, its why hes still hoisting away today.



It seems like you have already written Durant's history for him, we don't know what he's going to do in GS. But no, plenty of people talked about LeBron dick riding Wade so I don't know why you said that. Those Miami teams were extremely stacked, stop trying to make it sound like he pulled a Dirk in 2011.
I dont get the reference. Pulled a Dirk in 2011? Is that suppose to be a testament to their respective performances because I dont recall any legend claiming that Dirk had one of the most impressive playoff runs ever nor the stats that put it in that class ala LeBron.

Anyways, I havent written anything, Im giving my opinion of what I think will happen and what has happened. And really, dick riding Wade? Wade is a single player who was losing in R.1 annually whereas KD is joining a PROVEN CORE of prime players and hoping he doesn't **** it up. Those Heat teams were very talented, arguably the best in the league but they weren't **** without LeBron. A declining Wade was already in LeBrons rear view mirror historically speaking, whereas KD and Curry are MVP's in the middle of their best days and were actually competing against each other in the playoffs.

Chronz
07-25-2016, 08:28 PM
So how would that affect your rankings? Obviously if one of the big 4 gets injured then he easily goes up. But assuming they don't and he just clearly outplays Curry.
Thats obviously more damaging to Curry. I truly thought he had a chance to go down as the greatest PG ever, surpassing even Magic the way it looked things were going before the Finals. If he never wins a F.MVP or even worse, never has a signature playoff run on par with the greats, then it becomes an impossible sell regardless of his RS prowess. If that scenario plays out then KD shoots up the rankings but unless he absolutely torches the court in ways we've never seen, given that he has the squad around him to fully optimize his efficiency he should, then it wont move him up much. I would look at KD as a rich mans Elvin Hayes legacy wise. His ring wont be the separating factor in a debate where the career worth is similar in the same way many ringless PF's are better than him. Another comparison would be Hondo, won a shitload of titles with the most stacked dynasty ever but then he also led his own version of those Celtics. Hondo is underrated but hes not considered in that realm for a reason. Nobody is a perfect comparison given the talent of KD and thats exactly why this move sucks.



Simply put, if KD is as good as I believe, this should be a relatively easy challenge. I hate hearing him say nothing is easy in this league when people already know some players/teams do have it easier/harder. No one has an equally challenging time, injuries hurt some teams more than others and the Warriors are the team best equipped to both reduce the possibility of injuries AND survive the loss of an All-NBA talent, those losses are usually crippling to a title contender. When the Clips lost CP3, it was over, they stood no chance against anyone. GS can literally lose 2 MVP caliber players and still be a threat to make the Conference Finals with the right seeding. Thats an absurd embarrassment of riches.

I've never been more sure of the eventual champion since MJ's Bulls so in my heart and head, I know KD is winning a chip but there are only 3 possibilities for me;


1. KD and Steph do the unthinkable and shatter the notion that you NEED an alpha dog to assert himself offensively. That their collective talent is so game breaking that they breeze through a season where they both average 25 and 5 and enjoy career high efficiency levels. Wade and Bron tried doing that with a less talented supporting cast in Y1 together, basically taking turns on offense and just letting one dominate the preferred matchup. Like teams absolutely prioritized game planning around Bron, they usually stuck their best defender on him and lived with what Wade did to punish them. They lost but they were in year 1 of the experiment, they hadn't yet figured out who their best PG was and that playing traditional isn't better than just playing your best players. The Warriors already have an established culture and ideas of how they could integrate KD. If we were to go back in time and tell Spo to watch football tapes for inspiration before Bron, say he integrates his space and pace approach from day 1, do you think a team that lost in 6 of the NBA Finals has a better chance? I dont know if its enough to win but it does make you think right. Well, in the event that they do win, that title does very little to aid Brons vs what he accomplished in the following years. If KD and Curry win in that fashion, its kind of a meh title.

#2. Someone takes the alpha role and they win with the most stacked support of all time, meh.

#3. They shatter expectations and either break their own records or display a level of playoff dominance unseen for over a decade. KD or Steph (maybe both) have a career year/playoffs, thats an ultimately undeniable consequence of their immense talent and as such, there is so much credit to go around that KD doesn't really suffer. In a way, proving capable of leading the greatest team of all time and imposing your will on the game at an elite level is a challenge in its own. Say GS wins 55 games and squeaks by a title, thats an unimpressive consequence if the team is fully healthy, wouldn't you say? Such a title does nothing to help KD's legacy. But KD winning 70+ in a career year? Thats at least doing whats expected of you, that moves you up the legacy ladder.

My thoughts are this, SOMEONE has to suffer here. Isn't that the point of sacrificing individual glory for team success? Or is GS so perfectly assembled that nobody suffers individual glory, they are all rock stars.

FOXHOUND
07-26-2016, 05:40 AM
I do too and it still paints Durant in a worse picture imo and by a pretty big margin. I might differ from other people on some things too and that could be why but overall the large majority of people I have talked to seem to agree overall. What Durant did is just much worse in an overall context than what Lebron did from a competative standpoint. From the team he was on, the team he joined, and comparatively to other teams at the time.

I agree that it's worse in a vacuum, but the league is also in a different place and his options weren't the same. LeBron couldn't stay in Cleveland and be the favorites to win and that holds true for Durant and OKC. Arguing which was hypothetically closer is debatable, because I don't see why Cleveland couldn't beat Boston the same way OKC could have beaten GS. The root of their decision was the same, they used FA to create the absolute best winning environment for them going forward.


I want to start by saying top level talent is not all I look at to judge teams. I judge on skill sets/fit, starting talent, depth talent, coaching etc. so if just top level talent is the only criteria we will differ there. I think GS having done what they have over the last 2 years and keeping so many guys together is huge when comparing the situations. I think skill sets also play a huge role, in fact I think Lebron joining Klay+Green on the Heat in 2011 is about the same overall as Wade/Bosh despite being less talented. Green's defense/passing/spacing/versatility overall are more effective in a secondary role than Wade imo to help overcome the talent gap. Just to give an idea where I am coming from moving forward but my point is that people way way overreacted to the Heat in 2011 and now they want to brush off what Durant did when it is much worse in comparison.

I don't judge just on top talent or talent in a vacuum either, but I don't see how that Miami team was overreacted to. Their first year was their worst but oddly enough they had the easiest path to the Finals. They strolled through the eastern conference playoffs to the tune of 4-1 victories each round and if LeBron shows up that Finals then they're beating Dallas in 4 or 5. That 55% was very fair, the only reason they lost was because LeBron choked. We don't have a crystal ball, so who is to say another bad series for Curry, Durant or Klay isn't on the horizon come Finals time?

Even with that, at the end of the day look what Miami accomplished. They became the first team since the 1982-1985 Lakers to go to four straight Finals. If LeBron doesn't choke, then they are one of 6 teams all time to 3peat and the only one to do that and make 4 consecutive Finals who isn't the Bill Russell Celtics.

The expectations were very real and fair, they just didn't live up to them. Golden State is in a similar position. Are they going to win a title or two? I think that's as close to a lock as you can get. Does that mean they're going to win every year? Absolutely not, just like it didn't for Miami. At the time of the 2010 FA, no one knew who was going to compete with Miami. We all looked at the age of the Lakers and Celtics and thought hell, if the Thunder don't stop them going forward then they're going to win 3-6 straight. Nobody was counting on Dallas to come in, nobody was counting on the Spurs three and four years later.

History has a funny way of working out sometimes. Trust me, I'm a NY Giants fan. ;)


It was a different way of coming together through FA instead of a team building together with mix of fa/draft too. Even with seeing those results GS managed a nice jump overall, the gap between them and the next team is double the difference from LA to Miami at the time.

Different, sure, but ultimately looked at in a similar light. The Cavs odds actually didn't change after the Durant signing, it just dropped the odds of everyone else. They're still in the same punchers chance position, but we'll see how that looks throughout the season. Any way you slice it, very few sports teams in history are given astronomical odds like 55% or 66% going in and they never are for no reason.


The end result is not the same and it is much different to take away a powerhouse to join the top one than to leave a lesser power house (essentially a power house due to Lebron) to create a legitimate power house to compete with those teams at the top instead of just widening the gap by joining. I get that Lebron didn't have the chance to do it while getting the max but that doesn't change the fact that Durant did it. I agree these were special circumstances with the cap rising but from a competative level this is definitely a worse move.

I just don't think you can ignore the special circumstances in both cases. What happened in 2010 was crazy and rare, and is something that is potentially on the table next year with the cap jump and the far, far more superior FA class. This Durant thing, just as crazy. At the end of the day, LeBron doing what he did in 2010 and Durant doing what he did in 2016 was the only way either were going into the season as clear favorites with very real talk of all-time dynasty potential.

If you're going to leave, why not leave for the best basketball situation? If you can leave for an insanely high potential situation like that, why do you stay where you are to be the 2nd, 3rd or 4th best team in the league? When you break it down like that, they were both in the same situation and made the same decision.

LeBron and Wade said it themselves - It was going to be easy. Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6. They joined with the mindset that they were going to just roll over the league and be the modern Russell Celtics. If the argument is against Durant's competitive nature, how is that any different? It's a retroactive excuse for LeBron just because that Miami team didn't live up to their full expectations. That was mainly due to him in the 2011 Finals and leaving in 2014 for greener pastures yet again.

You want to argue the degrees of weak competitive nature for either? Eh, let's call it a 11% difference in LeBron's favor. :D



The thing is Pau fits next to a volume scorer and Kyrie fits next to a creator. Both were great 2nd options and played at a level near their top guy. Pau isn't going to get the same opportunities for points as Kyrie did in that role but he still had similar impact due to his overall game. That is my main point.

I don't think Pau played near the level of Kobe, and for Kyrie he only did offensively. Like Kyrie, Pau didn't have close to the impact of Kobe defensively, let alone offensively. Kobe shut down the entire Celtics offense in 2010 by defending Rondo, sagging off him and wrecking all of their passing lanes. When you add rebounding and positional difference, Kobe averaging 8 rebounds as a SG vs Pau averaging 11.6 as a PF/C isn't much in his favor either.

But that's a completely separate topic.


To me this could be an area we see differently then. I don't think this Cleveland teams support is far far better than that lakers team at all. Better sure but it isn't some drastic difference, smaller than the difference between Cleveland and current GS for example.

Yeah, this is something we definitely see differently. I would never begin to compare Love to Odom, even in his Cavs role. Love's concussion in the Finals made him look far more helpless than he is, and so does his team fit there. He wasn't far from leading Minnesota to the playoffs his last year. They went 40-42, lost Pekovic and Martin to a nice chunk of games and had absolutely no depth to make up for those injuries, let alone have a good bench every game. After trading Love, they went from those 40-wins to 16-wins.

I know it's not as epic as the Cavs drop post LeBron in 2010, but it's something that always seems to be forgotten when people are using him as the new Bosh punching bag.


They would not have had to do that at all their plan was to add him to that core group. Spurs is definitely a great situation with Pop/spurs, a top 5 player in Kawhi, and Aldridge. How can you downplay these options so much? Kawhi/Durant/Aldridge in the frontcourt in small ball would be amazing. Yes there would be some things to figure out but aren't you the one saying that about GS anyways? These were great options to win and compete (I actually think there might have been some backlash with these moves although not this level at all) but he wanted by far the easiest even if it meant just joining the top team who beat him.

Clippers had to clear the way to offer him a max, and even then why would he leave for a group that can't even make the WCF?

Spurs yes, great option but they would have had to do some serious cleaning to get him max money. And yes, the position thing is a big deal. Last year, Aldridge and the Knicks canceled their meeting because the Knicks wanted him to play C. I'm sure he would do it for Durant, but that still means that either Durant or Kawhi is starting at PF and playing the majority of their minutes there and that must have been a big turnoff. That creates too much change of the unknown.


I agree Boston would have been a risk but LA/Spurs were arguably as good or better than a Miami type situation. He didn't want that though he wanted to make it much easier than that by just going to that top team instead.

None of those would have been a Miami type situation because none of those make him the clear NBA favorite to be a champion next season and beyond. That's really the difference.


I will ask again for you to compare the supporting casts of Cleveland to these other teams we are talking about. Yes Cleveland was a great regular season team but it was mostly due to just Lebron there was no other star like Westy or Irving/Gasol or Green/Klay or Ray/KG/Rondo etc. Explain to me why we should ignore the post season play and talent level around him? There is a reason that Miami didn't always lead in RS and it isn't that they were less talented or less likely to win a championship.

That Cleveland team was tremendous on D and they made guys like KG and Ray Allen look like doo doo. 2010 was worse because they appeased LeBron by signing Shaq and trading for Jamison, and abandoned their elite efficiency on offense, defense and the boards as a result. They went from top 4 in all 3 to top 7 in all 3. Any team that is top 4 in offensive rating, defensive rating and rebounding differential is a pretty damn good team.

But if you want to compare, how is the talent disparity between 2010 Cleveland and 2010 Boston any different than 2016 Oklahoma City and 2016 Warriors? You had Andre Roberson and Dion Waiters playing 30 MPG in the WCF. Who are these guys compared to Andre Iguodala and Harrison Barnes? The Thunder had arguably the worst starting and backup SG in the entire NBA. After trading for Oladipo, who was going to start at PF? Kanter, the guy who had to be buried to the same 12 MPG as Randy Foye against GS in the WCF because his D is just that bad? Illyasova, who is half dead?


Amare isn't as good as Kawhi or Paul. There was not Blake/Jordan/Aldridge or elite coaches either, it isn't close to the situations you were bashing before. It probably isn't even as good of an option as the Thunder with Westbrook, the team Durant just left. I mean Amare/Gallinari compare to Gasol/Bynum/Odom with the role players and coaching? Big advantage LA in the help still.

But once again, the competition isn't the 2010 Lakers, Celtics and Magic either. I also didn't bash those situations, just said that like the Bulls/Knicks in 2010 they would not have left LeBron in the same insanely dominant situation as Miami did. Being that LeBron and the 2009-10 Cavs entered the season tied with the defending champion Lakers for best odds, don't see why him pairing with rising stars in Rose and Noah or an elite big and great young talent in Amare and Gallinari doesn't propel those teams to the same status as these teams not named Golden State or Cleveland.

Amare was good enough to be on that Suns team who took those Lakers to game 6 in the 2010 WCF, was a top 10 MVP candidate and was 2nd Team All-NBA in 2010-11. Amare's PnR and PnP game that was perfected with Nash was all-time great and that's all he wanted to do as a big. PnR play or floor spacing is all LeBron wants from his bigs. Talking about grading rosters on fit, there probably is no better big man fit with LeBron in NBA history than Amare Stoudemire.

It also was Amare, Gallinari and Chandler in Pringles system. Gallinari at PF as a stretch 4, Chandler giving you efficient scoring and good D at SG and LeBron and Amare PnRing teams to death. Talking on matchups, LeBron and Amare PnR's would have devastated Bynum's horrendous PnR D playing behind right off the court.


Who are we to tell what relationships to have with players? I kinda like the idea of having a little rivalry with guys or wanting to beat those top teams etc instead of texting after the WCF games or whatever. I think Chicago was the one other good possibility for him but it was a bad fit with possible bad blood. Durant I think could have stayed with Westy, gone to LA, gone to Spurs or if we want to count the Knicks we can say gone to Boston.

I just think that's a convenient excuse to eliminate Chicago in your mind despite them being the insanely viable option that they were. They went on to lead the NBA in wins with 62 and that was with picking up Carlos Boozer. There is no way, shape or form that Carlos Boozer is a better fit than LeBron James for anyone.

The real difference is that the teams in the 2010 free agency all got played by LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Wade and Bosh were going around with cameras filming a documentary about their FA process that thankfully never saw the light of day. I think it's pretty clear that they colluded to do what they did and that's why LeBron quit halfway through the 2010 ECSF like he did. That is the part that is really damning for him.


I think you are under selling GS here, they were the favorites to win the title still despite your questions. They were considered to be a potential all time great team earlier this season as well, a few injuries/bad plays/decisions or one shot falling different and they maybe still have that going on. This is the thing though even with all that talk they now added Durant. This talk of winnings 3+ championships was going on for Golden State already just like it was for Miami at that time. This is why I think calling it hopping along for the ride is fair. This is close to Durant just joining Miami than what those 3 did on the Heat.

Yes, they were favorites, but there's nothing to suggest that Cleveland couldn't have beaten them again. After all, they were favorites to repeat going into last season and look what good that did them.

To the bold, you can say that for many teams throughout all of sports history. That's why they play the games.


I like to look at the entire context as well as give that credit though. To me you can't just ignore things because a team won. Yes it was partly inflicted on themselves and there were questions the year before about Cleveland missing players too. To me that is context that is important when judging too is all I am getting at and to me they were favorites going forward still.

I don't ignore it either, but ultimately Cleveland beat them and that is something I respect a bit more than vegas odds. After the Finals, there's nothing I wanted to see more than Warriors-Cavs 3, except for something Knicks related of course. :D Now that's changed though, and it's really lame from a basketball history perspective.


That is why skill sets matter and I actually reference it in my initial response. There are less question marks not only because this team has won together basically already without him but because their skill sets match perfectly. Elite defense/Versatility/3pt shooting/rebounding are skills that translate through all roles. Ya they still have to put it together but they have a huge advantage on that even. Love was the main facilitator on our team, Westbrook actually had that role for OKC. On top of that Durant has those 4 skills I talk about that translate well while Love has 2/4 so a lesser role seems more likely to hurt him imo. Green/Thompson/Durant have all played a lot as off ball guys while Curry can be the initiator still.

Yeah, I'm not really expecting them to have any problems but I want to see them do it first. Even Miami, for all of their woes, could have cruised to a title in year 1. It really didn't take Miami long to find a more than good enough balance, it just took a while for them to become that all-time great level team.



But we are talking about just taking him off Miami their odds are now Orlando without him it seems. That seems fair to me. Without Durant the Warriors were favorites already. There is a big difference between a team with an outside chance (say Clippers for example and that might be giving Orlando credit) getting a top player to push them into that top spot than just joining that top spot. I don't get why anyone would fight that idea.

But as I said, Miami wasn't done making moves and that was their odds pretty much with just Wade and Bosh alone. They would have soured past Orlando after another big FA signing, but with LeBron they soured past everyone.

I'm not fighting that idea, just not comparing the situations directly to that level since there are a ton of variables in circumstance. There was no team stacked to the Warriors level in 2010, except for the post FA Miami Heat. There was nowhere that Durant could have went in FA to dwarf the Warriors in talent the way Miami did the Lakers in 2010.


I know Miami was bear without Lebron that is kinda the point. We are taking the top players off each team and then compare where that team was expected to go without them. That is why people are pointing out what Durant did was worse, the team he joined compared to Lebron among other things.

But that direct comparison is impossible when that Miami team was designed to strike gold in the 2010 FA like they did. I think you can fairly say that Durant's is worse, I just find them to be similar moves.


I dunno I feel like you are downplaying and overplaying certain aspects throughout honestly.

I think that's just us seeing some things very differently. :cheers:

Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 09:01 AM
Kevin Durants GS jersey is the highest selling jersey across the country right now, and he hasn't even played a game.

The fans will get over it, just like they did with good ol Bron Bron.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 10:20 AM
I agree that it's worse in a vacuum, but the league is also in a different place and his options weren't the same. LeBron couldn't stay in Cleveland and be the favorites to win and that holds true for Durant and OKC. Arguing which was hypothetically closer is debatable, because I don't see why Cleveland couldn't beat Boston the same way OKC could have beaten GS. The root of their decision was the same, they used FA to create the absolute best winning environment for them going forward.


I dont think thats true. I was paying pretty close attention to the odds because I was getting ready to put money down on OKC. Had KD resigned, OKC would have actually held the highest odds in the league at this point in time. Cleveland was seen as a team on the descent so it wouldn't have held true for Bron.

And I dont see how its debatable either, gopher has really laid down the very significant differences, we've been preaching the same **** for awhile now.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 10:27 AM
Kevin Durants GS jersey is the highest selling jersey across the country right now, and he hasn't even played a game.

The fans will get over it, just like they did with good ol Bron Bron.

Wait, were you expecting fans not to buy his jersey, the freshest one? Lets put it this way, if he stays in OKC, do you think his jersey sells more? I dont, the reasons should be obvious.

Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 10:44 AM
Wait, were you expecting fans not to buy his jersey, the freshest one? Lets put it this way, if he stays in OKC, do you think his jersey sells more? I dont, the reasons should be obvious.


No I wasn't expecting fans not to buy, I'm pointing out that this goes along with my point that while a few people will stay disgruntled about him for pulling a Lebron the vast majority will get over it.

These are jersey sales across the country btw.

I'm pointing out that KDs perspective of "people can say whatever they want about my legacy, that's on them,...I'm doing me (paraphrasing)" is on point.

Especially if they win a chip and he's FMVP then who really cares?

naps
07-26-2016, 11:05 AM
Funny how the same people who trashed LeBron for creating a superteam from the scratch are defending KD for joing a ready-made one, one that just made history of winning most games in a season and was just short of being a back to back champion because of a controversial ban of its most important player. Funnier thing is most of these people are fans of a retired player.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 11:12 AM
No I wasn't expecting fans not to buy, I'm pointing out that this goes along with my point that while a few people will stay disgruntled about him for pulling a Lebron the vast majority will get over it.

These are jersey sales across the country btw.

I'm pointing out that KDs perspective of "people can say whatever they want about my legacy, that's on them,...I'm doing me (paraphrasing)" is on point.

Especially if they win a chip and he's FMVP then who really cares?
Heres the thing, Im pointing to the same evidence and I have the counter view, so we both cant be right. I was FULLY expecting KD to have the top selling jersey. The only way KD experiences similar gains in his jersey sales in OKC is if he changes his number. And yes I know, did you hear that OKC is one of the teams?

KD's perspective? You actually buy whatever comes out of his mouth at this point? LOL, thats totally up to you bro but him doing him is what led to him staying in doors for a few days, if living in fear of criticism and alil animosity is you doing you then feel free to live your ***** life, some of us are just gonna call it how we see it. We see you getting disrespected/boo'd by children/charles barkley, getting boo'd at staples when representing the USA the other day. A quick tangent on that Im proud if its Clipper/Laker fans and laughing hysterically if this becomes the norm outside of LAC games, which is off because all year LA fans were chearing for GS, even during Clipper games, it was obnoxious. Were the FIBA tickets just cheap enough to get actual fans in the seats or did the casual fans not know about the games?


I just hope he learns to deal with the fact that people will hold his actions against him.
I wish he would've been this beta persona before the move, maybe I just expected too much out of him but thats why we're dubbed fanatics I guess.



Especially if they win a chip and he's FMVP then who really cares?
This part makes no sense to me, isn't that what we're all expecting at this point? Lemme ask you this personally, if he DOESN'T win F.MVP but cruises to a title, do you diminish his run?

Im asking you because I care more about the opinions of fans who care enough about their sport to debate it over the casual audience that forgets and gets over much more relevant aspects of life outside the realm of sports. Trust me, I know America forgets quickly and learns slowly, when I say the people will never forget, Im talking about the die hards, the guys who like to think they got their top-10 goat lists down to a science and the guys who have the humility/experience to know such lists are never definitive. The casuals? LOL, well, ****. Who the **** cares.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say KD is alarmed that hes the bad guy, he doesn't want to see or hear the criticism. Hes experienced it from the media and hes blasted right back at them in response for years, but now its the fans and Im not sure if he was expecting it to this degree. That will fade but I have a feeling the Dubs are gonna win in a way that its not even that challenging for KD. I hope Im wrong but I've just never seen this much talent on 1 team outside the Olympics.

Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 11:13 AM
It's funny how I've yet to see a single person in this thread NOT say KDs move was weak, regardless of who they are fans of.

Whats even funnier is that's not enough for fans of another certain player who make it their lifelong mission to defend him at all cost even when the topic isn't about him.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 11:33 AM
Funny how the same people who trashed LeBron for creating a superteam from the scratch are defending KD for joing a ready-made one, one that just made history of winning most games in a season and was just short of being a back to back champion because of a controversial ban of its most important player. Funnier thing is most of these people are fans of a retired player.

Im fine with people growing and accepting new ideas but whats hilarious to me is when people say KD wouldn't have joined GS if they had won the title. Like what on earth would give you the idea that he wouldn't? Hes done absolutely nothing to warrant that, hes already forming an unprecedented union, you really think a series decided by inches is going to determine his entire decision? LMFAO, everything hes been trying to put out there is that he views this as the hardest road, that hes out of his comfort zone but living somewhere his business ventures can grow, in an easier offense, somewhere hes with "family" thats organic. The Dubs been recruiting him ALL ****ING YEAR, he was cool with Dray while the guy was roughing up his teammates, instead of shutting off communication, backing your teammates and conjuring up the will to show up against them, he was thinking of joining them. KD doesn't want us to focus on the talent at hand.

KD was going to GS regardless, there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 11:34 AM
Heres the thing, Im pointing to the same evidence and I have the counter view, so we both cant be right. I was FULLY expecting KD to have the top selling jersey. The only way KD experiences similar gains in his jersey sales in OKC is if he changes his number. And yes I know, did you hear that OKC is one of the teams?

KD's perspective? You actually buy whatever comes out of his mouth at this point? LOL, thats totally up to you bro but him doing him is what led to him staying in doors for a few days, if living in fear of criticism and alil animosity is you doing you then feel free to live your ***** life, some of us are just gonna call it how we see it. We see you getting disrespected/boo'd by children/charles barkley, getting boo'd at staples when representing the USA the other day. A quick tangent on that Im proud if its Clipper/Laker fans and laughing hysterically if this becomes the norm outside of LAC games, which is off because all year LA fans were chearing for GS, even during Clipper games, it was obnoxious. Were the FIBA tickets just cheap enough to get actual fans in the seats or did the casual fans not know about the games?


I just hope he learns to deal with the fact that people will hold his actions against him.
I wish he would've been this beta persona before the move, maybe I just expected too much out of him but thats why we're dubbed fanatics I guess.



This part makes no sense to me, isn't that what we're all expecting at this point? Lemme ask you this personally, if he DOESN'T win F.MVP but cruises to a title, do you diminish his run?

Im asking you because I care more about the opinions of fans who care enough about their sport to debate it over the casual audience that forgets and gets over much more relevant aspects of life outside the realm of sports. Trust me, I know America forgets quickly and learns slowly, when I say the people will never forget, Im talking about the die hards, the guys who like to think they got their top-10 goat lists down to a science and the guys who have the humility/experience to know such lists are never definitive. The casuals? LOL, well, ****. Who the **** cares.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say KD is alarmed that hes the bad guy, he doesn't want to see or hear the criticism. Hes experienced it from the media and hes blasted right back at them in response for years, but now its the fans and Im not sure if he was expecting it to this degree. That will fade but I have a feeling the Dubs are gonna win in a way that its not even that challenging for KD. I hope Im wrong but I've just never seen this much talent on 1 team outside the Olympics.

If I believed this was going to be basically a automatic cruise control championship with minimal effort from KD , like you seem to believe, I would probably be of the same opinion as you.

I'm of the opinion it was a weak move, the team looks unbeatable on paper, but that's why we play the games. I'm of the opinion that they are the favorites but I would not be totally shocked if a team upsets them, especially the defending Champs. Defensively I need to see how they will hold up.

To answer your question IF they win the chip but he doesn't win FMVP I'm absolutely holding it against him. In my mind any consideration he has for best SF in the game dies. BUT I can't see it. If they win I think him scoring the most efficient baskets he's ever scored will have a huge role in it. If he was dropping 30s and 40s alongside Westbrook can you imagine what is about to happen?

I think they will feature him.

Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 11:43 AM
And as far as KD holding up I think he will actually embrace the villain role, much easier than Lebron did. Lebron was genuinely affected by it to the extent it threw his game off and even had him lash back with his famous "they have to go back to their lives" comment. It wasn't until that summer excursion with Wade that he got his mind right and it was a wrap.

KD has been a bit surly for years now, embracing that "not nice Kevin" persona. Coming back at the media, calling people out, the whole nine.

I think he will be totally comfortable being a total a-hole this season, and actually enjoy it.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 12:02 PM
If I believed this was going to be basically a automatic cruise control championship with minimal effort from KD , like you seem to believe, I would probably be of the same opinion as you.

I'm of the opinion it was a weak move, the team looks unbeatable on paper, but that's why we play the games. I'm of the opinion that they are the favorites but I would not be totally shocked if a team upsets them, especially the defending Champs. Defensively I need to see how they will hold up.

To answer your question IF they win the chip but he doesn't win FMVP I'm absolutely holding it against him. In my mind any consideration he has for best SF in the game dies. BUT I can't see it. If they win I think him scoring the most efficient baskets he's ever scored will have a huge role in it. If he was dropping 30s and 40s alongside Westbrook can you imagine what is about to happen?

I think they will feature him.
I have no idea what to expect in terms of usage distribution, I just think its soo much talent that the worries of it not working out are the slimmest we've ever seen. Its one thing when a team comes together for the first time and the coach doesn't really know what system to best utilize for his crew but GS is playing a style that KD has coveted.

When you say they will feature him, that must mean they drop down Curry, right? They have been talking about further massaging Curry's minutes but KD is no spring chicken either, still he prolly has the best chance of carrying the offense and holding up till the end. Come playoffs tho, Im curious to see if the pecking order becomes of more importance. If KD is about the team like he says and wants the easiest shots, then shouldn't that take away from the amount of shots he puts up? Playing with RWB meant more responsibility on him and even more when RWB went on the bench. In GS, is he essentially gonna play kind of like a cross between Klay and Curry taking away their floppy action and pnr sets? Is he gonna handle the ball more or less? Is he getting more catch and shoots or less. If he gets more of all that then hes definitely gonna take shine away from Curry and possibly Dray, unless they respond with an even higher efficiency level which is just gonna make me cry for the league competitively.

I know its just on paper but there has never been a team on paper this powerful. Look, the only way they dont win is if we can identify the guys who will struggle with the lessened load. Good luck with that, it could very well happen but you and I both know the team is going to mesh.

I ****ing hope you're right about Kyrie man, they are gonna need that ascension against GS and they wont get away with a Barnes type performance of 0-22 or whatever he was during that stretch.

Chronz
07-26-2016, 12:13 PM
And as far as KD holding up I think he will actually embrace the villain role, much easier than Lebron did. Lebron was genuinely affected by it to the extent it threw his game off and even had him lash back with his famous "they have to go back to their lives" comment. It wasn't until that summer excursion with Wade that he got his mind right and it was a wrap.

KD has been a bit surly for years now, embracing that "not nice Kevin" persona. Coming back at the media, calling people out, the whole nine.

I think he will be totally comfortable being a total a-hole this season, and actually enjoy it.

I dont recall Bron going into hiding tho, I remember him boasting dominance with his fans and doing typical PR work. And yeah he tried to embrace the villain role but there was talk that he didn't like it. Which is a shame because which guy has the look of a villain, this guy: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFp9EuVUgAAdTqt.png or this guy: http://i.imgur.com/xyFUoId.jpg

As for KD, him being surly is why I feel it effects him. Bron's words were meant to demonstrate that you can hate on him but you have to get on with your lives the next day anyways. To me thats no different than KD's wimpy attempts to feign disinterest.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-26-2016, 12:16 PM
It's funny how I've yet to see a single person in this thread NOT say KDs move was weak, regardless of who they are fans of.

Whats even funnier is that's not enough for fans of another certain player who make it their lifelong mission to defend him at all cost even when the topic isn't about him.
WTF I'm a warrior fan pretty sure I said it was weak. You guys probably didn't like it because I kept it G real and compared it to Lebron. Yesterday I was busy and couldn't debate. But today I got time cuz.

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-26-2016, 12:18 PM
Winning Are Rivals Regularly In Our Running Style. Haters gonna hate.

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FOXHOUND
07-26-2016, 12:26 PM
haha I am definitely not one saying that. What I am saying is he needs those awards/accomplishments/stats/performances which have been mentioned. If he does that I can see the same credit given but it seems extremely unlikely to me given the team outlook. I don't think he will go down as that guy every time like Lebron did in Miami. I honestly am not sure they even face the same type of resistance/challenges Lebron had while in Miami let alone adding his impact/stats etc. I think Curry was on track for that chance individually before Durant though.

Hahaha sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were. I was just talking in general terms there. I'm not sure how it's going to play out, but I think those awards are up for grabs between Curry and Durant going forward.



I think people care more about who is the best player at the time carrying the load. I think it is brought up Duncan wasn't the same when Kwahi won FMVP though. It isn't the same as his 2003 ring for his legacy as an example. I agree if they go out and win like 5 championships together they will have great legacies still for sure. I do think it's possible someone takes a bit of a hit though because I feel like Curry on that GS team was headed towards that with a great opportunity at like 3-4 rings as the man with that core. It is weird how Durant just joined that group/guy to me it makes judging their legacies odd. Just gotta let it play out.

They both probably will take a hit, and I think Magic and Kareem do too. I think there's a fair amount of people who don't consider either the GOAT because they had each other + Worthy and others. Wade ended up being the one to fall back and take more of the hit in Miami, and clearly Bosh lol. But yeah, gotta let it play out and that's going to be interesting to see.

FraziersKnicks
07-26-2016, 12:30 PM
Winning Are Rivals Regularly In Our Running Style. Haters gonna hate.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

I think you need to do what your username says.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-26-2016, 12:32 PM
I think you need to do what your username says.
I think you need to go get some new tampons little girl.

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Tony_Starks
07-26-2016, 12:32 PM
WTF I'm a warrior fan pretty sure I said it was weak. You guys probably didn't like it because I kept it G real and compared it to Lebron. Yesterday I was busy and couldn't debate. But today I got time cuz.

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Re-read what I said playa! I said we basically all called it weak. Lol

HOLD_THIS_L
07-26-2016, 12:47 PM
Re-read what I said playa! I said we basically all called it weak. Lol
Holding my L with pride lol.

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FOXHOUND
07-26-2016, 01:20 PM
On the contrary (lol I know that sounds snide but it works too well here), I dont want to ignore anything. I would've given Durant the same crap had he joined Cleveland.

Lol, no no I like that word. :cool:

Hmm, interesting because I would have given Durant the same amount of crap. How is joining LeBron, who just gained back his title as best player in the NBA and is a clear top 5 player of all time, not worse than joining Curry? How is Kyrie + Love + Thompson all that different from Klay + Green + Iggy?


I disagree with the opinion the champ is always the team to beat tho. What if you had a feeling about the direction of the core group, what if your gut feeling was correct and the "team to beat" proves to lose in R.1? Who becomes the team to beat then? Is it the team that just beat the team to beat, do they carry around that imaginary title for as long as they keep winning? To me the team to beat is dependent on seasonal context. Like when Miami won with Shaq, I just had the feeling that core was done and that the team to beat was in San Antonio or somewhere.

True, there are some instances where the champ doesn't look that way. Dallas after 2011 is another clear example since they effectively blew up their squad. I don't feel that way about this Cavs team, though. They haven't lost anyone important, although if they don't bring back JR for whatever reason that would be a decent blow. They were adjusting to a new coach halfway through the season and Kyrie is 24 and prime for a big breakout year after that playoff run. I'm expecting them to win 60+ games next year and be better.


With regards to Cleveland at this point in time, GS is the heavy favorite in my mind. The team barely lost an NBA Finals in controversial fashion, it took heroics from Bron and Kyrie that I simply dont think can conceivably be replicated just by the sheer law of averages and several of GS stars underperformed. I think if the exact same core plays the same series today, GS might have better health/player availability and the odds are they win. That same team just added KD. My only hope is for the experiment to unexpectedly blow up or for some other contender to mesh above and beyond their talent base, like say Cleveland gets the best out of Love in years or the Clippers Big-3 prove to be the kryptonite to GS killer but frail front court.

After the Durant signing? Absolutely, Golden State really does deserve those insane 2/3 odds. It's going to take a colossal effort from Cleveland and maybe some fortune against Golden State for them to win. But again look at 2011. Cleveland is not nearly as outmatched as those Mavs were against Miami and they didn't have the psychological advantage of already beating that team prior. Cleveland will not be intimidated in the slightest and all the pressure in the world will be on Golden State. That's a good recipe for an upset. All it takes is Durant or Curry to choke like they just did in the WCF and Finals and pull a 2011 LeBron to open that door.


But regardless of which series you define as the real Finals, the gap only grows in my favor because those were the teams that won less than your pathetic excuse of a Finals team. Which BTW, I disagree completely with, they might be below average but history can show you far worse.

Yes but I also look at their competition. Philly was ridiculously outmatched vs those Lakers so nothing about their decimation surprised me.


But its not MY point. I would need to get an idea of your list list for such a ranking cuz I dont see the context here but I dont agree with the platform you put them on.

I would have to really go in and look at many series for a complete list, but after what I witnessed I would say yeah arguably the best that I've seen off the top of my head. I haven't seen a duo dominate a Finals like that since the Shaq and Kobe days and that's enough of a compliment in itself.


Heres the thing, the other great duos dont have to apologize for not letting it get that close. Its not more impressive to barely scrape bye and its not more impressive to have lapses that dig you in the hole to begin with. Sorry but its not easily dwarfed by anything because this is a historic comparison, some guys dont need the excuses. Points are a crude barometer for a players production so color me unimpressed.

My counter would simply be that none of those other guys were faced against a 73-win defending champ juggernaut. They didn't "let" themselves get into a hole, they were underdogs going into that Finals. That's something very large in their favor that the Shaq-Kobe and Jordan-Pippen duos never had to deal with. Magic and Kareem were sometimes not the favorite going in, because the 80's were all about super teams, but they were obviously never stacked against a 73-win team like that.

If the Warriors won this past Finals then they are being looked at as the greatest team of all-time. No other duo can say they were the David to that Goliath and that's major bonus points.


Whats this got to do with the talent argument and what we discovered to be true regarding that talent. Vegas odds are fluid so I dont see the point in your selective analysis here, like at various points Vegas had Miami pegged beneath teams they ultimately defeated just like Im sure you've experienced that when Cleveland lost to teams they were favored to defeat. Again, my point is that Bron created a new power to contend with those who had ruled the day, he didn't simply hop on an established core.

Vegas odds are fluid but they illustrate what the sports world opinion is about teams at large. They hold more weight than me just saying that I thought Miami was a crazy stacked super team.

But I point to the difference in circumstance. Yes, LeBron created a new super power instead of joining an established core but it was not possible for him to join the Lakers or Celtics. For Durant, it was not possible for him to create a new core that would leap past the talent of Golden State or Cleveland. We don't know if LeBron would have went to Miami over joining the Lakers/Celtics if the opportunity was equal and we don't know if Durant would have formed a new core if their talent would exceed the Cavs/Warriors.


My entire point is that it boils down to such unexpected occurrences, we basically have to pray to the basketball gods that the injuries favor their opponents and even then it might not be enough.

My entire point is that that's exactly how the entire basketball world looked at it in 2010. I don't understand why some people are having a short memory about that fact.


When I feel its much more likely the team meshes and because the established bar is so low for KD that he should easily exceed what it takes to push such a historic core to the championship. He basically has to just be better than Barnes and hope Klay and Dray are true to their word about not worrying about shot attempts. And given what Klay has been saying about looking to Manu for inspiration, it appears hes serious about a reduced role. I honestly think he could have a Reggie Miller type season where the attempts go down but the efficiency shoots way up. Steph is the MVP and has plenty of room to regress, Dray can dominate the game without ever touching the ball so I dont see him as a problem. Even Zaza turned down 10M per year to play for the minimum in GS. I've just never seen a situation with this much prime talent outside the Olympics, I dont foresee any issues so I wont give Bron THAT much credit. Tho I would agree hes the best bet outside GS simply because Kyrie does have so much room to grow and appears to be ready for the challenge. Sadly I think Bron declines just a peg but yes, injuries ARE a part of the game.

I think you're simplifying the fit, to me this completely changes the entire dynamic of their team. Draymond Green as we knew him offensively last year will cease to exist and Klay will also lose plenty of touches. The Klay talk about Manu makes me wonder if he would be open to and if they would experiment with turning him into a "6th man" and start Iguodala to help lineup balance and to spread the wealth.

I agree that this squad is more likely to capitalize on their potential where as that Miami squad fell short, but let's see. I didn't mean give LeBron credit to the point of expecting him to win, but I think the Cavs have a punchers chance. What they have in their favor is their direct matchups with each teams best two players. If LeBron outplays Durant, which he's done in the Finals, and Kyrie outplays Curry, which he's done in the Finals, then that upset door can be very much open.


But isn't it worth noting that GS dismantled Cleveland in the final games once they figured it out, whereas Cleveland squeaked by? Obviously the severity of the injuries were different but so was the outcome. I think if both teams are at full force, its GS with the repeat and now they just added KD. I get that DG deserved his suspension, Im not arguing that, Im saying he can and has made it through a Finals series without a suspension, I think the experience of this year will keep him in check, as much as possible at least.

Cleveland's injuries were far more severe, it's just amazing that they were up 2-1 to begin with. I think it was fair to have GS as favorites before the Durant signing, but I don't see why it would seem shocking to think that Cleveland could beat them again after what we just witnessed.

My take as a NY Giants fan, I believed in the team in 2007 and after that I was not remotely surprised when they beat the Pats again in 2011. Once you kill Goliath then the thought of doing it again shouldn't be outlandish. Goliath is coming back bigger and stronger but the Cavs are a proven giant killer.


But he showed slippage from one year to the next before Bron ever showed up and everyone knew he was always an injury risk. Its kind of like looking at Bron today, knowing hes on the 2nd half of his prime and god knows how long he has in him. Wade is significantly smaller and less durable, thus given his playing style, was more susceptible to aging. He had one final peak season with Bron (which is around what I was expecting) and then 1 great RS with an injured playoff showing thereafter. Hell even in his great Finals where Bron deferred, people forget that Wade suffered an injury and was never the same. I dont think Wade had a choice but to step down and allow the team to preserve his body as best as possible. He certainly hasn't produced as well since Bron.

Wade was 28 at the start of the 2010-11 season, I just don't see how it's remotely fair to say he was declining. I remember people wondering how he would age because he wasn't the greatest shooter, but that was long term talk not for the upcoming season.

Wade just had a great playoff run and led his inferior team to game 7 in the 2nd round at the tender age of 34. I think he's still doing pretty well. I don't see the need to try and crap on the 3rd best SG of all time.

If you're going to say that a 28-year old is declining because he's smaller, less durable and as a result is more susceptible to aging, then couldn't I say the same about Stephen Curry? He's 28-years old, smaller and less durable than Wade and who knows if he's going to run into any more ankle problems or other health woes. :shrug:


And Bosh did that for multiple reasons, of which because he preferred that style of play and its the direction the league was going with, these dont have to be mutually exclusive events you know. Bosh admits to shedding the weight because he didn't like banging down low and wanted to preserve his body. Its wasn't a situation like Rondo and KG, where KG has the post game but the team is optimizing the unit by utilizing his elite midrange game, then when Rondo was on the bench his inside shots skyrocketed. Bosh wants to play this style with or without Bron, its why hes still hoisting away today.

Again, this seems like more tearing down LeBron's teammates to prop him up. Regardless of the reason, Bosh was excellent and vital for Miami's success. No one in the league had a stretch 5 and nobody has that full time to this day. Bosh developed into the best PnR defending big in the NBA and with that and his shooting was the key cog for their systems on both ends of the court. No other big in the NBA could have done what Bosh did for Miami, give him his credit.


I dont get the reference. Pulled a Dirk in 2011? Is that suppose to be a testament to their respective performances because I dont recall any legend claiming that Dirk had one of the most impressive playoff runs ever nor the stats that put it in that class ala LeBron.

You're trying to make it sound like LeBron completely carried the Heat, as if he didn't have 3 HOF teammates and other good role players. That was one of the most talented teams of all time, yet you paint a picture as if he wasn't playing with a single All-Star like Dirk in 2011.

I'm sure some legend praised Dirk after 2011, and if not then shame on them because it was undoubtedly one of the best playoff runs of all time.


Anyways, I havent written anything, Im giving my opinion of what I think will happen and what has happened. And really, dick riding Wade? Wade is a single player who was losing in R.1 annually whereas KD is joining a PROVEN CORE of prime players and hoping he doesn't **** it up. Those Heat teams were very talented, arguably the best in the league but they weren't **** without LeBron. A declining Wade was already in LeBrons rear view mirror historically speaking, whereas KD and Curry are MVP's in the middle of their best days and were actually competing against each other in the playoffs.

Yes, plenty of people talked about LeBron dick riding Wade. I was not one of them, but I can't believe that you don't remember that narrative. Even down to that language used on places like this forum lol. Wade was losing in round 1 because he was surrounded by trash while the Heat were focused on maximizing cap space for the 2010 offseason.

Being that he was Miami's best player in the 2011 Finals, despite "declining", I think it's safe to say that he could have been contending with LeBron the prior years if he had a contending team of his own. After all, Dwight Howard beat LeBron and all he had was Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu.

mngopher35
07-26-2016, 02:49 PM
I agree that it's worse in a vacuum, but the league is also in a different place and his options weren't the same. LeBron couldn't stay in Cleveland and be the favorites to win and that holds true for Durant and OKC. Arguing which was hypothetically closer is debatable, because I don't see why Cleveland couldn't beat Boston the same way OKC could have beaten GS. The root of their decision was the same, they used FA to create the absolute best winning environment for them going forward.

I mean the whole point is to argue the degree of each move, I think there is a major difference that is quite obvious to most people. I am going to try to condense a lot of what you say into a few responses that hopefully highlight some differences we can discuss instead of so much hypothetical. Like last time if I miss something feel free to bring it up again but I wanna try and shorten this up and maybe discuss a few key ideas if possible.




I don't judge just on top talent or talent in a vacuum either, but I don't see how that Miami team was overreacted to. Their first year was their worst but oddly enough they had the easiest path to the Finals. They strolled through the eastern conference playoffs to the tune of 4-1 victories each round and if LeBron shows up that Finals then they're beating Dallas in 4 or 5. That 55% was very fair, the only reason they lost was because LeBron choked. We don't have a crystal ball, so who is to say another bad series for Curry, Durant or Klay isn't on the horizon come Finals time?

Even with that, at the end of the day look what Miami accomplished. They became the first team since the 1982-1985 Lakers to go to four straight Finals. If LeBron doesn't choke, then they are one of 6 teams all time to 3peat and the only one to do that and make 4 consecutive Finals who isn't the Bill Russell Celtics.

The expectations were very real and fair, they just didn't live up to them. Golden State is in a similar position. Are they going to win a title or two? I think that's as close to a lock as you can get. Does that mean they're going to win every year? Absolutely not, just like it didn't for Miami. At the time of the 2010 FA, no one knew who was going to compete with Miami. We all looked at the age of the Lakers and Celtics and thought hell, if the Thunder don't stop them going forward then they're going to win 3-6 straight. Nobody was counting on Dallas to come in, nobody was counting on the Spurs three and four years later.

History has a funny way of working out sometimes. Trust me, I'm a NY Giants fan. ;)



Different, sure, but ultimately looked at in a similar light. The Cavs odds actually didn't change after the Durant signing, it just dropped the odds of everyone else. They're still in the same punchers chance position, but we'll see how that looks throughout the season. Any way you slice it, very few sports teams in history are given astronomical odds like 55% or 66% going in and they never are for no reason.

First of all whether or not you agree with that take I think we can both agree odds aren't necessarily the best way to judge due to what I referenced. The perception/overreaction I talked about can play into it, injuries, history etc. Despite my opinion that Miami was overreacted to and this move not nearly the same reaction (I really don't think it is that close) the numbers are still bigger. You keep saying 11% like that is nothing but given that last statement you seem to agree Miami in itself was already basically an outlier with those odds in a sense. Adding 11% to something like that is pretty big especially considering injuries/having expectations set by Miami might play into the numbers, 66% might be near the max a team could get (don't know the history of these #'s enough to say)?

To look at it in a comparison of them to their competition like we have been talking about this thread they are basically 3 times more likely to win than the next best team in the league. Miami wasn't even 2 times more likely to beat the Lakers. That's prett big, the gap between teams actually doubled. You can keep stating 11% isn't big but given the context and compared to the league I think being 3 times more likely to win than any other team is pretty huge gap. I think this is probably the best way to put it and discuss since you keep bringing up how competition has changed etc so this isn't as bad. This team being 3 times more likely to win than any other team out there is very steep imo so I think compared to their competition this is far worse. If you want to compare just the gap between them and the next team I think calling this move twice as bad as Miami is fair too. Either way given you claim Miami was an outlier to start with that is a major jump.



I just don't think you can ignore the special circumstances in both cases. What happened in 2010 was crazy and rare, and is something that is potentially on the table next year with the cap jump and the far, far more superior FA class. This Durant thing, just as crazy. At the end of the day, LeBron doing what he did in 2010 and Durant doing what he did in 2016 was the only way either were going into the season as clear favorites with very real talk of all-time dynasty potential.

If you're going to leave, why not leave for the best basketball situation? If you can leave for an insanely high potential situation like that, why do you stay where you are to be the 2nd, 3rd or 4th best team in the league? When you break it down like that, they were both in the same situation and made the same decision.

LeBron and Wade said it themselves - It was going to be easy. Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6. They joined with the mindset that they were going to just roll over the league and be the modern Russell Celtics. If the argument is against Durant's competitive nature, how is that any different? It's a retroactive excuse for LeBron just because that Miami team didn't live up to their full expectations. That was mainly due to him in the 2011 Finals and leaving in 2014 for greener pastures yet again.

You want to argue the degrees of weak competitive nature for either? Eh, let's call it a 11% difference in LeBron's favor. :D

To that last point I think it has been covered. GS doubled the gap that Miami had over it's closest competitor and has 3 times better chances to win than the Cavs according to your numbers. Call it 11% with a smiley face to downplay it but I think given context that is big. I have mentioned before about the Clippers so I will stick with them. Cp3/Blake/Jordan imo is seen as better than Green/Klay/Iggy so I feel as though they definitely would have been the favorites. I mean do you really think the gap between Clippers and GS was so big even Durant couldn't close it? If so then you gotta also admit joining the team with that big of an advantage on the league already is riding the coat tales.

They were either that good without him already or you downplay the options he had because obviously adding a top 3 player to a semi contender is pretty huge (for example Lebron joining the Heat when their odds were the same as Orlando before him made them go to large favorites).





I don't think Pau played near the level of Kobe, and for Kyrie he only did offensively. Like Kyrie, Pau didn't have close to the impact of Kobe defensively, let alone offensively. Kobe shut down the entire Celtics offense in 2010 by defending Rondo, sagging off him and wrecking all of their passing lanes. When you add rebounding and positional difference, Kobe averaging 8 rebounds as a SG vs Pau averaging 11.6 as a PF/C isn't much in his favor either.

But that's a completely separate topic.



Yeah, this is something we definitely see differently. I would never begin to compare Love to Odom, even in his Cavs role. Love's concussion in the Finals made him look far more helpless than he is, and so does his team fit there. He wasn't far from leading Minnesota to the playoffs his last year. They went 40-42, lost Pekovic and Martin to a nice chunk of games and had absolutely no depth to make up for those injuries, let alone have a good bench every game. After trading Love, they went from those 40-wins to 16-wins.

I know it's not as epic as the Cavs drop post LeBron in 2010, but it's something that always seems to be forgotten when people are using him as the new Bosh punching bag.

I think Gasol played closer to Kobe than Irving did to James but this is getting to be useless imo (I can definitely back this up statistically if you want). Instead of going back and forth on these topics without much progress let me lay out how I see the Heat/Lakers and GS/Cavs based on perception going into and at the time of free agency. This will be the entire groups of each team and in the case of GS I won't even factor in Durant yet. You can respond to this part with anything you see way different etc and maybe we can figure out where differences are?

Wade/Green/Irving or Gasol. To me the first two are clearly a level above considering Skill set/fit/where they rank as players. While Green to me can be argued as the best 2nd option of the bunch given his skill set I will give Wade the edge due to top talent.

Bosh or Klay/Love/Bynum. I think given their roles you can argue the first two above Love pretty easily due to defensive versatility (although neither elite better than Love). Despite your claims on Bynum at the time many considered him a top 3 C and in the RS when healthy he was close statistically to Klove. Either way again to me it seems Miam/GS at the top then the next 2.

Iggy or TT or Odom/Haslem. I think every other team listed has a great role player to plug in here except the Heat. This is where they fall off in comparison to the others and why I point out how top heavy they were, they don't compare once you get to the 4th players and into depth.

I think the Warriors with Livingston/Zaza/West are arguably the best set of role players remaining with Cle (JR/Jefferson/Frye?) or Lakers (Artest/Fisher/Vuc?), then Heat. Only major difference in coaching probably favors Lakers over everyone with Phil.

So to me when looking at all those teams given top talent/depth/coaching I think there is a pretty strong argument for GS or Miami at the top with Cle/Lakers a bit behind them but close to each other. This kinda goes against what you have been saying about the competition etc. and I think some of the betting gaps talked about earlier show this as well. You can argue GS in the top 2 at every single level and winning at least 1. You can argue Heat at the top for either of the first two and last the rest of the way. Cle/Lakers have mixed results but the real difference is probably Love vs. Bynum and Phil Jackson so while I think Cleveland can be argued as better I don't think it is a big gap (smaller than the gap between these two and the other two for example). These teams as a whole are somewhat similar with the most talented having the worst fit/4th guy/depth/coaching. The 2nd most talented team arguably is the best in those other areas outside of coaching. The team most likely in last had a GOAT level coach etc.

The thing that I am trying to point out whether it is the odds or this way of discussing the perception of talent at the time is that GS was similar to Miami before Durant joined. They already had the elite star, the great secondary players/depth, and had even won a title and won 73 games with that core (while Heat had no set precedence like that). The KEY difference now is that while each of those teams had one star those guys were supporting the current Warriors have Curry AND Durant not listed. I don't understand how you can downplay the differences so much as to call them the same/similar given that. The two of them combined have arguably as much or more help than any ONE guy from those other teams is pretty huge.


Clippers had to clear the way to offer him a max, and even then why would he leave for a group that can't even make the WCF?

Spurs yes, great option but they would have had to do some serious cleaning to get him max money. And yes, the position thing is a big deal. Last year, Aldridge and the Knicks canceled their meeting because the Knicks wanted him to play C. I'm sure he would do it for Durant, but that still means that either Durant or Kawhi is starting at PF and playing the majority of their minutes there and that must have been a big turnoff. That creates too much change of the unknown.

None of those would have been a Miami type situation because none of those make him the clear NBA favorite to be a champion next season and beyond. That's really the difference.

That Cleveland team was tremendous on D and they made guys like KG and Ray Allen look like doo doo. 2010 was worse because they appeased LeBron by signing Shaq and trading for Jamison, and abandoned their elite efficiency on offense, defense and the boards as a result. They went from top 4 in all 3 to top 7 in all 3. Any team that is top 4 in offensive rating, defensive rating and rebounding differential is a pretty damn good team.

But if you want to compare, how is the talent disparity between 2010 Cleveland and 2010 Boston any different than 2016 Oklahoma City and 2016 Warriors? You had Andre Roberson and Dion Waiters playing 30 MPG in the WCF. Who are these guys compared to Andre Iguodala and Harrison Barnes? The Thunder had arguably the worst starting and backup SG in the entire NBA. After trading for Oladipo, who was going to start at PF? Kanter, the guy who had to be buried to the same 12 MPG as Randy Foye against GS in the WCF because his D is just that bad? Illyasova, who is half dead?

But once again, the competition isn't the 2010 Lakers, Celtics and Magic either. I also didn't bash those situations, just said that like the Bulls/Knicks in 2010 they would not have left LeBron in the same insanely dominant situation as Miami did. Being that LeBron and the 2009-10 Cavs entered the season tied with the defending champion Lakers for best odds, don't see why him pairing with rising stars in Rose and Noah or an elite big and great young talent in Amare and Gallinari doesn't propel those teams to the same status as these teams not named Golden State or Cleveland.

Amare was good enough to be on that Suns team who took those Lakers to game 6 in the 2010 WCF, was a top 10 MVP candidate and was 2nd Team All-NBA in 2010-11. Amare's PnR and PnP game that was perfected with Nash was all-time great and that's all he wanted to do as a big. PnR play or floor spacing is all LeBron wants from his bigs. Talking about grading rosters on fit, there probably is no better big man fit with LeBron in NBA history than Amare Stoudemire.

It also was Amare, Gallinari and Chandler in Pringles system. Gallinari at PF as a stretch 4, Chandler giving you efficient scoring and good D at SG and LeBron and Amare PnRing teams to death. Talking on matchups, LeBron and Amare PnR's would have devastated Bynum's horrendous PnR D playing behind right off the court.

I just think that's a convenient excuse to eliminate Chicago in your mind despite them being the insanely viable option that they were. They went on to lead the NBA in wins with 62 and that was with picking up Carlos Boozer. There is no way, shape or form that Carlos Boozer is a better fit than LeBron James for anyone.

The real difference is that the teams in the 2010 free agency all got played by LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Wade and Bosh were going around with cameras filming a documentary about their FA process that thankfully never saw the light of day. I think it's pretty clear that they colluded to do what they did and that's why LeBron quit halfway through the 2010 ECSF like he did. That is the part that is really damning for him.

Again I think you are really downplaying how good a team like the Clippers can be compared to those others. Cp3/Blake/Jordan is much better than anything Lebron had as an option outside of Miami and IMO would have made for the favorites this season. We can discuss this all day but I think it is quite clear Durant had more options and was leaving the better situation. I will ask again if you disagree with that last statement tell me how many teams in the league had a top 5 player and compare Mo/Westy for me. The answer is probably only OKC had 2 top 5 players and that they really aren't close at all.

It seems we will disagree on this part of the context either way so I won't go too much into it but I feel like not acknowledging how good those Clippers would have been or the difference in talent between Westy/Mo goes into my opinion of you downplaying certain aspects here. Again without Lebron the Heat had as good of odds as Orlando to win it all which to me is comparable to the Clippers chances at the least. Adding a top player puts a major boost on teams like that as seen with the Heat. I think he also could have gone to the Spurs and been considered as having the best chance (Kawhi>Green Klay vs. Aldridge and pop being goat level coach favors Spurs at least to me with both having some good depth). To me there were options to clearly make him favorites maybe even similar to Miami if he went Clippers but in the end he wanted to ride the coat tails of that elite team considered as the favorites already without him.



Yes, they were favorites, but there's nothing to suggest that Cleveland couldn't have beaten them again. After all, they were favorites to repeat going into last season and look what good that did them.

To the bold, you can say that for many teams throughout all of sports history. That's why they play the games.


I agree there is still reason to play the games and it is possible Cleveland or someone else wins. We are arguing the extent to which the deck is stacked etc. and how weak of moves these are from a competition standpoint. Again Warriors are 3 times more likely to win than any other team in the NBA right now, Heat weren't even twice as likely as the Lakers. Anything could happen but the extent of the gap from this Warriors team to the next best team is much bigger. Given the rest of the context like joining the already favorites, the team you had just lost to after a 3-1 lead, and the team he left being the only one to have 2 top 5 players the competition standpoint looks even worse than just the odds for Durant.




I don't ignore it either, but ultimately Cleveland beat them and that is something I respect a bit more than vegas odds. After the Finals, there's nothing I wanted to see more than Warriors-Cavs 3, except for something Knicks related of course. :D Now that's changed though, and it's really lame from a basketball history perspective.

Yeah, I'm not really expecting them to have any problems but I want to see them do it first. Even Miami, for all of their woes, could have cruised to a title in year 1. It really didn't take Miami long to find a more than good enough balance, it just took a while for them to become that all-time great level team.

But as I said, Miami wasn't done making moves and that was their odds pretty much with just Wade and Bosh alone. They would have soured past Orlando after another big FA signing, but with LeBron they soured past everyone.

I'm not fighting that idea, just not comparing the situations directly to that level since there are a ton of variables in circumstance. There was no team stacked to the Warriors level in 2010, except for the post FA Miami Heat. There was nowhere that Durant could have went in FA to dwarf the Warriors in talent the way Miami did the Lakers in 2010.

I agree with some but I want to point out the Heat comparison because you keep acting like they should be able to add someone instead of Lebron. I am simply comparing the Heat minus Lebron to GS minus Durant. That seems pretty fair considering GS also had max space for someone else if not Durant maybe Horford etc. When talking about each move in comparison and how stacked their teams were it is fair to point out that without Lebron those heat were considered Orlando level and without Durant the Warriors were considered favorites to win it all anyways. That is a big big difference.

We disagree on things like Cp3/Durant/Blake/Jordan not having more talent than GS at the time but again even so consider the advantage GS would need to have already if that were the case. Durant joining them only furthers that. The point of this entire conversation is to compare each move from a competative standpoint and that is why it makes no sense to me some want to talk in circles to make it seem like they are the same/similar moves. This one is much worse from that perspective and according to the odds you referenced the gap between them and any other team in the league is double what Miami had basically (22% to 44%). I agree that




But that direct comparison is impossible when that Miami team was designed to strike gold in the 2010 FA like they did. I think you can fairly say that Durant's is worse, I just find them to be similar moves.

Why can't we simply compare the teams before Lebron or Durant joined or what they looked like without them? When comparing this from a competitive standpoint the team you join/players around you is a pretty important aspect. Miami having little depth was an issue for the Heat so while I agree losing Lebron magnifies that it was already a problem. Golden State not having that depth issue and already having 3 stars (compared to Lebron being that 3rd star) is kinda the point of why him joining GS is clearly worse.




I think that's just us seeing some things very differently. :cheers:

I agree we see it differently and to me it is you trying to downplay a lot of aspects here to call it similar when it is clearly much worse from a competitive aspect from Durants side. Maybe this post and the response can help clear the differences up better.

mngopher35
07-26-2016, 03:56 PM
Hahaha sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were. I was just talking in general terms there. I'm not sure how it's going to play out, but I think those awards are up for grabs between Curry and Durant going forward.

Yup I gotcha, just wanted to be clear I disagree with that line of thought. I agree those awards are up for grabs now but the performances/stats/pressure of situations are what I think might be hardest to match given the makeup of the Warriors. He will have probably better efficiency but the volume is likely to drop, it has to somewhere if not a little for each.



They both probably will take a hit, and I think Magic and Kareem do too. I think there's a fair amount of people who don't consider either the GOAT because they had each other + Worthy and others. Wade ended up being the one to fall back and take more of the hit in Miami, and clearly Bosh lol. But yeah, gotta let it play out and that's going to be interesting to see.

I think with Wade him falling off with injuries come post season time and the injury to Bosh in 2012 helped Lebron in a sense get all the credit he did. This is why I think people are saying it will take injuries to at least one GS player or something to have those types of opportunities for individual legacy. The gap between them and the rest is larger and Lebron dominated so much individually on their title runs (to the point Larry Bird questioned if 2012 was the best post season he had seen from an individual).

I think in the end Curry might end up the "loser" of this situation while Durant could end up helping himself but we will see how things play out. What I mean by that is given the team around him and his level of play the sky was the limit for him on an individual basis but now he is sharing that with Durant while expectations are way higher (just 3 rings probably won't move him up as much now as it would have). One thing we clearly agree on is that anything is still possible in the end and we need to watch it unfold before truly judging legacies.

lol, please
07-26-2016, 04:23 PM
Kevin Durants GS jersey is the highest selling jersey across the country right now, and he hasn't even played a game.

The fans will get over it, just like they did with good ol Bron Bron.

I'm slackin, I need to order one.

And for the record, nothing about KD's move was weak, it was the smart move, and he said so himself it's a b it's a big challenge to come to a contender and meet expectations. Games still need to be played.

Also, please don't compare this to the Lebron situation...

lol, please
07-26-2016, 04:24 PM
It's funny how I've yet to see a single person in this thread NOT say KDs move was weak, regardless of who they are fans of.

Whats even funnier is that's not enough for fans of another certain player who make it their lifelong mission to defend him at all cost even when the topic isn't about him.
Sorry bud, but how exactly is it not worse, to build a super team? It's definitely worse to assemble on "all star" team during FA, then to go to a good team as a marquee FA.

naps
07-26-2016, 06:25 PM
KD ain't embracing ****. He sounds like a girl stuck and confused at her puberty. LeBron owned everything and evolved into the greatest all around basketball player of all time. He became the league's most versatile defender and finally started taking advantage of his gifts in the post and became a 40% three point shooter. He successfully embraced the villain role while KD looks lost. Stop comparing them. Like I said KD is getting enough flakes like any other all-star would but LeBron got historical vitriol because he is one of the most polarizing athletes of all time. Not a fair comparison.

tp13baby
07-26-2016, 06:53 PM
I will never grade KD based on how many rings he ends up with.

FOXHOUND
07-26-2016, 08:49 PM
Let's go on this merry-go-around one more time. :laugh2: :D


First of all whether or not you agree with that take I think we can both agree odds aren't necessarily the best way to judge due to what I referenced. The perception/overreaction I talked about can play into it, injuries, history etc. Despite my opinion that Miami was overreacted to and this move not nearly the same reaction (I really don't think it is that close) the numbers are still bigger. You keep saying 11% like that is nothing but given that last statement you seem to agree Miami in itself was already basically an outlier with those odds in a sense. Adding 11% to something like that is pretty big especially considering injuries/having expectations set by Miami might play into the numbers, 66% might be near the max a team could get (don't know the history of these #'s enough to say)?

Was Miami overreacted to, or is it thanks to hindsight and them not succeeding to the level of consensus back in 2010? Still don't see how they were overreacted to when they were one LeBron Finals choke away from being the most accomplished team since Bill Russell's Celtics in their 4-years together.

I didn't say that 11% was nothing, just that it isn't as big a difference as some people are trying to make it sound. Nobody was surprised that Miami went to 4 straight Finals and won 2 of them. The only surprise was that they only won two. What is the forecast for this Warriors team? Back in 2010 everyone thought that Miami was going to run off 3-6 straight.


To look at it in a comparison of them to their competition like we have been talking about this thread they are basically 3 times more likely to win than the next best team in the league. Miami wasn't even 2 times more likely to beat the Lakers. That's prett big, the gap between teams actually doubled. You can keep stating 11% isn't big but given the context and compared to the league I think being 3 times more likely to win than any other team is pretty huge gap. I think this is probably the best way to put it and discuss since you keep bringing up how competition has changed etc so this isn't as bad. This team being 3 times more likely to win than any other team out there is very steep imo so I think compared to their competition this is far worse. If you want to compare just the gap between them and the next team I think calling this move twice as bad as Miami is fair too. Either way given you claim Miami was an outlier to start with that is a major jump.

Sorry, I don't look at the math that way. 66% is 11% higher than 55%, those are their odds. Those are just odds from this point on the outlook of the entire season. It's the Warriors vs the field, not just one or two teams. That accounts for a ton of variable factors like injuries or surprise teams. As the season progresses the odds change as a lot of those answers clear themselves up.

Take this, for example - http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2016-nba-title-odds-vegas-says-lebrons-cavaliers-are-favorites/

During the 2015 Finals, the oddmakers were slotting the Cavs as the 2016 favorites. I mean, funnily enough they were right and for the exact reasons they listed. Kyrie and Love were healthy, or healthier in Love's case since he was actually able to play, and they added some role players in Jefferson and Frye to help them be deeper for the playoff run.

Now take these odds from May 26th, 2016 - http://espn.go.com/chalk/story/_/id/13896086/nba-latest-2015-16-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

By then, the Cavs closed the gap on the Warriors on the odds to an even draw. And yeah, once again, they turned out to be right as the series went 7 and down to the wire.

Odds aren't perfect for actual predictions, of course, but they represent the sports world opinion as a whole. When talking abut what the perception is, that's pretty much the best way to gauge it.


To that last point I think it has been covered. GS doubled the gap that Miami had over it's closest competitor and has 3 times better chances to win than the Cavs according to your numbers. Call it 11% with a smiley face to downplay it but I think given context that is big. I have mentioned before about the Clippers so I will stick with them. Cp3/Blake/Jordan imo is seen as better than Green/Klay/Iggy so I feel as though they definitely would have been the favorites. I mean do you really think the gap between Clippers and GS was so big even Durant couldn't close it? If so then you gotta also admit joining the team with that big of an advantage on the league already is riding the coat tales.

I think you conveniently ignored my point about the actual words that came out of LeBron and Wade's mouthes. If we're talking about the competitive nature of each, I don't see how we ignore that LeBron and Wade openly talked about how easy they were going to roll over the league and win more than 6 championships together.

I disagree about CP3/Blake/Jordan, because in my book those three have lead nothing but great teams on paper. Sure, theoretically it's possible that they could have leap frogged as favorites on the odds. But once again, how is that any different than Chicago? Derrick Rose went on the win league MVP and led his team to an NBA high 62-wins with Carlos Boozer in LeBron's theoretical place while making the ECF before losing to LeBron's super stacked Heat. I don't know why you ignore that, but the Clippers have never done anything close to that. The highest they have been is 3rd highest record in the league and the furthest they have gotten is the 2nd round. Simple facts.

But what your saying is that he should have joined a team that blew a 3-1 lead vs the Houston Rockets, including an enormous 4th quarter lead in game 6 when the Rockets came back with a 40-11 4th by taking Harden off the court? And talking about team attitude and turmoil and such, you've got Blake Griffin punching out an equipment manager. I mean, doesn't really inspire confidence in them winning it all.


They were either that good without him already or you downplay the options he had because obviously adding a top 3 player to a semi contender is pretty huge (for example Lebron joining the Heat when their odds were the same as Orlando before him made them go to large favorites).

I understand how good GS was before Durant, but I also understand that there is no parallel for GS's situation in the 2010 offseason. The closest parallel is what LeBron did in Miami, joining proven champion and Finals MVP Dwyane Wade and another top 15-20 player in Bosh. Again, you're assuming that LeBron would not have joined the Lakers or Celtics if it were financially possible when he chose to join a team who by his own words were so dominant that they would go on to win 6+ championships.

You seem to be writing your own narrative on LeBron's mindset to defend his decision, when it was clearly made with the intention of creating the absolute easiest path possible. That's exactly what Durant did, the circumstances were just different.


Wade/Green/Irving or Gasol. To me the first two are clearly a level above considering Skill set/fit/where they rank as players. While Green to me can be argued as the best 2nd option of the bunch given his skill set I will give Wade the edge due to top talent.

Dwyane Wade is far and away a better player than Draymond Green. He was a top 4 player in the NBA in 2010. There is no single player who benefits more from the talent and system on Golden State than Green does. Wade was coming off back-to-back 1st Team All-NBA and 2nd All-Defensive selections and won 1 scoring title. You're judging team role and fit while ignoring the top player and their own short comings to mesh with other players.

LeBron, for example, clearly cannot co-exist with a post up big or just simply chooses not to. In the case of guys like Klay and Green, Steph Curry may be the most dominate player ever versus how little he needs to dominate the ball to be that player. Those guys would not be doing what they've done the past two years if you replaced Curry with LeBron. Well, I think Klay would be fine but Green would not be handling the ball or posting up nearly as much. That's just a reality and that's something that's going to come into play with Durant now there.


Bosh or Klay/Love/Bynum. I think given their roles you can argue the first two above Love pretty easily due to defensive versatility (although neither elite better than Love). Despite your claims on Bynum at the time many considered him a top 3 C and in the RS when healthy he was close statistically to Klove. Either way again to me it seems Miam/GS at the top then the next 2.

Again, this comes in you ignoring that Bosh and Love were/are limited that much because of how LeBron plays.

Bynum doesn't belong in the conversation with these other players. I think saying "many" considered him a top 3 C is an outright exaggeration when he wasn't even making any All-Star teams, let alone All-NBA teams. 08-09 had Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Pau Gasol, who finished games at C to begin with, as guys who made All-NBA teams. 09-10 had Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, Tim Duncan and Andrew Bogut as All-NBA players. Bynum's breakout season came in 2010-11.

You would have an easier time arguing that Kevin Love is a top PF, being that he was 2nd Team All-NBA before joining the Cavs. Same for Bosh, who himself had previously made an All-NBA 2nd Team and in general has made every Eastern All-Star team since 2006.


Iggy or TT or Odom/Haslem. I think every other team listed has a great role player to plug in here except the Heat. This is where they fall off in comparison to the others and why I point out how top heavy they were, they don't compare once you get to the 4th players and into depth.

The 2010 Heat were definitely the most top heavy of their teams, before adding great role players like Ray Allen and Shane Battier. Again, comparing guys like Iggy and TT to Odom and Haslem, when those two are far superior, further illustrates the difference in talent on the top teams in the NBA today compared to 2010. But again, you're directly comparing rosters in two completely different times of the league and you can't do that. You're bringing in the 2016 Warriors and Cavs to help make the 2010 Heat look less dominant in talent than they actually were.

Simply put, to compare the talent in Kobe, Pau and Odom to LeBron, Wade and Bosh is just a joke.

LeBron James, arguably best player in the NBA and back-to-back MVP. Dwyane Wade, proven NBA champion and Finals MVP who was a top 5 player. Chris Bosh, perennial All-Star and top 15-20 player.

Lakers had Kobe, arguably best player in the NBA, back-to-back champion and Finals MVP. Pau Gasol, All-NBA 3rd team player who was arguably a top ten player. Lamar Odom, was he even a top 30 player? Top 25-30, at best.

Boston didn't have a single All-NBA player, their best player or two were top 15-20.

Orlando had Dwight Howard, top 5 player in the NBA and DPOY, Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis, who were what? Top 25-30? 30-35? They lost Hedo Turkoglu that free agency and even so he wasn't anything special either.

Those were the contenders.

OKC had Durant, top 5 player in the NBA, and a ton of young talent but were currently the 8th seed and not yet a contender. Westbrook wasn't an All-NBA player yet.

So really, what are talking about here? Miami was insanely stacked heading into the 2010-11 season and to suggest anything otherwise is ridiculous.


The thing that I am trying to point out whether it is the odds or this way of discussing the perception of talent at the time is that GS was similar to Miami before Durant joined.

http://espn.go.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

If you're going to directly compare the odds, then compare the odds. Golden State opened as 40% favorites. You said that the 11% difference between 2010 Miami and post-Durant GS was fairly large, so what is that 15% difference between pre-Durant GS and 2010 Miami?

Cleveland opened at 5/2 and remained there even after Durant signed. Also, 5/2 is actually 28.6% odds, not 22%. My mistake for misquoting it before, late night posting problems lol.


Again I think you are really downplaying how good a team like the Clippers can be compared to those others. Cp3/Blake/Jordan is much better than anything Lebron had as an option outside of Miami and IMO would have made for the favorites this season. We can discuss this all day but I think it is quite clear Durant had more options and was leaving the better situation.

I disagree, I don't see how the Clippers are better than the 2010-11 Bulls. With Carlos Boozer, they went on to lead the league in wins with 62, make the ECF before losing to LeBron's super stacked Heat and Rose won MVP. The Clippers have never had the leagues best record, have never won 60-games, have never made it to the WCF and don't have any players who have won MVP.


I will ask again if you disagree with that last statement tell me how many teams in the league had a top 5 player and compare Mo/Westy for me. The answer is probably only OKC had 2 top 5 players and that they really aren't close at all.

Why would I compare Mo and Westbrook, what does that have to do with anything? Isn't that only relevant if we're discussing whether or not both should have stayed with their respective teams?

OKC opened the 2015-16 season with the same title odds as the defending champ GS. Cleveland opened the 2009-10 season with the same title odds as the defending champ Lakers.

Look back to those odds I posted, where does OKC place to open FA under the assumption that Durant stays? 4th best, behind GS, Cleveland and SA. How is that any different than the 2010-11 Cavs if LeBron stayed, who at worst would have opened at 4th best behind LA, Boston and Orlando?

Why is it easier to assume that OKC could have beaten SA again and GS, but not that Cleveland could have beaten Boston and Orlando? Cleveland was up 2-1 on Boston in the 2010 ECSF before LeBron had a crappy game 4 and then quit for the rest of the series.


in the end he wanted to ride the coat tails of that elite team considered as the favorites already without him.

Durant is not going to be riding any coat tails, he is going to be one of the coat tails with Curry.



I agree with some but I want to point out the Heat comparison because you keep acting like they should be able to add someone instead of Lebron. I am simply comparing the Heat minus Lebron to GS minus Durant. That seems pretty fair considering GS also had max space for someone else if not Durant maybe Horford etc. When talking about each move in comparison and how stacked their teams were it is fair to point out that without Lebron those heat were considered Orlando level and without Durant the Warriors were considered favorites to win it all anyways. That is a big big difference.

Why would they stop adding talent when their roster was bare from maximizing cap space? If LeBron went back on his collusion and didn't go there, were they just going to put out a roster of Wade, Bosh, Haslem and no one?

OK, that's what they were considered without Durant and LeBron. The Heat with LeBron were far more favored to win than GS was without Durant. No other FA in this class was remotely close to as impactful as Durant is, just like someone like Boozer wouldn't have compared to LeBron in 2010.


Why can't we simply compare the teams before Lebron or Durant joined or what they looked like without them? When comparing this from a competitive standpoint the team you join/players around you is a pretty important aspect. Miami having little depth was an issue for the Heat so while I agree losing Lebron magnifies that it was already a problem. Golden State not having that depth issue and already having 3 stars (compared to Lebron being that 3rd star) is kinda the point of why him joining GS is clearly worse.

Why would we ignore the very words that came our of LeBron and Wade's own mouth about how easy it was going to be and how they were going to win 6+ championships? Why would we ignore them completely dwarfing the NBA in talent by having a 2nd best player who was better than all but Kobe, LeBron and Durant and by having a 3rd best player in Bosh who was better than most teams 2nd best player?

What exactly was competitive about that?


I agree we see it differently and to me it is you trying to downplay a lot of aspects here to call it similar when it is clearly much worse from a competitive aspect from Durants side. Maybe this post and the response can help clear the differences up better.

I think you're trying to downplay a lot of aspects of how insanely stacked Miami was, even in year 1 before they added their awesome role players.

mngopher35
07-26-2016, 11:13 PM
Let's go on this merry-go-around one more time. :laugh2: :D

Was Miami overreacted to, or is it thanks to hindsight and them not succeeding to the level of consensus back in 2010? Still don't see how they were overreacted to when they were one LeBron Finals choke away from being the most accomplished team since Bill Russell's Celtics in their 4-years together.

I didn't say that 11% was nothing, just that it isn't as big a difference as some people are trying to make it sound. Nobody was surprised that Miami went to 4 straight Finals and won 2 of them. The only surprise was that they only won two. What is the forecast for this Warriors team? Back in 2010 everyone thought that Miami was going to run off 3-6 straight.

I think they were both a great team and overreacted to. Even when they won it was far from a cakewalk like people claimed it would be at the time. 11% is big when you put it into context, which for some reason you tried to ignore below.



Sorry, I don't look at the math that way. 66% is 11% higher than 55%, those are their odds. Those are just odds from this point on the outlook of the entire season. It's the Warriors vs the field, not just one or two teams. That accounts for a ton of variable factors like injuries or surprise teams. As the season progresses the odds change as a lot of those answers clear themselves up.

Take this, for example - http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2016-nba-title-odds-vegas-says-lebrons-cavaliers-are-favorites/

During the 2015 Finals, the oddmakers were slotting the Cavs as the 2016 favorites. I mean, funnily enough they were right and for the exact reasons they listed. Kyrie and Love were healthy, or healthier in Love's case since he was actually able to play, and they added some role players in Jefferson and Frye to help them be deeper for the playoff run.

Now take these odds from May 26th, 2016 - http://espn.go.com/chalk/story/_/id/13896086/nba-latest-2015-16-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

By then, the Cavs closed the gap on the Warriors on the odds to an even draw. And yeah, once again, they turned out to be right as the series went 7 and down to the wire.

Odds aren't perfect for actual predictions, of course, but they represent the sports world opinion as a whole. When talking abut what the perception is, that's pretty much the best way to gauge it.

I am trying to point out our differences in opinion and that 11% you keep claiming and the entire context behind it can't just get ignored because "thats not the way you look at math" or whatever. We are talking about the competitive advantage one team has over its competitors. We have mentioned Lakers/Boston/Miami in 10 and Cle/Warriors now because those are the top competitors we are comparing and that is why you need to also do that with the odds. You have been saying this whole time part of the reason Miami is worse is because teams today are worse so GS was just making up the difference with extra talent. However these numbers help show that isn't the case as the Warriors are 3 times as likely to win as the next best team (Cavs) while Miami was less than double as likely to beat the lakers. Just because you want to simply say you don't look at it like that doesn't mean that isn't the context of the situation, you were the one who provided the numbers. I can't force you to look at the entire picture but it is very important in us seeing things differently.

I agree it is an alright gauge but you can't just ignore the context surrounding it when you use it and it doesn't change the potential influences I mentioned either. Every team will technically have some sort of chance each year and injuries will always play a part so no team will ever get to 100% or probably even 75-80% etc for those reasons. The gap between GS and their top competition is much different than Miami to the Lakers even just based on the numbers provided and that is an important point I think you keep brushing off for some reason (you can do better than that isn't how I see math, that comparison is what we have focused on the whole time throughout other topics it certainly matters).


I think you conveniently ignored my point about the actual words that came out of LeBron and Wade's mouthes. If we're talking about the competitive nature of each, I don't see how we ignore that LeBron and Wade openly talked about how easy they were going to roll over the league and win more than 6 championships together.

Lol I hope this isn't supposed to be some serious point? Athletes can be cocky. Durant just said he took the hard path or whatever to lessen the blow back but I don't believe that either. I don't really care how cocky these guys are at all, I have said Lebron is a douche plenty of times. We are discussing the difference in competition, are we talking about the pep rally again?


I disagree about CP3/Blake/Jordan, because in my book those three have lead nothing but great teams on paper. Sure, theoretically it's possible that they could have leap frogged as favorites on the odds. But once again, how is that any different than Chicago? Derrick Rose went on the win league MVP and led his team to an NBA high 62-wins with Carlos Boozer in LeBron's theoretical place while making the ECF before losing to LeBron's super stacked Heat. I don't know why you ignore that, but the Clippers have never done anything close to that. The highest they have been is 3rd highest record in the league and the furthest they have gotten is the 2nd round. Simple facts.

But what your saying is that he should have joined a team that blew a 3-1 lead vs the Houston Rockets, including an enormous 4th quarter lead in game 6 when the Rockets came back with a 40-11 4th by taking Harden off the court? And talking about team attitude and turmoil and such, you've got Blake Griffin punching out an equipment manager. I mean, doesn't really inspire confidence in them winning it all.

I am simply pointing out that Clippers would have been favorites with him to counter what you said. I definitely think they would so we disagree on that point.



I understand how good GS was before Durant, but I also understand that there is no parallel for GS's situation in the 2010 offseason. The closest parallel is what LeBron did in Miami, joining proven champion and Finals MVP Dwyane Wade and another top 15-20 player in Bosh. Again, you're assuming that LeBron would not have joined the Lakers or Celtics if it were financially possible when he chose to join a team who by his own words were so dominant that they would go on to win 6+ championships.

You seem to be writing your own narrative on LeBron's mindset to defend his decision, when it was clearly made with the intention of creating the absolute easiest path possible. That's exactly what Durant did, the circumstances were just different.

I agree there is no same situation out there and it is why people keep trying to show how different this is. It seems you understand to some degree if you can point out there is no same opportunity before this to do something this drastic. I will say that Lebron joining the Lakers at the time likely would have given them a gap over the rest of the league closer to this so from a basketball perspective like you said Lebron actually did not take the top choice. In fact Boston probably gets similar results too. From a getting paid while having the most talent he chose the best situation though just like Durant. Durant just had a different opportunity to ride coat tails and took it, that doesn't change the degree of his competitive advantage though.

In the end Lebron still formed a new talented team (who without him was not favorite) to take on the best teams. Durant joined the already favorite to win separating the competitive advantage much further. He was the only one with that opportunity to do so while getting paid, I can agree there.




Dwyane Wade is far and away a better player than Draymond Green. He was a top 4 player in the NBA in 2010. There is no single player who benefits more from the talent and system on Golden State than Green does. Wade was coming off back-to-back 1st Team All-NBA and 2nd All-Defensive selections and won 1 scoring title. You're judging team role and fit while ignoring the top player and their own short comings to mesh with other players.

LeBron, for example, clearly cannot co-exist with a post up big or just simply chooses not to. In the case of guys like Klay and Green, Steph Curry may be the most dominate player ever versus how little he needs to dominate the ball to be that player. Those guys would not be doing what they've done the past two years if you replaced Curry with LeBron. Well, I think Klay would be fine but Green would not be handling the ball or posting up nearly as much. That's just a reality and that's something that's going to come into play with Durant now there.



Again, this comes in you ignoring that Bosh and Love were/are limited that much because of how LeBron plays.

Bynum doesn't belong in the conversation with these other players. I think saying "many" considered him a top 3 C is an outright exaggeration when he wasn't even making any All-Star teams, let alone All-NBA teams. 08-09 had Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Pau Gasol, who finished games at C to begin with, as guys who made All-NBA teams. 09-10 had Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, Tim Duncan and Andrew Bogut as All-NBA players. Bynum's breakout season came in 2010-11.

You would have an easier time arguing that Kevin Love is a top PF, being that he was 2nd Team All-NBA before joining the Cavs. Same for Bosh, who himself had previously made an All-NBA 2nd Team and in general has made every Eastern All-Star team since 2006.

The thing is that any time you have 3 first options some of their games are going to be changed no matter who it is. When judging the talent/fit around players the skill sets they have become important and it is why I referenced Green as a great fit due to his all around skill set. I agree Wade is better that is why I ranked him first but Green is a top 10 or so player who fits very well (compared to 4th with overlapping skill sets that isn't horrible and GS wins almost every other category to make up for it). You claiming Green/Klay couldn't have done that off Lebron is a stretch though, it just would have been in a different way. Wade had very high usages next to Lebron so it is definitely possible to get touches with him, many times he even sets them up to be good touches for you. Green being an elite defender is more helpful in a secondary role than Wade/Bosh's playmaking ability next to two ball dominant play makers. You attribute some of this to the players but the fit of skills is what made GS so great.




The 2010 Heat were definitely the most top heavy of their teams, before adding great role players like Ray Allen and Shane Battier. Again, comparing guys like Iggy and TT to Odom and Haslem, when those two are far superior, further illustrates the difference in talent on the top teams in the NBA today compared to 2010. But again, you're directly comparing rosters in two completely different times of the league and you can't do that. You're bringing in the 2016 Warriors and Cavs to help make the 2010 Heat look less dominant in talent than they actually were.

Simply put, to compare the talent in Kobe, Pau and Odom to LeBron, Wade and Bosh is just a joke.

LeBron James, arguably best player in the NBA and back-to-back MVP. Dwyane Wade, proven NBA champion and Finals MVP who was a top 5 player. Chris Bosh, perennial All-Star and top 15-20 player.

Lakers had Kobe, arguably best player in the NBA, back-to-back champion and Finals MVP. Pau Gasol, All-NBA 3rd team player who was arguably a top ten player. Lamar Odom, was he even a top 30 player? Top 25-30, at best.

Boston didn't have a single All-NBA player, their best player or two were top 15-20.

Orlando had Dwight Howard, top 5 player in the NBA and DPOY, Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis, who were what? Top 25-30? 30-35? They lost Hedo Turkoglu that free agency and even so he wasn't anything special either.

Those were the contenders.

OKC had Durant, top 5 player in the NBA, and a ton of young talent but were currently the 8th seed and not yet a contender. Westbrook wasn't an All-NBA player yet.

So really, what are talking about here? Miami was insanely stacked heading into the 2010-11 season and to suggest anything otherwise is ridiculous.


Miami was top loaded but you again ignore Bynum and stop after 3 players. That extra depth, better fit, and better coaching all lessen the gap the top 3 players had, why are we ignoring it. It is reflected in the betting odds you keep referring to which is why I think you try and ignore comparing the competition there while bringing it up again now.

Bynum in 2010 RS had a higher PER and WS/48 than Love this year as the 3rd options. I can agree if you want to say he wasn't as good overall but given their role/fit/perception at the times of each FA it isn't like they were that far out of each others leagues. I think having Phil helps cover that at least a little bit and the difference isn't extreme as you try to make it (they are somewhat comparable and in fact statistically he comes out looking solid). You are underrating this Lakers team and or overrating the heat based on top talent it seems to me. Yes Gasol/Bynum are were not considered at the level of Wade/Bosh but considering Odom/Artest/Fisher are much better than Haslem/Chalmers/Bibby and they have the GOAT coach it just feels like you exaggerate it some.

The main point which never really is brought up by you is the fact that Cle/Lakers look pretty close (going against your idea that these teams GS has to be are so extremely better) while GS matches up well with the Heat even before Durant. That is what I was trying to show there.

I just looked up some of the old PSD votings and you were right that Bynum was 2nd after the 2011 season. Not that this is the end all of perception talk but based on psd votes in 2010 off season Pau was voted the best PF (Bosh 4th), Bynum the #5 Center, and Ron Artest the #10 SF. I didn't see Odom on there but basically the point is these guys were seen as very talented overall at the time. Pau tied Duncan for being voted #10 best player overall in the NBA (as far as I can tell they stopped at 10).


http://espn.go.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

If you're going to directly compare the odds, then compare the odds. Golden State opened as 40% favorites. You said that the 11% difference between 2010 Miami and post-Durant GS was fairly large, so what is that 15% difference between pre-Durant GS and 2010 Miami?

Cleveland opened at 5/2 and remained there even after Durant signed. Also, 5/2 is actually 28.6% odds, not 22%. My mistake for misquoting it before, late night posting problems lol.

Edit with that article I looked around a little and updated the numbers in my edit below as well. Based on the odds you gave me for Heat/Lakers compared to the opening odds for GS/Cavs they are actually pretty similar at 3/2 compared to 5/2 this year opening odds (about 12% difference) and 9/5 compared to 3/1 for Heat/Lakers (about 11% difference).




I disagree, I don't see how the Clippers are better than the 2010-11 Bulls. With Carlos Boozer, they went on to lead the league in wins with 62, make the ECF before losing to LeBron's super stacked Heat and Rose won MVP. The Clippers have never had the leagues best record, have never won 60-games, have never made it to the WCF and don't have any players who have won MVP.

Do you think Chris Paul is better or worse than Rose was? I am talking about how good the players were considered to be at the time of free agency not what happened during that season. We don't seem to agree on this and it isn't a huge factor in the key discussion of how much Durant stacked the deck in comparison so we can drop this and agree to disagree.


Why would I compare Mo and Westbrook, what does that have to do with anything? Isn't that only relevant if we're discussing whether or not both should have stayed with their respective teams?

OKC opened the 2015-16 season with the same title odds as the defending champ GS. Cleveland opened the 2009-10 season with the same title odds as the defending champ Lakers.

Look back to those odds I posted, where does OKC place to open FA under the assumption that Durant stays? 4th best, behind GS, Cleveland and SA. How is that any different than the 2010-11 Cavs if LeBron stayed, who at worst would have opened at 4th best behind LA, Boston and Orlando?

Why is it easier to assume that OKC could have beaten SA again and GS, but not that Cleveland could have beaten Boston and Orlando? Cleveland was up 2-1 on Boston in the 2010 ECSF before LeBron had a crappy game 4 and then quit for the rest of the series.

I guess I just rely way less on odds than you do when I compare to the past as there are tons of variables involved in those that I don't necessarily know what played into it. I can gladly discuss why Westbrook is far better than Mo Williams and how that is important when judging the help next to a player. My point is that Durant had much more talent around him during his time in OKC and left for a better situation than what Lebron did. I think you exaggerate the differences between then and now as I tried to show in the comparison between the 4 teams. Cle and Lakers championship teams aren't drastically different in perceived talent at the time imo.

We can agree to disagree on the talent gap but I really think pointing out one had Westbrook and the other had Mo Williams is quite fair. I can name tons of teams that won with as little talent as Westy as the next best player (top 5 guy) but I can't names tons of teams throughout history that won who would have had Mo as the 2nd best.



Durant is not going to be riding any coat tails, he is going to be one of the coat tails with Curry.

They already did it without him though so he kinda is. He will be one of the best players but he is joining a team that has proven capable without him.



Why would they stop adding talent when their roster was bare from maximizing cap space? If LeBron went back on his collusion and didn't go there, were they just going to put out a roster of Wade, Bosh, Haslem and no one?

OK, that's what they were considered without Durant and LeBron. The Heat with LeBron were far more favored to win than GS was without Durant. No other FA in this class was remotely close to as impactful as Durant is, just like someone like Boozer wouldn't have compared to LeBron in 2010.

Why would Warriors stop adding talent when they had that much cap? Horford is better than Boozer or anyone else the Heat would have added in place of Lebron in 2010 no? I agree that Heat would have had other possible moves but not like getting Lebron. Just like GS had other possible moves just not like getting Durant. Either way that Miami team without Lebron was not favorite to win he put them over the top himself with his addition. Durant just piled onto the GS aready perceived advantage.


Why would we ignore the very words that came our of LeBron and Wade's own mouth about how easy it was going to be and how they were going to win 6+ championships? Why would we ignore them completely dwarfing the NBA in talent by having a 2nd best player who was better than all but Kobe, LeBron and Durant and by having a 3rd best player in Bosh who was better than most teams 2nd best player?

What exactly was competitive about that?

Two players getting cocky knowing they have a very talented team? Do you really take the words of these athletes as some holy grail as if it must have been true, especially during a pep rally? Remember my first post how I mentioned this point gets way overblown by some, looks like you might be the type I was talking about. Again Durant said he took the hard path and I don't believe that either. What these guys have to say means very little to the discussion of how different the gaps in talent were from their team to their competition.


I think you're trying to downplay a lot of aspects of how insanely stacked Miami was, even in year 1 before they added their awesome role players.

They were stacked but not to the extent of the Warriors, even when compared to their competition. While I seem to rely less on odds to make my point I think you ignoring the gaps between teams and the entire context is probably the most obvious example of what I mean when I say downplaying things. We have been comparing them to their competition throughout with you being the main one bringing up how you can't compare like that and need to use odds because talent has changed etc. Well the odds say the gap between Mia/Lakers is half that of Cle/GS when comparing their chances at a title.

Edit: I just looked back at that article you quoted and checked the #'s and am curious as to how 9/5 odds are 55% or how 3/1 is considered 33% chance? I bet a little bit but those don't make sense to me so I will explain it from a betting perspective below at the least (Not sure if this is what they were trying to do or not).

I don't exactly know but what I can do is tell you that 9/5 is actually a 35.7% win% needed to break even while 3/1 needs a 25% win% to break even. To break even on the Warriors at 2/3 it needs a 60% win% to break even while Cavs at 5/2 need 28.6% win% to break even. Not sure if that is what they were referencing but that is what it takes at those odds. So the % they need to win (aka their expectations) in order to have the bettor to break even is the percentages listed above. The gap between Heat/Warriors would then be 24.3% (so bigger than stated before by over double) and the gap between Cavs/GS is about 3 times as big as the gap between Heat/Lakers was so again compared to competition still much worse. So your % numbers might have been off but if this is what you were referencing with those % it is even worse than what you initially showed it would seem given those odds for each.

For example if you put down $100 on Miami at those odds (9/5) you likely have a +180 betting line so if you win a $100 bet you win $180 more. The current money line for the Warriors at those odds (2/3) is likely about a -150. I bet when it was -140 on my site and even then for every $100 bet it was to win $71ish so less than half. It really is a big difference at least when it comes to betting/odds and imo given the entire context as well.

Chronz
07-27-2016, 04:40 PM
Hmm, interesting because I would have given Durant the same amount of crap. How is joining LeBron, who just gained back his title as best player in the NBA and is a clear top 5 player of all time, not worse than joining Curry? How is Kyrie + Love + Thompson all that different from Klay + Green + Iggy?
See now that would be a comparison worth debating, not the Heatles, because its joining the 2 teams that have already proven capable of winning without you. Like regardless of how we feel about injuries and what not, you cannot deny that both of these particular teams are of the utmost championship caliber level. There's not even a discussion which 2 teams have been the most successful the past 2 seasons and in many ways, you could argue GS being the more impressive of the 2 despite barely losing last year. Its not that different, but creating a new power of your own? That takes more work than hopping onto an established core.



After the Durant signing? Absolutely, Golden State really does deserve those insane 2/3 odds. It's going to take a colossal effort from Cleveland and maybe some fortune against Golden State for them to win. But again look at 2011. Cleveland is not nearly as outmatched as those Mavs were against Miami and they didn't have the psychological advantage of already beating that team prior. Cleveland will not be intimidated in the slightest and all the pressure in the world will be on Golden State. That's a good recipe for an upset. All it takes is Durant or Curry to choke like they just did in the WCF and Finals and pull a 2011 LeBron to open that door.

I think its cliche to suggest its a recipe for an upset simply because you want to point to the time a player had a bad series.

Look at the situations they are joining. This isn't a shallow first year experiment trying to figure it out on the fly. The Heats offensive mantra was basically "get stops, do what you want" or something to that effect. GS has come a long way in establishing a defensive culture, then growing into an offensive dynamo and champion into a record breaking core that just upgraded Barnes into KD. A guy who by all accounts should fit in seamlessly. Do you think Dallas beats this GS team that just lost to your fav team? What about that Dallas team facing the same core only with KD. The talent KD is joining is far greater and he could've been favored anywhere he went just like Bron, the difference is Bron carved his own path and revived a franchise from the depths of 1st round purgatory.

The best way I can put it to you is like this, given the advantage of hindsight, do you really think the Heat overachieved when they defeated OKC just because the Vegas odds suggested it? I dont, if you cant understand why then I guess I would have to ask just how exactly do you identify when to go against Vegas? Yes Bron underachieved, in similar ways to Curry this year, thing is, you now have to hope GS has BOTH Curry and KD "choking", you really think thats gonna happen? (PS. Cuban hates when people say Bron choked rather than credit the talent on the Mavs). The Dubs were so close to winning a chip despite so much going wrong and they just added KD. I dont care what fluid barometer you use (unless you can break down the formula for me), if you think the Heat without Bron stand any chance at winning much less breaking history, then I cant continue this conversation until I get some booz in me.


Yes but I also look at their competition. Philly was ridiculously outmatched vs those Lakers so nothing about their decimation surprised me.

Exactly, and yet they had the most success against the Lakers than any other playoff team. Thats how good Kobe and Shaq were that run, its unprecedented **** man (+they were able to add Fisher who had rested the entire RS while recovering from injury and coincidentally having the greatest playoff showing of his life). Bron and Kyrie fall well short of that, especially when you consider they played at that level consistently, not just for a few game stretches.


I would have to really go in and look at many series for a complete list, but after what I witnessed I would say yeah arguably the best that I've seen off the top of my head. I haven't seen a duo dominate a Finals like that since the Shaq and Kobe days and that's enough of a compliment in itself.
Im glad its good enough for you but for me, its just the first one that comes to mind that I KNOW they cant touch. I would agree that its not much of a diss, thats an all-time run but I would have to be convinced Bron and Kyrie were on that kind of platform because Im not even sure where they rank overall. Its definitely up there, but so long as we are clear theres a clear tier gap between Shaqobe then we're good here.


My counter would simply be that none of those other guys were faced against a 73-win defending champ juggernaut. They didn't "let" themselves get into a hole, they were underdogs going into that Finals. That's something very large in their favor that the Shaq-Kobe and Jordan-Pippen duos never had to deal with. Magic and Kareem were sometimes not the favorite going in, because the 80's were all about super teams, but they were obviously never stacked against a 73-win team like that.
I dont see how being an under dog is a good thing much less a "very large" advantage. Especially given the nature of GS suspension and injuries. Barely scraping bye isn't more impressive than being favored and then thoroughly proving why you should have been. Your point about their RS success is taken but it doesn't offset the superior production and winning of other duos on its own.



If the Warriors won this past Finals then they are being looked at as the greatest team of all-time. No other duo can say they were the David to that Goliath and that's major bonus points.

That conversation would revolve around the fact that they limped to the finish line and despite so much going wrong, won it all. Its a curious case, but since you love Vegas lines, that "greatest team of all time" was going to have slightly lesser odds to win the title if KD had simply resigned with OKC....


Vegas odds are fluid but they illustrate what the sports world opinion is about teams at large. They hold more weight than me just saying that I thought Miami was a crazy stacked super team.

Pretty sure they illustrate where the masses would gamble, do you dabble? We have the advantage of hindsight here, we dont have that yet with KD, which is why I've laid out multiple scenarios I could envision with him and what it would take to change the narrative for someone like me at least. I would put more stock into what you think of the contextual factors we actually know about, as opposed to an unknown fluid formula.


But I point to the difference in circumstance. Yes, LeBron created a new super power instead of joining an established core but it was not possible for him to join the Lakers or Celtics. For Durant, it was not possible for him to create a new core that would leap past the talent of Golden State or Cleveland. We don't know if LeBron would have went to Miami over joining the Lakers/Celtics if the opportunity was equal and we don't know if Durant would have formed a new core if their talent would exceed the Cavs/Warriors.

I disagree and so do your Vegas odds. Maybe the confusion stems from my use of the word core and power but KD could have simply stayed put for 1 more year and Vegas would have favored his squad, if you think the odds are gospel then it kind of shows that Cleveland didn't win as impressively as you seem to think. I dont see how you can hold both stances but I look forward to seeing where you draw the line between fanhood and a devotion to an unknown formula.

And to me, KD creating a new power was possible with any of the other teams he gave meetings to, with the exception of the Heat, he did that one out of respect. Look at it this way, if KD joins Boston WITH Horford, you're adding a piece that has in many ways evolved into the ideal bigman alongside a star(in a superior mold to Love and Bosh IMO) to a team that was as successful as Wade's Heat were, only with the advantage of not having to lose any of the contributors to that season. That gets lost, the Heat weren't just a first round exit caliber team, they were a first round exit team that jettisoned pieces to add 2 stars. Without Bron and Bosh, its fair to say those Heat are easily in the lottery, hell they were in the lottery without Bron but with Deng and Whiteside + half a season of Dragic/Bosh and still finished behind a team that missed Paul George.


My entire point is that that's exactly how the entire basketball world looked at it in 2010. I don't understand why some people are having a short memory about that fact.

Oh I get that, Im just saying KD went above and beyond and hindsight will prove me right IMO. When Miami formed, I wasn't lining up to bet on them as quickly as I have for these Dubs and its precisely because of the extenuating circumstances, but thats just me, I'll gladly lose that money tho. KD has to choke on a level we've never seen, like Harrison Barnes level choking, thats how low the standard is.. Bron struggled but Dallas did that to every #1 they faced. Kobe wasn't any different, he and his team put up less of a fight than LeBrons and that was equally unexpected.
Imagine if KD was a free agent right after that Dallas series where the Heat lost and he decided to join them. Wouldn't it be absurd to suggest its the move the Heat needed to win when in reality all they needed was some decent bench pieces?



I think you're simplifying the fit, to me this completely changes the entire dynamic of their team. Draymond Green as we knew him offensively last year will cease to exist and Klay will also lose plenty of touches. The Klay talk about Manu makes me wonder if he would be open to and if they would experiment with turning him into a "6th man" and start Iguodala to help lineup balance and to spread the wealth.

Regardless of what you think Im doing, the degree to which it changes the dynamic of a team pales in comparison to a union of players who have never played an NBA game together, particularly when you know 2 of the players have a greater skillset overlap and one of them is on the decline.


I agree that this squad is more likely to capitalize on their potential where as that Miami squad fell short, but let's see. I didn't mean give LeBron credit to the point of expecting him to win, but I think the Cavs have a punchers chance. What they have in their favor is their direct matchups with each teams best two players. If LeBron outplays Durant, which he's done in the Finals, and Kyrie outplays Curry, which he's done in the Finals, then that upset door can be very much open.

Well no ****, they SHOULD capitalize, it has far more talent at its disposal with no where near the same meshing issues up and down the rest of the roster. Miami was hoping for a healthy Udonis Haslem and a healthy Mike Miller, so yes, unless the Warriors lose guys before the season begins or something, they SHOULD be better off. Especially considering that most of the guys that matter have actually played together and know how to play off other stars. The adjustment period should be far easier. Again, I know we're both hoping for a disaster but we disagree on the likelihood of it.


Cleveland's injuries were far more severe, it's just amazing that they were up 2-1 to begin with. I think it was fair to have GS as favorites before the Durant signing, but I don't see why it would seem shocking to think that Cleveland could beat them again after what we just witnessed.

What we witnessed was a team barely scrape bye with its opposition suffering a suspension and numerous injuries up and down the roster, that same team just added someone who could quite possibly be the best player in the game by this time next year depending on if Bron declines after what is arguably his career best run. When yall had injuries, yes it was 2-1 but they pretty much had you figured by that point and wound up crushing it. Brons performance was unsustainable.


My take as a NY Giants fan, I believed in the team in 2007 and after that I was not remotely surprised when they beat the Pats again in 2011. Once you kill Goliath then the thought of doing it again shouldn't be outlandish. Goliath is coming back bigger and stronger but the Cavs are a proven giant killer.

I have more respect for this than pointing to Vegas measures that disagree. The only thing is, I dont think you killed a giant, I think you finished off a wounded dragon that was foolish enough to think you were done. There are just as many stories where the team avenges defeat after celebrating so early and they just so happened to lose to LeBron as well, only this time, they added a ****ing MVP candidate, lol fml.


Wade was 28 at the start of the 2010-11 season, I just don't see how it's remotely fair to say he was declining. I remember people wondering how he would age because he wasn't the greatest shooter, but that was long term talk not for the upcoming season.

How is it not remotely fair to point at objective measures that do in fact show a decline in production? LOL, what? and yeah man thats what Im talking about, when the 2 first joined and especially once we learned that Haslem and Mike Miller would be done for most of the year, I figured they would have to rely the most on the duo this one year while they replenished the rest of the roster in the coming years, my only hope was that Wade would hold up.


Wade just had a great playoff run and led his inferior team to game 7 in the 2nd round at the tender age of 34. I think he's still doing pretty well. I don't see the need to try and crap on the 3rd best SG of all time.

LOL, recognizing facts is crapping now? He also had the least productive+lowest level of efficiency on both ends since Bron left. He missed the playoffs last year but IIRC he wasn't quite so healthy to close that season but I could be wrong on that one and yes he had the best series in quite some time in his loss vs the Raptors, am I suppose to discount all those facts because you dont think he was declining? Am I suppose to ignore that Wade drastically changed his training regiment to lose the weight as oppose to the Wade that worked with Tim Grover and insisted he bulk up and take games off while Bron carried the load? Again man, context matters more than selective analysis.


If you're going to say that a 28-year old is declining because he's smaller, less durable and as a result is more susceptible to aging, then couldn't I say the same about Stephen Curry? He's 28-years old, smaller and less durable than Wade and who knows if he's going to run into any more ankle problems or other health woes. :shrug:

Because everyone and their moms know shooting is the one skill in the NBA that ages like fine win and that Curry has been relatively preserved for most of his career whereas Wade suffered a career altering knee injury in COLLEGE and has a crash and burn type of game. Cmon man, I man by all means, if Curry winds up having those injuries than I will definitely consider that context into my overall ranking of his career. Im not seeing your point there but I just dont think its fair to say its equally likely, particularly given the fact that Wade was declining before Bron ever showed up whereas Curry was arguably the MVP AND the leagues most improved player.


Again, this seems like more tearing down LeBron's teammates to prop him up. Regardless of the reason, Bosh was excellent and vital for Miami's success. No one in the league had a stretch 5 and nobody has that full time to this day. Bosh developed into the best PnR defending big in the NBA and with that and his shooting was the key cog for their systems on both ends of the court. No other big in the NBA could have done what Bosh did for Miami, give him his credit.

Not sure why you think it seems that way when Bosh himself makes it abundantly clear that he didn't want to play that way to begin with. I dont disregard his contributions, I put them into perspective. He was an all-star player, not sure what more you expect but we both saw how his efficiency on both ends declined since Brons departure.


You're trying to make it sound like LeBron completely carried the Heat, as if he didn't have 3 HOF teammates and other good role players. That was one of the most talented teams of all time, yet you paint a picture as if he wasn't playing with a single All-Star like Dirk in 2011.

If anyone is trying to make it sound like anything its you, look at the silly barometers you use man. 3 HOF teammates? LMFAO, if an old defenseless Ray Allen who shot a high% so long as Bron was around qualifies on the same tier as Wade and Bosh then my respect for your deductive abilities has dwindled. I dont paint a picture but if you're the type of person to think Tyson Chandler wasn't an All-Star player simply because he wasn't one in name during that specific year then its further proving why you dont understand where me and gopher are coming from.

BTW, you're mixing your years here. Bron only had 2 HOF teammates the year he lost to Dirk and his amazing cast. By your stupid barometer we could actually argue that Dirk played with MORE HOF'ers. Kidd and Tyson are going to make it off their championships in both the NBA and FIBA and then if they get leniant they could let Marion in. Dude put up big numbers, won a chip and served his country.


I'm sure some legend praised Dirk after 2011, and if not then shame on them because it was undoubtedly one of the best playoff runs of all time.

LOL, what? Its not even close and certainly no one ever put it in conversation with the Mt.Rushmore guys. Its like you dont understand that we're comparing his run to other champions, where his lack of production and overall dominance pales in comparison to someone like Shaq or Duncan. Just because Dirk beat what was perceived as a superior team doesn't outweigh superior players producing at a higher level and proving why they were or should have been favored.


Yes, plenty of people talked about LeBron dick riding Wade. I was not one of them, but I can't believe that you don't remember that narrative. Even down to that language used on places like this forum lol. Wade was losing in round 1 because he was surrounded by trash while the Heat were focused on maximizing cap space for the 2010 offseason.

I do remember, Im just telling you what I told them. Why would it matter if hes joining Wade when the guy was toiling away in mediocrity for years?


Being that he was Miami's best player in the 2011 Finals, despite "declining", I think it's safe to say that he could have been contending with LeBron the prior years if he had a contending team of his own.
First off, he had the superior matchup and the team was by and large walling off Bron before Wade, me and gopher agree on this. Secondly, Bron was the better player all year and through the Eastern Conference run. One series after the other guy carried such a load doesn't mean would have a better chance at contending without the best player in the game.

I've never seen anyone say its safe to say the team would be better off without having the best player in the game, Im sorry thats just hubris at its finest. And we're not talking about what they could have gotten if Bron wasn't around, Im talking about the quality of the core without the star in place. The Heat without Bron dont win ****, the Dubs without KD are at least in contention.


After all, Dwight Howard beat LeBron and all he had was Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu.

Which is alot more than Bron had in Cleveland. I mean you just listed 2 other All-Star who I think you would admit were better playoff performers as well. Mo Williams was so mediocre that even being on the best team in the league didn't get him an All-Star bid (not that his production warranted it), it wasn't until injuries opened a roster spot and the task fell onto the David Stern (The same Stern that selected Chris Kaman as an All-Star) that Mo was deemed worthy. LMFAO, an injured Cavs team that couldn't handle Dwight 1v1 the way EVERY OTHER PLAYOFF CONTENDER COULD has 2 other All-Stars and you think this helps your point?

Chronz
07-27-2016, 05:37 PM
Sorry bud, but how exactly is it not worse, to build a super team? It's definitely worse to assemble on "all star" team during FA, then to go to a good team as a marquee FA.

You actually think GS is just a good team? Were you saying that when they were winning chips and breaking records or is it only now that your newfound idol has joined that you found this level of humility? LMFAO, must be nice to pick and choose when to act like you're being serious and when you're just joking. With you its gotten to the point where there is no boundary, you are BOTH serious AND joking. The ultimate bet hedger

lol, please
07-30-2016, 02:27 AM
You actually think GS is just a good team? Were you saying that when they were winning chips and breaking records or is it only now that your newfound idol has joined that you found this level of humility? LMFAO, must be nice to pick and choose when to act like you're being serious and when you're just joking. With you its gotten to the point where there is no boundary, you are BOTH serious AND joking. The ultimate bet hedger
Good, great, elite, goat, the point is, a star FA goes to a better situation for several reasons and he is attacked?

I mean, it's madness really. Nothing weak or cowardly or treacherous about it to be frank. I just don't get the hate or criticism at all. Was he supposed to go to the 76ers?

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Saddletramp
07-30-2016, 02:31 AM
good, great, elite, goat, the point is, a star fa goes to a better situation for several reasons and he is attacked?

I mean, it's madness really. Nothing weak or cowardly or treacherous about it to be frank. I just don't get the hate or criticism at all. Was he supposed to go to the 76ers?

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lmbo

lol, please
07-30-2016, 02:35 AM
Great response. I just want to know what he should have done. What move by KD would have been favorable in the eyes of fans across the league? Seriously.

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Saddletramp
07-30-2016, 05:29 AM
Great response. I just want to know what he should have done. What move by KD would have been favorable in the eyes of fans across the league? Seriously.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

Anything but going to the Warriors or the Cavs. Anything. We've been over this before. That's why there's a saying that goes "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." He couldn't beat 'em, so he joined 'em. And that's weak *** ***** ****. The guy is still only mid 20's. He gave up.

HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND????



Edit: He's already been a multi time scoring champ but more importantly an MVP. He's joining a team that already has a championship with that core and just set the regular season win record. How do you not see that it's weak? How much will those titles mean? They took advantage of a once in a generation salary cap loop hole (kudos to them) and lured away one of their chief rivals for years to come.

Let me ask you a question, how would you feel if Durant would've joined the Cavs this year? Would that have been cool? What if the Cavs could sign Durant without giving up Lebron, Kyrie and one of Love or Tristan Thompson. Would you still respect his decision as much? You have two answers here; one makes you a liar, the other makes you a hypocrite. I'm just dying to know your response.

Would that still be "joining a good team<forming a super team"? And I love how you've painted the Warriors as merely "good" and the Cavs as "super". Srsly pthtic, bro.

Chronz
07-30-2016, 01:37 PM
Good, great, elite, goat, the point is, a star FA goes to a better situation for several reasons and he is attacked?
Yes, for the reasons you attack Bron for leaving to Miami, this has topped it. If you're the type to not care then good on you, keep that in mind when you attack others for leaving as well. So long as you're consistent we can simply agree to disagree.


I mean, it's madness really. Nothing weak or cowardly or treacherous about it to be frank. I just don't get the hate or criticism at all. Was he supposed to go to the 76ers?

He can go wherever the **** he wants, people are free to judge his character if he truly wants to stack the deck to such an unprecedented degree, this after leaving a great situation in its own right, he better win the ring otherwise hes a total failure. He could've gone to any number of teams and not gotten this backlash. Hopefully you understand why thats the case.

Scoots
07-30-2016, 02:05 PM
I don't understand the hate for a player moving. I can understand Cavs fans feeling hurt that their hometown boy left them ... but just barely. Free agency has been a fact for a long time now so how can people get upset or surprised when a guy changes teams?

It seems to me to just be people looking for a reason to be pissy.

mgjohnson7851
07-30-2016, 04:57 PM
Everyone already knew that Durant was weak minded when his team fell apart after being up 3-1 against GSW and blowing it. His legacy is shot unless he can salvage it the way LeBron did. If Durant when a championship with GSW, he'll be looked at as a guy who rode on Klay's back to get it. Only incredibly casual basketball fans will think that it doesn't matter how he got it.

I think after this last playoff run, and his departure to GSW, you can honestly say that Durant doesn't have the moxie to be "The Guy" on a team. A lot like Carmello.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-30-2016, 05:27 PM
Casual fans don't get on sports fourms and talk sports all day.

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-30-2016, 05:30 PM
Everyone already knew that Durant was weak minded when his team fell apart after being up 3-1 against GSW and blowing it. His legacy is shot unless he can salvage it the way LeBron did. If Durant when a championship with GSW, he'll be looked at as a guy who rode on Klay's back to get it. Only incredibly casual basketball fans will think that it doesn't matter how he got it.

I think after this last playoff run, and his departure to GSW, you can honestly say that Durant doesn't have the moxie to be "The Guy" on a team. A lot like Carmello.
Replace KD with LeBron or even Melo on the heat they'd be back to back champs, and you'd be talking about LeBron couldn't lead a team

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mgjohnson7851
07-30-2016, 06:26 PM
Replace KD with LeBron or even Melo on the heat they'd be back to back champs, and you'd be talking about LeBron couldn't lead a team

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That's not true at all. The Thunder this year were almost as loaded as any Heat team. What about LeBron this year? You think KD would ever have that type of finals performance? Doubtful considering he's been nothing special in the post season.

Bostonjorge
07-30-2016, 09:54 PM
That's not true at all. The Thunder this year were almost as loaded as any Heat team. What about LeBron this year? You think KD would ever have that type of finals performance? Doubtful considering he's been nothing special in the post season.

I think you had to many to drink already.

Chronz
07-30-2016, 10:14 PM
That's not true at all. The Thunder this year were almost as loaded as any Heat team. What about LeBron this year? You think KD would ever have that type of finals performance? Doubtful considering he's been nothing special in the post season.

In some ways its more talented. Like they have Ibaka+Kanter+Adams as bigs whereas the Heat only had Bosh and Birdman that one year. RWB is EASILY the best sidekick either had and Roberson cant shoot but he can defend. If they had a legit SG it would be without a doubt the more talented core, it just lacked the games best player

Scoots
07-30-2016, 10:31 PM
MOST basketball fans watch their team, like it when they win, don't when they lose, and follow stars. The Warriors have 3 stars now and casual fans find that fun.

People here are understandably MUCH more serious about their fanaticism.

lol, please
07-31-2016, 02:51 AM
I think you had to many to drink already.
X2

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FraziersKnicks
07-31-2016, 04:45 AM
Anything but going to the Warriors or the Cavs. Anything. We've been over this before. That's why there's a saying that goes "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." He couldn't beat 'em, so he joined 'em. And that's weak *** ***** ****. The guy is still only mid 20's. He gave up.

HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND????



Edit: He's already been a multi time scoring champ but more importantly an MVP. He's joining a team that already has a championship with that core and just set the regular season win record. How do you not see that it's weak? How much will those titles mean? They took advantage of a once in a generation salary cap loop hole (kudos to them) and lured away one of their chief rivals for years to come.

Let me ask you a question, how would you feel if Durant would've joined the Cavs this year? Would that have been cool? What if the Cavs could sign Durant without giving up Lebron, Kyrie and one of Love or Tristan Thompson. Would you still respect his decision as much? You have two answers here; one makes you a liar, the other makes you a hypocrite. I'm just dying to know your response.

Would that still be "joining a good team<forming a super team"? And I love how you've painted the Warriors as merely "good" and the Cavs as "super". Srsly pthtic, bro.

You won't get an answer, he'll swerve it.

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 05:44 AM
You won't get an answer, he'll swerve it.

I know. And it's ****ing pathetic. People who say stupid things and continually duck out when grilled should be banned. Trolling at its most awful.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-31-2016, 11:54 AM
As a warrior's fan I've stated this Durants decision was weak/ the easy route.

But I've haven't heard people acknowledge that LeBrBuon james took the easiest path as well.

Kinda sad that you guys just wanna bash the DUBS without any fair assessments. It's all good the keep categorizing all Warrior fans with the likes of Tre and Lol.

I know you're pain. I know you're pain.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 01:31 PM
As a warrior's fan I've stated this Durants decision was weak/ the easy route.

But I've haven't heard people acknowledge that LeBrBuon james took the easiest path as well.

Kinda sad that you guys just wanna bash the DUBS without any fair assessments. It's all good the keep categorizing all Warrior fans with the likes of Tre and Lol.

I know you're pain. I know you're pain.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

We're pain? Hmmmmmph.


Seriously though, that wasn't Lebron's easiest path and we've already been over this. When James joined up with Wade and Bosh they had practically no one else on the team. Spoelstra didn't have a proven system. One injury to any of those three guys and <poof>.

Like has been said repeatedly: forming is harder than joining. And those guys were a SG, a SF and a PF. Lot of overlap. It's not like in GS where one of the top SF (top 2) is joining the MVP (top PG), a top 2-4 SG (who has had the argument that he's the best in the league at his position) and one of the top defensive, big man passing guys in the league (top 1?, 2?, 3?, 4? PF in the game who can guard any position and almost averages a triple double). And Kerr and his system >>>> Spoelstra. No contest. Not to mention a better supporting cast (who I know has taken some hits but a Big 4 plus Iggy and Livingston are better than.......a crumbling Big Z? Carlos Arroyo? Mike Miller was always hurt but even if not, I'd still take Iggy over him.

And the Warriors have already been in place and have gelled well enough to win a title and set the



**** it, keep comparing. Another brick in the wall.

FraziersKnicks
07-31-2016, 01:52 PM
As a warrior's fan I've stated this Durants decision was weak/ the easy route.

But I've haven't heard people acknowledge that LeBrBuon james took the easiest path as well.

Kinda sad that you guys just wanna bash the DUBS without any fair assessments. It's all good the keep categorizing all Warrior fans with the likes of Tre and Lol.

I know you're pain. I know you're pain.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

The equivalent path would've been if LeBron left to join the Celtics and Ray Allen and KG were both 25 and Paul Pierce had just come off back to back MVP's and a 73 win season.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-31-2016, 01:59 PM
The best player in the world joined the best sg in the league. A top 3 pf in the league. Who was going to stop them coming out the east?

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-31-2016, 02:00 PM
Ray Allen, Birdman, UH, Cole.

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HOLD_THIS_L
07-31-2016, 02:00 PM
Tell me who was in a position to stop the Heat out east? I'll wait.

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Scoots
07-31-2016, 02:08 PM
Ray Allen, Birdman, UH, Cole.

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You are over-reaching. Allen, Cole and Birdman were not on the Heat that year.

The Warriors were a better team without KD than the Heat were without LeBron ... don't lie to yourself.

HOLD_THIS_L
07-31-2016, 02:33 PM
You are over-reaching. Allen, Cole and Birdman were not on the Heat that year.

The Warriors were a better team without KD than the Heat were without LeBron ... don't lie to yourself.
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying with the core of the big 3 what team was going to stop them from coming out? The pacers? Where's Hibbert and Lance now? The knicks? The bulls? Answer that for me please.

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Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 07:43 PM
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying with the core of the big 3 what team was going to stop them from coming out? The pacers? Where's Hibbert and Lance now? The knicks? The bulls? Answer that for me please.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

The Celtics were still good. The Pacers weren't awful and before Rose's injury, they could have been huge obstacles.

And Ray/Birdman/Cole? If you don't know what you're talking about, don't start typing. G damn.

Tony_Starks
07-31-2016, 10:02 PM
Has anybody been following team USA and seen the fun these dudes are having on and off the court? These guys are having the time of their life, whatever shock came from KDs decision is over.

You can sit on the couch and be disgruntled about what happened all you want but the bottom line is Lebron set the path to least resistance culture, KD trumped it, and NOBODY gives a damn. People like Larry Bird, MJ, Kobe, hardcore fans that want to see the best beat the best....we are in the minority.

And guess what, GS still isn't guaranteed a chip and Durant won't be the last high profile player to pull a Lebron so you can either enjoy the good basketball that comes out of it or watch hockey.

Chronz
07-31-2016, 10:10 PM
Has anybody been following team USA and seen the fun these dudes are having on and off the court? These guys are having the time of their life, whatever shock came from KDs decision is over.

You can sit on the couch and be disgruntled about what happened all you want but the bottom line is Lebron set the path to least resistance culture, KD trumped it, and NOBODY gives a damn. People like Larry Bird, MJ, Kobe, hardcore fans that want to see the best beat the best....we are in the minority.

And guess what, GS still isn't guaranteed a chip and Durant won't be the last high profile player to pull a Lebron so you can either enjoy the good basketball that comes out of it or watch hockey.

LOL, nobody was expecting team usa to show any animosity, why would you if its suppose to be a group of guys fighting for a common goal? You can point to whatever you want, it wont change whats already happened. I dont agree with your subjective view so plz dont lump us all into your ignorant grouping.

Tony_Starks
07-31-2016, 10:26 PM
As a warrior's fan I've stated this Durants decision was weak/ the easy route.

But I've haven't heard people acknowledge that LeBrBuon james took the easiest path as well.

Kinda sad that you guys just wanna bash the DUBS without any fair assessments. It's all good the keep categorizing all Warrior fans with the likes of Tre and Lol.

I know you're pain. I know you're pain.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

They're not going to acknowledge that because most of them are Lebron Super fans that are still salty about the uproar he created by The Decision spectacle.

They are truly perplexed as to why KDs weak move isn't getting met with the same degree of animosity.

That's something that honestly shouldn't even have to be explained but hey.....

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 10:27 PM
Has anybody been following team USA and seen the fun these dudes are having on and off the court? These guys are having the time of their life, whatever shock came from KDs decision is over.

You can sit on the couch and be disgruntled about what happened all you want but the bottom line is Lebron set the path to least resistance culture, KD trumped it, and NOBODY gives a damn. People like Larry Bird, MJ, Kobe, hardcore fans that want to see the best beat the best....we are in the minority.

And guess what, GS still isn't guaranteed a chip and Durant won't be the last high profile player to pull a Lebron so you can either enjoy the good basketball that comes out of it or watch hockey.

Wasn't Magic going to go back to school if the Lakers didn't get the first pick the year he was drafted?

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 10:38 PM
They're not going to acknowledge that because most of them are Lebron Super fans that are still salty about the uproar he created by The Decision spectacle.

They are truly perplexed as to why KDs weak move isn't getting met with the same degree of animosity.

That's something that honestly shouldn't even have to be explained but hey.....

Here's something for you, when Lebron left a ****** team to join two others and scrubs, he was still the best player in the world and was still (after 7 title-less years because his FO sucked) on the trajectory of being a top guy (1?, 5?, 10?) EVER. KD has been great in his career but he's not on Lebron's level (all time or peak). The only reason some people don't care is because Lebron has leaped over Kobe (get over it already, will ya?) while KD hasn't and probably now won't since he quit on a great team. If the Warriors win 5 in a row and everyone starts saying KD and Steph are all time better than Kobe, you'll be crying that they had to team up with multiple top players.

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 10:48 PM
Great response.

Still waiting for yours.

lol, please
07-31-2016, 10:49 PM
I know. And it's ****ing pathetic. People who say stupid things and continually duck out when grilled should be banned. Trolling at its most awful.

Still waiting for yours.



I have some crow in the oven for you for later tonight, the crow you earned for assuming I wouldn't respond to your post earlier.

So here it is:

I wouldn't have an opinion on it as much because it woulnd't involve my team.

Would I criticize him for the move and call it weak? No, not really. Like I have said before, I don't consider a FA choosing his destination weak, just because that situation happens to be a better one than the one he left.

Would I be upset? Well, I wouldn't be happy that a player we both know I dislike, has even more help on his team, but I wouldn't really let it bother me. It would just give me more fuel to point at the Durant pickup if they even came close to another finals appearance again, which I would not hesitate to do, it's no secret I don't like Lebron, and I will never shy away from saying so. That doesn't mean I am unable to have an unbiased approach to things.

The bottom line is a FA can go wherever he pleases, who are we to say otherwise?

And just because I called the Warriors "good" doesn't mean that I was conceding that Cleveland is/was a better team, I have never accepted that. The best team doesn't always win. This is a fact.

Chronz
07-31-2016, 11:12 PM
Wasn't Magic going to go back to school if the Lakers didn't get the first pick the year he was drafted?

Or Kobe forcing himself into a big market back when that meant something. Or Tmac and Grant Hill talking about hooking up mid season. Or what about MJ refusing the challenge of winning without Scottie? Why do players have to luck/force their way onto a perfect franchise? It makes no sense.

KD dickriding a historic core is something Bron has never done, to assume they are the same because you have an unsubstantiated opinion about something ignores the chasm of a difference between the 2 decisions. I expect more from hardcore fans.

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 11:18 PM
I have some crow in the oven for you for later tonight, the crow you earned for assuming I wouldn't respond to your post earlier.

Thanks for responding. Finally.


So here it is:

I wouldn't have an opinion on it as much because it woulnd't involve my team.

Would I criticize him for the move and call it weak? No, not really. Like I have said before, I don't consider a FA choosing his destination weak, just because that situation happens to be a better one than the one he left.

So why don't you like Lebron? And you e criticized Lebron for leaving and forming a team but given KD a pass for joining a better team. Or as you called them "good".


Would I be upset? Well, I wouldn't be happy that a player we both know I dislike, has even more help on his team, but I wouldn't really let it bother me. It would just give me more fuel to point at the Durant pickup if they even came close to another finals appearance again, which I would not hesitate to do, it's no secret I don't like Lebron, and I will never shy away from saying so. That doesn't mean I am unable to have an unbiased approach to things.

And why don't you like Lebron?


The bottom line is a FA can go wherever he pleases, who are we to say otherwise?

Who's to say we can't criticize them for taking the easiest route? People sure did for you know who.


And just because I called the Warriors "good" doesn't mean that I was conceding that Cleveland is/was a better team, I have never accepted that. The best team doesn't always win. This is a fact.

No, you were just underselling the Warriors instead of saying that they choked. Up 3-1? They choked hard.

Saddletramp
07-31-2016, 11:20 PM
Or Kobe forcing himself into a big market back when that meant something. Or Tmac and Grant Hill talking about hooking up mid season. Or what about MJ refusing the challenge of winning without Scottie? Why do players have to luck/force their way onto a perfect franchise? It makes no sense.

KD dickriding a historic core is something Bron has never done,

Correction: it's something no one has ever done. They set the record after winning the title.


to assume they are the same because you have an unsubstantiated opinion about something ignores the chasm of a difference between the 2 decisions. I expect more from hardcore fans.

I do too. But these guys see this as more of a Lebron bashing opportunity for some reason.

Chronz
07-31-2016, 11:27 PM
I do too. But these guys see this as more of a Lebron bashing opportunity for some reason.
Agreed. Their complaints fall on deaf ears when its from guys like Tony and dubs fans, people who have already admitted to refusing to vote objectively.

HOLD_THIS_L
08-01-2016, 12:30 AM
I have not bashed once. Get it right bub.

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lol, please
08-01-2016, 01:04 AM
Thanks for responding. Finally.



So why don't you like Lebron? And you e criticized Lebron for leaving and forming a team but given KD a pass for joining a better team. Or as you called them "good".



And why don't you like Lebron?



Who's to say we can't criticize them for taking the easiest route? People sure did for you know who.



No, you were just underselling the Warriors instead of saying that they choked. Up 3-1? They choked hard.

I think you already know why I dislike Lebron.

And please don't say "well Durant did the same thing" because you know I don't consider the two situations the same.

Did Durant ever make a promise to his city that he was going to bring a title home and then break it? (Yes he finally came through but that's not the point here).

If he did, then that's news to me, and I would like to see a link as evidence.

But honestly who cares why I dislike the guy? Don't spin this into arguing about my reasoning, that really has nothing to do with the topic or the thread.

Saddletramp
08-01-2016, 02:03 AM
I think you already know why I dislike Lebron.

And please don't say "well Durant did the same thing" because you know I don't consider the two situations the same.

Did Durant ever make a promise to his city that he was going to bring a title home and then break it? (Yes he finally came through but that's not the point here).

If he did, then that's news to me, and I would like to see a link as evidence.

You're still hung up on a guy saying he's going to bring home a title and then he left when his team couldn't get him the help that he needed?


But honestly who cares why I dislike the guy?

Because you keep contradicting yourself. You've already said:


Like I have said before, I don't consider a FA choosing his destination weak, just because that situation happens to be a better one than the one he left....,,,,,The bottom line is a FA can go wherever he pleases, who are we to say otherwise?......

But you don't like Lebron because he left without winning a title that he promised (while I'm sure his team promised him more help......,.that never came). So apparently, you are. Lebron never raped a chick, had drug problems, physically hurt anyone, doesn't have multiple baby mommas, ....... So why don't you like him, again?


Don't spin this into arguing about my reasoning, that really has nothing to do with the topic or the thread.

People's perceptions over players legacies has LITERALLY EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

GoferKing_
08-01-2016, 05:36 AM
lol, please is just too funny.xD

Chronz
08-01-2016, 12:47 PM
KD's already a proven hypocrite/liar, just like Bron, only Bron actually did go back and win his home town the title he promised. Im sure they'll take that over KD hyping up his "trying to beat these powers" campaign only to dick ride a historic core, something no superstar has ever done.

lol, please
08-02-2016, 10:49 PM
People's perceptions over players legacies has LITERALLY EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

Um, it's about Durant's legacy specifically. I haven't contradicted myself once, you quoting something and calling it a contradiction doesn't make it so.

The rest of what you posted isn't worth responding to, I replied in earnest and you keep spinning the same questions back at me. I really don't know what you want me to say at this point, as far as being on topic here.

You keep making both passive and direct attacks or slights my way, for years now, and I just keep turning the other cheek, and defending my position with honesty and facts, and you just keep having somewhat of a passive aggression towards me. I mean, we can just keep going in circles with it, but if you think you are actually going to get some sort of rage-esque reaction out of me, well Saddletramp you should know better by know I am not going to get myself into trouble nor am I someone who gets upset or irritated irl about trivial sports banter, but whatever floats your boat man.

lol, please
08-02-2016, 10:51 PM
KD's already a proven hypocrite/liar, just like Bron, only Bron actually did go back and win his home town the title he promised. Im sure they'll take that over KD hyping up his "trying to beat these powers" campaign only to dick ride a historic core, something no superstar has ever done.

If you are going to call Durant a hypocrite, at least tell us why he is one.

And if you are going to point to a tweet 3 years+ old, well that's just silly. Should you be held accountable for what you said in high school?

Saddletramp
08-03-2016, 12:09 AM
Um, it's about Durant's legacy specifically. I haven't contradicted myself once, you quoting something and calling it a contradiction doesn't make it so.

You've said it doesn't matter why a guy leaves but give it to Lebron from making one "I'll bring a title to Cleveland" comment years and years ago.


The rest of what you posted isn't worth responding to, I replied in earnest and you keep spinning the same questions back at me. I really don't know what you want me to say at this point, as far as being on topic here.

The reasons I keep asking you the same questions is because you're either contradicting yourself, not making any sense, or trolling.


You keep making both passive and direct attacks or slights my way, for years now, and I just keep turning the other cheek, and defending my position with honesty and facts, and you just keep having somewhat of a passive aggression towards me. I mean, we can just keep going in circles with it, but if you think you are actually going to get some sort of rage-esque reaction out of me, well Saddletramp you should know better by know I am not going to get myself into trouble nor am I someone who gets upset or irritated irl about trivial sports banter, but whatever floats your boat man.

Just make rational points and stop trolling. It's really that easy. If that means you stop posting for good because you can't make rational posts or stop trolling, then just quit posting. Again, it's that simple.

Saddletramp
08-03-2016, 12:15 AM
If you are going to call Durant a hypocrite, at least tell us why he is one.

And if you are going to point to a tweet 3 years+ old, well that's just silly. Should you be held accountable for what you said in high school?

First off, KD wasn't in high school. He was already a professional. He either was jealous that other guys could choose their own destiny and he couldn't or he sincerely thought that and then saw how hard it is to win so he changed his tune. Either way, he got busted for saying it. Live with the hypocrisy.

Second off, you're (AGAIN) contradicting yourself. KD gets a pass for something he said but Lebron doesn't? I see that KD isn't the only hypocrite..........

Chronz
08-03-2016, 11:57 AM
If you are going to call Durant a hypocrite, at least tell us why he is one.

And if you are going to point to a tweet 3 years+ old, well that's just silly. Should you be held accountable for what you said in high school?

LMFAO, even you cant be serious. HS? My entire point to you was that we shouldn't hold people accountable for something they are entirely allowed to change their minds on. At least in Brons case he augmented his promise and eventually delivered. Wake me up when KD leaves this unprecedented power and decides he actually wants to test himself again by "competing against these guys"

Tony_Starks
08-03-2016, 12:07 PM
If Larry Bird throws a party Kobe is invited, Lebron gets held up by security in line for hours before he just gives up and leaves, and KD can't even get in the parking lot.

There you have it.

Vee-Rex
08-03-2016, 12:32 PM
And just because I called the Warriors "good" doesn't mean that I was conceding that Cleveland is/was a better team, I have never accepted that. The best team doesn't always win. This is a fact.

Cleveland was the better team. They played 7 games to determine that.

Besides, games 3-7 the Cavs statistically dominated the Warriors and finished the series with an ORTG greater than their average for the 2016 playoffs. When one team statistically dominates the other for 5 out of 7 games (Warriors had the outlier game 4 win despite being worse in every facet of the game except breaking the finals 3-point record), I think it's clear which was the better team.

SteBO
08-03-2016, 12:48 PM
Cleveland was the better team. They played 7 games to determine that.

Besides, games 3-7 the Cavs statistically dominated the Warriors and finished the series with an ORTG greater than their average for the 2016 playoffs. When one team statistically dominates the other for 5 out of 7 games (Warriors had the outlier game 4 win despite being worse in every facet of the game except breaking the finals 3-point record), I think it's clear which was the better team.
I think you both are having different discussions. I might just be playing devils advocate of course, but CLE was the better team in that series. Lol, please seems to believe that GSW was the better team entering the series, but lost to a team that outplayed them.

All I'll say in the context of this thread....assuming CLE vs GSW is a forgone conclusion, the Warriors should beat the Cavs this upcoming season. Anything less is a failure. Cavs are playing with house money imo.

Vee-Rex
08-03-2016, 12:56 PM
I think you both are having different discussions. I might just be playing devils advocate of course, but CLE was the better team in that series. Lol, please seems to believe that GSW was the better team entering the series, but lost to a team that outplayed them.

All I'll say in the context of this thread....assuming CLE vs GSW is a forgone conclusion, the Warriors should beat the Cavs this upcoming season. Anything less is a failure. Cavs are playing with house money imo.

I see. That's more understandable.

I agree with your second bit too. If the Cavs make it to the finals I wouldn't feel bad at all losing to the +Durant Dubs. All the pressure is on GS to win and not need a miracle 3rd quarter from Klay Thompson to do it, heh.

GoferKing_
08-03-2016, 04:06 PM
LOl, please never fails to deliver some hilarious shiet.xD

Chronz
08-03-2016, 04:38 PM
LOl, please never fails to deliver some hilarious shiet.xD

May the based David Lee bless him. I would rather have a hundred lol,pleases than 1 more whatshisface from the Lakers forum that hasn't been around in ages. Not am1oser but his sidekick. Dude took trolling to a level that was absurd, lol,please is more like the guy who pushes the boundary where you dont know if hes serious or trolling you. With that other guy, he was ALWAYS trolling you. Its an art to be in the middle

Saddletramp
08-03-2016, 05:13 PM
May the based David Lee bless him. I would rather have a hundred lol,pleases than 1 more whatshisface from the Lakers forum that hasn't been around in ages. Not am1oser but his sidekick. Dude took trolling to a level that was absurd, lol,please is more like the guy who pushes the boundary where you dont know if hes serious or trolling you. With that other guy, he was ALWAYS trolling you. Its an art to be in the middle

It's easier to put someone on ignore when they're always 100% trolling. But I think lol actually believes some of the things he says. It's ****ing baffling.

kdspurman
08-08-2016, 11:06 AM
this made me lol

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13879445_1196851537040201_2222101309772154930_n.jp g?oh=5013c1e22e9ee19796cae1ea53bc498e&oe=581ED348

Vee-Rex
08-08-2016, 01:24 PM
this made me lol

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13879445_1196851537040201_2222101309772154930_n.jp g?oh=5013c1e22e9ee19796cae1ea53bc498e&oe=581ED348

:laugh2:

Chronz
08-08-2016, 02:07 PM
If Larry Bird throws a party Kobe is invited, Lebron gets held up by security in line for hours before he just gives up and leaves, and KD can't even get in the parking lot.

There you have it.

Depends on where Bird decides to throw the party, Kobe would only force his way into that party once he knew it was in a big market.

Tony_Starks
08-08-2016, 02:29 PM
Depends on where Bird decides to throw the party, Kobe would only force his way into that party once he knew it was in a big market.


Yeah but once he's in he's popping bottles in the VIP section of the hottest club in town. Eminem is performing.

While Bron and KD had to settle for a 18 and over club where the kids are cool with their antics...,

Lil B is performing.

FlashBolt
08-08-2016, 02:55 PM
May the based David Lee bless him. I would rather have a hundred lol,pleases than 1 more whatshisface from the Lakers forum that hasn't been around in ages. Not am1oser but his sidekick. Dude took trolling to a level that was absurd, lol,please is more like the guy who pushes the boundary where you dont know if hes serious or trolling you. With that other guy, he was ALWAYS trolling you. Its an art to be in the middle

I think you might be talking about numba1changsta. That guy was just horrible. I am upset it took that long for PSD moderators to finally put the hammer down on him. On another note, the only good thing about lol, please is he is active and creates discussions (regardless of how silly his responses are). And Tony_Starks, just drop it. LeBron is better than Kobe and that's just a testament to how good Kobe really was that it took LeBron this much to surpass him. Okay? Does that work for you?

Chronz
08-08-2016, 04:09 PM
Yeah but once he's in he's popping bottles in the VIP section of the hottest club in town. Eminem is performing.

While Bron and KD had to settle for a 18 and over club where the kids are cool with their antics...,

Lil B is performing.

Depends on which VIP room you go into. What if Bird has a special room for the guy he himself feels had the greatest playoff run hes ever witnessed? Maybe hes at the top of the party and able to witness both sides from his perspective........

bucketss
08-08-2016, 04:09 PM
i think hes talking about illusionist

Tony_Starks
08-08-2016, 04:25 PM
I think you might be talking about numba1changsta. That guy was just horrible. I am upset it took that long for PSD moderators to finally put the hammer down on him. On another note, the only good thing about lol, please is he is active and creates discussions (regardless of how silly his responses are). And Tony_Starks, just drop it. LeBron is better than Kobe and that's just a testament to how good Kobe really was that it took LeBron this much to surpass him. Okay? Does that work for you?

For the purposes of me and chronz back and forth it wasn't about who's better, it's about his insistence of lumping in what Kobe would've did and why vs what Lebron and KD actually did do.

In his world Bron and KD actually running from teams that played in the Conference Finals is equivalent to Kobe wanting to run from a team that was barely making the playoffs.

I find the comparison unnecessary and preposterous but hey.....

FlashBolt
08-08-2016, 04:36 PM
For the purposes of me and chronz back and forth it wasn't about who's better, it's about his insistence of lumping in what Kobe would've did and why vs what Lebron and KD actually did do.

In his world Bron and KD actually running from teams that played in the Conference Finals is equivalent to Kobe wanting to run from a team that was barely making the playoffs.

I find the comparison unnecessary and preposterous but hey.....

No, I get that. I just think you still have it stuck in your head that Kobe is better and thus, craft your arguments with that already in your head. It's time for you to acknowledge that however they did it, LeBron is better than Kobe is right now. And you can't seriously compare LeBron's situation with Kobe's. One guy had it for seven years while the other had it for two or three. One guy played for Cleveland -- notoriously awful since the Gordon days that was horribly managed while the other played for the most storied franchise under the greatest winner in coach Phil Jackson. I'm not even sure what we're comparing anymore. Durant is by far the weakest of them all.

Tony_Starks
08-08-2016, 04:52 PM
No, I get that. I just think you still have it stuck in your head that Kobe is better and thus, craft your arguments with that already in your head. It's time for you to acknowledge that however they did it, LeBron is better than Kobe is right now. And you can't seriously compare LeBron's situation with Kobe's. One guy had it for seven years while the other had it for two or three. One guy played for Cleveland -- notoriously awful since the Gordon days that was horribly managed while the other played for the most storied franchise under the greatest winner in coach Phil Jackson. I'm not even sure what we're comparing anymore. Durant is by far the weakest of them all.

Well that's oversimplifying it but no need to beat a dead horse.

At the end of the day regardless of how certain fans feel about it, when the run team up movement is mentioned it will focus on two guys...Lebron for starting it and KD for taking it to another level....with KDs move generally agreed on being "the weakest" move of two weak moves.

Their names are attached to that regardless BUT as Lebron showed this Finals if you win in spectacular fashion nobody really cares how you did it.

FlashBolt
08-08-2016, 05:17 PM
Well that's oversimplifying it but no need to beat a dead horse.

At the end of the day regardless of how certain fans feel about it, when the run team up movement is mentioned it will focus on two guys...Lebron for starting it and KD for taking it to another level....with KDs move generally agreed on being "the weakest" move of two weak moves.

Their names are attached to that regardless BUT as Lebron showed this Finals if you win in spectacular fashion nobody really cares how you did it.

LeBron left his team because he was the only help they had. Durant left a team that was five minutes from going to the NBA Finals, lost three in a row, Durant choked hard, and they were favorites to beat the Cavs if they had met in the Finals. You aren't even comparing the same things. LeBron doesn't leave a contending team with another top five player. Durant did. LeBron didn't join a team that had already won a ring and just came off the greatest regular season ever. Durant did. LeBron didn't join the 2x MVP and unanimous MVP. Durant did.